What Is The Most Efficient Pedalling Style? We Test Flat Vs. Clipless Pedals | GCN Does Science
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- Should you pedal in circles or just push down on the pedals? We put it to the test.
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Clipless pedals are used by every professional road cyclist, yet, according to some, these pedals just aren't as efficient as flat pedals.
Apparently, you shouldn't pull up or the pedals or pedal in 'circles', rather you should just push down.
We're not so sure about this so we took self-proclaimed circular pedaler, Simon Richardson, to the treadmill to test his VO2 Max, blood lactate levels and heart rate with a set of clipless pedals and a set of flats.
The findings? You'll have to watch and find out.
To see the original video that caused such a stir, click here: gcn.eu/1DD77iL
Thanks to the University of Bath! Find out more here: www.bath.ac.uk/
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With my first full on road bike I went clipless, expecting quicker times on my 32 km each way commute. Tried a few different types; SPD's hurt my gimpy knees with not enough float & Speedplay's gave me wicked hotfoot. There was no noticeable difference in my commute times, so I went back to platforms with Power Grips and all day comfort returned with no down side. The best thing is, if I have to get off the bike to pick up something at a store, I don't slip, slide and clatter about like an arthritic flamingo. Please, no outraged responses needed here, I'm just saying that for me, clipless was a dead loss. Your results may vary.
Arthritic flamingo 🤣.. good one
I been riding SPD's for 3 years, I thought they help me a lot in many ways, but this last year I been having this pain in my left foot kind of like you said a hotfoot I wonder now if it's the pedals. Will try my flats again for a while and will see what happens.
@@javierlongoria274 Please give an update on your thoughts after switching back to flats.
Davin... The pain and the discomfort went away within a couple of weeks. It was a sharp shooting pain that I had. Now when I walk or run for over 40 min it kind of hurts still, but at least I know what caused the damage.
@@ravisingh-ow1bs Arthritic flamingo, that would be me, hahahhaah.....
So does this mean i don't have to fall over at stoplights anymore?
yes. also eliminate the risk of getting run over by a car if you accidentally loose your balance on the road. and that can happen so quickly. i was centimeters away from dying. i feel sick thinking how stupid it was.
With flats you can still slip off the pedal though
for me slipping off the pedal is totally fine and it never happens cuz i use the right shoes
And you will be more efficient win win.
Even children can keep their feet on pedals so stop insulting yourself with that comment
I was thinking of going clipless but this vid has changed my mind i dont mind flat pedals on my carbon road bike
@Patrick Hyde Well, I'm assuming he's dead since he hasn't responded... Maybe he died on a descent, his *carbon* aero wheels probably snapped in half...
Do straped pedals
We wanted to find out the most efficient way of pedalling so we sent Simon and Dan up to the treadmill at the University of Bath to find out.
We want to know your thoughts on this, so join in the conversation! Like, share and comment below
Great news for people getting into cycling; you don't NEED clip-less pedals to join the fun!
I just realized the GCN logo is a bike chain. AMAZING!
He went on Flat after he was on Clipless. Wouldn't that make a difference in numbers?
Ah he was completely rested - k
Looks like its basically no difference, at least in a lab setting. One variable not accounted for is the riders unfamiliarity with riding flats, but I still don't think it would make much difference.
The post script opinion of the rider and his performance/technique should be edited from the video, as it has nothing to do with the data collected in the test.
All said and done, I find it a pretty fair test - nicely done.
This was a good video, as well as an example of cognitive dissonance AND excessive focus. What do I mean?
The experiment was good, because it showed something that many riders who use clipless and platform pedals know: there is no efficiency gain from clipless pedals. This is where the rider's cognitive dissonance arose; because the lab's numbers didn't agree with his perception, he wanted to disregard the numbers! Finally, the excessive focus was in thinking that the the major if not the only benefit of clipless pedals is that they were more efficient. In actuality, clipless pedals provide several benefits over platforms; they prevent your feet from slipping off of the pedals during hard riding, like climbing or sprinting or bumpy downhill mountain biking, they let you control the bike more in certain situations like hopping over obstacles, e.g., railroad tracks, etc.
I use clipless pedals on my high racer recumbent, because leg suck (having a leg slip off of the pedal at speed, drop down to the ground and then get dragged behind the rider resulting in serious injury) is a risk they can reduce or prevent. I used them when racing in criteriums so I wouldn't have to worry about slipping off the pedal when sprinting at speed and causing a tremendous crash. I've used them during time trials and triathlon bike legs, and for centuries and double centuries. There's a place for clipless pedals in the bicycling world.
Today, all of my upright bikes have platforms on them. I commute and ride recreationally, and there is no efficiency difference, and it's far easier for me to get a foot down if I have to. For recreational riders, I'd suggest sticking with platforms.
I pretty much agree, After trying clipless for a year I went back to platforms. My feet aren't as secure but that doesn't affect my riding all that much.
I ride for fun and to get exercise, so speed and efficiency aren't that important to me. If I need to get somewhere fast I prefer to jump in a car.
excellent analysis. what I take from it is the efficiency through speed etc is minimal. however, you may be more energy efficient while riding the bike. as simon said, he was more jerky on flats etc clipped in keeps you in a potentially more controlled state for maybe more efficient energy usage of the body, but no significance in speed. but marginal gains you may be able to cycle a little further, for longer etc i ride flats, none of the cycling gear other than a helmet, a trek hybrid and often match of outdo roadbikes with clipless and lyca
@@dannybarker2439 Yes 👊🏻
@@dannybarker2439 He was probably more jerky because he was trying to pull the pedals through and up as he pedaled. Not being used to them and not feeling comfortable would explain the jerkiness.
For touring, like the length of Japan, 2000 miles in 40 days flats are the only way to go.
The difference between pedaling with clipless pedals and flat pedals is the ability to add force to the pedal stroke aside from on the downstroke as stated at the beginning of the video. This can allow the use of a wider range of leg muscles reducing muscle fatigue for a given power output. HOWEVER, the downstroke is the most efficient means of transferring muscle power to the bike's drivetrain. Therefore, riding with flat pedals where you are only applying force on the downstroke will be more efficient in terms of energy consumption. With practice, the difference between the flat pedals and the clipless pedals would be even greater as he learns how to perform a smooth stroke when riding with the flat pedals. He probably feels less exertion using the clipless pedals due to the reduced muscle fatigue by spreading the effort over a larger group of muscles and due to his familiarity with that pedaling style.If you are only concerned with muscle fatigue, then clipless pedals will win out. If you are more concerned with energy consumption then flat pedals are the most efficient.
What if you're not pulling when using clipless but mimicking a quad dominant style of pedaling? Sure you would get the best of both world's being able to tap into the more powerful stroke when needed.
good point well made.
I'm done with clipless, I'm going back to flats, no because of your video, but because I find it very uncomfortable to keep the same position in long rides.
That’s exactly why I went back to flat pedals
OMG, this old video just came up in my feed. I can't believe how young they both look. Current presentation is a lot slicker nowadays!
