I'm liking this series! After you go through units, I think it would be fun to also rank buildings for their aesthetics. Looking forward to the next one!
The english knights having sallet helmets makes perfect sense, it was the most popular helmet in late medieval england. Despite people commonly associating the sallet with the germans the helmet is actually Italian in origin, and its popularity as a cavalry helmet was first adopted by the French. The English then adopted it from the french. The Germans are relatively rather late out with adopting sallets for their knights. The sallets that were used by the english, french and burgundians also look different to the ones used by the germans (although there is also overlap in styles). In-game the sallet given to the english is actually a real english example, called the Durham Sallet or the Witton-le-Wear sallet (from where it was found) and would not be a style you see notably in germany. While for visual distinction they could've elected to display earlier forms of english armour with bascinets etc, it would make less sense because the english knights would've fought on foot in that period. They only go back to fighting on horseback in the late 15th century, for where the armour in game is based on. At that point I think displaying the germans with older forms of armour would've made more sense - but then people would be mad since they expect to see gothic armour. (Also a small note, the word sallet should be pronounced with a hard 't' because it's an english word, in french the word is actually salade and not sallet)
@@ChillyEmpire having watched the rest of the video since writing that comment I can have a few more historical tidbits: The shoulder bit on the Abbassid knight is meant to be lamellar pauldrons. The abbassids and other arabs/persians did make plenty of use of lamellar, since they adopted it from the Tang dynasty and later also the turks/mongols. But Lamellar the middle east falls out of use during the 14th century, so the knight probably shouldn't be wearing it since it's clearly based on later aesthetics. The byzantine cataphracts are some of the most misrepresented in popular perception. The padded armor thing is a misunderstanding of what an 'Epilorikon' is, which is actually a surcoat. The cataphracts are mentioned to wear Epilorika in 10th century sources such as the Taktika but it's not supposed to be padded armor, instead just a surcoat similar to what later western knights wear. The curved swords they're using are called 'Paramerion' and they're a thing that the byzantines adopted also around the 10th century from the various turkic groups they were in contact with - I think the sort of back and forth curve in the game is supposed to remind of early Avar sabres. I don't know if that is correct for the 10th century though. In these 10th century sources cataphracts are also mentioned to carry two swords, one straight and one curved, with the curved one often carried on the saddle. Besides this they carry also at least one mace on the saddle but some sources say 'several'. Similar things is actually pretty common in other places too, western european knights wearing extra swords on their saddles shows up from at least the 13th century onwards, with also wearing maces or axes besides this is also common. Saddle maces are also seen worn by mongol and indo-persian cavalry etc. Moreover, the byzantine cataphracts in the Taktika are also mentioned to carry bows. Heavily armoured archer and melee hybrid cavalry is very common throughout Eurasia, with the Mongols, Persians and Ottomans also utilizing this. One ottoman military treatise, the Silashorname, mentions a technique to hold the lance tucked in under your thigh while shooting a bow. A 14th century mongol-persian illustration shows a lance tied onto the hand and foot of the rider. When it comes to the Iron Pagoda cavalry, despite their modern popularity they only existed for like 2-3 decades during the Jin-Song wars and were not all that militarily impactful. The armour they wore is also not really that unique, full suits of lamellar show up since the Han dynasty at least and is depicted in Tang murals etc. The full face lamellar protection is the main visually unique bit, but besides that you'd see full covering coats of lamellar with large pauldrons used way before and also after them. In Tibet this style of lamellar remains in use up to the 18th century or so. The face lamellar coverings are also adopted by people like the mongols etc, and the descendants of these armours can be see in the Mongol Shahanmah from 14th century Iran for example. Brigandines are popular armours in most of asia from the 14th century onwards, in china they are adopted either in late Yuan or by the Ming dynasty. The mongols themselves also adopt brigandine type armours and spread these to other regions such as Iran, Rus lands and the Ottomans etc. There's an alleged Ottoman brigandine in the Royal Armouries which they label a 'Karkal'. There's also fragments found of a mongol brigandine from Tuva Cave dated to the 14th century. Iconography from Indo-Persia from the late 14th century onwards also