Some People Have Problems With The Word 'Or' - Ep. 5.321
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2019
- Some people have a hard time distinguishing between the words "or" and "and" when it comes to statutes. And that's a problem.
www.lehtoslaw.com - Авто та транспорт
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Mark Twain
Steve you have a great channel. I was on the sheriffs department for 25+ years and I have had the pleasure of dealing with these idiots. We have had to break out windows, because they refused to step out of the vehicle , we have had officers seriously injured during traffic stops and more. As soon as you walk up to the car and ask for their license & registration you get the famous line........” I was not driving..... I was traveling “. I remember a plate off of a sovereign citizens car........Not4hire. They make these plates up, along with the other frivolous paperwork they tie the courts up with. They are on the FBI’s list for law enforcement to be cautious about. I am so glad that I am retired. Please take care and stay healthy and safe. Thank you for your years as an attorney.
I believe the law generally refers to "operating" a motor vehicle, not necessarily "driving". They can argue that they weren't driving, but in the driver's seat in a moving vehicle, they are operating it.
@Darcy Plett Thank you very much. The last two years are the reason that I retired. Thanks again. Please stay safe and healthy.
I used to teach a class on tax code and I found it necessary to address the definition of "and" and "or" early in the class because a surprising number of people who were subjected to public "education" didn't understand the difference.
Unless I have it wrong , “must do this and that” means you need to do both. “Must do this or that” means you must do at least one of them.
In the novel/movie "The Hundred Year Old Man...", the protagonist's father declared himself a sovereign citizen, not subject to the laws of the government. Unfortunately, he did this in Russia, so they shot him. Here we're more civil, so we just laugh at them.
reading half of this paragraph comment I started laughing... I already knew
@@africacarey already knew? Nobody seemed to care about your little reading, and you are a lemming
Ok...Steve, you just took me back about 60 years to my childhood....using my Mother's words exactly! "It's stupid, don't DO it!"....Granted, I had a LOT of stupid ideas when I was a child....like I could fly like superman, all I had to do was make a cape out of mom's drapes.....or dozens of other ideas that I somehow thought were feasible at the time. Thanks for a hilarious ( for me at least) flashback!!
Steve, you usually make my limited brain have to work.
...and that's a great thing.
You make me exercise my flabby, out of shape, mind by making me think and I thank you for that.
The U.S. sells bonds. Therefore, they must be a corporation, which means they have to operate on maritime law. This makes me a boat captain who doesn't need a license to operate my car, so long as I'm wearing a pirate hat and travel the roads in an attempt to harpoon a white Prius that got away from me years ago. Call me Ishmael. But don't use all caps because I don't want to contract with you. I did that once, ordering a bunch of tapes for one cent. It didn't turn out well. Canceling the tapes, not being called Ishmael. But I digress...
LoL! Does this make white semi trucks your white whale?
Sovereign citizens are notorious for cherry picking the Constitution and using outdated definitions from Black's Law Dictionary - and swearing they know the law better than law enforcement officers and even judges!
Thank you Steve for this information. Like you said: dealing with them is like playing a game of verbal whack-a-mole.
From a distance my three favorite types of people are sovereign citizens, flat earthers, and anyone that drinks pee to cure cancer. So much wiz dom
As Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid".
arlen raasch
it is funny, but I disagree I think that stupid can be fixed. sometimes.
To quote Adam Savage, "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
"Tell us where the talking llama is, and we'll burn your house to the ground!"
--a kid's movie demonstrating the difference between 'and' and 'or.'
Emperor's New Groove in criminally underrated.
I know a young boy who, after his family discussed identifying a certain way, announced "I identify as a pregnant giraffe".
Heard one in the Doctor's office today. Talking to another man how the government has no right to make you get a drivers license. Turns out Mr. Sovereign citizen had to wait for a ride because the government "stole his car," to keep him from driving without a license or insurance. SMH.
The ones who fall for it are beyond crazy.
My career plan is to move to an area with a high concentration of these people and open an auto glass shop. I will stock no windshields, only driver’s door glass. Pre 2000 models, of course.
I bring this up whenever someone claims a criminal penalty is cruel. The constitution forbids punishment that is cruel AND unusual. If it is the usual punishment for a certain crime, it is not unconstitutional even if it also seems cruel.