I am by no means a professional biker, I've only just started about a year ago and I'm still riding flat pedals on my schwinn roadbike. I have noticed however that I find myself conserving energy on long rides by switching the position of my foot on the pedal. By riding with the pedal in the center of my foot rather than on the ball I feel like I get more glut activation and less calve, which gives the muscles a chance to rest. So in theory I get more longevity by switching, and you can't switch your foot position with clipless shoes.
No but you can stand up on the peddles very securely and comfortably! And you can vary the way you peddle ALOT using different sets of muscles if you put your mind to it to reduce fatigue
dan m
wat no, hes right
Exactly Kevin and the main reason is if I need to hop off of the bike and let go for any reason at an instant to keep from going over a ledge or crashing into something. I've seen many of guys fall over and bust their ass from not just being able to unclip in time to put their foot down. I'm not a racer, therefore I will never wear clips. I do this for enjoyment. Plus I climb perfectly without them. To me there's no difference using and not using clip less. Same motion. If my legs get tired then I'll simply get off and walk my bike up the hill.
Charles Buford I want them for no reason, they seem pretty.
Cool Blue Seems fair enough to me. I'm all for looks myself. So if that's what you like then Coooool Blue. Ha! See what I done there? Lol
The best answer is to ride what is comfortable for YOU!
So many variables here... confusion over power output vs efficiency for starters. Not to mention training effects - for example, if Simon had only ever used flat pedals,would he be much more efficient and powerful than if he rode clipless for the first time?
Part of the argument against "pulling up" is that the motion is dramatically less efficient (oxygen/energy cost per unit of force generated) compared to the "cost" of the other foot pushing down against the "dead weight" of the other foot going up.
Meaning, yes you can exert more total force with cleats, but the efficiency is very low. Which makes sense as a racer, the only time I truly pull hard upward is at sprint intensity,a very costly effort. The rest of the time, at best, I'm slightly "un weighting" the upward foot. This is confirmed by me personal experience with flat pedals where I never have a problem with the "upward" foot coming off the pedal.
Ever run a steep hill with maybe a to large gear and your weight cant push the bike forward even tho you have the power? Comes handy in those situations to have soem pulling force to attack that climb.
@@Filming_Scene Hum. Your redaction sucks
"confusion over power output vs efficiency for starters"
Nope. Power output is held equal (same force to propel the bike at the same speed in the same conditions, same losses in the mechanical system), so calories burned (measured by CO2 volume exhaled) correlates to efficiency.
You're on point in the rest of the comment.
i am biking since 27 years and i am always just focusing on pushing down as hard as i can (or as i need to) and then let the foot come up naturally. i rly think this "resting" time is pretty good for keeping the blood flowing instead of that constant tension that you can have with special shoes.
i use flat because i commute not race
Thanks to the ***** for their help on this one!
Not the most scientific test I've seen. Didn't answer the question about how the roller gives the feeling of riding an incline just spoke about why they use a roller.
Ian Howard agree - the "scientist" didn't really answer the question
Ian Howard The treadmill was at a 6% gradient. Imagine the the rider didnt pedal while the treadmill was going - in this case the bicycle would roll backwards and off of the treadmill because the bicycle is on an angle and gravity pulls it down.
it is like the aeroplane on a treadmill experiment.
DxsPro that's kind of what I imagined was the case, thanks. Just wanted to point out that the scientist didn't manage to say that.
Ian Howard yeah, i was missing information about the cyclist having to compensate for the gravity since it is only partially compensated for by the INCLINED plane of the treadmill.
not that i did not know that, i just dont like when "scientist" appear in such videos
The treadmill vs climb is a simple concept - as a rider on the road you might climb say 500m, but as a rider on an inclined treadmill you stop yourself from falling 500m.
Yeah same as walking up an escalator which is going down ways
2 faces of the same coin.
I'm happy to see this analysis and comparison. I ride three bikes regularly -- a 24 speed cruiser with contemporary flat pedals, an urbanized MTB with old-school toe cages, and a vintage road bike with similar pedals. Furthermore, I am a higher cadence rider and on my cruiser I utilize a stroke wherein I apply force on about two-thirds of the stroke. My toes are angled slightly downward to pull back on the pedal until just before my foot starts to lift off the pedal. My perception is that I'm actually using less energy to maintain speed as measured by my breath rate and depth. I would like to add an additional power source I've discovered, and that is adding more muscle to the upstroke by pushing forward with my heels, although I must qualify the statement with the disclosure that the cruiser is an upright seating, forward pedal bicycle. I am a casual rider, but I try to use the full stroke on the MTB and the road bike, whenever I am able because I find it faster and less demanding versus a downstroke-only style.
I love both pedal styles. MTB = Flat - I like to "dab" my foot as I ride and no matter what people say about SPDs etc, you can bin your bike far quicker when things go wrong if you are on flats. ROAD = clipped. What I like most is that on long climbs I can change my pedal stroke and rest certain muscle groups - ie switch from pedaling "up and down" to pedaling "forwards"..
I think this data will be of great interest to triathletes, especially when it comes to transition. If you can get a running shoe that works with flat pedals many vital seconds could be gained by not having to change into different shoes.
Running shoes are soft or softer, shoes for riding harder or else you waste energy by compressing the sole.
@@EditioCastigata shimanoe gr7s nuff said
@@zeroa69 Well, good sir, I'm indeed in the market for MTB shoes. No idea which are in the video, but from what I gather they usually don't have the stiff carbon fiber soles I know from road racing (clippy) shoes. The GR7 have a stiffness of 3/12, which confirms my comment. They look good, though!
@@EditioCastigata I mean, that's another bit of conventional wisdom that could turn out to be false, if the energy transfer *of the leg* is biologically more efficient with a flexed foot arch (and it might be - we walk and run flexing and extending our feet and toes, and that's the behavior that probably prompted greater leg extensor efficiency than flexor efficiency, too). Pulling up is more mechanically efficient but less biologically efficient; stiff soles are definitely more mechanically efficient, but ARE they more biologically efficient? That's an open question as far as I know.
This reminds me of the way that thinner tires rolling faster turned out to be a complete myth because it was looking at some particular features (loss of energy to material deformation, rotational inertia) and failing to consider the whole system (loss of energy to vertical deflection of the center of mass, loss of energy to slippage between the tire and road surface).
This is why I just laugh when bike shops ask me why I don't want clipless pedals. I'm a 62 year old woman who averages 3000 mile/year transportation cycing) but speed and efficiency are not my highest priorities. .
And I've never fallen over trying to put my foot down while using flat pedals, LOL.
More power to those who want clipless. But they're not the only way to go. Platform pedals are FINE for many of us.
By this test there is no efficiency difference.
First, love this test, and the conversations it started around our cycling studio. We think this: the lower heart rate and higher oxygen consumption might reflect the recruitment of more muscles to generate the same power. Our assumptions:
1. the same amount of fuel (oxygen rich blood) goes to the legs with every heartbeat.
2. the unclipped condition uses fewer muscles than the clipped in condition.
