Studio Speakers: Upgrade to a bigger size or get a sub? - AcousticsInsider.com
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2020
- ►► Need to find your room's low end sweet spot? Get the FREE guide to the Bass Hunter technique → www.acousticsinsider.com/bass...
Are you getting enough low end extension from your studio speakers?
Or do they start to drop off where things get interesting, and you’re wondering if it’s worth upgrading to something bigger.
So you can really feel that punch in the chest and the bass in your gut.
Usually you have two choices:
Get bigger speakers.
Or add a sub.
But which way should you go?
Is there a certain benefit to going with either one or the other? How do you make sure it’s a good investment and that works in your particular room?
That’s what I want to go through with you in this video.
Related blog post on Acoustics Insider:
www.acousticsinsider.com/blog...
Resources in this video:
www.roomeqwizard.com/
Acoustics Insider - Home studio acoustic treatment techniques for audio professionals, but without all the voodoo.
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Jesco Lohan - Mixing Engineer
jescolohan.com/
Thanks for another informative video. Makes a lot of sense.
You’re one of the only ones who knows exactly what they’re talking about ! Thank you !
Very interesting and useful knowledge to have, thank you.
Thanks you for the video... This is exactly what I need to understand.
Wow, nice and succinct, again, impressive work, thank you Jesco.
I am exactly searching for a relative topic as going for 2.1 speaks or just adding a sub. And I knew I would get an answer from your channel, thank you!
This channel is the best. Finally a glimmer of understanding. Thank you.
Agree he is a legend specially with that accent though
Big speakers makes no sense in a small room or when sitting too close. 5.5” speakers + 10” sub, perfect combo!
I would love to see a video about REW measurements of 2.1 setups. I mean, I know how to take the individual measurements of the sub, both individual satellites and so on... but how to integrate the sub measurements into the main measurements for FIR calculations or even just for IR-Filters would be so interesting to me!! Cheers
One of your videos has more useful information that 5 years of other UA-cam “Acoustic Engineers “. Won’t mention names but your channel is incredible.
I prefer both. Big speakers and subs are the way to go for me.
Very good explanation, makes sense to me!..
very thoughtful; impressive.
So Good! Thank You!
Thanks man.
This is awesome. Well explained and normalized for even the non-technical audiophile. My home work station desktop doubles as my setup for high end listening. I have a pair of 5" monitors on each side of the desktop.
The distance between speakers is fixed. There's nothing I can do about it. That's determined by my desk width.
I can adjust the elevation of the speakers because the desktop height is adjustable. I can toe in or toe out, or angle up the speakers. The entire desk is moveable too. That's the extent of my speaker position adjustability.
The desk is inside of my large high ceiling, vinyl floored, living room.
I listen to both headphones and speakers, but prefer listening through the speakers when no one else is home.
Even though the room is far from acoustically perfect, the sound from the speakers is amazing. Amazing, as long as I am positioned within the acoustic sweet spot. Which is about ~0.75-1.25 meters in front of the speakers. A very small sweet spot, but a very sweet spot nonetheless.
What is lacking is bass response under 90Hz. It's there but under represented.
Your video explanation has convinced me I need a sub. Thank you.
So good !
Both. Always add a sub. 8 inch Krk with a 12 sub in a small room.. it’s too much… it’s awesome to have that power 😆
Genelec 8010 + Genelec 7040 Sub here. Might upgrade the 8010 to 8020 but it’s my final choice in my Homestudio. Roomsize is a factor in your „bedroom“, so that was my first consideration. REW helped a lot to get a better understanding of my room-modes. Filter corrections were made in the 20-200 Hz area. Never go higher on that imo.
superb explanation for low bass size matters -- equates to high cost hence rel usually try and sell stacked subs their top end ones cost £60,000
again well done very accurate information
Personally i had 4 subs until now and i am ultra happy with the Genelec 7070 overall the genelecs with the ultra long bassport tube and the aluminium enclosures are simply something i like ...
