Building a new Music Room Part 3

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  • Опубліковано 16 лис 2024

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  • @bwithrow011
    @bwithrow011 3 роки тому

    Paul, oh how I wish I lived closer to Boulder. I'm on the east coast, but, if I'm ever in the area, I would love to sit in your listening room and feast on your IRSV's! 👍🎵

  • @winecognac7793
    @winecognac7793 11 років тому

    I really liked your explanation Paul, it was very entertaining and informative. Thank you so much

  • @buttonman1831
    @buttonman1831 6 років тому

    That is an awesome video, will be part of my reno plan when the time comes.

  • @nicolasrivera5310
    @nicolasrivera5310 10 років тому

    Paul, thank you for being a teacher on this videos, i have learned a lot!.

  • @mikemalter
    @mikemalter 11 років тому

    Really interesting, Paul. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing more.

  • @williamlau7179
    @williamlau7179 5 років тому

    Standing waves and waves cancellation always be there in a listening room. Only can be reduced with practical treatment. There are so many discret frequencies to be handled. The physical space of the room is fixed and inherently showing resonant and node frequencies at various spots. Standing waves are easy to be detected. Nodes are less obvious to the normal untrained ears (speaking for myself). One of my listening rooms has a standing waves about below 60 Hz, unanalysed. I accepted it as a casual listener and jokingly happy that I have deep bass to be enjoyed. Fortunately not many musical programs have deep bass.

  • @rhinoskin7550
    @rhinoskin7550 Рік тому

    Thank you for sharing this knowledge

  • @cameronstewart7154
    @cameronstewart7154 11 років тому

    As an avid DIY audiophile who has built a fair amount of electronics and speakers, I have one suggestion for adjusting your system: Gut the stock crossovers in the IRS Betas and roll your own using first order passive filters and impedance compensating zobel networks. Then start measuring the room response of the speakers. As good as the IRS Beta's might be, first order crossover networks will sound far more musical, since this is the only type that exhibits proper time domain behavior.

  • @fernandozegarraaudio8144
    @fernandozegarraaudio8144 5 років тому +1

    Dear Paul:
    First of all I congratulate you on your videos, I loved them.
    I know in advance that my comment will be too late, but the idea is to learn. You understand the concept of resonator Helmholtz, only there is a problem in your explanation. For the spring to muffle the frequency you must leave the internal space empty and not fill it with absorbent material, so it will not work. It is required that work be generated and that this effort be converted into heat, thus absorbing energy. If you fill it with absorbent material, you will not only change the internal volume, but it will also hardly resonate, remember that when you operate backwards the resonator will not emit sound like a whistle, but that at the frequency that the whistle resonates it will now be absorbed. If you fill the whistle for example with cotton, it will not sound, dare, will not resonate and conversely, when you feel the frequency the Helmholtz resonator will not absorb it.
    I hope I have explained well.
    Regards

  • @hevymac
    @hevymac 11 років тому

    I really looking forward to seeing the IRSs in the complete room!

  • @setesh2000
    @setesh2000 9 років тому

    Great job explaining, thanks for the video.

  • @rustyjefferson108
    @rustyjefferson108 11 років тому

    Enjoying the room building process. I'm currently preparing my own listening room after finishing a small construction project at my home.
    Could you please share the online software you used to help determine the room treatment?
    Thanks

  • @cameronstewart7154
    @cameronstewart7154 11 років тому

    Continued - I've never heard a speaker with 2nd, 3rd, or 4th order crossovers that sounded like music. The other thing I would recommend is that you change out the woofers from polypropylene to treated paper types. The treated paper will sound warmer and reveal more inner fine detail.

  • @Mawson6492
    @Mawson6492 6 років тому +1

    Paul, is there, or could you make, a video demonstrating the room's response with the resonators working, and with their ports plugged?

  • @mikimike
    @mikimike 5 років тому

    It's funny to watch this video now because, with all their expertise, their idea turned out completely different then they expected.

  • @DJWolves97
    @DJWolves97 2 роки тому

    So I am assuming that you don’t use an equalizer to ameliorate the problem frequencies because an equalizer would reduce the sound quality?

  • @dihydrotestosterone
    @dihydrotestosterone 11 років тому

    Hi Paul !! Can the same be accomplished using DSP providing that the preamplifier has built-in capability? Some software like Dirac do the correction to the signal before the DAC...so the music is tailored to fit the room measurements....

  • @hermanvirgen5712
    @hermanvirgen5712 11 років тому

    Not only that. It will make the "sweet spot" very small. Digital correction might even aggravate problems in the room once you move your head an inch to the left. It also will not get rid of the resonance.