Therefore the clipped condition uses fuel more efficiently (is able to burn more of it) with each heart beat and pedal stroke because oxygenated blood is being moved through those muscles whether it is being utilized or not.
Thus we see a lower heart rate and a higher oxygen consumption. We postulate that we would see lower leg fatigue over time.
The one problem is cardiac drift: his heart rate might have been higher simply because he was warmer.
Our collective cycling experience doubts his conclusion that he really does not add power at the fringes of the pedal stroke. More likely Si, as a pro, quickly compensated for the lack of cleats and quickly adapted his pedalling to suit being unclipped. Surely he has been on a watt bike at some point and knows the answer to this already?
the fact that he wasnt wearing proper flat mtb shoes is a huge factor as well
The main reason I switched to clipless pedals was the flat pedals were causing all sorts of leg muscle pain including excruciating itb syndrome. The reason I suppose is that with flats my leg muscles were also compensating to keep my feet in the most optimal position on the pedals, including keeping them from slipping off and sideways, and this forced control in addition to the pedal stroke was causing muscle fatigue. With clipless pedals the leg muscles focus on just the circular pedal stroke and it's made a huge difference to the muscle fatigue and itb problem.
I've yet to master the up stroke but when I consciously get it right I find I'm able to get a faster cadence without burning up. Definitely feels more efficient.
Agreed. On flats I spend energy (at least mental energy) focusing on keeping feet on pedals.
That's why I switched as well.
You guys possibly (probably) are not using good flat pedals and good flat pedal-specific shoes. You can't go from high-dollar clip-in pedals and shoes to any old BMX flat pedal plus skateboard or running shoes and expect high performance. Spend the same amount of money as you did on your clip-in setup ($100+ on flat-specific shoes, >$80 on good MTB flat pedals) and try it out. You won't be using any energy to keep your feet on the pedals.
Your problem there is probably a poor bike fit. Millions of Chinese people ride bikes with flat pedals. Kids ride all over the place without aches and pains on flat pedals! Riding flat pedals will make you learn proper form and eventually force you to use your Glutes to cycle, which are the strongest muscle in a cycling context, not the quads.
6:12 Jonathan trying to figure out why you called the pedals with clips "clipless".
Because clipless (aka spds) replaced the older style pedals with actual leather straps and clips, commonly known as cages.
LOL nice catch man, rewatched his confused reaction like 5 times after reading your comment
I recall an article years ago that was comparing the pedalling styles of one Lance Armstrong and one Jan Ullrich. This article came out after many of us were exposed to the 'high cadence' phenomenon. Lance having used it, and Jan using a higher geared grinding approach.
Ignoring the obvious stigmas associated with both names, it basically concluded that due to their differences in physiology at the time, each rider's particular style was better suited to each, but would not particularly benefit the other. Ullrich benefitted from a style where he used gravity to 'drop' his heavier legs leg through the pedal stroke, forcing the cranks around the gear cycle. Lance, on the other hand, in his post-96 physique, was better suited to spinning his legs.
I would love to see testing done where an ekg is hooked up to the quads so we can see where the muscles are firing in a pedal stroke, and then add in all of the other data to make a determination. I expect a result that we all secretly know to be true but continue to ignore that different body types yield different results. Think Kittel vs Froome vs Quintana.
I think the extra oxygen consumption makes sense since with clipless you're recruiting more muscles which would induce greater oxygen consumption for said muscles. Using more of the muscles in the legs with clipless pedals instead of the few with flat should allow for the ability to go farther in the long run. You guys should test that out since not many races are 10 minutes at a steady pace.
7:20-The point made, and I might say, which I personally experienced as well; clipless are more efficient, but are also logically more energy-consuming. So, if you have great physical endurance, and are a racer-rider, clipless make a difference, if you are an amateur who enjoys long rides with sprints, relaxing moments and an unlimited choice of footwear, flats are better. How's that, um?
Good point. There are so many people here trying to defend their clipless pedals with "facts" that have been proven wrong.
@@obi-wankenobi9871 True. But not so true the argument about "...unlimited choice of footwear...", because if you really want good grip between your shoes and your pedals you need to adquire special flat pedal shoes that have a stickier sole, and there arent that many brands that have models that give you that grippy feeling, no more than 10 Id say. FiveTen, Specialized´s 2F0, Giro, Shimano, Northwave and maybe Pearl Izumi. That´s it.
More MECHANICALLY efficient (and possibly able to provide more instantaneous power); they're not more biologically/biomechanically efficient, whatever your level of training and fitness.
They may still be better for racing (and perhaps other applications, but almost certainly not for transit in stop-and-go traffic) due to other factors. For example, racers generally try to minimize weight, and removing gearing options with a focus on retaining high gearing ratios for the low grades that characterize most race courses is a common way to do so; this leaves them without gearing to handle steep grades (or quick acceleration in other contexts, like slowing for sharp turns and then speeding up again) in the most efficient riding position (seated), so they often need to stand and pedal, which is inherently much less EFFICIENT but can provide more instantaneous power (and perhaps even more with clip-in pedals/shoes).
As a side note, when something provides equal energy output (the riding speed given set resistance, in this case) but requires greater energy input, it is by definition less efficient. It's impossible to be "more efficient, but are also logically more energy-consuming" when the energy output is the same, as it was here.
who's the sound editor here, i try to watch these videos early in the morning while people are sleeping before my rides and always end up turning it down when the video first starts with the out of nowhere techno music then turning it back up for the commentary
D. Alex Kablack your mom is the sound editor
The clipless pedals allow you to disperse the effort between different muscles groups. So when your quads are tired from pushing down you can switch to pulling up on the pedals which engages your hamstrings. If they could test the fatigue in one particular muscle (quads) over a longer period of time I think they would notice a larger advantage of the clipless pedals.
I live in Kentucky so climbing is a part of every ride. I use platform pedals in order to tap into the reserve power that comes as a result of being able to reposition my foot on the pedals. If the ball of my foot is over the pedal axis and I get tired I get more power (because I'm using the muscles differently) when I center my arch over the pedal axis.
This is not so much about whole body energy consumption and more about long term endurance of the primary muscle set. By using only one set of the largest and strongest muscles in your legs (downward stroke only) this will be the most efficient method getting the energy to the ground as it uses the muscles best suited for this task. However, by doing this you also have these muscles exerting more force to maintain a given power level. When you use other muscles in the pedal stroke to create the foot scraping action and unweighting the pedals (not pulling up, but just lifting your leg to make the pedal 'light' and not forcing the other leg to push up the dead weight of the opposite leg) you aren't quite as efficient as the muscles you're now recruiting are smaller and not designed to exert high levels of force. Think glutes vs your hip flexors. However, as a benefit you can reduce your downward stroke power by 10% (arbitrary number) to maintain a given power level thus giving your primary power stroke to remain fresher for longer as you're asking less of it. As cycling is a long distance endurance sport being able to split up the work between as many muscle groups as possible is in the cyclist's best interest assuming the cyclist's cardio can handle the slightly extra cardio load by using less efficient muscle groups.
