Nissan Leaf 40kWh 2018 - Optimum charging percent and uncovering the temperature gauge.
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- Опубліковано 28 кві 2018
- I'll be running the battery from fully charged to 5% and check on the battery every 10% to see what temperature it goes up by. To see what is the best SOC (state of charge) to start charging the car.
Also in this episode, we'll be cooking the battery to try to decipher the elusive temperature gauge and try and make sense out of it.
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Music
Artist: The 126ers
Track: Summer Love
Genre: Pop | Calm
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Hi Lemon-Tea Leaf
51 is indeed the next step.. at 55 you get the turtle and a screen warning saying "EV System Hot, slow down".
thank you Anders Thorup, I've pinned your comment so others can read it. Thanks for letting us all know! :)
It's pretty similar to 24kWh Leaf battery bars. But old Leaf hardly did anything to keep battery below 50*C.
What a really helpful vide. Once again, big thanks.
Another great video. Well done mate.
As always James, great details and synopsis. Will certainly help for trip planning! :)
Thanks hopefully do some more test to get the optimum temp for long trip to say Nottingham or Silverstone for the Fully Charged Show :)
A great video great work regarding the battery very useful
Excellent info.
Thank you for your test!
my pleasure, I want to make sure people know what they're buying into when choosing the Nissan Leaf 40kWh
Hey James, thanks so much for this video .. loved it, and sooo helpful for us LEAF2 owners petrified by #Rapidgate. I'm a Arsenal fan, and watched this in preference to the Man Utd match, not sure if that says more about Arsenal or me? But I was crying with laughter over the "should I get so excited about watching a temperature gauge?" Don't worry mate, I was excited with you, and this vid was really informative, entertaining, and will help me plan my longer journeys knowing that 20%+ sweet spot for the Chademo. Thanks again LEAF geek brother!
Aw man that means a lot to me that I'm more important than 22 guys kicking a ball!!! Deffo us geek need to keep the information flowing like football 😲
James, many thanks for an extremely informative video. I noticed just before you finished videoing that Leaf Spy showed the charge rate had fallen to 38.5kW when the Leaf’s SOC gauge showed 65% with a range of 91 miles and a battery temperature of 46 C. It appears that charge throttling was kicking in to restrict further temperature rise in the battery. Pity you stopped charging and videoing at that point as it would have been very interesting to see the further effect on charge rate, battery temperature, and time to reach, say, 80% SOC if charging had continued.
But extremely interesting never the less.
I tend to forget to do things due to it being late and me wanting to get to bed XD but that's a very good point. I do have a video for the drop in charge rate but not temperature coming up at some point. The issue with seeing the temperature go up to % of battery is that if the SOC starts at 5% it would cook the battery way quicker than if it started at 30% SOC so it would need a few videos at different SOC to figure out how the battery reacts. I'll think of a way to maybe do both for 1 video but that'll take some time to run the battery to those level just to test and over an hour each to see :D
Lemon-Tea Leaf: Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply criticism - you commented in the video that you needed to get to bed which I fully appreciate. I was merely commenting on what appeared to be the onset of charge throttling and that further measurement would have been interesting in this context. Next time, maybe?
Ian Mathieson not at all, if I took criticism I wouldn't have put a smiley face at the end of the message. I think it's a great idea and its good to have a different point of view that I didn't spot. :) keep the questions and ideas coming I'd say!
Great video James. Very interesting as I have a 2.zero and your videos do make me laugh also. Keep up the good work.
Malcolm Maclean Thanks for watching and I make myself laugh watching it back also... I'm easily entertained.
Nicely done. New leaf owner. Thanks.
Thanks for watching :)
Thanks for another great video not long now till I get my new leaf 16 long days this will help when to charge 🏴
ooh, so only maybe 3-4 videos of mine before you get your car :) hope it's helping with the wait
All your videos are of a great help love how excited you get when things happen that you have predicted
Hello James and thank you very much for taking the time and effort to make this vid. and provide all this info. It is a real eye-opener to me to see (if I understand it correctly) that if the same load is applied to the battery, it's propensity to increase in temp is significantly higher as the battery has less and less charge. I'm assuming that with active battery temp management this is managed out ? Having seen this vid as well as many others, EV's without some form of active cooling & heating of the battery are not for me - it would be too easy to damage it.