tends to show brigandine type armours, and the later indian 'coat of nails' descends from this (although at some point they just stopped putting plates into them since guns made them obsolete, much like Qing brigandines also eventually stopped having plates). The guandao (or Yan Yue Dao, which is its more technical name) is a surprisingly late development. We only start to see it appear during the late Song and Yuan dynasty, and its popular form is Ming dynasty. Despite it's common association with the Three Kingdoms period and Guan Yu, hence its name, this was only something which happened in the Ming Dynasty due to the Romance of the Three Kingoms novel, and the weapon would not have existed for long before that. In the Song Dynasty we see some other forms of long dao used on horseback such as the Zhao Dao (also known as San Jian Liang Ren Dao or Er Lang Dao, I don't think Zhao Dao gets you any english results on google despite that being its name in some military encyclopedias). The Sipahi are both light and heavy cavalry. The game isn't technically wrong in labeling the lighter cav sipahi since the standard of equipment on them wasn't that strict, but the heavier lancer cav should definitely also be sipahi and would probably be more correct. All sipahi would've had bows, but some would've also had lances as mentioned above which they used alongside their bows. Of course, they also carried swors and maces as well for closer melee combat. The Mongol Kheshik is using a type of chinese Ji, I don't think we have any evidence for these being used on horseback or by Mongols but it looks cool I'll give it that. And lastly for the samurai, besides the shields which I don't think have any basis in Japan, they're pretty damn good. Naginata was a popular weapon on horseback, although by the Sengoku period it would've become a lot less popular in favour of the Yari which began to become popular around the 14th century.
@@duchessskye4072 Bro...this comment is insane. I loved reading through this. I really appreciate your historical insight - how do you know so much about so many different cultures?
@@ChillyEmpire Several years of being a nerd mostly, and hanging around other nerds. I try to do research on the things that interest me and my interest changes constantly so I end up picking up things from all over. Most of my knowledge isn't my original research, while I of course try to do some of that and double-check sources etc I know people who themselves research various aspects and I hang around forums or servers where they share their knowledge and I can ask them about things. It's pretty much inevitable to learn about different cultures because a lot of them are connected in some way and you can't really fully understand a culture without understanding its surroundings and what influenced it etc, so I end up just looking into a bunch of different things in the end. For example I had a brief period where I was really into Song/Jin dynasty china, which later led to being interested in Yuan, and for that I learned more about the Mongols as a whole, which led me to mongol-controlled Persia, and now things surrounding that is my current obsession. A lot of it is just talking to people who know more than me about a specific field really. And some of it is my personal time spent looking at the sources they direct me to or mention.
I wish imperial age cataphracts went harder on the brass/bronze on the chainmail, to match the plates. Same with the rider's armor. It'd just make the whole thing look more cohesive. That said, the "patchwork armor" thing works for the Byzantines mercenary-centric military. It really feels like the imperial age cataphract took the castle age version, and just up-armored it. A fun detail about the tear-drop shields though is that there's a wide variety of what will be painted on the shield. So your cataphracts and limeti. . . limeta. . . Your cataphracts and spearmen will have a wide range of colorful shield designs that look great when grouped together.
Nice vid i think the knights and lancers are all on point and cool looking. They did a great job there. I just think the Ottoman lancers have weird swords i expected some kind of saber. But nice video
They could made Chinese unit better such as Iron Sparrowhawks from Xixia, Iron Pagodas from Liao/Jin and Divine arms, Bu Ren Jia from Song. Yuan Raider and Imperial Guard could be replaced by ZhuDi’s Duo Yan San Wei and his Heavy Calvary. Anyway Chinese history have much more interesting stuff than chu no nu(which is just a toy) and GuanDao(a ceremonial weapon instead of practical fighting weapon)
Fun fact all armour that HRE MAA and knights wear in castle it is call Gothic armour and i think there is expemplar in museum that inspired HRE knight armour
I have to say just looking at the still images doesn't do justice to the Knights/Lancers, you have to see them in-game to really appreciate their looks, like changing their weapons from their lances to swords or axes make each of them really unique in their own way, like as you said the Ottaman's Elite Lancers look absolutely beautiful in-game Very good follow up video and hope to see more!
