Thank you Don for this gem. As soon as I finished watching this video I got on my surface grinder and gave it a shot at resurfacing a fixture I could only get to .00006 flat. My tolerance on my parts is +.0001 -0.0 so you can imagine some of my parts passed and some were scrapped. I ground my fixture down to .00002" flat and .00003" parallel. I was able to grind all 28 parts at the same time on my fixture and they all passed! Thanks again! You changed the game for me!
I used this tip you explained a while back to do some fixturing for a custom 4th axis indexer with tailstock assembly. The parts came out so flat that a tenths indicator barely trembled. It took time but the end result was perfection. Thanks for all your help!!
Precision grinding has become an after thought in many vocational programs. Those of us who are new to the trade are sure thankful that such an experienced toolmaker like Mr. Bailey is providing the much needed education that seems to be coming more and more harder to find. Thank you Mr. Bailey for taking the time to make your videos. They are completing a part of my machining education that I can no longer acquire in traditional vocational school.
Everyone is screwed when all these guys w all this knowledge pass on, just hopefully there will be enough people who have paid alot of attention to what they have to teach. Thanks for all you share.
2 years later,,,,,Trump is President....There are more jobs for qualified people then there are applicants. A Girl I know is an HR Manager, She asked me if I know any Tool and Die Makers. I said " None that were still alive" She said. that's just great because I need 3. - Isn't it wonderful that the very progressive school teachers convinced the kids that anyone that worked with the tools was a dirt ball and told them to all go to collage and get degrees in in things like urban studies and stay on the dole for years more to get a doctorate in Ebonics? Now we are screwed....After a 5 year T&D apprenticeship it takes 5 more before you are any good.
Hi folks i'm an italian machinist! Thank you Don, nice video and tecnique, i appreciate the explanation, learned a lot! In the shop i work i used to clamp the workpiece with a precision vice. It's safer, and the piece results very flat. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Don Thanks for the videos. I just want to thank you for sharing your talents, skills, and techniques for precision machining. When I started machining 27 years ago some of the veteran machinist would rather take the information they learned through their careers to the grave rather than help somebody. So I just want to thank you for helping future generations of machinist. Todd Frank
a tip from an old hand grinder, when you turn on the spindle its a quick sudden acceleration and if wheel is not real tight it will knock it out of balance, proper way is to hit on and off in a few successions and then let it go to full speed., newer variable speed grinders have a slower start that takes care of that
This was very interesting. I have never used residual magnet before and watching it grind with the heavier sparks on the flip side was a eye opener. I am glad you mentioned safety and the word dangerous. I would only share this with a experienced person at the shop. This video is good though and proper mention of being safe you kindly emphasized well.
Mr don bailey I have worked in job shops for 13 years but only cnc! last 3 running manuals I love your tips! this grinding I might ask the owner about this grinding process before I attempt it ! no balls no babys LOL!!! happy holidays
I love to hear stuff like this from you knowledgeable folks, as I'm pretty new to all of the old woodworking and metal working equipment. I certainly do love it all, and your mention of the safety points of running the machine near the closing of the video is the part I will take to heart as i begin my search for a manual feed surface grinder. Thank You. I'm TopRamen in other forums, where these machines and things are discussed, but I do a lot of my research right here on youtube for learning the nice old Arn.
Hi just want to thank you, I’m from Australia and in my sixties and got trained by post war tradesmen from Germany England and the methods I see you using are very much like I use there is an art that is being lost because all the new guys rely on cnc getting things right and have no idea how to achieve accuracy the old ways where you needed to think. There is a few things I see you do that are slightly different than I do and you would love to see some things that I do, what you just done ai call feathering, defenetly an art that requires using all your senses so keep up the great work , greetings from Australia
Grinding flat. Suburban tool. Don Baily. My old boss from the 80s. You are correct. I have been spinning parts for flatness for 34 years or so. You may wish to plug the holes with a paper product so grit won't get under and chew up your chuck. I do it dry. Finish it whilst the steel or carbide is cold to the touch. I just finished a piece that is a guide post. .0001 limit. .0005 square to the flange. I spun it in a v block. There was a lot of relief around the post toake it easy. I did use the mag for this process.
Hey Don. Very interesting video. Will have to remember this one as I've just purchased a 1959 18" x 6" NB Churchill Hydraulic Surface Grinder. In the process of rewiring it now to bring it up to 2017 standard, still had one of the original contactors in it with the oil filled dash pots. Machine runs well and just needs a good clean up and check over. Having watched your vids has given me a few key tips to look for. Will post a little vid on it when done. Cheers.
I agree about shimming. Its the way I was taught. Another option I've thought about is set the part on three standoffs that are the same height (they can be. lightly bolted on with c/bored holes). Make sure the stand-offs are blocked to prevent movement and just clean up the surface. It is something I will a have to try. When I was re-building spindles I was always able to grind spacers to less than .0001, usually to less than .00005". But I never ground parts right on the magnet. I always ground them on pin or plate type magnetic parallels that were ground in place so I know I' had as flat a surface as the grinder could produce
Very interesting. Never thought a surface grinder would be of much use but after seeing them used I can think of many uses. Thanks for sharing and your time you give to educate use. GW
Hi Don, Great Lessons!!! I have at least 20 maybe 25 hours experiance with my surface grinder. And out of that time I do not think that I have removed any more then 0.500 thousands of an inch and I messed that up. Your lessons are going to help me so much!!!!!! THANKS M.K.S.
Great Video! the only thing I might have done different is plug the holes in the plate to keep any dust from getting under the plate and lifting it. I've been grinding since 1978 and have used this technique often, works great unless your going for a micro finish.
Brings back so many memories, being mentored (... keep trying like dang Yoda in my ear) by 65 year old guy whom taught me tooling. He learned it from Anton Hoffman who had arrived from Germany.....now 25 years later, I’m .... that guy, the gift that keeps giving in a good way !
