Large VS Small Speaker Settings (LFE + Main Controversy Follow Up)
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- As I learn more, certain things become clear. For sure, the idea of setting a tower to "Small" just seems wrong to a lot of people... Vv Click SHOW MORE vV,
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I totally get why people would hesitate to set their towers to small, especially when it comes to spending in excess of $400 per speaker. It seems the more you spend, the more upsetting it is to set the speaker to "Small".
It's labeling. Back in the days, they slapped the labels of "Large" and "Small" on the menu and it stuck. A less disturbing way of looking at it is "bass managed" (Small) and "not bass managed" (Large).
If you set your speakers to Large, your subwoofer gets cut out of the loop completely for that channel, which is no good unless your speakers are super expensive and you are running gobs and gobs of power to them. Even then, it makes it hard to balance the sub when channels are missing.
The Prime towers are awesome, they are rated for 32 hertz and offer more substantial bass than the $1500 towers that came before them, but they cannot compete with the dynamics offered by the PB-1000 subs. This is not some design flaw or shortcoming, it's normal. If your goal is to eliminate the need for subwoofers by getting towers, you better have a really thick wallet.
Beyond that, it takes gobs of power to reproduce deep bass at meaningful levels. And without power to manage signal and response curves like what is found in the subwoofers I discuss, deep bass is probably not happening with meaning in a non active tower (no internal amp and processing). Of course, there are always exceptions, but for most cases this is true.
Here is the write up for the Large VS Small:
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Subwoofers should reproduce quality sound with authority throughout the humanly audible bass spectrum (20-100 hertz). Most do not.
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Here is the setup at the time of upload:
Amplifier, same as mine (X2000), but updated for 4k and dual subwoofers: shrsl.com/?~bngf
Consider stepping up to an amp with preouts in case you want to get separate power amps later. The X2000 does not have them, I believe the X3200 does: shrsl.com/?~bngh
Provided on a demo basis by SVS:
Towers: sub101.link/Pr...
Surrounds: sub101.link/Sa...
Center: sub101.link/Pr...
Dual Ported Subwoofers: sub101.link/PB...
Speaker wire: sub101.link/SP...
Subwoofer cable: sub101.link/RCA
LG 4K 3D that I replaced previous Vizio with a Square Trade type warranty. Love the LG, some issues aside.
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Further discussion on LFE/LFE+MAIN and Small/Large speaker settings when setting your crossover frequency...
If you set your receiver to LFE+MAIN AND you have some speakers set to "Large" then all of the frequencies that are below your crossover setting that are sent to your Mains (Mains = any speaker set to "Large") will ALSO be sent to the Sub(s) as well.
Alternatively, if speakers are set to "Small", all frequencies below crossover points will be sent to subwoofers ONLY and will not be played through the "small speaker" (more accurately, as you approach your crossover setting, the signal is gradually transitioned to the sub(s) due via low pass filtering as he discusses). Again, if speakers set to "Large", all frequencies below crossover points will be played with "said speaker" (down to it's rated freq response capability) AND will also be sent to subwoofers.
Note: Setting a speaker to "small" does NOT mean you have little speakers...it is just a way to tell the receiver if you want that speaker to handle low freqs or not.
When/Why would anyone want to do this? Rule of thumb: if you have awesome sub(s) then you want to subs to take most of the load (the lower end bass freqs), so set all speakers to "small" and let the sub do the work for the crossover freqs and below (this free's up the mids/lower woofers on your other speakers so they don't distort the other "higher" freqs trying come out of the same "cone") When setup like this, I also like to crank up my subs a little more than the rest of the other speakers (I like to FEEL the bass with movies...I can do this successfully and not distort the dialog and other sound effects because the subs are the only speaker handling the bass).
If your subs are average (my opinion: average sub = any sub with a RMS less than 300W or a sub that can't handle freqs below 27Hz or so...again, just MY opinion) AND you have other speakers that are rated to handle freqs below your crossover setting, then set those speakers to "Large" so that they will play freqs below the crossover setting down to their rated low-end frequency response WHILE ADDITIONALLY those freqs will also be sent to the sub(s). With all speakers/subs set at the same volume, this will provide assistance to your sub and will give you more "oomph" in your overall setup.
Hope this helps! Also, I welcome additional comments in case I misstated anything, or anyone has some other good advise from personal experience.
What is the difference between lfe and lfe plus main if speakers are set too small ?
Gus Nothing...there is no difference if speakers are set to small. Some receivers will even “Grey out” the selection of LFE+Main if speakers are set to small. Others (including my Denon) allow you to select either even when the speakers are set small but there will be no audible difference.
I was just about to send a comment that I disagreed with you - UNTIL I listened to your point at the 5 minute mark. My fronts have a 15" woofer each and are rated at 400 watts rms. each. My sub is a little 10". It really is used only in movies at lower listening volumes. If I crank up the volume - my fronts overpower it to the point you can't even hear it. Guess I'm one of the exceptions. Great video. Keep them coming! I listen to most of them!