    • @fernandozegarraaudio8144
      @fernandozegarraaudio8144 5 років тому

      I know you haven't asked me.
      But if you are interested, the only thing DSP will do is lower the amplitude of the selected frequency, the room will continue to resonate, even if the frequency has stopped being generated, it is a problem of the room not of the speaker.
      Regards

  • @Oneness100
    @Oneness100 10 років тому +1

    Did you take dB meter measurements with various low frequencies to validate what the software said you had? I think it might have been better to actually measure these mode bass buildup.

  • @ellenlachow902
    @ellenlachow902 11 років тому

    Paul- I like your idea of placing the equipment in a rack outside of the room boundaries. That is going to leave you with some very long speaker cables, albeit, very short interconnects unless the power amps remain in the room. You can, and they do, argue both ways: short interconnects, long cables, and vice versa. Any opion in that regard. Thanks.
    Russ

  • @mrconcept
    @mrconcept 10 років тому

    Very informative thank you.

  • @zanem9022
    @zanem9022 3 роки тому

    Im building a room just for music and i dont have any experience in acoustics. Do u recommend higher celings or 9 1/2 is sufficient?

  • @Highendaudiodoc
    @Highendaudiodoc 11 років тому

    This is fine but it assumes a perfectly rectangular rigid box with no carpet. You are planning to cut into the walls. The room will have some absorption. And most importantlt the IRS will not have a flat output. So as you mention being able to tune the resonators based on measured response of the final room with the speakers and equipment is the only effective approach. That is the response graph I will look forward to seeing!

  • @DvirLevy
    @DvirLevy 9 років тому +4

    can you share a link to that calculator you were talking about @ 1:50?

    • @Twongo
      @Twongo 4 роки тому

      This one not only has really helpful visuals, but a tone generator that plays your modes so you can hear for yourself what the visuals are telling you. Keep in mind, there will be some discrepancy depending on construction materials and odd shapes. amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

  • @jamesvelvet3612
    @jamesvelvet3612 10 років тому +1

    Ports are holes in woofers? I'm thinking they are actually holes in the woofer "cabinet".

  • @xiwiwix
    @xiwiwix 9 років тому

    Thank you.

  • @tomlathrop4094
    @tomlathrop4094 4 роки тому

    Just curious why is the room so small?

  • @almightytreegod
    @almightytreegod 5 років тому

    I’ve been trying to understand this Helmholtz resonator/absorber thing and I think this has been one of the best explanations, I think, but trying to wrap my head around how damping material in the chamber doesn’t actually raise the resonant frequency since you’re making the chamber smaller... or maybe I’m missing something
    And wouldn’t they also need to be air tight? Seems it would be hard to pull that off with drywall and mud

    • @greatfelixo
      @greatfelixo 4 місяці тому

      Wondering if you ever got your head round it all. I too am confused by this, I've seen people claiming that helmholtz resonators reduce frequencies because the waveform that comes out of the resonator is out of phase with the sound wave going in. Is this part of it I'm confused.

    • @almightytreegod
      @almightytreegod 4 місяці тому

      @@greatfelixo yes, that’s the idea, that the pressure wave coming from the resonator will be out of phase and therefore cancel said frequency… in theory… I got into membrane traps after this which are also extremely difficult, then settled on just using rockwool panels. Has a far wider bandwidth and is just far more practical overall. Check out acoustics insider.

    • @greatfelixo
      @greatfelixo 4 місяці тому

      @@almightytreegod thanks for replying to something you left a comment on 5 years ago. I am just a bit confused though because if this is the case what is the dampening inside for? Is this just to stop the surfaces inside resonating and making more noise?

    • @almightytreegod
      @almightytreegod 4 місяці тому

      @@greatfelixo as you can see, I never got a reply on that. lol… I assume they were doing it wrong

    • @greatfelixo
      @greatfelixo 4 місяці тому

      @@almightytreegod right ahah, this video here seems to confirm it though /watch?v=Q636ZOzJnks&t=194s so perhaps it is about the internal surfaces vibrating. Or that the resonator is so effective that the amplitude of the sound that the resonator puts out exceeds what goes in so needs attenuating with dampeners to match the amplitude.

  • @jimchatwin8339
    @jimchatwin8339 4 роки тому +3

    Since this video has been uploaded, Paul has realized that nearly all of his assumptions and pontifications have prooven incorrect. Gives a lot to the credo of shut the @%#$ up and slap the speakers in the room and play 'em!!

