Nissan Leaf 2018 - Can you make your own Thermal Management System with 2 USB fans & a USB battery?
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Nissan Leaf 2018 - Try to cool the battery down with 2 USB desktop fans and a portable battery by blowing air down the battery maintenance hatch. bad idea or genius plan? Also, talk about the "Eco Bar" and how to use it to your advantage when trying to keeping the battery cool.
USB Fans:
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Ankey Battery Pack (older model in the video):
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Channels mentioned:
Plug Life Television • Can you swap an EV's b...
e-NV200 Adventures • Nissan 2018 e-NV200 40...
James and Kate / james0852
James Cooke / @jamescookevlogs
Electrified Journeys Japan / @electrifiedjourneys
As a few people have asked and it seems right to share with everyone the charging sheet I've been using is located here:
Google Drive:
drive.google.c...
Dropbox:
www.dropbox.co...
*Disclaimer all information in this sheet is a guide for long journey's in the Nissan Leaf 40kWh to help maintain and keep the temperature down. Any adverse effect or issues with your journey is the responsibility of the driver and in no way entitled to any refund or court proceedings with this free information. Have a safe journey and do let me know if this actually helped or if I just got lucky :)
OBD2 Dongle:
LELink OBD2 (Leaf Spy Approved): amzn.to/2HlXfnY
Car OBD2 Extension Cable: amzn.to/2HJMV8k
or
Vgate iCar 2 WiFi OBD2 Scanner: amzn.to/2vUIqqh
Camera Gear:
Canon M6 amzn.to/2HZgJPi
Canon EF-M 11-22 mm f/4-5.6 IS STM Lens: amzn.to/2FMH16s
Phot-R Flash Flashgun Arm: amzn.to/2FbK4nK
Rode VideoMicro Compact On-Camera Microphone: amzn.to/2thoTiO
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Vanguard Alta PH-32 3-Way Pan Head: amzn.to/2IxyR2Q
Neewer Crane 3-Axis Handheld Gimbal Stabilizer: amzn.to/2pjWdQW
Dash Cam used:
APEMAN Dual In Car Dash Cam Camera WQHD 2K 1440P: amzn.to/2HZ7xKR88
Samsung 128 GB 100 MB/s Class 10 U3 Memory: amzn.to/2td1MFL
Music:
Artist: The 126ers
Track: Summer Love
Genre: Pop | Calm
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It's great you are taking the time and effort to explore options to increase range, reduce charging times and then sharing your results with the rest of us! I can see what your thinking is and can I offer a suggestion - don't force air into the vent, rather draw it out into the cabin. If at all possible, maybe fabricating a cardboard template, make the fans as airtight as possible, so they only draw in air from the vent. Not sure what this vent is for but maybe crack a couple of windows so you are not gassed by petrol vapours ;-) But seriously - be cautious.
Second, batteries generate heat from the reaction that occurs when discharging or charging. If you are doing both at the same time then this increases the heat build up. So, DON'T stress the batteries - like running the aircon compressor. Disable regen! Don't heat the batteries by charging on the go. As I understand the Leaf battery is passive, there may well be airflow but the ambient temperature will dictate what effect this has. if the outside temperature is 28 degrees C then the batteries will only really cool to this level regardless - though I fully accept this may be a gross simplification of battery thermal management!
In summary, as I am sure you know, it's always a trade off between speed to target (charger) and time taken when you are there (charging) for passive battery pack vehicles. As well as exploring the "active vent" idea, maybe adopt a "landing sequence" for the charger - 5 miles out, slow from (say) 70mph to 50mph and disable regen. The cost in time is 1 minute 30 seconds to reduce speed in this way for 5 miles. Disable anything else that may draw power like aircon or heater. Then see if charging once the batteries are cooler reduces beyond your 90 second "cost" for easing up on the battery load....because if charging to the same percentage happens faster, anything over 90 seconds is the benefit and you can gauge if it is worth the effort or not!
Joe McMorrow I hope he does try this, but it would be hard to measure the effectiveness, surely?
