I use Look on my road bike and Shimano on my mtb. Can't say I would prefer one over the other. I have 2 bikes with flat pedals that I use to ride into town and it just doesn't feel "right" not to clip in.
Good work on this. Great vid. I can’t help reflecting on one other issue the studies don’t address, being the foot/leg muscle fatigue that builds up over longer rides (say 50-100kms or more) using flat pedals compared with clipless, especially at moderate to high intensity efforts. The flat pedal in this case requires more work to keep readjusting the foot position etc to keep up the required power. Even after 10-15 minutes of this, even if the efficiency were the same or similar, simple muscle fatigue would inevitably be greater.
Switched back to flats a few months ago on my road bike after using clipless since I started cycling a few years ago. I haven't found sprinting or hills to be too much of a problem, you just have to pull up on the bars and move the bike back and forth, which seems to be the way pros sprint anyway. Biggest benefit is the ability to easily cross a 3 lane highway at a crosswalk and walk across, and to be able to walk into a coffee shop without sounding like a tap dancer.
With flat pedals you can change your foot position. This may help especially on steep hills you can step on the middle of the foot area thus de-emphasizing the calves and promoting the use of larger muscle groups to push your way up a steep hill. This gives you access to variety in how you pedal. when you are back on flatter ground you can switch it up to a position that feels better for spinning...like more toward the ball of the foot.
Yeah, typically I go back on my heels for climbing and sometimes, when I've already ridden for a while and my legs start to "feel alive" I even pull back my feet and use my ankles for pedalling, taking a fair bit of load off of my legs.
Thanks for citing and interpreting empirical research from peer-reviewed journals on this topic. Seriously, this level of respect for Science in our society is becoming increasingly rare at a time when it actually could not be more important. You have done a great service to the cycling community and a very honorable job in qualifying your statements. Well done, deeply appreciated, and highly respected.
And yet the science here would clearly lead a person to the wrong conclusion if people don't understand the limitations of the studies. Namely in this case (as was stated) that climbing and max power tests were not done. We have countless races where nobody ever wins on flat pedals and the reason is that max power output is considerably higher on clipless pedals. It doesn't matter if you can almost keep up on the flat sections effiency wise if you are dropped going uphill when others are able to transfer 100w more power to the pedals.
Exactly, running tests in the lab with a bike fixed on steel rollers doesn't give data on what really occurs on the road. And we don't ride in one steady state all the time, sometimes we climb, or sprint, or cruise, or hammer. As we used to say in engineering, there's lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics. If the methodology is not sound, the results won't be either.
As a flat pedal rider I'd like to add my 2 cents. If you spend as much on your flat pedal shoes and pedals as you do cliples shoes you can get huge comfort and performance gains. I have come from riding clipless for 5 years with the carbon shoes and everything so I think I have a bit of experience in the field. I also used to struggle with knee pain that went away almost instantly when I switched to flats and I had tried all of the professional setups and stuff to try and fix it previously. I can't imagine going back to clipless I'd also like to add that keeping your foot on the pedal while sprinting or in other high effort situation comes from spending a bit more time on them.
I agree with you I had the same issues with knee pain also ankle pain and set ups and tried every option then bought expensive flat pedals and have a few shoe options I found for my ankle a good walking shoe works or cycling option that's similar... Anyway I find this set up very comfortable I cycle to commute or do long rides so comfort is key over performance anyway but it's interesting to know the performance isn't massively changed. Also off road and I do go a little off road even though my bikes a road bike with tubeless not a specific off road bike it still feels safest without being clipped in
I just started riding a bike since my childhood. I’m wearing my Nike athletic shoes while on bike too. Are they good or can you give me some good shoes recommendations for flat pedals? I don’t wanna buy clipless, they seem complicated.
SPD pedals aren't more expensive than flat pedals. Have to call bollocks on your statement that one can get huge performance gains from switching to flat pedals. You don't get any performance gains. In fact you will be slower. I have 3 bikes, one with flats, one with SPD, and one with combo SPD-flat. The flat pedals have their purpose, which is why I have them, but performance is definitely not the driver
When I was a bit younger, I used to bike across the Alps in flat pedals and sandals. Worked just fine. Ignorance is bliss and saves money. I have "upgraded" to toe clips with straps and sneakers as I got older though. Having fun and getting some exercise is key.
This video is completely in line with my experience. I switched to clipless this season and noticed no real upgrade in terms of "efficiency". You will only notice the improvement when going hard, the rest of the time there's no difference. The *real* gains for me have been the fact that my foot no longer slips off while pushing hard, which looks stupid and is dangerous(and ruins your attack), and that the cycling shoes actually increase my comfort, because I used to get awful soreness on the bottom of my foot from biking on flats with sneakers. While I'd definitely say the switch made cycling overall better for me, the cost is definitely on the high end, and the fact that it's advertised as such a massive game changer can lead to disappointment. Expect improvement, but not to the level some people claim.
personally i feel that clipless pedals help with the circular motion of the crank. which makes it seem more efficient when you cycle hard. When cycling hard, it makes it hard to get the circular motion down. As the more strength you use the more you need to control your legs to make a constant circular motion. This mean that when going hard, the timing of the transfer of power from one leg to the other isn't as smooth as using clipless. does that make sense?
@@Syn741 well, if you can quantitatively prove that then maybe it is true. If i was trying to win a competition then maybe i'd bother with clipless pedals, but i am not a professional cyclist so i have no use for them. For the 20+ years that i jave been cycling on a crowded city and sometimes offroad, pinned flat pedals are the best.
I use toe clips with cycling specific shoes. I glued a rubber on the sole, from a shoemaker store because these shoes are slippery to use with nothing on. This has a lot of benefits. No knee and tendon pains from the fixed position the clips force you to have. No odd falls that damage the paint and the bike more than the cyclist (except when you fall in front of a car). No foot pain that the sneakers tended to make. Better retention of the foot than with flats, I do not have to continuously adjust the foot position on the pedal. Try this way. Maybe you will benefit.
I agree your foot slops off less often with clipless but I find it slips of at completely unexpected times when I happen to apply light pressure at just the wrong angle but with flat I can always feel how secure my feet are and know if they're going to slip off before they actually do.
@@Syn741 Don't focus on circular motion. You should be focusing on one leg pushing down, the other pulling up. In perfect harmony, your legs should feel like pistons in an engine. Knees tapping your chest each time, lovely speed.
I use flats, I like being able to adjust my position and change which muscle is being used and give knee a change. Less repeating on one angle. Also means I can walk easily when I get off.
I ride a hardtail, though mainly on the road, with flats. My feet never slip, due to spikes, and I move my feet to a more forward position if climbing a steep hill. With my heels nearer the pedal I can apply more force with my legs without stressing my feet. I find it more l comfortable that way.
Same here. I have a goofy knee that does better on flats, and my foot position changes all over the place as needed. Even with high float pedals (Speedplaay Frogs) I just kept finding myself wanting to move around more than I could. When Frogs became unavailable I tried going back to SPD pedals, and my knee lit up like a christmas tree from the unclipping motion. Flats keep things under control so I am sticking with them.
Never locking my foot to a bike. Had too many close calls riding in city traffic where being able to jump off or ditch the bike or plant a foot on the ground quickly, saved my my ass or prevented injury for pedestrians not paying attention. Also makes sense that an upstroke would not make much a of difference since you're always downstroking on one side or the other with far stronger muscles. Great video.
@@bindingcurve I was once in a situation when I needed to slip fast both feet off the pedals in a forward motion so I could plant them in the ground and hold the bike in place instead of toppling over and crushing a kid under the full weight and energy of an adult and his bike coming at good speed. I was more than happy that I was riding flats with running shoes. As fast as you can be any form of attaching your feet to the bike always requires extra time to detach compared to flats you can slip off right away by just reducing pressure on the pedals. Sometimes even the shortest delay can cause major injuries.
You can adjust Shimanos so you can leap free with both feet simultaneously. Time MTB pedals, however, will try to kill you. Damn near pulled my feet out of the shoes trying to get out of those.
That's it. There goes the hour long lecture aimed at people joining the group rides with flat pedals. Back to talking about pedaling circles, no wait that one's also out.....
I just found out how to take a lot of seconds in 2nd transition in triathlon. Just use your running shoes on the bike :) Might not be interesting in long distance racing if the cycling shoes add to comfort but in short course or Olympic distance racing...this could easily make a difference. I can't say I am terribly surprised. When I first switched to clipless pedals I didn't get any faster. And I guess most of us here will ha e experienced the same.
I won my age group in a supersprint triathlon by riding in my running shoes. I thought I looked like a moron, but then I saw myself cruising past all the geared-up guys (cause I had to make up for my non-existent swim). If you also have some toe support attached to the flat pedals, it's almost not worth bringing your clipless pedals and cycling shoes for shorter (flat bike course) triathlon events.
Maybe not a bad idea, i often race people on the street and when we get to a light and have to stop well... i am usually 100m ahead while they are still busy clipping in.
@@e995a1ad I don't think putting on running shoes would take longer. When the clipless shoes are clipped in you need to put them on as well, and when the shoes are not clipped in you would run a lot faster to the line where you can't mount. Where do you think you would lose time in t1?
Great video as usual. As an avid, but distinctly non-elite, road and gravel cyclist my current practice is to use pedals that are SPD on one side and flats on the other and to wear cycling shoes with recessed SPD cleats. I ride about 80-90% of the time on the flats, and clip in only when the road becomes rough and/or twisty or there is a long fast decent. To me the biggest advantage of being clipped in is in the security of not having your foot jarred from the pedal and improvement in handling. Riding on the flats offers more comfort since the contact area is wider and I can shift my feet around to slightly different positions.
Thank you for posting this video Dylan. I greatly appreciate your science based approach, which identifies misconceptions associated with the conventional wisdom in cycling training. As a former triathlete and road racer, I became interested in the foot-pedal interface after experiencing chronic knee pain. A year ago, I switched a few of my bikes over to a large platform flat pedal, and noticed an immediate improvement in my comfort on the bike. I believe the key here was using a mid-foot position over the pedal spindle. After about three months, I was able to maintain the same power output as with clipless pedals in many cycling situations. Flat pedals will require some adjustment of the bike fit to get the best results. At the same time that I started experimenting with flat pedals, I also made a structured effort to improve my bike handling for gravel and mountain bike by practicing trials skills. It was here that I found flat pedals to be invaluable for improving my track stands, wheel lifts, and hops. While clipless pedals are used exclusively in road, XC mountain bike and gravel racing, in more technical events, such as enduro and DH racing, about 15% of the riders use flat pedals, and in the most technical events such as free-ride, slope-style, and trials, flat pedals are used exclusively. A few versatile riders switch between clipless and flat pedals based on the event. I believe all riders can benefit from spending some time on flat pedals, as this will make practicing low speed bike handling skills much safer. Once again, thank you for the thoughtful content.
I didn’t even know people thought clipless were more efficient, I just assumed everyone used them to not slip, for sprints, and for increased torque on the steep hills when standing and pulling up as well as pushing down.
I feel like for me personally the time I enjoy my clipless pedals the most is when I am trying to accelerate as fast as possible, something those studies did not look at as well. Super interesting overall!
This was from about 20 years ago when I was in college: the exercise physiologists I spoke to had established that pulling up with flexors was inefficienct, BUT, pushing over the top or pulling through the bottom of the pedal stroke was sometimes beneficial.
I tend to pull forward at the top/carry through at the bottom instead of "pulling up" and it feels like it recruits my shins and hips more than just my quads, I've found it helps me recover after sprints and uphill work, but I've also got monster calves and shins for whatever reason, I'm honestly not sure which came first, the 3/4ths stroke or the musculature. It feels like simply measuring output efficiency misses some of the other potential benefits behind a more complete stroke, but I'm also a relative novice and I'm only starting 20+ mile rides in the past two weeks, usually having stuck to 10-15 before.
Hear hear. For the longest time I cycled like a triathlete with a toe downward, downward pushing, running on a bike type style. The only pulling I could then do was upwards "On the upstroke" but now I have switched to a heel dipped, pushing forwards more and I can now scrape that mud on to the wall in front of me, as if I am pointing brickwork with mortar, and pull backwards not upwards, and this recruits my glutes. As Dylan says, this may not produce more power, but it uses a wider variety of muscles. I am 57 and my knees and hips started to go (hurt and even had instability) because I did not use my glutes at all. Now I have swapped to the old "bunched up at the back" style of riding, like I am sitting on a high recumbent and touching my toes. In this style, I think I need to use at least straps or clipless (i.e. clip in) pedals.
