When I first got subs in my car, a friend was listening and said, "do you even HAVE subs in here?" I responded by showing them the box with 2, 10" subs in the back. They shook their head and walked away because it didn't break their neck when the bass notes hit. I played in an orchestra for 7 years. I know what live music sounds like. Without a sub (set at an appropriately low level), you are missing part of the live experience. Woofers that are having to reproduce up around 300 Hz and down around 35 Hz just can't do both well (IMHO). At least I've never heard a woofer that could pull off that big a range. Don't believe the hype that "low frequencies aren't directional, so put the subwoofer where you get the loudest bass." You can feel which direction that bass is coming from, so put it as close to the center as possible... or even better, use one with each speaker, as close as possible to the corresponding speaker. Some recordings are going to have deep, rich bass, some are not... and that is because you are at the mercy of the producer and in some instances the recording medium. Set the subs so they sound "right" on your deepest, richest recordings and accept that your other recordings are just not as rich. Don't blame the sub for something that is the producer's fault!
I agree, that's pretty sensible way of doing it, and basically what I'm planning to do once I finish getting my gear all set up. A lot of the time I don't need much bass, but I feel like I'll be missing something, especially if I play any modern pop music, if I don't feel a tiny bit of that low end hitting me. Adjusted right, and I should be able to have some punch for my pop music without it being distracting for rock/jazz/orchestra/etc. At least I hope I can keep from messing with the subwoofer volume. :P
I think is not about the amount / volume of bass, is about to make the lower frequency audible, so we can hear the whole frequency spectrum. Of course must be a balance between the speakers volume and the subs. But i love to hear any low frequency IF the music (or any other sound that come out from my stereo) has recorded low frequencies in it, because that frequencies are part of the whole experience intended by the music artistic composition too, and if the ears go down to 20hz so what's the problem to hear of that range of frequencies that exist in reality ? ( in music and natural sounds ).
A real problem is that a lot of recordings are not mixed propperly below 50hz. This is partly due to monitor speakers that do not go down low enough or mastering rooms that have sound issues. On some recordings you might be hearing too much or too little because the information has not been propperly balanced in the first place.
Yes because they did not have more that 2 sets of monitors in the studio. The good engineers producers will make a master to take out of the studio play in Car Stereos and Home Systems . But that kind of thing is gone out of style today.
That makes a lot of sense. I rarely (never) have to tweak my subs for classical or “unplugged” music, but pop, rock and (especially) jazz make me crazy. Those genres are much more heavily engineered than classical is.
I love my sub, and find I usually don't have to fiddle with it too much. Although my speakers only go down to 60 hz, so for me a sub was necessary as without anything between 60 and 40 hz you really are missing out.
When set up PROPERLY, subs are a crucial part of any "hi end" audio system. The correct sub and the proper setup is key to properly balanced sound levels and when done right, nothing can beat the dynamic range a subwoofer adds to a system.
Thomas Cyr Yeah I was a bit disappointed that he didn’t mention that difference. Sealed vs Ported. Also subs like SVS subs that truly go low without distortion.
It all depends on if you want to hear what the music was composed to be heard as. Recently I really started getting into listening to newer music, the stuff that is mixed well with the sub-woofer as part of the composition, without it the music sounds half dead. Older music was composed without taking the very low frequencies in account, which is why a lot of Classic Rock actually suffers from anemia when true audiophile recordings that use and control low frequencies are learned to be appreciated. Personally I set my sub so low that it only highlights and reinforces my stereo speakers with the sounds created for our pleasure.
If the point is to faithfully recreate real instrumentation and that live musicality, and these people use the lower part of the audio spectrum in their own music or live situations, then why on earth would you essentially delete that part of the experience from your home listening? A GOOD sealed subwoofer, set up and integrated into a 2 channel system CORRECTLY is a wonderful thing. My servo sub gets down to 16Hz, doesnt overpower, and melds fantastically, and I can enjoy the same "feeling" of sub bass the author talks about in a live setting in the comfort of my home.
I myself was a drummer of a band back in college. After that i decided to have a dedicated set up music and movies. However, there are music recordings that the bass tone was not even great. There are a lot of kick drums with different tones. I think this is subjective as i feel the sound are richer and fuller with a sub. Of course the sub needs to blend with your speakers where like the bass is coming out from your speakers not the sub box itself.
My experienc is that you also need a very good amp to hear the subtle differences between kick drums. But when the gear is OK, they are very well audible!
2×REL 2.2 here. Speaker level inputs. Follow REL setup instructions and leave it well alone thereafter. DSP can take care of room modes. Cerebral listening is all well and good, but music needs visceral impact too!
I have a love hate relationship with my audio system subwoofer. On some tracks with very, very low bass it adds something, but otherwise seems to really mess with the soundstage. For the most part I'd rather not use it. Totally agree with you here Steve.
To each, his or her own! I have bookshelves which go down to 50hz at +-3db. This suffices for quite a lot of music of my choice. But I do use 2 subwoofers sufficiently toned down to just round off the bottom smoothly. Yes, my setting is a hometheater but my usage is 80% music in stereo.
I have been using bi-amp systems with subs for a long time. The main reason that I like them even with full range speakers. Is that when you limit the bass output of a full range speaker, it is an easier load for both the speaker and the amp driving it. To me it makes the mid-range blossom, where most of the detail lives. To me it makes the vocals really shine. Most of the time, when properly adjusted, the sub woofer does very little. But when its needed they can add a real dimension to the music. I am a bass player and I love to be able to hear and feel the subtle differences that distinguish one bass from another.
Agree completely. I use some old western electric speakers which are known for their midrange clarity and I use subs. Instead of detracting from the midrange it does the opposite and gives a "base" for the midrange to sit upon, pun intended. If my speakers went down to 35hz +/-3db I could live without a sub . A good sub (or a few) shouldn't be noticeable until you shut them off and hear what you are missing.
The subwoofer haters fall into two categories. 1) bass haters in general. They love an ethereal "fast" sound unencumbered by 1/3 of the audio spectrum. 2) Those that form an opinion centered on a bad sub setup. excess overlap and midbass bloat doesn't sound good. Also...the 80's was full of "stadium sound" reverb and notched up midbass.
Those who say they hate the “boom boom boom” of low bass have not experienced a properly adjusted system. If set properly, you can’t tell where the bass is coming from.
I added a REL Stentor to my Maggie IIIs decades ago. Sometimes I forget to turn them on and the difference is striking. Even a soprano's voice sounds diminished.
I couldn't agree more. I recently damaged my subwoofer and after taking it off line I realized that I didn't really need it after all. And, yes, the fiddling to get it just right was a constant frustration that took my attention away from the music.
If you like electronic music , hip hop, etc then you absolutely need it. Many composers in that styles use the sub as if it were a "musical instrument", not a "speaker".
If you listen to music that uses those octaves like organ music then yes a subwoofer or two is a great add. But only if you can properly blend them in your room which is very difficult. I noticed at the PS Audio room at the last RMAF they had a two large dual driver REL subwoofers in each corner. It seems like those big subwoofers disappeared. I thought that was a good example of properly blended subs increasing the soundstage and drama of the music with no apparent draw backs. And he played Reference Recordings Rutters Requiem which has organ. This excellent recording needs a properly blended sub or equivalent to hear it in all its glory.
I agree. I was at the last RMAF and heard the same PS Audio room with perfectly integrated subs. I bought the Focal 3's and have tried to duplicate the same at home to no avail.
I heard that John Hunter from REL set them up.....That's why they sounded so great....To get that seamless integration between satellite and sub so the sub doesn't draw attention to itself is the key.....but very difficult to achieve....My system would greatly benefit from one but I'm kind of leary of getting one due to all the stuff I've read and heard.....
Helps my configuration a lot(!!). But I am using it carefully and it took quite some time to have them blend with my speakers. Sonus Faber concertinos and yamaha yst sw315. Sub comnected to pre-out (love pure direct from my marantz). Crossover on woofer around 50hz, volume leas than 9 o’clock. But yes, I agree that if I had cremonas/venere I probably would not need it.
It took me a while to dial in my subwoofer, but now I'm happy. I set it to come in *below* what my Elac B5's can produce. The Elac B5's go down to 46Hz. My Emotiva Basx Sub8 is set to come in at 40Hz and below. It sounds great. I didn't like the sound integration when I used a higher cross-over.
I bought new speakers, rated down to 60hz. I had them for a few months, enjoyed them but always felt they were lacking something. I bought a budget subwoofer (Pioneer sw-8mk2 for $200 CAD) and wow, what an incredible and instant difference. I don't want boomy sound, I just wanted to fill in the gaps and this subwoofer does. Just spend time playing with the sub settings until you are happy. If you are at all curious, I say go for it. You'll probably be amazed like I was.
I've been playing around with subs for close to 30 years and my day job is packaging and designing infotainment systems in Ag applications. It has been my experience that most people (including myself) enjoy exaggerated low frequencies. So much the case that it is not an option to not have a subwoofer in my employer's premium Ag cabins. More specifically for my own listening tastes, I prefer quality exaggerated bass over quantity. ie: sealed over ported Sure, tight accurate bass takes more power for the same effect, but in my opinion it is worth it.