Yes that's correct, with a low state of charge the battery will heat up much quicker the tipping point seems to be below 20% on the display. I have a feeling that the Leaf 2018 will have a better battery life than the Leaf30 as the TMS on that didn’t seem to throttle back as much so has higher % of battery that degraded quickly. But it does mean longer charge time for the Leaf 2018, it’s a double edge sword.
P.S. You didn’t link the video in your comments :)
Sorry James, don't understand your PS comment. My observations appear to be linked to the video ?????
Sorry read your comment wrong I though it said "Have you seen this video"
Another great video, would be interesting to see what the temperature on the old 24kwh Leaf left hand gauge reads. As I said earlier could very well be that this always happened just new Leaf documents it more. Maybe see if Cezar would let us borrow a 24kwh to prove or disprove this.
Jamie McMurtrie I think you might be right, also its use to take me around 20mins to charge the 24kWh Leaf to from 3 bars to 10-11 bars (I think) so even if it starts slowing down and would take 35mins or so and you wont really feel the difference. Its a matter for scaling so 45 mins becomes 1:15mins which is a bigger difference.
Air cooled battery needs exactly this type of attention. If treated right it's simplicity is cool.
Awesome video man! I'm so jealous you are able to do these tests, I live for those kinds of drives. I found it interesting that the car's range was holding steady at 126 miles of range going 60mph. Is that normal, or were you going up hill the majority of the drive? When you got the car down to 5% I already knew your battery would be cooked after your charged. Thanks for figuring out the temp gauge temps, very good video!
Lots of hill climbing on the way from Newcastle to Edinburgh and the cold weather doesn't help the miles/kWh for sure. Its getting a lot better with the warmer weather now. think the best I've got on the same trip is 145 (130+15 GOM) miles
Great video James! Love the spread sheets !
Question is overall WE SHOULDN'T have to be checking temps in our evs and planning stops based on temps of the battery!
Just planning a rapid charge stop on miles covered is enough for most folk.
Throwing in planning for % left and planning around that ..shortens the range back to probably a 24kwh leaf !
So what's the point of the bigger battery if you can't use all of it for a longer trip !
We all love the stats and it's good knowledge to understand what's going on in the 40kwh pack , but the 'normal ' ev drivers just want to drive from point A to point B without any head scratching !
Nissan still need to sort this out ASAP
Great video James and I look forward to meeting you at FC live in Silverstone!
Best regards Jonathan
Totally agree, having to manage this like the starship enterprise is what I'd expect from a second-hand ICE car, not a brand new EV. Looks like my next EV I'll make sure it has ATM.
James, don't know if I shared the information but after initially deciding not to get a 2018 leaf I ended up getting one anyway. I am planning to make a long trip to pick up a wind turbine I have purchased on Ebay, 250 miles each way to be exact (Preston to Norwich). Not a journey I would normally make, but I feel inclined to do it just because I want to experience the worst case scenario. I hope it will help me plan better for summer holidays etc. Think I will be setting of on Friday at lunch time, and I will try to document it and get it on my channel.
Taht would be great hit me on twitter if you get the video up. I think more real-world test instead of theory's and general guesswork is the best way to figure out how to best manage the battery in the 40 for long distances. I know they say its something like 1% of the leaf drivers but hey we 1% need to know what the car can/can't do :)
I have just uploaded a video explaining what I am planning to do. ua-cam.com/video/MhVCpDZFOeQ/v-deo.html
Thanks James. City Planning. There used to be a joke around Lincolnshire County Council, saying that there is an annual award scheme for the most ridiculous road scheme. It's very tempting to believe it.
One thing to remember about batteries in general is that their Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) rises as the cells discharge. At the same time, their output voltage reduces. So to produce the same output power, it has to supply a higher current. Since power in Watts = I^2R, the square of the current times the ESR, progressively more heat is generated in that resistance inside the battery. The ESR also rises with battery age, so as it becomes older, it will also produce more heat than it did when new at the same state of charge. It follows then, that as the battery discharges you need to work it less and less to minimise it’s temperature. Charging that same battery is also affected by ESR. So a flat or old battery will heat up more for the same total charge power than will a newer or more fully charged battery. As the battery approaches full charge, heating again begins to rise because of chemical reactions in the cell. So the optimum maximum and minimum charge range may well be 20% to 80%, or 30% to 70%, as many people postulate.