I only use flats for mountain biking, I don't like the feeling of having my feet stuck to the pedals when riding tricky sections when you may have to dismount quickly. I use the One Up Aluminum pedal, wide platform, grippy pins, low profile [the best pedal out there] and the lighter version 510 shoe. I unweight the up stroke pedal and can push pull because of the great pedal grip, with this technique and pedal/shoe combo I feel it is as efficient as clipless for constant speed continuous peddling. The only real down side to flat pedals are when peddling at higher cadence, it is hard to keep the feet from slipping off the pedals at high RPM, 60-80 RPM seem like the best cadence for flats. Clipless are better for sprinting and climbing steep hills when max power needed. I use clipless on my trainer however, working on lifting my shoe on the upstroke which helps my flat pedal riding when I unweight the up pedal.
I'm the indecisive cycler here. I use half-and-half SPD/Flat petals with quick dual pivot release and recessed cleat shoes that are comfortable to walk in. That way I just do what I want when I want. Sometimes I want comfort, sometimes I want security. I also subjectively found that locking in let me change what muscles I use more if certain parts of me leg are feeling more fatigued
I wish I could send this video back in time to all the "pro bike shop" nimrods who insisted that you had to use some sort of "clipped in" system in order to be taken seriously on a bike. Any "flat pedal" bike was "just a toy" according to these folks. I still recall taking a test ride on a bike with clips in a store, telling the salesman I did not want to test ride with the clips as it would be dangerous. Proceeded to get my foot stuck while trying to come to a stop and fell right over, smashing up my elbow and wrist really good.
I'm into touring where I like to do 200 km / day, spending 8 hours in the saddle. Speed is nothing to me and efficiency is everything. Based on your video, I have no desire to switch over. Thanks for this useful advice. I've found the other advantage to flat pedals is they're much easier when I get into a city and need to stop every couple of minutes. The disadvantage of flats is that there is a limited choice of stiff shoes for them. The running shoes I've been using make my feet sore after 4 - 5 hours. I've just ordered a pair of Five-Ten Freerider Pros and we'll see how they do. My two concerns are blisters and breathability.
You can still use something like a mountain bike shoe made for SPD pedals and just don't put the cleat on them. Still get the benefit of the stiff sole.
@@Dave_the_Dave that's actually interesting. I've actually thought of using a pair of hard soled cycling shoes without the cleats in them. Wonder how that would work.
Yesterday I hopped some bumps on a road descent and I was grateful to be clipped in for stability. I also have many scars on my legs from flats on the MTB. Efficiency findings are cool, but clipless have many benefits aside from actual pedaling.
I've been on flats for years. Back in the 90s I got a set of MKS brand clipless pedals which were hated by the biking press, but I loved. The reason they were disliked was because they were more sensitive to dirt in the cleats for clipping in, than SPDs, which is a fair point, but they were vilified because they didn't unclip when you moved your heel inwards, locking more firmly to the pedal instead. This feature was actually a major benefit as I could leave the release tension very low and still never get an accidental unclip because by just pulling my heels inwards a little when bracing for bumps or on hard sprints I was certain I was locked to the pedals. By the same token, I was so confident in the unclipping repeatability that I could unclip to bail off the back of an overcooked wheelie on demand and with no delay. Every clipless pedal I've used since (Admittedly all Shimano, mostly because most other bike companies seem to have spent so much on marketing wankers and cost cutting that they've forgotten to employ any engineers, so if Shimano can't do it, I can be pretty confident none of the rest can do it at twice the price) has been garbage in terms of repeatability on unclipping, staying clipped in reliably but with low enough force to unclip that bailing unexpectedly is an option and accidental unclipping under power. That I ride further and climb faster than most people I know who use clipless pedals using Hope flats (Only low profile flat pedal I've found that can survive actual XC/marathon mileage without the bushings dying in sometimes as little as a month) and FiveTens (The pins on my flat pedals chew through the soles of my FiveTens every 6 to 9 months, so it's more expensive to go with flats than clipless if you want your shoes to stay reliably watertight). The other weird quirk I get with clipless pedals is in the winter my toes will lose all heat within 10-15 minutes of starting a spin because the metal plate the cleat bolts to conducts all the heat out of them - this is with the supplied insole and a thin layer of styrofoam added under the insole and 2 pairs of socks, so they're a warm weather (>10 degC) only option anyway, but I've mostly stopped bothering with clipless at all now.
One other benefit of clip less pedals in off road usage is that when you're going over some chunky terrain your foot cant slip and get a pedal to the shin. In fact many dh racers use clip less systems
You described me coming home by bike lane, having a descending 800m section of patched patches over patches where I spend attention if anything rattles on a bike. If it's silent I'm sure every bolted connection is tight. And yes, clips have added me some confidence feet will not slip off pedals.
As someone with reasonably strong legs, the stock flat pedals on my road bike work just fine, because when climbing hills, I just double down into the drops and mash the pedals, not even getting out of the saddle. Works fine for me, and I also don’t gotta worry about clipping in and out. It just works (:
The main benefit I’ve found with clipless pedals is control in super rocky technical riding. That’s the main reason I’ve switched. Now after a few years knee pain is making me reconsider that.. I’ve done a few 50 mile rides on mixed surfaces w/ flat pedals and I have zero pain
Interesting, I'm a cyclist and mtb'er since 25 years and this actually mirrors my own experience when switching between different pedals and pedaling styles. I use spd pedals for my xc mtb and flat pedals for my vintage steel gravel bike. I've never felt that spd pedals actually make me that much faster in terms of pedaling effort, if you wear shoes with a thin stiff sole the power transfer on flat pedals can be really good as well. And if you improve your flat pedal technique so that you nearly lift the rear foot off the pedal during the upstroke flat pedals can be very fast, you can also pedal a little bit in a circle without losing grip forward or aft on the pedal. Basically flat pedals can be an artform in itself and it's not just about "pushing down". I also like the flat pedals for their sense of "purity", sometimes I feel that I enjoy the simplicity of flat pedals more. I do however like spd for the sense of being locked into the bike when going over roots and rocks, it can also be very beneficial for tricky climbs because of the more even torque distributions and it can help with bunny hops over logs etc. I sometimes pull up on the spd pedals but it's pretty rare and only if my main muscles are really sore and need a breather, I sometimes also pedal in a circle during 100% sprints but it's definitely not often and not very comfortable in all honesty. In summation some of my best and more memorable rides have been on flat pedals and some of my most intense and bad-ass ones have been on spd. Guess if you have several bikes you should do both styles and find what works for you, or just do what I do and switch it up. Nice video 👍
Nice! I run flats both on the road and gravel bike. Benefit is also I can micro adjust, use different muscles, go more on the toes on very steep hills, easily go on and off the bike, hike the bike, walk like a normal person. I never understood why I should bolt my feets on my bike.
As someone who used flats all his life and has only recently switched to clipless, this was something I've felt for the whole time, but thought something must be wrong with me or my pedalling in clipless lol
After years of going back and forth, back and forth, among foot-to-pedal options, I finally settled on my Campy flat pedals with Christophe toe clips. For me, this is the best of all worlds. I get just as good riding efficiency based on my real world experience (and this video). I get the advantages of having my foot securely in position on the pedals. I can remove my foot much faster from the pedal in an emergency. I get to use my running shoes so if I want to have an off -bike adventure to the coffee shop or hiking trails, I am ready to go. And I save the huge expense that comes with buying dedicated clipless bike shoes. The only down side I can see is for the bike accessory manufacturers who lose the business that comes with buying all that clipless gear. Anyway, just one man's opinion.
bikebudha01 Thanks for the tip! I checked those out and it says SpeedPlay Frogs were discontinued in Feb. of 2020. Oh well. BTW, I wouldn't refer to my system as being "strapped to the bike." My Campy plus Christophe system does provide a secure connection to the pedals but it allows me to pull my foot straight back and out of it's "mooring" with no issue under any emergency dismount situation...which is really important to me.
@@SignorLuigi You can still find frogs on the interwebs... get them while you can. (They last forever, I've been riding the same pair on my moutain bike for the last 3 mountain bikes i've owned. You do have to replace the shoe cleat every 5-7 years though...)
Gotta agree with this. Not necessary Campy/Christophe (something I lusted after as a teenager), but flats and toe clips in general. Yeah, it makes me look like an old fogey, but I like the security of being clipped in, the consistency of foot placement on the pedal, and the ease of getting out of toe clips. Not to mention still having the skill to quickly get into toe clips on a fixie ;-)
The ventilation and rigid bottoms of good clip less shoes makes cycling long distances more comfortable, hence more efficient. I still prefer MTB specific flats for the trails. I can wear them anywhere.
I come back to this after former pro racer Paul Voss briefly switched from road bike cleats and shoes to MTB cleats and shoes before the Unbound and had to stop the race after 3/4 of the way because his calves gave out. He never trained in the MTB Cleats and said they had a different position that his muscles weren't used to. But given that the SPD Cleats are way smaller than Road Bike Cleats it's also very possible that the transition is weaker in MTB Cleats and he just had to use way more energy in MTB Cleats. Flat Pedals would have been the right move. This is one clear an example of how ideology works and manifests itself. There is enough science out there that someone should give Flat Pedals in such races a try, especially if he has to walk in Mud so much. For the Unbound 350 it's very easy to see how Flat Pedals could save you a lot of energy as all the muscles in your foot will be contracted instead of one area only
Pure bollocks. His problem was he changed equipment before a race without taking time to test and fit. Not that he didn't use flat pedals. No offense, but utter nonsense.
@@PRH123 Take offense that you said nothing of value and didn't make one argument. Study biomechanics and energy. Learn. We don't live in a Minecraft world where everything is for free. Not to late to pick up a book.
@@ambulowan right, you’re a biomechanics and physics expert, strange you’re not working for pro cycling teams and sharing your vast knowledge with them, you could teach them your theory of foot contraction :)
@@PRH123 >working for pro cycling teams Like cycling teams have any expertise, for the longest time they were very resistent to any advice. Just look how long it took them to install the slightest now obv thing that everybody is doing. It was decades. Cycling teams is absolute amateur hour, it gets a little better now, but for most it's just about power, admitting something works better means that you are not needed at you job, so hardly anyone is doing it.
Obviously anicdotal, but I occasionally would use flat pedals at my Wednesday short course mtb races, to change it up a bit. Because of the surging/punchy, cx nature of rour short course races, it was a severe disadvantage. Much harder to make big repeated efforts. I would say that all of the benefit of clipless comes at certain power percentage, or a certain duration. Great video, man! I like that you get into topics that appear very basic or simple on the surface, and then can really discuss the more complex nuances of them.
I just recently got a mountain bike to expand my cycling options and it came with flat pedals. On my first ride my foot slipped off the pedal on a climb and the pedal swung around and gashed my shin. Clipless pedals were swapped on and I’ve been loving it ever since!
I saw another video recently about this subject and he brought up a good point, most of these studies take riders that are unfamiliar with riding flats. The points of being able to crank out a sprint for a road finish are valid. I don’t think any tour riders will be wanting to skip a pedal at a finish anytime soon. I am just your avg old man rider and recently broke two metatarsals in my foot on the lateral spect. I have always dealt with foot pain in long rides and struggled to find shoes wide enough to fit my foot. The injury brought me to a specialist and I need to correct my default of pedaling with the outside of my foot and get a wider shoe. After this and other videos I am going to flats and 510s for a bit to see for myself. Keep it up Dylan!
I like to be clipped in on my roadbike because it really helps me to stay focused and in the right position during longer periods of intense pedaling. On the other hand I always wear sneakers for comfort during casual rides with my touring bike and the idea of being clipped in on my MTB gives me anxiety. I never noticed any difference in efficiency, especially because there are so many other factors between the bikes like weight, rolling resistance, etc. Nice to see this being confirmed in the studies.
In my opinion when I switched to clipless I felt more scared riding my bike. The feeling that my legs are that locked in and when it comes to quickly getting them out, it doesn’t feel right. Also with clipless you need to adjust your cleats to proper fitting while flat you just move your foot back and forth. Another thing I noticed with clipless over the years is just how bad it is 99% of the time, it’s a pain to ride your bike clipping in and out over and over and makes cycling a hassle more than a joy. Flat pedals are great considering I don’t race or go for sprints
I switched to Schimano SPD on my mountain bike years back and once I got the setting it was a breeze to clip out and bunk a corner. TBH you just react from habit. Of course it is slower to get out of the pedal but if your not racing downhill, the climbing security and ability to lift the ass of the bike at will is great.
