The placebo effect should never be underestimated. My HiFi always sounds better after I've eaten some sugar pills, or eaten a piece of fruit. Personally I cannot get too excited about signals that show up when some change in the cables causes the noise floor to drop lower.
Hi Eddie! Watching your late videos makes me understand how my boss feels when he’s making a visit to my office, telling me to tidy up my desk. I think it’s time for both of us to clear up some space :P
My fear is that the wall of equipment may fall on Eddie if there's any kind of seismic disturbance in the area. I think he's in California. I like to keep a fairly clear desk. The more clutter the closer I get to working at the edge, the more things keep falling on the floor which drives me bonkers.
@@fredflintstone8048 So true! BUT sometimes persistence can be bliss. I’m moving into a bigger office as management understood the current one is too small. True story
It was always the 60Hz stuff in the low level RCA i was worried about, and just a good cable 5-10 dollar 3-foot cable can do just that 90% of the time for me lol. Great video.
Haha, spectral decay? Maybe when the frequencies get so high, the cable starts acting as an RC circuit. Hundreds of megahertz would be my guess depending on length.
Thanks! You are correct. I did show this when I took the Bode plots out to the higher frequencies - they started acting nuts. This was so much higher than any audio equipment would produce signals;)
Hi Eddie, great video thank you. I wonder if you would measure less or more 60Hz noise if you use an open ended power cable (your red power cable at the resistor is disconnected). Cheers!
Great question. An open ended cable (or unloaded) would not do anything as there would be no magnetic or electric field (without current flowing). Great question though!!
Eddie, RG-400 is a double braided 50 ohm coax cable. The aptures in the braided are very small and the weave angle is less than 30 degrees. Thanks for the video.
You could use 100 feet of cheap cat 5; wire his AC dimmer on three pairs and the audio signal on the 4th pair and get similar or better results. Really depends on the CMRR of the audio transmitter and receiver ( resistor match in balanced line drivers/receivers).
Thanks for the great question!! I think you are jumping ahead to speaker cables - is that right? I held that for last in the cables - as it might be the most interesting...
Would be interesting to try a length of star quad cable. It's a twisted four wire core with a braided screen, it's for making balanced connections with xlrs really but I have used it with xlrs, and rca unbalanced connectors. Would it give the benefits of both the coax and twisted wires all in one? Also the QA403 can do balanced measurements so you could try something with that too.
Try measuring transient degradation of interconnects with high capacitance and one with low capacitance. A low capacitance cable with Cardas solid silver in 1/16 inch Teflon tubing terminated with RCA. That could prove cable benefits or the myth of it. Music is transient in nature and as you said, noise gets masked.
HP became Agilent became Keysight... so it's all and only Keysight now, for test gear. The Agilent spin off from HP still exists; but they do life science stuff... like chromatography., electrophoresis et. al.
Thanks Eddie. Too low to hear. Just because you can measure it doesn't mean you can hear it. Remember these guys are claiming more than just noise with silver cable, it's just audio voodoo like 100 hour break in. The human ear can't hear 0.1% distortion much less 0.01%. Braid plain old stranded wire together and you'll get the same thing if you're worried about LF noise. Move those plain cables apart a foot and you'll get the same thing as Kimber or any other expensive cable.
The premise is that attentively listening to music on high price tag equipment causes your hearing sensitivity to exceed thresholds long established by psychoacoustics. The fact that this very music was recorded and mixed using dozens of metres of Mogami and a bunch of NE5532s does not seem to matter either.
@@paulb4661 Even the tiniest amount of compression ( 2:1 at -10dBm) will have broadband IMD noise floor above minus 70dBc. Find me a recording without compression... and then we can get worried about silly wires!
@@KissAnalog but I am glad that you finally found a way to show the differences in cables. And it only took you wrapping the literal mains cord with an interconnect. Which to be honest some of my setups might look like that. But aesthetics does not my strong suit. That being said squeezing out . 002% might be worth that $40,000 cable. I would know I'd rather put it towards my mortgage!