Yknow what, I looked around for a source but I'm ashamed to admit I can't find one! I read it on the forums originally I think. The commenter seemed really confident about it so I assumed it was a given (my understanding is that "Camel Lancers" didn't exist in the way they existed in the game, with heavy armor and jousting lances, but rather, as light Bedouin-style warriors with a long spear).
It is kinda disappointing that the Ottomans were designed the way they are with a lot of missed opportunities when it comes to cavalry, though I guess they don't need that kind of help I mean it's a pretty broken Imperial civ already. I think it would be a great opportunity for a Seljuq Sultanate variant civ in the future.
Cataphracts for me but I am biased, Byzantines are my favorite civ. I'm also glad how they work in Age of Empires 4 because my brain disliked their execution snd implementation in AoE2. Cavalry weak to archers? Doomsday has come! Add: The Cataphracts also wield swords most of the times("trot closer, horse, I want to hit them with my sword!") helping differentiate them from other knights and lancers, and can get a snazzy teardrop shield! Yes, Cataphracts for me!
zhu xi legacy imperial guard's armor is inspired from jin dynasty's cavalry armor but jin dynasty copied from Liao dynasty[khitan dynasty[ mongol khagante]] .after Liao dynasty fall jurchin ppl established jin dynasty and they almost copied all of liao's armor style
I just wish they called it something more distinct than “imperial guard” and maybe made the unit stand out more. In game it overlaps with the Chinese lancer too much.
@@ChillyEmpire ye if they named them differently it might be good and made their design more like tang dynasty's armor it will be more fit on them,in ancient chinese history they called their elite cavalry as the shi ,if dev named them like this imperial guards will be even more unique
Personally i go often Meinwerk. But i don´t know if the armor upgrade for the knights actually makes that much of a difference. Once again the problem that you are an infantry civ but lose to the "better infantry"-civs. The knights are decent but the others just have it better (also if you have already a cav civ in the team it´s not that helpful but only sometimes) And ranged units ... well if you have relics you can at least afford them. Being an HRE player is suffering Q.Q
I think out of all designs the castle age french one is my top though chauvinism might be at play here lol, the full gold helmet for the imperial one makes it worse looking. My issue with the mounted samurai is the same as many others, the shield. You got this amazing model(s) with vibrant colors but then they decided to put this trash can lid looking shield and I can't unsee it everytime I look at the unit. The bannerman looks better just because it doesn't have it imo.
These are the kind of tier lists the community needs
I'm liking this series! After you go through units, I think it would be fun to also rank buildings for their aesthetics. Looking forward to the next one!
The english knights having sallet helmets makes perfect sense, it was the most popular helmet in late medieval england. Despite people commonly associating the sallet with the germans the helmet is actually Italian in origin, and its popularity as a cavalry helmet was first adopted by the French. The English then adopted it from the french. The Germans are relatively rather late out with adopting sallets for their knights.
The sallets that were used by the english, french and burgundians also look different to the ones used by the germans (although there is also overlap in styles). In-game the sallet given to the english is actually a real english example, called the Durham Sallet or the Witton-le-Wear sallet (from where it was found) and would not be a style you see notably in germany.
While for visual distinction they could've elected to display earlier forms of english armour with bascinets etc, it would make less sense because the english knights would've fought on foot in that period. They only go back to fighting on horseback in the late 15th century, for where the armour in game is based on. At that point I think displaying the germans with older forms of armour would've made more sense - but then people would be mad since they expect to see gothic armour.