Exacly my thoughts, muscle fatigue pays a more important role in many races in cycling, unless you are racing 1km sprints.
Yeah, for racing, the advantages of clip-ins likely outweigh the disadvantages. On the other hand, only a tiny minority of the total cycling done is racing (or training for it), so the general trope that clip-ins are "more efficient" or categorically "better" is false in most cases. People for whom cycling is primarily or only a sport seem to forget that, for most people, it's primarily a form of transit. Sadly, the cycling-as-sport mentality is dominant in media and market share, despite it's relatively small numbers of practitioners versus transit cycling, because that's where the most money is.
Was his saddle height changed between tests? There's a big difference between the stack heights of the two systems. Also, if you can't bunny-hop without clip-in pedals, you can't bunny-hop.
no man, it's just that BMX has been doing it wrong this whole time. ;-)
I mean, you're wrong. I don't attach my feet to the pedals, and I can still bunnyhop.
i don`t use clipless pedal because "i`ll be faster" . i do it because my foot is locked in the pedal, that being said, i can go downhill (mtb) without fear of slipping from pedals. gives me control, and control gives you leverage.
Just seen this what a stupid test, I'm not surprised his shoes felt like they were coming off the flat pedals, looked they they had taken a pair of SPD pedals and taken the cleats out, they weren't proper flat pedal shoes !!!!!
Tip: You CAN bunny hop having flat pedals. Been doing it for years. ;-)
I had flat pedals on my BMX bikes. This was in the early to mid-80s, I bunny hopped onto curbs all the time. I used to be able to bunny hop a metal trash can lying on its side or like 4 people laying side by side on the street. That was many years ago, bunny hopping a road bike is a lot different, guess I just need to practice it. I can do it on my hybrid, but it's got fatter tires etc
Skate boarders do it.
lol a million bmxers and mountain bikers do it every day - roadies are so r tar ded
I'd just like to point out that the rider was using a pretty crappy flat pedal and shoe set up. If he would have had a decent pair of flats with a thinner profile and some 5.10 shoes he probably would have done even better.
I noticed this too. He even commented that he felt like he was always on the verge of slipping off the pedals, which of course makes sense wearing a clipless shoe on a flat pedal. Agreed....should be redone wearing 5-10s!
Agree! I own Impcts and Freeriders and the have awesome grip. One guy riding with me was a all clipless fan and when he tried 5/10s he gave up riding clipless.
JudaasPL
The issue is when switching to a pair of flats with standard walking sole, you lose the rigidity of cycling shoes, and have another variable between the two to lose power, being that the test was not between flats and clips, simply two riding styles with flats facilitating the riding style of not pulling up.
***** I've heard that bmx riders actually exert the most power in hard acceleration out of all cyclists. Both bmx/freeride and dh riders generally prefer flat pedals. Riding in clip-less might feel more smooth, but it's not natural. Pulling up on your pedals with any sort of resistance is not recommended by any proper orthopedic doctor. Your legs are made to exert sustained power while pushing, not pulling.
As for clip-less being safer, I have to say that I've only used flats, and in all of my bike crashes I've fallen off my bike (20 years of riding, 10/15+ serious crashes). All of my harder injuries have been some deep bruising and road rash, nothing as serious as you'd see in riders that fall clipped in.
nowhitespace Personally I think this whole 'pulling up on the pedals' business is misleading - it's not a question of exerting resistance, but rather of pedalling in such a way that your (mental) focus is on the top half of the pedal stroke. It's a part of pedalling with a higher cadence.
The results seem consistent with what we learned about Simon's power application in another video - on climbs he applies power only through 180 degrees.
It would be interesting to redo this test, but with Simon going on a flat ride where he applies power through a higher range.
It may turn out that clipless pedals are more efficient when your natural application goes beyond 180 degrees (or with the crank straight down), meaning for most people, climbing and sprinting are two areas we'd see clipless pedals out perform flat pedals.
On a side note, while you didn't mention it, I liked that you used fairly similar shoes - the stiffness of the shoes makes a huge difference I imagine, especially with flat pedals.
+Edgy Guy The shoes might be a big one. How many people pedal on flats with just sneakers? A good cycling shoe firmly attached to the pedal can distribute the force across the entire foot, whereas a running shoe and flats will put it all on the balls of your feet (assuming you're still paying attention to the placement of your feet that is).
And some pairing of flats and shoes can blur the lines of foot retention.
5:15 for the results. Everyone talks about "pull up" for the pull part of the stroke but, that applies to a more time-trial/modern, style with toes down as Simon Richardson is using. But if you push forwards with your heels down (as if you are sitting on a tall recumbent while reaching for your toes) and then straighten your foot at the end of the forward push and pull back with your glutes, from about 4:30 pm on the clock (imagine you are on a recumbent or in a pedal go-kart) you are pulling *back* not pulling *up*, and it is this pulling back that requires clipless (i.e. clip in) pedals. There is no need to use this "heel drop" "French" "old style" "bunched up at the back" technique, as demonstrated by the pros today who rarely use it, but it has advantages in long rides since it shares the load between muscles, and it recruits your butt muscles which is useful to old people (like me at 57) to prevent knee pain and hip instability, and it produces a nice sensation where instead of taking it in turns ones legs help each other, and you can sort of stomp (using your quads) while in a tuck (instead of having to stand to stomp), and you get lower without putting your saddle higher because your legs are pushing forwards more (or at least at an angle forwards). You can also give up on the push part of the stroke sooner safe in the knowledge that you will pull and use a whip technique which means you are serializing your muscles so that instead of taking it in turns, quads then quads, your glutes pull adds speed to your quad push. That being said, Simon Richardson and the Pro peloton today prove that this old style is not necessary. I think that the modern Pro peloton is very now more than ever much a group ride where teams form lines where they take it in turns to sprint and this may favour the quad quad quat push push push. If you are riding on your own however, as I always am, it make help to return to the push forwards pull back style.
Love these GCN vintage videos! The boss and the apprentice :)
The pull-up technique strikes me as un-natural. Our legs are mechanically designed for walking and running, and in these things we exert enough power to lift our legs for the next stroke, but no more. The power comes from down strokes, and that's where muscles are efficient. So, unless you learned circular technique from a young and tender age, I think push-down rather than push-pull should be expected to be more efficient.
Just what i told a few people in the comments already.
i personally think what happens is people think they're pulling up when they actually are not. just like in this video, he wasn't pulling up and was surprised by it, but with his cognitive dissonance, said "oh, but I totally do when I ride harder!" which he doesn't know that either. he thought he knew he did it without riding hard...
grippy flat pedals and the correct shoes allow for the natural pedaling efficiency. which is down and pull back. i can guarantee nobody pulls up, especially when standing and pedaling. your body mechanics just don't allow that to happen to the extent some think it does.
are you pulling up in your pedal stroke? possibly, but to such a negligible extent that it literally doesn't matter. as you can see in this test.