I will also tell you any mV is audible on a very high end system I can represent this time after time. I made custom ground filters and star grounding to get my systems star ground down to 0.5mV ac and 0mv DC on the scope. Getting the ac noise down is the key and the system between 100 and even 10mv ac at 60hz down to 0.5mV at 60hz ac is VERY noticeable.
Home audio manufacturers are notoriously bad at 2 wire single ended inputs and outputs; signal = chassis = AC earth ground. Utterly stupid design! Pro audio is 2 wire balanced (or 3 wire shielded) and is >60dB quieter at line frequencies by design.
1:04. Do You Read Your Coments. I've been saying 5 times you have to use a 70s pioneer receiver. To test for noise. All class d amp cancel or filter out noise. So YA Can't Use A CLASS D Amp
Thanks for your feedback - and yes I do read my comments - but I don't think you read my reply to your last few comments. Amplifiers amplify signals in the audio band - they don't filter them - or shouldn't. This includes Class D. So, the signals that I am measuring are in the audio band.
And why should I believe you? You with all of your measuring devices and science? When I could instead believe in magical slipstream quantum foam stickers from synergistic research?
The amount of BS they invent each year is astounding and sad that people buy that crap. I used to give them hell on the Stereophile forums back when they allowed outsiders to comment. I made them and Stereophile so angry that they started asking me if I subscribed to their magazine and when I said I didn't then they wouldn't allow me to comment. 🤣 I probably really hurt Synergistic Research's profits over the months that I pointed out their BS for others to see. Atkinson and Serinus are responsible for many spending money foolishly with their out right lies.
@davidlong1786 I've had people ask me why I care and they say I should let people spend their money where they want to. But I want to save the others - who are not 'believers' and want to actually know if cables make a difference.
Thanks for your feedback - but I'm not sure what you mean. I tried to place the black wire on across the top of the amp each time - just to keep it in the same place. I did move it around - and as long as it wasn't right next to the red wire it didn't make a difference. The wires have to be close to couple/cancel the fields.
You are still talking and understanding nothing like when you tested power cables, there is nothing new in what you demonstrate and it has nothing to do with the sound differences experienced on cables. But in a way what you are doing explains the problem. Measurement can only measure precision, what we can measure is typically something that will irritate our ears THD noise etc on cables these parameters are so far down that no human can hear it. The differences heard on cables can be quite clear, it's about timbre, perceived resolution and soundstage that change from cable to cable, none of it can be measured with anything other than ear and brain, it's still a mystery what happens and not least the source of much discussion among hifi enthusiasts.. The only common denominator I have been able to find is that the different materials have a sound signature, silver sounds different than copper, Teflon sounds different than PVC etc. These perceived sound differences work independently of known electronics theory, so it's easy to say that it must be a placebo, but it's not as the differences can be detected in blind tests.
Thanks for your interesting feedback. First point; there is actually something different in what I am demonstrating. I finally found something that is different. I think you are right though - it is too low in amplitude to be heard. I've shown that the impedance is nearly identical between a number of cables (in and beyond the audio band). Timber is in the audio band - so if the impedance is almost entirely resistive in the audio band - it will behave the same - as my measurements indicate. There is a solid reason why hifi enthusiasts have not shown proof that they can hear any difference. This would of course be done with a double blind test. They simply can not tell the difference. There was a Million dollars put up challenging a leader in the audio industry - and he would not do it. They could not come to terms - even with 1 Million dollars put up.
@@KissAnalog There's nothing easier than organising a blind test that ends up showing no difference. The problem is that it's not proof that this is the case. There are so many variables that can be adjusted to get the result you want, the quality of the hifi system, the listeners, music selection just to name a few, the vast majority of people who organise such tests are interested in no sound differences ASR Audioholics as you mention. What is their goal finally? Don't they think that we who believe there are sound differences are aware of the paradox that I described in my previous post. There should be no sound differences. Do you and ASR etc. That we are dumb as holes in the ground, without education etc we are far from reality. Bruno Putzeys once expressed this paradox in the following way: ‘It shows that people who claim that cables don't make a difference are clearly deluding themselves. On the other hand, those who say that cables shouldn't make a difference are absolutely right.’ On the other hand, a blind test that concludes that there are differences will most likely be proof that this is actually the case, I and many others have participated in such tests and are therefore convinced that there are sound differences, but we do not know why. Ps what do you mean by cables have identical impedance?