Great video, makes me wish my boss could see the value in having a functioning surface grinder... ours has been broken for years, motor burned out. I work at a barge pump manufacturing facility and so not much of our work is that critical but it'd be nice to have the ability to get nice flat surfaces from time to time when working on fixing some of the machinery around there. Sorry to ramble on.
Hi don great demo as always. I've just got myself a sagar spindle moulder. And was horrified when it got delivered a few days ago.The cast iron surface was in really bad shape. Completely rusted up. epoxy all over the surface and spray paint primer used for lintels and I beam all round the edge. And what looks like someone used a Stanley blade at some point to cut some meterial on the cast iron top. I've just recently found out with some research that my spindle moulder was made possibly around 1915. But did it make me angry to know how such a beautiful well made machine could he treated in such a way. So after painstakingly cleaning up the top removing all the rust and all the epoxy. it's in a better state but have really no choice but to get the top resurfaced. And possibly made flat. I have a soft spot for vintage machinery and now going to do a full restoration on it. she has been completly been stripped down bolts and all.And going to bring her back to good use. for a 34 inch square spindle moulder she weighs in 600 pounds. I've tried looking for a company in the UK but finding it a nightmare to get someone to take on regrinding the top surface for me. So far I have spent 3 full days just cleaning the top surface and she's looking a bit better but I've just got to get it done. I just don't understand how previous owners can treat vintage machinery in such a disrespectful way and not take care of there machinery. I can clearly see you love your job and must admit you do have some wonderful machinery there. I would be in my eliment working with all those precision made tools & machinery. 👍👍👍
This was a very helpful video. I had a problem with a .125 thick fixture I made for an EDM one time it was 1.75 inches long and .75 tall. I had to dress the wheel back so only .125 would contact the part and use a variable chuck to get this part flat. I have never seen this technique you used on the video. I will now have this in my mind for the future, thank you. I do watch for your videos. I hope you will keep making them.
Just rewatched it. What a work of art. Brilliant skill. That's something you can't teach. Teach the process but not the feel. If I had a t shirt or hat I could wear it here in Louisville KY for you SO YOU COULD GET SOME FREE ADVERTISEMENT. Hint hint Love your videos and appreciate your skill
Hi Don, I'm looking at a surface grinder for my shop. I'm very grateful for your videos they are always informative and a pleasure to watch. Also the criss-cross looks cool. Haters gonna hate!
Don I got another question for you, when you put the part on and could tell it had a high spot in the middle wouldn't you want to flip the part and see if that side was flat before going ahead with grinding?
thanks so much for these videos sir! i am about to go pick up an old late 40's early 50's doall 618 hydraulic. Massive chunk of cast iron but everything works great. Should be a fine addition to my knife shop but only with proper guidance such as this. You keep making the videos and I sure will keep watching. By the by, I need that chuck!
That's crazy I just came across this video I've been grinding about a year now for a company who makes precision thread gauges. I've been doing 2 tenths tolerance stuff for about 6 months as an apprentice, but that's crazy stuff that takes what we call in the UK 'real touch' when you've got that much of a feel for your machine that you can feel the wheel just catching the job before the sparks. That's some skill right there id love to have that kind of touch.
Don, I start clarifying that I do not have much practical experience with a surface grinder and I thank really a lot for your effort in sharing your knowledge with these videos. When I point somebody at your videos, I stress that they should look much more at the concepts you're sharing than not at the final product (and, by the way, thanks for leaving in some screw-ups: as somebody used to say, Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want). Anyhow, one thing that surprised me in this video is that you rested the convex face on the chuck first. I'd have two concerns with that. First, the part would tend to rock while grinding (several others noticed that, likely, the right side of the chuck had more residual magnetism than the left side) and, second, you risk to grind it in a way that will require you take off more material from the other side. Personally, I'd have ground the convex part till I had at least 70% contact, flip over, grind the concave part to finish, flip it over once more and finish the once convex part. This should take care of relieving any possible stress too. Is there any pitfall in my way of thinking, beside I'd have to flip the part one more time? Thanks!
There is an alternate technique for doing this that might interest you. A steel plate is mounted on the grinder with the chuck turned on full power if you a variable persistence chuck. The plate is ground flat and contains a matrix of slots similar to a lapping plate. The part is simply moved around on the plate without any errors introduced by the ways of the grinder. The processes is called spot grinding. Start with concave side down...if it rocks, build up one spot with magic marker so it rests initially on three points. If the part is thin, fashion a cage that surrounds the part from MDF or something similar to keep your fingers away from the action.
Very interesting process but it seems to my inexperienced (at least in this area; I only have a couple hours on my grinder) mind it seems like this is contrary to the theory of the wheel wearing in one direction and making it all the way across the part without wearing all the way across the width of the wheel. I suppose the wheel may be wearing from both edges toward the center? And with such light passes it might not matter, as long as the wheel selection was appropriate. Any thoughts on the subject? Anything to be concerned about in that regard? Thanks as always for all the free training! I hope to someday purchase some of your incredible work holding tools to repay you. :)
I tried doing this on some hardened bushings that came with replacement lawnmower wheels, meant to be spacers for the axle. They are hardened at least to 60 rockwell, and by criss cross grinding them no indicator of mine can read any flatness deviations. It's literally in the millionths, and I use them all the time for inspection and measuring jobs. They even wring together nicely.
That's awesome. 1st. Not wanting to be the "hey your wrong" guy, but working in millionths I had to grind within 50 millionth before lap on Pratt & Whit chrome plated seal plates. These were circular rings and no reciprocating grinder was going to do the job as feeding with reciprocation from first "scratch" to the other side generates an increased heat causing a "potato chip" distortion which is most disadvantageous in the end for lapping. I got the company to invest in a "Heald" rotary grinder and still ended up concave but the uniform flatness was closer for lapping too within .000020 on the optical flats and monochrome light with a finish of 5 micro after polish
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the part only grinds on the left side and then you rotate the part 180 degrees and it still only grinds on the left side (like in this video), doesn't that mean the magnetic bed and machine's linear ways are not parallel?