    • @joshuacuthbert3465
      @joshuacuthbert3465 4 роки тому

      Interesting. Would you mind giving me some context to this and letting me know which video that was mentioned? Thanks!

    • @Sun-N-Fun
      @Sun-N-Fun 3 роки тому

      @@joshuacuthbert3465 Hahaha, maybe jump to the last video in the series to see if Paul does a wrap-up! Specifically, ua-cam.com/video/NPazywXrqJo/v-deo.html. Props to Paul for admitting when he's wrong! The resonators don't really work so he solves the problem by moving the listening position.

  • @jasonmelo9379
    @jasonmelo9379 5 років тому

    If it works this way why don't people just do that with subwooferss to get rid of the back wave?

  • @middledigit1
    @middledigit1 10 років тому

    P.s forgot to mention those speakers are trully Awesome.

  • @baruchdor
    @baruchdor 11 років тому

    the "foem" in the helmholtz bass trap only broaden the freq range (and lowere the pick of Absorption not make the bass trap work you can use ampty one too

  • @Oneness100
    @Oneness100 10 років тому

    If a Helmholtz resonator can only be tuned to one frequency, I don't think it's ultimately going to be the best solution since these mode build ups can actually be a broad range range of low frequencies because the build up is a little more spread out over a wider frequency range than only one. yeah, one might actually be the most prominent, but it doesn't have a spike? it gradually goes up and down with different frequencies. I think other low frequency absorption would be ultimately better.

    • @maadmum9409
      @maadmum9409 8 років тому

      Oneness100 more resonators? for different frequencies

    • @Oneness100
      @Oneness100 8 років тому +1

      MAaDmUm A Helmholtz resonator isn't a broadband resonator, they are tuned to a specific frequency. Take a coke bottle. when you blow over the mouth of the glass coke bottle, it resonates at a specific frequency. Right? That's basically what a Helmholtz resonator is, in generalized terms. Well, if you have low frequency issues in a room, it's not just ONE frequency that you have a problem with, it's typically a RANGE of frequencies and it might be CENTERED around a specific frequency, but you still have to treat the other frequencies surrounding that one center frequency. So, if you measured a problem with 30Hz, you may have to use Resonators that are tuned many frequencies above and below that 30Hz to treat that problem.
      So if you use Helmholtz resonators for low frequency room treatment, one typically requires many of them that are tuned to different frequencies. At least this is my understanding of how they were explained to me by an acoustic engineer. It's quite common, to require 12 or sometimes even more Helmholtz resonators in a room and each one is tuned to a different frequency.
      Diaphramatic low frequency absorption is much better. You can get them designed for broadband or turned to a frequency that's centered around the same frequency you are having a problem with and you can use both. Depending on the design and materials, they might not take up as much room. Low frequencies is the most difficult problem to cure when it comes to small room acoustics.
      The first thing to do is take measurements of your room, figure out what speakers you plan on using, and then contact a company that does specialize with low frequency absorption products and then they'll tell you what problems you have because they probably have a similar sized room already measured, and they can tell you what you need to cure the problem. Some rooms are simply too small to do anything.. And yes, some people simply use too big of a speaker system in a small room and if played at high volume, it just creates a bigger problem because you are loading too much low frequencies in that size room. So, speaker size, volume level you play music, come into play when it comes to dealing with the room. So it's better to take those into consideration.

    • @maadmum9409
      @maadmum9409 8 років тому

      Oneness100 Okay thanks!
      so what would you recomnend a Student that has two "Magnat Monitor Supreme 800's" and a "Canton" Sub for getting rid of an annoying Mode at around 136 Hz?
      I do not know how to get rid of those annoying frequencies on a tight budget, so i thought about building a Helmholtz resonator.
      I walked around in my room and noticed the typical interference-pattern but it is not possible for me to change my Position in my room :(

    • @Oneness100
      @Oneness100 8 років тому

      I ran into one company that specializes in low frequency absorption treatment, he's a great source of information and he can discuss the different methods of low frequency absorption, etc. etc. and he's got a lot of videos on room acoustics, treatment, etc. So you might want to check out his vast videos he posts, and I would suggest asking him questions and maybe get a quick analysis of your room and what treatment he suggests. He has his own dual diaphragm absorption systems that he does sell the plans so a DIYer can make your own, OR you can buy pre built units. Acoustic Fields is the company name. He caters to both the professional recording studios as well as home listening and home recording studios.

