Wheel bearings - Why I use oil instead of grease!
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2019
- Why did I stop using grease in my wheel bearings? A number of years ago I got sick of grease not properly lubricating my wheel bearings so I made a simple modification so I can now run them in oil. In this video I show you how I did it and a number of other little tricks to do with rear wheel bearings particularly for Toyota Landcruisers'. This can work on other vehicles with a full floating bearing design.
When I put this up of Facebook I had lots of comments saying this is silly for a number of reasons. Here are some of them;
1. The oil will leak out the hub seal - In practice I've never seen this happen if you do what I say in the video.
2. Grease is better than oil for bearings. If this was the case why do oil lubricated bearings in our vehicles last so much longer than oil lubricated bearings? Oil is a better lubricant and can also handle small amounts of water ingress.
At the 12:00 mark I give the bolt length of 40mm. I've since found that a 35mm bolt is a better length as sometimes the hole depth is not enough for 40mm. If this happens you can get an oil leak from the axle as the bolt won't quite tighten up correctly.
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Another enjoyable video Matt, my two cents...
My 80 series experience extends to owning two over the last 15 years, driving exceeding 400,000km, wheeling them hard if infrequently, and working on many of them. My Landcruiser/Hilux experience spans over 35 years and a million km of driving, wheeling, towing, plus maintaining and repairing and modifying countless vehicles. That is not to say my way is the only way but I thought I would share some of that experience.
Toyota’s method for wheel bearing adjustment involves measuring the seal/grease drag torque then setting and measuring the hub starting torque with a preload of about 7Nm ON TOP OF the grease/seal drag. Preload means less than zero clearance. It is hard to get right by feel. The maintenance schedule also calls for regular inspection and, if necessary, adjustment. The rear is easier to set up correctly than the front because there is only one nut, and I suppose it’s Murphy’s law but the “proper” adjustment always seems to fall between the locking screw holes so in practice I always go up to the next tighter spot which can ramp up the hub preload torque to 10-20Nm, which in my experience does not have a negative effect on bearing life. Bottom line is they should never be run with clearance, there should be a slight starting drag which is almost imperceptible with the wheel on but is definitely there when the wheel and brake are removed. The “breakaway” or starting torque is due to breaking the initial static friction between the rollers and the bearing faces; because the inner and outer rings are (obviously) different diameters, there is necessarily some sliding contact between the rollers and the bearing faces.
The other thing to keep in mind with wheel bearings (or any other rolling element bearing) is that it must be scrupulously clean when it goes together. The factory assembly is done in cleanroom conditions and the closer to that you can get, the longer the bearing will last. One teaspoon of sand going around the bearing a million times will wear the bearing the same amount as a millionth of a teaspoon going around a million times. A million wheel revolutions is only a few thousand km. The lubricant will only ever be as clean as it is the day it goes in. There is no filter or mechanism for contaminants to get out and very little stopping them from getting in.
So, to the main question - grease or oil - there are good reasons for both. For highway use, I think wet lubrication is right on the money. Many trucks with similar bearing systems are wet oiled, and correctly adjusted and maintained the bearings can last well over a million kilometers. There is certainly less friction therefore heat buildup which translates to a measurable improvement in fuel economy and extended bearing life.
For off-road use the equation changes. Grease is a displacement lubricant, and a correctly greased wheel bearing has very little space for water or other contaminants. A properly packed bearing has no air space in it and a properly packed hub has very little air space. If you ever intend crossing water more than hub deep, or driving long distances on wet, unsealed roads, grease in the bearing with the inner seal installed is very cheap insurance.
The axle to housing seal (deleted as described to achieve wet lubrication) achieves more than just separating the grease from the oil; it’s an extra layer of protection for the final drive and differential. Losing a wheel bearing is a nuisance. $50 in parts and an hour of your time. Relying on the grease seal behind the inner wheel bearing to not only keep oil in but contaminants out of both the wheel bearing and the axle/final drive might be a risk not worth taking. If even a small amount of muddy water contaminates the axle oil, within a few hundred km, big big dollars worth of final drive gears, locking devices and bearings are reduced to so many kg of scrap metal.
In Toyota’s estimation, well adjusted and properly installed, greased wheel bearings provide the best compromise between on road and off road performance. I have had landcruiser wheel bearings last well over 100,000km without repacking or adjustment, but vigorous off-road usage will inevitably shorten that service interval.