+Justin Huang You are correct, to grind heavy on one side when rotating a part would indicate the magnetic bed surface is out of parallel to the plane of travel.Higher on the left creating the heavier spark.
If the part has a high spot in the middle then rotating doesn't seem like it would work. Every time the part is rotated it is still free to rock back and forth slightly.
great tips and tricks! love learning from the old school. just started working with the surface grinder in machinists school. safety idea I thought up - tell me what you guys think - I always bring the part off to the to spark side while I am doing ANYTHING with the part especially if the wheel is STILL SPINNING. this means if your hand or part touches the wheel it will push it away rather than pull it in. same with my first grind across the part - I always feed in from the spark side - keeps the wheel from "climbing" up over the part if I'm taking too much off at once --- most likely because my part is far from flat, but could also be that I came down too far on my first pass. what do you think? better safer than sorry - you can check your work off either side of a spinning grinder wheel - I say wheel that part over to the side that won't pull your hand or your part in. thanks!
I would turn the mag on, feed down .001, grind across the part, mag off, rotate 120 deg, mag on, grind across it again with no down feed, repeat. Really made it sparkle. We had one Parker with a rotary table. I would center the wheel on the part, mag on, and just grind back and forth rotating the chuck by hand. I could Flower in a gage in no time. The trouble doing this kind of work is, if your hands aren't moving, you are not working.
Excellent Trick, Thanks! I thought that I've seen it all........ but not rotating the part on the chuck. Why do you always start with a climb cut? Does it make a difference?
My guess is the part shown in the demo was ground first on the concave side, then the convex. Would it make sense to look which way it is cupped, then grind first the convex? Would it make sense to stick a shallow piece of wood onto the platten with double-sided tape to secure against slippage?
the lack of flatness of wood would cause this to be useless. Wood is too soft to hold a consistent thickness as well. If one side is ground crooked or lop sided....then the other side will hit the grinding wheel lop sided when the work piece is flipped over to be ground on the other side. You would be constantly fighting the un-levelness of the wood as opposed to the grinding wheels plane of motion
So an older toolmaker I'm working with tells me the story of a job interview . The interviewer asks ' can you work to .005 of an inch . ' Of course"can you work to .001's of an inch . " of course . " can you work to one ten thousandths of an inch ? " ,,, " yes ' ... "can you work to half a tenth ? do you know what half a tenth is ? " so now the toolmaker knows he is dealing with a knuckle head and wouldn't want to work there anyway . " Yes " he answers to the half a tenth question . " what is it ? " toolmaker answers " kinda like a lean-to ".... true story . This was in 1979 . At that time i was in the trade 6 years , still at it . At one place in years 2000 to 2003 i was using three wet grinders at a time grinding punch holders, strippers and die plate section for large progressive dies . I was feeding 4 to 5 W.E.D.M machines running 2 sometimes 3 shifts . I once did some quick calculations and can safely say the I was grinding off over 200 lbs of steel per year . A2, D2 and CPM . Oh and I also did much of the heat treat for those plates . I already knew how to get large plates flat but after a steady diet of grinding for 9 months straight I thought to myself ' I got this knocked up and don't think I can get any faster or better " . After 2 years I realized that I was wrong and was still teaching myself new methods .
You'd think by spinning it you'd risk getting contaminates under it, but you clearly shows this works. Maybe add a good vacuum system to draw away dust.
Hugh Jafro As long as there are no contaminants under the part when place it on the chuck (slide, never sit) you have nothing to worry about. The part is basically wiping the magnet clean as you turn it.
Also have to keep the table completely clean or you will measure 'dust' or grind on 'dust.' That definitely works for getting parts flat. I guess I don't care for that grind pattern, but great tips! Sometimes you just have get parts out!
Love the videos they are very informative if I may ask a question why criss cross instead of going side to side up and down? Is it because of distortion by the magnet?
+wilkoslavakia magnetic distortion is slightly the issue but the big idea is to use the same part of the chuck the whole time eliminating any height variance on the chuck itself as a potential source of height difference. by rotating the part you use the same part of the chuck over and over thus increasing consistency.
Also on the first grind you take where the sparks are on the left of the grinder and you are spinning the workpiece, you have effectively made an extremely obtuse cone correct? Theoretically. The center will be higher than the outside, provided it is rotated on a general axis.
Hey Don, Great video! However, would this same technique work on smaller parts? Say, 2" or smaller? I ask because the residual magnetism of the chuck doesn't seem to me be quite that *strong* and I don't know if it could be trusted for smaller parts. What is your experience with that?
Thank you for sharing this technique. A couple of questions: Does "residual" work as well with a permanent magnet chuck? What kind of stone do you use for stoning the surfaces? Thanks again.
Richard Newman RichardYes, you can use this technique with a permanent magnetic chuck. Please be very careful.The stones we use here are India Files Knife fine stones.
Don, I am a beginner at grinding. I have a ring that is 5.8mm ±.1mm thick and has to be .005mm parallel. The part is 150 in Ø on OD & with a inside bore 112.4mm. The best i can get is .017mm parallel. I did everything that your video shows. Do you have any advise you could give me?
Don, I came back and watched this one again.... Could you design a small rotary table and incorporate a magnetic or vacuum chuck to the top of it? The wires or hose would need to follow the rotation 180 degrees? Such a device would be handy for small and or thin material grinding safely? Although it was difficult to setup, I used an automotive type flywheel grinder with coolant to square up odd shaped tractor parts before. It scares to me to watch parts flying across the shop!
Don there is no way words can express my gratitude to you for you great videos thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us all thank you and for your helper sidekick he reminds me of the hippies out of the sixties I bet he carries zig zag and a bong just kidding
So I guess by not using the cross feed you eliminate any issue with it not feeding perfectly flat across? The pattern resembles a blanchard ground surface. Cool tip!
hi ..thats a good trick to get the part flat but after its flat i would just grind it with the magnet on full power in the normal way to get rid of the criss cross patterns...customers won't like that look..thanks
Would it be possible to have a locating key in the base and the part? That way the part won't throw so easily. But as you point out, light grind and multiple passes wins.