I ride both flat and clipless. they certainly both feel different and each have benefits, but "spinning circles" isn't as prominent or possible as advocates say it is.
@@intargc I once had to get new cleats after I came unclipped a couple of times smashing steep uphills on a fixed gear bike. I've also done some MTB racing on a single-speed and found that standing and pulling up is an essential skill and at first makes your legs hurt really bad. But riding steady pace with confortable cadence, there is propably no pulling upwards.
I think the main reason to use clipless is for keeping your cadence at the same rate. With flats pedals sometimes you skip a pedal stroke, for example in a garden of rocks, so that makes to slow down your cadence.
The force you apply on the pedal when you pull is barely significant.
Keep on with the good work!!!!
Not sure if clipless is more efficient, but I definitely feel like I have more control of the bike. This is particularly true on rough surfaces at high speeds where my feet vibrate off flat pedals. Ever since I went clipless my shins do not get bloody from a foot slippage causing the crank to spin around and the pedal whack me in the shin. Also, unexpected chain breaks don't cause a crash with clipless. Just my experiences. Yours may vary.
2145 likes. 60 dislikes. Wonder how many clipless pedal manufacturers or retailers watched this? 60?
On a more serious note - how do skateboarders jump and take the board up with them, without being clipped on? always wondered that...
6 years late for a response but it's the grip tape, and the shoes. When you pop the back of the board towards the ground, the front of the board elevates up, and you drag your toe upwards essentially gripping the board helping it push up. This creates the inertia to project upwards
why the heck were you pedaling on flat pedals with those shoes?? wear flat shoes and you would have been much more efficient.
+Brandon Brand I compromised with a unique solution. I use flat pedals and ride using turf-soled footballing (soccer) shoes. The knobby tread grips into the "frame" of the pedal allowing me to pull back to a better degree than flat sole shoes would while still allowing me to use flat pedals - because the state I live in actually requires by law reflectors on the pedals which clipless do not have.
so there you go :)
+Shannon Strobel you can definitely get clipless pedals with reflectors
+Luke Riddoch Oh? Hadn't noticed. All the riders I've ever seen all have reflector-less pedals. Thanks
more money to spend on my bike :)
Hate to say, cuz these guys are fun, this was a worthless non real world test. (and if you can't bunny hop on flats you need to go back to BMX 101)
@@shannonstrobel6727 Thats very wrong. Shimano spds have several models with reflectors on one side
Its not true that you can only generate power on the down stroke with flat pedals. Good mtb pedals with pins and proper shoes allow you to pull through the bottom and push through the top.
Having not long ago made the switch from flats to clipless the main benefit to clipless is quality of life - no constant repositioning of the feet after every stop or slip. Secondary minor benefit - pulling on the upstroke of steeper climbs for short bursts of (slightly higher) maximum power.
The minor con - starting and stopping become slightly more complicated. That's my rocket science take...I wouldn't go back to the feet position faff days.
The oxygen consumption was different because with the flat pedals he was not activating the same amount of muscles as if he were clipped in. When he is clipped in, he is using more muscles thus needs more oxygen to sustain their use. The flat pedals will lead to muscle fatigue more quickly in a few muscles vs muscle fatigue in more muscles spreading out the work over the entire stroke.
You only really pull up when sprinting. The big advantage of clips is the smoother stroke.
UA-cam User What? How is the stroke any smoother because of clipless pedals? If you're not sprinting, according to you you are not pulling up on the pedal, i.e. only pushing down. On a flat pedal you only push down. The difference?
no in the long run you get more fatigued on a clipless, with flats (and proper flat shoes) you can change up your foot position a changing up entire muscle groups giving others a chance to take a break and in some situations are the better set to use.
You can't bunny hop without clipless pedals ? Really ? Man work on that, buy a bmx.
Indeed
bmx suck lmao
1. Put the bike in an inclined position.
2. Use your brakes to avoid sliding off (make sure not to push too hard, only enough to stop from moving backwards).
3. Maintain the same pressure on the brakes and level the treadmill.
4. Start the treadmill and ride, continuing to apply the same pressure to the brakes.
5. A bit more difficult than riding without braking, yes? ;)
(or just calculate the force, needed to maintain force equilibrium, from the weight force vector in the direction of the incline)
I think the greatest advantage to clipless pedals is the improved ability to keep your ass on the saddle. The ability to leverage opposing forces allows more power output than your gravitational downforce totals. With platform pedals you might struggle to not rise out of the seat on a powerful pedal stroke. On a the same powerful downward pedal stroke while riding clipless, adding in the ability to apply an upward pulling force at the same time, can cancel out the equal and opposite reaction that pushing down hard and fast on the pedal can cause.
In the exact same conditions (as shown in this video) the clipless pedals will take more energy and oxygen as you are pushing on the pedals AND pulling at the same time. In these conditions they may not be as efficient but they would be in many different situations such as accelerating, sprinting, etc. In the long run, clipless pedals are certainly more efficient.
..in my opinion lol
MichaelsWorldTV
no they are not more efficient, efficiency is a ratio and it's equal to output/input, this tests and other tests state that you can get the same horizontal movement with flat pedals applying less power, that means flats are more efficient, the thing is that with clipless you are able to apply power when a flat pedal equiped bike won't let you, I guess that's why clipless are so popular in racing. But efficiency is not inclreased, the period of time you're able to supply power to the process is increased indeed, but that period of time seems not as efficient as the one we were already making use of. Anyway I'm sure a propperly trained athlete will be able to use any kind of pedal and get the same numbers on both test, how? just focusing in not loosing energy while lifting his legs.
MichaelsWorldTV With 0 evidence to back up your opinion. Thanks though.
Cory G The evidence is my own experience and comparisons of my own data between clipless and flats.
I am going with flat pedals right now. No more clip less pedals for me.
One thing about pulling through after the bottom of the stroke is that it helps set up the opposite pedal for pushing. I find it slightly more efficient to pull through slightly.
The difference in VO2 could be because he was using more muscles with the clipless given the same lactate result for both.
You should discuss the discrepancy between the VO2max and the heart rate. Clipless pedals engage more muscles so one would expect the O2 consumption to go up which is what you saw. Now the heart rate is lower with clipless pedals because it compensates for the volume of oxygen and that's where the perceived exertion comes from (seems easier because pedaling was more efficient). What do you think Simon and Dan?
The guy simply didnt answer your question "how does this simulate a gradient?". I dont understand why you used a treadmill anyway? A wattbike would have been far easier to get useful data from, they had one in the lab!
The data wouldn't have been representative of actually riding though, this treadmill simulates climbing perfectly. The only thing missing is wind resistance.
How does it simulate the climb though? All it could do would be give a resistance, which would throw you off the front of a roller. Unless the bike was tethered, but it's not.
matthew vallins The exact physics of it are a bit complicated for my tiny bike-rider brain, but essentially, trying to stay in the same place on an inclined treadmill is the same as trying to climb an inclined road. Increase the angle of the treadmill, increase the power needed to stay on it.
Sadly not ;-)
matthew vallins Sadly not what?