I've got the same here. Genelec 8050 + 7070 Sub. But I want to upgrade to the DSP SAM Series. The Ones 8351 + two 7360 Subs should be a really great System! But unfortunately it's very very expensive
But didn’t the 4 subs create a flat frequency response that the speakers do not?
Thankyou 👍🏾👍🏾
Easy answer, Both 👍😊
Awesome 🎉
Does more low end energy means we need to add more low end treatment?
great vids and info!! Thanks
Can you do some content on dual sub setups? Since you're talking about low-end sweet spots, dual sub setups seem very relevant here as they provide more flexibility re. where that sweet spot is.
Cool video, thanks! I would also like to hear your two cents about multiple subs in a room!
I have a pair of Yamaha NS5s and will probably get a Yamaha NS8S subwoofer which goes all the way down to 22hz!
@Acoustics Insider
Your vids are no nonsense and straight to the point, unlike a lot of others out there, so thanks a lot.
I also have the P11As and recently a Polk Audio PSW 100. They're seriously good nearfields. Sometimes too good if you're listening to your favourite album in mp3 format... yuk! The sub isn't ideal. I've been tweaking mine for years lol, but I always seem to end up back at flat settings for the P11s, maybe with a slight dip (1db) for the high end level. I have minimal room treatment though, albeit full of "stuff" in corners and on adjacent walls. I suppose my main question is, do you find them a little harsh in the top mids as I do now and again, or would you say I need better room treatment?
Cheers and don't stop making excellent, informative videos!! 👍
Great vid. Thanks. New sub here 😊👍
I faced this issue in my listening room. I had a decent pair of speakers and decided to audition some good quality subs. The subs had really impressive bass, but it was hard to integrate them smoothly without changing the rest of my system to add more control. So I decided to return the subs and get bigger, overall better speakers instead. I'm happy with my choice. The new speakers are overall better than the old ones and they go quite low. They don't go as low as the subs did, but they are very coherent and detailed all the way down.
my sub had adjustable Xover and volume (self powered)
Idk, if i had the choice id go with larger floor standing traditional speakers 9/10 times but lets be honest these days tower speakers with smaller woofers are all the rage. There isn't a huge selection of 10" subwoofer or larger equipped floorstanding speaker models out there. Cerwin vega on the lower end then jbl, klipsch and then you get into the $10,000 plus models. Which most of us aren't willing to spend. I own the klipsch 8000f. Four 8" subs do ok but i still added a rel 12" to my system. I cant complain.
Hey great channel!! whats your opinion on 2 smaller subs? So 2.2 system?
I use 3 rcf 8006 in a cardiod config
My new speakers are better, but I can’t place them where they should be, due to them exiting room modes. Bass was excellent before with a slightly smaller speaker and a good sub in the corner. So the plan is to try even more bass light mains and adding a 2. sub. (p.s. this is a living room consumption type situation with a shitty listening position and no room treatment).
From my understanding. There is some benefit to placing a subwoofer at a potential null in your room, say a 50hz null, where the sub being placed there will effectively reduce the impact of the null on the listening environment, the room.
If that is correct, would it not make sense to always want a subwoofer, preferably 2, that way you can place the subs in the most beneficial spots for even bass response in a room, while also being able to place the monitors in the best spot for stereo imaging and phantom center?
or am I totally incorrect on this?
That's really interesting to see how the lower frequency peaks on your speaker matched the peaks of the sub (sub placement affects this I presume).
But I don't know if that would be a plus or a minus. It might be a plus because those frequencies compliment, but maybe a minus because that complimenting just exaggerates the dips for the other frequencies there? I would love your thoughts on that. Thanks!
thinking so much about adding a neumann 750 at my focals TRIO and kh120 setup...even 8 inch TRios donc go well under 38 hz
quick question: for instance the yamaha hs8s sub is an 8 inch woofer. The woofer though can according to the manufacturer extend to 22hz, which is far less than the yamaha hs8 (they extend to 40hz), eventhough both have the same woofer size. I was thinking about pairing both yamaha systems for optimal crossover solutions, but is that smart? Or should I rather get a third party 10 or 12 inch solution?