Yes Don, Things can go wrong at times. About 35 years ago, I sent most of a 20”x4”x12” wheel down an aisle that was uninhabited at the moment. A large piece of D2 slipped on an angle plate. Fortunately the controls on that big Thompson grinder force you to remain upwind. Another thing that people would do that creeped me out, was to walk up on the left side of the grinder and start to bend over for a better view. I gave several sermons about catching steel parts and pieces of a broken wheel. Your Reid grinder is one of the classic American Beauties.
It also prevents the part from warping due to clamping force. Internal stresses in the steel can be a huge factor when you are trying to flatten to tenths
Instead of using residual magnetism, if you use two or three magnet blocks and put them under your part and it’s going to reduce the magnetism and will not pull thin parts down.
Why don't you use the hydraulics for the table movement rather than turning the handle by hand? I have been grinding for just over 40 years and I just use plasticine to hold the job down and I could get that plate to better than 0.0001" flat and parallel due to how thick it is. Thinner plates are a little bit more of a challenge but plates of that thickness are easy due to them not being effected by heat as much but then again I always use coolant.
+dikkybee It’s not a hydraulic machine, it’s a hand machine. We have removed any air in the machine by moving the part, not the machine. Your method is a good way as well, this is just how I prefer to do it.
Always bring the rotating wheel down center over the single point dresser. The spindle was turned off after dressing and on again to grind plate, you just lost you wheel true-ness. Spinning the plate on the mag chuck without the magnet being on, 1 is dangerous and 2 you risk swarf getting under your plate and lifting it. I've been a Toolmaker for many years. Flatness can be .00001" or less if done correctly
Fischer977 Don mentions the disclaimer in the vid. IMO, you need a part that has enough mass, so this gets more dangerous the lighter the part. You're basically relying on friction and a little residual magnetism. All the laws of physics still apply. ;)
+FirstEliminator I should clarify my original question by specifying while the convex side of the warped part was on the chuck more sparks were coming from the left side of the part because it was higher. It seemed peculiar that the sparks were continuously coming off the left side of the part even though it was being spun around. This makes it look like there may have been more residual magnetism holding down the right side of the part and lifting the left side. I don't know what's inside of the magnetic chuck, is this possible?
I need some form of helper to come sit next to me every time I watch videos with Imperial units... :) How can "50 millionths" almost be the same as "7 tenths"? - It's madness. MADNESS...
Well Don; This opens up another can of worms. My electro-magnetic chuck is variable, and has residual as well. I assume that when in residual, magnetic distortion is at it's minimum. But that has to be balanced against safely holding the part. Off in the middle ground, I supp0ose we are lookiing at the various settings of the mag chuck. Maybe this makes sense quickly?? Thanjks yet again!!! Mark
but it many cases its not practical to do. I used to have to grind hardened ejector and retainer thin plates that were less than 3/8ths thick but a couple of feet wide. If you put the plate on mag parallels at the four corners you can grind them flat to millionths. At first thought a person pictures the wheel forcing the middle of the plate down and the system at first seems unbelievable but it does in fact work. The plate in the video is very small and thick. In a very nasty situation with thin and huge plates--the system shown cannot be used in real life needing to get things done in record time or else lose the job.
but using this method you first indicate the plate on the surface plate and shim the 2 corners that stick up to produce the first surface. All work and flips are done on the mag parralells--at no time is it ever placed flat on the chuck residual or not.
Thank you Don for this gem. As soon as I finished watching this video I got on my surface grinder and gave it a shot at resurfacing a fixture I could only get to .00006 flat. My tolerance on my parts is +.0001 -0.0 so you can imagine some of my parts passed and some were scrapped. I ground my fixture down to .00002" flat and .00003" parallel. I was able to grind all 28 parts at the same time on my fixture and they all passed! Thanks again! You changed the game for me!
Don, I've never even seen a surface grinder, let alone seen one used, that was magnificently done, thank you
I used this tip you explained a while back to do some fixturing for a custom 4th axis indexer with tailstock assembly. The parts came out so flat that a tenths indicator barely trembled. It took time but the end result was perfection. Thanks for all your help!!
Awesome, thank you for sharing.
Precision grinding has become an after thought in many vocational programs. Those of us who are new to the trade are sure thankful that such an experienced toolmaker like Mr. Bailey is providing the much needed education that seems to be coming more and more harder to find. Thank you Mr. Bailey for taking the time to make your videos. They are completing a part of my machining education that I can no longer acquire in traditional vocational school.
I've watched you over and over, thanks for everything. my knowledge has increased.
Everyone is screwed when all these guys w all this knowledge pass on, just hopefully there will be enough people who have paid alot of attention to what they have to teach. Thanks for all you share.
2 years later,,,,,Trump is President....There are more jobs for qualified people then there are applicants. A Girl I know is an HR Manager, She asked me if I know any Tool and Die Makers. I said " None that were still alive" She said. that's just great because I need 3. - Isn't it wonderful that the very progressive school teachers convinced the kids that anyone that worked with the tools was a dirt ball and told them to all go to collage and get degrees in in things like urban studies and stay on the dole for years more to get a doctorate in Ebonics? Now we are screwed....After a 5 year T&D apprenticeship it takes 5 more before you are any good.
Hi folks i'm an italian machinist! Thank you Don, nice video and tecnique, i appreciate the explanation, learned a lot! In the shop i work i used to clamp the workpiece with a precision vice. It's safer, and the piece results very flat. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Don
Thanks for the videos.
I just want to thank you for sharing your talents, skills, and techniques for precision machining.
When I started machining 27 years ago some of the veteran machinist would rather take the information they learned through their careers to the grave rather than help somebody.
So I just want to thank you for helping future generations of machinist.
