@@timothymulholland7905 its great but its probably not patentable as :- no inventive step, nor novelle, but certainly practical though! Save few wingtips and egos!
It’s physics, maths and engineering. Imagine it, design it, make it, test it, break it. Every time you build something new the whole world moves forward. I can see Trent has Mike Patey’s philosophy in his blood.😮 Brilliant idea!
Brilliant, Trent! When I transition to tail wheel, you'll get a call -- "where's the kart?" Here's an idea to take it up a notch: To prepare pilots for busier, complex airports, chalk out taxiways with correct signs and hold-short lines, and runway. Have them work the radios (walkie talkies) with their instructor as they follow instructions as if from a ground traffic controller. Get all that ATC nervousness solved on the ground and maybe reduce incursions/screwups.
Now that would be a real game of Chance... Where you can learn about all the possible screw-ups by pilots, ATC, and other offending public personal, wild animals or humans causing runway incursions or unsafe conditions...! Like Do Not Land...! Do not take Off...! and get your licence suspended by the FAA if you live to give it to them... Not such a bad idea of a board game or even a mock-up like of an airport that can be a teaching tool for being around them and protocols of airports...
What a cool experiment! Maybe you could team up with Mike Patey and Best Tugs to create a production version. It would also be cool to bring a few to AirVenture - you could charge people like $10-20 for a quick session (and time trial course with a big leaderboard) putting all the money toward a cool aviation charity.
I love it! Before I got my tailwheel rating I used to get in trouble at work for "Playing" with the pallet jacks, I ride them around work in both tricycle and tailwheel config... my co-workers were asking why I needed a rating to fly tailwheels... so I had them stand on a pallet jack and ride it like a scooter in both directions and they understood the problem pretty quick.
I agree , would be great fun for any and all who follow and are enthusiastic about STOL . Also great tool to be used as encouragement booster to those who are contemplating mastery of any type tailwheel aircraft !
As someone who fully believes that simulators are the best way to get started learning to drive/pilot a vehicle of any kind, I think you just found the perfect middle ground step before moving to the real thing! At least for the specific path of flying taildragger aircraft anyways. I hope this idea picks up steam, who knows how many planes or even lives getting this kinda practice could save over the years. You just moved the world forward ;)
I think that would help teaching tailwheel a lot. The biggest thing people do is get on the brake when they just want rudder, or nail the rudder and forget the brake. If you can tune it such that it teaches when to use what, that would help a lot with ground handling. I think the next step would be to put a spring on one side of the tailwheel to bias the system. That would simulate the airplane wanting to weather-vain on the ground or perhaps help people understand that it will need some right rudder on take off. The idea is once people have decent ground handling, then put a wrench in the system to enforce that you must keep it straight even if it's fighting with you.
Make one of the springs on the tail wheel adjustable. Make it remote controlled or to just randomly adjust on its own. Take a look at AeroConversions trim system for inspiration on making an adjustable spring. Add motor to that trim syatem to turn it, a micro controller to actuate the motor and you have a solution.
An electronic compass feeding a high-torque servo connected to another set of springs, could provide that side-bias that flips as you turn the thing around, just like a crosswind would do.
Great idea! But it's missing one important part: a control stick. The stick needn't be connected to anything, but it must be movable in all directions. Reason 1: To teach proper use of ailerons. Stick into the wind not only helps keep the upwind wing down, the downwind aelerson acts as an airbrake to pull the wing back and prevent the ground loop. Hence the old-timer's expression: "Steer for the ditch!" 2. Students need to be taught to taxi with back stick when taxiing into the wind to prevent a nose over, and forward stick when taxiing downwind. 3. Students also need to be taught to use back stick during the initial takeoff roll and then forward stick to bring the tail up and prevent the plane from lifting off at too low an airspeed. Anyway, that's a great training device that will help new tail dragger pilots to build confidence.(just add a stick)
Great idea Trent. Proof it works is in the video and for the newbie pilots with the fear of ground loops this would definetly take the edge off. I wish you luck.
I made one of these in 1998. It had a lawnmower engine and a prop, simply because it was less expensive. I built it because I was struggling learning to takeoff in a drifter with only a few seconds of practice every circuit, it was costing more than I could afford. After an hour so in my contraption, my instructor was blown away with my efforts on my next lesson. Saved me hundreds back then. I imagine he didn’t like that. Every tailwheel school should have one.
Trent you have a great proof of concept. There is a need for this but you should partner with the Patty's. With Best Tug components it could probably be programmed to react and feel more realistic. It would also likely double as a tug for tail draggers
After this, Trent comes up with a rig to practice backing up small travel trailers. Seriously…I think this is a great idea…and I’m not even a pilot. When I learned to ride my first motorcycle, a class I took also taught high speed BRAKING techniques. 60mph, and lock ‘em up. How?~. The bike was in a cage…with 4 outrigger legs., that prevented a wipeout. So you could PRACTICE the sensation, the operation…without an accident or bike damage. That was in the early 1980s.
Excellent idea. Another great way to learn tail wheel is to fly WWI and WWII flight sims. I did that for several years before going to get my tailwheel endorsement. I ended up getting my endorsement in just 2.7 hrs. I attribute that quick endorsement time to my simulator experience.
The 2nd aircraft I ever flew while taking flight training was a 1946 Aeronca Champ. My old instructor in NJ explained that he figured out why so many northern folks have an initial problem with mastering ground steering which is critical in a tail wheel plane. He said all of us grew up using sleds in the snow in winter and sleds steer with your feet exactly backwards from aircraft on the ground. He always wondered why his students up north always pushed the right rudder pedal while drifting off the runway to the right. His FL students never did this and he finally figured it out. It was all the muscle memory we built up pushing on the right to go left.
Love it! Modification suggestion: Airplanes have wings that add momentum and some dampening. Try adding some weights to the ends of a bar representing the inertia of the wings. Should make it more stable, and also maybe more realistic when it gets really crooked. Might not be able to ride in tight places though.