RWBHere thanks! I've learned more about physics in the late 3 months than I ever did at school 🤣
The hottest my battery has been that I've seen was 81 F, and it was right at the half way mark on the temperature gauge in the instrument cluster.
That sound about right from the reading then :) if you hit pass 97°f it would have gone up one notch.
It would be interesting to see the temp differences increased each 10% based on starting your next day 100% at 26.1 degrees vs the starting at the colder 15.8 degrees...perhaps more relevant for those that do a 9-5 mon-fri long run
I've already started these test so hopefully be the next video that gives up :)
Fantastic video, thanks so much. As for D V D s I have a lovely 7.1 home cinema. with a 80inch electric screen. And honestly Blu Rays are the way to go. Down loads can't beat the picture quality of Blu Rays. Even D V DS I think are better thean down loads. And you do not get any extras with streeming.
David Fox That is very true but I'm still on an old 1080p Sony 42" telly and all I have in Edinburgh at the moment is an old 21" 720p TV. I'll upgrade at Christmas so maybe I'll be picking up some mirror disk for entertainment then :)
Great hope you enjoy
A standard def DVD with 1990s technology is better than Ultra HD streamed?
I think so because if you are playing the audio load through your home cinema system. The noise it makes when you lose the internet connection is not one i would like to hear again. Blu Ray is favourite of course. You can get ultra H D Blu Rays which are the best way to watch. Much better then streaming. a good way is to make a comparison with the same film and the same scene. One on H D Blu and one streeming. See which you prefer.
2014 Leaf:
3rd bar appears when one of the sensors reads 5*C (this limit slightly fluctuates according to exterior temperature, so if it is very cold, bar holds on for ~1 extra degree, so not +5 but +6).
4th bar appears when one sensors reads 15*C
5th bar appears if one reads at least 25*C.
3rd bar DISappears when last sensor dropped below -10*C. I think 2nd bar appears at -5*C, not sure (haven't seen the moment).
I've seen single bar only once. It's just slightly below -10*C, it's not -15*C, as there heater comes on (or doesn't, in case of 2011 Leaf).
I'm absolutely sure lower end quesses are not correct :D
I mean your 3 4 bar.
Hi James great video as usual. Do you know if anyone has done a drive-rapid-drive-granny video yet? I'm just thinking about a holiday trip to a destination 250-300 miles away (1 rapid) but with no destination charging, hence then an overnight granny charge. Would the temps in the morning allow a reasonable first day of holiday eg 100 miles day trip or something.
I think the temps would go quite high - prob over 50 with that rapid and 2 driving legs and then I'm wondering if the granny would keep temps high rather than let it cool at bit. Whereas you looked like you lost 20 degrees or so overnght..
Ooh a granny charge... I don't think it'll affect the temp to much it should still drop as it's pulling such a small amount. I might be able to do a test in June with this scenario. We'll have to see.😄
Nice video. One "rule" that seems to be revealed is that temp rise 1C every 10Miles @ 60mph
tucsonor nice one! Its great you're is looking at this from a different angle. Thanks for sharing what you spotted :)
I know, might be to much asking for, but can you share the leafspy logfile from this trip with me? Or any other leafspy log file from one of your trips.
First off.. Thank you for using measurements I easily understand so that I don't have to research the conversions ^.^ Now, are you using ECO and B mode? or standard D and Eco?
TriXie Kat I normally have it on D eco but was told that it doesn't affect the ProPilot. Sound like another test to me 🤣. I find having both mile/km or °c/ °f makes it much easier for all as everyone uses different combination of both. I'm a miles+°c person. So when ever I see km or °f my eyes goes 😵
Thanks for doing the testing. It's confirmed the point that as the battery % drops to very low, the heat generated increases. But it is surprising that the gauge on the screen changes differently above/below 36C. Looking forward to your CHAdeMO test. Are you going to make all the data results available once you've got them as a 'rough reference', or are you just leaving them in your videos?
Currently on the video. Do you have a suggesting where to store them? I don't mind people screen grabbing and sharing the data post them on forum etc.