I like how he is wearing a shirt with a quote that sovereign citizens like to use while debunking them
Hundo is folded and tucked between books on the top shelf above the Moosejaw bumpersticker.
These arguments travel me crazy!
We find these arguments fascinating. Matters not who is correct. It's interesting to see how ppl can spin / interpret things thru Egocentric predicament or phaneron.
As a sovereign citizen I have established my property line as a sovereign nation. I have my own constitution. I am divided about paying taxes to myself. 😀
Man, I hate stupid people! Sounds like you're not a fan either, Mr. Lehto... Common sense isn't so common these days.
AND you can't fix stupid!!
I'm wondering when the cops will start telling the SCs that traveling doesn't require a car.
Horse and buggy work.
There was a group of these people that used to meet at the Denny's where I used to live. Overhearing some of their nonsense just made me shake my head.
Steve,
They also have a hard time with other more complex and obscure words such as "yes" "no" "if" "but" "is" "the" "good" "bad" and "LAW".
Thanks Steve, you are like having a smart friend to answer questions that crazy people believe.
TLDR: the US code in question is being quoted in reverse by some. The United States in it's entirety is not a corporation, but certain Federal corporations are the United States government - at least when it comes to the law. (The FDIC being Steve's simple example)
(15)“United States” means-
(A)
a Federal corporation;
(B)
an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
(C)
an instrumentality of the United States.
This is the code you are speaking of
28 usc 3002 (15)
Lehto: “the word ‘or’ is a disjunctive”
Sovereign citizens : “Yur face is disjunctive”
😬
Thanks interesting video. 👍 SovCit is one of the most ignorant conspiracy theories in my opinion.
Many of the people that believe it can barely be said to have a basic vocabulary. It seems like most a habitual tendency for DUI and an inability to take responsibility for any of their own actions.
If the United States is a corporation, it's been a LONG damn time since they turned a profit!!
Sorry to say but they do look up cafr reports
America makes a profit every year
@@johnhawk9321 Perhaps do an internet search of the phrase "USA budget deficit". Either somebody is "cooking the books" to a degree I can't imagine, or you have a very unique definition of "turning a profit".
They have been turning a profit on the tax payers cafr report is the true budget. Every state has 4 or 5 of these reports they hide profit from the americans the gov. Own banks they own almost everything i found the cafr school is very interesting they guy who has the web sight tells you how to read the reports
The budget is what they want you to know thats how they con more money out of us like the lottery most of the mobey goes into a fund never to be seen check it out for yourself and its kinda interesting on how many goverments their is
then the SovCits turn to "quantum grammar" and the whole naval law shenanigans.
Hi Steve, Here in Finland we have an old saying for these kind of peoples that they "read like the devil reads the Bible" ( lukea kuin piru raamattua)
Steve, you are the best.i really enjoy your videos and listening to an educated person on law
Keep up the great work
What most people fail to understand is that the word "corporation" was in use long before it was ever applied to business or industry, and it simply means a group of people acting together. In fact, a quick internet search for that word turns up this definition (from Google): a group of people elected to govern a city, town, or borough.noun: municipal corporation; plural noun: municipal corporations.
In this particular case, the corporation being referred to is a Federal one. Of course, this probably doesn't matter to most of the people who try to use these codes to get out of paying the consequences for their crimes, because they don't want to pay the consequences for their crimes. It's basically the whole point.
In some New England states, Maine is a good example, you will see "Unincorporated" townships on alot of maps. In Maine they will come up as TR-XX as the name. I don't know if this is correct but an incorporated townships just means a chartered town with a charter, and local government, Selectmen etc etc. I think Steve stumbled on a Sov Cit UA-cam video and had to rant about their craziness lol.
Kelly Robinson As near as I can tell, an unincorporated town has no local government or officials. It's basically just a bunch of people who live near each other and who don't belong to any kind of self-governing body other than the state and federal governments.
@@nymalous3428 Does not require building permits?
@@maxwebster7572 "Any powers not given to the Federal government or to the various states, reside with the People." So I suppose that could fall under state jurisdiction.