There are outcomes of workshops, that 1 or even 2 Subs in stereo are a big advantage in calming or destressing the entire sound and in imaging - even up to mid range! It/they need to play right on the same level of the speakers, not only a bit above. Most people set them unintentional too high! Because they "need to hear" the sub, what for they bought them?... wrong! Its not to have more bass then! They must be fully integrated in the sound, not noticeable separatly. And it/they must play time coherent with the speakers!! Very important. This measurement to include high quality subs to a stereo system can put the whole experience to a significant higher level! Or damage it, if these points are not considered!
I used to fall in the category of that last sentence. But now I have better understanding that a sub is for deeper bass not necessarily to make it louder. I found that the sub needs to disappear when blending.
Agreed. Music is a more physically visceral and emotional experience with tastefully balanced bass. Why make & record bass instruments? (I play bass - Its my reference point when listening). If you can't follow the individual bass notes something's amiss and it's not High Fidelity ;-)
Correct. It takes a while to get the sub to the correct point where it melds into a cohesive whole...but once you've arrived at that point, just sit back and be happy. Very happy.
In my older years here (66). Although my music preferences are changing, progressive rock is the genre I prefer most and I like a deeper bass sound to go along with that.
I'm happy I added a sealed sub to my LS50 Wireless, first of all because I'd be missing the bass without (although the range is nice for the size) and secondly it is easy to see just how much it relieves the drivers of that hard low end work, even when I set the crossover frequency very low. And then of course I do watch movies. Interstellar is an extreme example of course but without the sub, the soundtrack would be missing a lot. Miss me with those low frequency sound effects though. I can understand when someone doesn't want to bother with bass in music. I have the impression that bass levels are all over the place in different recordings and sometimes that's a little bit unnerving for me as well. With low bass dialled out you just don't have to deal with that. Oh yes and in live events, just as they seem to be far too loud in general, bass is hardly ever under control. Having Marcus Miller reduced to a constant drone made me want to hit the audio engineers once.
I built a subwoofer that was actually intended for home theater and ended up making one of the two most musical subs I have ever heard. This, coupled together with two very large speakers in a very large room with lots of equipment and hefty amplifiers, I have achieved a very balanced sound with all of the other great qualities of sound to be included as well. Only 10 minutes of setup with a RTA program and reference mic, dialing in the adjustments on the dbx gear is all it took. I don't have to fiddle with it when I play different things, it's just always right. Re-calibrated twice a year just to maintain peak performance. I always use custom passive subwoofers. I've never heard a mass-produced subwoofer that sounded as good, whether passive or active. I usually stick to pro audio as well, mostly as a result of this issue. Pro audio has more room for customization and calibration.
Depends on what kind of music you like. I listen to classic rock,classic R&B and jazz fusion,not really bass driven music. I do use a 200watt Klipsch 10" sub for a little deeper tone and have it turned up just enough as not too interfere with the mids and highs. It sounds real clean and the bass is real tight.
Sealed subs are best for music. I've had sealed subs since the late 1970's. And the speakers were designed to work with the sub(s) with an acoustical roll off @ 70 htz.. Placement of the sub in the room is critical for proper integration for music and also set at a volume level that does not overwhelm the main speakers. Get those two things right and it's pure heavenly sound.
I subed(pun intended) because of this topic, you hit it bulls eye, you always adjusting the bass, because of different music, type of recording etc., when it's good it's really good, bad it's nerve racking, most 21st century music uses that GD tr808 beat machine that shakes the house down, that's why I appreciate older music much more than ever now, great video!!
I just recently discovered exactly what you're talking about here. I've got a few 2.1 amps, and I was constantly fiddling with the sub volume and crossover. It was driving me crazy! So I bought a small 200w stereo, with Bluetooth. Three knobs, treble, bass, and volume. I quickly discovered that I only had to set them once, and I was cured! Happy listening ever since!
i have two little cabasse speakers and an extra subwoofer that actually adds the little extra bass push i needed. and true, you need to set up the volume of the sub properly to have it blend with the sound of the speakers and not overpowering the sound... also, i think it all depends of your system, size of your room etc.
If the subwoofer has speaker level inputs and outputs, I think the problem of constantly adjusting the subwoofer to match up with the main speakers can be mitigated. Setting the connection like this : Amp > sub > main speakers, and adjusting the sub crossover like 10-15 hz above the low end threshold of the main speakers usually works great. It adds just about enough oomph, something that the main speakers would otherwise not reproduce. I however prefer connecting the (active) sub to the Amplifier B speaker output, and the Mains to A. That way I can set the amp to A+B when I want to utilize the sub, or just use A when I dont want the sub, like late nights. So you get best of both worlds. Works great for me.
I've always loved simplicity in my sound systems. Mostly using 5-6.5" front drivers with tweeters, whether it be in-car or home. That's where the soul lives and adding a musical sub does round out the lower section, but it's not absolutely needed though.
I hink many Audiophile simply don't like bass. It is true that reproduce good bass under 40Hz whitout a subwoofer is quite difficult. So many Audiophiles who are more focusses on detail and soud staging prefer sacrifice this part of sound/music. I cannot. Even in concert you can find different bass tuning depending of the artist performing. I used to have Klipsch RF7 mkII because they are great in bass reproduction but after 2 years of pleasure, other aspecs of these speakers began to hurt me. I changed these great speakers for Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and a REL T9 subwoofer. The Sonus gives me the huge sound stage and sweet high with very open medium, the REL gives me the physical bass I can ear in live music. I am in heaven now ;)
I think you may be right. Most baby boomers were brought up on portable radios, dancette record players etc so record producers never needed to include much bass in the recorded mix. We got used to that, enjoyed that too. In my case it is really hard to listen to new digitally ‘improved’ remixes, such as those from Steven Wilson. I am so used to the originals with 10% of the bassline present that the new version creates huge conflict. This is despite being a huge SW and Porcupine Tree fan and insist on huge bass when possible when listening to his great musical releases. Weird,
I think there are so many bad home theatre based subwoofers on the market. I remember hearing a small yst-yamaha sound better than the Velodyne offering's. It probably had more to do with the balance of bass and the puncy nature of a small sub vs the bone jarring overhang of a 15.
To make a blanket statement any speaker with an 8" driver does not need a sub is not correct. It depends on how that speaker was designed. look at the JBL L212 system from 1977. The 3-ways have an 8" midbass driver, that is in a sealed enclosure with an acoustical roll off @ 70 htz. Which came with a 12" sub. And for music playback, its not difficult to level match the sub to those 3-ways, especially if the sub(s) are near (or beneath the mains, as I have them. Thus a powerful full range speaker). Perfect sub output level, w/o being over bearing
Using B&W 805 standmounters and Quad amps for years. Sublime mid and upper bass! Bought Sonos 5.1 for tv sound. But to my astonishment the Sonos system allows me to play both systems at the same time with stereo music. AND as the Sonos is slowly brought up to half the volume of the old stereo system a most magical experience arrives with ALL music genres. The sub beautifully compliments the 805s. Balancing both systems is super easy with the Sonos app. A very surprising experience. I had never missed the lower octaves before but now i cant go back. The quality of the Sonos bass from the sub is delicate, refined and so easy to control from the app. I guess having standmounts is the key here with no fuss over cross over considerations - the 805s keep doing what they have always done and the sub seamlessly fills in below. I am so unexpectedly surprised and delighted.
I feel my sub compliments my speakers which are monitor audio platinums. The lack a bit of bottom end and the sub adds some weight to the music. I played around with the position of the sub. I found as long as I can't point to where the sound of the sub is coming from , most recordings sound better in my opinion.
Love the show, Steve, but I have to disagree. I think that the key is in using two subs. I listen to rock and love the balls that they give to the music.
Due to the small living room of my apartment, the Q Acoustics 3020is I have provides plentiful bass despite the woofers are only 5 inches. But for a larger living room for pure music listening, I highly recommend floor standing speakers that can extend down to 35Hz F3 or lower. If you are adding in a subwoofer for 2 channel audio, correct setup is key. No matter how good a subwoofer is, if you don’t set it up correctly, it will sound muddy or cancel out certain bass notes.
I rarely adjust my sub now. I read an article about adjusting it, and it said you should turn the volume down quite low to start and listen to lots of music, then very slightly increase it, and repeat until it sounds natural on most tracks. It took a month or so. But now it sounds very warm, natural without booming or being distracting. I perhaps adjust the level slightly, once a month or so and it’s usually down, because of a bad recording. I have a mark on the dial where the usual sweet spot setting is.
I just built an 833-A SET with a Hammond 1642SE transformer to tri-amp my speakers. The mid-range and the tweeters have their own private 245 SET and output transformers. I still have a pair of Klipsch subwoofers and they no longer seem to make the difference they had made.
wow, do i disagree about the need for full range low end extension. just like a top end of the spectrum needs to be there, it just needs not to be elevated above what is normal. it also needs to be consonant with the music. i got spoiled in this way because a friend bought a pair of IMF Monitor IIIs improved which were FLAT to 16Hz and probably out to about 30kHz on top. the KEF B139 woofers had tonality all the way down and with the right TT (SOTA Sapphire) would deliver whatever was recorded either on vinyl or digital. switch in the 10Hz filter on the Thoebe preamp and enough of the naturalness of that bass went away that the filter had to be switched back out. i won't state my aversion to the Hsu but it was affordable. JL Audio is wonderful as is REL (if you could tolerate the protracted adjustment scheme). the Rythmik has the performance and musicality for an affordable outlay and will be what i buy when the time comes. if a loudspeaker goes down flat to 30Hz, it can live well without a sub for a long time and 20Hz even better. it is certainly better to live in a house than an apartment for such antics. i never want my attention to be unnecessarily drawn to any frequency aberration nor if i am running rear channels, i don't want tobe distracted by sounds that don't belong behind me. i have set up my system at times using Dynaquad and nobody realized there were speakers behind them unless i turned them off. that's the way it should be with a subwoofer or super-tweeter. ...hifitommy
Also, to get the best out of bass, with a single subwoofer, you need to put the subwoofer as close to you as possible. This way, the bass frequencies do not bounce off any obstacles before it reaches your ear, and the frequency response for bass is flat. If you cannot put a subwoofer near your head, you need to have multiple subwoofers, to flatten out that frequency response.