Todd Frank
a tip from an old hand grinder, when you turn on the spindle its a quick sudden acceleration and if wheel is not real tight it will knock it out of balance, proper way is to hit on and off in a few successions and then let it go to full speed., newer variable speed grinders have a slower start that takes care of that
Thanks Don, good lesson. I have 25 years as a machinist and I learned from this video.Regards Lou
Louis Roy That's great Louis.That's what we like to hear.
This was very interesting. I have never used residual magnet before and watching it grind with the heavier sparks on the flip side was a eye opener. I am glad you mentioned safety and the word dangerous. I would only share this with a experienced person at the shop. This video is good though and proper mention of being safe you kindly emphasized well.
Mr don bailey I have worked in job shops for 13 years but only cnc! last 3 running manuals I love your tips! this grinding I might ask the owner about this grinding process before I attempt it ! no balls no babys LOL!!! happy holidays
Ever since i watched this video i grind a criss cross every chance i can. Works wonder and looks amazing! Thank you so much! Keep up the good work.
You're welcome! Glad I could help.
I am amazed that the dust thrown from wheel isn’t affecting the piece as you turn it . Cool pattern too!
I love to hear stuff like this from you knowledgeable folks, as I'm pretty new to all of the old woodworking and metal working equipment. I certainly do love it all, and your mention of the safety points of running the machine near the closing of the video is the part I will take to heart as i begin my search for a manual feed surface grinder.
Thank You.
I'm TopRamen in other forums, where these machines and things are discussed, but I do a lot of my research right here on youtube for learning the nice old Arn.
Hi just want to thank you, I’m from Australia and in my sixties and got trained by post war tradesmen from Germany England and the methods I see you using are very much like I use there is an art that is being lost because all the new guys rely on cnc getting things right and have no idea how to achieve accuracy the old ways where you needed to think. There is a few things I see you do that are slightly different than I do and you would love to see some things that I do, what you just done ai call feathering, defenetly an art that requires using all your senses so keep up the great work , greetings from Australia
Grinding flat. Suburban tool. Don Baily. My old boss from the 80s.
You are correct. I have been spinning parts for flatness for 34 years or so. You may wish to plug the holes with a paper product so grit won't get under and chew up your chuck. I do it dry. Finish it whilst the steel or carbide is cold to the touch. I just finished a piece that is a guide post. .0001 limit. .0005 square to the flange. I spun it in a v block. There was a lot of relief around the post toake it easy. I did use the mag for this process.
Hey Don. Very interesting video. Will have to remember this one as I've just purchased a 1959 18" x 6" NB Churchill Hydraulic Surface Grinder. In the process of rewiring it now to bring it up to 2017 standard, still had one of the original contactors in it with the oil filled dash pots. Machine runs well and just needs a good clean up and check over. Having watched your vids has given me a few key tips to look for. Will post a little vid on it when done. Cheers.
I agree about shimming. Its the way I was taught. Another option I've thought about is set the part on three standoffs that are the same height (they can be. lightly bolted on with c/bored holes). Make sure the stand-offs are blocked to prevent movement and just clean up the surface. It is something I will a have to try. When I was re-building spindles I was always able to grind spacers to less than .0001, usually to less than .00005". But I never ground parts right on the magnet. I always ground them on pin or plate type magnetic parallels that were ground in place so I know I' had as flat a surface as the grinder could produce
Thanks for sharing, and thanks again for watching!
Very interesting. Never thought a surface grinder would be of much use but after seeing them used I can think of many uses. Thanks for sharing and your time you give to educate use. GW
You're welcome, glad you were able to take something away from it. Thank you for watching.
Hi Don, Great Lessons!!! I have at least 20 maybe 25 hours experiance with my surface grinder. And out of that time I do not think that I have removed any more then 0.500 thousands of an inch and I messed that up. Your lessons are going to help me so much!!!!!! THANKS M.K.S.
Great Video! the only thing I might have done different is plug the holes in the plate to keep any dust from getting under the plate and lifting it. I've been grinding since 1978 and have used this technique often, works great unless your going for a micro finish.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
Brings back so many memories, being mentored (... keep trying like dang Yoda in my ear) by 65 year old guy whom taught me tooling. He learned it from Anton Hoffman who had arrived from Germany.....now 25 years later, I’m .... that guy, the gift that keeps giving in a good way !
Got that right! Share everything you can, it's valuable information that people need to know. As always, thanks again for watching!
And now you can name your own price.
Sir !!
You can change an amateur artisan... into a GOLDMINE !!
YOUR MEEKNESS IS EPIC !!
TYVM.
I THANK YOU, AND GOD,... FOR FINDING THIS CHANNEL !!
Great video, makes me wish my boss could see the value in having a functioning surface grinder... ours has been broken for years, motor burned out. I work at a barge pump manufacturing facility and so not much of our work is that critical but it'd be nice to have the ability to get nice flat surfaces from time to time when working on fixing some of the machinery around there. Sorry to ramble on.
Hi don great demo as always. I've just got myself a sagar spindle moulder. And was horrified when it got delivered a few days ago.The cast iron surface was in really bad shape. Completely rusted up. epoxy all over the surface and spray paint primer used for lintels and I beam all round the edge. And what looks like someone used a Stanley blade at some point to cut some meterial on the cast iron top. I've just recently found out with some research that my spindle moulder was made possibly around 1915. But did it make me angry to know how such a beautiful well made machine could he treated in such a way. So after painstakingly cleaning up the top removing all the rust and all the epoxy. it's in a better state but have really no choice but to get the top resurfaced. And possibly made flat. I have a soft spot for vintage machinery and now going to do a full restoration on it. she has been completly been stripped down bolts and all.And going to bring her back to good use. for a 34 inch square spindle moulder she weighs in 600 pounds. I've tried looking for a company in the UK but finding it a nightmare to get someone to take on regrinding the top surface for me. So far I have spent 3 full days just cleaning the top surface and she's looking a bit better but I've just got to get it done. I just don't understand how previous owners can treat vintage machinery in such a disrespectful way and not take care of there machinery. I can clearly see you love your job and must admit you do have some wonderful machinery there. I would be in my eliment working with all those precision made tools & machinery. 👍👍👍
This was a very helpful video. I had a problem with a .125 thick fixture I made for an EDM one time it was 1.75 inches long and .75 tall. I had to dress the wheel back so only .125 would contact the part and use a variable chuck to get this part flat. I have never seen this technique you used on the video. I will now have this in my mind for the future, thank you. I do watch for your videos. I hope you will keep making them.