Thanks so much! I'm going to try your suggestions - it's not about right or wrong either, but you make some excellent (clear) points to encourage novices to garner better sound from what they have. Thanks again, great job.
I have two home theatre environments A Denon X-3200 and and x3400. Ive taken some of your advice and my systems have achieved the Nirvana I have been looking for. The 3200 is running 5.1.2 Pioneer Andrew Jones Bookshelf speakers and a ElRac 100 watt Sub. The sounds are incredible...Thank you!! The 3400 is runnng 5.1 with 4 in ceiling speakers a Polk Audio Center Channel and a ELRAC 100 watt sub as well...im using Zone 2 to power two outside speakers on a Sonos PORT and the in ceilings as well...Anyway. Great channel. Wish I found it sooner
At the moment im using Q-acoustics 3020 with old Sony STR-DE 497 av reciver and logitech z-5500 subwoofer along with center and surround speakers from logitech . I Can say the "small" setting on my 3020 improved the sounds a lot. They still do stuff below 80hz ,but with less effort because its moved to the sub. I know my setup is not ideal ,but believe me the z-5500 sub below 80hz sounds pretty good for such a small box. It is blending with 3020's without any issue. Looking forward to get the center+ surround speakers from q-acoustics and svs pb 1000 sub
Thanks man! Definetly the dog has to be set as LARGE, barking at around 50Hz it has its own sub. No tweeter just solid and low woof woof!
Hi Subwoofer 101, I just wanted to say thank you for all your help and work on the videos you post. I went ahead and got a Denon AVR and a new Subwoofer Klipsch 12" and my sound has improved radically specially doing a lot of the tweaks you have recommended across multiple videos. I hope you keep making videos. they are appreciated
Good on the AVR, but I don't recall suggesting the Klipsch. Just like the majority of subwoofers out there, they just don't go deep enough for me. I'm not saying Klipsch are particularly bad, just that truly great subs are rare.
The subs I recommend can be found here:
www.subwoofer101.com/best-subwoofers/
I'm glad you find the channel helpful. I enjoy the topic, deep bass is rare, but so amazing when it's done right.
so when it comes to buying a receiver, would you buy one with a bi-amp or without? and is bi-amp needed for setting up atmos
No, bi-amp is not necessary. It's not an option to avoid, nor is it necessary.
It's just a way to dedicate 2 on-board amp channels to 1 speaker. If you're running Atmos, you want as many channels as you can get.
A good AVR will probably have it as an option, but it's not something I would look for specifically.
Great video, especially Bear! The comments here are really worth reading.
I have a confession to make: Last week, I received a pair of the wonderful SVS Ultra bookshelf speakers. When I was setting it up, I discovered that I had been running my two fronts on 'small' for about three years. :) I only use the two fronts, and mainly for music.
I am thinking that I will buy the SB 2000's. I listen in my bed room which is 10'x14'x8'. The Ultras are on my desk on each side of my computer screen. Plan to put the subs at the right, next to the desk. I could get by with the 1000's, but want to be experimenting with the subs for a long time, and the 2000's seem to be a lot better. For me, the experimenting is the lion's share of the fun.
Think I should get the 2000's?
+E.Kent.D Are you talking about SB-1000's or PB-1000's? I loved the PB-1000's, they handle business. I'm more of a ported fan myself, but the SB-2000's are impressive and tight, great for purist listening.
Yeah, guess I will go with the sealed 2000's. Mainly for music, but I do not claim to be an audiophile, or I ,guess, a purist, my pockets are not deep enough. :) Thanks!
Thanks a lot for this info! I have just set up my floorstandings from “large” to “small”, adjusted crossover to 90hz, and now the 2.1 with the subwoofer sounds AWESOME!
A question: I also have a Denon receiver, so setting up no question about it.
But my subwoofer is active, and it also has crossover level adjustable from the subwwofer. To what level should I adjust the crossover control on the subwoofer? Thanks in advance!
Let the AV receiver handle the crossover. You adjust the crossover on the AV receiver, not the subwoofer. On the sub, you should turn the crossover knob to max. You also should put the phase knob on 0. I set the crossover on my mains and center channel at 90hz and 80hz on the surround. Very pleased with the balanced bass. You should note that a new set of speakers need to run for 50-150 hours before they break in and produce the designed sound quality.
I know your comment is from a couple years ago but I thought I’d respond so you and others who come across this comment can learn the answer to this common question.
@@KhaledTheSaudiHawkII thanks so much! Better late than never :) !
@@KhaledTheSaudiHawkII Here's a question 2 years later. Are you running these settings on LFE or LFE + Main?
Thanks for the info, I will experiment with this and see I I get better results.
If you set the receiver to pure direct, that does force the speakers to large? No matter what the receiver speaker size is set to?