Can you make a video showing how to integrate a subwoofer to small monitors?
Great video. My ageing 6.5” fostex woofers are making a big vibration on tracks which are heavy in the sub 80HZ. As soon as I cut everything sub 80 they’re fine. Are they busted, or do I just need a sub to properly play those frequencies?
I have a Klipsch Synergy 7.1 speaker system with F3s being my main front speakers. My sub is the Klipsch SW-450. I purchased the system in 2012 and it is still going strong. My room size is 12x21 with a 7 foot ceiling. The ceiling is a acoustical panel drop ceiling. I rely on my Yamaha YPAO mic to get the clearest sound from my system. I think it sounds pretty decent and I like the way it sounds, but I'm wondering if it would sound better if I added some acoustical foam treatment.
No.. foam is a gimmick
what do you yhink about the neumann kit 1 (subwoofer + calibration mic + calibration software for frequencies and phase correction) already got the kh80's
Jesco, anything on the benefits of twin subs? (Headroom, etc.)
I'd be curious to hear thoughts on this one. I've been told two subs for stereo,
if you look at the specs of your speakers you will understand that no matter what you think about it, you are definitely missing frequencies. In particular, those which are under 35hz. What is interesting to understand is that the subwoofer, being adjustable, allows you to find frequencies that your main speakers are struggling to reproduce. For example ... Let's say your speakers go down to 38hz, to -6db. Therefore, you should understand that this is the limit offered by your speakers. It’s a "flaw", nothing less! So if your subwoofer is adjusted to fully restore dB at frequencies below those possible with your speakers, you get a fuller sound, and more faithful to the recording. But beware! Adjusting a subwoofer is a very delicate technique requiring a VERY developed ear. Question: What is YOUR reason for not using a subwoofer in your stereo listening?
That was poetic
My studio monitors are 2 way- silk tweeter and 5' driver 150 watts and I was thinking about adding a 10' sub aboit 100 to 120 watts. What do you think? Thanks for the info bro.
While I agree the P11A's (which I've had for about 15 years) don't extend very low, surely something must be wrong when you say they roll off from 100 Hz? They are specified to reach 48 Hz, and while this might be optimistic, I had look at my own REW measurements and between 50 to 100 hz the response fluctuates "just" 6 dB without any crazy dips or peaks. I do have an awful dip at 130 Hz though (12-13 dB!) which I'll be building limp mass traps to try evening out. While I have a ton of DIY absorbption in my room including 60 cm deep trapping on the entire front and back walls (actually 80 cm in the rear corners), 10 cm thick absorbers on the side walls, cloud etc., I'm not satisfied. But in my day to day work, I get a good bass response down to G (49 Hz), and even F is workable although it is clearly weaker. That dip is a real Achille's heel, though. Anyway, I was just a bit shocked to hear you say the P11A's don't extend beyond 100 Hz :-) They are the A7X's grandfather and much the same speaker.
If you high pass filter your monitors well above the lowest frequency they can do, there will be less Doppler effect so lower distortion.
Your mostly talking about ported speakers and not sealed?
@@jimthvac100
Either
Maybe im wrong, but what about Carl Tatz aproach? , he seems to be adding the sub in a way that is not only extending the low frequency info, i tryed at my studio and the only way to replicate that perfect alignment until now is putting the sub on top, maybe im missing something.
As for the Sub + Event Opals, wouldn't the sub help in that scenario by taking those frequencies away from the Opals, allowing them to do only from 90htz and up?
Yea, there would be a crossover. This should allow for a bit more mid clarity from the opals at higher volume. If the opals are not producing low frequencies the mid/bass driver can reproduce mid frequencies louder with less distortion.
