The biggest misconception in craps is that specific strategies can guarantee consistent wins. While techniques like "pressing bets" or focusing on popular numbers (e.g., 6 and 8) can enhance payouts, the house edge remains constant. Success in craps comes from managing your bankroll and treating the game as entertainment, not a profit-making tool.
I agree only 100%! Same is true with BlackJack - the misconception that higher cards in the shoe means better odds for you - WHY? I see it as better odds for the house! None of these work in the casino - only on youtube!
What if the shooter rolls funky #'s all over the place? ( it's the way I toss the dice) I'm more likely to hit my point on a 4 than an 8, truly . But I also roll alot of craps, ( along with 11's)
@@007motu When the dealer gets blackjack, you lose your bet. When you get a blackjack, you get paid 3:2. So more tens and aces in the shoe means more blackjacks all around, which favors the player. There are other factors that make + counts favorable, but that is the main one. The real problem with counting is that, in order to overcome the house edge on most of your bets you have to bet big when you have the edge, and that edge is very small, so those big bets don't always go your way. You need a big bankroll and a strong stomach, because you will have some big losses.
The trick here is that the dealer just quickly moves past the come out roll and hammers home that the pass line bet is a bad bet after the point is established. Ok - but what about before the point is established? The player actually has the advantage over the house (8 combos to win, 4 combos to lose). And if you blend pre-point and post-point returns on a pass line bet - which you should because that’s how the bet works - it has a house advantage of 1.41%. That is lower than a place on 6 and 8 and MUCH lower than a place or buy on 4, 5, 9 or 10. That is WITHOUT ANY ODDS; the house edge goes down from there the more odds are added. And anyone who says otherwise is simply misleading you. Check out wizard of odds if you don’t believe a random internet comment.
The House Edge going down with increased odds is illusory. You lose a lower percentage of a larger bet. Since the odds bet gives no advantage to either side - you or the casino - it cannot lower the house edge or raise it or lower or raise your disadvantage.
You're going over the heads of a lot of the commenters on this video. They don't get the math of the passline/odds bet vs. the place bet. They'd rather stand there and twiddle their thumbs on the come out roll when they have the advantage over the casino and then throw their chips out when the casino has the advantage.
@@skinovtheperineum1208obviously taking odds doesn’t get you EV back from the casino, but if you want $100 of action and would either get it with a $100 place bet or $25 PL + $75 odds you should definitely take into account the odds when considering what will be your expected return.
That's because its not adding up...Odds remain the same if you place a PL bet, or not. Better odds for you on the CO roll, and better for the house when it doesnt...I "get it", with what he's saying...Only other alternative, however, are hop bets; "Risk $7 to win more than 1-1": $4 on the horn, and $3 on the 7's...In the end, the odds are around even. Some CO rolls you will lose when a point is thrown, and some you will win with a 2,3,11,12, and 7...
The argument that the pass line bettor needs to hit the number twice vs the place bettor needing it once is wrong. Unless you are working your place bets on the come out, which I rarely see anyone do. The pass line bettor and place bettor are in the same boat, you both need that number before 7. It doesn't matter that the shooter rolled it once before, every roll is independent of the last. You both need it before the 7 comes out or you both lose. Very misleading.
So, you can place a number before the come out roll? I always thought you had to wait for the point to be established first before placing numbers. If that’s not the case, if I place an 8 before come out, and someone has a pass line bet and rolls 8, I get paid? The point is now 8. They roll 8 again we both get paid but I got paid twice?
Also, once a point is established, a pass line better has the option of wagering additional money on a bet with fair odds (a rare commodity in a casino). The odds on the five (his example) pays 3:2. The place pays 7:5. Unless you really hate money, you would rather bet the odds. The original bet only pays even money, but it's already committed.
@@billdivine9501 No, you don't have to wait for a point to be established for a place bet to be working. But if you have place bets up during the come out roll, the dealers will assume they are off. You have to tell them you want them on.
@@billdivine9501 Yes. you can place the place bets before the come out roll. (It is not customary, but you can do it. But since place bets are "not working" on the come out roll, you have to tell the dealer to "work" yours.
Your comparison between place bets and line bets overlooks key aspects of how line bets work, especially during the come-out roll. On the come-out roll, the odds are heavily in your favor: there are 8 ways to win (rolling a 7 or 11) and only 4 ways to lose (rolling a 2, 3, or 12). The remaining outcomes establish your point, giving you a fair shot at winning on subsequent rolls. This phase is often ignored in comparisons, but it’s critical to understanding why the line bet holds its value. You also mentioned that the odds bet is a "good bet" but argue that requiring a line bet to access it makes the line bet a bad bet. This logic is flawed. The line bet and odds bet work together-one provides access to the other. While the line bet has a house edge of 1.41%, it’s among the lowest of any bet on the table. Pairing it with the odds bet (which has no house edge) makes this combination one of the best bets in craps for minimizing the house’s advantage. The house advantage is not subjective-it’s precise, undisputed math. It represents how much the casino is expected to win on any given bet over time. For the line bet, the house edge is well-defined and clear. Using long explanations to critique the line bet doesn’t change the math; the fairness of the payouts and the advantage of the casino are indisputable to anyone who understands craps probabilities. In summary, while place bets offer flexibility, they’re not inherently "better" than line bets. The mechanics of the come-out roll, the low house edge of the line bet, and the strength of the odds bet make the line bet a solid choice, both mathematically and strategically. Comparing the two requires understanding their differences, not simply dismissing one based on preferences or partial arguments.
This ignores the pass line bet that has a better success rate vs fail. So any money “lost” on the odds can be made up on the 7’s hit before the point is established. But it probably stands that you’re losing money if you are only doing one or two times the odds.
@@gregmawson4043 I don’t think David cares what people play and obviously he knows the game. From their videos they seem to lean towards the side of being aggressive and maximizing opportunity for a hot roll. If you’re aggressive with place bets then you’ll do well on a hot roll, otherwise you’re dead. It really just comes down to the amount of risk/variance someone is willing to tolerate in a session. They all understand that pass/DP with odds is the mathematical best way to play. It’s the way I prefer to play. Sometimes I see place bettors stacking chips faster than me on a good roll where my point isn’t being hit. More often than not though, eventually they’re reaching into their wallets or walking away empty, whereas I’m usually still playing.
Remember, the guy is working in a casino for a job. That explains things Hate to be cynical about the poor dudes abilities, but he doesn't seem to understand that over the long term you will lose the house edge on your bets, and there is NOTHING one can do to change that fact Thus the typical place bettor will lose around 4% of his action , and the pass/5x odds bettor will lose 0.326%. Roughly 1/13ths as much loss on his action
@ I don’t think he has a motive to push the place bets. I think he prefers them due to the chance of pressing to the moon on a hot roll. He works for the casino, he doesn’t own it. Why would he care what anyone plays.
I hate this video because it completely ignores the best part of the Pass line bet: the come out. If the difference between Pass + 5x Odds and Placing that number is similar in payout, then it's still better to play the Pass because the Pass line includes, for completely free, an extra one roll bet that pays one unit on a 7 or 11 and only loses on a 2, 3, or 12. If you are going to Place the point anyway, you may as well take advantage of that "free" one roll bet with huge player advantage by playing Pass instead.
Absolutely. You have 2:1 odds of winning on the comeout roll with a passline bet. And there are plenty of times that the 7 and/or 11 hit multiple times before the point is set.
@Ramonatho if the Press bet pays the same as Pass + 5x Odds, but Pass also has a bonus one roll bet with a 2:1 player advantage, that doesn't make Pass a safety bet. It just makes it a better bet m
You can manage your odds to a small degree. You can take down your odds whenever you want, which is the same as taking down your place bets. You can press your odds up to the max. But the odds are limited to the table rules. If it's 5x max odds and I wanted to go 10x, I take my odds down and tell the dealer to place 10 units on whatever the point is. Dealers will sometimes try and tell you to place another $5 on your pass line bet to give you more room to press up your odds. But now you just added $5 to a bet that you cannot take down and that only pays even money. Me personally I play only the minimum on the pass line and avoid playing on tables with a minimum bet higher than $10.
Math. The ONLY REASON people say is such a good game IS BECAUSE the odds bet pays true odds, can't get better odds than true odds. That's where the good reputation comes from.
PL & 2 Come bets is a better way to play than a place bettor, because you're not hosed on the PSO, as well as the point, number out rolls, which happen a lot.