I think everything is worth trying and I do like the idea of fabricating a cardboard template. I will have to give that a go. like all my test some are harder to gauge than others.
Are yes a leaf blower. I like that sounds like its an option. Great video
HA! i made a pun and didn't even realise it :D
LOL! Nice try James. Maybe the batteries closest to the fans cooled by a fraction of a degree. Get that "LEAF" blower, hahahaha! I think if it was that easy Nissan would have added some cooling. They knew it would be a challenge for their customers but cost of cooling for their current battery systems was probably not worth the investment knowing the LG Chem solution was in the pipeline. My 40kWH LEAF is doing great and for me its still the best car I have owned in 34 years. I have another long trip in September up to Fort William and really looking forward to the journey. I will follow your plan for longer trips as this was successful for me previously.
Keep up the good work.
Someone has to try these silly test and report back :D Glad to hear my long distance technique worked for you.
I have the solution. As soon as I can, if Nissan financing agree, I'm going to swop my 40KWh in for the 60KWh (if that's what it's going to be). With the Kona now available to order, Nissan are going to have to be pretty quick-smart in releasing the upgraded Leaf. And if the price of the Kona is around £30K (not sure if that's after the £4.5K UK government grant) then Nissan really do have a problem lol.
It’s actually 34500 for the premium - the 4k and you just over the 30k mark the two tone with led headlights is more expensive if you go to Hyundai directs website the U.K. prices are listed
Peter that is one solution and not a bad one at that to upgrade the car as soon as possible if the current car doesn't meet your needs. The Kona seems to be a good choice and one that is available how with decent wait time for the build.
Great video James, always great to hear about your latest scheme to cool down a Leaf 2.0 battery.
Pretty sure we can chalk up the results of this test to ‘measurement error’, the results are well and truly in the uncertainty band for the system. The battery pack is such a large thermal mass that the cooling system would need to be massive and integral to make a difference.
What about liquid nitrogen through the inspection port?
I have opened the two battery access covers as you did. I am not using fans but sticking my hand in the hole while driving clearly shows the car fan is moving air over the outside of the battery. Without the fan there is no air moving even with the car traveling. I need to continue this but it seems to be having very little effect. I suspect nothing we do to the OUTside of the battery is going to cool it. The cooling must be INside the battery as with the Chevy Bolt and Teslas. I think the only cure for all this is to trade the car in on the next generation!
Good video James as always your creating good chatter about this.
Thank Ken, hopefully, one of my crazy ideas will work one day. :)
That section around 16:00 gives a whole new twist to 'plug share' ! ;-D
Thanks for the very re-assuring and informative video, James. Richard.
Haha just had to share my new find of good YT shows :)
I was thinking about doing this, thanks for letting me know it might not be worth it!
As a control, try the same journey/charge routine with just the hatch open
Always a joy to watch
Ordered my 40kw leaf the other day. Now having second thoughts after watching what you need to do...
Its a lot better now with the BMS update. This video is with the old firmware. It depends if you need to do more than 300 miles in a day often or not? I have some new video coming out soon showing the update in action which your new car would have.
Lemon-Tea Leaf, yes, I’ve been debating for a while about making the jump to an EV; what made my mind up was sitting down and actually counting how many times I actually do more than 140 miles in a day. It turns out I can count on one hand how often I need to do any great distance and even then probably no more than one charge. For the couple of times I need to do more I’m more than confident it wouldn’t be completely unworkable.
PS enjoying your videos. Thanks
I just rent a hybrid when going on the yearly long distance trip
I like the idea. I am afraid it will not have a lot of effect since you are unable to create a proper airflow in the battery package. I do not have to nerve to open it up myself but when you have done it is there a possibility to slide in a hose to the far ends of the package? Blowing in cool air through that and allowing it to escape from the hatch might give a better effect.
I think i'll need to make a better seal with the airflow so its in one direction. I'll look into that.