I got rid of my two REL Stadium IIIs for the same reason: I was always fiddling with the crossover point, the volume, and their position in the room trying to get them to integrate with my main speakers.
@@trixstermillion2190 what he is saying is you shouldn't be able to point out the sub and "oh look!, the sound is coming from there!" It should blend in with your regular speakers. Paul from PS audio talks a lot about this. Essentially your subwoofer should do the job of making your regular speakers sound like they have the bass that they were lacking.
Hi guys! Definitely a touchy subject. This is a very enjoyable comment section to read. I listen with a 1960s pair of Altec A7 cabs loaded with 1979 Cerwin Vega horns and drivers connected in parallel with Italian 18” bass bins. The current amp is a 1979 Peavey XR-700. I have a old Sunfire Truesub woofer attached through the headphone jack so I can instantly adjust the intensity. I do constantly fiddle with the sub but I find that every recording is completely different and so when I’m really listening I have to at least adjust the console volume for almost every song. And same goes for the woofer. I agree that it isn’t necessary for great enjoyment of the music but it does usually add something special.
I used to have a sub that was tuned to kick in with the stereo speakers. They were made by the same manufacturer as a 2.1 system with a remote control. My listening space was huge and it sounded fantastic. When I moved to a small room they had to go. Miss it.
I rotate through several pairs of mostly vintage 2-way bookshelf speakers for my music system. I was never truly happy listening to any of them until I acquired my $99 Dayton sub-800 8" 80w sub to the mix. I added a pair of 100hz @ 12db per octave high-pass X-overs, by hot gluing them to the back of the box. Once I got the x-over setting and level adjustments dialed in on the sub, all of my speakers now play with much more definition, less low-end distortion, and are able to be played safely at a much higher volume. Getting the placement and balance set correctly, the sub is surprisingly musical and mates well with my system, while never sounding overbearing or bloated. Would larger, possibly floor standing speakers deliver more precise bass without needing a sub? Sure, but they'd take up more room and don't have the placement flexibility of smaller speakers.
It was my understanding that subs are supposed to enhance a wider range then just the deep bass, and that if it’s overbearing or seems out of place, it’s not adjusted correctly. You shouldn’t notice it when it’s there, but you should also miss it when it’s not.
I like my old sony sub, it provides bass you can feel without adding too much to the sound, it's about 1/8th turned up. When people come over it sometimes gets turned up all the way and shakes the windows, you would never guess it's a little 8" driver making that much bass.
they do help alot. especially if you have smaller speakers they help fill out that bottom end. however they must be put on a volume where you cant tell its there but only when you switch it off you notice. they should be set to take weight off your normal speakers and help dig deeper than just 35hz which most speakers reach to. this helps hear more frequencies in songs so i think they are very important most of the time as long as they are dialed in properly.
I run two Bk XXLS400s with Dali ikon 6 mk2's. It just makes the sounds more energised and complete. I agree it can be hard to balance but I eventually got there and it's great for HT and music. I was surprised how much bass the speakers on their own can make however
Given that my bookshelf speakers have a high pass filter at 140Hz, yes in my setup a subwoofer is pretty much required for full range sound. After some tweaking I found that setting the low pass crossover on the sub to 85Hz it gave a nearly flat frequency response from 18Hz upto 21kHz. I do keep the subwoofer volume rather low. It's there to add to the sound not to overwhelm it. People do comment that they don't notice it at all, until I turn off that channel on the amplifier. It's as if that button turns the sound from 3D back to 2D. The highs are still crisp and sprightly, the mid range is solid, but all the depth has gone.
I just hooked up a SVS sb-4000 to my kef LS50w pair and I totally understand what you are saying. Luckily I have the equipment to measure the total system performance. I haven’t decided if I like it or not. The extra bass extension is great. Sometimes I hear the sub and sometimes it’s well integrated. Much more fiddling required.
I own a REL Strata 3, in combination with Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors. (high current connection, according to REL) The bass is tight, low, subtle but present and I love it! I don't know why, but somehow the sub lifts the quality of the speakers and the bass really seams to come out of the monitors. When I switch the sub off: slam in the face!
Pardon? Do you really think I have to PROVE to you, or anybody else, that I'm the owner of my set ???? I think you're a little pathetic jealous person. Please leave ! Nobody is waiting for your comments. Your contributions to the topic are zero.
Think whatever you want to think you idiot, I'm not gonna play your childish games. Now please leave and stop polluting this vlog; nobody wants to read your vicious comments.
It's just a perference either you like it or don't . A good sub set up should roll into your main speaker lower woofer crossover point not clipping into it high or short . Powered subs use their own amps and sometimes they don't match the sound of the amp you are using for the main speakers . And some times the adjustments levels with not be enough on them to get you to where you need to be in your roll off . A good set up should flow into your main speaker not over powering it or fighting with your low range woofer on your speakers it ahould add sounds in its own range blending in with the other mains beautifuly . Another thing is their is two type's of sub woofers Active and Passive . I like the passive myself because i can set the roll over point on the crossover myself and use my own amp to match the sound . But i have friends that love the Active ones it' a choice just remeber to match them and enjoy the Organ's on ELO albums .
When it comes to music some recordings have too much bass. In that case I switch off the sub for those tracks only. Sub is on all the time except for those bass heavy recordings. So yes I think most music sounds better with the addition of a properly setup powered subwoofer.
Active Subwoofers are a bit of a pain in a 2.1 system. I have one and you need to adjust it for each album, if the album is mixed right. For streaming like UA-cam its a Nightmare/ Adjusting for every song.
Totally agree with the bass being overdone in live concerts, especially stadium rock shows. Not sure why the sound engineers can't get that right, but sometimes less is more.
I recently updated my system with new mains and a huge center speaker, and after using the new speakers for 6 weeks I added a subwoofer. I kind of regret adding the sub. You can drive yourself nuts trying to dial it in even with the supplied room correction app and microphone. I just can’t get it to sound “natural” and add anything desirable to the music. It does add a little realism to movies at times. I’m going to play with it some more but there’s a good chance I’ll pack it up and send it back. Back in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s I didn’t know anyone that had a subwoofer as a part of their home stereo system - but now everyone has to have one. I would love to hear a system that is tuned in where the sub sounds good but it seems like it’s very dependent on the quality of the original recording and type of music.
I put together a pretty decent system with Magnepan MMC2's with dual DWM's, powered by a Bryston 4b sst2, running through a Parasound Halo 5. I mostly listen to rock. For those who don't know, the MMC2's are small and meant to be paired with the DWM subwoofer. Without the DWM's the MMC2's are woefully inadequate. But even with the DWM's, I wasn't getting the sound I was used to from something like the 3.6's. So, I introduced two REL Strata III subwoofers I picked up for a great price on eBay. REL subs are servo, which to me is a whole different type of creature in the sub world. The response and integration into the sound is unlike anything I've heard before. This added that level of kick I was missing, while allowing me to stay with a built in set of Maggies. But I found I had to dial in the REL's at the lowest level as to not be overpowering. I admit this made me a little irrationally irritated, as I felt like they were barely doing anything, but the fact is, that was the perfect level. My system now can honestly take on 3.6's, maybe even better. Subs can be great, but I think it's a matter of the music you listen to, the speakers you already have, the size of your room, and of course the sub you choose. Personally when it comes to music, I would never do a non-servo sub again.
I enjoy my music without a subwoofer. The phase of the subwoofer is a major problem for me, usually the bass notes from a subwoofer are produced much later than the midrange and high frequency notes. Perhaps I will change my perception if I had a room monitor software to set up the subwoofer correctly.
When someone says “too much bass” means they have bad set up Very few speakers can go down below 30 Hz The other thing is when we put cross over around 100-110 Hz means you wanna add to lower mid as well.
What about that SVS sealed sub you just reviewed? You had very positive things to say about it’s performance for music. Could it be the issue is crappy or gimped subs in general and maybe the reco is to get truly amazing sealed subs for music?
I have a pair of bookselfs loudspeakers that drop bass on 45 hz ( +- 3 db) !Can reproduce low frequencies well but ultra low- deeps bass nu, but isn't necessary, because MUSIC in general don't need very ultra-low-bass ! And some people that like to hear music , don't whant to hear like ( boom-boom-boom) all the time !A proper good loudspeaker is all you need ! ( my personal opinion) The 5.1 or 7.1 fans ... YES a big subwoofer is a must, for people who watch films and playe games ... but not necesary in music department ! Greatings from Romania Steve ! Much respect to your channel !