@@torbenkristiansen7732 check out sound and vision speaker cables test from decades ago. Industry related individuals doing their best under the condition of anonymity. Their best wasnt good enough to write home about.
The placebo effect should never be underestimated. My HiFi always sounds better after I've eaten some sugar pills, or eaten a piece of fruit.
Personally I cannot get too excited about signals that show up when some change in the cables causes the noise floor to drop lower.
Amen, expectation factor because of the amount of money spent is the fallacy of fools with too much money to spend.
The placebo effect can be a great thing;) When the signals are lost in the noise floor - when it is so low - it really doesn't matter;)
Hi Eddie, another great informative video. Thank you.
So nice of you
Is it time to test some boutique capacitors?.? I dare you..😮
LOL - I'd love to;) I don't know if I can afford them thought;) I do want to stomp some reality in this belief though...
Very impressive content. Big fan!
Much appreciated!
Hi Eddie!
Watching your late videos makes me understand how my boss feels when he’s making a visit to my office, telling me to tidy up my desk. I think it’s time for both of us to clear up some space :P
My fear is that the wall of equipment may fall on Eddie if there's any kind of seismic disturbance in the area. I think he's in California. I like to keep a fairly clear desk. The more clutter the closer I get to working at the edge, the more things keep falling on the floor which drives me bonkers.
@@fredflintstone8048 So true!
BUT sometimes persistence can be bliss. I’m moving into a bigger office as management understood the current one is too small. True story
LOL - I do want to organize my bench soon;) Need to sell some equipment;)
Eddie , Great Video .
Thanks so much!
It was always the 60Hz stuff in the low level RCA i was worried about, and just a good cable 5-10 dollar 3-foot cable can do just that 90% of the time for me lol. Great video.
Thanks so much!!
Haha, spectral decay? Maybe when the frequencies get so high, the cable starts acting as an RC circuit. Hundreds of megahertz would be my guess depending on length.
Thanks! You are correct. I did show this when I took the Bode plots out to the higher frequencies - they started acting nuts. This was so much higher than any audio equipment would produce signals;)
Best thing about burning in tables is you get to play with the Tesla coil. Tesla coils are great fun at parties.
Very true! Great point!
Hi Eddie, great video thank you. I wonder if you would measure less or more 60Hz noise if you use an open ended power cable (your red power cable at the resistor is disconnected).
Cheers!
Great question. An open ended cable (or unloaded) would not do anything as there would be no magnetic or electric field (without current flowing). Great question though!!
@@KissAnalog ua-cam.com/video/0bAUS1PmEBo/v-deo.htmlsi=S8TF0TlGO8-2GYsY
RG-400 is what I am using for the antennas in my homebuilt airplane. This is a common cable in the aviation world.
Wow - thanks for that!
I make my own cables. I use mic cable and good quality ends. The mic cable is twisted pair and a shield. I use the shield on the return.
Thanks for this feedback! I have used mic cable in the lab before;) Try attaching the shield on just one end - experiment on which end...
Eddie, RG-400 is a double braided 50 ohm coax cable. The aptures in the braided are very small and the weave angle is less than 30 degrees. Thanks for the video.
For a second there, I thought you said HOAX cable…
Thanks for that great info!
I wonder about using twisted pair Ethernet cable, much higher frequency but tight twists??
Thanks for the interesting idea! I'd think that they would be interesting to measure;)
You could use 100 feet of cheap cat 5; wire his AC dimmer on three pairs and the audio signal on the 4th pair and get similar or better results. Really depends on the CMRR of the audio transmitter and receiver ( resistor match in balanced line drivers/receivers).
What happens when you add a 2nd order or more passive crossover that consist of resistors, capacitors and inductors with speaker components ?
Thanks for the great question!! I think you are jumping ahead to speaker cables - is that right? I held that for last in the cables - as it might be the most interesting...