^^^David makes an important point.^^^ The inertia of the wing mass affects handling. Even the weight of fuel in wing tanks can make a significant difference. I've taxiied tailwheel airplanes with the wings removed, and the steering is quite sporty that way! It's wildly different than with the wings attached. I think adding a vertical stabilizer would have some damping effect and allow crosswinds and tailwinds to come into play too. Probably the best simulator would be an old unairworthy airplane without wings, or spoiled wings, but this prototype looks like a fun toy, and way more practical. I'd suggest putting a tail on it complete with elevator and rudder so you can fly the tail. Wheeee!
Hailey’s remark at 12:55 “ I’m staring at you like a target” is a interesting piece for anybody flying a tail wheel airplane, as your focal point is down the runway and your feet are doing whatever dance is needed to keep the airplane pointed towards that target.
Trent, this is an awesome idea. I really like the way you have incorporated some adjustability (or planned for it in future) to simulate different CG’s or longer/shorter coupling. Here’s a couple of further ideas: lower the main wheels to create a sitting attitude more similar to that of a TW aircraft and/or put some kind of fake panel in front of the operator’s view to better simulate the impaired sight picture you get when taxiing, 3 point landing or high speed roll out from a wheel landing. The latter being a precursor to many ground loop incidents.
Having flown short coupled tailwheel aircraft(experimental), learning to dance on the pedals quickly yet lightly is important in staying ahead of the aircraft. Perhaps an adjustable tailwheel locator would be ideal so someone could learn on a less squirrelly setup and then move the tailwheel forward to simulate the high performance short coupled taildragger. Modifying the device for an adjustable tailwheel location should be relatively straightforward.
Great idea, I’m a taildragger driver myself. Don’t take this as a knock, but I wonder if the differential is accentuating the yaw/groundloop. Coz when you “choke” the inside wheel w/ the brake, the differential may be transferring that torque to the “less-choked” un/less braked wheel. Kinda like regular differentials in snow. Just a small detail, otherwise this trainer is a good idea / good execution. And FUN…😂
@@DarylOster Depends on the motors. In a brushless DC motor, the controller sequences the windings (aka it's electronically commutated), and motors connected in parallel to the same controller will move in lock-step until one exceeds its holding torque at which time it'll violently judder around. If it's old-school brushed DC motors, then yes they're self-commutating and can be parallelled, but it's still not same torque because of back-EMF; whichever one is running slower will produce more torque. I've done this and it's fine for a diff-less rear-wheel-drive kart which just has minor speed differences while turning, I'm not sure how well it'd work on this loopy madness. The best approach here might be two BLDC motors with two separate controllers just running from the same potbox.
@@myself248 i have seen vesc based speed controllers with canbus, that setup could drive both motors, one with the throttle-box connected to it playing master controller, canbus link to the second controller playing secondary and the two can lockstep throttle input.. this would be for brushless motors, though
The idea is fantastic !! I’ve been in the right seat of a tail wheel and had the chance to taxi. Some high speed taxi anyway from Tri-cycle to tail wheel is a huge difference! So the idea of a trainer is a really good one!!
Longer wheel span and possibly a wider front wheel footprint. Great job Trent. definitely on to something here. Everyone benefits when an idea is created and sourced to exhibit a potential learning tool.
Trent I’d totally take a parts list for this. It would be so much fun to send a pair of these up and down a course during the local airport open house! 🎉
I would be interested in the parts list as well, might be a great EAA project. I am a tailwheel CFI, would be interested in trying something like it out.
@@briancase1669 I was thinking the same; fun EAA project. I got looking at electric differential go-kart/golf cart kits. Looks like $500-$600 for the motor, differential, axles with brake rotors, and motor controller. Seems not all kits have the brake pistons and calipers, and batteries and charging equipment would have to be sourced.
I never made it to where inputs were reflex rather than concentration. This could definitely get you there. And being a little over sensitive is probably a good thing.
Aww maaaan. I've been sitting on this idea for about 13 years. But of all the people who might get there before me, I'm glad it was you. You've done an amazing job of it, and I love the application of it (I just wanted to do it because it would be fun.)
you could also get and old retired fuselage and use that, hang wieght on the front all that jazz . The entire concept is great. I trained in tail wheels in my basic flight training
Dude, Awesome. Great proof of concept. I've had a mental design of something similar. My mental design was a bit closer to an actual airplane because I was thinking of having it prop driven and give it a tail with control surfaces so you could actually lift it up and then also have the rudder help with turning. I was out flying a J-3 cub this weekend and we mainly used the rudder to take us around corners rather than brakes. So we had to keep the wind speed over the rudder high enough to have some effect.
I fixed the ground looping on my RC airplanes by Re-locating the main gear under the CG. (A ground loop on a tail dragger, or conventional landing gear aircraft, is primarily caused by the center of gravity being located behind the main wheels )
I don't know think it would be practical it would be for full scale, but for RC tail draggers, lots of toe in on the main gear is the magic formula. By "lots" I mean up to 20 or 30 degrees per side (on grass, less works ok on asphalt) Yes, moving the main gear back helps too, but can make you prone to prop strikes. I'd guess on full scale it would eat/destroy tires (and lengthen take-off runs unacceptably) but on RC planes it works great! Whatever you do, make sure you don't have any unintentional toe out caused by tolerances or slightly bent main gear. You'll be shocked how much difference changing the toe makes.
Like the helicopter sim I built it is not a realistic environment. As a brand new pilot I bought a Talorcraft and the guy did a few circuits with me and sent me on my way. The first landing went okay but the second one, when I got home did not. Luckily for me the runway at CFB Cold Lake was 100 ft wide and I lucked out and didnt break anyhing. Now I'm scared of my new debt I have taken on. A club member saw me and took me out showing me how to drive the monster. All we did was drive, up and down the runway, left side, right side and gradually increasing the speed. You don't need to fly a taildragger only drive it. In the last 45 years I have checked out a dozen guys using this technique. Easy peasy. Thanks Hal.