Ive got Klipsch 8 channel. I run my towers at small and only run 3-4 level on my Klipsch reference sub forward firing and the bass or low ends is perfect. I do not like bass that vibrates so much it effect the clean highs so I blend them in. I used a tape measure to prime listening area and set the levels manually with s sound meter at 70db. Sounds amazing. But I can crank my sub to 5 and still have more to go but I like the crisp deep tight sub, not a lingering throb boom. I set my crossover to 100hz as this is my weakest speaker the side channels so I loose no bass info in the entire sound field. Another reason to put the low end info to the sub is to provide more headroom on the amps going out to the speaker package. This will allow your amp to drive clean highs and let the power of the low end be taken care by the sub amp. This will take stress off the amp. and provide lower distortion and higher volume levels.
Ok you run your towers to small what about atmos if you have them and what's the sound like at small on towers vs large
So now that I switched them from large to small, should I change my sub to just LFE or leave it at LFE+main. Thanks for your help.
In my opinion it's all what sounds good too you. Tweak the settings if it sounds better at Full do it if it sounds better at Small try small just play with the settings
From what I was told if you have large speakers like really good large speakers you set to large. ( I have yet to decide my setting) (my front 3 speakers are 1000 watt rms 3 way and have a 15 inch woofer 6.5 inch midrange and a compression driver, it can hit 27hz but that's probably -5 to -10db) Again this is what are heard and the reason given was some movies say Godzilla and e stomps to the left and your sub thumps he stomps on the right front and back but still all that comes from the sub, removing directionality. you still are supposed to send the LFE channel to the subwoofer so they can give you the real low effects. with minidsp you can even have the subs and fronts playing the 40hz-80hz tones. again I have no idea myself and trying to figure this out before I run dirac live.
Bass under 80-90 hertz is hard to locate, it's the accompanying higher frequencies that gives the sense of direction to bass.
So when Godzilla is walking around in your room, it's frequencies over 80-90 hertz that is truly generating that sense of direction.
Which speakers are you running? Subs?
Regardless of all of that, Killshot should help you decide. You might have the rare setup that makes Large a viable, better option than Small.
My speakers are all DIY made from professional level equipment, not sure if you can buy a 3 way speaker with a 15 inch woofer 6.5 inch midrange and 1 inch compression driver that handles 1000 watts rms peak of 2000 watts rms and can hit 128db. I don't have the amp power to go that high but I can hit 120db. Running a svs sb4000 for the next couple months until I can build a dual sealed 24 inch subwoofer setup from SI. From what others who have built a similar sub, even if the cabinet weighs 500lbs it can physically move the whole cabinet if driven hard. Just hope it doesn't destroy the house haha. I'll have to give killshot a try.
Hi....really enjoying going through all your videos. Does this advise still hold true to say having just one sub and a pair of bookshelfs that rate at 48?
I run all my speakers full range and with enhanced bass and then adjust my subwoofers crossover and use the subs room correction. I never use audsyey. Setting my speakers to small and 80hz sounds too thin and not as rich. I've never heard my subs sound like they were putting out less. I think if you have a decent pre power with efficient speakers the grip is very different and you don't lose control. When I used to have a receiver the soundstage got blurred and boomy sounding when I ran them full range and 80hz small was my only option. I think bar the Arcam and Anthem receivers the power ratings on Japanese receivers are very optimistic and what you're actually experiencing is the receiver running out of steam during dynamic swings and losing control of the speakers. I would look in to getting a pre power and then you will find that you can listen to it at any volume and run it full range and have full rich sounding timbre wjth a huge sound that is tight and never boomy or blurred sounding. Just my two cents. I had a Denon AVCA1XVA (absolute beast) 180 watts a channel, the short story is it wasn't and I had to run it small. If you can't run your speakers full range without boom and they are within 88db to 91db then you are losing current. It's not actually a symptom of small being optimum more a symptom of receivers.
+Justin Hunting The "enhanced bass" setting is probably like LFE + main, which does continue to send signal to the subs. Turn that off and your subs get no signal for the corresponding Large channels. Of course your particular setup could diverge from the norm. Agree that most receivers are under powered for full range, and that you need a very expensive setup (like yours) to make it worthwhile. The need for big power increases as the frequency drops, which is why most would do best to let the subs do the heavy lifting and take the strain off of the AVR. Thanks for the feedback, it helps put things in perspective. Most do not have access to the kind of gear you have, and if they adjust the settings as though they do, they will get lackluster performance, like the loss of control and poor dynamics.