Would you consider adding a video regarding how to open the access port? Also, if you believe based on the noise that the pack is not sealed within a complete shell, then I would second Joe McMorrow's comment. Reversing the airflow into the cabin might have more impact on battery cooling, by drawing a greater air volume across the pack.
You pop the plastic cover in the centre footwell and use a wrench to open the bolts for the plate. I might look into pulling air into the cabin instead.
e-NV200 adventures is great - thanks for sharing.
I've always thought the batteries were a sealed box within a sealed box, double wrapped if you know what I mean. I was thinking if some sort of large Petier chip thermally secured to the bottom or sides may help cool the battery box, a large one so its even cooling across the battery box (no cold spots) and low power one so its only sapping 5 or 10 degrees, not sure on the power, maybe whilst its charging only - using the chademo?
Have no idea of the mechanics or feasibility but just an idea ;)
I like the idea and it seems like cars and computer parts are getting closer together as cooling for both seems to be a factor in keeping the system running at optimum. The only issue is the battery is encased like you said but direct airflow from driving does have an effect on cooling it. just need to simulate this airflow when stationary I think.
here's an idea for battery cooling, drive threw a large puddle or for a video drive hard and use a hosepipe on the underside of pack Like one of my subscribers did on his zoe when his aircon leaked so the coooling didn't work
Tried that one down by the ford in peasy bay last time :D seems to work a treat :D
not sure if the batteries have a heatsink which dissipate heat into the air, but if they do, you could attach additional heatsinks for better heat dissipation... this would probably have the opposite effect in the winter though...
I think the outer shell of the battery is the heat sink. as driving with airflow over it seems to help cool the battery down.
Lemon-Tea Leaf so..... having a cover for the underside (like rally cars) made of aluminium, using some sort of thermal paste to the battery shell could work?
peltier modules attached to the battery box (from ground) must be more effective... BUT .....The question is about if these baterries are ready for active cooling... And what about waranty of the battery :-) ?
You need an ice cube machine, and a conveyor belt to drop them down onto the battery🤣🤣🤣
Fit aLeaf blower? That's genius! Thanks for the laugh, James.
Hi James, well done for spending the time to evaluate a concept. However, I don’t see any evidence that the USB fans achieved anything - and effect is clearly very small and the results are swamped by the data ‘noise’ of changing ambient temperature, varying charge rates etc. Re ambient, don’t forget a drop of 2 decrees would result in a drop of 2 degrees in the battery temperature albeit with a lag as the ambient fell, due to the thermal mass of the battery which slows the cooling rate without changing the eventual end point temperature.
Re other fan ideas, before designing any such system, I’d want to know more about the design of the battery pack. For example, is the outer casing sealed (in which case the air flow would only be cooling the outer case, not the cells themselves directly)? Is the outer case in good thermal contact with the cells? If not, cooling it alone would be largely ineffective. Are there channels between the cells and does external air already flow through these, in which case adding forced air to this would improve cooling? Etc. Etc. Quite a project in my opinion, and I suspect from poor responses I’ve had from Nissan UK on other matters, it would be very difficult to obtain the necessary info.
But well done anyway.
From what I can tell when driving at a steady 50mph the battery temp seems to drop faster than just leaving it to stand still so I believe that the outer shell is getting cooled by the airflow somehow. I think I need the car up on a ramp to see.
Lemon-Tea Leaf: That makes sense. I believe but can’t be certain that the lower panel of the battery pack case is exposed to ambient air underneath the car. If so, slipstream air flowing along this surface beneath the car would assist in drawing heat from the cells.
Interesting that at 50 mph the battery temperature falls rather than rises at it does at higher speeds. There must be a speed where heat lost equals heat generated so the battery temperature would remain constant. Obviously this speed will depend in the ambient temperature and whether you’ve got a head wind, tail wind or crosswind, and the wind speed. But the important thing to me seems to be that if you’re on a long journey and being delayed by rapid charge throttling, you could reduce charging time by driving more slowly so the battery temperature was lower when you plug in, but I don’t know if the time lost by driving slowly is made up by the faster charge rate when you stop to rapid charge.