Your explanation at 2:50 is wrong. You described a place bet correctly, but when you compared the place bet to the winning pass line bet, you treated the pass line+odds as if it was a put bet. A put bet does not have the expectation of the come out roll. There is a concept known as expectation. The expected loss on his pass+4x odds ($225 total bet) is about 30 cents. The expected loss on a place bet of $225 is about $9. Basic math. Stop giving people bad info.
@@snakepliskin1185 of course. Craps is a negative expectation game. Point is to make bankroll last longer and entertainment cheaper. Those 5 and 9 place bets are relatively high house edge bets. Even the buy 4 and 10 have a lower edge. With high HE bets, your wins will be smaller whiles losses bigger.
It's not about the "entrance" but the "exiti." Stay too long with any roller, and you'll get bit. The strategy of piling things on when you're playing with the casino's money is just another way to give your winnings away, if you were lucky enough to get to that point. To summarize: strategic entry, and then a quick exit.
That lower payment you are getting on the pass + odds bet over the place bet is the lower risk you have on the pass portion of the bet, (where the pass portion wins most times on 7/11 on the come out roll = lower overall risk).
One math error I think....with your "odds payout" if the point hits (only way to win the odds) you did not add the passline bet (at the 10 times odds) to the place bet ie the 4. You would place the 4 for 275 not 250. Yes, No ?
I'm a craps dealer, I always tell new players not to listen to other players (especially ours) because, 1. They will tell them to bet the bonus and prop section and do bets that they won't even do. 2. They will tell them to set the dice, throw them a certain way, throw them in a specific corner, etc. Lastly, they hustle money from them "You wouldn't have won that if I hadn't told you to bet it" etc AND THEY DON"T EVEN TELL THEM TO TAKE CARE OF THE DEALERS. I always tell new players, if you're gonna bet the line, play odds, otherwise just do place bets and stay out of no mans land.
Only way to play craps with lowest house edge is to play pass or don’t pass with max odds. All other bets on the table are worse. This guy is no math expert
I try to hammer the teaching that I don't play the pass line. And as many times that I've said it, I still get the argument. "Why not play the pass line Max odds". Great Job David/Dennis!
@Josh-ex2qc Mainly because I don't really care about the house edge. if you are only only playing 1 number and you don't Hit that number, the house edge is irrelevant, you lose all of it. Why Not play all the numbers and give you more of an opportunity to make more...
@ If you’re going across you have a good chance of losing it all before you’ve recouped it. If you’re going to make good money on a roll that way you need to hit multiple repeaters in order to press to a meaningful level anyways which is arguably harder than just hitting a point. But as long as people are playing a strategy they have fun with that’s the most important thing.
@@markthepoint - What does are only only mean? Does that mean that you were in such a rush to get your golden words of wisdom out to the masses that you failed (once again) to realize that your golden words of wisdom made no sense? You are the dream gambler for the House. They just love people who 'don't really care about the house edge.' In that case, why not stand there all day betting black chips on the 12? It's bound to hit sooner or later.
@@Josh-ex2qc - I imagine myself at the Borgata the night that lady rolled for over 4 hours. Having Place and Buy bets safe from harm for over 4 hours is something all Craps players dream of.
In your demo you set up the bets incorrectly. When you had an example of “2x” times odds you included the pass bet on the place bet so $25 on the line $50 odds you would place $75 on the 5 but when you demonstrated the 10x odds you put $25 on the line with $250 odds then on the place bet you only put $250 keep the same example you should put $275 on the 5 & 4 to compare true place bet to pass line and odds bet
My friends all laugh at me when I tell them taking odds is a sucker's bet. I'm going to share this video with them now. Seriously, if it was a good bet why do Casinos encourage dealers to ask you if you want to bet odds?
This video is wrong. You can look up the pass line odds vs place bet odds in literally 15 seconds. Your friends will continue to laugh at you because they are right.
If I want to shoot (usually just because I'm playing bubble craps) I use the don't pass, gives me the edge when it comes to making those place bets work!
I do not play pass when others roll. When you are forced to it pays better when you use the odds rather than place the bet. $5 placed #10 pays $9. $5 odds pays 10. And you didn’t explain that you can also control your odds. You can remove anytime. I enjoy watching your channel, thank you
Id like to ask , lets say you have 110 inside or 220 perhaps and have a passline also If you wanna bet more wouldnt it make sense to add money in the 6or8 for example . Even if there not the point and they hit a few times ,wouldnt you make considerable more money than ,odds on behind the passline . Or even placing the point number . If you place the point number instead of odds behind the pass line , and bet on another number , that number xan hit several times and increase your winnings . As apposed to just once on a place bet point number
I only play the passline when I shoot, or, sometimes, bet the ATS. I call the passline bet when I shoot, " The price of admission ." Dealers get a laugh out of it when I say that.
You win on 7 and 11 on the come out roll, by far the best odds of winning of any bet. Place bets do not have that advantage, in fact most if the time you turn them off to avoid losing them on the come out.
Best way to profit is to play all numbers max that you can afford to bet, spread your number hits to all numbers on table and learn how to roll 5 rolls without hitting 7. Then take all your money and run.
If you guys have trouble comparing pass line + odds to place bets, compare a put bet with odds to a place bet. Because that's equivalent to what he's really talking about anyway. If you compare the 7:6 place bet to the put bet with 6:5 odds, you need at least 5x odds for the put bet to break even. If you're allowed higher than 5x odds, then you should actually do the put bet instead of the place bet, assuming you want to bet at least 6x the minimum bet. But I want to say, not all casinos max out your odds at 4 times the pass line bet. I thought the 10x at my casino was actually low.
@ hop the 7/11 and an any craps and it’s the same as playing the line. Except you won’t lose on the 2/3/12 and the any craps keeps the money up on 7/11
@@stevenfields4871 you’re not trying to win per se, but betting the pass line on those rolls more than makes up for the lower pay when a number hits as stated in the video.
The reality is the difference between placing the 6/8, buying the odds on the 4/10 where you pay only on a win and a pass line bet is around .1 to .2%. 1.48 v 1.57 (6/8) and 1.67 (4/10). So yes the pass line bet is the "best" bet on the table, but if you want to get more action or just want more control over your bet then focusing on the 4/6/8 and 10 makes sense.
I'm going to watch this video because I love the content; but before I do, I've never considered the odds bet the "best bet" i just know it's considered the ONLY bet at the casino that does not give a house edge because it pays true odds. But I've learned not to play it. Ok on to the video. Always good stuff Casino Quest
@@joes2608 If you’ve learned not to play it you haven’t learned anything . In fact you’ve only been misled . I recommend doing a little more research before you give this video any credence .
Mathematically it is the best bet in the house. Not everybody plays the pass line though. Some people like the freedom or simplicity of placing numbers.
to win in craps survive until a hot roll happens, people will say each roll independent from last but experience has taught me trends happen and those blind to them miss amazing opportunities in craps
I only play the pass line when I shoot. I call it, "The price of admission". When playing the pass line, I have no shoes and bet my inside numbers. My odds are in the place bet. You get a shooter, and that place bet can be pressed to far exceed the pass line odds bet.
This was good. I forgot I can still take place bets on my point as a secondary bet . I forgot I can do that If my point's a five and if the shooter's rolling I can just do an added place. Bet if I wanted that's a good idea. I don't even have to put the pass if he's rolling
Sort of. You win 8 times in 36. You lose 4 times in 36. So you are up 4 units in 36 rolls that do not make a point. However, the remaining 24 rolls make a point with a negative expectation. If you do the make, those 24 rolls will lose slightly more than 4 units. If the house simply let you take down your line bet in the same way you can take down odds, you would have a 2 10 1 edge. But that is not how the game is played.
@@GRice999 It's the same thing. A pass line bet is a contract bet. You cant remove it. Like stated, the only "advantage" is on the come out roll. After a point has been established, the advantage switches back to the casino. VS place bets that can be turned on/off during a roll.
@@GRice999 I would argue otherwise...2/12 pays 30-1, 3/11 pays 15-1, and any 7 pays 4-1... I always play these on the come out roll ($10 hop bet vs $10 pass line bet), and am ahead for the simple fact that the 7 comes out in proportion to the 2,3 or 12... A simple case where the math doesn't = the reality of game play...It just doesn't add up. How can the pass line be an equal %, when the same # must be rolled twice...? It cant be correct. Odds % is based on the OG come out roll, alone, and not on rolling a point twice before the 7 comes. This is what they are arguing. That is the casino's "lie"... Anytime a point is established, the odds switch back in the casino's favor, due to the law of averages. Where as, the odds you lose when placing a come out hop, you gain in a higher payout %.