I agree 80hz is the best way to run speakers on receivers and let the subs do the work. I have tried all speakers large without enhanced bass and the subs are still pressurising the room and moving like crazy. I've had a lot of silmlar priced pre powers (inc McIntosh and Krell) and none of them have sent as strong and potent a signal to my subs as the NAD. I was testing the dual DAC's on the M17 the other day and just for a laugh I hooked up an iPhone and the sound that came out is awesome. You don't need to spend $50k on a system like I have to get an amp that will control your floorstanders in full range. Emotiva will do it (with less finesse and detail than my system) but will rival it for brawn. I just feel floorstanders are sort of wasted on receivers and by cutting the crossover on them they don't sing as well. They are designed to be run full range to sound tonal my right. I always found with my Denon if I ran it full range it sounded fantastic until things on screen started kicking off and then it just lost all the head room and the soundstage shrunk and it got boomy. I'm actually selling my old NAD masters pre and power amp for £1,150. You can find a Naim pre for £250 on eBay and Vincent and Emotiva do monster 5 channel power amps for very cheap. If you don't get hung up on all the lossless bollocks of DTS MA (which is no different to core) you could have an IMAX soud system in your living room, :-)
+Justin Hunting When you have more power you should get better dynamics from a tower. What are your thoughts on Outlaw Amps?
I've heard really good things about Outlaw. Not ever heard them as they are American and my dealer doesn't have them.
+Subwoofer 101 outlaw amps drooling
What about turning up the sub volume??
Whether you must set your speakers to Small or Large in the AV Receiver really depends on three things:
1) Your AV Receiver
2) Your Fronts (or other speaker, where it applies)
3) Your Subwoofer.
It is only logical, as the choice depends on what the receiver does, and what your Front and SW can do.
Some AV Receiver (like mine) will send signal to the SW even if speakers or set to Large. Some AV Receivers need to be put at Small so the SW get something.
And even there, you have to know what kind of frequency response your Front can output to make the best choice.
You have your LPF of LFE at 80hz..?
Can I still use base management and set my towers to 80hz crossover when I have bi amped my speakers through my receiver or is it better to leave it at large?
Hi, I have new flagship Denon AVC110 Great. Setup using a mic. After watching many youtube post now decided to set up a manual. Great. My question is my 2ch music has SVS sub and B&W CDM9 I have set Sub + Mains and Front speaker to large with cross-over set at 80Hz. I have set my films to all speakers small and the subwoofer only cross-over 80Hz. my side speakers are CDM1 B&W and all my speakers are wired 5.1 Bi-amp. Any tips or advice i could consider trying out would be great full.
What should I put for 4 bookshelf speakers for the back surround sound speakers
If i set my big speakers to small and only lfe bass setting they sound like 1/4 of the size with no bass and my sub goes crazy because of the bass i keep the big speakers at large sounds better to me.
!great video :)
+Unexpected Sensation Thanks! Your sub is probably turned up too high in the small setting, which would make sense as the sub is getting very little signal in the large setting, causing you to turn it up to compensate.
If you're game, dial the sub all the way down on the AVR/receiver and make all speakers small. Set crossover to 80 hertz on the AVR. Then find some familiar music, I use Norah Jones, and slowly dial up the sub on the AVR until it sounds "filled in."
Your big speakers will produce less bass, but you should get better quality bass from your sub, assuming it's a good sub. Let me know how it goes if you try it. Should sound cleaner.
+Subwoofer 101 its a 200€ magnat monitor 301a sub not the best but it's ok for movies ,thinking of getting a svs pb 1000 in some time.
+Subwoofer 101 Did a new run with audyssey sounds better but if i cut the front speakers at 80hz it sounds too boomy with the standart audyssey settings it sounds more natrual my setup : Denon x1200w ,canton gle 490.2 ,magnat alu needle center, surround ,magnat monitor 301 subwoofer :)
+Unexpected Sensation The sub is probably peaky around 50-70 hertz, creating the boomy sound. Not uncommon. A PB 1000 would sound cleaner when properly adjusted. Two would give you excellent performance. Also try setting the Audyssey EQ to"flat".
+Subwoofer 101 yes the sub is peaky but good for watching movies ,im trying the audessy flat setting now with music thanks .
Hello everyone.
I am having issues with my denon AVR receiver. It's the x1100W. 7.2 channels.
I ran the audyssey several times, reset all the settings and do the tests again but with no success.
This is the configuration : Magnat Quantum 675 for front, Quantum 555 Surround and a Quantum 53 as Center. For the low end spectrum (not saying that the floorstanding speakers don't pack a punch but we will get there) two Quantum 530A.
My problem is that when i set the subwoofers to "YES" in the avr menu, it stops sending low end frequencies to the other speakers, even though i've tried every possibility. (setting them to large, turning "main" for bass reproduction, also i've changed the crossovers and here something funny is happening)
let me explain what's going on when i change the crossovers for the 5 speakers. for two seconds after the receiver "applies" the value i choose (90hz) it sounds exactly the way it should, considering the low end. After those two seconds it fades away, just like it hasn't got enough power to continue. No power saving feature is on.
