Can you build with green lumber?
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
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green lumber vs kiln dried
green lumber construction
green lumber drying time - Розваги
Fellow was building a new house in South central Missouri. He explained that he wanted hardwood floors. Head carpenter said there's a top quality hardwood mill nearby. Owner said he had found a place in California with top quality flooring. He said the cost is significantly higher but determined that he wanted the best. The construction schedule was messed up for a month or so but the flooring finally got there. The head carpenter cut the first strap, turned the board over and saw the logo for the mill nearby. It cost so much because they had to ship to California and back. The owner didn't argue with the head carpenter any more about anything.
I bet that head carpenter was you, wasn't it.
As long as they pay, they can be as dumb as they please, huh?
Just throwing it out there I have recently started watching another guy on UA-cam. He is building a log cabin with just hand tools which I had kind of originally thought that this channel was going to be. He is My Self Reliance and well worth a watch.
Rapids36 I too watch that guy. Fantastic videos
SR respects his audience and is about 1000 times wiser through self examination. Jessie wants ice cream and to be paid attention to. He is soft.
Check out SV Seeker the boat the internet built. Stark contrast. Jessie can’t form a team. Why is that?
But yet here you are, day in and day out, instead of spending time with your team. Why is that?
Common_sense_helps Because I retired from years of successful team projects, early I might add.
I don't think kiln drying is required, but I DO think drying is required.
When we built our place we allowed the milled wood to dry for almost a year before using it. Even then, the planks for the board and batton's still shrunk probably 1/4" per unit over the years. There will be shrinkage for sure, You just have to account for it, and move on.
The boards we finished for our floors were installed much later, and were allowed to dry in our garage to four years, and another two weeks in the room they were to be used in.
I was just going to say that!!! These fools talking crap about building a green timber frame house. Some of the OLDEST HOUSES ARE TIMBER FRAME from green trees hundreds of years ago, and the houses are still in better condition than EVERY 10 year old modular home! Keep up the great work guys! I cant wait to see the finished product!
Said so well guys! I have countless conversations explaining drying, checking, natural beauty with my sawmilling and slabs. I am sharing this!!! I love the beauty of knowing the story of a house or pieces you get. Great to see yall!
Jesse and Alyssa, have you considered getting a 250-500 gallon fuel tank and having your gas delivered? It is pretty common practice on farms and in rural areas. The fuel doesn't cost any more either in my experience due to the volume being purchased. You could probably find a used tank or set of tanks pretty cheap on a farm sale/auction. Some gas barrels are even on a stand so that they can be gravity fed instead of needing to be pumped.
The look on Jesses face when Bugaboo so kindly interrupted him is a joy to watch
The cat overlord demands attention!
Kiln dried lumber is stickered and run through the kiln which is both heat, moisture controlled and air flow controlled to help ensure all the sticks of lumber are as uniformly dried as possible. As a Forester involved with lumber companies, I've not seen a banded bundle approach for drying lumber.
I have a cedar barn made in 1880, the outside of it must be compared to rock instead of wood. It's water resistant and still strong after 137 years of Canada weather.
I built a timber frame in 1997 out of Douglas fere. After we moved in at night it would make small noises as it settled. The frame was coated with linseed oil before rasing the frame. We also panted the the frame with one coat of mat varnish after completion of the house. Results some minor checking and seepage of sap.
A number of problems can result from the use of green lumber. Nail “pops” - as framing members dry and shrink, gaps are created between nailed together framing members, as well as between exterior or interior sheathing and framing members. Mold can begin to grow on green lumber before it is even used in construction. Airborne mold spores are found almost everywhere, and they can easily cause mold growth on wet wood surfaces.
In exposed areas, green lumber can be difficult to paint or stain, sap within the wood oozes out and causes discoloration and gaps between members (such as fascias) can result.
As it dries, wood shrinks considerably, and is prone to both “warp” and “check” (crack). Used in construction, problems may arise including warping the underlying structure and causing structural instability. Unlike lumber which has been dried at the mill, green lumber has not been treated with any substances which are designed to promote water and insect resistance. Green lumber is more subject to rot, and it can be viewed as a buffet by insects.
More often than not, the use of green lumber for framing material comes from lack of knowledge by the end user. For buildings where the finished quality makes a difference, dry lumber is the only sensible choice.
Exactly. The facility that I work at was built in 1995 and during framing it was pouring down rain for 5 months, once it was dried in, the sheetrock was installed too soon, and lumber started to shrink and twist. There are literally 100's of nail pops here and walls that are not square. Dry kiln lumber is nice but if you dont get it put in fast and protect it, it will act like a sponge and then you have all kinds of issues.