People should rather be thinking of how someone who is not used to flats and constantly had to compensate to not lifting on the upstroke could be more efficient on flats.
Another and more important issue is cleat placement. One of the advantages of flats is that you automatically place your feet where your stroke is most efficient = mid-foot and not over the ball of the feets like you normally do on clipless. Unfortunately they gave him some clumsy shoes with an adapter, that only allowed him to use the ball of his feet unlike you normally would on flats.
So despite the fact that all the advantages to using flats was removed from the equation, flats was more efficient... Think about that!
The results make sense. In the clipless he was using muscles to both push down and pull up. The use of more muscles would constitute the use of more oxygen. But the test doesn't really prove efficiency in terms of power to the wheels. Any rider can exert much more force on the down stroke than they could on the upstroke. So the question till remains, is that upward force really contributing an appreciable amount of power to the wheel than simply using a down stroke.
Personally I use flats and when I need the extra power for climbing, my stroke starts right after the pedal passes the high point. I'm pushing forward and continuing into a downward motion till the pedal reaches low point. This often requires shifting back on the saddle a good bit but I gain a tremendous power advantage. I find that I can climb in a higher gear than when seated normally and pushing down only.
great video guys, similarly i am still keeping my clipless. Although i never bought them for efficiency as much as control (in terms of how much power i can give to the pedals, and generally staying in the correct position)
The main part is.... you think you pull up with cleats, but you dont.... on a stready ride... so you dont need clips.... BUT.... Racesituation is not a steady ride ;) so he is absolutly right.
The Data,,, Sry but i think 5 bpm and 2 oxygen are not that much of a difference....
No, but the fact that there was essentially no difference disproved the hypothesis. As we said though, needs loads more people to do it to make it a proper test. Interesting though!
If I ride a bike with flat pedals after a long time not doing so, invariably my feet (or at least a foot) come straight off on the back stroke always followed by an exclamation and a wobble!!
Global Cycling Network Maybe I am wrong but based on the data it seems like the slightly lower heart rate might lead to slower deeper breaths resulting in more expulsion gasses. This would seem to be more efficient in regards to longer endurance riding.
The pulling up effect has been disregarded as bs and actually counterproductive for muscular efficiency in scientific papers (sorry don't have a link right now). Midsole pedalling, basically using the legs like pistons, is proving to result in higher power levels as it's effective for a bigger proportion of the pedalling revolution, and it's particularly good for triathletes as it's much easier on the calves, so you're in better shape for the run.
I would say 5 bpm is a big difference when all you have changed is the pedals!
over 10 minutes you have this result, but the circular pedaling wouldn't start to be more efficient until well into a ride when the pushing muscles begin to get taxed from doing all the work. I bet if the test was longer, pedaling on flats would begin to lose efficiency before the clippless pedaling and thereby by an hour or two into a ride the rider would begin to use more oxygen on flats because the muscles ability to recover between strokes would virtually disappear.
I believe this test doesn't address the issue unless the duration of the test is over an hour
clip tires you out quicker because your legs are under constant strain. Stop arguing with result of the scientific test
"Stop arguing with result of the scientific test"
Eh, that's not how science works.
In other words, clipless for climbing, flat and moderately technical trails and flat pedals for going down and more complicated terrain. Thank you very much to Funn One SIde Mamba pedals!!
Higher expired gas with the clipless pedals most likely due to heavy rider bias (ie. he wanted to have a "special" pedal stroke so emphasised it in the first test), which is more inefficient and will result in greater (although still fairly small) oxygen consumption.
Body position (hand position and stack height of the pedals) was completely different as well which will have an integrated effect. But thumbs up for having a go, rightly pointed out that clipless pedals are the way to go regardless.
Would be awesome to see the same test with an Qring within!!!!!
Awesome flat pedals were better .. that's great cause I'm going order some DMR V12 Magnesium FlatPedals for my cannondale caad optimo.. was thinking of clipless but did not really like the idea , but doing research looks like flats are better for me .. cheers guys , I watched gmbn doing downhill and the flat pad also won by 8 seconds on 8 laps ... all the best guys chris & Sam
I've always said it, clipless is b/s: pulling up on the pedal will propel the bike forward? Try riding with flats and mimic the action of pulling up the pedal, you'll find the pedalling action feels smoother and requires less energy but there's no way you are actually pulling the pedal up. Yes, on a bumpy MTB track clipless can help keep your foot in place, but good shoes with good flat pedals will give you plenty of grip.
I ride pretty freely avoiding people and traffic lights as much as possible so for me I put my leg down to either push off or to glide or balance on a turn so I would go with flats just because that is how I would enjoy riding my bike... That's my preference
I always like to lift my foot off the padel after a while, so flat will always for me:-)
would be interesting to see what a power meter that shows where your power is shows, how much power you really put in at different points :)
marcus allison Hi Marcus. The new firmware update to the Garmin Vector pedals allows you to see just this. Stay tuned for a video about it shortly.
thought there was something like that :) fantastic! i look forward to it :)
You know his name? Creepy : S
Can Metan my username used to be my actual name, and they replied to this before i changed it!! not too creepy :P although, i cant deny i'd be pleased if that wasn't the case and they knew it :L
toasty bear Don't worry, Google will be happy to please you : )
I really like the flat pedals and am very comfortable and efficient as I am not really sure if I am pulling up on clipless, so I use flats most of the time. But where I find the clipless useful is on a rainy day as shoes tend to slip off on flats when they are wet, even more worse while getting out of the saddle for that extra effort.
Clipless pedals to me is still more stable. Especially for me I ride road and BMX race bike. In BMX race is crazy cadence and my leg flew off the flat pedals when the cadence gets crazy so, clipless for me. Though flat pedals teaches people the safe way to play around with the bike without that last minute unclipping panic. There is always a pros and cons to both sides of the pedals. But for road clipless is still the best for me though. But good test GCN, you guys are awesome! :D
The question about how the roller gives a feeling of riding an incline was actually never answered. The operator just spoke about why they use a roller.
The plane takes off.
Yes. The idea is if you ride up a 100 meter hill and then a belt brings you down, you still rode up the 100 m hill. Make it a small hill 10 m hill, you ride up, belt brings you down and repeat 10 times, you still rode up a 100 m hill. Make it a 1 m hill 100 times, a 10 cm hill 1000 times,... Keep it up and you end up with a treadmill.
Also, with the flat pedals Simon should have used shoes made for flat pedals or toe clips, with a stiff sole and anti-slip finish. The pedals and shoe combination should have been of comparable weight as well.
He did actually, they were carbon soled Specialized MTB shoes.
Global Cycling Network
If he was struggling to keep the feet in position as much as he says, surely something wasn't quite right.
LXremirP Perhaps. Next time I'll lend him my long-pinned DMR Vaults and 5:10s ;-)
5:10s + lycra? that's seriously wrong.
