Depends on the character, or movie. The main characters of La La Land, get what they thought they get more realistic versions, of what they were wanting to achieve. Yet, I think they both have the hindsight, that they’re relationship wasn’t what kept them from achieving it, or more. That movie is a bit different than the Whiplash character, as he’s far more driven, but it’s more about knowing he was as great as the legends, at one point, even a moment. Even Charlie Parker, is a bad example of someone to strive to be as great as, as good as, or like. He was a sad man, who had serious addiction problems, and let down a lot of people at different times in life. In music, he was a groundbreaker, who lived at a time when the music form was still young, with many realms unexplored. It’s a very unrealistic thing to strive for, just in a musical level, as Parker made even the greatest of his time, feel unoriginal and behind the evolution, that he was making happen in real time.
@@johnnotrealname8168 ehhhh, not Whiplash. To the character? Yes, Andrew succeeds at what he wanted. He will live as one of the "greats" and die at 35, wondering what we wondered as well at the end, "was it all worth it?" So I wouldn't count that as success. More like he achieved what he wanted, getting the IDEA of success that many people dream about, but will not sustain anything else in his life. La La Land is success and I believe First Man was as well.
I haven't seen his last two movies but I love whiplash's exploration of character and I adore La La Land. They are both great and hard to watch at the same time
First Man is some people's favorite film and others (me) couldn't get into it. Babylon is a special beast with some good and bad parts, I'd say give it a shot. Every director fails with a few movies so I'm hoping for Chazelle to come back to the level of his first two films soon
I can strongly relate to Andrew, for me it was pole vault instead of drums but the drive is the same. We do not need people to push us, we need people who make sure we do not break. When you already want to be the absolute best, you need guidance, not more motivation.
Exactly, hell, we don’t even know if he actually makes It. For all we know he never gets another gig after that and now he’s absolutely and completely alone.
@@JohnDoe-vc5qb Agreed. Sorry, bad wording - "made it" meaning he achieved his one 'great', memorable performance. Like you say, he's probably sad and lonely without a job after this - but I love that we never find out! Makes the ending so much better :)
@@JohnDoe-vc5qb If I recall correctly, Chazelle actually stated that his idea for Andrew's fate after the performance is that he'd ultimately die young and alone, just like all those musicians that he idolised, so that's definitely what the film is going for
I would say that artists and teachers/mentors need to take a serious look at the trauma that teachers inflict on their students to "make them great." No, it doesn't make artists great; it makes them traumatized and riddled with self-doubt. It is a much better approach to mentorship to create a relationship based on trust and gentle redirection. One can see the difference of these negative mentorships versus positive ones in the terrific show "The Bear." Carmy knows that there will be mistakes and expects more of them, which inspires others to read more, practice more, and take more risks. As a singer, there are worlds of difference between my first teacher, who was known to make students cry, and my current one who believes that baiting and demoralizing artists is BS.I've made infinitely more progress now rather than then.
I think having a teacher like fletcher as an option is good. As in, studying under their apprenticeship under willful consent. Overcoming resistance and expanding one's power is the fundamental element towards personal growth. When you are willfully confronting the hardship the teacher inflict upon you, your ethic framework becomes more solid and mature, and it is through this reflection from our educators that we learn to become ourselves. So no, hardships inflicted upon the student doesn't always lead to trauma. if it is under personal willful confrontation, then it aids personal development and growth. Diamonds form under pressure. It doesn't mean that it leaves no room for self-love or self-affirmation. I just think Fletcher got too many shits for his believes. Fletcher doesn't work for everyone. But I believe this world should have a place for people like fletcher. They are crucial characters in this world, more than people give them credits for.