@@brentfarvors192 2 and 12 pays 30:1, but the fair price is 35:1. That's a huge house advantage of 13.9%! 3 and 11 pays 15:1, but the fair price is 17:1. That's a huge house advantage of 11.1%! Any seven pays 4:1, but the fair price is 5:1. That's a huge house advantage of 16.9%! Those are all sucker bets, as are the horn bets. The place bets used in the video have a house advantage ranging from 1.52%-6.67%. There are no ways to make a combination of those bets and do better than betting the pass or come line bet, which is only a 1.4% house advantage. And the odds bet has no house advantage. Twist those numbers and yourself like a pretzel all you want, but you will always do worse in the long run compared to betting the pass line and taking the odds after the point is established.
monsweko below is correct. The pass line with odds is not the same as place bets and the two cannot be compared. The advantage for the pass line bet on the come out roll has to be figured in. He is completely ignoring that. (again see monsweko below).
incorrect. The reason they have only double odds is because they have no edge on these bets so why let you bet more and possibly win more? You don't correct a bad situation by making it worse. Your double odds lowers the house edge against you to approximately 0.60%. Why would you, in protest to only being allowed to play double odds, then turn the odds against you from 0.60 to 1.52% on 6 and 8, 4% on the 5 and 9 and 6.67% on the 4 and 10? Numbers don't lie. People do.
If I bet $100K on the PL and PB 6 & 8 with an average 1.45% HA, that'd be $1450 for the house, whereas with 2X odds on the pass line at 0.6% HA = $600 to the house. With a tiny budget, it could mean playing twice as long with 2X odds instead of with 2X place bets. But for a quarter table on a slim budget, I'd be thinking about $30 on the PL and $15, $20, or $25 on the odds.
You aren't comparing apples to apples. If you have a pass line bet of $25 @3/4/5 on a 5 you can only control what you do with the $100 odds bet and you can't pick up your pass line bet. You can put 100 on odds that pay 150. A 100 place bet on the 5 pays 140. Are you shilling for casino bets that have a 4% house edge vs a bet that has no house edge?
at the 8 minute mark and am having trouble digesting the terrible math. The only universe where this logic makes sense is if the pass line vs the pass line with odds is two different bets. The pass line coming out is NOT a different bet once the point is established. It is the same exact bet. Moreover it has the edge coming out and is a dog after coming out built in and mixed into it. Pass line is an odds favorite to win 7/11 coming out. This SAME bet then becomes a dog once point is established. We mitigate this dog after the point is established by placing FREE odds where the house has no edge against us and we get paid true and correct odds on the point. When avoiding the pass line you NEVER have a chance at being a favorite to win and are an immediate dog and not only that, you do NOT get paid true and correct odds when you do happen to hit. Pass line odds against you without free odds placed after the point is 1.41% As you place FREE ODDS this percentage is lowered with each free odds dollar wagered. Placing any number is a dog immediately and stays a dog, namely 6.67% against you on the 4 and 10, there is a 4% house edge against you on the 5 and 9, and a 1.52% house edge against you on the 6 and 8. If placing FREE ODDS was bad for you as a player the casino would let you do it without a pass line bet, and they DO NOT. But do they let you place any number whether the puck is off or on? YES, YES they do and that is because it is bad for you and good for them. You can even turn those place bets on coming out and this isn't because it is good for you. Are your FREE ODDS bets working coming out? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Numbers don't lie, people do.
oh man..... while we can agree 25 pass with 50 odds pays less than $75 as a place bet...... how about all the times the 25 pass line bet won on the come out roll??? Subtract that out and the pass line is better again. Did you know how place bets were calculated? for any place bet, think of every nickel as $1 pass line with $4 odds ($1 flat with 5 odds on 6 or 8)
Hell, he says you get the same payout on the place as on the pass with 4x odds as (true) without the "ups and downs" of the comeout roll. Also true, but the "ups" happen twice as often as the "downs". Bottom line: $25 pass line bet has an expected loss of 35 cents. The odds bet has an expected loss of 0. The place bet on the five has an expected loss of $5. That's a factor of over 14.
This is an April Fool’s joke? That’s not how the math works. The pass bet is already paying much less than it should once a point has been established since lots of the winners of the pass bet are during the come out roll. This only holds true if you stupidly put down a pass bet once a point has been established, and totally breaks down on the dark side.
Funny thing is, a put bet (pass or come bet placed after the comeout roll) with 4x odds pays the same on 5 (or 9) as a place bet. But since you have thrown away you chance to win on a comeout 7 or 11, your expected loss goes from 35.25 cents to $5.
on the front part of 3,4,5x odd you used the total bet (passline and odd) in place bet as comparison, but on 10 x odd you just putting the odd money in place bet for comparison.
i preach this to people all thre time Best example is my local $10 table, most people play a $10 pass, but on a 4,or 10 you can do $30 odds, so if it wins, your $40 wager wins you a total of $70. Nice! But do the math, that same $40 wager will pay $80, minus a $2 vig, for a total win of $78. Now, I ask you, would you rather have your $40 wager win $70 or $78? It’s the same $40 at risk, but you win more on the place than the pass line with max odds , AND, you can manipulate the place bet as you wish, press it, regress it, or take it down entirely. The pass line portion of a “line bet” is a contract bet that must remain once a point is established
The analysis fails because of the comeout pass line. But I've never been in love with odds, cause who's got money to play 10x odds. I was a dealer. People rarely bet 10x odds.
when you went to the 10x odds, you didn't keep the place bet = passline +odds, you only were putting 250 out on the place, in 3/4/5 examples you were matching investment as a place bet. Shouldn't it have been the 250+25 so 275 out as the place?
@@holymoly8718 That makes zero sense . Are you claiming that the math is somehow wrong ? If one player is consistently fading 1.4 % and the other 3-4 % and they’re betting the same amount it doesn’t take a genius to know who will do better over the long haul in practice.
Because the number hit once you think it's less likely to hit again? There's actually no mathematical basis for that. Regardless , I would much rather bet on numbers that are hitting recently vs those that are not. Pass and come and give you the opportunity to win on 7/11 at a 2-1 advantage. That fact is usually left out by line bet haters. Once your point is established, you do have a bad contract Bet, but taking max free odds dilutes the house advantage to where its as good as a place bet.
You guys are always entertaining but your explanation of the house's edge on the pass line was skewed to make your point. Even if you couldn't take odds, the house's edge on the a line is still mathematically better than any other bet on the table. That being said I prefer place bets myself.
Is it really? All depends on ones perspective of hop bets on the come out...The real advantage to the player in a pass line bet, is that it only loses with a 2,3,12... The disadvantage is that its a contract bet...
I take a crap cheque on the come-out to insure my pass-line bet and the dealer bet that I place on the side of it when I shoot. It's a terrible bet, but I like to bet it. So I "doed" it anyway.
Lol people are so silly. The come out bet is a different bet than the odds bet. Play the pass line its fun cheap and easy. It over commits you once it becomes a point. You can only play odds after the point is set. Most place points are off during the come out bet (they can be turned on at any time). Its seen as bad luck to have place and buy bets on during a come out roll because on the pass line a 7 wins. Losing all your bets when the table wins feels bad. You can diverse your bet on the numbers. Maximizing the odds bet lowers the amount you can diverse. Its also commited after it becomes a point. Cant be pressed and tends to feel stuck on a long roll. The odds on any roll is the same for every roll tables have no memories. After the come out bet its best to treat the pass line as a number. This is because after the come out roll thats all the odds are just another place bet. Tldr it seems somehow most commentors have lost the point of the video. Diverting your money is better than being stuck and tied to a bet made in a previous round. Craps is a dice game and is more about numbers than the entertaining circus bets that can be made. Argubably hard numbers pay the best.
The math is clear. Pass line plus odds have to lowest house edge... But lowest house edge doesn't mean it's the best bet. Since all bet are loosing bet anyways... The best bet is the one that has the best $ to fun ratio. Just enjoy the game!
@@alexandrehuot3326 that is true but the issue is that the video doesn’t say that. The video strongly implies that the pass line is not significantly better bet in terms of house edge than place bets, which is simply wrong. I would have no issue if the video said “yeah sure pass line is better financially in the long term but it’s boring so I play something else”. My favorite bet is the Make em All which is lighting money on fire, but I enjoy watching it burn.
I like craps because it's fun! Especially when a shooter gets hot! I once held the dice for about 45 minutes at binions. I wasn't betting very much, I kept rolling conventional #'s ( which I'm least confident) I don't press or really know how to bet, (they had 100x odds too) They stalled the table , at one point the Casino manager( only guy with a blue suit) came down an watched my roll. I made $600 + imagine if I knew how to bet. Probably $10k + out on the table when I finally went out. $3 min. Then they wouldn't pass me the dice back if you believe it..