Nice video. As a long distance cyclist myself, there are several more benefits of good quality flat pedals that I’ve noticed. You can wear normal shoes which is nice if you bike someplace where you want to walk around. Cyclists who travel light will appreciate not carrying extra shoes. Flats are simpler, with fewer components which is nice for reliability when you’re far from any support system. Flats give you the ability to adjust the position of your feet, should they start to hurt and keep on riding. If you take a spill with flats, it’s super easy to recover from as you’re not clipped in. From my experience, I don’t recommend plastic pedals of any kind but instead, I recommend spending the extra on metal, mountain bike pedals that are wide with metal pins for grip as I have slipped off plastic pedals when they get wet when road riding.
flat rider here on a road bike. clipless is ok if you're racing or riding in a control environment. on the streets where we get to share a road with cars, you can't afford to remain locked to a bike. you need to be able to ditch the bike and stand up if something unexpected happens. in a motorcycle course, they actually teach you to let the bike go if it's going down and not hold on to it. plus what will you do if the spring malfunctions and you fall and the light just turns green. you better hope there are responsible drivers who have seen you. but we do need shoes with solid, unbendable soles. jus two cents.
In general, flat pedals are just as good as clipless, but I’ve found that when grinding up really steep hills (like Canton Ave with a 37% grade) in an event like the Dirty Dozen in Pittsburgh, clipless really helps.
Thanks for making this. I've been cycling flat forever. I went clipless when I was a pup and it didn't make sense. It didn't seem that much efficient. To busy to back it up with science (too lazy to do the science I mean), but now you posted this, I win! Thank you!
I tried clipless for a while but had no confidence on my MTB. It felt dangerous. Much happier with flats but you do need firm soles for efficiency. Nice to know I'm not losing out using flats. Thanks for vid Dylan. :)
The bouncing is not a problem when you are using the proper pedaling technique (heels down) and a proper flat pedal /shoe combination. The problem is that with flats when you go to a hard sprit or a steep climb your foot can go off. It takes lot of practice to master the sprint in race conditions on flats.
@@shannontrainer5857 no I didn't meant DH riders but also Xc riders. I should be more specific. I was referring to bouncing on rough terrain. Clipless pedals are obvious benefit to Xc where you often change cadence and sprint heavily. But on techy stuff not so anymore. Enduro, dh you often see flats. Both have their benefits and cons.
For my first 18 months of cycling, I was breaking a lot of left pedals (like 6 pairs). For unrelated reasons I tried SPD pedals about 2 years ago and I haven't broken a pedal since. My left leg is a CM longer than the right, and I think it was causing me to move my foot outward on the left pedal, essentially applying too much leverage on the outboard side. What I like about clipless pedals are how secure they make me feel in my footing.
I found it very hard to ride out of the saddle uphill on my road bike with flats because of the tendency of my feet to get out of position, and my subsequent fear of slipping off the pedal when trying to reposition them. Clipless pedals solved that problem beautifully. I wish I could post here the photo of my left leg covered in blood after slipping off my flat metal pedals on my 1993 mtb; the scars have never gone away.
This is exactly for me too. It is not about adding "free" speed, because at the end, power is power. However when it comes to foot placement stability and not having to think about repositioning your foot, clipless can not be beat. Heck I would trade slight loss of efficiency if it means I am more comfortable on the bike.
I just like having my feet stay attached to the pedal when riding in my city. Roads in Montreal have more in common with the surface of the moon than roads. Also makes hopping obstructions a lot easier. I do like the funny looks I get for having MTB pedals on a "go fast" bike but SPDs are great for getting around in a congested city with ground up pavement. I have to wonder if flats are a better overall work out; your foot can move around more and presumably bring more muscles into action; sort of like free weights being a better workout than machine that isolates just one muscle group.
@@cbcsucks2205 There's nothing you can do with clips that you can't with platforms. Montreal's roads in many places are not in great shape thanks to our wet->freeze cycles in winter. I work in an industrial park where there are potholes large enough to fall into. When hitting rough terrain at speed clips keep my feet on the pedals instead of flailing about. Its really just a personal preference; I feel more secure with clips than loose. Newfoundland is lovely.
I also use MTB pedals (Time ATACs) on my road bike. I prefer MTB shoes for general cycling (Toronto - roads suck here too as do drivers) and when you have to unclip and clip in a lot MTB pedals are easier since you don't have to flip the pedal. The shoes are better for walking around too - and since I'm an old guy with lots of skiing related knee issues - avoiding slips is important. The only give-up as far as I'm concerned is weight for the pedals and shoes - measured in ounces (or less than the weight of the average bowel movement! So regular use of Metamucil can even things up.)
I like foot retension (clipless, straps) because it keeps my feet much more stable and secure to my pedal when I'm riding at a high cadence. Also it makes me feel cool when I'm racing around.....
Dylan, thanks for the honesty. While I acknowledge the benefits of proper shoes and a clipless system, I personally think shaming people who choose to ride in straps is wrong. The enormous hype around clipless systems reminds me of music store chains selling incredibly expensive music gear to people who are, at best, hobbyists and not pros. The aging, out-of-shape group that I ride with are getting fleeced on expensive shoes and pedals, and I routinely take them out on a sprint.
if anything, it should create some humility in the group ride that when someone shows up with flat pedals it's more about rider preference and isn't a big deal
Chris Capoccia that such a thing even has to be said is amazing. I got into cycling just over a year ago, and I have been stunned at the near-cultish devotion some cyclists have to questionable or eve refutable ideas. Clipless pedals, skinny tires, rim brakes, and even such trivia as whether to put your sunglasses over or under your helmet straps are all things that I have encountered both in person (bike shops, otter riders,etc) and online. And beyond the beliefs themselves is the orthodoxy that you are indirectly referring to. It’s not enough for riders to have their own preferences, they want others to do it their way as well. The other day my son, who rides a very nice bike (Trek FX Sport) with flat bars and flat pedals, passed another rider on a climb, and as he went by the other rider said “You’re kidding me. You’re wearing sneakers and don’t even have a real bike.” Just one example, but Phil Gaimon recently did a video in which he encouraged veteran riders not to patronize all the new riders who have started due to the pandemic if they didn’t have the right pedals or wear the right gear. Your comment just adds to the sense that some percentage of the cycling community are just assholes who like to put down others who do things differently. Not all, or even most, but enough to show up routinely in discussions about riding conventions.
Yep, so many make claims about clipless pedals. But I feel like it's the "new shiny part" syndrome. I've been riding flats and clipless for years. For a 300km ride I used my massive flat pedals from "pedalling dynamics" as I didn't want pressure point's in the shoe creating pain. I know that I wasn't going to be sower with flats, and can adjust position on the pedals to suit requirements - heel forward for low cadance climbing, heel back for high cadence spinning.
@@domdonald for climbing on tarmac, I'm not convinced, for off road stuff at almost zero cadence I can see the difference. But the reality for the majority of road cyclists doing the weekly bunch ride at 150 watts avg? Those guys wouldn't experience any difference.
@@domdonald Yeah, I've felt the same thing. Punchy climbs to an extent, but accelerating through an intersection is so much better with clipless and I can much more easily pop up to 500-700 watts for a few seconds to get going. I'm also logging tons of miles, around 2K/mo., so it is nice to have a consistent bike fit locked in.
Thanks Dylan! I posed this possible topic a couple weeks ago in regards to using flats coming back from a broken ankle, then switching back to spd's and find no difference in power/HR. Interesting to see the science backs this up for steady state riding.
I think the bike fit element is super important here. Having your foot move around is like your saddle height and stance width constantly changing. Also sprinting on a flat pedal ABSOLUTELY sketches me out. Backhat Dylan is a legend as usual.
Interesting video. Thank you for looking into this subject with so much detail. I have never used lipless pedals. In the summer I love to cycle in my (closed toe) sandals. The up-stroke is there for efficient relaxation of the muscles. The pedals are cheap and it's awesome. The bicycle industry is good at marketing stuff that an average rider doesn't need.
I can ride three times as far when I clip in. When my quads get tired, I can switch out to hip flexors for a bit and vice versa. Being able to easily make use of more muscle groups, and alternating back and forth between those different groups has a synergistic effect on stamina. 15 miles on flat pedals and I'm done, but let me clip in and I can go 50-60 miles no problem.
Great video. My experience after years of riding flats then years of riding clipless - consistent, comfortable foot position > all other benefits when riding clipless. Before making the switch I would constantly be readjusting my foot position after every stop or slip and it often felt a little off. Afterwards my feet always feel comfortable as they are dialled in to the optimal position for me. I found little to no performance benefit with the minor exception of a brief burst of power cresting a steep summit or some such, when I would very briefly pull up a lot more for a few pedal strokes. Other than that I can imagine max sprints are also that bit more controllable but I so rarely did that in my riding days on flats I couldn't say even that for sure.
2 other variables in there. People who have shorter legs vs. longer(femur) legs, shoe size and then crank length! I have short legs 30.5" inseam 165m cranks. My power is much more equal with the 165's vs 170's cranks where as the power is much more in the down stroke and very little pulling up with 170's! Nice job today I enjoy watching all your video's!
I ride flats exclusively these days though I have spent years on clipless. Changing foot position is AWESOME on long rides to switch up muscles being used or to avoid cramps. In situations where you might need to bail flats win as well. I'm way more towards the slow pedal up, shred down end of the spectrum than the 'serious cyclists' Dylan is talking about though. When I was doing more XC oriented endurance riding on less gnarly terrain I did like having clipless.
Bingo. Had a coworker shatter his arm biking. I asked was he hit by a car. He said no, his feet got stuck on the pedals and he tipped over and "crashed" on the sidewalk. Most useless invention of all time if you are doing anything besides a legit bike race.
Yes, totally depends on riding situation and style. For me, hardtail I use clipless, full-suspension I use flats, not so much for the efficiency gains, but primarily so I don't get bucked off the pedals if a feature catches me by surprise. I also like the ability to bow my feet when needed on flats
I think clipless will become more relevant the more powerful a rider is; obviously pro sprinting is not going to be ideal on even the best flats. However, for regular riders like myself, going back onto flats (decent ones with a good platform and pins for grip) has been a revelation; I'm just as fast (or slow!) as before but find it much more comfortable. Clipless pedals are much more limiting in where you can position your feet so if that doesn't include the ideal position for a given rider then it's not really doing them any favours. Interesting vid as usual.
6:20 is truth.There are different pedalling styles for different situations. Efficient cruising, acceleration, sprinting (whether racing or just to make a traffic light), hill climbing, getting traction of bumps and humps, . On a long ride I will deliberately vary my technique to avoid fatigue -- sometimes exerting effort on the forwards & backwards parts of the stroke. Flat plastic pedals are slippy when wet. MTB pedals with pins have great grip except when pulling the foot upwards. Also when pulling up, you mentioned that the muscle used to bend the knee is weak, so power gains from clipping in and pulling up are weak. But when I stand up on the pedals and move my knee up like I am a kickboxer trying to knee somebody in the chest, I get a lot of power to spin the crank. This is a great video, and worthy of a follow-up.
I was doing the 2013 TT and i went from flat pedals to clipless and lost 1.30 sec on my time and at first i thought it was just me same thing the next week.so i went back to flat pedals and my time went back and I finished 3 in championship
I noticed a huge improvement when changing from any old random sneaker to running shoes with tall arch support. Knee tracking is now parallel and pedaling comfort is great. I’m only considering clipless pedals and shoes to avoid slipping when riding in the wet.
One use of clipless are technical, rocky, rooty climbs, where you need to pull up over roots and slippery rocks. They definitely help in those cases. I am sure studies will average out these low frequency events. Another is while descending, sometimes the bike gets into a precarious situation and the bike “bucks” you off the pedals. This can lead one missing the pedals and crashing. Again, a low frequency event, but significant in the impact on a rider.
Interesting how different we all are, I'm exactly the opposite! :-) I prefer flats when riding technical stuff, gives me more confidence, especially climbing over rocks/roots, knowing that I can keep going to the very last moment and easily put my foot down at any time and from any angle. Once I learned the proper technique ('heavy heels, light hands' etc.) I also prefer them going downhill over uneven ground, since with proper pedals and dedicated shoes I stay on the there even during the rough stuff (and the occasional buck).
There's an interesting video out there from Jeff Kendall-Weed. He goes through all the serious accidents he had. Of the half-dozen he can remember, 4 were on clipless and two on flats. He alternates between the two systems. Doesn't prove that clipless are more dangerous, but no way they're safer.
oldkayakdude most competitive MTB racers, Enduro, DH and XC ride with clips. I still ride flats on DH or when I am learning something nee and clips during races and training. By the way, Jeff Lenowski (one of the best trials riders in the world), normally rides with clips, with the exception of when he is doing trials. I have ridden with him several times.