Hi Ray, Totally agree - this is the right way. I did exactly the same thing, but with a VR flight sim (DCS World) and very good rudder pedals. The goal is to program the connection between the eyes, the brain, the butt, and the feet.
This is exactly how my dad taught me in his Taylorcraft (L-2). All I had was the rudder and we progressed from slow taxi to fast taxi to tail up to nearly flying. Had to be able to move the airplane on command to the right side, left side, trap the centerline, etc. I don't know how other CFIs do it, but every one of my dad's students started this way, whether they were a new pilot or an experienced pilot getting a rating.
love it, love it, love it!!! From and instructional side possibly a remote for the instructor overseeing the run to be able to input a small amount of one sided braking to simulate wind gust.. Having the ability to add gym weights to the nose or tail to change CG another possibility, a nose roller safety wheel with a pressure switch that if it touches down a horn sounds to be a prop strike alert.. Placing all students in this I think would improve taxi practices by have them get used to rudder pedal steering, because how many times have you scene a newer student start turning the yoke to steer. Another factor, a headset with flight traffic recording playing and engine noise volume connected to throttle input, for sensory task loading also.. The ideas are endless on how to upgrade the concept. But the biggest thing is you have built the foundation to grow this and that is awesome..
Great idea!As a nosewheel guy who's scared of tailwheel taxiing I'd love to try it. I like the idea of adding angular momentum weight to simulate wings. If someone wanted to spend some money and time developing this into a real product, I think that some sensors, some actuators, some software, a microcomputer, some PID loops could tune this to really simulate it well. Maybe even have different configuration files to simulate anything from a Kitfox to a DC3.
This is a great idea! Nice work on the design and build. I really like your idea of being able to extend the tail wheel further out. This would help with it being so squirrely. You could probably modify your prototype just to see the difference in stability. I love it Trent!!
I have a Europa monowheel, so brake's are not used for steering only rudder pedals steer also it rocks side to side on the outriggers a little. My Dad was a long time commercial pilot who mostly flew tailwheel aircraft, he said "the brakes fix your mistakes" they don't on my monowheel Europa though. Great idea Trent!
Thanks for putting another idea in my head of a toy I need! I didn't have any trouble transitioning from a nose wheel to a tail wheel even if it was a kitfox model 2. Great idea.
Super cool, taller tires will help it feel and react more realistic, especially when you hit be brakes to hard then the tail will come up. and the side loading will really be more realistic! Love it.
Stunning idea. Don’t give upon it. I would suggest moving the tailwheel back a bit so that the ratio of ‘main gear width and distance back to the tailwheel' is closer to that of the average tail dragger.
Fun. I seem to remember a sofa version on UA-cam. I'm with you that you really need to experience it - the only way to learn. When you get it I think that you make much smaller corrections a lot EARLIER
So glad you put this out there. This is a great tool for training. Once I get my CFI, I want to focus on making more TW pilots. When I get to that point, I’d love to get a parts list to be able to make one of these. -Glenn Roberts
The differential is brilliant. I wanted to make one of these 20 years ago but I couldn’t think of a way to make it prop (air) driven without being hazardous. Suggestion for version 2 from a CFI with 3,000 hr dual given tailwheels and an AE degree. 1 longer tail moment replicating the dimensions of a piper pacer. 2 move cg forward to a comparable ratio to a piper pacer (might need a couple ballast boxes to adjust for rider weights like a 2 seat glider). IMO a pacer is a good bench mark for tailwheel skill and being short coupled it’s an easy airplane to replicate.
A longer chassis and an adjustable seat, as well as optimizing the pedal geometry and the control input/output ratios and I think you'd be pretty close to a commercially viable training aid. I also think it's good to make it adjustable, being able to start someone off in it set up to be easier than the real plane to teach the concepts, and then turn up the difficulty to hone their skills.
It’s extremely and extraordinary when a persons or persons go outta their way to try to make flying safer!! Says a lot about the persons!!!! Thanks TRENT!!!!!:-). Your becoming a pioneer more so now then Ever in aviation and more……:-)😊again Thank you and best of luck!!! Faithful fan.
A cowling reference in front of you can detect very small changes in direction by sighting to something well in front of the aircraft, seems like that is missing, maybe the camera mount worked for that visual reference.
Nice work Trent! The early birds only had brakes on one side. The instructor was always reluctant to give up his brakes to the student. I’ve seen really good pilots not be able to handle tail wheel.
It does look like really good prototype for learning tail-wheel airplane to prevent ground-loop and keep it straight with kicking to rudder and also effect of the brakes. I definitely like that idea 😊✈️
Such a grate idea.!! might have to make adjustable sliding weight on the front so you can adjust the sensitivity of the prop strike "function" based on the weight of the rider.
Trent, I have to tell you, that I have really enjoyed watching your videos and the joy of almost being in the right seat with you. And I have to say, I love the paint scheme on the Kit Fox. And the colors are so perfect. But I believe the paint scheme should be a Trent Palmer trade mark, cause it fits your character so well. Can't wait to see what you do with your new plane!
As a civilian interested in flying, learning how to manipulate the rudder is one of the most challenging things I worry about learning. (not to mention navigation!!!) Trent this is an AWESOME idea, and i would love to get some "flight" time on your rig!!!
When I was 6, I had a "coaster" with center pivot steering in front, similar to a wagon. With my feet on the front cross member, to turn right I pushed my left foot forward and to turn left I pushed my right foot forward. Your cart would go a long ways to help retrain my muscle memory. Good Invention!
Great idea, If you can tune it to feel like a Pitts and switch to a Cub. This is something that is needed for the beginner and someone experienced that has not flown for a while. I think it would be cool to add a flight simulator video screen in a small dash with a wind shield to force the student to look side to side while taxiing. This would be the advanced model. I believe your taildragger simulator would be a great tool to be used in flight training schools.
That is awesome!! I thought about taking my Affordaplane (not going to finish) and converting it to a trainer, just enough wing to get into ground effect to do some tail wheel practice. This thing is not only a useful training tool but it looks like a lot of fun too.