@@nymalous3428 Certain people desire to build in such locations. I am one of them but for different reasons.
Some1 like yourself needs to be a JUDGE, i really appreciate your transparency & content.
Oh course the SovCits would respond to your explanation by saying; "I Do Not Consent!" By the way, I love your T-shirt.
One essential point in all of the argument over the U.S. Corporation debate is the meaning of the word "corporation." According to Merriam-Webster, below are 2 applicable meanings that could clear up what some perceive as the only meaning of corporation (a profit-making body). The following, I feel, better represent the meaning of "U.S. Corporation":
1) A body formed and authorized by law to act as a single person although constituted by one or more persons and legally endowed with various rights and duties including the capacity of succession
2) An association of employers and employees in a basic industry or of members of a profession organized as an organ of political representation in a corporative state
Doing well, thank you! Your description of the inclusive or is unimpeachable. :)
Edifying
I had a crazy roomate that thought he had a sovereign right to drive his motorhome, without license plates or insurance.
I forget his argument.
Actually wished for the day he got pulled over and tried to argue with the cops.
You can't use the law you say doesn't apply to you to address wrongs done to you. Lien's against the title to land, travel on roads built by taxes you refuse to pay, or protection from assault offered by police officers who protect you. The law doesn't care if you believe in it or not which becomes apparent when the cuffs are placed on your wrists.
Great and Thanks.
When dealing with this type of individuals just remember what Ron White once said...."You can't fix stupid."
I realize this is from a couple years ago, but I just watched it. Anyway, this reminds me of discussions I’ve seen too often in newspaper comment areas. Some people have ideas about the meanings of words and will tell you you’re wrong instead of looking up the word to see if there’s a different meaning. I think in general some people don’t realize that communicating requires cooperation. The writer has to try to express themselves clearly, but a reader also has a responsibility to try their best to understand what the writer meant, including considering alternate meanings of words.
10:52 - 10:55 National Railroad Passenger Corporation ... better known as Amtrak if I am correct. Actually learned that from a documentary on the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 locomotive, where it talked about the corporate hands the locomotives changed hands to/from over the decades they were in service (Pennsylvania Railroad -> Penn Central -> Amtrak, Conrail, and NJ Transit)
Exactly what I was going to say. Most people probably haven't heard of the NRPC, but I suspect many have heard of Amtrak.
I love that you delved deep into the SovCit arguments but it comes down to the fact that they want to place themselves beyond any authority at all. I imagine there are many countries where their arguments would get them imprisoned or shot without any due process.
Its about where authority comes from.
Thanks Steve!
I had a talk with a highway patrolman about Sov Cits today. He arrested one, and the Sov sued him for violating his constitutional rights hah. He had to have the Attorney General (If I remember correctly) come and defend him
Lmao that's awesome
I actually enjoy the dry reading of legal text. people shouldn't be afraid to read a statute or code as many times as it takes to have a full understanding of the inclusions and exclusions. if code enforcement is saying you're in violation of something read the statute with them, sometimes they have misunderstood the application of the law. I've had that happen. I've noticed attorneys will also read code several times to process its application.
I hear what you're saying, now.
The U.S. could possibly be a Corporation, but that would be ridiculous to think that.
Gotcha!
Among the many tasks that my job entails, one of them is programming. When programming, it is imperative to understand OR, AND, EXCLUSIVE OR, NOT, and NOT AND. You can quickly end up in a pickle if you don't set up your logical comparators correctly. Guess what! You can't change what they mean in the software, you can only change the code. If you don't like the law, petition to have it changed!
Fun fact: this t-shirt grants you legal immunity
I wish sovcits were simply as confused as I was when, as a 12 year old, I found the word *intercourse* in the dictionary meant the interconnection of railroad cars. Sadly, it's worse than that.
When your right arm moves toward center the meaning of the shirt's text changes to lawyerly advice: DO NOT CONSENT. A crease eats the "I."
dude.. it's all futile. If sovereign citizens could be persuaded by logic and reason, they never would have been a sovereign citizen to begin with.
If government was truly a corporation, they would have been put of business decades ago.