My favourite movie is Babylon. La La land and whiplash are some of the best movies I have ever seen amongst the hundreds and hundreds I have watched. Damien Chazelle and Justin Hurwitz are THE duo. The best director and composer and they will continue to make the best movies as we keep strolling forward
i just love whiplash so much, im such a sucker for a story with a flawed protagonist. plus the fact that in the end, neither fletcher nor neiman really "wins" as neiman is most likely going to push himself to madness like fletcher's previous students and fletcher is going to continue abusing students until he pushes the wrong person too far neither person really learns anything and both of them are doomed to fail because they're both too selfish to realize it
I loved whiplash and it’s concept of “pushing beyond what’s expected” sure you will look evil to everyone but to that one person you will be that push to become the one. He found the someone to show spectacular performance and his performance was nothing short of mesmerizing. But I guess it’s all about perspective.
Whiplash is a great movie. I’ve watched it once and can never watch it again. Cinematically, storyline, score, it’s all amazing. This movie stresses me out like nothing else, and I'll appreciate the movie from a distance.
Playing the greatest solo ever and thinking that's success is as much of a goal as walking down the isle in a beautiful wedding dress and thinking that's a perfect relationship. I think if you strip the story of all the superficial, juvenile, and desperate exhibitions you will more accurately answer the question of whether Fletcher "was right".
I have just discovered this channel and I'm actually impressed with the details you explained. I always thought that these movies are showing us how we can dream big, but also how big of a sacrifice are you willing to give to reach those dreams? Keep up with the quality content and hoping you'll get more subs :)
Phenomenal thought piece, I personally haven’t watched all these movies but I’m really appreciative of the depth and the messaging behind them which on a casual viewing I might’ve missed. Thanks Jack
i used to have dreams, gave up on those long ago, i do agree pushes are needed, you need to fail, to experience disappointment, to rise back up, but you also need success and encouragement, its a complicated tango of balance
From the title, I was expecting this video to be about Christopher Nolan (Memento is obsession over catching the man who killed your wife, Insomnia is obsession over solving the murder case, Batman Begins is obsession over fighting against crime, Prestige is obsession over a professional rivalry, etc.)
I wouldn't even say he's selling out since he seems to be enjoying it, and it is for the purpose of inspiring new fans of Jazz and then eventually preserving older generations.
@@elijahalbiston seems to be enjoying it?? he wasn't enjoying it at all, from the beginning it was clearly implied he does it only for money (which is nothing wrong in my book)
Irrelevant but I never realized the brother in Whiplash plays for Carleton College 😂 bruh that’s D3 no wonder Andrew doesn’t respect him. Might’ve been a more poignant scene if his brother didn’t suck.
Whiplash still troubles me in his discography. The general public loves this movie since the ending feels so great. Its like a rush you feel after achieving something very hard. It feels indeed amazing. If the movie would have ended with Andrew completely failing, it would have felt as nasty and uncomfortable experience. This is the likely outcome since art cannot be created within a setting of such extreme pressure. There is literely no example of a great artist which has achieved amazing art in these extreme nurturing circumstances by a tutor (maybe it does work in sports yes). This is what troubles me with the ending of Whiplash, since it competely condemns the behavior of Fletcher. Apparantly i find it to say more about audiences that they accept extreme behavior when it leads to something 'good'.
Did we watch the same movie re Whiplash? Fletcher was abusive. The abuse didn’t lead to Neiman’s greatness. Neiman’s (perhaps misplaced) commitment to his own ambition and his choosing to go back, stand up for himself, rise above that abuse and play. Fletcher’s last play wasn’t to inspire greatness, it was purely out of spite, ego, and a desire to humiliate and dominate anyone that would dare to question him. Textbook abuse. Just because there happened to be an ambiguous “okay” end does not justify the means. Great art doesn’t require suffering. It’s a toxic mentality.
i think the point is more so that depending on your values and opinions you can view the ending either way. if thats your take away thats fair enough, but theres no denyting that Fletcher has a point, especially due to his tactics ultimately working
Yeah and people over analyzing saying just because he spent 1 yr of intense drum practice at 17 that he’s gonna be suffering and end up ending his own life because of it is so silly and dumb lol
Whiplash isn’t really about music. It’s about sport. Adam Neely did a great video on it. I cringe whenever anyone talks about it, because it gets so much so wrong.