Global Cycling Network
Those Specialized MTB shoes Si wore for this test are not at ALL adequate for use with flat pedals. The rubber soles molded to the bottom of any MTB clipless shoes (like these) are a very hard rubber with very little grip for hard surfaces. The sole is there just to dig/grip well in dirt when you have to dismount. Even skateboard or running shoes with softer, grippier rubber are not great for riding flat pedals. Just like the fact there are shoes specific for performance with clipless pedals (road or MTB), there are shoes designed specifically for riding flat bicycle pedals, with ultra-sticky rubber soles and perfect amount of stiffness/flex in the sole bed. The 5.10s you mentioned for one, as well as many others that have entered the market recently, including, well....how about these?:
www.pinkbike.com/news/specialized-2fo-flat-shoes-review-2014.html
6:46 off course, that's because he was using the ball of the foot, this is not as stable position as mid foot position, which is great with flat shoes and Catalyst pedals, which are made for this pedalling technique. I won't ride anything else. so on drops your body won't sink as much, you will be more stable and get a better pedal stroke, but of course proper shoes make a big difference, but I see you are using stiff shoes here.
video explaining why they make sense: ua-cam.com/video/ui6p54f8XeM/v-deo.html James does a great job at explaining it, so I recommend every one to watch it, I always wanted a pedal like that, & I always rode with mid foot position, but as I got older my feet were too big for all pedals on the market until I found Catalyst pedals.
if you do a study like you did you got to include these in the next one.
I bought my first set of Shimano SPD's and the difference especially when accelerating hard was massive.
Baloney. Acceleration comes almost all from pushing down on the pedals. There's no way the difference was "massive".
Why are pedals that have clips called "clipless"?
Sound ironic i know but clipping in to the context of cycling means clipping in or strapping into a leather or strap cage that riders use back in the olden days so now in the modern age without the cage or straps we dont clip in to them anymore so we call the new pedals and clip clipless pedals
+Kang Jiyoung yeah but no one uses straps anymore D: dam nostalgia in scycling stronk
+WⓋtf VEGAN Plenty do, I had them on my road bike for ages until I got sick of replacing the straps and having to tighten them each time, I pass a guy on my commute in the morning who does, rarer now yes but still popular
+Gobtik +Vegan Bobster And I use them on my daily rider that I take to the store because it would be a ridiculous pain to have to change shoes just to ride a few miles.
+Minute Man Since shoes with clips are called "clipless," and I don't wear clipless shoes to ride, do I have a "cliplessless" setup, or would my no-clip shoes be just "clip" shoes? I also have a tireless bike. I think this is how Dr. Seuss got started.
don't pretend to be much of a cyclist but many decades ago (before clipless) a friend of mine said that one reason we can cycle for ages is because when one legs working in essence the other one is resting, and therefore recovering. Makes sense to me especially at lower cadence. Just a thought.
Cadence efficiency is an inverted logic man, it may seem that a lower cadence is much better and less tiring but you gotta consider that the lower the cadence, the heavier the gear will be which will result in muscle damage thus you'll get much more tired. You gotta always keep your cadence way up high...you'll suffer and it'll be hard in the beginning but trust me, you'll get used to it easily.
MercedesKawasaki i don't get more tired at a lower cadence. have tried both. People are different, ever heard of natural cadence? i was yorkshire power lifting champion. naturally strong. high cadence for me is like walking on the flat it makes me my legs ache. one size does not fit all. i don't pretend to be a cyclist just someone that rides a bike for pleasure.
The cadence effect depends on the intensity and duration of effort. For endurance, a relatively higher cadence will take you further. A lower cadence will help you build muscle strength, but you'll get high lactic acid levels much earlier. You have to train using both approaches, but for endurance racing it's high cadence all the way.
LXremirP yes i understand what your saying
Yes I generally agree about the higher cadence for endurance efficiency, but as I have trained my muscles (squats/lifting etc etc) I have found that my favoured endurance cadence is lower - still in the 60-80 range, but more like 60 whereas before I was more like 80. I still prefer the higher cadence on higher loads due gradient, but on the flat I've noticed this difference. I was interested in the difference between fast twitch and slow twitch muscles, and then reading into it I discovered that actually there's at least 5 or 6 different metabolic modes for human muscles and it all got very complicated and I knew I wouldn't be able to answer my specific scenario.
Interesting test though I don't know that it met its potential
I am an engineer and huge data freak so I would love to see
- inclusion of clips in the test
- bigger variation in ride types- you mentioned sprints, why no inclusion of them given their importance?
- graphs of pedal stroke position vs time, speed/distance/acceleration vs time for sprints, power output vs time on different strokes etc
This could be a really cool test to just look at the math behind pedaling in general
flats + Chuck Taylor shoes is the best combo I've found.
Im faster with flat pedals, especially on steep climbs.
When you ride where is the contact point between the pedals and your feet.
Grant Petersen was right!!
One of the most basic rules of mechanics : For every force there is a counter force. If you are standing on solid ground weighing 80kgs that means a force of 80 kgs is directed downwards. It also means that the ground pushes back with a force of 80 kgs. If it didnt you would simply sink through the ground. It is this counterforce that you make use of when you use an extended arm (like a crowbar or lever) to pry something for example.
I believe that in cycling you potentially waste alot of energy if you do not have the ability to pull the pedals up, especially when you need to put out alot of power, like when accelerating or going up a hill. With flat pedals, you will at some point start wasting energy lifting your body weight rather than bringing the crankset around. If you are clipped in, however, you get a counterforce from your saddle (assuming you are not standing up) meaning you can use your leg muscles more efficiently.
Try riding a heavy geared track bike uphill witout clips. If its steep enough it will not matter how strong your leg muscles are because at some point, as you lose momentum, you will need to put out more power than your body weight and when that happens you will stand on the pedals without them actually turning.
yup, will be testing this on a 390km bike ride, ive been doing clipless pedals since my last 3 rides, well see them in flats. see ya next week.
+wheillebhertt-jan montalbeu ? result?
The one that sells more pedals?
why are they called clipless when you have to "clip in"?
Aha, good point. Back in the day, when Matt Stephens started racing, riders used toe clips and straps, not flat pedals. Then when clip-in pedals came along, they were considered clip-less as they had no toe clips.
Global Cycling Network poor matt getting ribbed again lol
He deserves it
one thing I have found as a mountanin bike rider is pulling back at the bottom of the stroke on pinch climbs helps keep it smooth so I don't loose traction. They do hold your feet on the pedals on really rough terrain also.
Ok Guys. I’m a total newbie but I believe there may well be a decided affinity to clipless peddles for y’all.
So you know, most of helpful info I have learned came from your GCN vids. Thanks so much for that.
It would be interesting to see a comparison to an experienced flat peddle cyclist on one of your super road bikes. Could it be as much peddling style as tech?
Just a thought.
I have noticed that I tend to pull back and around (not up) when riding an aggressive flat peddle like the Race Face.
I can feel noticeable muscle strain at least 3/4 of the way through my circle indicating al least some use of my calves.
Also, since I am a newbie, I tend to tip a lot. Lol The freedom of flats saves me many falls and scrapes.