@@alexandrehuot3326 That is a point well taken . But it’s also fun to be able to gamble a little longer than the guy giving up 10% to the house . Just saying .
Place bets are terrible because the "RAKE" for the casino is more than 5%. I never want to make a bet that bad. Thank you for showing us that the odds bet is just as bad as a place bet.
@@michaelblankenau6598 I mean when you factor in the flat pass, as there is no such bet that is odds alone. The reason they say 100x odds is so good is because the more of your pass/odds is composed of odds, the less the rake.
Doesn’t anybody do put-bets anymore? You didn’t mention it! Back in the day with 100x odds and low table minimums - that was the deal. Pays more than place bets and no buy vig to mess with… unless you consider the base put the vig, sort of.
This is insane. When you win your place or buy bet. You don't get paid in true odds. When you win your pass line with odds. You do not get paid in true odds. The house always has an edge. Long term you are a loser. Period.
I have always thought putting money on pass line + odds payed less than if I put the money on the number itself but if someone is hot I would put money there (maybe 20 or 40 bucks or a bit more). In the same vein - card counting in Blackjack seems based on a false premise - the more higher cards in the shoe -the more you can win! Doesn't having more high cards in the shoe means the house can get 20s or 21s more often than before??? I only play blackjack once in a while (if crap tables are cold) - but never bought that concept - I would often see the dealer get 20s and 21s in a row and the players not many good hands regardless of what the mix in the shoe was. I only play for fun - maybe once or twice a month - but enjoy the various youtube theories and strategies - which almost never seem to work in the casino! Craps and Blackjack seems mostly luck - and I enjoy it either way.
NO. More Higher cards (10's) in the deck favor the player, as long as the player is playing Basic Strategy. Card counting can give you the advantage over the casino.
RIP Jokers Wild 100x odds. Glad I got to play there before they closed the tables. I actually have a stack or two of the quarter chips I was slowly collecting to make a set
I bet the dont pass because i know i can't pick up my pass line bet after the come out but i can pick up my bet from the dont pass meaning the casino doesn't want the action proving it to be a good bet
True. Just depends on how you look at it. On the comeout, pass line has 2 to 1 odds of winning, whereas Don't pass has 3 to 8 odds of winning.... On a single roll, pass line is a great bet, but sucks after the point. If you reached an established point, the Don't pass is the best bet on the table.
Ignoring the 7/11 pass line winners (happens about 20% of the time) and losers (2/3/12, happens about 12% of the time) misses the point of the people saying it’s the best bet to make. 1.41% house edge (lowered by odds on the total bet) vs. higher house edge place bets is always a better bet. Another advantage of pass/odds is that it encourages the gambler to collect profits rather than press like a crazy degenerate (ahem 😂). BUT, place bets reduce volatility versus taking max odds in most cases.
Hitting the number twice rather than just once is just a fallacy because every roll is an independent event (I felt David hesitate to espouse this because he knows better).
Interesting stuff. I always thought that the Pass Line bet wasn't a good bet (Max Odds are obviously the good portion of the bet). You articulated it much better than I could have. The fact that the casino forces you to the Pass or Don't Pass in order to shoot the dice would suggest that it's in their favor, too!
Of course every bet besides odds the house takes a rake. Pass line is actually a good bet. On comeout you have 2 to 1 odds of winning vs losing, then much worse odds of winning with a point. But overall I think house only has 1.4% advantage, that is really good, a small rake.
@@dr.options Well odds alone will always be the "best paying" because true odds is the best you can expect... But again, house rake on pass line is only 1.4%. That is better than the rake on place bets and buy bets and field. So no, it is not true that pass line is a horrible bet. I don't have a video to suggest that shows how to calculate odds. But I was a dice dealer, and even in training, we'd hand calculate odds to see how much rake the house took. Here's a couple examples of how to do that yourself. Let's consider and aces prop bet. There's 1 way to roll aces and 36 combinations. So TRUE ODDS would pay us 36 to 1. We can see the house rake since they only pay 30 to 1. If you have a pass line bet, and the point is 4. 3 ways to roll a 4 and 6 ways to roll 7. So your odds on that pass line bet is 1/2. True odds payout would be 2 to 1, you can see the house rake as they pay 1 to 1. So once on a point, your pass line has "worse odds" or a bigger rake on the outside numbers. And is much better on 6 and 8. But flat pass has that 2 to 1 odds of winning vs losing on comeout so makes up for some of the rake, and the overall analysis of pass line odds is difficult. Long story short. The pass line is a good bet.
You’re ignoring the come out roll. Odds are in favor of winning the pass line bet on the come out 8 wins versus 4 losses, the other rolls (numbers 24 rolls). The profit isn’t very big but you don’t include it in your analysis. Also every place bet you make has a negative return. Comparing things the way to do is faulty.
The biggest misconception in craps is that specific strategies can guarantee consistent wins. While techniques like "pressing bets" or focusing on popular numbers (e.g., 6 and 8) can enhance payouts, the house edge remains constant. Success in craps comes from managing your bankroll and treating the game as entertainment, not a profit-making tool.
I agree only 100%! Same is true with BlackJack - the misconception that higher cards in the shoe means better odds for you - WHY? I see it as better odds for the house! None of these work in the casino - only on youtube!
Money management is the secret
What if the shooter rolls funky #'s all over the place? ( it's the way I toss the dice) I'm more likely to hit my point on a 4 than an 8, truly . But I also roll alot of craps, ( along with 11's)
@@chrisp.9172 - If that was true and I was you, I'd go heavy on the 4 and heavier against the 8.
@@007motu When the dealer gets blackjack, you lose your bet. When you get a blackjack, you get paid 3:2. So more tens and aces in the shoe means more blackjacks all around, which favors the player. There are other factors that make + counts favorable, but that is the main one.
The real problem with counting is that, in order to overcome the house edge on most of your bets you have to bet big when you have the edge, and that edge is very small, so those big bets don't always go your way. You need a big bankroll and a strong stomach, because you will have some big losses.
The trick here is that the dealer just quickly moves past the come out roll and hammers home that the pass line bet is a bad bet after the point is established. Ok - but what about before the point is established? The player actually has the advantage over the house (8 combos to win, 4 combos to lose). And if you blend pre-point and post-point returns on a pass line bet - which you should because that’s how the bet works - it has a house advantage of 1.41%. That is lower than a place on 6 and 8 and MUCH lower than a place or buy on 4, 5, 9 or 10. That is WITHOUT ANY ODDS; the house edge goes down from there the more odds are added. And anyone who says otherwise is simply misleading you. Check out wizard of odds if you don’t believe a random internet comment.
Yeah he skips right over the fact the pass line is a huge favorite on roll #1. This video is just misleading and wrong.
The House Edge going down with increased odds is illusory. You lose a lower percentage of a larger bet. Since the odds bet gives no advantage to either side - you or the casino - it cannot lower the house edge or raise it or lower or raise your disadvantage.
You're going over the heads of a lot of the commenters on this video. They don't get the math of the passline/odds bet vs. the place bet. They'd rather stand there and twiddle their thumbs on the come out roll when they have the advantage over the casino and then throw their chips out when the casino has the advantage.
@@skinovtheperineum1208obviously taking odds doesn’t get you EV back from the casino, but if you want $100 of action and would either get it with a $100 place bet or $25 PL + $75 odds you should definitely take into account the odds when considering what will be your expected return.
That's because its not adding up...Odds remain the same if you place a PL bet, or not. Better odds for you on the CO roll, and better for the house when it doesnt...I "get it", with what he's saying...Only other alternative, however, are hop bets; "Risk $7 to win more than 1-1": $4 on the horn, and $3 on the 7's...In the end, the odds are around even. Some CO rolls you will lose when a point is thrown, and some you will win with a 2,3,11,12, and 7...
Spoiler alert: it is not the biggest lie in craps.
The argument that the pass line bettor needs to hit the number twice vs the place bettor needing it once is wrong. Unless you are working your place bets on the come out, which I rarely see anyone do. The pass line bettor and place bettor are in the same boat, you both need that number before 7. It doesn't matter that the shooter rolled it once before, every roll is independent of the last. You both need it before the 7 comes out or you both lose. Very misleading.
So, you can place a number before the come out roll? I always thought you had to wait for the point to be established first before placing numbers. If that’s not the case, if I place an 8 before come out, and someone has a pass line bet and rolls 8, I get paid? The point is now 8. They roll 8 again we both get paid but I got paid twice?