Those that gives up on a sub never manages to get the a decent flat frequency response, or cant transform the sound their after into a frequency response. And you have to have steep filters on the sub to cancel out room gain in certain frequencies, and most cheap subs doesn't have that so it becomes very difficult to integrate a sub with low hitting speakers.
A really tough problem. Well, good deep base is good deep base and you need A LOT of moving surface and power to achieve it. With smaller mid-woofers you can only get the quality (and even this is very difficult), but almost never the quantity. You might even get something more realistic and convincing if you employ smart room treatment. But you never get the full real effect without a pair of good subs. I write these words in grief, as I happen, too, to live without a sub. I'm not unhappy with the bass I get from my system now, but I'm unhappy to know that even if I spend the time and money and effort to design and implement a really good matching subwoofer (a pair, actually), I still may not be completely satisfied by the result. Because, yes, I agree with you, I have the same experience and this all intimidates me and makes me rest "contented" with a bit less than really- real bass and a true glory and bliss for the rest of my music. (Yet, the restless, perfectionist audiophile ghost, still speaks deep into my mind, telling me tales of uncompromised musical experience and secrets for the construction of the perfectly-perfectly matching subwoofer!...)
Like mine. Woffers are 4-8"(250 watt amp) the sub 12" 125 watt. When its set right for the material its awesome. But yes the fiddling and the controls on the hack are a pita. Worth it for me.
My old B&W subby died in my 2.1 system. Recently, I upgraded to Focal Kanta 2s, and I can say that I don't need a subwoofer with these speakers, which go to 35 Hz. Fiddling with the subby was tedious, as you said. And BLADE RUNNER 2049 sounds superb in 2.0. I think the key for 2.0 full range sound is LOTS of amp power and the right speakers.
Steve, I completely agree. Subs for music can often cause more trouble than they're worth. BTW I have Magnepan 1.7is in a moderately sized room and there's too much bass. I turn the bass down on my McIntosh preamp to lighten it up and "unclog" the low midrange. This is despite having treated the room with bass traps. Actually, I find this bottom heaviness quite perplexing. Anyone else experience this?
I have the Klipsch R28PF and I have plenty of bass. I couldn't imagine needing a dedicated subwoofer. However, I can understand the modern fascination with subwoofers as we transition more completely away from replicating live music to digital computerized sounds paving a new frontier in one's listening experience.
i am using very nice but small budget speakers, the MB42X's by Micca and i really like the clear presentation. With a 4 inch mid bass, these speakers have a surprising amount of bass, particularly bass guitar tones. They obviously do not hit very hard and in this case, i feel that a small, well behaved sub woofer adds the extension i want for certain tracks.. I don't however feel that full range speakers necessarily benefit for the plausible reasons you mentioned.
I use Goldenear tritons with powered subwoofer with Primaluna amp. And wow not too boomy or flat. Also they don’t give bottom end sound like a dedicated sub because of their shape. Perhaps speakers with powered subs can give someone the best dimension for sound.
My take on it is that if you're missing low frequency base in your setup, you may have too small speakers for the room. Good HiFi speakers usually play the full needed range. For instance my Dali Rubicon 2, in my living room, have no problem playing the full range. That's not big speakers, but for the room, they are sized correctly. I thought about adding a sub, before I bought them, because they did sound like they could need that extra help, in the store. But since the store was much bigger than the room they were supposed to play, I thought I at least had to get them all nice and setup with at least a couple of months of good use, before I made up my mind. After som nice long listening, and moving them around for the best positioning, I came to the realization that they are well enough equipt to do everything without a sub. A sub tend to complicate things a lot. At least the kind of sub most people buy. A great high end sub will of course be better, but it's still something overlapping the other. I prefer a subless system for music, but with speakers big enough to fill the room. Most music doesn't have much in the sub-40hz range anyway.
I agree that they are hard to get right but I like a balanced dose of the lower depths. It's there even in subtle ways on many recordings. My totem forests go down around 30- 40 supposedly, but my b&w sub goes under 20. I prefer it in therr
Love subs. I also love bookshelf speakers. So far, I have never been satisfied with the bass on any bookshelf I have ever owned. I recently got the KEF LS50 Metas and even those sound better with my sub. I don't set the sub to dominate, but to supplement the sound. I am also blessed with my own house so I can play loud if I want. Steve's comment in another video was that the sub should be set so that it sounds like the bass is coming out of the bookshelf speakers. This is great advice. I have a small "near field" listening room with a 10' Velodyne sub and the LS50 Metas and NAD amp. I love sitting people down in the listening position and watching their jaw drop.
If that's the case why is it that all ultra expensive speakers have a built in subwoofer like the Gryphons? They costs $150k. Are they built for home theaters?
I have Klipsch floorstanders with dual 6.5¨ woofers. I do use them without my JBL 12¨ 250w sub when the recording has a properly mixed-in, beefy bottom end, since 39Hz +/- 3db is more than satysfying to my ears in my room, even for synths, pipe organs, or 5-string or detuned bass guitars that go lower than that. But when I don't want to throw a thin recording (of which I have a lot) out of phase by equing or cranking the bass control on my receiver, I engage the sub (crossed at 65hz) and boom, bass and drums recover great presence. So in a nutshell, I'm not concerned with bass extension as much as reinforcing the weak, but already present bottom end so many old recordings feature. Love your channel and your candid approach to hi-fi; you are like the anthitesis of that Paul guy from PS audio; LOL !!! Greetings from Argentina.
Never had a Sub , until 8 years ago , bought one for movies surround sound and enjoy for stereo too. I use Rotel 1067 ,Paradigm studio 60 's and Paradigm Servo 15V.2 . I found the sub let the Studio 60's focus on midrange and highs and Sub looked after lows . pipe organ , drums , bass sound awesome . Never looked back . Too complete 5.1 system I have Paradigm Reference series centre and use Mirage 6 " in ceiling speakers for rears . Works great . Sounds great .
I have two systems in two different rooms, one with sub and one without. The sub is not very assertive. I use it more for filling the sound and I don’t fuss with it too much. If the music isn’t doing it for me in one room, I’ll try it in the other. Normally one or the other will work. If it doesn’t, as you mentioned in a previous video, it’s probably my mood that that day and I’ll pick something else.
Base is ace, just don’t over do it. Very hard to find a sub that integrates well, I have had dozens. Eventually settled on an old isobaric, passive B&W sub powered by one of the channels of a very expensive Chord 3ch amp. Got the sub as a gift and it just worked. Tried all kinds of powered subs with various connections and was of the same opinion as Steve. I always wanted that “last octave” as he put it. 20 years of fiddling and I’m now happy, never fiddle with the sub at all and/or notice it until there is a low Bass note and it’s not quieter. If I hadn’t tried to get there as a side bar, I think the process would have driven me nuts. Thankfully I worked in the industry and got to try lots of subs without actually buying them. Unless you can do the same, or can do it as a sideline that you aren’t chasing as a main project for your listening pleasure, I would also advise against chasing that last drop of bass for all the reasons given in the video. That said, I do love what I have and would fight you if you tried to make me go back to my 2 speakers without the sub in stereo. Hi-Fi is ace! Chase the Bass!
I modified the old B&W sub with a much longer port, lowered the output (didn’t matter as the amp is very powerful) and limited, but also lowered the frequency response. I suspect that’s the problem with most subs, they just do way too much. By modifying an old isobaric sub and using loads of power I get a very limited range sub doing just that last little bit....and nothing more. Very difficult to achieve in stereo.
When I first got subs in my car, a friend was listening and said, "do you even HAVE subs in here?" I responded by showing them the box with 2, 10" subs in the back. They shook their head and walked away because it didn't break their neck when the bass notes hit.
I played in an orchestra for 7 years. I know what live music sounds like. Without a sub (set at an appropriately low level), you are missing part of the live experience. Woofers that are having to reproduce up around 300 Hz and down around 35 Hz just can't do both well (IMHO). At least I've never heard a woofer that could pull off that big a range.
Don't believe the hype that "low frequencies aren't directional, so put the subwoofer where you get the loudest bass." You can feel which direction that bass is coming from, so put it as close to the center as possible... or even better, use one with each speaker, as close as possible to the corresponding speaker.
Some recordings are going to have deep, rich bass, some are not... and that is because you are at the mercy of the producer and in some instances the recording medium. Set the subs so they sound "right" on your deepest, richest recordings and accept that your other recordings are just not as rich. Don't blame the sub for something that is the producer's fault!
I agree, that's pretty sensible way of doing it, and basically what I'm planning to do once I finish getting my gear all set up. A lot of the time I don't need much bass, but I feel like I'll be missing something, especially if I play any modern pop music, if I don't feel a tiny bit of that low end hitting me. Adjusted right, and I should be able to have some punch for my pop music without it being distracting for rock/jazz/orchestra/etc. At least I hope I can keep from messing with the subwoofer volume. :P
Thanks
@@mrhobsIf you want your music extremely loud, why not just wear a pair of headphones and use your bluetooth ? It's what I do in my car.
I think is not about the amount / volume of bass, is about to make the lower frequency audible, so we can hear the whole frequency spectrum. Of course must be a balance between the speakers volume and the subs. But i love to hear any low frequency IF the music (or any other sound that come out from my stereo) has recorded low frequencies in it, because that frequencies are part of the whole experience intended by the music artistic composition too, and if the ears go down to 20hz so what's the problem to hear of that range of frequencies that exist in reality ? ( in music and natural sounds ).