@@farrier53 I have no shock on my road bike lol...you can still hit something and get thrown around a bit. I've definitely hit some sensitive parts on my top tube while standing up and losing pedal contact because I hit a big crack or pothole.
Interesting study! I have been using clip-less so long that I have not considered giving flat pedals any love. It very well may be worth it on shorter non-technical rides. Thanks for sharing.
I was interested to see a few tour divide riders using flats. I guess they wouldn't be using them across a 2700 mile race if the efficiency weren't somewhat comparable.
I don’t completely disagree but from what I can tell about the tour divide riders is that they aren’t exactly the most powerful riders but they have insane endurance and are just kind of crazy. I don’t think they care too much about power they probably care more about comfort for a 2-3 week endeavor.
@@spaaceman8908 Some Tour Divide riders definitely generate a ton of power. Especially those that are racing and going for records or wins. Mostly they ride flats because TD has a shitload of hike-a-bike even in a year with good weather (more if there's a lot of snow in the Rockies) Hiking with 5.10s or some other flat pedal shoe is way better than hiking in traditional MTB shoes.
@@TheDavidjakeson I mean a tour divide rider won’t be putting out over 500 watts if they are pacing themselves well. I also think the weather factor could make clipping in suck so it would make more sense to go with flats.
I've been road cycling for a few years and have road clippers pedals most of that time. Recently I got a used specialized allez sport. The previous owner had put flat pedals on it. I had planned on taking the clippers pedals off my old bike and put on it. Now I'm a city rider and have to stop a lot at lights and etc and deal with traffic on my rides. I am finding that the flat pedals are a lot easier deal with then the clipless one in my riding situation. I should also add I just ride for fun and fitness.
I have been watching you for awhile now Dylan and I have to say how great it's been to see your skin improve over that time. Now your handsomeness can really shine.
This is pretty interesting, but I've been using MTB shoes for commuting and longer rides for over 10 years. I like that the sole doesn't flex, there are no shoelaces to worry about, and I can use the same pair for years without destroying my normal shoes.
And it should. Heard of people falling over at stops because their feet are stuck. Coworker shattered his arm a few years ago and spent entire summer in a cast. I never heard of this phenomenon until he told me that he was in a bike accident and he explained it to me and I'm like wtf? I want my feet to be free 100% of the time in case I need to stop. When a baby runs out in front of you and your bike brakes won't stop you, your feet will... unless they are locked into the pedals.
I'm a frequent cyclist that uses cheap bikes (and even then they still get stolen frequently anyway), and while I'm not afraid of having my feet stuck to the pedals, I dislike the increased cost and decreased convenience on multiple levels. It seems ridiculous to me that anyone would use bike shoes unless they're professional track/road racers.
I like to be able to stop somewhere, go for a bit of a walk etc. Not seeing much appeal of clipless, never say never though. I do like to go decent distances and will consider things that might make that more efficient or comfortable but try to avoid getting sucked into consumerism as far as cycling goes.
I'm the opposite since I've had them, means I never have to worry about my feet coming unstuck when I hit a bump or are putting down the power whilst standing.
When I am grinding up a steep climb and cadence is low, pulling up helps me a lot. It does make a lot of difference. I'd like to see the actual parameters of the study. Stiff shoes are important too. At least for me. I get hot spots when I had cheaper entry level shoes.
@@antoniop1968 it happened to me before i was following a car then all of the sudden it stopped in front of me, i couldn't get out of clip right away i landed on my left side ... nothing serious though, just a bruised ego.
@@Robertlavigne1 that's why on busy streets using clipless pedals i refrain from doing track stands, but when im using flat pedals its fun and i do it a lot... easy to dismount in case i lost my balance.
I remember seeing a study a few years ago where it said that the leg muscles used in cycling worked most efficiently when the work:recovery ratio was about 1 to 5, ie they were only working about 1/6 of the time. That might work out at somewhat more than 60 degrees of rotation in practice since you don't instantly go from zero to full power and off again, there's a bit of building up and down. But it does suggest that the action mostly happens between the 12 and 6 o'clock positions with relatively little benefit to be gained from 'pulling up', since if you do this you are depriving your muscles of recovery time and making the whole action less efficient. It might be, as suggested at 9:30, that the main benefit of going clipless is that it at least keeps your foot in the right fore-and-aft position for maximum efficiency - but then you could say that for old-school clips and straps too. (It also more or less compels you to wear something with a good stiff sole, rather than £10 supermarket deck shoes or whatever you wear just to pop down to the shops...)
Clipless pedals keep my feet on the right spot the whole time, so I don't have to waste my energy on re-positioning my feet on the flat pedals throughout the whole ride.
When I climb and pull I notice that I run out of energy significantly faster and I tend to cramp up. So I go back to pushing only. Maybe I need to train to pull but I doesn't strike me as a possibility to gain an advantage.
Yeah that pulling when climbing only works for short durations for me as well. But it's still nice to use on that very steep section to keep some speed before you go back to grinding push-only :-)
The hard pulling is something I reserve for standing while climbing. That said, if you can perfect circles, you'll find your speed will increase. Does tend to wear your legs down faster though, so more training is required to build those muscles. ;)
1) I suspect pulling up on the pedal is not a great idea for the muscles and tendons around the knee even if there was a performance benefit. I had a pain on the backside of my knee that disappeared when I went to flats. 2) Float is fine for road but for mtb I want a firm position that I can readjust depending on the slope angle and terrain.
1) just because you have clipless doesn't mean you have to pull (and you can pull through much of the same angles with flats) 2) clearly personal preference, glad you like what you've got
I like to be clipped while MTB bc during rough descents, I'll ALWAYS know where the pedals are... right underneath my feet. I thought I was going to like them on the road bike but I kept getting knee pain... so I had to go back to flats.
Might be that being clipped in is putting your feet in a bad position that you usually compensate for by shifting your feet around. Maybe look at the crank length, q-factor or saddle height compared to your trail bikes
@@bikebudha01 thanks! Will look into it. I actually got fitted two days ago, the seat got raised about an inch and cleats aligned... Took it for a 15 mile ride and big change. Doesn't more float on the cleats mean more difficult to release them?
@@jzamudiorn Proper fit is everything. It's the best money you can spend on a road/gravel bike. Will solve 99% of your knee, back, everything pain. Will also make your more comfortable and faster.
Just had my flat peddles delivered, will switch them with the clipless tonight. My reasoning is purely due to safety on the roads, I thought with practice and use clipless would be safe but now I don’t think so, too many unpredictable things happen, all it takes is a pedestrian too absorbed with their mobile phone stepping in the road, then your off the bike and then it only takes a bus behind you and your as dead as a dodo. I’ll save the clipless for the track only, just not worth the risk.
Having ridden for almost a year on flat pedals on my road bike, when I finally switched to clipless I felt like kicking myself for waiting so long. It's made a HUGE difference in what I'm able to output on the bike. I've done group rides with flats and with clipless. The only time I go flats is when I'm just doing a lazy ride with a friend. If I'm gonna ride for myself (which generally means I'm looking to just get going and go as far as I can) I'm going clipless every damn time.
I use both : clipless on my road and flats on everything else. Clipless I generally will ride about 1 mph faster but only because I can peddle smoother overall. Both are great though.
I run flats on both my bikes, gravel and enduro. A friend of my aunts got paralyzed from the waist down when they couldn't unclip in a crash. Beyond that the wisest thing anyone has ever heard is flat pedals win medals /s
I recently upgraded my MTB to flat pedals and an oval chain ring. Holy crap that combination is the most significant improvement I have ever noticed. Would be interesting to see what you think about oval chain rings.
for people who cycle for a workout rather than racing/sport it does engage more muscle groups to pull up on the pedals even if it doesn't increase efficiency or output. That's why I use them personally.
I'm curious what various people think the definition of "serious cyclist" is. 100km per week mountain bikers? 50 km per week city commuters? only road racers or non-race "competitive" cycling?
Flats for me on my XC mtb and indoor trainer with 5/10's on my feet. It all comes down to personal preference, I tried clips for awhile but I like comfort and confidence I get from riding with flats. I kind of see it like my dropper post - I'll take the weight penalty if it makes me more confident on the bike. The one thing I question on the various studies is how familiar the riders are with either system, meaning someone who always rides clips and then has to wear flats for a test is likely not going to do well with the flats and vice versa. I remember watching a GCN video on the clips vs. flats debate and they clearly had their foot placement completely wrong for the flat pedals (should be more of a mid sole placement for the flats). I also agree the tests tend to be limited and typically don't take into consideration different riding conditions (climbs, descents, technical features, etc.). I recognize the difficulty with getting results with so many variables.
Thanks for this informative video. I use flat pedals and will continue doing so as I don't take cycling that serious and more than half my cycling is commuting. I do however notice some discomfort on longer weekend rides that may be related to the lack o stiffness from my shoe/pedal setup.
2 points (both anecdotal) that I would make. 1. For me, when I pull up with my clip-less pedals is very situational. When I am trying to catch someone on a flat, or when my cadence is slowed to a grind on a steep hill are examples that come to mind. Now, these aren't moments where efficiency are that important, but a benefit is still had. 2. I have a 25 year old huffy that I am converting into a decent zwift bike. I did a few rides on the flat pedals that came with the bike, and I can tell you, that when your feet fly off the pedals in high intensity moments, like sprints, or high gear, gear shifts, the moments while you gather your footing (and your senses), are extremely inefficient. I'll keep my clip-less (or at the very least toe clips) thank you very much.
Do you use clipless pedals, flat pedals or both in different situations? Also, which brand do you think has the best clipless pedal system?
Love Speedplays for the road and Shimano Xtr on Mtb and Cx
I use Look on my road bike and Shimano on my mtb. Can't say I would prefer one over the other.
I have 2 bikes with flat pedals that I use to ride into town and it just doesn't feel "right" not to clip in.
Good work on this. Great vid. I can’t help reflecting on one other issue the studies don’t address, being the foot/leg muscle fatigue that builds up over longer rides (say 50-100kms or more) using flat pedals compared with clipless, especially at moderate to high intensity efforts. The flat pedal in this case requires more work to keep readjusting the foot position etc to keep up the required power. Even after 10-15 minutes of this, even if the efficiency were the same or similar, simple muscle fatigue would inevitably be greater.
speedplay for road, crank bros stamp 11 flats for gravel, commuting
I use Look MTB on the gravel and SpeedPlays on the road bike. I've been browsing Shimano road pedals lately..
Switched back to flats a few months ago on my road bike after using clipless since I started cycling a few years ago. I haven't found sprinting or hills to be too much of a problem, you just have to pull up on the bars and move the bike back and forth, which seems to be the way pros sprint anyway. Biggest benefit is the ability to easily cross a 3 lane highway at a crosswalk and walk across, and to be able to walk into a coffee shop without sounding like a tap dancer.
Lol
I switch to flat + five-tens on all my bikes, Including road three years ago. No regrets.
How about walking down mildly steep paved hills? Clipless shoes + that = scarier than a large dog charging you.
I've always used MTB shoes for that very reason. Every now and then you might hear the cleat but walking is much easier.
@@purinahalloffame Same.
With flat pedals you can change your foot position. This may help especially on steep hills you can step on the middle of the foot area thus de-emphasizing the calves and promoting the use of larger muscle groups to push your way up a steep hill. This gives you access to variety in how you pedal. when you are back on flatter ground you can switch it up to a position that feels better for spinning...like more toward the ball of the foot.
Yeah, typically I go back on my heels for climbing and sometimes, when I've already ridden for a while and my legs start to "feel alive" I even pull back my feet and use my ankles for pedalling, taking a fair bit of load off of my legs.
Thanks for citing and interpreting empirical research from peer-reviewed journals on this topic. Seriously, this level of respect for Science in our society is becoming increasingly rare at a time when it actually could not be more important. You have done a great service to the cycling community and a very honorable job in qualifying your statements. Well done, deeply appreciated, and highly respected.
And yet the science here would clearly lead a person to the wrong conclusion if people don't understand the limitations of the studies. Namely in this case (as was stated) that climbing and max power tests were not done. We have countless races where nobody ever wins on flat pedals and the reason is that max power output is considerably higher on clipless pedals. It doesn't matter if you can almost keep up on the flat sections effiency wise if you are dropped going uphill when others are able to transfer 100w more power to the pedals.
Exactly, running tests in the lab with a bike fixed on steel rollers doesn't give data on what really occurs on the road. And we don't ride in one steady state all the time, sometimes we climb, or sprint, or cruise, or hammer.