Bryce William yeah ...Lol ok ...fella....hopefully in that nice HOT...area he continuously says he lives in doesn't reek havoc specifically when it comes to his walls...bwhahahaha
20 years ago we built a couple 12×16 sheds and a 24×48 pole barn with green rough cut 2x's and 1x's and those buildings came out super straight and square. My opinion is that green lumber is great as long as you get it built quick before it starts to dry. When I say quick I mean ASAP! Before somebody leaves it in the sun, back of the truck, not stacked neatly etc... With the pole barn we actually watered the stack of wood on the ground it to keep it wet while building with it during the week it took. They remained super straight but then again no interior finishes, heat, vapor barriers etc.. to deal with which may be why they aged so well. They were built in the spring and painted on the outside in the fall. Still look great.
In Russia they have built huge wooden churches through centuries. They used to hammer the ends of the logs instead of oiling. Hammering with the hammer side of the ax polishes the end of timber like it was lacquered, it becomes smooth like glass.
I live in a half-timbered house in germany which was built green about 150 years ago. The house is slightly changing shape depending on the season because some beams are exposed to the weather. Luckily we have plenty of craftsmen who understand their trade and know how to build in such an environment. Living there for 30 years now, we had to straighten 2 doorframes, no other issues.
I work in a sawmill and we kiln dry all our pine wood. if it is all stuck with one inch stickers the same way and it is all stacked in such a way, each and every time to ensure proper air flow while in the dry kilns. if it is done the right way, all the boards in these packs are dry to the same level. we use a 6 to 7 day drying schedule. packs are checked for moisture level during drying and at the end of their schedule. i would think the same would go for timbers as it does for 1" boards, only taking much longer to dry.
It is in every certified lumberyard I've ever been at.
Glad you made this a topic. When younger we didn't have much and used full round green spruce and fir trees as studs. That building is still standing, and those studs are straight as the day they were set. We also used the same for tripods, and those green trees were very strong.
It’s worth mentioning that the post and beam joints go together wet so they can dry together and it also tightens the peg joint. I’ve never pulled a straight peg out of an old beam!
in québec we cutting trees in the winter, never in the summer .that make a big difference , wood cracking ,dry lumber ,ect ,ect
And now I know. Thanks Professor, you rattled that off like you really know your stuff.
Jessie! Your face when bugaboo interrupted you was priceless
You also seemed way more calm once you gave in and pet bugaboo. He knew you needed his chill inducing magic touch.
Hilarious
Nice blend of milling and reflection videos
I work with kiln dried lumber for furniture. The wood is kiln dried, but, once it is taken out of the kiln and placed in a building for storage, it can absorb moisture from the air. This is why we store our lumber inside where we can keep it dry er. Our purpose is to not have it crack or warp.
Headly Lemar EMC!
Hi, and bugaboo steals the show! But on a more serious note, I'm in England, old houses were built with green oak because when it drys it's hard and near impossible to work with.
surprising how many people forget about all the old settler cabins that have lasted hundreds of years and the modern homes that have rot and only been around for a few decades
FYI since you were searching for the primer and glue if you tape the Two bottles together you will never lose one.
The majority of my family is clustered in very rural south central Kentucky, to say the least most was in the lower middle class, no money for store bought lumber. My grandparents lived in what might today be called a timber frame except there were no, or very few large pieces to the frames. Having a large circular saw blade on a wooden frame which ran off a belt attached to a tractor's side PTO was common piece of machinery everyone had which was used to make lumber for everything, it just couldn't deal with large pieces, nor could they move them if it did. Homes, barns, etc. were all made from this using mostly hickory and oak which is dominate in their forest. The lumber was used rough sawed and wet, no time for planing except for the decorative pieces, wallpaper or plaster, or both was used on interior walls, and certainly no time for drying the wood. There are many homes and barns in the area which are well over a hundred years old, and many are still very desirable to own.
I love your videos, I really appreciate the amount of time and effort you put into sharing your learning experience and the massive amount of expertise you've gained. Although my project is NOTHING like the scale of yours, everything you are sharing will be useful to me in my woodland in Wales in Britain.
This is so interesting! It is amazing to see a video which is informative. So many promise to show you something, but then you realize they have never done this before and they know nothing.