Yes to subwoofers. I have two in my main listening room. Sure, music can sound good without them, but it sounds even better with them.
A real problem is that a lot of recordings are not mixed propperly below 50hz. This is partly due to monitor speakers that do not go down low enough or mastering rooms that have sound issues. On some recordings you might be hearing too much or too little because the information has not been propperly balanced in the first place.
You are very wrong here. The placement of your speakers is the real problem.
Yes because they did not have more that 2 sets of monitors in the studio. The good engineers producers will make a master to take out of the studio play in Car Stereos and Home Systems . But that kind of thing is gone out of style today.
Like every Drake record ever made. Can't listen to it with my 2.1 system. Mixing is awful
Yes, when I placed my speakers in the corners, I got a lot more bass response from them.
That makes a lot of sense. I rarely (never) have to tweak my subs for classical or “unplugged” music, but pop, rock and (especially) jazz make me crazy. Those genres are much more heavily engineered than classical is.
I love my sub, and find I usually don't have to fiddle with it too much. Although my speakers only go down to 60 hz, so for me a sub was necessary as without anything between 60 and 40 hz you really are missing out.
I like how with a subwoofer you can feel the bass guitar being played. It feels like its in the same room as you.
Simple solution: turn down the sub untill you reach a point where the sub only accents the total sound, not overpower it. JMO
For every situation you may want to adjust the audio (:
When set up PROPERLY, subs are a crucial part of any "hi end" audio system. The correct sub and the proper setup is key to properly balanced sound levels and when done right, nothing can beat the dynamic range a subwoofer adds to a system.
I like my sealed sub, it is subtle and adds just enough bass. Too much of a good thing can ruin the best of music. My opinion....
Thomas Cyr Yeah I was a bit disappointed that he didn’t mention that difference. Sealed vs Ported. Also subs like SVS subs that truly go low without distortion.
Dexter King I agree, there is a musical difference between subs....
Thomas Cyr Absolutely a sound deference and dont forget the Passive subs difrent brands all of them have a sound of their own.
8 or 10 inch sealed sw. In music, there isn't much at all that is recorded below 34hz.
I agree with you. My subwoofer blends in nicely with my two speakers. It doesn't overpower them. But I still know that it's there and doing it's job.
It all depends on if you want to hear what the music was composed to be heard as. Recently I really started getting into listening to newer music, the stuff that is mixed well with the sub-woofer as part of the composition, without it the music sounds half dead. Older music was composed without taking the very low frequencies in account, which is why a lot of Classic Rock actually suffers from anemia when true audiophile recordings that use and control low frequencies are learned to be appreciated. Personally I set my sub so low that it only highlights and reinforces my stereo speakers with the sounds created for our pleasure.
If the point is to faithfully recreate real instrumentation and that live musicality, and these people use the lower part of the audio spectrum in their own music or live situations, then why on earth would you essentially delete that part of the experience from your home listening? A GOOD sealed subwoofer, set up and integrated into a 2 channel system CORRECTLY is a wonderful thing. My servo sub gets down to 16Hz, doesnt overpower, and melds fantastically, and I can enjoy the same "feeling" of sub bass the author talks about in a live setting in the comfort of my home.
What instruments are you listening to that goes down that far?
Pipe organs go below 20Hz. Electronic music artists like Jon Hopkins are pretty clever with deep bass. Definitely worth having a sub for these.
I myself was a drummer of a band back in college. After that i decided to have a dedicated set up music and movies. However, there are music recordings that the bass tone was not even great. There are a lot of kick drums with different tones. I think this is subjective as i feel the sound are richer and fuller with a sub. Of course the sub needs to blend with your speakers where like the bass is coming out from your speakers not the sub box itself.
My experienc is that you also need a very good amp to hear the subtle differences between kick drums.
But when the gear is OK, they are very well audible!
2×REL 2.2 here.
Speaker level inputs.
Follow REL setup instructions and leave it well alone thereafter.
DSP can take care of room modes.
Cerebral listening is all well and good, but music needs visceral impact too!
I have a love hate relationship with my audio system subwoofer. On some tracks with very, very low bass it adds something, but otherwise seems to really mess with the soundstage. For the most part I'd rather not use it. Totally agree with you here Steve.
To each, his or her own! I have bookshelves which go down to 50hz at +-3db. This suffices for quite a lot of music of my choice. But I do use 2 subwoofers sufficiently toned down to just round off the bottom smoothly. Yes, my setting is a hometheater but my usage is 80% music in stereo.
Bookshelves can sound great; for streaming I use a pair of small Monitor Audio Gold speakers. Without a sub they are good anough for my study.
I too use a subwoofer. It works well for music that can benefit from one. If set correctly U will enjoy it .
I have been using bi-amp systems with subs for a long time. The main reason that I like them even with full range speakers. Is that when you limit the bass output of a full range speaker, it is an easier load for both the speaker and the amp driving it. To me it makes the mid-range blossom, where most of the detail lives. To me it makes the vocals really shine. Most of the time, when properly adjusted, the sub woofer does very little. But when its needed they can add a real dimension to the music. I am a bass player and I love to be able to hear and feel the subtle differences that distinguish one bass from another.
Agree completely. I use some old western electric speakers which are known for their midrange clarity and I use subs. Instead of detracting from the midrange it does the opposite and gives a "base" for the midrange to sit upon, pun intended. If my speakers went down to 35hz +/-3db I could live without a sub . A good sub (or a few) shouldn't be noticeable until you shut them off and hear what you are missing.
The subwoofer haters fall into two categories. 1) bass haters in general. They love an ethereal "fast" sound unencumbered by 1/3 of the audio spectrum. 2) Those that form an opinion centered on a bad sub setup. excess overlap and midbass bloat doesn't sound good. Also...the 80's was full of "stadium sound" reverb and notched up midbass.
The haters fall into three categories. Those who have to live next door to some mug with a subwoofer.
Those who say they hate the “boom boom boom” of low bass have not experienced a properly adjusted system. If set properly, you can’t tell where the bass is coming from.
I added a REL Stentor to my Maggie IIIs decades ago. Sometimes I forget to turn them on and the difference is striking. Even a soprano's voice sounds diminished.
I couldn't agree more. I recently damaged my subwoofer and after taking it off line I realized that I didn't really need it after all. And, yes, the fiddling to get it just right was a constant frustration that took my attention away from the music.
Low volume bottom octave subwoofer support can be nice for some music sometimes.
I have a 10 inch in a sealed box and I love it! I think it makes the sound stage more 3 dimensional.
If you like electronic music , hip hop, etc then you absolutely need it. Many composers in that styles use the sub as if it were a "musical instrument", not a "speaker".
If you listen to music that uses those octaves like organ music then yes a subwoofer or two is a great add. But only if you can properly blend them in your room which is very difficult. I noticed at the PS Audio room at the last RMAF they had a two large dual driver REL subwoofers in each corner. It seems like those big subwoofers disappeared. I thought that was a good example of properly blended subs increasing the soundstage and drama of the music with no apparent draw backs. And he played Reference Recordings Rutters Requiem which has organ. This excellent recording needs a properly blended sub or equivalent to hear it in all its glory.
I agree. I was at the last RMAF and heard the same PS Audio room with perfectly integrated subs. I bought the Focal 3's and have tried to duplicate the same at home to no avail.
I heard that John Hunter from REL set them up.....That's why they sounded so great....To get that seamless integration between satellite and sub so the sub doesn't draw attention to itself is the key.....but very difficult to achieve....My system would greatly benefit from one but I'm kind of leary of getting one due to all the stuff I've read and heard.....
Helps my configuration a lot(!!). But I am using it carefully and it took quite some time to have them blend with my speakers. Sonus Faber concertinos and yamaha yst sw315. Sub comnected to pre-out (love pure direct from my marantz). Crossover on woofer around 50hz, volume leas than 9 o’clock. But yes, I agree that if I had cremonas/venere I probably would not need it.
It took me a while to dial in my subwoofer, but now I'm happy. I set it to come in *below* what my Elac B5's can produce. The Elac B5's go down to 46Hz. My Emotiva Basx Sub8 is set to come in at 40Hz and below. It sounds great. I didn't like the sound integration when I used a higher cross-over.
I bought new speakers, rated down to 60hz. I had them for a few months, enjoyed them but always felt they were lacking something. I bought a budget subwoofer (Pioneer sw-8mk2 for $200 CAD) and wow, what an incredible and instant difference. I don't want boomy sound, I just wanted to fill in the gaps and this subwoofer does. Just spend time playing with the sub settings until you are happy. If you are at all curious, I say go for it. You'll probably be amazed like I was.
I've been playing around with subs for close to 30 years and my day job is packaging and designing infotainment systems in Ag applications. It has been my experience that most people (including myself) enjoy exaggerated low frequencies. So much the case that it is not an option to not have a subwoofer in my employer's premium Ag cabins. More specifically for my own listening tastes, I prefer quality exaggerated bass over quantity. ie: sealed over ported Sure, tight accurate bass takes more power for the same effect, but in my opinion it is worth it.
There are outcomes of workshops, that 1 or even 2 Subs in stereo are a big advantage in calming or destressing the entire sound and in imaging - even up to mid range!
It/they need to play right on the same level of the speakers, not only a bit above.
Most people set them unintentional too high! Because they "need to hear" the sub, what for they bought them?... wrong!