Also, once a point is established, a pass line better has the option of wagering additional money on a bet with fair odds (a rare commodity in a casino). The odds on the five (his example) pays 3:2. The place pays 7:5. Unless you really hate money, you would rather bet the odds. The original bet only pays even money, but it's already committed.
@@billdivine9501 No, you don't have to wait for a point to be established for a place bet to be working. But if you have place bets up during the come out roll, the dealers will assume they are off. You have to tell them you want them on.
@@billdivine9501 Yes. you can place the place bets before the come out roll. (It is not customary, but you can do it. But since place bets are "not working" on the come out roll, you have to tell the dealer to "work" yours.
If I'm up, I put $25 on 4-10. Tell the dealers "working". And I hedge it with a Hop 7's for $15. I get paid $50 for 4-10, or $65 for Hop 7's.
wow...are we forgetting the seven and eleven on comeout? I think we may be. That is why the pass with odds is better smh .
Your comparison between place bets and line bets overlooks key aspects of how line bets work, especially during the come-out roll. On the come-out roll, the odds are heavily in your favor: there are 8 ways to win (rolling a 7 or 11) and only 4 ways to lose (rolling a 2, 3, or 12). The remaining outcomes establish your point, giving you a fair shot at winning on subsequent rolls. This phase is often ignored in comparisons, but it’s critical to understanding why the line bet holds its value.
You also mentioned that the odds bet is a "good bet" but argue that requiring a line bet to access it makes the line bet a bad bet. This logic is flawed. The line bet and odds bet work together-one provides access to the other. While the line bet has a house edge of 1.41%, it’s among the lowest of any bet on the table. Pairing it with the odds bet (which has no house edge) makes this combination one of the best bets in craps for minimizing the house’s advantage.
The house advantage is not subjective-it’s precise, undisputed math. It represents how much the casino is expected to win on any given bet over time. For the line bet, the house edge is well-defined and clear. Using long explanations to critique the line bet doesn’t change the math; the fairness of the payouts and the advantage of the casino are indisputable to anyone who understands craps probabilities.
In summary, while place bets offer flexibility, they’re not inherently "better" than line bets. The mechanics of the come-out roll, the low house edge of the line bet, and the strength of the odds bet make the line bet a solid choice, both mathematically and strategically. Comparing the two requires understanding their differences, not simply dismissing one based on preferences or partial arguments.
This ignores the pass line bet that has a better success rate vs fail. So any money “lost” on the odds can be made up on the 7’s hit before the point is established.
But it probably stands that you’re losing money if you are only doing one or two times the odds.
Safety bets are for people who don't really want to win
Crazy how dealers with years of experience still don't understand basic math. Dave is wrong on so many levels.
It's not that they don't understand. They want you to play the bet that is not as good as the passline with odds.
@@gregmawson4043 I don’t think David cares what people play and obviously he knows the game. From their videos they seem to lean towards the side of being aggressive and maximizing opportunity for a hot roll. If you’re aggressive with place bets then you’ll do well on a hot roll, otherwise you’re dead.
It really just comes down to the amount of risk/variance someone is willing to tolerate in a session. They all understand that pass/DP with odds is the mathematical best way to play. It’s the way I prefer to play. Sometimes I see place bettors stacking chips faster than me on a good roll where my point isn’t being hit. More often than not though, eventually they’re reaching into their wallets or walking away empty, whereas I’m usually still playing.
Remember, the guy is working in a casino for a job. That explains things
Hate to be cynical about the poor dudes abilities, but he doesn't seem to understand that over the long term you will lose the house edge on your bets, and there is NOTHING one can do to change that fact
Thus the typical place bettor will lose around 4% of his action , and the pass/5x odds bettor will lose 0.326%. Roughly 1/13ths as much loss on his action
@ I don’t think he has a motive to push the place bets. I think he prefers them due to the chance of pressing to the moon on a hot roll. He works for the casino, he doesn’t own it. Why would he care what anyone plays.
I've found out that most dealers are ignorant about craps and blackjack...
I hate this video because it completely ignores the best part of the Pass line bet: the come out.
If the difference between Pass + 5x Odds and Placing that number is similar in payout, then it's still better to play the Pass because the Pass line includes, for completely free, an extra one roll bet that pays one unit on a 7 or 11 and only loses on a 2, 3, or 12. If you are going to Place the point anyway, you may as well take advantage of that "free" one roll bet with huge player advantage by playing Pass instead.
Absolutely. You have 2:1 odds of winning on the comeout roll with a passline bet. And there are plenty of times that the 7 and/or 11 hit multiple times before the point is set.
So you need a safety net to gamble. Some of us don't. Safety bets are failing bets.
@Ramonatho if the Press bet pays the same as Pass + 5x Odds, but Pass also has a bonus one roll bet with a 2:1 player advantage, that doesn't make Pass a safety bet. It just makes it a better bet m
Let’s do some crapless videos
@@Ramonatho Define "safety bet".
Pass line and come have a 2:1 win advantage on the come outs. I don't think that can be ignored in your calculations.
Never bet the pass line when a point is established. Bet the Come and make your own point.
You guys dont understand math.
You can manage your odds to a small degree. You can take down your odds whenever you want, which is the same as taking down your place bets. You can press your odds up to the max. But the odds are limited to the table rules. If it's 5x max odds and I wanted to go 10x, I take my odds down and tell the dealer to place 10 units on whatever the point is. Dealers will sometimes try and tell you to place another $5 on your pass line bet to give you more room to press up your odds. But now you just added $5 to a bet that you cannot take down and that only pays even money.
Me personally I play only the minimum on the pass line and avoid playing on tables with a minimum bet higher than $10.
@@bigmurff Right .
Math. The ONLY REASON people say is such a good game IS BECAUSE the odds bet pays true odds, can't get better odds than true odds. That's where the good reputation comes from.
100x odds ceasars harrahs Anderson Indiana Hoosier Race park and casino. 10 dollar table, 100x odds... absolutely fairy land table.
And how often do people take max odds? 1 a shift, 1 a day, 1 a week?
PL & 2 Come bets is a better way to play than a place bettor, because you're not hosed on the PSO, as well as the point, number out rolls, which happen a lot.
Your explanation at 2:50 is wrong. You described a place bet correctly, but when you compared the place bet to the winning pass line bet, you treated the pass line+odds as if it was a put bet. A put bet does not have the expectation of the come out roll. There is a concept known as expectation. The expected loss on his pass+4x odds ($225 total bet) is about 30 cents. The expected loss on a place bet of $225 is about $9.
Basic math. Stop giving people bad info.
@@tnytdn1700 Agreed.
$225 total bet?
These are great guys, but they lose their a** just like the rest of the people
@@snakepliskin1185 of course. Craps is a negative expectation game. Point is to make bankroll last longer and entertainment cheaper. Those 5 and 9 place bets are relatively high house edge bets. Even the buy 4 and 10 have a lower edge. With high HE bets, your wins will be smaller whiles losses bigger.
@@tnytdn1700 apparently a lot of people find tossing their money in the trash to be entertainment
When you bet the 5 and the 4 with the ten times odds you should have put 275 on the place bet to match the total bet as you did with the others.
It's not about the "entrance" but the "exiti." Stay too long with any roller, and you'll get bit. The strategy of piling things on when you're playing with the casino's money is just another way to give your winnings away, if you were lucky enough to get to that point. To summarize: strategic entry, and then a quick exit.
That lower payment you are getting on the pass + odds bet over the place bet is the lower risk you have on the pass portion of the bet, (where the pass portion wins most times on 7/11 on the come out roll = lower overall risk).
One math error I think....with your "odds payout" if the point hits (only way to win the odds) you did not add the passline bet (at the 10 times odds) to the place bet ie the 4. You would place the 4 for 275 not 250. Yes, No ?
I'm a craps dealer, I always tell new players not to listen to other players (especially ours) because, 1. They will tell them to bet the bonus and prop section and do bets that they won't even do. 2. They will tell them to set the dice, throw them a certain way, throw them in a specific corner, etc. Lastly, they hustle money from them "You wouldn't have won that if I hadn't told you to bet it" etc AND THEY DON"T EVEN TELL THEM TO TAKE CARE OF THE DEALERS. I always tell new players, if you're gonna bet the line, play odds, otherwise just do place bets and stay out of no mans land.
I only play min bet on pass line if I'm the shooter. Otherwise i avoid the pass. Makes my strategy less confusing.