Hi Eddie, why does the FFT measurements jumps sometimes arround?Is it a refresh?thx
Great question. The equipment puts out a signal and takes a measurement, and then it refreshes and repeats.
If at same volume class A vs AB vs D will there be a sound difference in sound signature?
This is a fantastic question! I'll investigate this;)
Check out Vintage Audio Review blind test comparison performed on a bunch of well seasoned listeners. Ayima vs Marantz tube amp.
Would be interesting to try a length of star quad cable. It's a twisted four wire core with a braided screen, it's for making balanced connections with xlrs really but I have used it with xlrs, and rca unbalanced connectors. Would it give the benefits of both the coax and twisted wires all in one?
Also the QA403 can do balanced measurements so you could try something with that too.
Try measuring transient degradation of interconnects with high capacitance and one with low capacitance. A low capacitance cable with Cardas solid silver in 1/16 inch Teflon tubing terminated with RCA. That could prove cable benefits or the myth of it. Music is transient in nature and as you said, noise gets masked.
HP became Agilent became Keysight... so it's all and only Keysight now, for test gear. The Agilent spin off from HP still exists; but they do life science stuff... like chromatography., electrophoresis et. al.
Thanks for this great feedback! I realized I said Agilent when I was editing;)
RG-400 is primarily used for its low loss.
Thank you!
I think the word you were looking for is "Masking". One sound can mask the other sounds.
That's it! Thank you!!
Thanks Eddie.
Too low to hear. Just because you can measure it doesn't mean you can hear it. Remember these guys are claiming more than just noise with silver cable, it's just audio voodoo like 100 hour break in. The human ear can't hear 0.1% distortion much less 0.01%.
Braid plain old stranded wire together and you'll get the same thing if you're worried about LF noise. Move those plain cables apart a foot and you'll get the same thing as Kimber or any other expensive cable.
The premise is that attentively listening to music on high price tag equipment causes your hearing sensitivity to exceed thresholds long established by psychoacoustics. The fact that this very music was recorded and mixed using dozens of metres of Mogami and a bunch of NE5532s does not seem to matter either.
@@paulb4661 Well said!
Thanks for the great feedback! I'm actually still impressed with my homemade interconnect using the 18AWG speaker wire;)
@paulb4661 So true - there is so much to overlook to focus on the magic;)
@@paulb4661 Even the tiniest amount of compression ( 2:1 at -10dBm) will have broadband IMD noise floor above minus 70dBc. Find me a recording without compression... and then we can get worried about silly wires!
QA403 shines again!
Yes it does;) Thanks!
So youre telling me not to wrap my interconnects around my power cable?
LOL - ...but if you want to - let us know if you can hear a difference;)
@@KissAnalog I've been a mechanic for 20 years. I'm shocked my hearing is as good as it is
@@KissAnalog but I am glad that you finally found a way to show the differences in cables. And it only took you wrapping the literal mains cord with an interconnect. Which to be honest some of my setups might look like that. But aesthetics does not my strong suit. That being said squeezing out . 002% might be worth that $40,000 cable. I would know I'd rather put it towards my mortgage!
I will also tell you any mV is audible on a very high end system I can represent this time after time. I made custom ground filters and star grounding to get my systems star ground down to 0.5mV ac and 0mv DC on the scope. Getting the ac noise down is the key and the system between 100 and even 10mv ac at 60hz down to 0.5mV at 60hz ac is VERY noticeable.
yeah right 😑
@@davidlong1786 it's a good thing we don't prescribe drugs purely on our hypothesis.
Home audio manufacturers are notoriously bad at 2 wire single ended inputs and outputs; signal = chassis = AC earth ground. Utterly stupid design! Pro audio is 2 wire balanced (or 3 wire shielded) and is >60dB quieter at line frequencies by design.
Thanks for the feedback! So 10 mV is only 40 dB down from 1 V, but the noise that we are seeing is much lower than this.
@jim9930 That's a great point - and it is interesting how things haven't changed - or at least not much.
22:12. Gesundheit.
Thank you!!