Have you any experience of this trade-off?
I didn’t hear you mention what position recirc was in, fresh air or recirc. In recirc it would be like having all doors and windows in your house closed except one, and putting a fan in that open doorway. Whatever air you blow out is just going to come back in. But in fresh air, it would be like having a way for air to enter, as in opening a door or window at opposite ends of the house, and adding a fan to assist the natural breeze.
Obviously you shouldn’t need to take your car apart to keep the battery in limits. Either Nissan designed cabin air exits in the right place to cool the battery when the fan is on high in fresh air (recirc off) mode, or they didn’t. Adding fans in the wrong area may actually counter designed air flow.
Bearing in mind that all you can do is to try to reduce the temperature lag between the cells and ambient temperature by affecting one of the intermediate temperature zones, which is that between the outside of the battery case and the inside of the compartment formed by the underside of the cabin and the aeroshield under the battery.
If Nissan designed the HVAC vent system to affect the system, it would be by forcing air which is cooler than ambient air through the intermediate insulation, which would cut the inherent lag from 12 hours down to 3 hours, meaning most of its cooling would happen between charging. And when the car is parked the battery temperature should remain sort of stable with a 12 hour lag so that it doesn’t heat or cool too fast when the HVAC is off.
I can’t believe all the Nissan engineers are gender studies majors, so I wonder what testing they did and what is the real design. Which testing showed them that the eNV200 needs active thermal management, but the Leaf doesn’t? We need to hear from the actual engineers, not these PR idiots who just regurgitate something they don’t really understand.
So far the only official explanation is “We fixed the BMS”, but that is not the answer to the question of why Nissan didn’t use some active thermal management system. I’d like to hear from Nissan engineering team the real answer. But where are these guys hiding?
it was in fresh air mode. So i was forcing extra air into the cabin in the hope it would get drawn out of the battery maintenance hatch.
I'd have to say no you can't. Nissan should smarten up and make a real battery thermal management system like all the other big manufacturers are doing. They seem serious but yet don't grasp the concept of people wanting their batteries to last a long time. Or being able to quick charge more than once on a trip. Mind boggling.
@John W E-NV200 still rapidgates
@John W Yea. But Nissan is just stupid for not installing a good cooling, because less people are gonna buy their cars. Especially in hot country's
The method you used did not make a difference in the temperature of the battery. The battery is sealed with the exception of a few small ports for airflow while the car is driving. The battery disconnect area is no where near these ports, and even if it was, air is not going into those ports without positive pressure. This will never be achieved because there are gaps around the battery that allow air to escape. Air must be forced into the battery through a dedicated sealed port connected to a fan and exhausted to make any kind of difference.
I have always wondered what that Cyan Eco bar was for. I tried finding a description of it in the owners manual but couldn't find anything about it. I did notice that it moves around a little bit. How does it work?
Seems the faster you go the longer it gets. I think its to imitate the faster air flow from the car to cool the battery down.
The batteries are sealed up in too much metal to be affected by fans like this. They do that to keep them from bursting into flames. Tesla opted for an active TMS. But it won't control temperature after combustion starts.
May I ask you to put a pipe from the cabin central air openings to the battery opening? To see if the air conditioner cold air could help to lower the temp, with just to fans from ambient air it may not help, but maybe this helps out.
On the other hand, do you know from where does the air enter the battery to cool it when you are on the run?
General comment. I notice you now link to two OMDB dongles. Which is better? Also, the OMDB extension cable seems short and thick. Is it bendy enough to get the panel back on?
I dont use the cable as the cover doesnt' go back on, I actually have the dongle on constantly. I would recommend teh LELink as its actually the official OBD2 that Leaf Spy recommends with an easy one click link.
Well done James , good investigative imagination. By the way have you seen Bjorn’s hypermile test this week. Would you be tempted to morph into Lemon-Tea Kona .