In Digital Electronics, OR will be true if one or more of the choices is true. XOR is used when only one choice can be true.
on occasion I've had to remind people to read all the words, sometime it makes a difference
I love your love of T-Shirt's. And concur
Is the argument true about a speed limit sign that is states "when children are present" does not apply when there is only a single child around since the definition of children means more than one child? It seems like grammar is the most important thing about laws.
As it was back in 1726 (see Gulliver's Travels)
“That’s stupid, so don’t do it!” Love your humor!
Conjunction junction, what's your function? Hooking up words and phrases and clauses...
curse you, i hadent thought of this since i was a small child
Lawyers or liars? Yes! There is SCOTUS case law saying the opposite of what he says. He is a BAR member. For example the right to travel in an automobile without a license upon the public highways has a significant amount of case law that has never been overturned!.
Taking your (literal) word for it, I will note that right to TRAVEL IN an automobile without a license is very different from the right to DRIVE an automobile without a license. So even if you are technically correct, you're not correct about what you think you are.
Ok so to me what he says is bases on logic and I am a logical thinker. Nothing you say addresses anything illogical in his argument you attack the messenger not the .message so immediately I have a problem with you credibility
@@MD-vs9ff They then say they are not driving a car because it is a vessel. (Yes, like a maritime vessel.) They really believe this nonsense and are totally deluded.
Yeah, being a passenger in an automobile doesn't require any license, but being the person behind the wheel operating the auto does require having a valid driver's license.
I'm not driving, officer, I'm promulgating.
Thank you for rendering legalese into lay person language :)
Now where do I find all the books and/of things like Court procedure and precedence online? Can't just go by the codes as many of them appear to be written ambiguous with the intent and purpose of being interpreted by humans anyway...
Oh , and that slash I put up there, I haven't seen slashes in law books but I ment and would read the said slash as "and and an or, as in to mean either or both with the intent and Spirit of covering all my bases in all circumstances in perpetuity"
Love your channel, thank you for putting legal terms at a level we all can understand. I call it “Fisher Price” because that’s a level anyone can comprehend
Potentially dangerous Coppa confusion here.
You can not drive while smoking marijuana or consuming alcohol....unless you are sovereign citizen who is traveling.
Lets play with this post... * * You can not drive while smoking marijuana or consuming alcohol * * .. Yes one CAN perform this action. LOL. Unless they have no hands or arms.. One will pay the price. But it can still be done .
Smoked weed longer than I have had a lic to drive. I'll smoke it like a cig driving down the street. Haven't even been pulled over in 15yrs. If I get busted at this point fk it. I'll deal with the consequences. Then I'll be doing it without a license or insurance.
Are some / all states, cities, counties incorporated? I recall reading about newly incorporated cities, specifically in CA, and wondered if that is similar to a business incorporating.
Great video! What I've been perplexed by, however, is the "Live Birth Trust" fiction. I'd love to hear more about this delusion sometime.
Sovereign citizens remind me of my T-shirt that says:
STUPID SHOULD HURT
All this means is that for the purposes of debt collections, the federal government has all the rights and powers as any business corporation. Glad you also emphasized 'context' in this discussion.
Thank you. I look forward to a post about Shall or May. :)
I wish YT still showed dislikes so I could see all the 'sovereign citizens'
Steve, thank you oh so much for this explanation. I have a neighbor that believes in this sovereign citizen crap and we get into some interesting "discussions" in the patio, over multiple beers. This has provided me with some (a lot!!) of information to use during his next rant against the government.
Also, Steve, the problem is not so much with the word "or" but with the brain dead a-holes that are the collective called Sovereign Citizens.
I think identifying the grammatical problems are a valuable step to identifying a learning disability that is less drastic than the kind that get kids held back in school.
Steve good video I watch it as I was cleaning semi-auto rifles in my basement. No I’m not a wack job .I just like shooting and collecting gun. Again good video well defined
You just cant argue with crazy. Great explanation of this issue, but the sovcits wont believe you.
That's a great technique to read the last thing in the list first to see if the list is and or or. I was always having to read the list twice.
"...only Russians have mastered nesting doll technology" Steve, please. This is how wacko theories start! XD
Sovereign citizens have the strange ability to weave in and out of state and federal laws as it suits them. Must be nice to pick and choose. In the matter of governments acting as corporations, I think I would add that corporations Cannot serve as governments and lawmaking entities. BUT governments CAN act as corporations in terms of money transactions and legal court cases. You explained it well in the video.