Possibly put them in a dropbox folder or google drive. Probably the easiest way and then you could add a link to the file in the description.
Think I'll go with Google Drive as I had something on my Dropbox and it got blocked for 48h because it was shared to much.
So what does this experiment mean?
What temperature will the battery shut down.
At what temperature will the car stop or go to safe mode.
Whats the highest safe battery temperature.
The list goes on, I love the car but its worrying battery wise!
On Nissan quick start guide its just says
"If the battery temperature reaches the red
zone 1 , quick charging is not allowed and
the power limitation mode will be triggered. "
I think it'll still charge but a much reduce rate. so that would be around 51°c+
on page 18
owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/LEAF/2018/2018-LEAF-quick-reference-guide.pdf
Did you charge again the next morning? What was the battery temperature after it had a rest. Since I got leaf spy mine hasn't got above 16 but it's a relatively short journey (18 miles) and I tend to stick to about 60mph.
after 8 hours it was down by around 20°c also someone else mentioned at 60 you gain 1°c every 10 miles so you would have only gained 1.8°c :)
Shiply in the UK has new delivery tasks every few seconds, Nimber is too late to the party. Many Shiply tasks wont suit you but precious guitars and fluffy kittens might.
I don't think with my dodgy back I'll be lifting any couches even if they did fit in the Leaf :D but thanks for the info so many things we don't know about the normal web never mind the dark one :P
Like the video found it very interesting. I’m a bit confused by your temperature readings from LeafSpy. Isn’t the reading the top of the inner red sector. You seemed to be using the top number of the scale.
I should have explained that the top temperature is actually the T1 temp the bottom is T2 and the middle is T3 from the non-temp Icon. Just i like the temp icon option better. so it's not the Max/Current/Minimum.
The reduction in heating per 10% decrements maybe due to the fact you drove into the night and the outside temperature dropped, increasing the air cooling effect.
Great video BTW.
You could be right the temp being at a more steady pace sounds more likely if the temperature didn't dip towards the end of the night.
Is the temperature increase slowing down or is it because you are doing less than 10%each time ie when leaf spy says you have done a full 10% is the temperature drops consistent. If the speed of charge is based on cars temperature that suggest you should charge between 20-25% according to the car and charge no higher than 80 -85% as it's slows again as the battery gets near capacity... This should give you the fastest charging possible
Ah yes I think you're right, glad someone is paying attention :D The other day i charged from 23%-71% and the temp was from 23°c upto 34° so that means I could have done another rapid at 40+kW if i kept the temp down or the same.
so what speed should you do so the temp drops between charges or is that not possible.Love the video
I'm actually on the road now doing that test so you'll have to wait for the next installment of CHAdeMO roulette! 🤣
I don't get it. At 45.4 degrees C the charge rate was still 46 kW. It doesn't seem to decrease charge rate that quickly. Is it dependent on the starting temp for a charge? Will it delay decreasing the rate if you are already charging? In which case it would make sense to delay rapid charging until you are at a low battery like now. Ever get an answer as to why the battery SOC seems to be off by 10%? My Zoe battery (unfortunately when I needed it) was spot on at 0%. The speedo was also very accurate, always indicating exactly 2 km/h too high.
The charge rate depends on the starting temp, if I stopped the charge at 45.4°c then I would expect the charge to pick up from the new temp so it would drop to around 25kW (34:17 chart)
I think the leaf holds back the 1% every 10% so that when you run to zero you still have 10% of battery to reach your charge point in case of any diversions, I dont think its a bad thing bit like the ICE cars still running on fumes when it says the tank is empty.
So isn't that an argument for longer sustained rapid charges (if you want higher rate) from an empty battery instead of multiple shorter ones? At least, that was your suggestion / theory, right?
Yes that is true but If you charge the battery around 20-30% (ideally 30%) then it'll stop the battery heating up to a point where the next rapid charge is much slower due to higher temperatures. I would charge as high as possible just to get the distance in so you can cool the battery down if possible. So at 5% The temp could rise to 48°c @90% but at 30% it should only rise to around say 36°c @90% these examples are just my best guess from what I know so far. so if you want to go the long distance it's better to charge before the SOC is to low it'll generate to much heat.