As we used to say in engineering, there's lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics. If the methodology is not sound, the results won't be either.
As a flat pedal rider I'd like to add my 2 cents. If you spend as much on your flat pedal shoes and pedals as you do cliples shoes you can get huge comfort and performance gains. I have come from riding clipless for 5 years with the carbon shoes and everything so I think I have a bit of experience in the field. I also used to struggle with knee pain that went away almost instantly when I switched to flats and I had tried all of the professional setups and stuff to try and fix it previously. I can't imagine going back to clipless
I'd also like to add that keeping your foot on the pedal while sprinting or in other high effort situation comes from spending a bit more time on them.
I agree with you I had the same issues with knee pain also ankle pain and set ups and tried every option then bought expensive flat pedals and have a few shoe options I found for my ankle a good walking shoe works or cycling option that's similar... Anyway I find this set up very comfortable I cycle to commute or do long rides so comfort is key over performance anyway but it's interesting to know the performance isn't massively changed. Also off road and I do go a little off road even though my bikes a road bike with tubeless not a specific off road bike it still feels safest without being clipped in
I just started riding a bike since my childhood. I’m wearing my Nike athletic shoes while on bike too. Are they good or can you give me some good shoes recommendations for flat pedals? I don’t wanna buy clipless, they seem complicated.
@@manojreddy123google can give you a nice list if you search "flat pedal shoes". Fiveten Freeriders etc come up on such searches.
SPD pedals aren't more expensive than flat pedals.
Have to call bollocks on your statement that one can get huge performance gains from switching to flat pedals. You don't get any performance gains. In fact you will be slower.
I have 3 bikes, one with flats, one with SPD, and one with combo SPD-flat. The flat pedals have their purpose, which is why I have them, but performance is definitely not the driver
When I was a bit younger, I used to bike across the Alps in flat pedals and sandals. Worked just fine. Ignorance is bliss and saves money. I have "upgraded" to toe clips with straps and sneakers as I got older though. Having fun and getting some exercise is key.
This video is completely in line with my experience. I switched to clipless this season and noticed no real upgrade in terms of "efficiency". You will only notice the improvement when going hard, the rest of the time there's no difference. The *real* gains for me have been the fact that my foot no longer slips off while pushing hard, which looks stupid and is dangerous(and ruins your attack), and that the cycling shoes actually increase my comfort, because I used to get awful soreness on the bottom of my foot from biking on flats with sneakers. While I'd definitely say the switch made cycling overall better for me, the cost is definitely on the high end, and the fact that it's advertised as such a massive game changer can lead to disappointment. Expect improvement, but not to the level some people claim.
personally i feel that clipless pedals help with the circular motion of the crank. which makes it seem more efficient when you cycle hard. When cycling hard, it makes it hard to get the circular motion down. As the more strength you use the more you need to control your legs to make a constant circular motion. This mean that when going hard, the timing of the transfer of power from one leg to the other isn't as smooth as using clipless. does that make sense?
@@Syn741 well, if you can quantitatively prove that then maybe it is true.
If i was trying to win a competition then maybe i'd bother with clipless pedals, but i am not a professional cyclist so i have no use for them. For the 20+ years that i jave been cycling on a crowded city and sometimes offroad, pinned flat pedals are the best.
I use toe clips with cycling specific shoes. I glued a rubber on the sole, from a shoemaker store because these shoes are slippery to use with nothing on. This has a lot of benefits. No knee and tendon pains from the fixed position the clips force you to have. No odd falls that damage the paint and the bike more than the cyclist (except when you fall in front of a car). No foot pain that the sneakers tended to make. Better retention of the foot than with flats, I do not have to continuously adjust the foot position on the pedal. Try this way. Maybe you will benefit.
I agree your foot slops off less often with clipless but I find it slips of at completely unexpected times when I happen to apply light pressure at just the wrong angle but with flat I can always feel how secure my feet are and know if they're going to slip off before they actually do.
@@Syn741 Don't focus on circular motion. You should be focusing on one leg pushing down, the other pulling up. In perfect harmony, your legs should feel like pistons in an engine. Knees tapping your chest each time, lovely speed.
I use flats, I like being able to adjust my position and change which muscle is being used and give knee a change. Less repeating on one angle. Also means I can walk easily when I get off.
use mtb shoes
Yup. Repeated stress injuries are a real thing.
I ride a hardtail, though mainly on the road, with flats. My feet never slip, due to spikes, and I move my feet to a more forward position if climbing a steep hill. With my heels nearer the pedal I can apply more force with my legs without stressing my feet. I find it more l comfortable that way.
Same here. I have a goofy knee that does better on flats, and my foot position changes all over the place as needed. Even with high float pedals (Speedplaay Frogs) I just kept finding myself wanting to move around more than I could. When Frogs became unavailable I tried going back to SPD pedals, and my knee lit up like a christmas tree from the unclipping motion. Flats keep things under control so I am sticking with them.
@@123moof same
Never locking my foot to a bike. Had too many close calls riding in city traffic where being able to jump off or ditch the bike or plant a foot on the ground quickly, saved my my ass or prevented injury for pedestrians not paying attention. Also makes sense that an upstroke would not make much a of difference since you're always downstroking on one side or the other with far stronger muscles. Great video.
Once you you them for a wile, getting out is not an issue.
@@bindingcurve I was once in a situation when I needed to slip fast both feet off the pedals in a forward motion so I could plant them in the ground and hold the bike in place instead of toppling over and crushing a kid under the full weight and energy of an adult and his bike coming at good speed. I was more than happy that I was riding flats with running shoes. As fast as you can be any form of attaching your feet to the bike always requires extra time to detach compared to flats you can slip off right away by just reducing pressure on the pedals. Sometimes even the shortest delay can cause major injuries.
You can adjust Shimanos so you can leap free with both feet simultaneously. Time MTB pedals, however, will try to kill you. Damn near pulled my feet out of the shoes trying to get out of those.
City traffic is not really the environment to use clipless pedals in the first place.
@Will How exactly are your clipless pedals to blame for landing on your shoulder?
That's it. There goes the hour long lecture aimed at people joining the group rides with flat pedals. Back to talking about pedaling circles, no wait that one's also out.....
These were some of the best backwards hat Dylan moments
Backward hat Dylan rocks.
"nope unsubscribed" 😂
Loved the beard too!
Had the exact same thought.
I just found out how to take a lot of seconds in 2nd transition in triathlon.
Just use your running shoes on the bike :)
Might not be interesting in long distance racing if the cycling shoes add to comfort but in short course or Olympic distance racing...this could easily make a difference.
I can't say I am terribly surprised.
When I first switched to clipless pedals I didn't get any faster.
And I guess most of us here will ha e experienced the same.
I won my age group in a supersprint triathlon by riding in my running shoes. I thought I looked like a moron, but then I saw myself cruising past all the geared-up guys (cause I had to make up for my non-existent swim).
If you also have some toe support attached to the flat pedals, it's almost not worth bringing your clipless pedals and cycling shoes for shorter (flat bike course) triathlon events.
Maybe not a bad idea, i often race people on the street and when we get to a light and have to stop well... i am usually 100m ahead while they are still busy clipping in.
The time you'd be saving in T2 would be lost in T1
@@e995a1ad I don't think putting on running shoes would take longer.
When the clipless shoes are clipped in you need to put them on as well, and when the shoes are not clipped in you would run a lot faster to the line where you can't mount.
Where do you think you would lose time in t1?
This is a good point for a shorter flat Tri. I bet there is also an aerodynamic difference that becomes noticeable in long distance riding.
Great video as usual. As an avid, but distinctly non-elite, road and gravel cyclist my current practice is to use pedals that are SPD on one side and flats on the other and to wear cycling shoes with recessed SPD cleats. I ride about 80-90% of the time on the flats, and clip in only when the road becomes rough and/or twisty or there is a long fast decent. To me the biggest advantage of being clipped in is in the security of not having your foot jarred from the pedal and improvement in handling. Riding on the flats offers more comfort since the contact area is wider and I can shift my feet around to slightly different positions.
Thank you for posting this video Dylan. I greatly appreciate your science based approach, which identifies misconceptions associated with the conventional wisdom in cycling training. As a former triathlete and road racer, I became interested in the foot-pedal interface after experiencing chronic knee pain. A year ago, I switched a few of my bikes over to a large platform flat pedal, and noticed an immediate improvement in my comfort on the bike. I believe the key here was using a mid-foot position over the pedal spindle. After about three months, I was able to maintain the same power output as with clipless pedals in many cycling situations. Flat pedals will require some adjustment of the bike fit to get the best results. At the same time that I started experimenting with flat pedals, I also made a structured effort to improve my bike handling for gravel and mountain bike by practicing trials skills. It was here that I found flat pedals to be invaluable for improving my track stands, wheel lifts, and hops. While clipless pedals are used exclusively in road, XC mountain bike and gravel racing, in more technical events, such as enduro and DH racing, about 15% of the riders use flat pedals, and in the most technical events such as free-ride, slope-style, and trials, flat pedals are used exclusively. A few versatile riders switch between clipless and flat pedals based on the event. I believe all riders can benefit from spending some time on flat pedals, as this will make practicing low speed bike handling skills much safer. Once again, thank you for the thoughtful content.
I didn’t even know people thought clipless were more efficient, I just assumed everyone used them to not slip, for sprints, and for increased torque on the steep hills when standing and pulling up as well as pushing down.
I feel like for me personally the time I enjoy my clipless pedals the most is when I am trying to accelerate as fast as possible, something those studies did not look at as well.
Super interesting overall!
This was from about 20 years ago when I was in college: the exercise physiologists I spoke to had established that pulling up with flexors was inefficienct, BUT, pushing over the top or pulling through the bottom of the pedal stroke was sometimes beneficial.
I tend to pull forward at the top/carry through at the bottom instead of "pulling up" and it feels like it recruits my shins and hips more than just my quads, I've found it helps me recover after sprints and uphill work, but I've also got monster calves and shins for whatever reason, I'm honestly not sure which came first, the 3/4ths stroke or the musculature.
It feels like simply measuring output efficiency misses some of the other potential benefits behind a more complete stroke, but I'm also a relative novice and I'm only starting 20+ mile rides in the past two weeks, usually having stuck to 10-15 before.
Hear hear. For the longest time I cycled like a triathlete with a toe downward, downward pushing, running on a bike type style. The only pulling I could then do was upwards "On the upstroke" but now I have switched to a heel dipped, pushing forwards more and I can now scrape that mud on to the wall in front of me, as if I am pointing brickwork with mortar, and pull backwards not upwards, and this recruits my glutes. As Dylan says, this may not produce more power, but it uses a wider variety of muscles. I am 57 and my knees and hips started to go (hurt and even had instability) because I did not use my glutes at all. Now I have swapped to the old "bunched up at the back" style of riding, like I am sitting on a high recumbent and touching my toes. In this style, I think I need to use at least straps or clipless (i.e. clip in) pedals.
I only use flats for mountain biking, I don't like the feeling of having my feet stuck to the pedals when riding tricky sections when you may have to dismount quickly. I use the One Up Aluminum pedal, wide platform, grippy pins, low profile [the best pedal out there] and the lighter version 510 shoe.
I unweight the up stroke pedal and can push pull because of the great pedal grip, with this technique and pedal/shoe combo I feel it is as efficient as clipless for constant speed continuous peddling.
The only real down side to flat pedals are when peddling at higher cadence, it is hard to keep the feet from slipping off the pedals at high RPM, 60-80 RPM seem like the best cadence for flats.
Clipless are better for sprinting and climbing steep hills when max power needed.
I use clipless on my trainer however, working on lifting my shoe on the upstroke which helps my flat pedal riding when I unweight the up pedal.
I'm the indecisive cycler here. I use half-and-half SPD/Flat petals with quick dual pivot release and recessed cleat shoes that are comfortable to walk in. That way I just do what I want when I want. Sometimes I want comfort, sometimes I want security. I also subjectively found that locking in let me change what muscles I use more if certain parts of me leg are feeling more fatigued
I wish I could send this video back in time to all the "pro bike shop" nimrods who insisted that you had to use some sort of "clipped in" system in order to be taken seriously on a bike. Any "flat pedal" bike was "just a toy" according to these folks. I still recall taking a test ride on a bike with clips in a store, telling the salesman I did not want to test ride with the clips as it would be dangerous. Proceeded to get my foot stuck while trying to come to a stop and fell right over, smashing up my elbow and wrist really good.
