But after 4 years of riding and 2 of dedicated training with power meter, coach advisory, diet, upping ftp to 330 watts at 69-71 kg I finally bought an aero bike and campagnolo deep section wheels and I CAN feel the difference. But first things first - I built a very solid engine, then bought all the fancy stuff. The difference is the biggest above 35 km/h. Just accelerating to any speed above 30 km/h feels substancially easier.
@@michadebicki6534 As you are confessing, you are not the average recreational cyclist any more. The vast majority do not consult a sports scientist and a sports nutritionist for a training program and nutrition program to become better athletes. So you've certainly reached a point where the bike makes a difference.
@@michadebicki6534 But im sure that u also worked on ur position going lower,longer... So maybe the most advantage u feel is not from Aero frame (which is more marketing gimmick then reality), but from ur more Aero posirtion.. Ur body have biggest impact for Aero... Regarding deep wheelset yes, there is some advantage on high speed.... Kudos for ur FTP and Watts/Kg ....
My view is that aero frames do offer a slight advantage on a flat or downhill course. They offer less on hilly courses because they are typically heavier. The performance advantage is slight though and probably only minute or so over 40km. You would easily make or lose that amount by optimising your own position on the bike, by being well rested, decent race day nutrition etc. You are better off getting a quality light weight bike that fits you well and will be reliable.
In my opinion a professional bike fit will impact performance more than anything else you can do outside of increasing your fitness. The downside of course it won't impress anybody at the coffee stop.
Most people don't need a bike fit, just record yourself on the bike or have a friend do it. You can perfect your own fit following simple measurements and guidelines.
@@The2808erik I agree many experienced Riders can fit themselves but I don't think the majority Riders will swap out handlebars or stems to really dial-in a riding position. I spend more than half of my riding my time in the drops since making those changes.
@@The2808erik the issue with a bike fit in the general sense is that a lot of times you’re not riding the bike in the shop long enough to pick up on certain issues. I agree it’s generally a good idea but honestly every bike fit I’ve ever had I end up coming home only to put the bike on the trainer and make minor adjustments a little at a time until it’s totally dialed in. Now if you are having pain that’s a different story, a good bike fitter will be able to tell within a few seconds what is causing hip, knee, back, shoulder pain and address it.
A few years back, GCN did some testing and found if you have your elbows at 90° and have your hands resting on the hoods, with a couple of your smaller fingers gripping the tip of the hoods you get the most aero benefit. Not the safest form, but the most effective, even more than riding in the drops
It is however not easy to maintain that position for more than a few minutes. I can sit in the drops on my aeroad for 2 hours cycling on my limit, but only 2 minutes in the mentioned position. Maybe I could sit longer it I raised the handlebar, but then all other positions would be negatively affected. Maybe some cyclists can sit in the position for longer time, but just want to point out that the position is much harder to maintain than riding in the drops.
@@waynosfotos They banned the position where the rider was just balanced on the bars not holding the hoods. They also banned the special bars that were more extended to provide extra support in the 90 degree bend holding the hoods.
I changed from a canyon ultimate to aeroad. Not really any difference in my average speeds vs power. I do however notice a massive difference on my tt bike! Even when on the cow horns, I’d guess nearly all of that gain is the aggressive position though
Never had an aero bike tried some deep section wheels didn’t seem to make a lot of difference difficult to handle in a side wind. I then tried some short tri bars that only project slightly more than the brake hoods. Immediately I could do the same speed for a lower heart rate. I recognise that these are not allowed for road racing. For the non racer they are definitely free speed. They are probably the cheapest upgrade as well
Completely agree on the Aero bars. Tried them for about a month and like you said they give you free speed. Didn't feel safe riding them though so off they came and I've never been tempted to put them back on.