A quick word on 8mm studs, and I’m sure this has been facebooked and forumed to death. Toyota revised the 8mm studs to 10mm with a corresponding hub redesign with more hub meat around the studs in 1998. This provides about 70% improvement in shear strength and axial clamping force over the 8mm studs for the same class fasteners (8.8ish for the Toyota studs). This came about as a result of the growth in deliverable driveline torque over time- more motor torque and lower gearing, greatly increased gross vehicle mass and improved tyre technology (traction is the ultimate limiting factor for driveline loading), and the weakness was revealed in the mighty 80 series.
I like the M10 cap screw modification. If it’s done right. Which involves completely stripping the hub and drilling and tapping it in a drill press or mill to ensure straightness. But there are at least two problems with M10 cap screws. First, drilling for M10 results in a compromised wall thickness in the hub. There’s no way around this - if you upgrade to 10mm studs you make the hub itself the weak link. It’s probably not going to be a problem unless you’re running big rubber or lower gearing. Second, and this is a bit petty but worth mentioning, the heads of M10 cap screws when installed will protrude ever so slightly beyond the diameter of the hub. They *might* prevent the disk/drum from slipping off the hub neatly.
There is an awesome alternative. 3/8” UNF cap screws are a hair over 9.5mm diameter and the heads are about 1mm smaller than their M10 counterparts. This restores the balance between bold diameter and hub material, and the drum will also come off easily, guaranteed. The only real downside of this alternative is having to carry a not metric tool, but it’s a small price to pay. For the record, I have 10mm studs in my 80. I had done a few 3/8” mods and a few more of 10mm. As far as I’m aware neither has ever suffered a failure of the screws or the hubs, including competition use.
While I’m on a roll (see what I did there?), a few thoughts on the hand brake. If you drive in mud, let it go. The handbrake will never work. Mud causes all kinds of maintenance issues and it’s best avoided despite what every 4WD ad on tv would have us believe. If you are a grown up and enjoy a technical rock crawl over a juvenile mud blast, the handbrake can be adjusted to work well and consistently. Again, follow the Toyota procedure and you might find the results surprising. Again, keeping it clean is vital. The handbrake is a rego inspection item and is the only emergency braking system in case of a hydraulic failure. It’s something to think about.
If you read all that, go get a sandwich. You deserve it.
Hey Brian, I think we may have met? Are you mates with Jono? Hey, thanks for the write-up, Essay. I did read it all. I hear and understand what you say with the oil vs grease comments. my experience with oil has had no negative experience to date with probably 200,000ks of operation. I have a number of other 4wd mates who are also running oil successfully. I think i learned a bit more about setting up the bearings although I have read the FSM a few times. Thanks. As for the hand brake, I've set it up as per the manual many times with minimal long term success. Maybe there's a video where you can help me get it right if you live near Jono. wink wink. Oh and totally agree about mud although It's hard to avoid sometimes. Thanks, heaps for the input.
That’s me, yep. I had my handbrake apart this week too...
Probably no time this side of Xmas, see what January turns up.
U jusr wrote an essay
U begin my saying you'd give Ur 2cents.. mate. I'd say that was the money box!
Hi Matt
Awesome idea. Might have to pinch that one.
There will always be a market for 80 series stuff. I was out at Mt Oxley at Easter, seen a bloke driving a foreign 4x4 (Not Toyota😂) driving like a desprado. Got talking to him. All was forgiven as he had an 80. Said he had a mad mate in the industry. The 80 and other 4x4s will always bring people together. There is something about the Out doors, The venture and Banter that will live on forever.
Keep up the good work. 👍😁
Pinch away. And yes they will be around for a while yet.
Solid video buddy. Thanks. Running a 105 motorhome. Your tips make me wanna go out and tinker.
Thanks. Glad to inspire.
Good plan Matt. I don't have to do mine very often at all for whatever reason so I'll just use grease. But if I have trouble I'll try it
Matt, you are so correct in this procedure. An example of oil and bearings is my Kenworth, the front bearings are oil bath with a clear sight glass and a rubber fill plug. Never had a failure yet. The bearing load is 6000 pounds per wheel.
Cheers mate. I've had stand up arguments with some about how bad this idea is. LOL
Heavy duty axles and every modern axle use grease , because those retarded oil bearings fail all the time when heavily loaded. US trucks are not heavily loaded.
That's a rad idea...One of the best tip vids I've seen for a while...👌🍻...
thanks.
Thanks Matt, I was going to ask what size Allen heads bolts you used, but you told us anyway. Thanks again, I’ll be getting some of those for sure.
Glad I could help
Matt, all this is way beyond my capabilities, understanding & pay grade. Thought I'd comment just to help the channel.