Hi from Ontario. Many thanks for speaking so beautifully about this subject. What a wealth of "hard to get" information you have put out there. You communicate so clearly.
Thanks Jessie, informative and interesting video. I am from England and we have timber frames still standing from the 13th century!
Green wood may shrink but will not necessarily twist or warp. Twist and warp are caused by the grain and stresses in the log not the drying process. Note how much kiln dried lumber is twisted or warped. If a log has stress or tension wood its lumber will warp or twist no matter how it was dried. One exception is if a green board dries on one side faster than the other side it will cup or warp toward the drier side.
Moisture content of wood is dependent on the humidity in the air. Kiln dried wood will absorb moisture sitting in a humid lumber yard then dry out after being built into a warm house. Also in a humid summer wood absorbs moisture then dries in the heating season.
a white elephant you mean Jesse, when a white elephant was born it was so revered that it was never allowed to work to pay for its keep and so the only thing you could do was gift it to another to get rid of the expense of its up keep hence the term a white elephant gift
What you guys share is so interesting and educational at the same time right down to the pegs being made of oak never considered half of it thanks. X
Same here. I have always heard that the trees for timber frame are cut in the snow before the sap rises in the spring and left to dry in the forest. The visit you had to your source of cut trees was an eye opener. I thought he was providing you with logs from last year's cut not really fresh timber. The only ugly thing about wet wood is the sap is hard on blades, but you now know that. Whatever works for you.
Thanks for editing all these videos Alyssa. :)
You two are inspirational, God Bless You both
The cat knows what's up!
Here in the Appalachian mountains we have log houses 200+ years old they was built green and when the dry the notches tighten. Nothing like ol Virginia! Well southwest Virginia anyway!!!
Bugaboo to the rescue! Saving the video from monotony!
I'm from Germany and here are a lot of timber frames. It's called Fachwerkhaus and regardless of them not being build anymore there are a lot around. Some I know date back to the 15 and 16 hundreds, but I'm sure there are much older ones around here. they were build, like you said, out of wet lumber because people needed the housing. While I think the fact that they still stand today speaks for itself there are a few problems. the biggest I know of are wood worms (because the wood isn't protected against them very good) and moisture (some of the timbers are sitting directly on the ground so the water from the ground sucks up and the wood begins to rod)
There are in fact no big warps or anything in the wood besides the natural 'not straightness'. Rich people had the money to afford straight timbers so the house looks nice and simetrical, the poor people could just afford the cheap and crooked wood, so the house doesn't look that simetrical. One interesting thing some people don't know about is that the walls (the space between the timbers in the timber frame) was often filled with a little bit of straw to give strength and was than filled up with (cow) dung
I don’t know if y’all get through all the comments on here but if you see this one, I’d love to see a saw mill series explained in this way. You’re very good at staying calm and delivering info in an easily digestible way. And you’ve recently gone from newb to pro so all that info is fresh in your head.
I totaly agree with Bugaboo!!
The 🐱 couldn't take anymore of that long diatribe.
Jesse, reading the comments here justifies the video you made about comments from watchers. Gotta love "armchair builders." That said, I thought it was the very best short lecture I've heard about green lumber, and I've been working with wood all my life. Haters just gotta hate. . . "blow it off" and keep up the great work.
Just finished watching your last upload an was about to go to bed an seen the notification now I’m up for another half hour lol but worth it I love seeing updates
The old-timers back in Europe did cut wood only at a specific time of the year and they also watched the phase of the moon , before they would cut wood for construction. When building a structure , they used a certain allowance for shrinking and so on . Working with nature and obey the rules .
cutting with the moon is just bullshit
If you put "Bullshit " on a Field , and you do it at the right moon phase , it will go in the ground real quick , and if you do it at the wrong time , the shit will lay around for the longest time . Like it or not , I have witnessed this for to many years ,it never fails .
Houses used to be drafty and not have much (if any) insulation. This meant that green lumber would dry out on the house. Using green lumber in a modern 'tight' house is a good way to start mold.
Mac - Thanks for being one of those who remember back in the good old days. Everything I said here is 100% true. I can't believe how many people attacked Me. They either were too young to know how it was, or they weren't involved in Home construction or Building Materials. Can't believe how they attack , even if they don't know what they are talking about. Prior to 1975, most homes didn't even have insulated windows.
Thanks for knowing what You are talking about.