Sorry for my english if there are any mistakes around, and i thank you in advance for any advice you may have. (also please keep in mind i know my speakers and the sounded really good with another denon receiver i had a while back. i assure you these are really really good sounding speakers)
If you don't have 2 subs and you are using separate amps. and you have towers that can go low, the idea is you get that multiple bass generation effect with large. Agree it makes 0% sense with the 2 large sub setup you have, most of the time even 1.
All of my speakers are crossed over at 80 hz ,all set to small . I found that in direct mode with LFE+ main enabled my sub woofer is also active. Since my mains are bookshelf, the extra oomph is welcome, just wondering if you could elaborate on this. Great vids BTW.
+cagaymanga Sure can! www.subwoofer101.com/setting-up-your-gear/large-vs-small-lfe-main-double-bass-etc/
I am just wondering if the subs at the front give you the flatest frequency response or if they complement each other (modes and nulls) in your listening area.
+Juraj Hatina (Youreye Photo) A sub on either side of the tv is a great location, and their interaction does make the response more complete, even more than a response graph would indicate. My nulls decreased substantially! There are other locations that are known to work that I have not tried because it's a mixed use room, not a dedicated home theater where I can really experiment with placement. That said, having them located next to the fronts seems ideal to me for many reasons, especially if you can line up the baffles of the subs and the fronts.
What is never mentioned is Small and LFE+MAIN. My pioneer Elite receiver has that option only it's called "Plus". I know most receivers only allow Small and Yes only but my Pio has Small and Plus(LFE+MAIN). So what does Small and Plus do??
On the Denon it does nothing. LFE+Main only has an effect when set to Large. Should be the same.
@@Subwoofer101 Well my receiver has the option for Small and LFE+MAIN. I've gone back and forth with it and I really don't see a difference. It has to have some differences.
Hmmm I still get base management if I set my fronts to large. . . as long as I set the sub to 'yes' the sub gets a piece of the action, in addition to the towers.
+DarthHater100 It may be specific to my receiver. I was starting to question my sanity, but setting all speakers to large gave me nothing through my subs. Not just very little signal, but nothing. If double bass or LFE+Main or whatever other similar option is turned on, then the subs will get signal when set to large. Not all options are universal from one AVR/Pre to another. What kind of amplification are you working with?
+Subwoofer 101 nothing special for amplification, Denon AVR-3802 receiver, 110 Watts x 7, though I don't need a lot of power bc each of my fronts have three 8" built in powered subs, and that, together with the main-sub, takes a lot of burden off the receiver. I did have it on LFE+Main, but I just tried it on just LFE and I still get subwoofer action with my fronts set to large, playing a CD. Like you say, it must be the specific receiver. Does the 'no sub action when set to large' happen only with a CD? I'd think that on DTS or Dolby, you'd always still get the LFE channel going out and it would be not turned off, regardless of large/small settings. Just thinking that maybe when you were testing all that out, you might have been doing it with music, which obviously doesn't have a 0.1 channel, and youd HAVE to have it set to LFE+Main to get anything in the sub.
I also usually run my power towers at small, which is controversial, but I think it blends nicely. Maybe it's all in my head, but I swear running them full range makes the whole sound stage sound like it's blowing wind and overextended (can't describe it), which doesn't seem to happen at all with them crossed over at 80Hz. But even with the fronts crossed over at 80Hz, the front-speaker's subs still get a lot of above-80Hz action, so it isn't a total waste, kind of beefs up the lower midrange, and relieves some pressure behind my mids. And it doesnt take the muscle out of the sound at all, as the sub does a really good job of covering the below-80Hz stuff that the fronts arent getting and blends very well. Interesting topic, lots of different points of view though. . . sometimes all the theory in the world doesn't matter if it just sounds better a certain way. . .
+DarthHater100 You pretty much nailed it all. I do all of my subwoofer integration with music as I find movies to be too difficult to judge. When there is an LFE channel the sub still gets signal, just not as much as when speakers are set to small. So if you set ALL of your speakers to large and not LFE+main, is your sub still getting signal with 2 channel music?
+Subwoofer 101 Yup, tried it with a CD and it still feeds my sub. . . Like you said, probably just my receiver.
DarthHater 100: Me too. So I'm not sure what Small or Large does in that case. Keep me posted if you find out.
boxes in large and LFE + MAIN is a bad choice? because ?
That is how my setup is. Sounds way better. Large setting lets the internal crossovers in the speaker boxes work. Everyone seems to forget each box has a built in crossover..
Hey there, couple of questions?
I have def tech 9040 towers with self powered subs . I aso have single stand alone sub. I know generally one would set towers to small but it seems in this situation large is recommended. I cant seem to find the answer for using LFE+Main or just LFE ? What's the recommendatin for that setting. Does large or small setting change that choice ?