I’ve gotta say Wayno that bike of yours is a real stunner. The paint is maybe a bit shouty for some but for me it works. More videos with the bike please! 😍
i own a fixie, gravel bike & an aero bike. The only advantage i found out was the aero bike make ppl look at you because of the beauty of it. Im doing ultra endurance ride around 130 -180 km with gravel (2000eurs) & aero bike(8000eurs) ~1000 D+ (actually its not very aero since its tarmac sl7) I see my avg speed can goes up from 25.5 km/h to 27 km/h. So you can see the range of the money is more higher doesnt mean it made me go faster. To be faster, Its so depending on road/ wind condition, and also traffic. Sometime i wont try to go faster because of cars beside me. If i want to be faster. I can go to the small loop for training without any car or something. The most important thing is NEVER skip an UPPERBODY day if you want to buy an aero bike (thank god im doing calisthenic for years so there is no problem). Its nNOT comfortable at all because the bike make you go on low profile position for very long time if you do endurance like me. Train your core, your upper body strong enough to control them well. Training well & Having fun are most important, but sometimes having a beautiful bike is making you feeling good. Lol.
What I've found with my Cervelo P5X, when riding at regular pace, little advantage. But, when I increase speed, or start going downhill, the speed multiplies in my tuck as opposed to a road bike.
@@waynosfotos Thanks for your reply. Like Hambini says, aero for a rider like me (18-20 mph) is rubbish. Camtail effect doesn't start till about 30 mph, so he said imagine aerodynamics like hitting a speed bump, the longer and lower it is, the easier the air will slide over and around it. My point is, I feel my old Specialized SHIV is the most aero bike ever made, I can hold a constant speed in a head wind, which I can't on my Scott Foil road bike, if that makes any sense.
@@happydays8171 the added weight of an aero bike may also be a contributing factor, since moving objects that have greater mass or weight are harder to stop, or would decelerate slower than lighter ones, all other things equal.
@@kristofferguerra569 I understand. However that bike came with the best of the best in wheels and components from the factory. I changed some for my preferences, but if you want to know how factory riders reach the speeds they do, get on this bike.
As someone who got hit by a driver who turned without shoulder check, the tips about flashing headlight is pretty useful. I thought the headlight is only for evening riding so I never use one. I'll get one for safety
Tri bars are a good investment. For $120 US I picked up 1 honest mph over a 25 mile course. The bar/stem drop is almost non existent. Getting those draggy arms with the very short chords out of the airflow is key. Being a person with poor flexibility and good fitness was limiting. Tri bars are more comfortable than the drops. My hands and wrists also thank me. There's obviously more aero positioning possible but I enjoy seeing where I'm going and got a 15% boost in speed. That's enough. The bike has hydro formed aluminum frame tubes which unlikely been tested in a wind tunnel. The water bottles sit on the stem behind the wake my hands create, the other one sits under the saddle. Nothing is mounted on the frame. If I wanted to go even faster downhill I'd get a geared bike! Oh, I recently went up 2 inches in gearing, so that's covered too!
Hey Wayno is that an adjustable angle stem on your bike? I lift weights so quite a bigger rider, 95kg so I'm assuming I'm more at the higher percentage of drag. Anyway my two latest builds, 1960s Merlin Track bike modified to take modern wheels and a Chinese BXT carbon Aero track frame..... Over the next couple of months I'll be doing comparisons around Derby Velodrome, I wonder if 60 years between bikes will make any difference to the times at my level (not quick) just building head unit seat mounts so I can get proper data. PS, check out Trace Velos latest video, comparison that I haven't seen done, difference from decent spec cable operated disk brakes to hydraulic upgrade? Is it?? , interesting 'things'.
@@waynosfotos ill update my bike comparisons to you in a couple of months, I'm not very fast just yet new to indoor track, any excuse to build bikes 😂😂
@@nihonbunka hey mate, after riding both at Derby for shakedown rides without computer, I decided to use my carbon bike at Derby and my vintage steel Merlin at Newcastle outdoor track, Newcastle is quite a lumpy track and the Merlin glides beautifully along. I did try the carbon bike at Newcastle, shook my teeth out, it's so stiff 🤪😂😂 ultimately it didn't think there was anything in it, I'm a big guy and I feel aero plays less of a roll than if someone is 'classic cyclists shape' . Both very usable tools for different tracks 😁
@@mickchaganis6607 Thank you. If there is not a lot in it, I don't think I will buy an aero road bike, not that I could afford even a Chinese one. I can get old non aero carbon bikes for about 500 USD (Trek, Look) and they do for me.