Bert Davis You speak Factually...Non-Dried timber has massive problems, they warp just like kiln dried ones. I find it crazy that he's more bothered by his Chisels and ease of use (something you should sharpen often and replace periodically) and making his life easy. I have an Oak Framed building, the guys who built it used traditional Joint and Oak peg. They used French Green Oak that is kiln dried, obviously in its 1st few years it still moved slightly and shrank a few percent (3-4%l) but is still dimensionally stable and actually cleverly designed so where the glazing meets the shrinking is held in check in multiple dimensions. See the cross section model they gave me.
drive.google.com/file/d/1mkAfulJuHc-900InLVJ_pacc8gCPvi9B/view?usp=drivesdk
The rubber gaskets allow the glazing units to move within the frame. If it had not been Kiln dried it would have moved 20% not 3-4%... My view...If you're using softwood on a Timber frame building for structural elements you are a fool (Except if you are using Glue-Laminate composite beams).
Great video!! Answered many questions I had!!
Thanks for sharing the information and your passion. I admire what you have accomplished thus far.
Kuddos to both of you for going the natural way. I can not wait to see the finished house.
You can build with green and it will dry, reduce in size and split and twist but still be acceptable... or you can dry and build with that. Also, if you are using pine/spruce then the twisting can be managed by the frame. With oak (I am in the UK) then a drying and twisting oak member can really move all the other timbers. I dont see the need for a debate. Pays your money, takes your choice.
I was dreading this vid but glad to see only "minor" injuries! So proud of you guys.
Oh man Jesse totally has the dad look when Bugaboo interrupts lol
yes. i've been in and around beam built structures all my life. they can last forever. i find in every structure, the beams are of varied dimention, even within a single beam, and every building has curved, warped and/or twisted wood in them due to drying after construction. all that said, why are you spending so much effort milling perfectly straight, spot on material, knowing it will change dimension so much later?
Thanks for the great info on green lumber and timber framing!
You guys are totally awesome! I cannot believe you haven't built a house before.
Love your blog...build..... story.....!!! Awesome. As a child, my family (Dad, Mom, Lil sister and I built our own home. With help of others of course. It is amazing that you both work so hard to fulfil your dream together. I know the depths of your struggle. Keep up the goos work. I am hooked waiting as long as it takes to see the finished product. Ours took 12yrs so hopefully not that long for you.
I, and I'm sure everyone else, don't mind you being interrupted by Bugaboo wanting a little petting.
My newer home walls crack at 2 a.m. Cold weather and very hot weather my walls crack. It's scary in the middle of the night. Great video!
Imagine if you went to your local lumberyard and asked for a 8" x 15" x 20' beam. The only thing that would come close would be a LVL product that needed to be custom ordered. No dimensional lumber is exact. I have really enjoyed your videos. Keep Safe!!
This video was really interesting. Thanks for sharing guys!!!!
Thank you for doing this video! You just proved my point over a discussion I had with a family member on Thanksgiving! THANK YOU for documenting this!
A.K. Nesbitt, Oh my... I am now interested in what that discussion was because a lot of what he said in this video was bad information.
Love yalls videos
Have built all our family's houses except mine
Amazing y'all can still spend time together after all these months doing this
Isn't something most people can do
Excellent video,very informative and you gots love the cat.
love your work you guys am and have followed your program since you started this has to be the first time i have ever seen an owner builder upstaged by a beautiful bengal well done mike australia
That was jam full of useful information. Thank you very much. wouldn't border about the haters. They were always around, and unfortunately will be around for reasons unknown. Next I'm building my home, and the initial design was "standard" 2x4 framing. I was very inspired by various Japanese joinery videos, and felt that it is simply more than just putting two pieces of wood together. So i redesigned the whole house from bottom to the top, and it will be made post & beam. Then the commercialism of the market here ( Bulgaria, Europe) struck with the Inevitable Inevitability - i can't get beams anywhere to the specs i need, because EVERYTHING is commercialized and way over the budget. So now with this piece of information, which is just as naturally logical as it is, I did the math and it came out it will be much cheaper and effective to saw my own logs. AS Green as possible, and without nails for sure. It's too long to explain it, here. Anyway. THANK YOU for this information. The knowledge is coming in the correct form and shape, at the correct time. :)
Is there going to be a test?
When it comes to kiln dried construction lumber, they call 19% moisture content 'dry'. In timber frame construction, in order to reduce the twisting, warpage, cracking of the timber, it is best to 'box the heart wood' when the timber is cut. This way the drying process will be more even on all sides of the timber.
Thanks for the explanation.