James Hertzog We are trying to make a new video every week. Stay tuned
Just rewatched it. What a work of art. Brilliant skill. That's something you can't teach. Teach the process but not the feel. If I had a t shirt or hat I could wear it here in Louisville KY for you SO YOU COULD GET SOME FREE ADVERTISEMENT. Hint hint Love your videos and appreciate your skill
Hi Don, I'm looking at a surface grinder for my shop. I'm very grateful for your videos they are always informative and a pleasure to watch. Also the criss-cross looks cool. Haters gonna hate!
Don I got another question for you, when you put the part on and could tell it had a high spot in the middle wouldn't you want to flip the part and see if that side was flat before going ahead with grinding?
thanks so much for these videos sir! i am about to go pick up an old late 40's early 50's doall 618 hydraulic. Massive chunk of cast iron but everything works great. Should be a fine addition to my knife shop but only with proper guidance such as this.
You keep making the videos and I sure will keep watching. By the by, I need that chuck!
That's crazy I just came across this video I've been grinding about a year now for a company who makes precision thread gauges. I've been doing 2 tenths tolerance stuff for about 6 months as an apprentice, but that's crazy stuff that takes what we call in the UK 'real touch' when you've got that much of a feel for your machine that you can feel the wheel just catching the job before the sparks. That's some skill right there id love to have that kind of touch.
keep at it you will develop that touch by time
Don, I start clarifying that I do not have much practical experience
with a surface grinder and I thank really a lot for your effort in
sharing your knowledge with these videos. When I point somebody at your
videos, I stress that they should look much more at the concepts you're
sharing than not at the final product (and, by the way, thanks for
leaving in some screw-ups: as somebody used to say, Experience is what
you get when you don't get what you want).
Anyhow, one thing that surprised me in this video is that you rested the convex face on the chuck first. I'd have two concerns with that. First, the part would tend to rock while grinding (several others noticed that, likely, the right side of the chuck had more residual magnetism than the left side) and, second, you risk to grind it in a way that will require you take off more material from the other side.
Personally, I'd have ground the convex part till I had at least 70% contact, flip over, grind the concave part to finish, flip it over once more and finish the once convex part. This should take care of relieving any possible stress too.
Is there any pitfall in my way of thinking, beside I'd have to flip the part one more time?
Thanks!
There is an alternate technique for doing this that might interest you. A steel plate is mounted on the grinder with the chuck turned on full power if you a variable persistence chuck. The plate is ground flat and contains a matrix of slots similar to a lapping plate. The part is simply moved around on the plate without any errors introduced by the ways of the grinder. The processes is called spot grinding. Start with concave side down...if it rocks, build up one spot with magic marker so it rests initially on three points. If the part is thin, fashion a cage that surrounds the part from MDF or something similar to keep your fingers away from the action.
Very interesting process but it seems to my inexperienced (at least in this area; I only have a couple hours on my grinder) mind it seems like this is contrary to the theory of the wheel wearing in one direction and making it all the way across the part without wearing all the way across the width of the wheel. I suppose the wheel may be wearing from both edges toward the center? And with such light passes it might not matter, as long as the wheel selection was appropriate.
Any thoughts on the subject? Anything to be concerned about in that regard? Thanks as always for all the free training! I hope to someday purchase some of your incredible work holding tools to repay you. :)
I tried doing this on some hardened bushings that came with replacement lawnmower wheels, meant to be spacers for the axle. They are hardened at least to 60 rockwell, and by criss cross grinding them no indicator of mine can read any flatness deviations. It's literally in the millionths, and I use them all the time for inspection and measuring jobs. They even wring together nicely.
That's awesome. 1st. Not wanting to be the "hey your wrong" guy, but working in millionths I had to grind within 50 millionth before lap on Pratt & Whit chrome plated seal plates. These were circular rings and no reciprocating grinder was going to do the job as feeding with reciprocation from first "scratch" to the other side generates an increased heat causing a "potato chip" distortion which is most disadvantageous in the end for lapping. I got the company to invest in a "Heald" rotary grinder and still ended up concave but the uniform flatness was closer for lapping too within .000020 on the optical flats and monochrome light with a finish of 5 micro after polish
ps. job sucked lol. I'd rather have at least a little fon machining and don't need that kind of challenge ;-)
Really neat. It's amazing how close you can get it on feel alone.
Great show, like the details and ideas
love the video, and as a beginner, I appreciate the warnings
I had a great weekend, thanks for asking!!!
Thank you for doing these videos!
They're very informative!
Thanks for watching!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the part only grinds on the left side and then you rotate the part 180 degrees and it still only grinds on the left side (like in this video), doesn't that mean the magnetic bed and machine's linear ways are not parallel?
+Justin Huang You are correct, to grind heavy on one side when rotating a part would indicate the magnetic bed surface is out of parallel to the plane of travel.Higher on the left creating the heavier spark.
My thought too.
If the part has a high spot in the middle then rotating doesn't seem like it would work. Every time the part is rotated it is still free to rock back and forth slightly.
great tips and tricks! love learning from the old school. just started working with the surface grinder in machinists school. safety idea I thought up - tell me what you guys think - I always bring the part off to the to spark side while I am doing ANYTHING with the part especially if the wheel is STILL SPINNING. this means if your hand or part touches the wheel it will push it away rather than pull it in. same with my first grind across the part - I always feed in from the spark side - keeps the wheel from "climbing" up over the part if I'm taking too much off at once --- most likely because my part is far from flat, but could also be that I came down too far on my first pass.
what do you think? better safer than sorry - you can check your work off either side of a spinning grinder wheel - I say wheel that part over to the side that won't pull your hand or your part in. thanks!