Only way to play craps with lowest house edge is to play pass or don’t pass with max odds. All other bets on the table are worse. This guy is no math expert
I try to hammer the teaching that I don't play the pass line. And as many times that I've said it, I still get the argument. "Why not play the pass line Max odds".
Great Job David/Dennis!
The house edge on a place bet is 10x the house edge on a pass line with odds, so I’m also with the camp of why not do that.
@Josh-ex2qc Mainly because I don't really care about the house edge. if you are only only playing 1 number and you don't Hit that number, the house edge is irrelevant, you lose all of it.
Why Not play all the numbers and give you more of an opportunity to make more...
@ If you’re going across you have a good chance of losing it all before you’ve recouped it. If you’re going to make good money on a roll that way you need to hit multiple repeaters in order to press to a meaningful level anyways which is arguably harder than just hitting a point.
But as long as people are playing a strategy they have fun with that’s the most important thing.
@@markthepoint - What does are only only mean? Does that mean that you were in such a rush to get your golden words of wisdom out to the masses that you failed (once again) to realize that your golden words of wisdom made no sense? You are the dream gambler for the House. They just love people who 'don't really care about the house edge.' In that case, why not stand there all day betting black chips on the 12? It's bound to hit sooner or later.
@@Josh-ex2qc - I imagine myself at the Borgata the night that lady rolled for over 4 hours. Having Place and Buy bets safe from harm for over 4 hours is something all Craps players dream of.
In your demo you set up the bets incorrectly. When you had an example of “2x” times odds you included the pass bet on the place bet so $25 on the line $50 odds you would place $75 on the 5 but when you demonstrated the 10x odds you put $25 on the line with $250 odds then on the place bet you only put $250 keep the same example you should put $275 on the 5 & 4 to compare true place bet to pass line and odds bet
My friends all laugh at me when I tell them taking odds is a sucker's bet. I'm going to share this video with them now. Seriously, if it was a good bet why do Casinos encourage dealers to ask you if you want to bet odds?
I have had arguments with dealers and they pretty much called me stupid
Plus you have to roll number twice to get paid
Additionally. I don’t want my line bet with odds to be anywhere near the dice are rolling.
It’s a sucker bet because it’s TIED to the line bet. Making it no better than the line bet.
This video is wrong. You can look up the pass line odds vs place bet odds in literally 15 seconds. Your friends will continue to laugh at you because they are right.
Common knowledge on 3-4-5. But 10x. It does pay. However. Sticking that $250 on odds is a chunk of change.
Right? The whole idea of odds being so great is that casinos offered 100x odds and 10x odds. But your typical gambler ain't dropping that kinda money.
I like the way you have the odds displayed on the layout with the place odds as well. You never see that. Vegas tables should do the same.
This is why if I see someone with out shoes (odds) I’ll ask if I can play their odds and if yes I make bank
That's what Jimmy the Greek used to do.
@@jpchan23 Well , you won’t make bank . But at least you don’t have the worst of it .
Assuming you aren't already on the pass line, rare for normal players.
That's also what the Captain used to do - called it the oddsmans bet.
If I want to shoot (usually just because I'm playing bubble craps) I use the don't pass, gives me the edge when it comes to making those place bets work!
Nothing you do ever 'gives you the edge'.
I do not play pass when others roll. When you are forced to it pays better when you use the odds rather than place the bet. $5 placed #10 pays $9. $5 odds pays 10. And you didn’t explain that you can also control your odds. You can remove anytime. I enjoy watching your channel, thank you
Id like to ask , lets say you have 110 inside or 220 perhaps and have a passline also
If you wanna bet more wouldnt it make sense to add money in the 6or8 for example .
Even if there not the point and they hit a few times ,wouldnt you make considerable more money than ,odds on behind the passline . Or even placing the point number .
If you place the point number instead of odds behind the pass line , and bet on another number , that number xan hit several times and increase your winnings .
As apposed to just once on a place bet point number
I only play the passline when I shoot, or, sometimes, bet the ATS. I call the passline bet when I shoot, " The price of admission ." Dealers get a laugh out of it when I say that.
You win on 7 and 11 on the come out roll, by far the best odds of winning of any bet. Place bets do not have that advantage, in fact most if the time you turn them off to avoid losing them on the come out.
I never take odds unless I’m hitting the place bets and use the winnings to play odds
This video is nonsense. Free odds has no vig, period.
A few years ago, you could buy the 4 and 10 with no vig at Downtown Grand.....
Honestly never thought of it that way. Anytime you not contracted in on a bet is always a good time.
Why? You don’t know when to pull down any more than you know what the next # will be.
@@slloyd9892 In that case , why bet at all ?
Best way to profit is to play all numbers max that you can afford to bet, spread your number hits to all numbers on table and learn how to roll 5 rolls without hitting 7. Then take all your money and run.
If you guys have trouble comparing pass line + odds to place bets, compare a put bet with odds to a place bet. Because that's equivalent to what he's really talking about anyway.
If you compare the 7:6 place bet to the put bet with 6:5 odds, you need at least 5x odds for the put bet to break even. If you're allowed higher than 5x odds, then you should actually do the put bet instead of the place bet, assuming you want to bet at least 6x the minimum bet.
But I want to say, not all casinos max out your odds at 4 times the pass line bet. I thought the 10x at my casino was actually low.
The win on come out roll 7 makes up for the difference in pay.
You can play the 7/11 on a come out roll without being on the line.
@ yea but those are one roll bets
@ and? So is a pass line bet if you are trying to win on 7/11
@ hop the 7/11 and an any craps and it’s the same as playing the line. Except you won’t lose on the 2/3/12 and the any craps keeps the money up on 7/11
@@stevenfields4871 you’re not trying to win per se, but betting the pass line on those rolls more than makes up for the lower pay when a number hits as stated in the video.
The reality is the difference between placing the 6/8, buying the odds on the 4/10 where you pay only on a win and a pass line bet is around .1 to .2%. 1.48 v 1.57 (6/8) and 1.67 (4/10). So yes the pass line bet is the "best" bet on the table, but if you want to get more action or just want more control over your bet then focusing on the 4/6/8 and 10 makes sense.
I'm going to watch this video because I love the content; but before I do, I've never considered the odds bet the "best bet" i just know it's considered the ONLY bet at the casino that does not give a house edge because it pays true odds. But I've learned not to play it.
Ok on to the video. Always good stuff Casino Quest
@@joes2608 If you’ve learned not to play it you haven’t learned anything . In fact you’ve only been misled . I recommend doing a little more research before you give this video any credence .
Mathematically it is the best bet in the house. Not everybody plays the pass line though. Some people like the freedom or simplicity of placing numbers.
to win in craps survive until a hot roll happens, people will say each roll independent from last but experience has taught me trends happen and those blind to them miss amazing opportunities in craps
A note should be added that This only applies if you aren't rolling the dice
no comps on odds bets
That should tell you it’s a good bet, not the opposite. They comp slot players a lot, play slots if you want comps.
I only play tables, and I follow how they are rating me on my trips. A good casino always takes care of me on comps.
I like the Wizard of Oz. I like the Tin Man.
Same with come bets. Kind of same in field, most are Flat bets.
i prefer dont pass once point is established its more likely to crap out then the point to win
You can take down your odds bet(s) at anytime. 'Off on the come out' is done frequently,
It's understood that Come bet odds are off on the Comeout. You have to say they're working to change that.
I only play the pass line when I shoot. I call it, "The price of admission". When playing the pass line, I have no shoes and bet my inside numbers. My odds are in the place bet. You get a shooter, and that place bet can be pressed to far exceed the pass line odds bet.
@@mikewdice7876 So you’re saying you like giving the house a bigger edge than you actually need to . Makes perfect sense.
Question, why are you paying 1.5 odds on the odds bet instead of 7 to 5?
Because it's an odds bet that pays true odds of 3/2 not a place bet that pays 7/5
This was good. I forgot I can still take place bets on my point as a secondary bet . I forgot I can do that If my point's a five and if the shooter's rolling I can just do an added place. Bet if I wanted that's a good idea. I don't even have to put the pass if he's rolling
The video forgets to mention that you have a 2:1 advantage on the come out roll.
If so, why not just hop the horn, and 7's...?
Sort of. You win 8 times in 36. You lose 4 times in 36. So you are up 4 units in 36 rolls that do not make a point. However, the remaining 24 rolls make a point with a negative expectation. If you do the make, those 24 rolls will lose slightly more than 4 units. If the house simply let you take down your line bet in the same way you can take down odds, you would have a 2 10 1 edge. But that is not how the game is played.