I'm currently still doing my treatment for my room for just speakers and considering subs afterwards. Should I really do treatment first or add the sub first then do treatment after or vice versa?
ALWAYS ADD A SUB. Once you use sub you never go back.
yess. you super right
Even if I have 8 inch monitors?
@@dayvs even if you have 8inch monitors:)
I just got a kiplich r-12sw, is this a good sub for mixing music? My studio monitors are the yamaha hs5
@@spicet6136 why not YAMAHA HS8s
Great vid! But extension is not the only reason to add a sub. It might be good to cover absolute SPL requirements targeting the bass region. A small speaker might reach down to 20hz but wouldn't play loud. In this case adding a sub would not extend frequency response but would allow for greater SPL from the combination system which may be factor for some, especially those with smaller speakers.
... Same thing. A small speaker that is rated for a 50 Hz low frequency cutoff does reproduce sounds below 50 Hz, it doesn't just stop there. It's just that the amplitude is below a certain threshold (I believe is -10dB from the reference signal) and it keeps rolling off from there, so they are not really heard well in comparison to the rest of the frequencies.
Hello. I have some Krk 5 G4 in a 10 m2 room without acoustic treatment, which subwoofer do you recommend, 8" or 10"?
I have a 12 inch subwoofer under my desk,
..nothing beats the tactile sensation while I place my feet flat on the floor and I feel all of those low frequencies ...even IF, I had speakers with 10 inch woofers, I am very sure I would NOT feel the bass all over my body in a tactile way with them, like I do with a large 12 or 15 inch subwoofer.
ew
Interesting. Had some thoughts and was wonder what you think. Don't subs have the added benefit of placement? This than also goes hand in hand with solving the standing issues as you can place the sub to counter the problems in the ideal listening spot of the room. And.. have you heard of using 2 to 4 subs as bass room treatment? I personally found that last point mind boggling when I first saw rew results.
Following
Sub placement is super valuable, especially multi-sub. I have this conversation a lot with home theatre guys wondering how to fix their low octave room modes. Even two relatively cheap subs placed on opposite walls is a magic trick.
They are not a replacement for acoustic treatment, but compliment each other extremely well.
@@MK-fw4to me too
two subs should be better than one sub to compensate Room Modes
What’s the best sub size? 12 in?
All good reasons I tell people not to buy most of the REL "subwoofers", which I have always called REL woofer additions.
If i have 5inch 305p mkii jbl speakers what size sub should I get 8 or 10 in a medium size room bsmt? Thx👍🏾
My room is neerly 15/10 ft. I have one amplifier of 100 watt. I want a sub and speaker combination. What size and watt spaker should I use? One sub and two small speaker. Please suggest.
Stupid question but how do I know if I have enough space? Can't I achieve the equliateral triangle with any speaker size? What would be a limiting factor for that?
When doing the bass hunter technique, will it work if the speaker I’m using only really goes down to 50hz? I want to do the test to help me decide sub vs speaker upgrade after getting my listening position in my very small room (L3m x W2.7m x H2.3m) but do I already need one or the other to do the bass hunter test properly in the first place?! Chicken or the egg?!
Thanks
Genelec 8030 and svs sb3000? give me alternatives plz
Everybody is talking about how the sub takes over a part of the job of the speakers so there is less distortion: but can anybody tell me how considering most modern subwoofers generally don't have any high pass filters? Should this be in your amp or something?