I'm into touring where I like to do 200 km / day, spending 8 hours in the saddle. Speed is nothing to me and efficiency is everything. Based on your video, I have no desire to switch over. Thanks for this useful advice. I've found the other advantage to flat pedals is they're much easier when I get into a city and need to stop every couple of minutes. The disadvantage of flats is that there is a limited choice of stiff shoes for them. The running shoes I've been using make my feet sore after 4 - 5 hours. I've just ordered a pair of Five-Ten Freerider Pros and we'll see how they do. My two concerns are blisters and breathability.
You can still use something like a mountain bike shoe made for SPD pedals and just don't put the cleat on them. Still get the benefit of the stiff sole.
@@Dave_the_Dave that's actually interesting. I've actually thought of using a pair of hard soled cycling shoes without the cleats in them. Wonder how that would work.
B.S.
Yesterday I hopped some bumps on a road descent and I was grateful to be clipped in for stability. I also have many scars on my legs from flats on the MTB. Efficiency findings are cool, but clipless have many benefits aside from actual pedaling.
plus it sounded like most the studies where on stationary bicycles.......I like the feel of being clipped in!
I've been on flats for years. Back in the 90s I got a set of MKS brand clipless pedals which were hated by the biking press, but I loved. The reason they were disliked was because they were more sensitive to dirt in the cleats for clipping in, than SPDs, which is a fair point, but they were vilified because they didn't unclip when you moved your heel inwards, locking more firmly to the pedal instead. This feature was actually a major benefit as I could leave the release tension very low and still never get an accidental unclip because by just pulling my heels inwards a little when bracing for bumps or on hard sprints I was certain I was locked to the pedals. By the same token, I was so confident in the unclipping repeatability that I could unclip to bail off the back of an overcooked wheelie on demand and with no delay.
Every clipless pedal I've used since (Admittedly all Shimano, mostly because most other bike companies seem to have spent so much on marketing wankers and cost cutting that they've forgotten to employ any engineers, so if Shimano can't do it, I can be pretty confident none of the rest can do it at twice the price) has been garbage in terms of repeatability on unclipping, staying clipped in reliably but with low enough force to unclip that bailing unexpectedly is an option and accidental unclipping under power. That I ride further and climb faster than most people I know who use clipless pedals using Hope flats (Only low profile flat pedal I've found that can survive actual XC/marathon mileage without the bushings dying in sometimes as little as a month) and FiveTens (The pins on my flat pedals chew through the soles of my FiveTens every 6 to 9 months, so it's more expensive to go with flats than clipless if you want your shoes to stay reliably watertight).
The other weird quirk I get with clipless pedals is in the winter my toes will lose all heat within 10-15 minutes of starting a spin because the metal plate the cleat bolts to conducts all the heat out of them - this is with the supplied insole and a thin layer of styrofoam added under the insole and 2 pairs of socks, so they're a warm weather (>10 degC) only option anyway, but I've mostly stopped bothering with clipless at all now.
One other benefit of clip less pedals in off road usage is that when you're going over some chunky terrain your foot cant slip and get a pedal to the shin. In fact many dh racers use clip less systems
Almost all of them
yeap! Clipless for DH all the way, slipping a pedal do to being bounced off blows. Though for messing around I like to learn on flats
@@sircrackien True!
You described me coming home by bike lane, having a descending 800m section of patched patches over patches where I spend attention if anything rattles on a bike. If it's silent I'm sure every bolted connection is tight. And yes, clips have added me some confidence feet will not slip off pedals.
This is why I switched to clipless
As someone with reasonably strong legs, the stock flat pedals on my road bike work just fine, because when climbing hills, I just double down into the drops and mash the pedals, not even getting out of the saddle. Works fine for me, and I also don’t gotta worry about clipping in and out. It just works (:
The main benefit I’ve found with clipless pedals is control in super rocky technical riding. That’s the main reason I’ve switched. Now after a few years knee pain is making me reconsider that.. I’ve done a few 50 mile rides on mixed surfaces w/ flat pedals and I have zero pain
Interesting, I'm a cyclist and mtb'er since 25 years and this actually mirrors my own experience when switching between different pedals and pedaling styles. I use spd pedals for my xc mtb and flat pedals for my vintage steel gravel bike. I've never felt that spd pedals actually make me that much faster in terms of pedaling effort, if you wear shoes with a thin stiff sole the power transfer on flat pedals can be really good as well. And if you improve your flat pedal technique so that you nearly lift the rear foot off the pedal during the upstroke flat pedals can be very fast, you can also pedal a little bit in a circle without losing grip forward or aft on the pedal. Basically flat pedals can be an artform in itself and it's not just about "pushing down". I also like the flat pedals for their sense of "purity", sometimes I feel that I enjoy the simplicity of flat pedals more. I do however like spd for the sense of being locked into the bike when going over roots and rocks, it can also be very beneficial for tricky climbs because of the more even torque distributions and it can help with bunny hops over logs etc. I sometimes pull up on the spd pedals but it's pretty rare and only if my main muscles are really sore and need a breather, I sometimes also pedal in a circle during 100% sprints but it's definitely not often and not very comfortable in all honesty. In summation some of my best and more memorable rides have been on flat pedals and some of my most intense and bad-ass ones have been on spd. Guess if you have several bikes you should do both styles and find what works for you, or just do what I do and switch it up. Nice video 👍
Nice! I run flats both on the road and gravel bike. Benefit is also I can micro adjust, use different muscles, go more on the toes on very steep hills, easily go on and off the bike, hike the bike, walk like a normal person. I never understood why I should bolt my feets on my bike.
As someone who used flats all his life and has only recently switched to clipless, this was something I've felt for the whole time, but thought something must be wrong with me or my pedalling in clipless lol
Same here. Main thing for me is not worrying about slipping a pedal though
After years of going back and forth, back and forth, among foot-to-pedal options, I finally settled on my Campy flat pedals with Christophe toe clips. For me, this is the best of all worlds. I get just as good riding efficiency based on my real world experience (and this video). I get the advantages of having my foot securely in position on the pedals. I can remove my foot much faster from the pedal in an emergency. I get to use my running shoes so if I want to have an off -bike adventure to the coffee shop or hiking trails, I am ready to go. And I save the huge expense that comes with buying dedicated clipless bike shoes. The only down side I can see is for the bike accessory manufacturers who lose the business that comes with buying all that clipless gear. Anyway, just one man's opinion.
Speedplay frogs will release telepathically, much much faster than being strapped into the bike.
bikebudha01 Thanks for the tip! I checked those out and it says SpeedPlay Frogs were discontinued in Feb. of 2020. Oh well. BTW, I wouldn't refer to my system as being "strapped to the bike." My Campy plus Christophe system does provide a secure connection to the pedals but it allows me to pull my foot straight back and out of it's "mooring" with no issue under any emergency dismount situation...which is really important to me.
@@SignorLuigi You can still find frogs on the interwebs... get them while you can. (They last forever, I've been riding the same pair on my moutain bike for the last 3 mountain bikes i've owned. You do have to replace the shoe cleat every 5-7 years though...)
Gotta agree with this. Not necessary Campy/Christophe (something I lusted after as a teenager), but flats and toe clips in general. Yeah, it makes me look like an old fogey, but I like the security of being clipped in, the consistency of foot placement on the pedal, and the ease of getting out of toe clips. Not to mention still having the skill to quickly get into toe clips on a fixie ;-)
jalanperak I get those "old fogey" looks on rare occasions. I just smile back. Sounds like we come from similar generations. Ride on brother!
The ventilation and rigid bottoms of good clip less shoes makes cycling long distances more comfortable, hence more efficient. I still prefer MTB specific flats for the trails. I can wear them anywhere.
I come back to this after former pro racer Paul Voss briefly switched from road bike cleats and shoes to MTB cleats and shoes before the Unbound and had to stop the race after 3/4 of the way because his calves gave out.
He never trained in the MTB Cleats and said they had a different position that his muscles weren't used to.
But given that the SPD Cleats are way smaller than Road Bike Cleats it's also very possible that the transition is weaker in MTB Cleats and he just had to use way more energy in MTB Cleats.
Flat Pedals would have been the right move.
This is one clear an example of how ideology works and manifests itself. There is enough science out there that someone should give Flat Pedals in such races a try, especially if he has to walk in Mud so much. For the Unbound 350 it's very easy to see how Flat Pedals could save you a lot of energy as all the muscles in your foot will be contracted instead of one area only
Pure bollocks. His problem was he changed equipment before a race without taking time to test and fit. Not that he didn't use flat pedals. No offense, but utter nonsense.
@@PRH123 Take offense that you said nothing of value and didn't make one argument. Study biomechanics and energy. Learn. We don't live in a Minecraft world where everything is for free. Not to late to pick up a book.
@@ambulowan right, you’re a biomechanics and physics expert, strange you’re not working for pro cycling teams and sharing your vast knowledge with them, you could teach them your theory of foot contraction :)
@@PRH123 >working for pro cycling teams
Like cycling teams have any expertise,
for the longest time they were very resistent to any advice. Just look how long it took them to install the slightest now obv thing that everybody is doing. It was decades. Cycling teams is absolute amateur hour, it gets a little better now, but for most it's just about power, admitting something works better means that you are not needed at you job, so hardly anyone is doing it.
Obviously anicdotal, but I occasionally would use flat pedals at my Wednesday short course mtb races, to change it up a bit. Because of the surging/punchy, cx nature of rour short course races, it was a severe disadvantage. Much harder to make big repeated efforts.
I would say that all of the benefit of clipless comes at certain power percentage, or a certain duration.
Great video, man! I like that you get into topics that appear very basic or simple on the surface, and then can really discuss the more complex nuances of them.
... anecdotal* ...
These videos are gold, as much for the comedy as the science. Keep up the good work.
God knows why it is called 'Clipless' when it actually clips you to the pedal even when you want to bail out.
I just recently got a mountain bike to expand my cycling options and it came with flat pedals. On my first ride my foot slipped off the pedal on a climb and the pedal swung around and gashed my shin. Clipless pedals were swapped on and I’ve been loving it ever since!
Just fit flat pedals and shoes that don't slip.
I saw another video recently about this subject and he brought up a good point, most of these studies take riders that are unfamiliar with riding flats. The points of being able to crank out a sprint for a road finish are valid. I don’t think any tour riders will be wanting to skip a pedal at a finish anytime soon. I am just your avg old man rider and recently broke two metatarsals in my foot on the lateral spect. I have always dealt with foot pain in long rides and struggled to find shoes wide enough to fit my foot. The injury brought me to a specialist and I need to correct my default of pedaling with the outside of my foot and get a wider shoe. After this and other videos I am going to flats and 510s for a bit to see for myself. Keep it up Dylan!
I love how you make informative and scientific videos entertaining!
I like to be clipped in on my roadbike because it really helps me to stay focused and in the right position during longer periods of intense pedaling. On the other hand I always wear sneakers for comfort during casual rides with my touring bike and the idea of being clipped in on my MTB gives me anxiety. I never noticed any difference in efficiency, especially because there are so many other factors between the bikes like weight, rolling resistance, etc. Nice to see this being confirmed in the studies.
In my opinion when I switched to clipless I felt more scared riding my bike. The feeling that my legs are that locked in and when it comes to quickly getting them out, it doesn’t feel right. Also with clipless you need to adjust your cleats to proper fitting while flat you just move your foot back and forth. Another thing I noticed with clipless over the years is just how bad it is 99% of the time, it’s a pain to ride your bike clipping in and out over and over and makes cycling a hassle more than a joy. Flat pedals are great considering I don’t race or go for sprints
I switched to Schimano SPD on my mountain bike years back and once I got the setting it was a breeze to clip out and bunk a corner. TBH you just react from habit. Of course it is slower to get out of the pedal but if your not racing downhill, the climbing security and ability to lift the ass of the bike at will is great.
Nice video. As a long distance cyclist myself, there are several more benefits of good quality flat pedals that I’ve noticed. You can wear normal shoes which is nice if you bike someplace where you want to walk around. Cyclists who travel light will appreciate not carrying extra shoes. Flats are simpler, with fewer components which is nice for reliability when you’re far from any support system. Flats give you the ability to adjust the position of your feet, should they start to hurt and keep on riding. If you take a spill with flats, it’s super easy to recover from as you’re not clipped in. From my experience, I don’t recommend plastic pedals of any kind but instead, I recommend spending the extra on metal, mountain bike pedals that are wide with metal pins for grip as I have slipped off plastic pedals when they get wet when road riding.
Wait. What? What just happened? Mom!