@@GRice999 It's the same thing. A pass line bet is a contract bet. You cant remove it. Like stated, the only "advantage" is on the come out roll. After a point has been established, the advantage switches back to the casino. VS place bets that can be turned on/off during a roll.
@@GRice999 I would argue otherwise...2/12 pays 30-1, 3/11 pays 15-1, and any 7 pays 4-1... I always play these on the come out roll ($10 hop bet vs $10 pass line bet), and am ahead for the simple fact that the 7 comes out in proportion to the 2,3 or 12... A simple case where the math doesn't = the reality of game play...It just doesn't add up. How can the pass line be an equal %, when the same # must be rolled twice...? It cant be correct. Odds % is based on the OG come out roll, alone, and not on rolling a point twice before the 7 comes. This is what they are arguing. That is the casino's "lie"... Anytime a point is established, the odds switch back in the casino's favor, due to the law of averages. Where as, the odds you lose when placing a come out hop, you gain in a higher payout %.
@@brentfarvors192 2 and 12 pays 30:1, but the fair price is 35:1. That's a huge house advantage of 13.9%! 3 and 11 pays 15:1, but the fair price is 17:1. That's a huge house advantage of 11.1%! Any seven pays 4:1, but the fair price is 5:1. That's a huge house advantage of 16.9%! Those are all sucker bets, as are the horn bets. The place bets used in the video have a house advantage ranging from 1.52%-6.67%. There are no ways to make a combination of those bets and do better than betting the pass or come line bet, which is only a 1.4% house advantage. And the odds bet has no house advantage. Twist those numbers and yourself like a pretzel all you want, but you will always do worse in the long run compared to betting the pass line and taking the odds after the point is established.
monsweko below is correct. The pass line with odds is not the same as place bets and the two cannot be compared. The advantage for the pass line bet on the come out roll has to be figured in. He is completely ignoring that. (again see monsweko below).
Great way to get around a place like South Point that only has double odds.
incorrect. The reason they have only double odds is because they have no edge on these bets so why let you bet more and possibly win more? You don't correct a bad situation by making it worse. Your double odds lowers the house edge against you to approximately 0.60%. Why would you, in protest to only being allowed to play double odds, then turn the odds against you from 0.60 to 1.52% on 6 and 8, 4% on the 5 and 9 and 6.67% on the 4 and 10? Numbers don't lie. People do.
Passline and odds bets get in the way of the dice as well of the shooter
I like to take everything straight up until I have a win while placing what hits, including the seven because it's all about the luck.
If I bet $100K on the PL and PB 6 & 8 with an average 1.45% HA, that'd be $1450 for the house, whereas with 2X odds on the pass line at 0.6% HA = $600 to the house. With a tiny budget, it could mean playing twice as long with 2X odds instead of with 2X place bets. But for a quarter table on a slim budget, I'd be thinking about $30 on the PL and $15, $20, or $25 on the odds.
Takes away the benefit of the bet when you factor the pass line bet.
Remember when Binions had 100X odds?.....
yes. and I remember Binions also had $3.00 minimum, no maximum!
You aren't comparing apples to apples. If you have a pass line bet of $25 @3/4/5 on a 5 you can only control what you do with the $100 odds bet and you can't pick up your pass line bet. You can put 100 on odds that pay 150. A 100 place bet on the 5 pays 140. Are you shilling for casino bets that have a 4% house edge vs a bet that has no house edge?
Does the same apply for odds on the dark side?
yes.
at the 8 minute mark and am having trouble digesting the terrible math. The only universe where this logic makes sense is if the pass line vs the pass line with odds is two different bets. The pass line coming out is NOT a different bet once the point is established. It is the same exact bet. Moreover it has the edge coming out and is a dog after coming out built in and mixed into it. Pass line is an odds favorite to win 7/11 coming out. This SAME bet then becomes a dog once point is established. We mitigate this dog after the point is established by placing FREE odds where the house has no edge against us and we get paid true and correct odds on the point. When avoiding the pass line you NEVER have a chance at being a favorite to win and are an immediate dog and not only that, you do NOT get paid true and correct odds when you do happen to hit. Pass line odds against you without free odds placed after the point is 1.41% As you place FREE ODDS this percentage is lowered with each free odds dollar wagered. Placing any number is a dog immediately and stays a dog, namely 6.67% against you on the 4 and 10, there is a 4% house edge against you on the 5 and 9, and a 1.52% house edge against you on the 6 and 8. If placing FREE ODDS was bad for you as a player the casino would let you do it without a pass line bet, and they DO NOT. But do they let you place any number whether the puck is off or on? YES, YES they do and that is because it is bad for you and good for them. You can even turn those place bets on coming out and this isn't because it is good for you. Are your FREE ODDS bets working coming out? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Numbers don't lie, people do.
oh man..... while we can agree 25 pass with 50 odds pays less than $75 as a place bet...... how about all the times the 25 pass line bet won on the come out roll??? Subtract that out and the pass line is better again. Did you know how place bets were calculated? for any place bet, think of every nickel as $1 pass line with $4 odds ($1 flat with 5 odds on 6 or 8)
is why I don't play the pass line unless I'm shooting
Min bet passline and put majority of your money on odds thats what you do.
Dennis at the Westgate was awesome!! Also, Jet at Binions was great!!
Can you place the point number after it is established?
You can place any # at any time except on the come out roll..
Hell, he says you get the same payout on the place as on the pass with 4x odds as (true) without the "ups and downs" of the comeout roll. Also true, but the "ups" happen twice as often as the "downs".
Bottom line: $25 pass line bet has an expected loss of 35 cents. The odds bet has an expected loss of 0. The place bet on the five has an expected loss of $5. That's a factor of over 14.
Craps has been around for centuries. You haven't discovered a "better way".
This video is a banger! I loved learning and how you got real and raw with it! The cold hard facts about craps! Thanks, guys!
This is an April Fool’s joke? That’s not how the math works. The pass bet is already paying much less than it should once a point has been established since lots of the winners of the pass bet are during the come out roll. This only holds true if you stupidly put down a pass bet once a point has been established, and totally breaks down on the dark side.
are you allowed to place a pass line bet after the point has been established?
Funny thing is, a put bet (pass or come bet placed after the comeout roll) with 4x odds pays the same on 5 (or 9) as a place bet. But since you have thrown away you chance to win on a comeout 7 or 11, your expected loss goes from 35.25 cents to $5.
@@Chekmate99 Yes you are. But you should only do it if you really, really hate money.
on the front part of 3,4,5x odd you used the total bet (passline and odd) in place bet as comparison, but on 10 x odd you just putting the odd money in place bet for comparison.
i preach this to people all thre time Best example is my local $10 table, most people play a $10 pass, but on a 4,or 10 you can do $30 odds, so if it wins, your $40 wager wins you a total of $70. Nice! But do the math, that same $40 wager will pay $80, minus a $2 vig, for a total win of $78. Now, I ask you, would you rather have your $40 wager win $70 or $78? It’s the same $40 at risk, but you win more on the place than the pass line with max odds , AND, you can manipulate the place bet as you wish, press it, regress it, or take it down entirely. The pass line portion of a “line bet” is a contract bet that must remain once a point is established
Sounds pretty much like summary of the video we just watched..
@@chrisp.9172 And just like the video, it ignores the comeout roll wins on 7 and 11 (tiwce as likely as the loses on 2, 3 and 12).
The analysis fails because of the comeout pass line. But I've never been in love with odds, cause who's got money to play 10x odds. I was a dealer. People rarely bet 10x odds.
What's next??? David talks up how the BIG 6 and BIG 8 are also good bets because you can directly control your bets.....
when you went to the 10x odds, you didn't keep the place bet = passline +odds, you only were putting 250 out on the place, in 3/4/5 examples you were matching investment as a place bet. Shouldn't it have been the 250+25 so 275 out as the place?
the pass line is a better bet mathematically, but the place bet is a better bet in practice.
@@holymoly8718 That makes zero sense . Are you claiming that the math is somehow wrong ? If one player is consistently fading 1.4 % and the other 3-4 % and they’re betting the same amount it doesn’t take a genius to know who will do better over the long haul in practice.
Because the number hit once you think it's less likely to hit again? There's actually no mathematical basis for that. Regardless , I would much rather bet on numbers that are hitting recently vs those that are not. Pass and come and give you the opportunity to win on 7/11 at a 2-1 advantage. That fact is usually left out by line bet haters. Once your point is established, you do have a bad contract Bet, but taking max free odds dilutes the house advantage to where its as good as a place bet.