I think of Whiplash as of a similar stripe to Polanski's bookends on utterly losing it... Repulsion and The Tenant. Unreliable narrators, and all that...
Please do not use the phrase “begs the question” (which is properly used to refer to the circular, logical fallacy of •petitio principii• or “assuming the point”) merely to mean “raises the question”.
Do any of Chazelle's characters actually "win"? Or is he saying that everyone loses?
Depends on the character, or movie. The main characters of La La Land, get what they thought they get more realistic versions, of what they were wanting to achieve. Yet, I think they both have the hindsight, that they’re relationship wasn’t what kept them from achieving it, or more. That movie is a bit different than the Whiplash character, as he’s far more driven, but it’s more about knowing he was as great as the legends, at one point, even a moment. Even Charlie Parker, is a bad example of someone to strive to be as great as, as good as, or like. He was a sad man, who had serious addiction problems, and let down a lot of people at different times in life.
In music, he was a groundbreaker, who lived at a time when the music form was still young, with many realms unexplored. It’s a very unrealistic thing to strive for, just in a musical level, as Parker made even the greatest of his time, feel unoriginal and behind the evolution, that he was making happen in real time.
@@CorbCorbin *their
Yes. His first three films are all success stories.
@@johnnotrealname8168 ehhhh, not Whiplash. To the character? Yes, Andrew succeeds at what he wanted. He will live as one of the "greats" and die at 35, wondering what we wondered as well at the end, "was it all worth it?" So I wouldn't count that as success. More like he achieved what he wanted, getting the IDEA of success that many people dream about, but will not sustain anything else in his life.
La La Land is success and I believe First Man was as well.
@@elijahalbiston I think it was. The look at the end shows that he got it finally. He has the beat.
Whiplash is such a masterpiece, full of pain, eerieness, doubt and unforgettable performances.
I haven't seen his last two movies but I love whiplash's exploration of character and I adore La La Land. They are both great and hard to watch at the same time
It's funny I'm the same story I only seen whiplash and la la land and they're magnificent films
Watch babylon. You're really missing something
First Man is some people's favorite film and others (me) couldn't get into it. Babylon is a special beast with some good and bad parts, I'd say give it a shot. Every director fails with a few movies so I'm hoping for Chazelle to come back to the level of his first two films soon
Babylon goes off the rails hard. The last 3rd of it is excruciatingly bad.
@@TC-lk2ev Feels like Tobey Maguire agreed to promote the movie as long as he could have a pointless sequence of his own.
I can strongly relate to Andrew, for me it was pole vault instead of drums but the drive is the same. We do not need people to push us, we need people who make sure we do not break. When you already want to be the absolute best, you need guidance, not more motivation.
Damien Chazelle sure is a magnificent film director. He brings forth new concepts that are just spotless.
whiplash ending is more tragedy than anything else. Fletcher wins, it's all validated. All of his nasty behavior.
Exactly, hell, we don’t even know if he actually makes
It. For all we know he never gets another gig after that and now he’s absolutely and completely alone.
@@JohnDoe-vc5qb Agreed. Sorry, bad wording - "made it" meaning he achieved his one 'great', memorable performance. Like you say, he's probably sad and lonely without a job after this - but I love that we never find out! Makes the ending so much better :)
@@JohnDoe-vc5qb If I recall correctly, Chazelle actually stated that his idea for Andrew's fate after the performance is that he'd ultimately die young and alone, just like all those musicians that he idolised, so that's definitely what the film is going for
I disagree
No, they get what they want. This seems to think mutual wins are not possible.
I would say that artists and teachers/mentors need to take a serious look at the trauma that teachers inflict on their students to "make them great." No, it doesn't make artists great; it makes them traumatized and riddled with self-doubt. It is a much better approach to mentorship to create a relationship based on trust and gentle redirection. One can see the difference of these negative mentorships versus positive ones in the terrific show "The Bear." Carmy knows that there will be mistakes and expects more of them, which inspires others to read more, practice more, and take more risks. As a singer, there are worlds of difference between my first teacher, who was known to make students cry, and my current one who believes that baiting and demoralizing artists is BS.I've made infinitely more progress now rather than then.