Got it, thanks for the guesswork. Hope to experiment myself in two weeks when I get my Leaf Zero edition delivered.
if you're just doing 1 rapid you should always pull 43-45kW unless your on the autobahn and drove it like you stole it :D
Does Nissan mention this in their manual?
on page 18 is the only thing about temperature no actual figures:
owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/LEAF/2018/2018-LEAF-quick-reference-guide.pdf
Thanks for the reply =)
Hi James. Why is the battery temp rising as you are discharging and driving. Surely the battery temp should decrease. You are driving in 10c outside air temp with passively cooled batteries yet the battery temps are rising constantly. I thought driving the car in cool air would decrease battery temp.
I suspect that the battery will heat up to an optimal temperature of what the car is doing. A bit like when you have your phone on playing a game it will heat up to a specific temp depending on how hard you work the CPU.
As for passive cooling the battery seems to be incased in its own bubble within the car so the outside and cabin temp wont affect it as much.
Cheers James. Hopefully summer temps of 20 to 25c won’t affect the battery temps too much then.
My next temperature related video should be interesting as I'm going to CHAdeMO the battery before heading off to see if I'm correct about the optimal sweet spot of the battery temp being around 22-24°c or if it'll just keep rising and I'm completely on the wrong tracks :)
It is absolutely normal for a battery to heat up while in use.
NameNaameNameeNaamee: Laws of Physics. Drawing current at a constant speed generates heat in the battery at a constant rate assuming internal resistance remains constant. So if rate of generation of heat exceeds the rate at which heat is lost from the battery to its surroundings, the battery temperature will rise, not fall. The battery temperature rise will only cease and the temperature remain constant once the heat is lost as fast as its generated. This is why active battery cooling is needed if the battery temperature is to stabilise at a sufficiently low temperature that charge throttling is to be avoided. Without active cooling, the only means available to limit the temperature rise is to reduce the rate at which heat is generated by reducing the charge current, which is what Nissan have chosen to do in preference to incorporating active battery cooling which would have added to the vehicle price.
what happen if you get to red line, is it bad for the battery?
The car would start throttling the accelerator to stop it heating up any more. Also it'll slow down charging speed to keep the temp in check. The battery doesn't like to be 40°c+
@@LemonTeaLeaf that means protection for the battery is working if you get to red lines?
@@dumitrulazar2487 yes that's correct as it doesn't have liquid cooling system for the battery.
Why does it take so long to cool down? once parked up and off i would assume it would cool down pretty quickly
For an encased battery I thought it cool down fairly quickly, if we say 12 hours instead of the 8 It would have been down to 18°c which is a good starting temp for another long trip. Also I think the higher the Temp the quicker it would drop. I could be wrong but that'll will hopefully be in my next video.
I would want to know whats using the battery to keep its temp up, as its air cooled i'd assume it would drop to ambient temp within an hour. Staying warm means something is using/draining battery. Anyway, keep up the good work. I'm very interested in this new leaf though don't have any way of charging at home so would be relying completely on the local tesco charge points.
Andrew McCoy: The battery weighs around 200 kg. Thats a lot of mass to cool down so inevitably it takes some time. Imaging building a stack of bricks with a weight of 200 kg, then encasing it in a steel box and heating the entire mass to 46 C before letting it cool. Its fairly obvious it will take some hours to cool to, say, 25 C. And this is still about 15 C warmer than the ambient temperatures during James’ test.
It's not actually air cooled as nothing is pass to the battery case that's airtight and enclosed in its own bubble. so it's just cooling like if you left a coal burning out in a room with no air circulation. If you're using it for short trips or trips no longer than 250+ miles then I wouldn't worry too much about rapid charging as I rapid charge 2-3 times every weeks at the moment :)
What Ian Mathieson said^^^ :D
I was watching to see how many miles you got at 60 mph. Nissan is giving 3000 dollars off Msrp as a promotion with the electric companies in the USA .
What did you think of the mileage? It is a lot of hills on this trip so on the flat I would expect over 4miles/kWh. So 145 mile on a good day. Do you think it'll fit your needs?
Lemon-Tea Leaf it looks like it would work for 99 percent of the trips I do.
that is some shitty thermal management. its cold out! keeping the pack at a steady temp should be zero challenge