Its not to have more bass then! They must be fully integrated in the sound, not noticeable separatly.
And it/they must play time coherent with the speakers!! Very important.
This measurement to include high quality subs to a stereo system can put the whole experience to a significant higher level!
Or damage it, if these points are not considered!
Exactly !
I used to fall in the category of that last sentence. But now I have better understanding that a sub is for deeper bass not necessarily to make it louder. I found that the sub needs to disappear when blending.
Correct. You should not be aware of the sub.
Agreed. Music is a more physically visceral and emotional experience with tastefully balanced bass. Why make & record bass instruments? (I play bass - Its my reference point when listening). If you can't follow the individual bass notes something's amiss and it's not High Fidelity ;-)
Correct. It takes a while to get the sub to the correct point where it melds into a cohesive whole...but once you've arrived at that point, just sit back and be happy. Very happy.
In my older years here (66). Although my music preferences are changing, progressive rock is the genre I prefer most and I like a deeper bass sound to go along with that.
I'm happy I added a sealed sub to my LS50 Wireless, first of all because I'd be missing the bass without (although the range is nice for the size) and secondly it is easy to see just how much it relieves the drivers of that hard low end work, even when I set the crossover frequency very low. And then of course I do watch movies. Interstellar is an extreme example of course but without the sub, the soundtrack would be missing a lot. Miss me with those low frequency sound effects though.
I can understand when someone doesn't want to bother with bass in music. I have the impression that bass levels are all over the place in different recordings and sometimes that's a little bit unnerving for me as well. With low bass dialled out you just don't have to deal with that. Oh yes and in live events, just as they seem to be far too loud in general, bass is hardly ever under control. Having Marcus Miller reduced to a constant drone made me want to hit the audio engineers once.
I built a subwoofer that was actually intended for home theater and ended up making one of the two most musical subs I have ever heard. This, coupled together with two very large speakers in a very large room with lots of equipment and hefty amplifiers, I have achieved a very balanced sound with all of the other great qualities of sound to be included as well. Only 10 minutes of setup with a RTA program and reference mic, dialing in the adjustments on the dbx gear is all it took. I don't have to fiddle with it when I play different things, it's just always right.
Re-calibrated twice a year just to maintain peak performance.
I always use custom passive subwoofers. I've never heard a mass-produced subwoofer that sounded as good, whether passive or active. I usually stick to pro audio as well, mostly as a result of this issue. Pro audio has more room for customization and calibration.
Depends on what kind of music you like. I listen to classic rock,classic R&B and jazz fusion,not really bass driven music. I do use a 200watt Klipsch 10" sub for a little deeper tone and have it turned up just enough as not too interfere with the mids and highs. It sounds real clean and the bass is real tight.
Sealed subs are best for music. I've had sealed subs since the late 1970's. And the speakers were designed to work with the sub(s) with an acoustical roll off @ 70 htz.. Placement of the sub in the room is critical for proper integration for music and also set at a volume level that does not overwhelm the main speakers.
Get those two things right and it's pure heavenly sound.
I subed(pun intended) because of this topic, you hit it bulls eye, you always adjusting the bass, because of different music, type of recording etc., when it's good it's really good, bad it's nerve racking, most 21st century music uses that GD tr808 beat machine that shakes the house down, that's why I appreciate older music much more than ever now, great video!!
I just recently discovered exactly what you're talking about here. I've got a few 2.1 amps, and I was constantly fiddling with the sub volume and crossover. It was driving me crazy! So I bought a small 200w stereo, with Bluetooth. Three knobs, treble, bass, and volume. I quickly discovered that I only had to set them once, and I was cured! Happy listening ever since!
i have two little cabasse speakers and an extra subwoofer that actually adds the little extra bass push i needed. and true, you need to set up the volume of the sub properly to have it blend with the sound of the speakers and not overpowering the sound... also, i think it all depends of your system, size of your room etc.
If the subwoofer has speaker level inputs and outputs, I think the problem of constantly adjusting the subwoofer to match up with the main speakers can be mitigated. Setting the connection like this : Amp > sub > main speakers, and adjusting the sub crossover like 10-15 hz above the low end threshold of the main speakers usually works great. It adds just about enough oomph, something that the main speakers would otherwise not reproduce.
I however prefer connecting the (active) sub to the Amplifier B speaker output, and the Mains to A. That way I can set the amp to A+B when I want to utilize the sub, or just use A when I dont want the sub, like late nights. So you get best of both worlds. Works great for me.
I've always loved simplicity in my sound systems. Mostly using 5-6.5" front drivers with tweeters, whether it be in-car or home. That's where the soul lives and adding a musical sub does round out the lower section, but it's not absolutely needed though.
This is no yes or no question but a matter of how. Done right it's wonderful :-)
I hink many Audiophile simply don't like bass. It is true that reproduce good bass under 40Hz whitout a subwoofer is quite difficult. So many Audiophiles who are more focusses on detail and soud staging prefer sacrifice this part of sound/music. I cannot. Even in concert you can find different bass tuning depending of the artist performing. I used to have Klipsch RF7 mkII because they are great in bass reproduction but after 2 years of pleasure, other aspecs of these speakers began to hurt me. I changed these great speakers for Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and a REL T9 subwoofer. The Sonus gives me the huge sound stage and sweet high with very open medium, the REL gives me the physical bass I can ear in live music. I am in heaven now ;)
I know exactly what you mean.
I think you may be right. Most baby boomers were brought up on portable radios, dancette record players etc so record producers never needed to include much bass in the recorded mix. We got used to that, enjoyed that too. In my case it is really hard to listen to new digitally ‘improved’ remixes, such as those from Steven Wilson. I am so used to the originals with 10% of the bassline present that the new version creates huge conflict. This is despite being a huge SW and Porcupine Tree fan and insist on huge bass when possible when listening to his great musical releases. Weird,
I think there are so many bad home theatre based subwoofers on the market. I remember hearing a small yst-yamaha sound better than the Velodyne offering's. It probably had more to do with the balance of bass and the puncy nature of a small sub vs the bone jarring overhang of a 15.
One REL good.
Two RELs Better!
To make a blanket statement any speaker with an 8" driver does not need a sub is not correct. It depends on how that speaker was designed. look at the JBL L212 system from 1977. The 3-ways have an 8" midbass driver, that is in a sealed enclosure with an acoustical roll off @ 70 htz. Which came with a 12" sub.
And for music playback, its not difficult to level match the sub to those 3-ways, especially if the sub(s) are near (or beneath the mains, as I have them. Thus a powerful full range speaker). Perfect sub output level, w/o being over bearing
Using B&W 805 standmounters and Quad amps for years. Sublime mid and upper bass! Bought Sonos 5.1 for tv sound. But to my astonishment the Sonos system allows me to play both systems at the same time with stereo music. AND as the Sonos is slowly brought up to half the volume of the old stereo system a most magical experience arrives with ALL music genres. The sub beautifully compliments the 805s. Balancing both systems is super easy with the Sonos app. A very surprising experience. I had never missed the lower octaves before but now i cant go back. The quality of the Sonos bass from the sub is delicate, refined and so easy to control from the app. I guess having standmounts is the key here with no fuss over cross over considerations - the 805s keep doing what they have always done and the sub seamlessly fills in below. I am so unexpectedly surprised and delighted.
I feel my sub compliments my speakers which are monitor audio platinums. The lack a bit of bottom end and the sub adds some weight to the music. I played around with the position of the sub. I found as long as I can't point to where the sound of the sub is coming from , most recordings sound better in my opinion.
Love the show, Steve, but I have to disagree.
I think that the key is in using two subs.
I listen to rock and love the balls that they give to the music.
Due to the small living room of my apartment, the Q Acoustics 3020is I have provides plentiful bass despite the woofers are only 5 inches. But for a larger living room for pure music listening, I highly recommend floor standing speakers that can extend down to 35Hz F3 or lower. If you are adding in a subwoofer for 2 channel audio, correct setup is key. No matter how good a subwoofer is, if you don’t set it up correctly, it will sound muddy or cancel out certain bass notes.
I rarely adjust my sub now. I read an article about adjusting it, and it said you should turn the volume down quite low to start and listen to lots of music, then very slightly increase it, and repeat until it sounds natural on most tracks. It took a month or so. But now it sounds very warm, natural without booming or being distracting. I perhaps adjust the level slightly, once a month or so and it’s usually down, because of a bad recording. I have a mark on the dial where the usual sweet spot setting is.
I tuned the room with a mic that came with my amp/receiver. Did a good job, I only hear the sub when it gets a signal.
New REL’s are a different breed and improve the scale and give it meat especially using speakon direct from the speaker terminals.