Wow! Awesome video. You shared some good information. Your videos are entertaining and enlightening...plus addictive. I've been watching for months. Keep up the good work. Nice video editing skills as well Alyssa!
Liked you're story about the speed of drying and what you can do about it.
Good info, thanks for sharing.
That was some great information thanks for sharing.
Glad you gave Bugaboo some camera time
Great Video! Well said and thank you for sharing your research and knowledge! The information is invaluable and anyone that is interested in Timber Framing will come away with some very valuable input, if they watch and take it to heart! Thank you so very much for sharing! Timber Framing is not for the faint of heart! And also not for the 'gotta be done now' folks. It is a labor of love and endurance! God Bless!
Thanks for the book references. I'm going to check them out
Thanks for taking the time to explain your choice of materials and the methodology and sciences behind the construction of your home. These is so much history and experience behind the methods you are using that our instant cultures are oblivious to. Timber being a living material will act and react to its environmental conditions. At best, we are applying construction methods that have measured outcomes, but timber will sometimes surprise and bewilder even the most seasoned builder. On the explanation pertaining to radiant heating, I think you will find that you can used wood heating without issue as long as you maintain a stable humidity and not dry out your structure too quickly. You should also plan to oil your frame over the years to help age it to its environment. Good video.
THANK YOU! Lots to learn...
Between Facebook and You Tube I feel that I'm in a special J&A PL4L universe. I love these why we did (are doing) videos because they add to the whole flavour that this is not an easy project but life challenging and changing. Keep up the good work. Ignore the negativity.
I remember reading about England being densely forested but as the country expanded, they needed tons of wood to build their ships, merchant and Navy. This pretty much denuded the hillsides, which prompted importing wood from Europe.
tom7601 They used oak to build there navy. But yes, They tok Down almost every oak tree, and Then They had to wait 150 years to build another navy. 😂 But They came here to Denmark and stole our ships and our oak trees. 😢
I find these types of videos very entertaining. Thanks for describing the science and strategies to this engineer.
Your just egging him on aren't you Joel? ;)
Thanks Jessie great video
I grew up in a wood framed building in germany build in 1640 (according to the writing in one of the beams).
It is made with wood joints and works fine.
Great information here! Thank you very much.
Very , very good. Thank you for that.
You are 100% wrong... If you want to use "wet" wood you need to put it in tension in the building right away! i've worked at a place where we made transportable homes and we had a humity level detector and a water sprayer to keep the wood "wet" until it would be used!
I am with your argument totally Jesse!!
Good talk on wet lumber and thanks for the Bugaboo content
Great explanation
You should read about the German Zimmerman and Timmerman traditions. Many of the principles of log building are also present in timber framing.
nice good information, I learned something and it helps with my build of small cabins on my land with the trees i have. i wished i had your saw, but have to do it with my homemade version of an alaskamill :)
Posts that are green will tend to twist but it does also depend on how many knots run thru the wood. More knots more twist. We built my folks post and beam home with green timber. The posts have done some shrinking and twisting. Your house won't fall down. But u could have some interesting repairs down the road when dealing with our modern jiprock, trims, mouldings, etc. Love your journey. Cheers
It's only in the last 100 years that we depleted the stock of old growth timber, with it's densely packed growth rings, which is stable even after it's just been milled. Using the wood available, which is fast growth, wide growth ring timber, the issue of drying stability rears it's ugly head.
SCREEEWW the house. More Bugaboo please! haha
Good explanation. The pegs basically form an interference fit as the timbers dry. This same teqnique is used in machining only it's done with a difference of heat rather than moisture. For furniture and cabnetry, yes, you want dryer wood, but it's still better to do it slowly as far as less waste when you shave the boards flat and parallel.
Thank you for all the info, I would never leaner all this you lay out for me. God bless you and your wife.
Air drying has existed literally forever...
Yes it has. Even to this day, it is not always used. The fact is that a majority of Homes built between 1950 and the late 1970's, were in fact framed with Unseasoned Green Lumber. It was what was most economical. Right or wrong. That's how it was done. Josh, please use Dry Lumber when ever possible.
Every time Bugaboo meowed my kitties raised their heads and looked for him. It was really cute.
You have been able to air dry timber since time began, you just need to be patient. Also standardized timber is something that we have reinvented, the Romans had it nailed a couple thousand years ago.
I love your cat Bugaboo he wants all the attention lol
Great video! You are sooooo right! And good explanations, too!! Keep ondoing such a great job! Love watching your videos :-)
Knowledge from the Shelter Institute... Nice. Knowledge is power