(Also a small note, the word sallet should be pronounced with a hard 't' because it's an english word, in french the word is actually salade and not sallet)
Interesting! That's really juicy info thanks so much for that.
@@ChillyEmpire having watched the rest of the video since writing that comment I can have a few more historical tidbits:
The shoulder bit on the Abbassid knight is meant to be lamellar pauldrons. The abbassids and other arabs/persians did make plenty of use of lamellar, since they adopted it from the Tang dynasty and later also the turks/mongols. But Lamellar the middle east falls out of use during the 14th century, so the knight probably shouldn't be wearing it since it's clearly based on later aesthetics.
The byzantine cataphracts are some of the most misrepresented in popular perception. The padded armor thing is a misunderstanding of what an 'Epilorikon' is, which is actually a surcoat. The cataphracts are mentioned to wear Epilorika in 10th century sources such as the Taktika but it's not supposed to be padded armor, instead just a surcoat similar to what later western knights wear. The curved swords they're using are called 'Paramerion' and they're a thing that the byzantines adopted also around the 10th century from the various turkic groups they were in contact with - I think the sort of back and forth curve in the game is supposed to remind of early Avar sabres. I don't know if that is correct for the 10th century though.
In these 10th century sources cataphracts are also mentioned to carry two swords, one straight and one curved, with the curved one often carried on the saddle. Besides this they carry also at least one mace on the saddle but some sources say 'several'. Similar things is actually pretty common in other places too, western european knights wearing extra swords on their saddles shows up from at least the 13th century onwards, with also wearing maces or axes besides this is also common. Saddle maces are also seen worn by mongol and indo-persian cavalry etc.
Moreover, the byzantine cataphracts in the Taktika are also mentioned to carry bows. Heavily armoured archer and melee hybrid cavalry is very common throughout Eurasia, with the Mongols, Persians and Ottomans also utilizing this. One ottoman military treatise, the Silashorname, mentions a technique to hold the lance tucked in under your thigh while shooting a bow. A 14th century mongol-persian illustration shows a lance tied onto the hand and foot of the rider.
When it comes to the Iron Pagoda cavalry, despite their modern popularity they only existed for like 2-3 decades during the Jin-Song wars and were not all that militarily impactful. The armour they wore is also not really that unique, full suits of lamellar show up since the Han dynasty at least and is depicted in Tang murals etc. The full face lamellar protection is the main visually unique bit, but besides that you'd see full covering coats of lamellar with large pauldrons used way before and also after them. In Tibet this style of lamellar remains in use up to the 18th century or so. The face lamellar coverings are also adopted by people like the mongols etc, and the descendants of these armours can be see in the Mongol Shahanmah from 14th century Iran for example.
Brigandines are popular armours in most of asia from the 14th century onwards, in china they are adopted either in late Yuan or by the Ming dynasty. The mongols themselves also adopt brigandine type armours and spread these to other regions such as Iran, Rus lands and the Ottomans etc. There's an alleged Ottoman brigandine in the Royal Armouries which they label a 'Karkal'. There's also fragments found of a mongol brigandine from Tuva Cave dated to the 14th century. Iconography from Indo-Persia from the late 14th century onwards also tends to show brigandine type armours, and the later indian 'coat of nails' descends from this (although at some point they just stopped putting plates into them since guns made them obsolete, much like Qing brigandines also eventually stopped having plates).
The guandao (or Yan Yue Dao, which is its more technical name) is a surprisingly late development. We only start to see it appear during the late Song and Yuan dynasty, and its popular form is Ming dynasty. Despite it's common association with the Three Kingdoms period and Guan Yu, hence its name, this was only something which happened in the Ming Dynasty due to the Romance of the Three Kingoms novel, and the weapon would not have existed for long before that. In the Song Dynasty we see some other forms of long dao used on horseback such as the Zhao Dao (also known as San Jian Liang Ren Dao or Er Lang Dao, I don't think Zhao Dao gets you any english results on google despite that being its name in some military encyclopedias).