The sovereign citizen crowd are very scary in there interactions with police. About 10 years ago, I was asked to consult on a the production of a training video for law enforcement officers on how to deal with a sovereign citizen they encounter, pull over, etc. The problem is that these encounters often very quickly escalate to violence.
The police are the ones that are scary. with there legal loopholes to assist people who are doing nothing
@@TheBooban Exactly. Thus the training for the police.
Very well done explanation video!
"Nesting doll technology" 😂
One of the definitions for corporation is, "any group of persons united or regarded as united in one body" so their argument is moot.
My favorite legal word is "shall". Many people take that as just a suggestion.
The term... * * Shall * * ... Exactly... We took shall as a suggestion also, till we spoke w/ a lawyer who clarified the intent in use.
You are either a sovereign or you are a citizen but you can’t be both
You come across in a way that anyone can understand what ever you are saying, I am sure that there are some people that think you are full of it but I am sure it is because you know what you are doing and they just want the world to be the way they want it
Keep up the great work
I always thought that it meant corporations engaging in interstate commerce. I hadn't thought about agencies like the FDIC. Thanks.
I was waiting for you to bring up the travelling argument which usually ends in a broken window.
This appears to be up there with the Oxford comma.
The regulation of using public roads is left up to the states. Each state has its own set of regulations including laws that allow for that state to reach an agreement with other states. It is not governed by the Federal government except for interstate commerce, which then has its own set of rules and regulations. To argue that the federal government has any rule or law that applies to the use of public roads by anyone not engaged in interstate commerce, is non-sequitur. Even if one is engaged in IC, the state rules and regulations also apply.
Well the federal law in question here mentions those institutions in between some of those "or"s.
Following this crazy logic, these people need to stay off roads built by taxpayers.
You can’t argue with stupid. They always have more stupid to back it up.
Looking at life through a straw might get you eye damage.
These videos are enjoyable to watch or listen to.
But, but, but, what about her email? 😅😂🤣
Steve has yet again solved a Sovereign Ham Sandwich dilemma using his big pizza corporate powers.
A tee-shirt I like.
On the back it should say:
SHUT UP! CALL ME.
Steve, one of the never ending source of amusement for me is when a Sovereign quotes from the Blacks Law Dictionary and they are using the 2nd edition from the year 1910. Just wondering but would you consider that to be out of context?
The modern Black's is not authoritative. Why would an antique one mean anything?
@@stevelehto Correct, and that's exactly why I find it amusing! The Sovereign is using a quote that is both "antique" and is "not authoritative" as if it is going to make any difference to a police officer or a judge. The sad thing is, it also points a guilty finger at the educational system; a system that not only gives us Sovereign's but people that believe the earth is flat and that Donald Trump doesn't lie. What is it called when you combine tragedy and comedy? According to Google it becomes a "Tragicomedy, a literary genre that blends aspects of both tragic and comic forms". Oh and by the way, thanks for this channel, both an informative and approachable series of videos.
Steve, sovereign citizens are a reason that every household with children needs a good thesaurus.
@Mary Jackson, why the requirement of children? A lot of adults I know are woefully deficient in vocabulary!! A dictionary and thesaurus are a good idea for all of us!! I still look things up regularly! 🤔😂👵🇺🇸
Great job explaining that.
The problem is that the word or can be used when 'one or the other' is meant, a so-called exclusive or. It could also be used to mean 'one or the other or both', a so called inclusive or or an and/or. The word 'and' can also be used to mean 'one or more of these things' or 'all of these things.' For an example of the chaos that can result from this, see the PINE email client case.
Officers should just arrest these lunatics..and courts should hold them in contempt of court ..and. be done with them..simple..just don't believe what people tell you from the net...
There are channels on YT devoted to these nut jobs. The do get away with WAY too much. Every one should be busted and towed every time.
Even if it were a corporation it doesn't mean that it is for profit. Some prisons own non-appropriated funds for rec programs and education programs as a legal workaround for buying as an example. Just because the government owns corporations doesn't make them for profit because none that I am aware of are.