Great idea. I'd make one larger and perhaps even a two seater, but especially a device with larger tires so you could practice at higher speeds on grass or dirt. There are fields everywhere, but airports are often inconvenient to access, depending on where you live.
As an instructor in a venerable 1950's taildragger, I woudl absolutely love to get my hands on one of these! Haven't groundlooped yet ... but boy have I gotten close!
I learned to fly in the early '50s in a Fairchild PT-19 on a grass strip. The transition to an asphalt runway was very challenging. I later as a CFI, flew many tailwheel aircraft. Never did a ground loop, but the trickiest I remember was a Cessna 140 on asphalt.
Learned tailwheel flying in a Champ with heel brakes. I was told brakes are for run up, hold short and shut down. I like the idea and would enjoy trying it sometime.
Love it! As A CFI with a tailwheel airplane, I can immediately see the value. I'd love to buy a set of plans off of you to build one. But failing that, any info you're willing to share. This is definitely going on the winter project list.
If you're open to a configuration change, I might suggest rather than a differential, have two individual drive motors. This would have a lot of advantages and take care of one big disadvantage. I see that the differential is compounding the ground loop when you slow the inside wheel/accelerate the outside wheel. Also, with two separate motors and a simple raspberry pi controller connected to the throttle, you could have it easily simulate left turning tendency. You could even have a little rheostat that you turn up depending upon how powerful you want that left turning tendency to be. Or if you really want to step it up a level, you have a Wi-Fi controller in that where the instructor could throw in some random turning tendencies from gusts, etc. All within the capabilities of a raspberry pi
Hey Trent, The paint scheme on your new aircraft has to be iconic and recognisable. This way, we can find your videos very quickly. I can't wait to see it all come together.
That is a great idea! I saw so many ground loops when I was flying 30 years ago. We called them airplane drivers not pilots! My instructor always said stay in front of the # 1 cylinder! Getting checked out in a Stearman really helped me learn to land . That plane wasn't safe till it was tied down!
Having multiple attach points will allow some tweaking of the dynamics. You could also have a variety of stiffer spring connections or a turnbuckle in series to change the spring force and adjust the feel.
The basics of tailwheel training are often simply get in, try, over control, eventually settle down and reduce rudder walking. A better technique and one I used extensively, especially when checking pilots out in a Pitts is as follows. If the nose is going a direction you don’t desire,i,e., moving left, put in only enough right rudder pressure to STOP the unwanted trend. Then, IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ACTION, put in enough right rudder pressure to move the nose back to parallel the centerline. Do not attempt to regain the centerline unless absolutely necessary. By breaking the correction into two distinct steps, it radically reduces over controlling and rudder walking. The use of brakes for directional control, certainly for initial tailwheel checkout, is counterproductive. Brakes are for slowing an aircraft as long as it has a steerable tailwheel in good repair. The classic method of just getting in a taildragger and going for it ignores the fundamentals of directional control, puts the student, instructor and aircraft in needless peril.
Next step would be to put a small adjustable sail on the back to get the full effect of cross winds.
Next step is put a fan in place of the sail, 90 degrees from travel (helicopter tail rotor), allowing “cross-wind” to be a fully adjustable.
You mean like a rudder? 😅
I wonder if one could simulate that with differential thrust on the drive axel....
@@je1182 I mean "simulated wind" for your tail wheel to compensate for. Fully adjustable...
it would also be cool to add some wings to it so it could fly and you could practice landings and takeoffs.
As someone who struggled learning tailwheel, what you're developing here is freakin' brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Patent it, quick!
@@timothymulholland7905 its great but its probably not patentable as :- no inventive step, nor novelle, but certainly practical though! Save few wingtips and egos!
It’s physics, maths and engineering. Imagine it, design it, make it, test it, break it. Every time you build something new the whole world moves forward. I can see Trent has Mike Patey’s philosophy in his blood.😮 Brilliant idea!
Man Mike was the first person who came to mind when I saw this as well LOL!
@@Robert-Smith Copied that!
Yes agreed
You're onto something - This is a super helpful training tool - Thanks for it's introduction.
Back to work! 💪🏼
Put a roll cage on that thing, and I think we have a whole new category of motor sports.
Roll cage? I was thinking flame thrower.
@@opieshomeshopknow what you can mount to a roll cage!?
@@opieshomeshop😂
Go-karts don't need roll cages
further proof that if you give any group of men something with wheels, they will start racing it within 5 minutes
I laughed as soon as I seen the cones. I knew it was going to be timed 😂
What makes you think wheels are required??
@@M1903a4 they are not. But in this instance, the thing had wheels.
I think you need to find a way to market this! I certainly would be interested in owning one. Or at least having access to one to use.
You have the perfect name for making this comment
Brilliant, Trent! When I transition to tail wheel, you'll get a call -- "where's the kart?" Here's an idea to take it up a notch: To prepare pilots for busier, complex airports, chalk out taxiways with correct signs and hold-short lines, and runway. Have them work the radios (walkie talkies) with their instructor as they follow instructions as if from a ground traffic controller. Get all that ATC nervousness solved on the ground and maybe reduce incursions/screwups.
why wasn't this around when I was learning?
@johnfife3062 all these ideas are excellent. Often all those factors come at once and even the best get "rattled" causing screwups / incursions.
Now that would be a real game of Chance... Where you can learn about all the possible screw-ups by pilots, ATC, and other offending public personal, wild animals or humans causing runway incursions or unsafe conditions...!
Like Do Not Land...! Do not take Off...! and get your licence suspended by the FAA if you live to give it to them... Not such a bad idea of a board game or even a mock-up like of an airport that can be a teaching tool for being around them and protocols of airports...
What a cool experiment! Maybe you could team up with Mike Patey and Best Tugs to create a production version. It would also be cool to bring a few to AirVenture - you could charge people like $10-20 for a quick session (and time trial course with a big leaderboard) putting all the money toward a cool aviation charity.
I’d pay $20 for a ride for charity and bragging rights!!! Great idea!
great idea!
I second this!!