The Sipahi are both light and heavy cavalry. The game isn't technically wrong in labeling the lighter cav sipahi since the standard of equipment on them wasn't that strict, but the heavier lancer cav should definitely also be sipahi and would probably be more correct. All sipahi would've had bows, but some would've also had lances as mentioned above which they used alongside their bows. Of course, they also carried swors and maces as well for closer melee combat.
The Mongol Kheshik is using a type of chinese Ji, I don't think we have any evidence for these being used on horseback or by Mongols but it looks cool I'll give it that.
And lastly for the samurai, besides the shields which I don't think have any basis in Japan, they're pretty damn good. Naginata was a popular weapon on horseback, although by the Sengoku period it would've become a lot less popular in favour of the Yari which began to become popular around the 14th century.
@@duchessskye4072 Bro...this comment is insane. I loved reading through this. I really appreciate your historical insight - how do you know so much about so many different cultures?
@@ChillyEmpire Several years of being a nerd mostly, and hanging around other nerds. I try to do research on the things that interest me and my interest changes constantly so I end up picking up things from all over.
Most of my knowledge isn't my original research, while I of course try to do some of that and double-check sources etc I know people who themselves research various aspects and I hang around forums or servers where they share their knowledge and I can ask them about things.
It's pretty much inevitable to learn about different cultures because a lot of them are connected in some way and you can't really fully understand a culture without understanding its surroundings and what influenced it etc, so I end up just looking into a bunch of different things in the end. For example I had a brief period where I was really into Song/Jin dynasty china, which later led to being interested in Yuan, and for that I learned more about the Mongols as a whole, which led me to mongol-controlled Persia, and now things surrounding that is my current obsession.
A lot of it is just talking to people who know more than me about a specific field really. And some of it is my personal time spent looking at the sources they direct me to or mention.
But when can we expect the tier list on the most attractive AOE4 pro players and content creators?
does that mean we will get a face reveal?
It wouldn't be fair to compare someone to AussieDrongo.
Only two categories. "Butt ugly" and "human?"
I wish imperial age cataphracts went harder on the brass/bronze on the chainmail, to match the plates. Same with the rider's armor. It'd just make the whole thing look more cohesive. That said, the "patchwork armor" thing works for the Byzantines mercenary-centric military. It really feels like the imperial age cataphract took the castle age version, and just up-armored it.
A fun detail about the tear-drop shields though is that there's a wide variety of what will be painted on the shield. So your cataphracts and limeti. . . limeta. . . Your cataphracts and spearmen will have a wide range of colorful shield designs that look great when grouped together.
I would really like if you make video's purly about details in history like armors types that diffrent civs used and elite armies
Nice vid i think the knights and lancers are all on point and cool looking. They did a great job there. I just think the Ottoman lancers have weird swords i expected some kind of saber. But nice video
This content is top tier my guy, keep it on (note: i would like to see a villager drip tier list)
They could made Chinese unit better such as Iron Sparrowhawks from Xixia, Iron Pagodas from Liao/Jin and Divine arms, Bu Ren Jia from Song.
Yuan Raider and Imperial Guard could be replaced by ZhuDi’s Duo Yan San Wei and his Heavy Calvary.
Anyway Chinese history have much more interesting stuff than chu no nu(which is just a toy) and GuanDao(a ceremonial weapon instead of practical fighting weapon)
Fun fact all armour that HRE MAA and knights wear in castle it is call Gothic armour and i think there is expemplar in museum that inspired HRE knight armour
broo im loving these videos !!! 💯
hell yeah. this is the type of content i like
Age 4 Ottoman units are the best looking units in the current game imo
I have to disagree.
Everytime i see great bombards roll up my eyes go dark :D
Jukes aside they look good
I have to say just looking at the still images doesn't do justice to the Knights/Lancers, you have to see them in-game to really appreciate their looks, like changing their weapons from their lances to swords or axes make each of them really unique in their own way, like as you said the Ottaman's Elite Lancers look absolutely beautiful in-game
Very good follow up video and hope to see more!
really like the Rus's knights and the cataphracs
the ootd's knight looks op as well, it's just when I see them, I'm like "holy shit gotta run away" 😂
8:38 that's one of the weirdest things I've heard, would immensely appreciate sources!