Watching a master. Really great video
I would turn the mag on, feed down .001, grind across the part, mag off, rotate 120 deg, mag on, grind across it again with no down feed, repeat. Really made it sparkle. We had one Parker with a rotary table. I would center the wheel on the part, mag on, and just grind back and forth rotating the chuck by hand. I could Flower in a gage in no time. The trouble doing this kind of work is, if your hands aren't moving, you are not working.
Looks to me that your mag plate is a little higher on the left side.
Excellent Trick, Thanks! I thought that I've seen it all........ but not rotating the part on the chuck.
Why do you always start with a climb cut? Does it make a difference?
Thank you for all your effort..
My guess is the part shown in the demo was ground first on the concave side, then the convex. Would it make sense to look which way it is cupped, then grind first the convex? Would it make sense to stick a shallow piece of wood onto the platten with double-sided tape to secure against slippage?
the lack of flatness of wood would cause this to be useless. Wood is too soft to hold a consistent thickness as well. If one side is ground crooked or lop sided....then the other side will hit the grinding wheel lop sided when the work piece is flipped over to be ground on the other side. You would be constantly fighting the un-levelness of the wood as opposed to the grinding wheels plane of motion
I think he meant to use the wood piece as a stop - not the base.
So an older toolmaker I'm working with tells me the story of a job interview . The interviewer asks ' can you work to .005 of an inch . ' Of course"can you work to .001's of an inch . " of course . " can you work to one ten thousandths of an inch ? " ,,, " yes ' ... "can you work to half a tenth ? do you know what half a tenth is ? " so now the toolmaker knows he is dealing with a knuckle head and wouldn't want to work there anyway . " Yes " he answers to the half a tenth question . " what is it ? " toolmaker answers " kinda like a lean-to ".... true story . This was in 1979 . At that time i was in the trade 6 years , still at it . At one place in years 2000 to 2003 i was using three wet grinders at a time grinding punch holders, strippers and die plate section for large progressive dies . I was feeding 4 to 5 W.E.D.M machines running 2 sometimes 3 shifts . I once did some quick calculations and can safely say the I was grinding off over 200 lbs of steel per year . A2, D2 and CPM . Oh and I also did much of the heat treat for those plates . I already knew how to get large plates flat but after a steady diet of grinding for 9 months straight I thought to myself ' I got this knocked up and don't think I can get any faster or better " . After 2 years I realized that I was wrong and was still teaching myself new methods .
You'd think by spinning it you'd risk getting contaminates under it, but you clearly shows this works. Maybe add a good vacuum system to draw away dust.
Hugh Jafro As long as there are no contaminants under the part when place it on the chuck (slide, never sit) you have nothing to worry about. The part is basically wiping the magnet clean as you turn it.
SLIDE ! (not lift.)
Also have to keep the table completely clean or you will measure 'dust' or grind on 'dust.' That definitely works for getting parts flat. I guess I don't care for that grind pattern, but great tips! Sometimes you just have get parts out!
A good teacher, thanks!
Just found your channel and subscribed. Nice work.
Welcome aboard!
Does the corse dress of the wheel diminish surface finishes? Back I my apprenticeship turning the wheel off after you dress it wasn't aloud.
I love watching this guy.
Love the videos they are very informative if I may ask a question why criss cross instead of going side to side up and down? Is it because of distortion by the magnet?
wilkoslavakia This technique removes the variable of any slop in the machine. You move the part , not the machine.
+wilkoslavakia magnetic distortion is slightly the issue but the big idea is to use the same part of the chuck the whole time eliminating any height variance on the chuck itself as a potential source of height difference. by rotating the part you use the same part of the chuck over and over thus increasing consistency.
Don't want to lose no limbs. Thanks for the insight.
Also on the first grind you take where the sparks are on the left of the grinder and you are spinning the workpiece, you have effectively made an extremely obtuse cone correct? Theoretically. The center will be higher than the outside, provided it is rotated on a general axis.
Hey Don,
Great video! However, would this same technique work on smaller parts? Say, 2" or smaller?
I ask because the residual magnetism of the chuck doesn't seem to me be quite that *strong* and I don't know if it could be trusted for smaller parts. What is your experience with that?
Good question. Yes, this same technique will work on smaller parts, but you have to be extremely careful.
That flat granite top is legendary.
Certainly is my friend.
Thank you for sharing this technique. A couple of questions:
Does "residual" work as well with a permanent magnet chuck?
What kind of stone do you use for stoning the surfaces?
Thanks again.
Richard Newman RichardYes, you can use this technique with a permanent magnetic chuck. Please be very careful.The stones we use here are India Files Knife fine stones.
Don, I am a beginner at grinding.
I have a ring that is 5.8mm ±.1mm thick and has to be .005mm parallel. The part is 150 in Ø on OD & with a inside bore 112.4mm. The best i can get is .017mm parallel. I did everything that your video shows. Do you have any advise you could give me?
Don, I came back and watched this one again.... Could you design a small rotary table and incorporate a magnetic or vacuum chuck to the top of it? The wires or hose would need to follow the rotation 180 degrees? Such a device would be handy for small and or thin material grinding safely? Although it was difficult to setup, I used an automotive type flywheel grinder with coolant to square up odd shaped tractor parts before. It scares to me to watch parts flying across the shop!
do you used the magnet on when you are doing this operation?
Don there is no way words can express my gratitude to you for you great videos thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us all thank you and for your helper sidekick he reminds me of the hippies out of the sixties I bet he carries zig zag and a bong just kidding
So I guess by not using the cross feed you eliminate any issue with it not feeding perfectly flat across? The pattern resembles a blanchard ground surface. Cool tip!
Essentially you are blanchard grinding it right? Except with the wheel perpendicular instead of parallel (axial)
could you use oil or water to increase adhesion between the part and the chuck without warping the part?