    • @Oneness100
      @Oneness100 8 років тому

      I don't know enough about your situation. The BRAND of speakers isn't what they look at, it's the size of the low frequency drivers and how many low frequency drivers is what he's looking at.. Let's say you have a small room that's 10x12, which is a typical bedroom in a tract home or apartment. It can't handle low frequencies very well, because it's too small of a room, so putting in sub woofers or large woofers wouldn't be a good idea, because once you go past a certain SPL, you are doing to build up a lot of low frequency energy that your room simply can't handle and they are too small do put low frequency treatment because you simply don't have the room.
      In a well treated room, you don't typically have to turn your stereo up as loud.
      here's what I recommend.
      Jot down the size woofers and the number of woofers you have in your stereo, get the length, width and height of the room measured, maybe take photos of the room you might email him so he can see what other considerations. Call Dennis at Acoustic Fields and talk to him about your specific situation. he might recommend making your own diaphragmatic absorption systems as he has designs for a dual diaphragm model. And that might be a LOT easier than making Helmholtz resonators….
      They also have a ton of videos on room acoustics, treatment, and other topics that revolve around room acoustics on UA-cam.

  • @subramaniantr2091
    @subramaniantr2091 4 роки тому

    That bottle wasn't rigid enough probably damping your whistle.

  • @middledigit1
    @middledigit1 10 років тому

    Does anyone offering advice on how to setup these Rare speakers, actual own one of the limited 58 pairs? As for ripping them apart to build your own crossovers.....pretty sure they will already sound pretty sweet as is. Most Audio DIY's have made their own cross overs at some point.with some success....but most would rather go with a setup made by Experts and companies with dedicated technicians and teams, than something dollied up using second hand knowledge!!! Pauls Video's are about setting up rooms as good as possible and for his purpose his techniques work. They're may indeed be better............but until people have sat in the hot seat and heard the end result......debating whether it works in Pauls room build or not, is a mute point......Opinions are free to give but not to be confused with, flat out challenging the validity of what is a scientifically controlled room build - these guys ain;t just throwing up chunks of wood for the fun of it!!! LoL

  • @timbosak2519
    @timbosak2519 6 років тому

    What’s an open bottle of salad dressing doing in a construction site?🧐

  • @bretspangler8717
    @bretspangler8717 6 років тому

    your salad dressing was acting as a fluid damper in your resonator

  • @juanpablovivanco9254
    @juanpablovivanco9254 6 років тому

    *cries in Sennheiser hd449 while watching this*

  • @bobofky
    @bobofky 9 років тому

    trying his damnedest to dance ballet.

  • @emo-tions
    @emo-tions 5 років тому

    25 Hz?? … isn't relevant for producing music! You have to care about 100 to 1000 Hz!

    • @FearghasG
      @FearghasG 5 років тому +1

      Very relevant, actually, that is just a bit lower than a low b on a 5 string bass guitar (~30hz), and close to a low E even (41hz). Now, your primarily hear the 1st harmonic (~60hz) on the bass guitar but it's still there. With a bass amplifier, it is even more there. Then add on top of that a room that naturally resonates around 25hz and you have a problem. If that resonates enough such as through contact with the ground and into the walls, then you have the room resonating and harmonizing to that resonance too. That will get picked up in mics, reamplified through open strings, resonate through the bass drum and floor tom and snare, etc. Every db you can take away from this low sub range helps the low and upper lows and low mids a LOT.

    • @almightytreegod
      @almightytreegod 5 років тому

      As far as having source audio (aside from a bass tuned super low, or a low kick drum maybe) low enough, a mic that will actually pick it up (that you wouldn’t want to use a high pass filter on anyway), and then the monitors that will play it back, that’s an expensive frequency to hear, and probably an unlikely one to hear with any volume still. The problem, from what I understand, is that with standing waves it can muddy up the low end and cause problems with higher frequencies as well. Like if you have an issue at 20, you can more likely have an issue at 40, 80, 160, etc...
      Been trying to find clarification on that tho

  • @socalikidd
    @socalikidd 9 років тому

    Ok so cool you got rid of the hump in the corners. Who is standing in the corners listening to music? What I mean is what does that do for us in the center of the damn room where you cant hear what the corner is doing anyways?! and all this talk about absorbing bass. how about redirecting it? i'd like to HEAR what I paid for... not have it all be absorbed.

    • @socalikidd
      @socalikidd 9 років тому

      pretty bad comment on my part, sorry. now I dont even remember what I was getting at. I am looking for the same sound and working hard to get it. Just trying to understand all of this too. great information btw. thank you.