Yknow what, I looked around for a source but I'm ashamed to admit I can't find one! I read it on the forums originally I think. The commenter seemed really confident about it so I assumed it was a given (my understanding is that "Camel Lancers" didn't exist in the way they existed in the game, with heavy armor and jousting lances, but rather, as light Bedouin-style warriors with a long spear).
It is kinda disappointing that the Ottomans were designed the way they are with a lot of missed opportunities when it comes to cavalry, though I guess they don't need that kind of help I mean it's a pretty broken Imperial civ already. I think it would be a great opportunity for a Seljuq Sultanate variant civ in the future.
Seljuks would be sick!
"she's literally got a gun" hahaha had me lol
Cataphracts for me but I am biased, Byzantines are my favorite civ. I'm also glad how they work in Age of Empires 4 because my brain disliked their execution snd implementation in AoE2. Cavalry weak to archers? Doomsday has come!
Add: The Cataphracts also wield swords most of the times("trot closer, horse, I want to hit them with my sword!") helping differentiate them from other knights and lancers, and can get a snazzy teardrop shield! Yes, Cataphracts for me!
They look like Persian cataphracats
Jesus Christ they murdered my Mounted Samurai. Edit: I still find the katana in reverse when held plus the shield it doesnt make sense.
Great content! May i ask which software/thing you used to put all the pictures and zoom/move on to show them?
Figma! Highly recommend
They probably mentioned this in the comments but the mounted samurai seems to use their swords backwards when they are not charging.
ohhh yeah facts. It looks ridiculous. Like they're wielding falxes or something. I hope they fix that bug at some point.
:O but, but.. the King's shield is so cool!!!
zhu xi legacy imperial guard's armor is inspired from jin dynasty's cavalry armor but jin dynasty copied from Liao dynasty[khitan dynasty[ mongol khagante]] .after Liao dynasty fall jurchin ppl established jin dynasty and they almost copied all of liao's armor style
I just wish they called it something more distinct than “imperial guard” and maybe made the unit stand out more. In game it overlaps with the Chinese lancer too much.
@@ChillyEmpire ye if they named them differently it might be good and made their design more like tang dynasty's armor it will be more fit on them,in ancient chinese history they called their elite cavalry as the shi ,if dev named them like this imperial guards will be even more unique
Hey Chilly will u still do a variant design video for a rus, dehli and mongol variant? U already did the lionheart variant for the english 😊
Yoyo, I'll have to think about it. I don't have too many ideas for what those variants could be if I'm being honest.
now this is content
Personally i go often Meinwerk.
But i don´t know if the armor upgrade for the knights actually makes that much of a difference.
Once again the problem that you are an infantry civ but lose to the "better infantry"-civs.
The knights are decent but the others just have it better (also if you have already a cav civ in the team it´s not that helpful but only sometimes)
And ranged units ... well if you have relics you can at least afford them.
Being an HRE player is suffering Q.Q
I think out of all designs the castle age french one is my top though chauvinism might be at play here lol, the full gold helmet for the imperial one makes it worse looking.
My issue with the mounted samurai is the same as many others, the shield. You got this amazing model(s) with vibrant colors but then they decided to put this trash can lid looking shield and I can't unsee it everytime I look at the unit. The bannerman looks better just because it doesn't have it imo.
LOL trash can lid XD
sipahi looks sexy in IV
very helpful content
As a Chinese, I'm really tired of Zhuge Nu and Guandao appearing in every game, two weapons that have never been widely used on the battlefield.
Bro listened🙏
Imp guard actullylookspretty nice
Ain’t no way
MOORE MORE MORE MORE
Ayyubid's really should have had a mamluk heavy cavalry, not a camel lancer :(
For shame
🔥