I love it! Before I got my tailwheel rating I used to get in trouble at work for "Playing" with the pallet jacks, I ride them around work in both tricycle and tailwheel config... my co-workers were asking why I needed a rating to fly tailwheels... so I had them stand on a pallet jack and ride it like a scooter in both directions and they understood the problem pretty quick.
Cool proof of concept. I see this becoming its own event at the STOL drags. 😂
I agree , would be great fun for any and all who follow and are enthusiastic about STOL . Also great tool to be used as encouragement booster to those who are contemplating mastery of any type tailwheel aircraft !
Nose wheel pilot here... I'd be in full groundloop the whole time.
As someone who fully believes that simulators are the best way to get started learning to drive/pilot a vehicle of any kind, I think you just found the perfect middle ground step before moving to the real thing! At least for the specific path of flying taildragger aircraft anyways. I hope this idea picks up steam, who knows how many planes or even lives getting this kinda practice could save over the years. You just moved the world forward ;)
That was fun to watch! A good training tool, but also a good video of pilots doing pilot things at the airport.
I think that would help teaching tailwheel a lot. The biggest thing people do is get on the brake when they just want rudder, or nail the rudder and forget the brake. If you can tune it such that it teaches when to use what, that would help a lot with ground handling. I think the next step would be to put a spring on one side of the tailwheel to bias the system. That would simulate the airplane wanting to weather-vain on the ground or perhaps help people understand that it will need some right rudder on take off. The idea is once people have decent ground handling, then put a wrench in the system to enforce that you must keep it straight even if it's fighting with you.
Make one of the springs on the tail wheel adjustable. Make it remote controlled or to just randomly adjust on its own. Take a look at AeroConversions trim system for inspiration on making an adjustable spring. Add motor to that trim syatem to turn it, a micro controller to actuate the motor and you have a solution.
An electronic compass feeding a high-torque servo connected to another set of springs, could provide that side-bias that flips as you turn the thing around, just like a crosswind would do.
Great idea! But it's missing one important part: a control stick. The stick needn't be connected to anything, but it must be movable in all directions.
Reason 1: To teach proper use of ailerons. Stick into the wind not only helps keep the upwind wing down, the downwind aelerson acts as an airbrake to pull the wing back and prevent the ground loop. Hence the old-timer's expression: "Steer for the ditch!"
2. Students need to be taught to taxi with back stick when taxiing into the wind to prevent a nose over, and forward stick when taxiing downwind.
3. Students also need to be taught to use back stick during the initial takeoff roll and then forward stick to bring the tail up and prevent the plane from lifting off at too low an airspeed.
Anyway, that's a great training device that will help new tail dragger pilots to build confidence.(just add a stick)
And besides, it just looks awkward holding your other hand down at your side. 😊
“All of the coolest airplanes are tailwheel.”
And I took that personally…
I meant it personally… 🤣
I need on if these for Tailwheel training. Looks fun and enjoyable for lots of pilots.
I just transitioned to a tailwheel aircraft after 25 years of nose wheel planes. I’ve never had so much fun.
He’s right 😅
Great idea Trent. Proof it works is in the video and for the newbie pilots with the fear of ground loops this would definetly take the edge off. I wish you luck.
One of my favorite Trent Palmer videos so far
I made one of these in 1998. It had a lawnmower engine and a prop, simply because it was less expensive. I built it because I was struggling learning to takeoff in a drifter with only a few seconds of practice every circuit, it was costing more than I could afford. After an hour so in my contraption, my instructor was blown away with my efforts on my next lesson. Saved me hundreds back then. I imagine he didn’t like that. Every tailwheel school should have one.
That's really smart!
Trent you have a great proof of concept. There is a need for this but you should partner with the Patty's. With Best Tug components it could probably be programmed to react and feel more realistic. It would also likely double as a tug for tail draggers
After this, Trent comes up with a rig to practice backing up small travel trailers. Seriously…I think this is a great idea…and I’m not even a pilot.
When I learned to ride my first motorcycle, a class I took also taught high speed BRAKING techniques. 60mph, and lock ‘em up. How?~. The bike was in a cage…with 4 outrigger legs., that prevented a wipeout. So you could PRACTICE the sensation, the operation…without an accident or bike damage. That was in the early 1980s.
I would love to take a class like that. Going to see if there's any out there still. If not, maybe I'll build that set-up. Cheers man
Excellent idea. Another great way to learn tail wheel is to fly WWI and WWII flight sims. I did that for several years before going to get my tailwheel endorsement. I ended up getting my endorsement in just 2.7 hrs. I attribute that quick endorsement time to my simulator experience.
The 2nd aircraft I ever flew while taking flight training was a 1946 Aeronca Champ. My old instructor in NJ explained that he figured out why so many northern folks have an initial problem with mastering ground steering which is critical in a tail wheel plane. He said all of us grew up using sleds in the snow in winter and sleds steer with your feet exactly backwards from aircraft on the ground. He always wondered why his students up north always pushed the right rudder pedal while drifting off the runway to the right. His FL students never did this and he finally figured it out. It was all the muscle memory we built up pushing on the right to go left.
Tailwheel instruction will make you a better pilot. Every flight school should have one of these gadgets.
Love it! Modification suggestion: Airplanes have wings that add momentum and some dampening. Try adding some weights to the ends of a bar representing the inertia of the wings. Should make it more stable, and also maybe more realistic when it gets really crooked. Might not be able to ride in tight places though.
Disagree. I like where your head's at, but a training tool that is more difficult than the end machine is like exercising with a weight vest on.
^^^David makes an important point.^^^ The inertia of the wing mass affects handling. Even the weight of fuel in wing tanks can make a significant difference. I've taxiied tailwheel airplanes with the wings removed, and the steering is quite sporty that way! It's wildly different than with the wings attached. I think adding a vertical stabilizer would have some damping effect and allow crosswinds and tailwinds to come into play too. Probably the best simulator would be an old unairworthy airplane without wings, or spoiled wings, but this prototype looks like a fun toy, and way more practical. I'd suggest putting a tail on it complete with elevator and rudder so you can fly the tail. Wheeee!