Thanks
Did you figure it out? I have the same as you with the 9060 center and superfine 4000. When I set to LFE+main I get power to my sub when listening to music and that’s what I was searching for
Ok, I have 2 Front's that are Definitive Technology BP 8060, with the a 10 inch Sub inside each tower. I don't have an External Subwoofer to these. Do I still set this Big Tower to Small? 1st time i did the Calibration, now my center channel doesn't sound as loud, I need to see how to make that louder
Disclosure, I'm definitely a Newbie - No Audiophile here LOL
Set your fronts to large and they will set the speakers subs on...also mess with the crossovers
I have Canton GLE 496 towers with two 200mm (7,9inch) woofers in them, the speakers have rating of 20 Hz - 30 kHz response. On top of that i have 10" subwoofer. Pioneer receiver only has 50hz or 80hz crossovers. Which one would u recommend to put it?
Depends on the sub, most subs get quieter as they go deeper, and that can play havoc on which crossover to use. I would use the Small setting regardless, and probably at least 60 hertz, so 80 hertz would be my pick. www.subwoofer101.com/setting-up-your-gear/large-vs-small-lfe-main-double-bass-etc/
Oh its about what your TAKING AWAY from your mains! Because passive speakers just aren't as dynamic and powerful in the bass, by enlarge as powered subs. And also, receivers amplifier au m sections aren't so strong as dedicated separates amps! . So getting the bass OUT of your speakers bellow 80hz, makes the system much more efficient! Less taxing on your amp, more efficient for your low efficiency passive crossovered speakers, and direct active amplified subs for your demanding bass load.
Winning
My satellites are supposed to be crossed at 100 to 120 Hz. But when I set them up there they sound terrible. They don’t blend with my fronts and center and subs. But when I set everything to 80 Hz and the subs to 90Hz... man it’s awesome and flawless and the highs and lows and spacial resonance and everything are perfectly blended. What’s up with that? Any thoughts?
@Subwoofer 101 hi let me start by saying that I love all your videos. I need some advise on a set up. I have the acoustimas 15 Bose and the directions from Bose says that they speakers should be set to large instead of small but doing so leaves me bass deprived when watching movies. I have the system connected to a Sony receiver STR-dn1000 and when I use the calibration tool from Sony it also sets the speakers to large... you have mentioned in the past that those speakers should be set to small and 80hz, the base sounds better but is not there yet. There is a lot of boom but not a lot of deep bass LFE. What do you recommend? P.s the room is an open floor plan 25ft by 50+
+Carlos Rodriguez Bose is right because of the way the acoustimass is set-up. It runs it's crossover after the Sony, in the acoustimass module. All of the bass gets divided up once it gets to the subwoofer, a bit different from the norm. So yes, large would be the best setting.
In a room that big, you would need a set of dual PB-2000's or better to get truly decent bass. If it's the model I'm remembering, 3 5.25 inch drivers are not going to come close to delivering quality bass.The difference between the subs I recommend and most 12"-18" subs is pretty undeniable. In your case, it would be a drastic difference. Like stepping into an alternate dimension.
I don't mean to pick on your equipment, I've owned the same set-up. I love the QC-35 headphones, but after many thousands of dollars with Bose, they would have to make some serious changes for me to get excited about their home theater products.
Here's the "The List" of subwoofers that buck the trend and deliver real quality bass:
www.subwoofer101.com/best-subwoofers/
I'm glad you enjoy the channel, and hopefully I haven't insulted you. It's just a path I've been down already, and I found it frustrating, especially once I heard what deep bass is all about. So much more satisfying!
WOW this is the best response I have ever got from you tube.. thank you so much... and i agree with you is time to upgrade. i bought this bose over 10 years ago but now my kid went and got the bose 300 and is day and night different from my bose. this also means that i need to get a new receiver because I just got a 4k TV and this receiver does not pass 4k video. so in the meantime is there any point in controlling the SW level on the sony or leave it all to the bass module?
+Carlos Rodriguez Interesting question! I don't know if my tricks would help or just make the problem worse. I adjust the AVR Subwoofer trim down almost as low as it will go and then the gain on the subwoofer higher to compensate. On an SVS sub it's awesome, but it may exacerbate the weaknesses in other subs. I'd be curious what you think.
As for AVR's, check out my Amazon page, the Denon X4300 is a solid value when it's in stock. 9.2 Atmos Enabled, with the ability to add external amplification and run 11.2 channels. I have the X6200, but I would have been happy to go with the X4300. Of course, the x4400 even better as it is the newer version.
www.amazon.com/shop/subwoofer101
so I went ahead and did some of the things that you recommend and I do hear a difference. however I downloaded a sound check audio file that shows you in a video what speaker is being targeted and while the audio comes out of the right speaker. I also her bass with each one of them and to my understanding I should only hear bass when the Module/sub woofer is being targeted. what do you recommend? i can tell you ahead of time and I know is not ideal , that im using fiber audio cable and not hdmi because by AVR cant pass 4k so i have my nvidia Shield directly to the TV and then tv out to AVR via fiver. having said that I still think that bass should only come out of the module. my current configuration is 5.1 bose satellite set to small at 80hz
+Carlos Rodriguez Bose is a different animal. If you're speaker cables go through the bass module first, then it is best to set it at large. The highs and lows are divided up by the bass module, if that's the set-up you have. It's ok to hear the bass module during targeted tones, I think the bass module has a 200+ hertz crossover. Which sound check file did you use?