I agree
Pin this
flat rider here on a road bike. clipless is ok if you're racing or riding in a control environment. on the streets where we get to share a road with cars, you can't afford to remain locked to a bike. you need to be able to ditch the bike and stand up if something unexpected happens. in a motorcycle course, they actually teach you to let the bike go if it's going down and not hold on to it. plus what will you do if the spring malfunctions and you fall and the light just turns green. you better hope there are responsible drivers who have seen you. but we do need shoes with solid, unbendable soles. jus two cents.
In general, flat pedals are just as good as clipless, but I’ve found that when grinding up really steep hills (like Canton Ave with a 37% grade) in an event like the Dirty Dozen in Pittsburgh, clipless really helps.
Thanks for making this. I've been cycling flat forever. I went clipless when I was a pup and it didn't make sense. It didn't seem that much efficient. To busy to back it up with science (too lazy to do the science I mean), but now you posted this, I win! Thank you!
I tried clipless for a while but had no confidence on my MTB. It felt dangerous. Much happier with flats but you do need firm soles for efficiency. Nice to know I'm not losing out using flats. Thanks for vid Dylan. :)
I am an xc racer and I use clipless pedals because I can sprint faster and I don’t get bounced off my bike when going though rough sections
The bouncing is not a problem when you are using the proper pedaling technique (heels down) and a proper flat pedal /shoe combination. The problem is that with flats when you go to a hard sprit or a steep climb your foot can go off. It takes lot of practice to master the sprint in race conditions on flats.
@@WintergardenPL You don’t see XC racers with flat pedals. You meant “DH”.
@@shannontrainer5857 no I didn't meant DH riders but also Xc riders. I should be more specific. I was referring to bouncing on rough terrain. Clipless pedals are obvious benefit to Xc where you often change cadence and sprint heavily. But on techy stuff not so anymore. Enduro, dh you often see flats. Both have their benefits and cons.
For my first 18 months of cycling, I was breaking a lot of left pedals (like 6 pairs). For unrelated reasons I tried SPD pedals about 2 years ago and I haven't broken a pedal since. My left leg is a CM longer than the right, and I think it was causing me to move my foot outward on the left pedal, essentially applying too much leverage on the outboard side. What I like about clipless pedals are how secure they make me feel in my footing.
I found it very hard to ride out of the saddle uphill on my road bike with flats because of the tendency of my feet to get out of position, and my subsequent fear of slipping off the pedal when trying to reposition them. Clipless pedals solved that problem beautifully. I wish I could post here the photo of my left leg covered in blood after slipping off my flat metal pedals on my 1993 mtb; the scars have never gone away.
This is exactly for me too. It is not about adding "free" speed, because at the end, power is power. However when it comes to foot placement stability and not having to think about repositioning your foot, clipless can not be beat.
Heck I would trade slight loss of efficiency if it means I am more comfortable on the bike.
I just like having my feet stay attached to the pedal when riding in my city. Roads in Montreal have more in common with the surface of the moon than roads. Also makes hopping obstructions a lot easier. I do like the funny looks I get for having MTB pedals on a "go fast" bike but SPDs are great for getting around in a congested city with ground up pavement. I have to wonder if flats are a better overall work out; your foot can move around more and presumably bring more muscles into action; sort of like free weights being a better workout than machine that isolates just one muscle group.
Cheers! I commute year round (Newfoundland), what can you do with clips I can't with my platforms? And yes clips make hefting the rear easier.
@@cbcsucks2205 There's nothing you can do with clips that you can't with platforms. Montreal's roads in many places are not in great shape thanks to our wet->freeze cycles in winter. I work in an industrial park where there are potholes large enough to fall into. When hitting rough terrain at speed clips keep my feet on the pedals instead of flailing about. Its really just a personal preference; I feel more secure with clips than loose. Newfoundland is lovely.
@@dereksauer8108 whereas I'm always going sideways downhill. Ride on!
I also use MTB pedals (Time ATACs) on my road bike. I prefer MTB shoes for general cycling (Toronto - roads suck here too as do drivers) and when you have to unclip and clip in a lot MTB pedals are easier since you don't have to flip the pedal. The shoes are better for walking around too - and since I'm an old guy with lots of skiing related knee issues - avoiding slips is important. The only give-up as far as I'm concerned is weight for the pedals and shoes - measured in ounces (or less than the weight of the average bowel movement! So regular use of Metamucil can even things up.)
Yep, Crank Bros on My road bike also!
I like foot retension (clipless, straps) because it keeps my feet much more stable and secure to my pedal when I'm riding at a high cadence. Also it makes me feel cool when I'm racing around.....
Did they factor in clip clopping from the bike shed to your office after the commute?
Sounding like a baby pony 😂
That freaking sound man.
Dylan, thanks for the honesty. While I acknowledge the benefits of proper shoes and a clipless system, I personally think shaming people who choose to ride in straps is wrong. The enormous hype around clipless systems reminds me of music store chains selling incredibly expensive music gear to people who are, at best, hobbyists and not pros. The aging, out-of-shape group that I ride with are getting fleeced on expensive shoes and pedals, and I routinely take them out on a sprint.
if anything, it should create some humility in the group ride that when someone shows up with flat pedals it's more about rider preference and isn't a big deal
Chris Capoccia that such a thing even has to be said is amazing. I got into cycling just over a year ago, and I have been stunned at the near-cultish devotion some cyclists have to questionable or eve refutable ideas. Clipless pedals, skinny tires, rim brakes, and even such trivia as whether to put your sunglasses over or under your helmet straps are all things that I have encountered both in person (bike shops, otter riders,etc) and online. And beyond the beliefs themselves is the orthodoxy that you are indirectly referring to. It’s not enough for riders to have their own preferences, they want others to do it their way as well. The other day my son, who rides a very nice bike (Trek FX Sport) with flat bars and flat pedals, passed another rider on a climb, and as he went by the other rider said “You’re kidding me. You’re wearing sneakers and don’t even have a real bike.” Just one example, but Phil Gaimon recently did a video in which he encouraged veteran riders not to patronize all the new riders who have started due to the pandemic if they didn’t have the right pedals or wear the right gear. Your comment just adds to the sense that some percentage of the cycling community are just assholes who like to put down others who do things differently. Not all, or even most, but enough to show up routinely in discussions about riding conventions.
Yep, so many make claims about clipless pedals. But I feel like it's the "new shiny part" syndrome. I've been riding flats and clipless for years. For a 300km ride I used my massive flat pedals from "pedalling dynamics" as I didn't want pressure point's in the shoe creating pain. I know that I wasn't going to be sower with flats, and can adjust position on the pedals to suit requirements - heel forward for low cadance climbing, heel back for high cadence spinning.
@@domdonald for climbing on tarmac, I'm not convinced, for off road stuff at almost zero cadence I can see the difference.
But the reality for the majority of road cyclists doing the weekly bunch ride at 150 watts avg? Those guys wouldn't experience any difference.
@@domdonald did you even watch the video? Or only pay attention to the backwards hat?
@@domdonald Yeah, I've felt the same thing. Punchy climbs to an extent, but accelerating through an intersection is so much better with clipless and I can much more easily pop up to 500-700 watts for a few seconds to get going. I'm also logging tons of miles, around 2K/mo., so it is nice to have a consistent bike fit locked in.
Thanks Dylan! I posed this possible topic a couple weeks ago in regards to using flats coming back from a broken ankle, then switching back to spd's and find no difference in power/HR. Interesting to see the science backs this up for steady state riding.
I think the bike fit element is super important here. Having your foot move around is like your saddle height and stance width constantly changing. Also sprinting on a flat pedal ABSOLUTELY sketches me out. Backhat Dylan is a legend as usual.
Interesting video. Thank you for looking into this subject with so much detail. I have never used lipless pedals. In the summer I love to cycle in my (closed toe) sandals. The up-stroke is there for efficient relaxation of the muscles. The pedals are cheap and it's awesome. The bicycle industry is good at marketing stuff that an average rider doesn't need.
I can ride three times as far when I clip in. When my quads get tired, I can switch out to hip flexors for a bit and vice versa. Being able to easily make use of more muscle groups, and alternating back and forth between those different groups has a synergistic effect on stamina. 15 miles on flat pedals and I'm done, but let me clip in and I can go 50-60 miles no problem.
That sounds like a big muscular imbalance to be fair.
Similar for me ー and faster commute
Your hamstrings must be as big as most people's torso.
You're weak though, 15 miles is short distance, and you're telling us that u can't last 15 miles when you're not clip. Maybe practice more
My critical thinking assignment including 4 academic articles is due next week, and this guy did all of these in a youtube video.
Great video. My experience after years of riding flats then years of riding clipless - consistent, comfortable foot position > all other benefits when riding clipless.
Before making the switch I would constantly be readjusting my foot position after every stop or slip and it often felt a little off. Afterwards my feet always feel comfortable as they are dialled in to the optimal position for me.
I found little to no performance benefit with the minor exception of a brief burst of power cresting a steep summit or some such, when I would very briefly pull up a lot more for a few pedal strokes. Other than that I can imagine max sprints are also that bit more controllable but I so rarely did that in my riding days on flats I couldn't say even that for sure.
2 other variables in there. People who have shorter legs vs. longer(femur) legs, shoe size and then crank length! I have short legs 30.5" inseam 165m cranks. My power is much more equal with the 165's vs 170's cranks where as the power is much more in the down stroke and very little pulling up with 170's! Nice job today I enjoy watching all your video's!
I ride flats exclusively these days though I have spent years on clipless. Changing foot position is AWESOME on long rides to switch up muscles being used or to avoid cramps. In situations where you might need to bail flats win as well. I'm way more towards the slow pedal up, shred down end of the spectrum than the 'serious cyclists' Dylan is talking about though. When I was doing more XC oriented endurance riding on less gnarly terrain I did like having clipless.
Bingo. Had a coworker shatter his arm biking. I asked was he hit by a car. He said no, his feet got stuck on the pedals and he tipped over and "crashed" on the sidewalk. Most useless invention of all time if you are doing anything besides a legit bike race.
Yes, totally depends on riding situation and style. For me, hardtail I use clipless, full-suspension I use flats, not so much for the efficiency gains, but primarily so I don't get bucked off the pedals if a feature catches me by surprise. I also like the ability to bow my feet when needed on flats
I think clipless will become more relevant the more powerful a rider is; obviously pro sprinting is not going to be ideal on even the best flats. However, for regular riders like myself, going back onto flats (decent ones with a good platform and pins for grip) has been a revelation; I'm just as fast (or slow!) as before but find it much more comfortable. Clipless pedals are much more limiting in where you can position your feet so if that doesn't include the ideal position for a given rider then it's not really doing them any favours.
Interesting vid as usual.
6:20 is truth.There are different pedalling styles for different situations. Efficient cruising, acceleration, sprinting (whether racing or just to make a traffic light), hill climbing, getting traction of bumps and humps, . On a long ride I will deliberately vary my technique to avoid fatigue -- sometimes exerting effort on the forwards & backwards parts of the stroke.
Flat plastic pedals are slippy when wet. MTB pedals with pins have great grip except when pulling the foot upwards.
Also when pulling up, you mentioned that the muscle used to bend the knee is weak, so power gains from clipping in and pulling up are weak. But when I stand up on the pedals and move my knee up like I am a kickboxer trying to knee somebody in the chest, I get a lot of power to spin the crank. This is a great video, and worthy of a follow-up.
I was doing the 2013 TT and i went from flat pedals to clipless and lost 1.30 sec on my time and at first i thought it was just me same thing the next week.so i went back to flat pedals and my time went back and I finished 3 in championship
I noticed a huge improvement when changing from any old random sneaker to running shoes with tall arch support. Knee tracking is now parallel and pedaling comfort is great.
I’m only considering clipless pedals and shoes to avoid slipping when riding in the wet.
One use of clipless are technical, rocky, rooty climbs, where you need to pull up over roots and slippery rocks. They definitely help in those cases. I am sure studies will average out these low frequency events. Another is while descending, sometimes the bike gets into a precarious situation and the bike “bucks” you off the pedals. This can lead one missing the pedals and crashing. Again, a low frequency event, but significant in the impact on a rider.
Interesting how different we all are, I'm exactly the opposite! :-)
I prefer flats when riding technical stuff, gives me more confidence, especially climbing over rocks/roots, knowing that I can keep going to the very last moment and easily put my foot down at any time and from any angle. Once I learned the proper technique ('heavy heels, light hands' etc.) I also prefer them going downhill over uneven ground, since with proper pedals and dedicated shoes I stay on the there even during the rough stuff (and the occasional buck).
"Bucking"? Maybe you have too much rebound in your shock, too much air in your tires...