I think having a teacher like fletcher as an option is good. As in, studying under their apprenticeship under willful consent. Overcoming resistance and expanding one's power is the fundamental element towards personal growth. When you are willfully confronting the hardship the teacher inflict upon you, your ethic framework becomes more solid and mature, and it is through this reflection from our educators that we learn to become ourselves. So no, hardships inflicted upon the student doesn't always lead to trauma. if it is under personal willful confrontation, then it aids personal development and growth. Diamonds form under pressure. It doesn't mean that it leaves no room for self-love or self-affirmation. I just think Fletcher got too many shits for his believes. Fletcher doesn't work for everyone. But I believe this world should have a place for people like fletcher. They are crucial characters in this world, more than people give them credits for.
I didnt clock that JK was in Lalaland. Now we know why he fired him - not because he was playinf jazz, he was dragging
My favourite movie is Babylon. La La land and whiplash are some of the best movies I have ever seen amongst the hundreds and hundreds I have watched. Damien Chazelle and Justin Hurwitz are THE duo. The best director and composer and they will continue to make the best movies as we keep strolling forward
i just love whiplash so much, im such a sucker for a story with a flawed protagonist. plus the fact that in the end, neither fletcher nor neiman really "wins" as neiman is most likely going to push himself to madness like fletcher's previous students and fletcher is going to continue abusing students until he pushes the wrong person too far
neither person really learns anything and both of them are doomed to fail because they're both too selfish to realize it
I loved whiplash and it’s concept of “pushing beyond what’s expected” sure you will look evil to everyone but to that one person you will be that push to become the one. He found the someone to show spectacular performance and his performance was nothing short of mesmerizing. But I guess it’s all about perspective.
Whiplash is a great movie. I’ve watched it once and can never watch it again. Cinematically, storyline, score, it’s all amazing. This movie stresses me out like nothing else, and I'll appreciate the movie from a distance.
Exactlyyyyyy
Love your take and the production on this, cannot believe this only has 3k views! Wishing for your success!
Playing the greatest solo ever and thinking that's success is as much of a goal as walking down the isle in a beautiful wedding dress and thinking that's a perfect relationship. I think if you strip the story of all the superficial, juvenile, and desperate exhibitions you will more accurately answer the question of whether Fletcher "was right".
I have just discovered this channel and I'm actually impressed with the details you explained. I always thought that these movies are showing us how we can dream big, but also how big of a sacrifice are you willing to give to reach those dreams?
Keep up with the quality content and hoping you'll get more subs :)
Yes and, how much are other people willing to abuse you until they feel you’ve “earned” your dream, and justify it as anything but an ego trip?
Phenomenal thought piece, I personally haven’t watched all these movies but I’m really appreciative of the depth and the messaging behind them which on a casual viewing I might’ve missed. Thanks Jack
"Dont' be a Fletcher" - lol love it!
Yes. Awesome explanations and thoughts.
Diego Calva has to come back in another Chazelle film just like Ryan did.
Agreed, and like Simmons, I'd like to see Pitt back with him too.
But really I'm just commenting to say I love the Lighthouse pic
This channel needs to be more popular
i used to have dreams, gave up on those long ago, i do agree pushes are needed, you need to fail, to experience disappointment, to rise back up, but you also need success and encouragement, its a complicated tango of balance
thanks for making this video, damien chazelle is my favorite director and you just made me love him more :')
From the title, I was expecting this video to be about Christopher Nolan (Memento is obsession over catching the man who killed your wife, Insomnia is obsession over solving the murder case, Batman Begins is obsession over fighting against crime, Prestige is obsession over a professional rivalry, etc.)
One of the most promising movie directors of this decade. If not the century
Thoroughly enjoyable listen, good work
I never agreed with people ragging on Seb for "selling out"; how is he supposed to open his club without money??