What do you think about crossing over at 60 Hz oppose to 80hz ?
If you have the power and the drivers are more dynamic than the subs (not very common), go for it. It's also helpful with some sealed subs that kick out more above 40-60 hertz. When I had the SB-2000's I ran my center at 60 hertz. ua-cam.com/video/mLT51HUB3dQ/v-deo.html
But generally I like to give the full 80 hertz signal to my subs, higher if the drivers are small. I run the Prime Satellites bit.ly/PrimeSatellite (affiliate link) at 110-120 hertz.
If my amp was more powerful, I might run the Prime Towers at 60 hertz, but the subwoofers are just more dynamic under 80 hertz with my current setup.
With something like the Ultra Towers bit.ly/UltraTower and a strong amp, running at 60 or even 40 may be good. It's all a flavor/personal preference thing. If I were to run the Ultra Towers with my current AVR, I'd most likely run 80 hertz still. The weak link is my AVR, but with a 80 hertz crossover it doesn't matter so much, the subs pick up the slack, and more power is delivered above the crossover frequency.
In this article, Ed explains it pretty well. For me, understanding the way the frequencies are filtered off made everything click. The sub get almost nothing above the crossover, while the main speakers still get a fair amount of the signal below the crossover. So I see the crossover as where you are cutting off from the sub, more than what you are cutting off from the mains.
www.subwoofer101.com/setting-up-your-gear/large-vs-small-lfe-main-double-bass-etc/
Its all available info on manufacturers website.
hello i have onkyo txnr 646 and the harman kardon hkts 9bq and my receiver after accueq has the satelite speakers front to 180hz and back to 150 and the sub to 120hz thats good for the sound? i try to down hz to the sub but the receiver goes only to 80hz why it dosn go 40 30or less can you help and tell me what i have to do thanks...
I doubt you want to go below 80 hertz. SVS is good with this kind of thing, better than me, and they offer free support to my audience, even if you're not a customer yet: bit.ly/SVSsupport (affiliate link)
what i can do whith this SVS im from Greece?
I have a sc13 ultra is it a problem to only run one side of the input? It doesn’t say lfe
You shouldn't have an LFE marked input. That's the one that it should be plugged into. If you don't have an LFE marked input, I would call SVS.
Subwoofer 101 shouldn’t? Or should lol
5:45 was that a bear?
One more thing. Another way to get an amazingly well controlled beefy potent IMAX rivalling set up for even cheaper than what you paid for your gear is to get some active studio speakers (like Adams which are about $500 a pair) and a cheap but amazing pre processor like Tag McLaren. The company isn't in business anymore so on eBay you can get a legacy DTS that was $3k for $300. You have fantastic subs source speakers and TV but if I'm being honest your receiver will let it all down and you can do a lot better for what they cost. Receivers use cheap as chips components and power supplies and transformers and sound thin and reedy and awful for music. If you do some backwards engineering and open them up its scary how much they skimp it's all about bells and whistles. You'll get much better sound and brawn for both music and films if you go pre power or active.
+Justin Hunting For sure my AVR is the weakest link, but it demonstrates a point. It doesn't sound awful, or I wouldn't have it in my room. I would like to step up to a preamp/amp at some point, but I'm not in audio hell as it is, it actually sounds pretty decent overall. I'm running 190 watts in my AVR and 2200 watts peak (1000 RMS) in the subs (dual PB-2000). Most people would say it sounds great, but of course there is always room for improvement. Would it sound better with 125 watts per channel over 7 channels? I sure hope so, and I'm sure I'll find the opportunity to test that theory. I'll be looking into active speakers, but I do wonder about interchangeability. I like to swap out speakers, hard to do if the amp is built in. The simplicity is intriguing. Thanks for your thoughts!
You're welcome. I used to be a hi fi salesman so apologies if I was being in any way pushy. I have heard this full range dilemna time and time again from customers with receivers but never pre pro power amps. Receivers are plastered with the latest codecs and blue tooth and multi room and atmos USB and streaming and all the rest of it. My pre amp processor has nothing at all in the way of features. No atmos, no 4K pass through, no muti room blue tooth or audysey. People are like why did you pay $7000 for a pre amp with no features? Then I turn it on and they're blown across the room. You don't need 7.1 or atmos it's all gimmicks. There's a handful of discs with 7.1 on it and DTSMA is about the way it's mixed rather than the format. So lossy is just as good as lossless. If you want to swap speakers regularly then get a used TAG pre power. As nice as your receiver is it will be the difference between being in the film and watching the film through a window.