There's an interesting video out there from Jeff Kendall-Weed. He goes through all the serious accidents he had. Of the half-dozen he can remember, 4 were on clipless and two on flats. He alternates between the two systems. Doesn't prove that clipless are more dangerous, but no way they're safer.
oldkayakdude most competitive MTB racers, Enduro, DH and XC ride with clips. I still ride flats on DH or when I am learning something nee and clips during races and training. By the way, Jeff Lenowski (one of the best trials riders in the world), normally rides with clips, with the exception of when he is doing trials. I have ridden with him several times.
@@farrier53 I have no shock on my road bike lol...you can still hit something and get thrown around a bit. I've definitely hit some sensitive parts on my top tube while standing up and losing pedal contact because I hit a big crack or pothole.
Interesting study! I have been using clip-less so long that I have not considered giving flat pedals any love. It very well may be worth it on shorter non-technical rides. Thanks for sharing.
I was interested to see a few tour divide riders using flats. I guess they wouldn't be using them across a 2700 mile race if the efficiency weren't somewhat comparable.
I don’t completely disagree but from what I can tell about the tour divide riders is that they aren’t exactly the most powerful riders but they have insane endurance and are just kind of crazy. I don’t think they care too much about power they probably care more about comfort for a 2-3 week endeavor.
@@spaaceman8908 Some Tour Divide riders definitely generate a ton of power. Especially those that are racing and going for records or wins. Mostly they ride flats because TD has a shitload of hike-a-bike even in a year with good weather (more if there's a lot of snow in the Rockies) Hiking with 5.10s or some other flat pedal shoe is way better than hiking in traditional MTB shoes.
@@TheDavidjakeson I mean a tour divide rider won’t be putting out over 500 watts if they are pacing themselves well. I also think the weather factor could make clipping in suck so it would make more sense to go with flats.
I've been road cycling for a few years and have road clippers pedals most of that time. Recently I got a used specialized allez sport. The previous owner had put flat pedals on it. I had planned on taking the clippers pedals off my old bike and put on it. Now I'm a city rider and have to stop a lot at lights and etc and deal with traffic on my rides. I am finding that the flat pedals are a lot easier deal with then the clipless one in my riding situation. I should also add I just ride for fun and fitness.
I have been watching you for awhile now Dylan and I have to say how great it's been to see your skin improve over that time. Now your handsomeness can really shine.
I can easily believe this, except for sprinting. I'd really like to see a study on the sprint output with and without clipless pedals
This is pretty interesting, but I've been using MTB shoes for commuting and longer rides for over 10 years. I like that the sole doesn't flex, there are no shoelaces to worry about, and I can use the same pair for years without destroying my normal shoes.
LOL, next you will be telling me NOT to shave my legs more often than I mow my yard....NOT GONNA HAPPEN
The Win Tunnel (the Specialized series) will back you up on that one. ; )
Males who save their legs... its embarrassing.
“ Captain you cannot break the laws of physics ! “ Great video as usual. I’ll be sticking to my clip less pedals as they also contain a power meter.
I'm a casual cyclist and the thought of having my feet stuck to the bike terrifies me.
And it should. Heard of people falling over at stops because their feet are stuck. Coworker shattered his arm a few years ago and spent entire summer in a cast. I never heard of this phenomenon until he told me that he was in a bike accident and he explained it to me and I'm like wtf? I want my feet to be free 100% of the time in case I need to stop. When a baby runs out in front of you and your bike brakes won't stop you, your feet will... unless they are locked into the pedals.
I'm a frequent cyclist that uses cheap bikes (and even then they still get stolen frequently anyway), and while I'm not afraid of having my feet stuck to the pedals, I dislike the increased cost and decreased convenience on multiple levels. It seems ridiculous to me that anyone would use bike shoes unless they're professional track/road racers.
I like to be able to stop somewhere, go for a bit of a walk etc. Not seeing much appeal of clipless, never say never though. I do like to go decent distances and will consider things that might make that more efficient or comfortable but try to avoid getting sucked into consumerism as far as cycling goes.
@@xinaesthetic I ride 70+ km often. You don't need clip less pedals to go anywhere. There's more cons that's pros.
I'm the opposite since I've had them, means I never have to worry about my feet coming unstuck when I hit a bump or are putting down the power whilst standing.
When I am grinding up a steep climb and cadence is low, pulling up helps me a lot. It does make a lot of difference. I'd like to see the actual parameters of the study. Stiff shoes are important too. At least for me. I get hot spots when I had cheaper entry level shoes.
Best part of clipless pedals is no more getting hit in the shin when your foot slips 😄
But, your bike ends on top you when go down because you can't separate yourself from your bike
And you don’t just tip over when you mess up practicing your track stands. This may or may not have happened to me yesterday...
@@antoniop1968 it happened to me before i was following a car then all of the sudden it stopped in front of me, i couldn't get out of clip right away i landed on my left side ... nothing serious though, just a bruised ego.
@@Robertlavigne1 that's why on busy streets using clipless pedals i refrain from doing track stands, but when im using flat pedals its fun and i do it a lot... easy to dismount in case i lost my balance.
Shin smacks with clipless hurt so much
I remember seeing a study a few years ago where it said that the leg muscles used in cycling worked most efficiently when the work:recovery ratio was about 1 to 5, ie they were only working about 1/6 of the time. That might work out at somewhat more than 60 degrees of rotation in practice since you don't instantly go from zero to full power and off again, there's a bit of building up and down. But it does suggest that the action mostly happens between the 12 and 6 o'clock positions with relatively little benefit to be gained from 'pulling up', since if you do this you are depriving your muscles of recovery time and making the whole action less efficient.
It might be, as suggested at 9:30, that the main benefit of going clipless is that it at least keeps your foot in the right fore-and-aft position for maximum efficiency - but then you could say that for old-school clips and straps too. (It also more or less compels you to wear something with a good stiff sole, rather than £10 supermarket deck shoes or whatever you wear just to pop down to the shops...)
Clipless pedals keep my feet on the right spot the whole time, so I don't have to waste my energy on re-positioning my feet on the flat pedals throughout the whole ride.
exactly
When I climb and pull I notice that I run out of energy significantly faster and I tend to cramp up. So I go back to pushing only.
Maybe I need to train to pull but I doesn't strike me as a possibility to gain an advantage.
Yeah that pulling when climbing only works for short durations for me as well. But it's still nice to use on that very steep section to keep some speed before you go back to grinding push-only :-)
The hard pulling is something I reserve for standing while climbing. That said, if you can perfect circles, you'll find your speed will increase. Does tend to wear your legs down faster though, so more training is required to build those muscles. ;)
1) I suspect pulling up on the pedal is not a great idea for the muscles and tendons around the knee even if there was a performance benefit. I had a pain on the backside of my knee that disappeared when I went to flats.
2) Float is fine for road but for mtb I want a firm position that I can readjust depending on the slope angle and terrain.
1) just because you have clipless doesn't mean you have to pull (and you can pull through much of the same angles with flats)
2) clearly personal preference, glad you like what you've got
I like to be clipped while MTB bc during rough descents, I'll ALWAYS know where the pedals are... right underneath my feet.
I thought I was going to like them on the road bike but I kept getting knee pain... so I had to go back to flats.
Might be that being clipped in is putting your feet in a bad position that you usually compensate for by shifting your feet around. Maybe look at the crank length, q-factor or saddle height compared to your trail bikes
Speedplay frogs, 40 degrees of float, your knees will thank you...
@@bikebudha01 thanks! Will look into it. I actually got fitted two days ago, the seat got raised about an inch and cleats aligned... Took it for a 15 mile ride and big change.
Doesn't more float on the cleats mean more difficult to release them?
@@jzamudiorn Proper fit is everything. It's the best money you can spend on a road/gravel bike. Will solve 99% of your knee, back, everything pain. Will also make your more comfortable and faster.
you mean the old dudes waddling and clacking around the coffee shop Saturday morning are doing it just to annoy me?
Yes
"You know it !!!"
I said I was sorry. sheesh.
My primary goal is to annoy. I don't even like coffee, but the annoyance is as sweet as sugar.
@@brianwright9514 EVIL !!
Just had my flat peddles delivered, will switch them with the clipless tonight. My reasoning is purely due to safety on the roads, I thought with practice and use clipless would be safe but now I don’t think so, too many unpredictable things happen, all it takes is a pedestrian too absorbed with their mobile phone stepping in the road, then your off the bike and then it only takes a bus behind you and your as dead as a dodo. I’ll save the clipless for the track only, just not worth the risk.
Having ridden for almost a year on flat pedals on my road bike, when I finally switched to clipless I felt like kicking myself for waiting so long. It's made a HUGE difference in what I'm able to output on the bike. I've done group rides with flats and with clipless. The only time I go flats is when I'm just doing a lazy ride with a friend. If I'm gonna ride for myself (which generally means I'm looking to just get going and go as far as I can) I'm going clipless every damn time.
I use both : clipless on my road and flats on everything else. Clipless I generally will ride about 1 mph faster but only because I can peddle smoother overall.
Both are great though.
I run flats on both my bikes, gravel and enduro.
A friend of my aunts got paralyzed from the waist down when they couldn't unclip in a crash. Beyond that the wisest thing anyone has ever heard is flat pedals win medals /s
I crashed because I slipped off flat pedals when I went down a 2m drop on my hardtail. This wouldn’t have happened with clipless ones.
I recently upgraded my MTB to flat pedals and an oval chain ring. Holy crap that combination is the most significant improvement I have ever noticed. Would be interesting to see what you think about oval chain rings.
Feel that pull helps give quads a break at times. Especially longer climbs
I've never felt the need to pull up on the pedals,I still don't get being attached
for people who cycle for a workout rather than racing/sport it does engage more muscle groups to pull up on the pedals even if it doesn't increase efficiency or output. That's why I use them personally.
I'm curious what various people think the definition of "serious cyclist" is. 100km per week mountain bikers? 50 km per week city commuters? only road racers or non-race "competitive" cycling?
I'm a 50 km per week city commuter and I don't consider myself a "serious cyclist".
I ride about 350km a week and I finally consider myself as serious cyclist
Flats for me on my XC mtb and indoor trainer with 5/10's on my feet. It all comes down to personal preference, I tried clips for awhile but I like comfort and confidence I get from riding with flats. I kind of see it like my dropper post - I'll take the weight penalty if it makes me more confident on the bike. The one thing I question on the various studies is how familiar the riders are with either system, meaning someone who always rides clips and then has to wear flats for a test is likely not going to do well with the flats and vice versa. I remember watching a GCN video on the clips vs. flats debate and they clearly had their foot placement completely wrong for the flat pedals (should be more of a mid sole placement for the flats). I also agree the tests tend to be limited and typically don't take into consideration different riding conditions (climbs, descents, technical features, etc.). I recognize the difficulty with getting results with so many variables.
Is there a difference in time exhaustion? VO2 makes sense I guess, but comfort probably plays a bigger role in larger role in time to exhaustion.
But since comfort is quite subjective and depends on a lot of factor beyond morphology, it might not be a deciding factor.
BHD was on point today! 🤣
Thanks for this informative video. I use flat pedals and will continue doing so as I don't take cycling that serious and more than half my cycling is commuting.
I do however notice some discomfort on longer weekend rides that may be related to the lack o stiffness from my shoe/pedal setup.
I like my clipless because I don't have to focus on where my foot is on the pedal. That's it ... I'm lazy and just want to go.
2 points (both anecdotal) that I would make. 1. For me, when I pull up with my clip-less pedals is very situational. When I am trying to catch someone on a flat, or when my cadence is slowed to a grind on a steep hill are examples that come to mind. Now, these aren't moments where efficiency are that important, but a benefit is still had. 2. I have a 25 year old huffy that I am converting into a decent zwift bike. I did a few rides on the flat pedals that came with the bike, and I can tell you, that when your feet fly off the pedals in high intensity moments, like sprints, or high gear, gear shifts, the moments while you gather your footing (and your senses), are extremely inefficient. I'll keep my clip-less (or at the very least toe clips) thank you very much.
It triggers me to no end that something with clips is called clipless. English, go home you're drunk.
That’s because the precursor to them were called “toe clips”
@@arthurjackson3287 we can call the new ones "full clips"
See, the old ones just grabbed the toe in the front...like a paper clip. Clipless attach at the bottom...no “toe clips”
Start a movement and cancel it 😝 It was 'Toe Clips' then 'Clipless' .. maybe it should be changed to 'Clip-in' or 'cleated' pedals ?
its not because of english. Clips was taken. It clips in but without clips. It is logically correct in some sense