Well thank you for the support. It means a lot
Agree with the oil vs grease matt. When I service the old boys trucks wheel bearings will get around a million k’s of service life running in oil.
On the axle studs the cap screws are a good stronger upgrade bolt being a 12.9 cap screw the only downside of a bolt over a stud is that a stud has more thread per inch of clamp force for the mating surface.
What I like to do it upgrade the dowel pins on 80’s to 105 spec which is a 10mm dowel if your really doing hard wheeling you can run 4 dowel pins.
I also like to run a wet and dry stone over the hub face to clean it up and if you have access to a lathe you can just give the axle face a quick clean up so they clamp real nice.
Nice work. My race car 80 has the hub upgrade.
Great video
Thanks!
spot on
Exactly how my grandad told me he used to do his L and B model Mack trucks but that was in the late sixties
Just been revisiting a few of the older videos and came across this one. There are different benefits of running oil or grease, there is no real wrong way! The main thing I find is people don't put enough grease in though. I have a Landy front axle that has done over 100,000 miles on the same greased bearings! THe axle has been on 2 vehicles. As you say in the video, Land Rover used to run oil, and 1000's still do, like the old man's 1957 Series 1, it works perfectly... The downside of oil is that it can starve the bearings of sufficient lubrication in some circumstances, and they can overheat and wear, but most will never get the inclines necessary and time for that to really be a problem. Grease illiminates this issue, but can get washed out when water gets into the bearings. A lot of newer vehicles run sealed-for-life bearings which again have their own problems and drawbacks, mostly not that easy to change when they fail. Love the drive flange amendment, I don't know why others don't do high tensile bolts as so much better than studs there. If I didn't have the Landy I'd still not have a Toyota... but if I did, I'd have done that too! 😀
You wouldn’t have a Toyota? Oh dear how can we be friends😂😂
My old 86 Chevy C30, the Dana 70HD rear axle has oil only bearings. No grease. Those bearings are still like new, and they are original. You just gotta make sure your hubs don't leak. Leaks are bad. A great idea though, and yes, you need to be careful of bearing preload on oil bearings. Good job man.
Cheers
First generation Range Rovers also ran this arrangement for the first 20 years, and were not known for wheel bearing issues, they where however known for oil leaks and in the last years of production they switched to grease, they then started developing issues.
I think its smart to do that. Wish i could figure out away to do that on 1960 facon with the sealed bearing thing. Mine were getting a little oil from leaking seal and the fell free and i think the oil helped so maybe no new seals as long as it doest get to the beakes. Bearings lasting longer means a better way for sure.
Not seeing the setup I can only imagine. It’s a little risky but you could pull the inside seal from the bearing. But you would need to make sure oil did get to the bearing.
If you don't want to get rid of the Toyota style studs, a tip for cone washer removal is to screw on a long nut. Hit the long nut with a brass drift, and the cone washer pops out. The long nut imparts the shock load over more threads which prevents localised damage. Nothing against Matt's ideas though, just another way to skin a cat
Good point. I use a brass drift when needed as well.
I find it funny that people in the comments think running bearings in OIL is controversial. Most manufacturers converted from oil to grease purely to slow down leaks.
Gee I like you. Cracks me up too. I never change gearbox bearings. LOL
I remember seeing bearing buddies for boat trailers that used oil instead of grease in the late 90's i remember thinking that was a good idea but I guess it never caught on
Yeah they are still around
Shit i never thought of that, mint idea mate!
Thanks
A loose or worn bearings in this system can cause the axle studs/bolts come loose or break off due to the hub flexing against the straight axle.
As for front oil bearings, weren't Range Rover's oil bath CV and bearings ?
Yes that's correct on both counts.
Hey Matt! Came back and checked these out again as I've bought a 105 and am looking at running the rear bearings in oil. My local bearing mob recommend it too. My question is do you torque the cap screws to the same specs as you wouls if running the original hub stud/nut setup?
Cheers, loving the content!
Find the torque setting for the bolts your using.
just saw the video. glad you made good experience with bearings running on oil, but there are some points ...
first of all - i drive a land rover serie 2a, from 67, i guess its all the same technique still.
the first draw back is, that oil will mix with water, so you get something complete different.
- bearings and differential wear out with time. this parts runs in the oil and through the complete axle.
- owner leave the bearings in the axle until they die. land rover give a guideline of maintenance. every 3 years or 30tkm dismanteling, cleaning, greasing.
-before installing new bearings clean and grease them well, otherwise they are sentenced to death rightaway.