Is there any advantage with bigger nearfields if you're going to get a sub with them anyway? For example, what would be the difference between 4 and 7 inch drivers if both would be accompanied by a sub? (let's say you're in a nicely treated, sizeable studio environment so that the room isn't an issue)
Really nice question, hope that this get answered
Interested. I have Adam A4V and A7V (the store told me to try them and return the pair I didn't like). I like the size of the 4" but appreciate the lowers on the 7". Subs can be bulky but if I can run the 4" I prefer the sizing in the room. Curious.
so adding a adam sub 7 (32 hz- 150hz) to a adam f7(44hz-50khz) does not make sense ? won't letting the sub do the job under 80 hz let the f7 play the mids in a cleaner way as you mentionned it ? is this improvement for the midsas minimal as you suggested ? would it be even cleaner for the mids if we cut at 150hz ? thanks
Do we need more than one sub for only audio?
does the crossover setting from the studio subs cut the low end on the OUTPUT signal? I have small monitors and I'd like to have a higher&fuller volume by helping them with a sub that will take over all the lows and send just above 180hz to them for example...
Most subs only go up to around 130hz, with the crossover freq usually set around 80 - 100hz.
I'm actually running P11A's in a 4,5x10M room and considering a sub. You think I need to go to a 12"? A 10" won't cut it?
Most big speakers still warrant a sub. Not many speakers other than a few mains and floor standers will provide low end extension low enough to make a sub unnecessary. I have EVE SC208s with an 8" woofer that is flat to 40Hz (36HZ -3dB point) and adding two 12" subs made a big difference.
and, even if they did, you're likely to position your mains in a way that isn't optimal for low end performance
too many times I've heard massive high end speakers that had a brutal null somewhere between 40 and 80 Hz
While I was watching this I received a call from my Sweetwater rep telling me that my sub has come off back order and will be shipped today. No kidding.
Is 10 in enough for a sub?
Nice
Ok, but what defines a big enough sub? How do you determine that beforehand?
Big enough=low enough bass extension
21×20×8.5=3570 cubic feet I need svs dual subs my budget is around 4100 I can maybe bump it up 100 more any recommendations? Thank u.
Thank you very much! Finally something clear cut and, my god, thank you for those measurement graphs. I am facing the same type of situation. I have a set KRK RP5G4s now and am not sure to switch to RP8G4 or getting the KRK S10G4 subwoofer. Theoretically the sub should give me 13 Hz bass extension. There is a lot of talk about room sizes everywhere but unless I am missing the glaringly obvious, no actual references are given that translate into numbers that I can use. What is small, what is big? My room is about 19.5 meters squared or about 54 cubic meters. I have the feeling that this starts to be slightly too big for the RP5s but might not yet be ideal for the RP8s. My room has an odd shape (trapezoid with 2 right angles) and it is acoustically untreated. Anyone's two cents?
Here are my two cents; Feel free to correct my understanding. After following Jesco's Tips for locating the optimal listening position for my room and positioning the speakers according to his phantom center test, I moved my 8" speakers several feet closer to the listening position (about arms length) and heard a strong phantom center that was mind blowing (same speakers & room for a decade). Moving them that much closer allowed me to turn them down, giving me more headroom, but also placing my monitors within the "critical distance" for my room (enter your room dimensions into the Amroc Room Mode Calculator to get this number for your room). Staying within this distance in an untreated room will allow you to hear more of the speaker and less of the room. You may find that your 5" speakers are sufficiently powerful for your room size (meaning they aren't cranked up to near Max Output for your listening level), but you would just like bass extension. I added the KRK sub to my setup and am really enjoying it, even though I'm not getting as much bass extension as you would get.
Regarding room size, Acoustic Fields has a chart halfway down this page (www.acousticfields.com/room-size-volume/) which shows the room volumes they feel like are treatable or too small to appropriately treat. My current room (which is smaller than yours) is in their Red zone, and measurements with REW show a large hole in my bass response that cannot be corrected by Sonarworks. I temporarily moved to another room in the house that corresponded with the yellow zone on this chart, setup using Jesco's methods and found that Sonarworks was able to largely balance the low end without any physical treatment. Unfortunately, I had to return to my smaller room, and despite having the additional low-end extension, I still have a large -12db hole between 50-70Hz. Adding a single sub didn't fix that. I think fixing that is a larger priority (to me) than the bass extension. So here I am, just trying to learn from Jesco as well.