I just built an 833-A SET with a Hammond 1642SE transformer to tri-amp my speakers. The mid-range and the tweeters have their own private 245 SET and output transformers. I still have a pair of Klipsch subwoofers and they no longer seem to make the difference they had made.
wow, do i disagree about the need for full range low end extension. just like a top end of the spectrum needs to be there, it just needs not to be elevated above what is normal. it also needs to be consonant with the music.
i got spoiled in this way because a friend bought a pair of IMF Monitor IIIs improved which were FLAT to 16Hz and probably out to about 30kHz on top. the KEF B139 woofers had tonality all the way down and with the right TT (SOTA Sapphire) would deliver whatever was recorded either on vinyl or digital. switch in the 10Hz filter on the Thoebe preamp and enough of the naturalness of that bass went away that the filter had to be switched back out.
i won't state my aversion to the Hsu but it was affordable. JL Audio is wonderful as is REL (if you could tolerate the protracted adjustment scheme). the Rythmik has the performance and musicality for an affordable outlay and will be what i buy when the time comes.
if a loudspeaker goes down flat to 30Hz, it can live well without a sub for a long time and 20Hz even better. it is certainly better to live in a house than an apartment for such antics.
i never want my attention to be unnecessarily drawn to any frequency aberration nor if i am running rear channels, i don't want tobe distracted by sounds that don't belong behind me. i have set up my system at times using Dynaquad and nobody realized there were speakers behind them unless i turned them off. that's the way it should be with a subwoofer or super-tweeter.
...hifitommy
Also, to get the best out of bass, with a single subwoofer, you need to put the subwoofer as close to you as possible. This way, the bass frequencies do not bounce off any obstacles before it reaches your ear, and the frequency response for bass is flat. If you cannot put a subwoofer near your head, you need to have multiple subwoofers, to flatten out that frequency response.
I got rid of my two REL Stadium IIIs for the same reason: I was always fiddling with the crossover point, the volume, and their position in the room trying to get them to integrate with my main speakers.
Really like these short clips of your viewpoints. This makes sense, love the video!
you lower the sub till you cant hear the sub, if that makes any since :)
Yeah but then when you think you can't hear it you switch it off and if it was set up right you will still hear the difference.
Yup. What you want is, you don’t notice it unless it’s gone. Easy to say, harder to dial in.
This is pretty much how REL says to set up their subs.
Since when?
@@trixstermillion2190 what he is saying is you shouldn't be able to point out the sub and "oh look!, the sound is coming from there!" It should blend in with your regular speakers. Paul from PS audio talks a lot about this. Essentially your subwoofer should do the job of making your regular speakers sound like they have the bass that they were lacking.
Hi guys! Definitely a touchy subject. This is a very enjoyable comment section to read. I listen with a 1960s pair of Altec A7 cabs loaded with 1979 Cerwin Vega horns and drivers connected in parallel with Italian 18” bass bins. The current amp is a 1979 Peavey XR-700. I have a old Sunfire Truesub woofer attached through the headphone jack so I can instantly adjust the intensity. I do constantly fiddle with the sub but I find that every recording is completely different and so when I’m really listening I have to at least adjust the console volume for almost every song. And same goes for the woofer. I agree that it isn’t necessary for great enjoyment of the music but it does usually add something special.
I used to have a sub that was tuned to kick in with the stereo speakers. They were made by the same manufacturer as a 2.1 system with a remote control. My listening space was huge and it sounded fantastic.
When I moved to a small room they had to go. Miss it.
I rotate through several pairs of mostly vintage 2-way bookshelf speakers for my music system. I was never truly happy listening to any of them until I acquired my $99 Dayton sub-800 8" 80w sub to the mix. I added a pair of 100hz @ 12db per octave high-pass X-overs, by hot gluing them to the back of the box. Once I got the x-over setting and level adjustments dialed in on the sub, all of my speakers now play with much more definition, less low-end distortion, and are able to be played safely at a much higher volume. Getting the placement and balance set correctly, the sub is surprisingly musical and mates well with my system, while never sounding overbearing or bloated. Would larger, possibly floor standing speakers deliver more precise bass without needing a sub? Sure, but they'd take up more room and don't have the placement flexibility of smaller speakers.
I have a pair of mirage m5si towers and I use a klipsch sub just to fill in the really deep lows that the towers are missing
It was my understanding that subs are supposed to enhance a wider range then just the deep bass, and that if it’s overbearing or seems out of place, it’s not adjusted correctly. You shouldn’t notice it when it’s there, but you should also miss it when it’s not.
I like my old sony sub, it provides bass you can feel without adding too much to the sound, it's about 1/8th turned up. When people come over it sometimes gets turned up all the way and shakes the windows, you would never guess it's a little 8" driver making that much bass.
they do help alot. especially if you have smaller speakers they help fill out that bottom end. however they must be put on a volume where you cant tell its there but only when you switch it off you notice. they should be set to take weight off your normal speakers and help dig deeper than just 35hz which most speakers reach to. this helps hear more frequencies in songs so i think they are very important most of the time as long as they are dialed in properly.
I run two Bk XXLS400s with Dali ikon 6 mk2's. It just makes the sounds more energised and complete. I agree it can be hard to balance but I eventually got there and it's great for HT and music. I was surprised how much bass the speakers on their own can make however
Given that my bookshelf speakers have a high pass filter at 140Hz, yes in my setup a subwoofer is pretty much required for full range sound.
After some tweaking I found that setting the low pass crossover on the sub to 85Hz it gave a nearly flat frequency response from 18Hz upto 21kHz.
I do keep the subwoofer volume rather low. It's there to add to the sound not to overwhelm it.
People do comment that they don't notice it at all, until I turn off that channel on the amplifier. It's as if that button turns the sound from 3D back to 2D. The highs are still crisp and sprightly, the mid range is solid, but all the depth has gone.
I just hooked up a SVS sb-4000 to my kef LS50w pair and I totally understand what you are saying. Luckily I have the equipment to measure the total system performance. I haven’t decided if I like it or not. The extra bass extension is great. Sometimes I hear the sub and sometimes it’s well integrated. Much more fiddling required.
Just seems like it is hard to get great balance with the sound when you use a seperate subwoofer.
Yes, the subwoofer is an extension for bass and it is for use with parcimony and no problem at all.
I own a REL Strata 3, in combination with Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors. (high current connection, according to REL)
The bass is tight, low, subtle but present and I love it!
I don't know why, but somehow the sub lifts the quality of the speakers and the bass really seams to come out of the monitors.
When I switch the sub off: slam in the face!
seams = seems. Sorry!
I agree with you. I made the same phylosophic choice
Pardon?
Do you really think I have to PROVE to you, or anybody else, that I'm the owner of my set ????
I think you're a little pathetic jealous person.
Please leave ! Nobody is waiting for your comments. Your contributions to the topic are zero.
Think whatever you want to think you idiot, I'm not gonna play your childish games.
Now please leave and stop polluting this vlog; nobody wants to read your vicious comments.
You are not going to succeed to seduce me to descent to your level.
Now do you understand these words?
It's just a perference either you like it or don't . A good sub set up should roll into your main speaker lower woofer crossover point not clipping into it high or short . Powered subs use their own amps and sometimes they don't match the sound of the amp you are using for the main speakers . And some times the adjustments levels with not be enough on them to get you to where you need to be in your roll off . A good set up should flow into your main speaker not over powering it or fighting with your low range woofer on your speakers it ahould add sounds in its own range blending in with the other mains beautifuly . Another thing is their is two type's of sub woofers Active and Passive . I like the passive myself because i can set the roll over point on the crossover myself and use my own amp to match the sound . But i have friends that love the Active ones it' a choice just remeber to match them and enjoy the Organ's on ELO albums .
I'm an audiophile.
I could never intentionally leave out any part of the audio spectrum.
The sub(s) stay.
Yes to subs! I want to feel the bass in my chest. If setup right they are by no means a distraction but an extension to the music.
I feel a small sub added a nice level of dimension to my old Infinity Alpha 30's. I still enjoy listening to them.
When it comes to music some recordings have too much bass. In that case I switch off the sub for those tracks only. Sub is on all the time except for those bass heavy recordings. So yes I think most music sounds better with the addition of a properly setup powered subwoofer.
Active Subwoofers are a bit of a pain in a 2.1 system. I have one and you need to adjust it for each album, if the album is mixed right. For streaming like UA-cam its a Nightmare/ Adjusting for every song.
Totally agree with the bass being overdone in live concerts, especially stadium rock shows. Not sure why the sound engineers can't get that right, but sometimes less is more.
Needed a good one to fill in the bottom that LaScalas are missing.
I recently updated my system with new mains and a huge center speaker, and after using the new speakers for 6 weeks I added a subwoofer. I kind of regret adding the sub. You can drive yourself nuts trying to dial it in even with the supplied room correction app and microphone. I just can’t get it to sound “natural” and add anything desirable to the music. It does add a little realism to movies at times. I’m going to play with it some more but there’s a good chance I’ll pack it up and send it back. Back in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s I didn’t know anyone that had a subwoofer as a part of their home stereo system - but now everyone has to have one. I would love to hear a system that is tuned in where the sub sounds good but it seems like it’s very dependent on the quality of the original recording and type of music.
I put together a pretty decent system with Magnepan MMC2's with dual DWM's, powered by a Bryston 4b sst2, running through a Parasound Halo 5. I mostly listen to rock.
For those who don't know, the MMC2's are small and meant to be paired with the DWM subwoofer. Without the DWM's the MMC2's are woefully inadequate. But even with the DWM's, I wasn't getting the sound I was used to from something like the 3.6's. So, I introduced two REL Strata III subwoofers I picked up for a great price on eBay.
REL subs are servo, which to me is a whole different type of creature in the sub world. The response and integration into the sound is unlike anything I've heard before. This added that level of kick I was missing, while allowing me to stay with a built in set of Maggies. But I found I had to dial in the REL's at the lowest level as to not be overpowering. I admit this made me a little irrationally irritated, as I felt like they were barely doing anything, but the fact is, that was the perfect level. My system now can honestly take on 3.6's, maybe even better.