I typically get a little concerned when sliding parts around but feel tells if particulate gets under the surface.
mostly when grinding in prep for lapping to .00002 checked by optical flats tho.
I'll never get things that close, but it certainly shows how to use a surface grinder.
hi ..thats a good trick to get the part flat but after its flat i would just grind it with the magnet on full power in the normal way to get rid of the criss cross patterns...customers won't like that look..thanks
Would it be possible to have a locating key in the base and the part? That way the part won't throw so easily. But as you point out, light grind and multiple passes wins.
Interesting process, I wonder if this "rotation method" can work on lighter, smaller pieces.
Dave P Yes , but you have to be very careful with thin parts so you don't throw them off the chuck.
Yes Don,
Things can go wrong at times. About 35 years ago, I sent most of a 20”x4”x12” wheel down an aisle that was uninhabited at the moment. A large piece of D2 slipped on an angle plate. Fortunately the controls on that big Thompson grinder force you to remain upwind.
Another thing that people would do that creeped me out, was to walk up on the left side of the grinder and start to bend over for a better view. I gave several sermons about catching steel parts and pieces of a broken wheel.
Your Reid grinder is one of the classic American Beauties.
Does keeping the magnet off help take out the high spot better or is it just to speed up the process?
It allows you to spin/move the part without turning the magnet on and off each time.
It also prevents the part from warping due to clamping force. Internal stresses in the steel can be a huge factor when you are trying to flatten to tenths
Thanks for tips.
Sir
"You can't stone too much" I completely agree ; )
Instead of using residual magnetism, if you use two or three magnet blocks and put them under your part and it’s going to reduce the magnetism and will not pull thin parts down.
Why don't you use the hydraulics for the table movement rather than turning the handle by hand? I have been grinding for just over 40 years and I just use plasticine to hold the job down and I could get that plate to better than 0.0001" flat and parallel due to how thick it is. Thinner plates are a little bit more of a challenge but plates of that thickness are easy due to them not being effected by heat as much but then again I always use coolant.
+dikkybee It’s not a hydraulic machine, it’s a hand machine. We have removed any air in the machine by moving the part, not the machine. Your method is a good way as well, this is just how I prefer to do it.
Hey Don, great videos. I REALLY need your help on grinding some form tools. Would it be possible to visit with you about this?
The trick is to grind all the details individually and measure them from a single datum.
Thank you!
Always bring the rotating wheel down center over the single point dresser. The spindle was turned off after dressing and on again to grind plate, you just lost you wheel true-ness. Spinning the plate on the mag chuck without the magnet being on, 1 is dangerous and 2 you risk swarf getting under your plate and lifting it. I've been a Toolmaker for many years. Flatness can be .00001" or less if done correctly
How do you get residual on a permanent magnet chuck?
Turn it on, then turn it off. Be sure not to move your part. What's left is residual.
Why shut the wheel off without redressing? In my mind that offers more of a error than the possibility of material getting underneath the part.
Ive only ever done this for "the look" on my personal tools I've made, on non critical faces.
It really helps with keeping 5 on a side (Fingers)
are you grinding with open magnet? isn't it dangerous?
Fischer977 Don mentions the disclaimer in the vid. IMO, you need a part that has enough mass, so this gets more dangerous the lighter the part. You're basically relying on friction and a little residual magnetism. All the laws of physics still apply. ;)
why did you not just pack the corners up on shims to remove the low spots then grind it
"...now I'm gonna shout the f* machine..."
😂😂😂
Why not put on the magnetic force?
Greetings from India
thank you
To cause more spark coming off the left side, is it possible that the chuck has more magnetic pull on the right side than the left? Thank you.
+FirstEliminator
I should clarify my original question by specifying while the convex side of the warped part was on the chuck more sparks were coming from the left side of the part because it was higher. It seemed peculiar that the sparks were continuously coming off the left side of the part even though it was being spun around. This makes it look like there may have been more residual magnetism holding down the right side of the part and lifting the left side. I don't know what's inside of the magnetic chuck, is this possible?
I need some form of helper to come sit next to me every time I watch videos with Imperial units... :)
How can "50 millionths" almost be the same as "7 tenths"? - It's madness. MADNESS...
Sorry about the confusion 50 millionth is half a 10th.
+TubbyTimmy Vice versa for myself.
+SuburbanTool Inc but a 50 millionth of what? a foot? is it a 10th of an inch?
greetings from Germany :)
+hassiaschbi Of an inch. Greetings from MI, USA.
Thank you :)
It appears that there is a tilt in the table
Thanks.
Nice
I wish I was a machinist so I could buy your products. Or have a reason to that is.
Don, why don't you use a clean paint brush to clean the chuck and parts rather than your hand that deposits a microscopic film of skin oil on it???
Frank-any time you use a brush you run the risk of leaving behind a chip or some grinding dust, far more detrimental than a little "skin oil".
Tough to feel a discontinuity with a brush too. Kind of like the gizzards that wear gloves
Well Don;
This opens up another can of worms.
My electro-magnetic chuck is variable, and has residual as well.
I assume that when in residual, magnetic distortion is at it's minimum. But that has to be balanced against safely holding the part.
Off in the middle ground, I supp0ose we are lookiing at the various settings of the mag chuck.
Maybe this makes sense quickly??
Thanjks yet again!!!
Mark
but it many cases its not practical to do. I used to have to grind hardened ejector and retainer thin plates that were less than 3/8ths thick but a couple of feet wide. If you put the plate on mag parallels at the four corners you can grind them flat to millionths. At first thought a person pictures the wheel forcing the middle of the plate down and the system at first seems unbelievable but it does in fact work. The plate in the video is very small and thick. In a very nasty situation with thin and huge plates--the system shown cannot be used in real life needing to get things done in record time or else lose the job.
but using this method you first indicate the plate on the surface plate and shim the 2 corners that stick up to produce the first surface. All work and flips are done on the mag parralells--at no time is it ever placed flat on the chuck residual or not.