I was thinking some kind of rudder so when you ride it in a crosswind you can learn the side load component too.
The weights could also be at the front and back? Just use cheap lead-acid batteries and there they are.
Hailey’s remark at 12:55 “ I’m staring at you like a target” is a interesting piece for anybody flying a tail wheel airplane, as your focal point is down the runway and your feet are doing whatever dance is needed to keep the airplane pointed towards that target.
I’m local to Reno and really want to try this! Got my TW last summer and this thing looks like a blast.
Trent, this is an awesome idea. I really like the way you have incorporated some adjustability (or planned for it in future) to simulate different CG’s or longer/shorter coupling. Here’s a couple of further ideas: lower the main wheels to create a sitting attitude more similar to that of a TW aircraft and/or put some kind of fake panel in front of the operator’s view to better simulate the impaired sight picture you get when taxiing, 3 point landing or high speed roll out from a wheel landing. The latter being a precursor to many ground loop incidents.
Extend the tail wheel back a couple ft and it will be less squirrley. Looks like fun!
Having flown short coupled tailwheel aircraft(experimental), learning to dance on the pedals quickly yet lightly is important in staying ahead of the aircraft. Perhaps an adjustable tailwheel locator would be ideal so someone could learn on a less squirrelly setup and then move the tailwheel forward to simulate the high performance short coupled taildragger.
Modifying the device for an adjustable tailwheel location should be relatively straightforward.
Great idea, I’m a taildragger driver myself. Don’t take this as a knock, but I wonder if the differential is accentuating the yaw/groundloop. Coz when you “choke” the inside wheel w/ the brake, the differential may be transferring that torque to the “less-choked” un/less braked wheel. Kinda like regular differentials in snow. Just a small detail, otherwise this trainer is a good idea / good execution. And FUN…😂
I think you are correct. Stop one wheel on a differential and the other wheel turns twice as fast...
That's an astute observation. Two separate motors and an open axle would still let it accelerate and steer, but without the torque transfer effect.
@@myself248 2 motors running on one controller (same torque to both wheels)...
@@DarylOster Depends on the motors.
In a brushless DC motor, the controller sequences the windings (aka it's electronically commutated), and motors connected in parallel to the same controller will move in lock-step until one exceeds its holding torque at which time it'll violently judder around.
If it's old-school brushed DC motors, then yes they're self-commutating and can be parallelled, but it's still not same torque because of back-EMF; whichever one is running slower will produce more torque. I've done this and it's fine for a diff-less rear-wheel-drive kart which just has minor speed differences while turning, I'm not sure how well it'd work on this loopy madness.
The best approach here might be two BLDC motors with two separate controllers just running from the same potbox.
@@myself248 i have seen vesc based speed controllers with canbus, that setup could drive both motors, one with the throttle-box connected to it playing master controller, canbus link to the second controller playing secondary and the two can lockstep throttle input.. this would be for brushless motors, though
BRING THIS TO OSHKOSH!!!
Trent Palmer X Best Tugs collab
Great idea. Mr Patey's team could put those all over the country.
great idea.
This was my first thought they already have the supplies with the electronics and the manufacturing infrastructure
Dude! That's moving mankind forward. Great to see the progress.
Trent, this is awesome! Thank you for all of your efforts and contributions to aviation safety!
You're a great videographer, terrific pilot....but now an inventor, engineer and educator.
One of your best. And, it will spread and help pilots.
The idea is fantastic !! I’ve been in the right seat of a tail wheel and had the chance to taxi. Some high speed taxi anyway from Tri-cycle to tail wheel is a huge difference! So the idea of a trainer is a really good one!!
Longer wheel span and possibly a wider front wheel footprint. Great job Trent. definitely on to something here. Everyone benefits when an idea is created and sourced to exhibit a potential learning tool.
Trent I’d totally take a parts list for this. It would be so much fun to send a pair of these up and down a course during the local airport open house! 🎉
I would be interested in the parts list as well, might be a great EAA project. I am a tailwheel CFI, would be interested in trying something like it out.
@@briancase1669 I was thinking the same; fun EAA project. I got looking at electric differential go-kart/golf cart kits. Looks like $500-$600 for the motor, differential, axles with brake rotors, and motor controller. Seems not all kits have the brake pistons and calipers, and batteries and charging equipment would have to be sourced.
I never made it to where inputs were reflex rather than concentration. This could definitely get you there. And being a little over sensitive is probably a good thing.
Aww maaaan. I've been sitting on this idea for about 13 years. But of all the people who might get there before me, I'm glad it was you. You've done an amazing job of it, and I love the application of it (I just wanted to do it because it would be fun.)
A very creative way to teach the inputs necessary to diminish the ground loop for beginning tail wheel pilots..
Great idea! Lengthen the wheelbase about a meter, it will nake it i little less squirrelly, but it would vvmbe an EXCELLENT training tool.
you could also get and old retired fuselage and use that, hang wieght on the front all that jazz . The entire concept is great. I trained in tail wheels in my basic flight training
Really good concept. I love it when people think outside the box and come up with new ways to do things. This is great!
Dude, Awesome. Great proof of concept. I've had a mental design of something similar. My mental design was a bit closer to an actual airplane because I was thinking of having it prop driven and give it a tail with control surfaces so you could actually lift it up and then also have the rudder help with turning. I was out flying a J-3 cub this weekend and we mainly used the rudder to take us around corners rather than brakes. So we had to keep the wind speed over the rudder high enough to have some effect.
I fixed the ground looping on my RC airplanes by Re-locating the main gear under the CG. (A ground loop on a tail dragger, or conventional landing gear aircraft, is primarily caused by the center of gravity being located behind the main wheels )
Can i ask why though? I fly my RC 2.1m wingspan carbon cub without any ground looping issues
@@r1m.dog78 your cg is probably close to the main wheels
Ya kinda have to have the cg behind the mains on a taildragger, your engine/prop will thank you
I don't know think it would be practical it would be for full scale, but for RC tail draggers, lots of toe in on the main gear is the magic formula.