Nice point
I wouldn't even say he's selling out since he seems to be enjoying it, and it is for the purpose of inspiring new fans of Jazz and then eventually preserving older generations.
@@elijahalbiston seems to be enjoying it?? he wasn't enjoying it at all, from the beginning it was clearly implied he does it only for money (which is nothing wrong in my book)
"When the director is obsessed with obsession."
Maybe it's obession, maybe it's greatness. Either way, it's gonna be Chazelle 😂
Babylon was a masterpiece. 😭
Straight up. I can't wait for it to become a cult classic. Among the most underrated films of all time tbh.
Splendid vid mate! Bravo
He should be the director for David Goggins documentary, if ever they do one.
When they forgot about Guy and Madeline on a Park Bench
thank you for the video :)
I adore the opening of this Video so much!
What is Andrew saying when he responds to his brother? (7:27) I genuinely don't know what he's saying or what it means.
Irrelevant but I never realized the brother in Whiplash plays for Carleton College 😂 bruh that’s D3 no wonder Andrew doesn’t respect him. Might’ve been a more poignant scene if his brother didn’t suck.
Very good video
If it wasn’t for Fletcher Andrews dad would never have appreciated his talent and dedication
Nice video
Whiplash still troubles me in his discography. The general public loves this movie since the ending feels so great. Its like a rush you feel after achieving something very hard. It feels indeed amazing. If the movie would have ended with Andrew completely failing, it would have felt as nasty and uncomfortable experience.
This is the likely outcome since art cannot be created within a setting of such extreme pressure. There is literely no example of a great artist which has achieved amazing art in these extreme nurturing circumstances by a tutor (maybe it does work in sports yes). This is what troubles me with the ending of Whiplash, since it competely condemns the behavior of Fletcher. Apparantly i find it to say more about audiences that they accept extreme behavior when it leads to something 'good'.
12.35 minutes of pure facts
Great 🎉
Did we watch the same movie re Whiplash?
Fletcher was abusive. The abuse didn’t lead to Neiman’s greatness. Neiman’s (perhaps misplaced) commitment to his own ambition and his choosing to go back, stand up for himself, rise above that abuse and play.
Fletcher’s last play wasn’t to inspire greatness, it was purely out of spite, ego, and a desire to humiliate and dominate anyone that would dare to question him. Textbook abuse.
Just because there happened to be an ambiguous “okay” end does not justify the means.
Great art doesn’t require suffering. It’s a toxic mentality.
i think the point is more so that depending on your values and opinions you can view the ending either way. if thats your take away thats fair enough, but theres no denyting that Fletcher has a point, especially due to his tactics ultimately working
Skill Up ❤
but whiplash is hes one best movie.
That 💩 in Whiplash isn’t motivating. It’s degrading and it causes failure more than success.
12:33 fin.
charlie parker isnt a drummer
but he is a metaphor for achieving success through tough motivation, so it works. nice ability to understand connections nadia
No, man, no. Because the next Charlie Parker would never be discouraged.
You're looking into that line a little too literal
Whiplash was a bit much. Dudes throwing shit at people over something so trivial. Its trying to be intense but it comes off as just silly.
Yeah and people over analyzing saying just because he spent 1 yr of intense drum practice at 17 that he’s gonna be suffering and end up ending his own life because of it is so silly and dumb lol
Whiplash isn’t really about music. It’s about sport. Adam Neely did a great video on it. I cringe whenever anyone talks about it, because it gets so much so wrong.
I liked whiplash. I did not like Babylon.
I think of Whiplash as of a similar stripe to Polanski's bookends on utterly losing it... Repulsion and The Tenant. Unreliable narrators, and all that...
Did this guy just casually ruin the movie for all the people who haven't seen it yet?
Please do not use the phrase “begs the question” (which is properly used to refer to the circular, logical fallacy of •petitio principii• or “assuming the point”) merely to mean “raises the question”.