- might be also a problem, that people dont know how to grease a bearing and how much grease you should use. its hard to understand that your bearings last only 12month.
You raise good points and as you indicate you still need to maintain the vehicle. I run higher diff breathers and generally don’t have trouble with water getting into the oil.
Try cotton picker grease in the front hub assembly. Thick and sticky but flowable like oil.
ok
Hi Matt, Great idea! I'm going to convert mine to oil. I live in Canterbury New Zealand and 90% of my 4x4ing is in river beds with LOTS of water crossings. I'm just replacing front cvs and they are full ow watery/oily grease. Admittedly the wiper seals were worn out. Was thinking as to weather I could somehow run the front cvs and bearings in oil too.
The bearings lasting longer with oil than with grease sounds like a false correlation.
At 4:50 you say that when you used grease you would back off the wheel bearings to adjust them. Loose wheel bearings fail prematurely, they should be preloaded correctly when installed and re-tightened 1000km later when they have bedded in. If they aren't preloaded enough the hub will also move which can cause oil to leak past the axle shaft seal and get into the hub.
You say you adjust the bearings tighter now that you use oil, this is probably closer to the correct preload which is why they last longer.
Maybe.
can you tell me again on the tightening and moving the part where there are 3 bolts or whatever that is!
Thanks the wheel bearing nut. Make it a tad tighter than you should to ensure the bearings don't move. This keeps the seal from leaking.
thanks
You're welcome!
So this is the year, how do you run the front? are they still grease or do you run oil as well?
I still run grease in the front.
hi , why cap screw and not a hexagonal? thank you
Look neater IMO
Hey Mad Matt, how often are you having to check/change diff oil for both level and water ingress with this setup? Would be fairly detrimental if levels drop too low I imagine. And how do you check, as pulling the fill plug with 400ml extra is going to have it go everywhere. Or are you just assuming that if you can not see it leaking out anywhere that it is still in there and a bit a water between changes is ok? Thanks, Jake.
Hey Jake. If oil can come out water can get in. So I run good diff breathers and watch for leaks. Never had a water ingress issue
@@MadMatt4WD thanks Matt. Are you replacing the diff oil every 20k kms roughly? Or more frequently? Cheers
@@JakeScaramuzzi more like every 40-50k
Ive just replaced my rear bearings an seals an used grease..now ive watched this after..bugger.i'll do this next time.100.000k..but what i want to know is what is the torque wrench for the 6 cone bolts an nuts..
I’d have to look it up. It’s not that high
Yea.. its ok..i googled it..thanks
Howd we go with front bearings in oil? just done another set 🤦♂️
Unfortunately it's not really possible for the front without big modification.
@@MadMatt4WD bugger havnt touched the rears since I done it i might try start modifying the front then. Cheers for the vids
I don't understand why Toyota wouldn't oil bath bearings on full floating axles.
My guess is that it comes down to manufacturing costs and from a warranty point of view you have less risk of and oil leak.
All I know is that as long as you use "Hi Temperature Wheel Bearing Grease" with water resistance capabilities, , you will have no problems.
Ok
@@MadMatt4WD But, I like your idea, for if the gear oil is formulated with 100 percent synthetic base fluid to ensure excellent high- and low-temperature performance, and also provides oxidation stability, which contributes to long lubricant life (will not break down over time), then its fine! May, as you say, be even better!
Well it’s worked for me for years now.
hi Toyota wheel bearings floater style , oil or grease it does not matter but is the Toyota well set up for either is the question .
The axle seals are very small compared to others brands .
The axle always has a groove from seal wear ,,FIX this by metal spraying
Yes some were prone to axle studs shearing
Never had axle gasket leaks ever.....
Preload for wheel bearings is expected and can be done by feel if very experienced .
PRELOAD applies to swivel hub bearings and MUST be done with drag gauge . Of coarse u centred the axle first .
Bush vehicles every 12mths when off station
Mining vehicle every 3 mths full suspension steering o/haul
I’d run oil before I bothered metal spraying or buying new axles for the rear. I agree re seal size and preload.
@@MadMatt4WD
Metal spraying very very common if doing either front / rear end maintenance , way cheaper than new axles .
Permatex aviation the brown stuff would be better than silcone in my opinion i mean zero seepage
Seepage hasn’t been an issue for me.
Permatex makes a gear oil resistant sealant. It's specifically made for diff covers.
Grese will stop water oil won't :(
You say that but it doesn't work like that. I've pulled out bearings and the water is just sitting there. with oil the water can evaporate off over time.
Yup especially when the wheel spins there is heat generated from friction