By "lots" I mean up to 20 or 30 degrees per side (on grass, less works ok on asphalt)
Yes, moving the main gear back helps too, but can make you prone to prop strikes.
I'd guess on full scale it would eat/destroy tires (and lengthen take-off runs unacceptably) but on RC planes it works great!
Whatever you do, make sure you don't have any unintentional toe out caused by tolerances or slightly bent main gear.
You'll be shocked how much difference changing the toe makes.
I wanted something like that when I was learning tailwheel!
A problem that has existed forever this is how it gets addressed........experimentation to solution. most excellent!
Like the helicopter sim I built it is not a realistic environment. As a brand new pilot I bought a Talorcraft and the guy did a few circuits with me and sent me on my way. The first landing went okay but the second one, when I got home did not. Luckily for me the runway at CFB Cold Lake was 100 ft wide and I lucked out and didnt break anyhing. Now I'm scared of my new debt I have taken on. A club member saw me and took me out showing me how to drive the monster. All we did was drive, up and down the runway, left side, right side and gradually increasing the speed. You don't need to fly a taildragger only drive it. In the last 45 years I have checked out a dozen guys using this technique. Easy peasy. Thanks Hal.
Hi Ray, Totally agree - this is the right way. I did exactly the same thing, but with a VR flight sim (DCS World) and very good rudder pedals. The goal is to program the connection between the eyes, the brain, the butt, and the feet.
This is exactly how my dad taught me in his Taylorcraft (L-2). All I had was the rudder and we progressed from slow taxi to fast taxi to tail up to nearly flying. Had to be able to move the airplane on command to the right side, left side, trap the centerline, etc. I don't know how other CFIs do it, but every one of my dad's students started this way, whether they were a new pilot or an experienced pilot getting a rating.
love it, love it, love it!!! From and instructional side possibly a remote for the instructor overseeing the run to be able to input a small amount of one sided braking to simulate wind gust.. Having the ability to add gym weights to the nose or tail to change CG another possibility, a nose roller safety wheel with a pressure switch that if it touches down a horn sounds to be a prop strike alert.. Placing all students in this I think would improve taxi practices by have them get used to rudder pedal steering, because how many times have you scene a newer student start turning the yoke to steer. Another factor, a headset with flight traffic recording playing and engine noise volume connected to throttle input, for sensory task loading also.. The ideas are endless on how to upgrade the concept. But the biggest thing is you have built the foundation to grow this and that is awesome..
Great idea!As a nosewheel guy who's scared of tailwheel taxiing I'd love to try it. I like the idea of adding angular momentum weight to simulate wings. If someone wanted to spend some money and time developing this into a real product, I think that some sensors, some actuators, some software, a microcomputer, some PID loops could tune this to really simulate it well. Maybe even have different configuration files to simulate anything from a Kitfox to a DC3.
This is a great idea! Nice work on the design and build. I really like your idea of being able to extend the tail wheel further out. This would help with it being so squirrely. You could probably modify your prototype just to see the difference in stability. I love it Trent!!
I have a Europa monowheel, so brake's are not used for steering only rudder pedals steer also it rocks side to side on the outriggers a little. My Dad was a long time commercial pilot who mostly flew tailwheel aircraft, he said "the brakes fix your mistakes" they don't on my monowheel Europa though. Great idea Trent!
This is awesome Trent! I can see this making some good pilots better! Could definitely see it in schools!
Thanks for putting another idea in my head of a toy I need! I didn't have any trouble transitioning from a nose wheel to a tail wheel even if it was a kitfox model 2. Great idea.
Super cool, taller tires will help it feel and react more realistic, especially when you hit be brakes to hard then the tail will come up. and the side loading will really be more realistic! Love it.
V2 - dual motor with a blending of the throttle to add the yaw that the prop wash on the rudder adds to the dynamic.
Looks like a blast, as well as a perfect training aid. Perfect duo!
Stunning idea. Don’t give upon it. I would suggest moving the tailwheel back a bit so that the ratio of ‘main gear width and distance back to the tailwheel' is closer to that of the average tail dragger.
Fun. I seem to remember a sofa version on UA-cam. I'm with you that you really need to experience it - the only way to learn. When you get it I think that you make much smaller corrections a lot EARLIER
So glad you put this out there. This is a great tool for training.
Once I get my CFI, I want to focus on making more TW pilots. When I get to that point, I’d love to get a parts list to be able to make one of these.
-Glenn Roberts
This is a better option than a simulator. Absolutely amazing way to train. Thank you
The differential is brilliant. I wanted to make one of these 20 years ago but I couldn’t think of a way to make it prop (air) driven without being hazardous.
Suggestion for version 2 from a CFI with 3,000 hr dual given tailwheels and an AE degree.
1 longer tail moment replicating the dimensions of a piper pacer.
2 move cg forward to a comparable ratio to a piper pacer (might need a couple ballast boxes to adjust for rider weights like a 2 seat glider).
IMO a pacer is a good bench mark for tailwheel skill and being short coupled it’s an easy airplane to replicate.
This is awesome. Great idea brought to completion and with a few refinements could be a fantastic training tool. Great job Trent!!
A longer chassis and an adjustable seat, as well as optimizing the pedal geometry and the control input/output ratios and I think you'd be pretty close to a commercially viable training aid. I also think it's good to make it adjustable, being able to start someone off in it set up to be easier than the real plane to teach the concepts, and then turn up the difficulty to hone their skills.
It’s extremely and extraordinary when a persons or persons go outta their way to try to make flying safer!! Says a lot about the persons!!!! Thanks TRENT!!!!!:-). Your becoming a pioneer more so now then
Ever in aviation and more……:-)😊again Thank you and best of luck!!! Faithful fan.
A cowling reference in front of you can detect very small changes in direction by sighting to something well in front of the aircraft, seems like that is missing, maybe the camera mount worked for that visual reference.