I just realized I’m commenting on you road evaluation peddle vid. So many vids, so little time. LOL
Shelly
Can't bunny hop without clip-less?
Umm... Okay...
Yeah, I didn't get that bit either???
proper shoes were not used for the flats , thus not as smooth...do it again please.
Not sure if this has been mentioned before but a possible explanation for the difference in VO2 is that you use more muscles when using clipless because you have a pull component of the movement. It's well replicated that when doing VO2 max tests, sports which require more muscles will give higher VO2 max results (the highest ABSOLUTE, not corrected for bodyweight, values come from elite rowers - obviously a compound exercise). The determinant of VO2 is the ability of muscles to uptake oxygen. The less muscle cells exercising, the less oxygen is taken up from the blood (as shown by the lower VO2 score of the flat compared to clipless pedals). However, whats more important in terms of efficiency is the proportion of VO2 max: since the flat pedals use less muscles, their VO2max is lower and hence the value of 51 is a bigger proportion of the VO2 max compared to the 53 of the clipless.
Obviously there are a lot of generalisations here but a simple method of testing it would be to do a VO2max test comparing the two pedalling styles and whether they differ. If they differ as expected (flat is lower than clipless) then it would be reasonable to say that clipless is more efficient than flat. If not, then back to the drawing board I suppose...
I've never tried clips in 55 years of cycling (well maybe rat-traps a few decades ago!) However on flats I reckon I am putting power into the pedals for at least 70 percent of the pedal rotation. Push forward over the top, down stroke and pull back round the bottom of the stroke. I have use wide flats with studs for the last few years and wear cheap rubber soled, velcro strapped sandals ( I ride predominantly in the tropics so air flow over the feet improves comfort). So really I don't think you can say flats only power on the down stroke and from my point of view flats are much safer choice if you ride on potholed roads in developing country traffic. Falling sideways under a close passing truck holds no appeal!
Oh my god...i just realized: Simon u look just like a young Bill Nye :))
Im gonna see that every time
Just a thought, but.
Muscles need oxygen to work.
So, I'd say that since oxygen usage was a tad higher with clipless, he actually did pull up, even if only ever so slightly.
That could explain lower heartrate with clipless also, he was in 'comfort zone', comparing to flats, where he had to push a bit harder and had trouble with steady pace.
Good point.
Speaking anecdotally, im a bike messenger and run flats on my work bike which is otherwise a standard road setup, and spds on my fast road bike, i'm riding on the bike with flats 4 to 8 hours a day at work, and the other one comes out at weekends for recreation. The only true performance advantage over flats i can feel with spds is when it comes to climbing,which is why i use them for general road riding. i actually find the flats faster on the flat ground, especially when running longer cranks and pedalling at slower cadences in higher gears, ideal for mashing around the city dodging traffic. I do enjoy the feeling of being connected to the bike with spds and the direct acceleration that comes with it, however lots of experience running both systems concurrently on pretty similar bikes has shown marginal performance gains in favour of spds, i just run them because i like the way they feel, not to save precious watts and shave seconds off an hours long ride.
Yeah, I'm relatively new to all this but.... in my experience you cannot get up and 'stand on it' with flats, or modify your stroke over a long ride to share effort across muscle groups without cleats.
Regardless of which is more efficient, I would always go for clipless, the security of not having your foot slip off the pedals is pretty much priceless, particular on wet days.
If you dont use pedals and shoes that are junk you dont have that issue. There are people riding downhill mountainbikes with flat pedals, so you should be able to keep your feel on the pedal on a flat road.
Can't bunny hop, typical roadie
i think that this was a good show of clip less to flat. i think that it would be interesting to see what happens when you go the other way. That is starting with some one used to riding flat pedals and going to clip less. I know that when i use a strap with my flat pedals ( i am a mt biker) it takes me a few miles to get used to how that feels.
I did a VO2 max test on bike and got a lower result than when running. I suspect reason for lower oxygen consumption with flats is similar to what my test told me - you're using less muscles with flats (not stressing hamstrings etc significantly), so require less oxygen - extra power generated by quads not necessarily requiring that much extra oxygen over a 10 min period - might be different once lactate properly builds up.
The cycling industry is ruled by racing and has been for a long time. I doubt that the same individuals that feel the need to cover themselves in advertisements on every ride will ever feel comfortable using a "kit" that does not 100% emulate what the pros use. The pros clip in so the industry will always tell people its 'blah blah blah' more efficient. I have worked in the industry for 10 years and on my first day they told me to tell people that real cyclists clip in. I do agree that bunny hopping a road bike is way easier clipped in but its more of a horse hop not a traditional bunny hop where you ride a manual and then suck your back tire up.There is also the topic of repetitive stress injuries that is over looked. Try this: put flats on your road bike, notice how you move your foot fore and aft on different terrain and at different exhaustion levels. I find that if I move my feet fore or aft the tinniest amount I can alleviate nagging knee pain that plagued me with $400 carbon shoes fitted with bike-fit cleat wedges. Imagine if your hands were duct taped to the bars and you could never move or adjust them. Long story short, even if flats were proven to be more efficient, it looks funny to wear a $500 pro kit with skateboarding shoes. Once you look in the mirror and see those ugly shoes taunting your kit that you worked so hard to copy, your identity of "racer guy" falls apart and you quickly realize that you don't need to dress like a circus clown to ride a bike. To be fast, all you need is a nicely tuned and fitted bike, some guts, and a few nice bib chamois'.This is meant to amuse but I am also being 100% serious. No offense to anyone and I do appreciate the video.
But his heart rate was 5bpm higher on flats. How is that more efficient?
+Mike Peacock They were looking at the difference in O2 consumption. In reality the numbers were just too close for there to really be any real difference.
Also, if you have a single muscle group doing the same amount of work as several muscle groups combined, your heart has to beat faster to supply the smaller area with sufficient blood flow for metabolic fuel/waste exchange. What's probably going on here (I read more about this in a more scientifically rigorous study that found something similar, though it used clip-in/"clipless" pedals and shoes for all scenarios - consciously pulling on the upstroke was more mechanically efficient but less biologically efficient) is that our extensor muscles in our legs are more efficient than our flexor muscles. This makes sense from an adaptive perspective: most of the force we exert when walking/running is extensor force, so organisms with more efficient extensors have a survival advantage in calorie-limited contexts, which have driven much of our evolution. When you pull up on the pedal, and to a lesser degree when you use clip-in pedals at all (though the variation seen here is likely within the error bounds), you shift the generation of some of the force from the extensors to other, less efficient muscles. This provides a greater averaged surface area for metabolic fuel/waste exchange because the labor is distributed across more muscles, so blood flow doesn't need to be quite as rapid, and it reduces energy conversion efficiency by shifting the labor from the more efficient muscles to less efficient muscles.
I found clipless to be the best value upgrade ( still very much green when it comes to road riding) but the biggest gain was when I was tiring I found it much more comfortable and quicker to recover
6:10 great to see johnathon is as confused as the rest of us about clippless pedals that clearly have clips. :)))