+Justin Hunting No worries! I like the feedback. I'm still learning too, I think we all are, it's the nature of the beast. My channel is designed for people just getting into the hobby, so if I go saying you need $7,000 pre amps to find happiness, a lot of people would lose interest. I have no doubt their value and performance, but for just getting into it, it helps to stay somewhat sane on budget.
in my setting I have option audyssey L& R, used or not used audyssey Flat use or not used and manual used or not, so not use first 2 use only
manual??
Which AVR?
Marantz AV7005
no update on firmware or software for the use second subwoofer jack on back unit
A splitter is fine to use, I use it on my X-2000 with good results. Some people even do that with dual subwoofer outputs. That's an older AVR, which explains why the menu didn't sound right to me. Kind of confusing. I'd try the different "Flat" options and pick the one that sounds best.
thank you
Hello...
Can you please let me know...how i have to put it on ...i have double jbl l7 front 2x 900watt ans 2x jbl l7 back 450watt 4x jbl l3 200watt 1x 400watt jbl center..and 3x 1000watt sub..
Is 80 hz good ? And small only front big.. or do you have a other idee?
Its on youtube .... kobus zwaneveld..
I kind of depends on what your subs are and what their response curve looks like. Running them as "Small", your basically dictating when the subs come in, not so much what you are taking away from the mains. 80 hertz is probably best, but if your subs get louder as the frequency goes up, which is common, they might be overdone with everything at 80 hertz. I have lowered the center channel to reduce boominess with certain subs, setting the center at 60 hertz with everything else at 90 hertz or higher, just to shave off some of that response. Kind of a work around.
If your subs are true flat response subs, you can run the crossover pretty high with no ill effect if everything is balanced.
If you set your fronts as Large and LFE only (not LFE+Main), you will deprive your subs a lot of bass signal that they would otherwise get when set to Small. You can use LFE + Main, and set them to Large too, but that really depends on what kind of amplification you're working with. Generally, your gear will run cooler when set to small.
www.subwoofer101.com/setting-up-your-gear/large-vs-small-lfe-main-double-bass-etc/
I have RF-7ii Klipsch. And RC-64ii
You can run the crossover at 60 hertz if your amp has good power, but keep in mind the subs will be cut off pretty sharply above 60 hertz, while the Klipsch will still get signal (just less) all the way down if crossed at 80 hertz. For sure, if it sounds better to you at 60 hertz, stick with it. Better to make your ears happy rather than mine. =)
So long as the amp has the power, the Klipsch should have the ability to deliver solid dynamics @ 60 hertz. What I don't know for certain is which would be more dynamic between 60-80 hertz. I would suspect the sub has more dynamics in that range, but I just don't know for certain. In some cases, the sub might be too dynamic in that range, making 60 hertz sound better. Which subs are you running?
ALSO SET YOUR CROSSOVERS FROM EACH SPEAKER TO IT SPECS ! SO THE LOWS GO TO WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO GO AAS WELL AS THE HIGHS . SET BOOKSHELVES TO SMALL AND TOWERS TO LARGE WITH PROPPER CROSSOVER SETTINGS . ALL EXTRA BASS GOES TO THE SUB. EVEN MY CV AT 12,S SOUND GOOD ALONG WITH MY PSB BOOKSHEVES !! YAAA
You have no clue what your talking about!...having said that, great videos & everything you talked about is very true! Keep em' comin. Haha
No I don’t know that’s why I came to this video
The dog approves.
You have no clue what your talking about!...having said that, great videos & everything you talked about is very true! Keep em' comin. Thx
+Tim Diebert I'd love it if you elaborated. I don't want to give false information.
troll fail attempt 100%
if he's wrong? which he isn't, then tell us stereo wanna be
My towers are rated to 25hz and each have their own 300 watt amp and 4 6.5 subs ill have to play around a bit and see which I like the sound of more
Which towers and which subs are you running?
Subwoofer 101 my towers are infinity overture 3's and single sub is velodyne ct 120
You have great towers, but I really think you'd appreciate better subs to get down to a "substantial" 20 hertz. I think the difference would be undeniable, having true full range.
I've played with the CT-100, I know it's smaller than the CT-120, but I think you'd be much better served with a pair of PB-2000's or better from this list. Dual PB-1000's would be a good Improvement too, but your towers deserve at least the PB-2000's in my opinion: www.subwoofer101.com/best-subwoofers/
I inherited this system from my dad is svs subs were in the budget i would run them i recently got my hands on a ct100 for 60 used this past weekend for my computer setup but for now 1500 worth of subs is not in the cards for me
again move your subs your tunabilty is beat before you begin move then subs to corners and get sony hi res audio receiver move subswoofers room acoustics hello
I agree
Sony sucks lol