In summary, 1) optimize your listening position, 2) optimize speaker position, 3) then make a decision about the power capacity of your current monitors and the need for a sub.
If I have 8 inch monitors should my sub be at least 1 size up (10inches) or I'm ok to use same size sub as my monitors?
Go 10"
You need the space and treatment to the room, a bedroom isn't going to work no matter the monitors or sub, so keep that in mind
"The room low end sweat spot"
So if I understand that is a listening spot that is independent of where you put your sub?!
If that is not the case then we have a big advantage to use a sub instead of bigger speakers. When the ideal placement of the subwoofer is then not always where the tweeter is or need to be.
You still have to work out where the correct placement of the sub needs to be, in relation to your listening position
@@1337murk And that's a benefit to be using a sub vs bigger speakers. :)
I think if you want to have low end at lower volumes then sub is only way.
Holy Jesus !!
I "nudge" my sub for a "little" fill. No THUMP
You forgot to mention that a smaller room may benefit More from a sub because u will have the flexibility of positioning it in different places. So room modes will be removed to other places than your sweetspot. Having a sub is like focussing on your phatom center and stereo image while making a compromise on the position where the low frequencies are coming from.
That’s not accurate. Your room modes do not move unless you can move the walls or ceiling. The sub is going to exacerbate your room modes no matter where you place it.
Which sub size would you recommend for Adam A7x?
Thank you
A7x are the new A7 which were the new P11A as mentioned in the video, so I would say at least a 10" or 12" to get the proper extension. I have the P11As and a 10" Polk Audio sub and it's not quite low enough (say around 35Hz confortably) but does the job for now at least and has helped improve my mixes a lot. I usually roll off the 20Hz range in my mixes anyway, but for mastering you might want to leave them in and use a spectrum analyser to be sure they're not going to blow the mastering engineer's wig off. 😁
Think bigger speaker, room permitting
The best way: Upgrade a bigger speaker and get two subs.
Just sub’d.... Get it?? ;-)
i dont get this no woofer thing
from 20 to 80Hz there are 3 octaves that are missing🤔🤔🤔
get 2 woofers with EQs
study the placing stuff and everything (musicaly feel) will make sense from there on🥂
without bass how can one make any sane decission😵💫
its like driving without view, where do i know when to do whatever🤔
BASS is LIFE
You mentioned nothing about impedance coupling of a speaker or the size of listening triangle, or about uneven bass response at listening position caused by the same low frequency tone coming out of two separated sources...
And how having a sub solves many of these issues... and that's why they exist.
I don't think you know that much about the physics of waves and how speakers are designed and why they're chosen...
Yes, I'm professional audio technician.
Definitely big speaker
I’ve recorded and mixed numerous albums in my “rigged” home studio where I did literally everything WRONG, and I still had happy customers. Why? Because I’m adaptable. And awesome.
Get a subwoofer unless it's a 3 way speaker.
CAN YOU PLS PLS SHOW US HOW TO SET A SUB UP THE RIGHT WAY I HAVE AN KRK 10 INCH SUB PAIRED WITH KRK 7S WHICH IS A 6.5 INCH CONE BUT THERES NO REAL USE FULL VIDEOS OUT THERE SHOWING HOW TO SET UP SUBS
No sub !!! Bigger speakers !!! 8-10 inches bass !!! 3 way system !!! Period !!!
now show us the waterfall of your room, the freq is only one part of the story.
very true. I’m not discrediting him on anything, in fact I learned a few things from this but wouldn’t “bigger subs” mean larger cone mass to be in control of?…a 12” sub could not stop itself 100% in real time and be responsive enough to hit the next bass note in a same manner… thus making muddy distortions (I guess you could call it) , contributing to longer waterfall..
No disrespect, but you use too-many words in your presentation! The subject is not that, you know, super-technical :-)
Un-subbed