You guys are always entertaining but your explanation of the house's edge on the pass line was skewed to make your point. Even if you couldn't take odds, the house's edge on the a line is still mathematically better than any other bet on the table. That being said I prefer place bets myself.
Is it really? All depends on ones perspective of hop bets on the come out...The real advantage to the player in a pass line bet, is that it only loses with a 2,3,12... The disadvantage is that its a contract bet...
@@brentfarvors192 @brentfarvors192 It really is.
I take a crap cheque on the come-out to insure my pass-line bet and the dealer bet that I place on the side of it when I shoot. It's a terrible bet, but I like to bet it. So I "doed" it anyway.
Can you address don’t pass odds?
Lol people are so silly. The come out bet is a different bet than the odds bet. Play the pass line its fun cheap and easy. It over commits you once it becomes a point. You can only play odds after the point is set. Most place points are off during the come out bet (they can be turned on at any time). Its seen as bad luck to have place and buy bets on during a come out roll because on the pass line a 7 wins. Losing all your bets when the table wins feels bad.
You can diverse your bet on the numbers. Maximizing the odds bet lowers the amount you can diverse. Its also commited after it becomes a point. Cant be pressed and tends to feel stuck on a long roll. The odds on any roll is the same for every roll tables have no memories. After the come out bet its best to treat the pass line as a number. This is because after the come out roll thats all the odds are just another place bet.
Tldr it seems somehow most commentors have lost the point of the video. Diverting your money is better than being stuck and tied to a bet made in a previous round. Craps is a dice game and is more about numbers than the entertaining circus bets that can be made. Argubably hard numbers pay the best.
With the 10x odds explanation, you were only betting 250 on the place bets instead of 275.
The math is clear. Pass line plus odds have to lowest house edge... But lowest house edge doesn't mean it's the best bet.
Since all bet are loosing bet anyways... The best bet is the one that has the best $ to fun ratio.
Just enjoy the game!
@@alexandrehuot3326 that is true but the issue is that the video doesn’t say that. The video strongly implies that the pass line is not significantly better bet in terms of house edge than place bets, which is simply wrong. I would have no issue if the video said “yeah sure pass line is better financially in the long term but it’s boring so I play something else”. My favorite bet is the Make em All which is lighting money on fire, but I enjoy watching it burn.
I like craps because it's fun! Especially when a shooter gets hot! I once held the dice for about 45 minutes at binions. I wasn't betting very much, I kept rolling conventional #'s ( which I'm least confident) I don't press or really know how to bet, (they had 100x odds too) They stalled the table , at one point the Casino manager( only guy with a blue suit) came down an watched my roll. I made $600 + imagine if I knew how to bet. Probably $10k + out on the table when I finally went out. $3 min. Then they wouldn't pass me the dice back if you believe it..
@@alexandrehuot3326 That is a point well taken . But it’s also fun to be able to gamble a little longer than the guy giving up 10% to the house . Just saying .
Place bets are terrible because the "RAKE" for the casino is more than 5%. I never want to make a bet that bad. Thank you for showing us that the odds bet is just as bad as a place bet.
@@michaelsumner8223 Too bad he didn’t show that at all .
Hard to compare. At 5x odds, your flat pass and odds likely have similar rake.
@ Dumb . There is zero rake on an odds bet . What are you talking about ?
@@michaelblankenau6598 I mean when you factor in the flat pass, as there is no such bet that is odds alone. The reason they say 100x odds is so good is because the more of your pass/odds is composed of odds, the less the rake.
I love parlaying the pass line
Same with don't pass odds?
Doesn’t anybody do put-bets anymore? You didn’t mention it! Back in the day with 100x odds and low table minimums - that was the deal. Pays more than place bets and no buy vig to mess with… unless you consider the base put the vig, sort of.
Why not just play on Dont Pass and Pass Line, then take odds?
That is the reason for push on 12. Aha.
This is insane. When you win your place or buy bet. You don't get paid in true odds. When you win your pass line with odds. You do not get paid in true odds. The house always has an edge. Long term you are a loser. Period.
X3-5 odds are still better if you’re ignoring the place bet
I have always thought putting money on pass line + odds payed less than if I put the money on the number itself but if someone is hot I would put money there (maybe 20 or 40 bucks or a bit more). In the same vein - card counting in Blackjack seems based on a false premise - the more higher cards in the shoe -the more you can win! Doesn't having more high cards in the shoe means the house can get 20s or 21s more often than before??? I only play blackjack once in a while (if crap tables are cold) - but never bought that concept - I would often see the dealer get 20s and 21s in a row and the players not many good hands regardless of what the mix in the shoe was. I only play for fun - maybe once or twice a month - but enjoy the various youtube theories and strategies - which almost never seem to work in the casino! Craps and Blackjack seems mostly luck - and I enjoy it either way.
NO. More Higher cards (10's) in the deck favor the player, as long as the player is playing Basic Strategy. Card counting can give you the advantage over the casino.
The difference is the coming out 7 advantage.
RIP Jokers Wild 100x odds. Glad I got to play there before they closed the tables. I actually have a stack or two of the quarter chips I was slowly collecting to make a set
yes. i played there too - and its sister casino at the time, the El Dorado.
When you place numbers, you can never win on 7.
I bet the dont pass because i know i can't pick up my pass line bet after the come out but i can pick up my bet from the dont pass meaning the casino doesn't want the action proving it to be a good bet
True. Just depends on how you look at it. On the comeout, pass line has 2 to 1 odds of winning, whereas Don't pass has 3 to 8 odds of winning.... On a single roll, pass line is a great bet, but sucks after the point. If you reached an established point, the Don't pass is the best bet on the table.
Ignoring the 7/11 pass line winners (happens about 20% of the time) and losers (2/3/12, happens about 12% of the time) misses the point of the people saying it’s the best bet to make. 1.41% house edge (lowered by odds on the total bet) vs. higher house edge place bets is always a better bet. Another advantage of pass/odds is that it encourages the gambler to collect profits rather than press like a crazy degenerate (ahem 😂). BUT, place bets reduce volatility versus taking max odds in most cases.
Hitting the number twice rather than just once is just a fallacy because every roll is an independent event (I felt David hesitate to espouse this because he knows better).
This video is why we need the dislikes back
The big advantage the place bet has it that it can hit multiple times but only lose once. A come/pass bet is one and done.
what if I tell you "true odds" is not true odds. its a big lie
This is all incorrect. He should focus on the Vig of each individual bet.
Interesting stuff. I always thought that the Pass Line bet wasn't a good bet (Max Odds are obviously the good portion of the bet). You articulated it much better than I could have. The fact that the casino forces you to the Pass or Don't Pass in order to shoot the dice would suggest that it's in their favor, too!
The video is interesting and completely wrong. I mean flat earth level wrong.
@russlehman2070 why is that? Can you please provide more details to enlighten us?
Of course every bet besides odds the house takes a rake. Pass line is actually a good bet. On comeout you have 2 to 1 odds of winning vs losing, then much worse odds of winning with a point. But overall I think house only has 1.4% advantage, that is really good, a small rake.
@capoman1 isn't it true that the pay out for the Pass Line isn't a good bet, it's the true odds allowed behind it that are a good bet, no?
@@dr.options Well odds alone will always be the "best paying" because true odds is the best you can expect... But again, house rake on pass line is only 1.4%. That is better than the rake on place bets and buy bets and field. So no, it is not true that pass line is a horrible bet.
I don't have a video to suggest that shows how to calculate odds. But I was a dice dealer, and even in training, we'd hand calculate odds to see how much rake the house took.
Here's a couple examples of how to do that yourself.
Let's consider and aces prop bet. There's 1 way to roll aces and 36 combinations. So TRUE ODDS would pay us 36 to 1. We can see the house rake since they only pay 30 to 1.
If you have a pass line bet, and the point is 4. 3 ways to roll a 4 and 6 ways to roll 7. So your odds on that pass line bet is 1/2. True odds payout would be 2 to 1, you can see the house rake as they pay 1 to 1.
So once on a point, your pass line has "worse odds" or a bigger rake on the outside numbers. And is much better on 6 and 8.
But flat pass has that 2 to 1 odds of winning vs losing on comeout so makes up for some of the rake, and the overall analysis of pass line odds is difficult.
Long story short. The pass line is a good bet.
Thank you been thinking about that for awhile
I really need to take your course
You’re ignoring the come out roll. Odds are in favor of winning the pass line bet on the come out 8 wins versus 4 losses, the other rolls (numbers 24 rolls). The profit isn’t very big but you don’t include it in your analysis. Also every place bet you make has a negative return. Comparing things the way to do is faulty.