Subs can be great, but I think it's a matter of the music you listen to, the speakers you already have, the size of your room, and of course the sub you choose. Personally when it comes to music, I would never do a non-servo sub again.
I enjoy my music without a subwoofer. The phase of the subwoofer is a major problem for me, usually the bass notes from a subwoofer are produced much later than the midrange and high frequency notes. Perhaps I will change my perception if I had a room monitor software to set up the subwoofer correctly.
When someone says “too much bass” means they have bad set up
Very few speakers can go down below 30 Hz
The other thing is when we put cross over around 100-110 Hz means you wanna add to lower mid as well.
What about that SVS sealed sub you just reviewed? You had very positive things to say about it’s performance for music. Could it be the issue is crappy or gimped subs in general and maybe the reco is to get truly amazing sealed subs for music?
I have a pair of bookselfs loudspeakers that drop bass on 45 hz ( +- 3 db) !Can reproduce low frequencies well but ultra low- deeps bass nu, but isn't necessary, because MUSIC in general don't need very ultra-low-bass ! And some people that like to hear music , don't whant to hear like ( boom-boom-boom) all the time !A proper good loudspeaker is all you need ! ( my personal opinion) The 5.1 or 7.1 fans ... YES a big subwoofer is a must, for people who watch films and playe games ... but not necesary in music department ! Greatings from Romania Steve ! Much respect to your channel !
Those that gives up on a sub never manages to get the a decent flat frequency response, or cant transform the sound their after into a frequency response. And you have to have steep filters on the sub to cancel out room gain in certain frequencies, and most cheap subs doesn't have that so it becomes very difficult to integrate a sub with low hitting speakers.
A really tough problem. Well, good deep base is good deep base and you need A LOT of moving surface and power to achieve it. With smaller mid-woofers you can only get the quality (and even this is very difficult), but almost never the quantity. You might even get something more realistic and convincing if you employ smart room treatment. But you never get the full real effect without a pair of good subs. I write these words in grief, as I happen, too, to live without a sub. I'm not unhappy with the bass I get from my system now, but I'm unhappy to know that even if I spend the time and money and effort to design and implement a really good matching subwoofer (a pair, actually), I still may not be completely satisfied by the result. Because, yes, I agree with you, I have the same experience and this all intimidates me and makes me rest "contented" with a bit less than really- real bass and a true glory and bliss for the rest of my music. (Yet, the restless, perfectionist audiophile ghost, still speaks deep into my mind, telling me tales of uncompromised musical experience and secrets for the construction of the perfectly-perfectly matching subwoofer!...)
Like mine. Woffers are 4-8"(250 watt amp) the sub 12" 125 watt. When its set right for the material its awesome. But yes the fiddling and the controls on the hack are a pita. Worth it for me.
My old B&W subby died in my 2.1 system. Recently, I upgraded to Focal Kanta 2s, and I can say that I don't need a subwoofer with these speakers, which go to 35 Hz. Fiddling with the subby was tedious, as you said. And BLADE RUNNER 2049 sounds superb in 2.0. I think the key for 2.0 full range sound is LOTS of amp power and the right speakers.
Steve, I completely agree. Subs for music can often cause more trouble than they're worth. BTW I have Magnepan 1.7is in a moderately sized room and there's too much bass. I turn the bass down on my McIntosh preamp to lighten it up and "unclog" the low midrange. This is despite having treated the room with bass traps. Actually, I find this bottom heaviness quite perplexing. Anyone else experience this?
Heard some at a dealers in a large acoustically treated room placed well away from all walls-I thought they were bass heavy.
I have the Klipsch R28PF and I have plenty of bass. I couldn't imagine needing a dedicated subwoofer. However, I can understand the modern fascination with subwoofers as we transition more completely away from replicating live music to digital computerized sounds paving a new frontier in one's listening experience.
i am using very nice but small budget speakers, the MB42X's by Micca and i really like the clear presentation. With a 4 inch mid bass, these speakers have a surprising amount of bass, particularly bass guitar tones. They obviously do not hit very hard and in this case, i feel that a small, well behaved sub woofer adds the extension i want for certain tracks.. I don't however feel that full range speakers necessarily benefit for the plausible reasons you mentioned.
Yes - AX-592 pre-out to SVS SB12-NSD, hi-pass to main-in, KEF Q150s , ~1300 cu ft room. Lots of classical music. Tweaked for weeks to get it right.
I love my sealed sub and for my taste it adds a subtle touch which I like.
Subd are great for music. The only problem is that most people are unable to integrate well enough into their system and room
I use Goldenear tritons with powered subwoofer with Primaluna amp. And wow not too boomy or flat. Also they don’t give bottom end sound like a dedicated sub because of their shape. Perhaps speakers with powered subs can give someone the best dimension for sound.
My take on it is that if you're missing low frequency base in your setup, you may have too small speakers for the room. Good HiFi speakers usually play the full needed range. For instance my Dali Rubicon 2, in my living room, have no problem playing the full range. That's not big speakers, but for the room, they are sized correctly. I thought about adding a sub, before I bought them, because they did sound like they could need that extra help, in the store. But since the store was much bigger than the room they were supposed to play, I thought I at least had to get them all nice and setup with at least a couple of months of good use, before I made up my mind. After som nice long listening, and moving them around for the best positioning, I came to the realization that they are well enough equipt to do everything without a sub.
A sub tend to complicate things a lot. At least the kind of sub most people buy. A great high end sub will of course be better, but it's still something overlapping the other. I prefer a subless system for music, but with speakers big enough to fill the room. Most music doesn't have much in the sub-40hz range anyway.
I agree that they are hard to get right but I like a balanced dose of the lower depths. It's there even in subtle ways on many recordings. My totem forests go down around 30- 40 supposedly, but my b&w sub goes under 20. I prefer it in therr
Love subs. I also love bookshelf speakers. So far, I have never been satisfied with the bass on any bookshelf I have ever owned. I recently got the KEF LS50 Metas and even those sound better with my sub. I don't set the sub to dominate, but to supplement the sound. I am also blessed with my own house so I can play loud if I want. Steve's comment in another video was that the sub should be set so that it sounds like the bass is coming out of the bookshelf speakers. This is great advice.
I have a small "near field" listening room with a 10' Velodyne sub and the LS50 Metas and NAD amp. I love sitting people down in the listening position and watching their jaw drop.
If that's the case why is it that all ultra expensive speakers have a built in subwoofer like the Gryphons? They costs $150k. Are they built for home theaters?
I have Klipsch floorstanders with dual 6.5¨ woofers. I do use them without my JBL 12¨ 250w sub when the recording has a properly mixed-in, beefy bottom end, since 39Hz +/- 3db is more than satysfying to my ears in my room, even for synths, pipe organs, or 5-string or detuned bass guitars that go lower than that. But when I don't want to throw a thin recording (of which I have a lot) out of phase by equing or cranking the bass control on my receiver, I engage the sub (crossed at 65hz) and boom, bass and drums recover great presence. So in a nutshell, I'm not concerned with bass extension as much as reinforcing the weak, but already present bottom end so many old recordings feature. Love your channel and your candid approach to hi-fi; you are like the anthitesis of that Paul guy from PS audio; LOL !!! Greetings from Argentina.
Never had a Sub , until 8 years ago , bought one for movies surround sound and enjoy for stereo too. I use Rotel 1067 ,Paradigm studio 60 's and Paradigm Servo 15V.2 . I found the sub let the Studio 60's focus on midrange and highs and Sub looked after lows . pipe organ , drums , bass sound awesome . Never looked back . Too complete 5.1 system I have Paradigm Reference series centre and use Mirage 6 " in ceiling speakers for rears . Works great . Sounds great .
I have two systems in two different rooms, one with sub and one without. The sub is not very assertive. I use it more for filling the sound and I don’t fuss with it too much. If the music isn’t doing it for me in one room, I’ll try it in the other. Normally one or the other will work. If it doesn’t, as you mentioned in a previous video, it’s probably my mood that that day and I’ll pick something else.
Base is ace, just don’t over do it.
Very hard to find a sub that integrates well, I have had dozens. Eventually settled on an old isobaric, passive B&W sub powered by one of the channels of a very expensive Chord 3ch amp. Got the sub as a gift and it just worked. Tried all kinds of powered subs with various connections and was of the same opinion as Steve. I always wanted that “last octave” as he put it. 20 years of fiddling and I’m now happy, never fiddle with the sub at all and/or notice it until there is a low Bass note and it’s not quieter. If I hadn’t tried to get there as a side bar, I think the process would have driven me nuts. Thankfully I worked in the industry and got to try lots of subs without actually buying them. Unless you can do the same, or can do it as a sideline that you aren’t chasing as a main project for your listening pleasure, I would also advise against chasing that last drop of bass for all the reasons given in the video.
That said, I do love what I have and would fight you if you tried to make me go back to my 2 speakers without the sub in stereo. Hi-Fi is ace! Chase the Bass!
I modified the old B&W sub with a much longer port, lowered the output (didn’t matter as the amp is very powerful) and limited, but also lowered the frequency response. I suspect that’s the problem with most subs, they just do way too much. By modifying an old isobaric sub and using loads of power I get a very limited range sub doing just that last little bit....and nothing more. Very difficult to achieve in stereo.