1:04. Do You Read Your Coments. I've been saying 5 times you have to use a 70s pioneer receiver. To test for noise. All class d amp cancel or filter out noise. So YA Can't Use A CLASS D Amp
Thanks for your feedback - and yes I do read my comments - but I don't think you read my reply to your last few comments.
Amplifiers amplify signals in the audio band - they don't filter them - or shouldn't. This includes Class D. So, the signals that I am measuring are in the audio band.
And why should I believe you? You with all of your measuring devices and science? When I could instead believe in magical slipstream quantum foam stickers from synergistic research?
The amount of BS they invent each year is astounding and sad that people buy that crap. I used to give them hell on the Stereophile forums back when they allowed outsiders to comment. I made them and Stereophile so angry that they started asking me if I subscribed to their magazine and when I said I didn't then they wouldn't allow me to comment. 🤣 I probably really hurt Synergistic Research's profits over the months that I pointed out their BS for others to see. Atkinson and Serinus are responsible for many spending money foolishly with their out right lies.
LOL - Thanks!!
@davidlong1786 I've had people ask me why I care and they say I should let people spend their money where they want to. But I want to save the others - who are not 'believers' and want to actually know if cables make a difference.
you didn't relocate the black wire....
Thanks for your feedback - but I'm not sure what you mean. I tried to place the black wire on across the top of the amp each time - just to keep it in the same place. I did move it around - and as long as it wasn't right next to the red wire it didn't make a difference. The wires have to be close to couple/cancel the fields.
@@KissAnalog nice to see a definative study
You are still talking and understanding nothing like when you tested power cables, there is nothing new in what you demonstrate and it has nothing to do with the sound differences experienced on cables.
But in a way what you are doing explains the problem.
Measurement can only measure precision, what we can measure is typically something that will irritate our ears THD noise etc on cables these parameters are so far down that no human can hear it.
The differences heard on cables can be quite clear, it's about timbre, perceived resolution and soundstage that change from cable to cable, none of it can be measured with anything other than ear and brain, it's still a mystery what happens and not least the source of much discussion among hifi enthusiasts..
The only common denominator I have been able to find is that the different materials have a sound signature, silver sounds different than copper, Teflon sounds different than PVC etc. These perceived sound differences work independently of known electronics theory, so it's easy to say that it must be a placebo, but it's not as the differences can be detected in blind tests.
Thanks for your interesting feedback.
First point; there is actually something different in what I am demonstrating. I finally found something that is different. I think you are right though - it is too low in amplitude to be heard.
I've shown that the impedance is nearly identical between a number of cables (in and beyond the audio band). Timber is in the audio band - so if the impedance is almost entirely resistive in the audio band - it will behave the same - as my measurements indicate.
There is a solid reason why hifi enthusiasts have not shown proof that they can hear any difference. This would of course be done with a double blind test. They simply can not tell the difference. There was a Million dollars put up challenging a leader in the audio industry - and he would not do it. They could not come to terms - even with 1 Million dollars put up.
@@KissAnalog There's nothing easier than organising a blind test that ends up showing no difference. The problem is that it's not proof that this is the case.
There are so many variables that can be adjusted to get the result you want, the quality of the hifi system, the listeners, music selection just to name a few, the vast majority of people who organise such tests are interested in no sound differences ASR Audioholics as you mention. What is their goal finally? Don't they think that we who believe there are sound differences are aware of the paradox that I described in my previous post. There should be no sound differences. Do you and ASR etc. That we are dumb as holes in the ground, without education etc we are far from reality.
Bruno Putzeys once expressed this paradox in the following way:
‘It shows that people who claim that cables don't make a difference are clearly deluding themselves. On the other hand, those who say that cables shouldn't make a difference are absolutely right.’
On the other hand, a blind test that concludes that there are differences will most likely be proof that this is actually the case, I and many others have participated in such tests and are therefore convinced that there are sound differences, but we do not know why.
Ps what do you mean by cables have identical impedance?
@@torbenkristiansen7732 check out sound and vision speaker cables test from decades ago. Industry related individuals doing their best under the condition of anonymity. Their best wasnt good enough to write home about.