Nice work Trent! The early birds only had brakes on one side. The instructor was always reluctant to give up his brakes to the student. I’ve seen really good pilots not be able to handle tail wheel.
It does look like really good prototype for learning tail-wheel airplane to prevent ground-loop and keep it straight with kicking to rudder and also effect of the brakes. I definitely like that idea 😊✈️
That's dope. I wish I had had one when I was learning. I could for sure use something like that to refresh.
Such a grate idea.!! might have to make adjustable sliding weight on the front so you can adjust the sensitivity of the prop strike "function" based on the weight of the rider.
GENIUS!!!!
What a great idea!!!
as a tool for flight training definately has potential great idea
Trent, I have to tell you, that I have really enjoyed watching your videos and the joy of almost being in the right seat with you.
And I have to say, I love the paint scheme on the Kit Fox. And the colors are so perfect. But I believe the paint scheme should be a Trent Palmer trade mark, cause it fits your character so well.
Can't wait to see what you do with your new plane!
As a civilian interested in flying, learning how to manipulate the rudder is one of the most challenging things I worry about learning. (not to mention navigation!!!) Trent this is an AWESOME idea, and i would love to get some "flight" time on your rig!!!
When I was 6, I had a "coaster" with center pivot steering in front, similar to a wagon.
With my feet on the front cross member, to turn right I pushed my left foot forward and to turn left I pushed my right foot forward.
Your cart would go a long ways to help retrain my muscle memory.
Good Invention!
From the worlds groundloop champion you are my hero. Great thinking.
Great idea, If you can tune it to feel like a Pitts and switch to a Cub. This is something that is needed for the beginner and someone experienced that has not flown for a while. I think it would be cool to add a flight simulator video screen in a small dash with a wind shield to force the student to look side to side while taxiing. This would be the advanced model. I believe your taildragger simulator would be a great tool to be used in flight training schools.
That is awesome!! I thought about taking my Affordaplane (not going to finish) and converting it to a trainer, just enough wing to get into ground effect to do some tail wheel practice. This thing is not only a useful training tool but it looks like a lot of fun too.
Great idea. I'd make one larger and perhaps even a two seater, but especially a device with larger tires so you could practice at higher speeds on grass or dirt. There are fields everywhere, but airports are often inconvenient to access, depending on where you live.
Love that you made this! Happy to see your idea as a reality. Less talking head and I’ll watch more of your videos.
I have ZERO tailwheel experience, but I think you have a great tool for all tailwheel schools!! I think EVERYONE would want to try ti.
At timestamp 2:00 - Holy arc sunburn, batman!
Add 5-10% additional acceleration to the right side drive wheel, to incorporate a natural left hand turning tendency.
Great idea! Thanks for sharing!
I love this! Engineer career changing to flying. I think I have to build this. Me and my buddies kids will probably love it too!
As an instructor in a venerable 1950's taildragger, I woudl absolutely love to get my hands on one of these! Haven't groundlooped yet ... but boy have I gotten close!
I learned to fly in the early '50s in a Fairchild PT-19 on a grass strip. The transition to an asphalt runway was very challenging. I later as a CFI, flew many tailwheel aircraft. Never did a ground loop, but the trickiest I remember was a Cessna 140 on asphalt.
Learned tailwheel flying in a Champ with heel brakes. I was told brakes are for run up, hold short and shut down. I like the idea and would enjoy trying it sometime.
Love it! As A CFI with a tailwheel airplane, I can immediately see the value. I'd love to buy a set of plans off of you to build one. But failing that, any info you're willing to share. This is definitely going on the winter project list.
Shoot me an email and I can send you the parts list
That thing looks really useful for training. Love the idea!
If you're open to a configuration change, I might suggest rather than a differential, have two individual drive motors. This would have a lot of advantages and take care of one big disadvantage. I see that the differential is compounding the ground loop when you slow the inside wheel/accelerate the outside wheel. Also, with two separate motors and a simple raspberry pi controller connected to the throttle, you could have it easily simulate left turning tendency. You could even have a little rheostat that you turn up depending upon how powerful you want that left turning tendency to be. Or if you really want to step it up a level, you have a Wi-Fi controller in that where the instructor could throw in some random turning tendencies from gusts, etc. All within the capabilities of a raspberry pi
Yes! That definitely would help with new TW pilots. It looks like it teaches you to not over react. Very cool.
cleverest vid you've ever done Trent - i'm not usually a fan but you've impressed me.
Hey Trent, The paint scheme on your new aircraft has to be iconic and recognisable. This way, we can find your videos very quickly. I can't wait to see it all come together.
I don't even have a flight school and I'm interested in plans to make something like this. Great video man, just great!
Awesome. Please lift the front in a 3 point stance and partially block forward view. I struggled more with where to look than rudder authority!
Great start! Keep going! It could revolutionize ground handling.
That is a great idea! I saw so many ground loops when I was flying 30 years ago. We called them airplane drivers not pilots! My instructor always said stay in front of the # 1 cylinder! Getting checked out in a Stearman really helped me learn to land . That plane wasn't safe till it was tied down!
Having multiple attach points will allow some tweaking of the dynamics. You could also have a variety of stiffer spring connections or a turnbuckle in series to change the spring force and adjust the feel.
The basics of tailwheel training are often simply get in, try, over control, eventually settle down and reduce rudder walking. A better technique and one I used extensively, especially when checking pilots out in a Pitts is as follows. If the nose is going a direction you don’t desire,i,e., moving left, put in only enough right rudder pressure to STOP the unwanted trend. Then, IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ACTION, put in enough right rudder pressure to move the nose back to parallel the centerline. Do not attempt to regain the centerline unless absolutely necessary. By breaking the correction into two distinct steps, it radically reduces over controlling and rudder walking. The use of brakes for directional control, certainly for initial tailwheel checkout, is counterproductive. Brakes are for slowing an aircraft as long as it has a steerable tailwheel in good repair. The classic method of just getting in a taildragger and going for it ignores the fundamentals of directional control, puts the student, instructor and aircraft in needless peril.