Yes John agreed. I'm a leaf 2.0 owner myself and I'd love it to have the capabilities of the Kona. Maybe Nissan will give us what we want with the 64 e plus
Even though Nissan aren't saying much I suspect they've learned that the customer wants ATM in their cars. Till then I'm sure I'll keep trying diffferent things till something work or it gets replace by a car with ATM :)
As for morphing into lemon-tea kona it's possible as I do like the kona.
How many watts do the fans have? Can you let the fans running for 2-3 hours after driving with battery over 40°C and with the rear windows a little down and compare it to just parking.
You have a point it might work better with the battery at much higher temperature.
Either make the battery hotter, or the cooling air colder. ,:) The temperature difference is the important part. Now moving into the colder times of the year, it will be interesting to see, how it will be with taking some fresh air with
the real question is the outside temp the same? that is needed to show that the fans are even doing anything at all cause if the outside temp is slightly cooler that could be making the difference on battery thermals
Definitely hard to gauge if it had any effect at all with all the different variables.
how dose minus 30 degrees c affect the battery's cooling? would that be good for the battery not getting to hot on highway driving with multiple level 3 charges?
I am temped to test it this winter with my leaf
My leaf has went from 180 full range to 160 since I got it . Anyone else have this? Or is it my driving. I do kick it quite alot as I'm so surprised how quick it is.
If you’re talking about the Guess’O’Metre then it much depends how you’ve been driving previously. If you’ve been kicking it, then it
would expect you to do the same for the current drive so it’ll give you a lower reading. Just remember it’s an estimate so I wouldn’t worry about that to much. The closer to zero % the more accurate it’ll be.
I thought that. I deleted the memory and it still only charges to 160 miles. I'm happy with that though.
Nice shirt!!
Anyone trying putting fans under the car for cooling during charging? This is to simulate air cool during car moving.
no but I've thought about it 😂
Is there a way to hack the throttling software and disable it?
Not that we know, depends on how we can access the ECU also disabling it could make the battery degrade quicker or worse implode. Ok maybe that's over the top but I don't think Nissan will give out the source code for it.
James, how do you get the navigation signs to appear on your dash screen?
its in the dash setting screen for sure. I found it the other day again.
Lemon-Tea Leaf , thanks mate. I've now found it and turned it on. 👍
There is no difference. I tried with cold water at home, and that worked. 5 minutes of spraying cold water and temp dropped from 41 down to 36 on average in 15 minutes. Why this method hardly works is that air doesn't conduct well and AC'd air is counteracted with warmed air from the front AC condenser.
To have air blowing over the battery, switch on AC (so external fans turn on) but minimize load (turn it to warm and minimum fan speed). There is ~1m/s airflow over the battery when external fans are on.
Thanks Arnis, did you spray the bottom of the car with water?
No - from above. Through that port hole.Hardest part is to spray water onto rear stack as it is higher than port itself. Water drains from the sides.
@@tarassu what do you mean through the porthole? I'm pretty sure it isn't waterproof.
Because the battery is almost certainly sealed, you would not be getting any actual air flow through the battery. At best, just pressurising it.
What you need to do is fill a load of large holes in your battery pack. Just make sure you make sure the drill bit is pushed right in and wiggle it around inside the battery pack to make a bit more room inside for the air. Drill some of those pesky battery cells or a bit.
I was hoping to cool the to exterior shell of the battery to draw some of the heat from it.
I was thinking about this at work last night... The heat from the battery pack has to dissipate from its casing into the air passing by, would you be up for an experiment of increasing your battery casing surface area using heatsinks/fins to make it like an air cooled ice engine or inside pcs?! Attach loads of these or similar- www.conradheatsinks.com/images/2001_c.JPG using a thermal paste compound to help thermal transfer. Then maybe the passing airflow underneath may help the cooling? If that works then add fans to the heatsinks :) thoughts on this experiment please Lemontealeaf
With the me firmware I don't think you'll need to worry about the throttling. Unless your doing more than 300 miles in one trip. But I like the idea of the heat sink for other regions that don't have the latest firmware.
@@LemonTeaLeaf was hoping you'd test it for fun! Haha
@@flyboybeetson maybe after the PCP 😄