UCI aside, what's an example of a no comprise, actual gains aero bike? Full front faring? Fenders? Are the gains almost always marginal(aside from a full enclosure)?
There is a few about, a good example is the ventum one. There was a few bikes in the 90s too, like the LOTUS bike. One piece frames. I actually have a Australian made one called the SUPERBIKE i am restoring, but the paint shop is dragging their feet. He has had it a year. Need to give him a hurry up. 😜👍
I've got an aero road bike with 45mm rims and there is a small gain on my times compared to a conventional bike I have. The gains for us recreational riders doing solos and the odd bunch is sublime. Pros aren't carting paraphernalia on the bars as Wayne mentioned.
I like the aero style bike. The shape of my transonic is lovely. I also have a rounded tube shape specialized allez. But that bike has a lovely color scheme.
Well said and done, a proper fitting jersey and shorts makes more improvement than aero wheels or frame. Tie them all together with aero position for a difference you can feel…if you are going faster than 15mph. I love my aero bike, jersey etc. makes me feel fast even thoigh I am slow. Motivates me to ride an aero position which gives me a better workout.
I chose to go with a more standard shaped all around race bike. My main reason is that I don't like to stand out. I don't want a fancy sexy sports car either. I don't want people to expect me to be super fast. More fun to surprise them!
I'm a criterium racer. I've competed against and with people with aero frames and lightweight climbing frames. One thing's for sure based on my experience, aero is close to nothing in terms of necessity in criterium racing. Most crit racers in my area actually prefer lighter builds than aero frames as they're more responsive in terms of acceleration and cornering.
Good conclusion. I focused on my position on the bike, and strengthening myself to be able to push bigger wattage, bought a decent wheelset and a clip on, as I ride almost exclusively alone. Kept the old frame, round bars, and exposed cables at the cockpit for easy maintenace. With the better fit I can easily equal the 8-10 watts lost at around 40-42 kph, and saved a shit ton of money.
Not normally a fan of someone saying you don’t need this particular bike or this particular product. If someone wants something, go yea ahead and spend your dough. But I did have a rye smile listening to this one. I can’t see where the advantage is with aero frame for the majority of riders, for all the reasons you suggest mate! Great work 👌🍀
My late '70s road bike is more aero in a cross wind. And the skinny steel tubing probably performs pretty well in a head wind too. Bar height wasn't as low in those days but you just bent your elbows a bit more to make up for it. It just doesn't really matter if your having fun. Just another rabbit hole really. Are there really that many truly 'competitive' riders out there or are most just trying to best their buds. Marketing and taking advantage of consumer's frail egos. Boy I'm surly this morning.
The Pantani tuck is my favorite UCI legal descent mode. As for aero, meh. The 2021 Trek Emonda SLR series I ride is PLENTY fast with my 48Kg motor and very slender but muscular build. In cruise mode I ride hands on hoods and have zero problem abandoning fellow riders, especially on uphill grades where they disappear quickly. Generally I REALLY dislike company except when riding with my friends on RAGBRAI.
The aero benefit of saddle to bar drop can be decieving. If you can achieve the same torso angle with higher handlebars, by means of shruging your shoulders, you will reduce your frontal area and thereby reduce drag. Same reason why tt-bars tend to be higher these days.
But it's definitely sexy to look at as you see it walk away after the lock is broken into after you stop for a break at a coffee shop or maybe locked up at work to a secure bike post! There goes a couple of grand walking away for sale in the want adds or ebay!
Have to disagree with a few of the factual arguments in this video. The marketing usually correctly shows the frame/cockpit as an independent variable. While a rider in an upright position will create a higher drag and a higher percentage of total drag than an aero rider, the advantage of an aero frame will still be the same with a given net headwind (speed + headwind) regardless of rider position or use of aero bars. The UCI effect is real, but triathlon shows us what fully optimized frames look like, and several new superbikes are not too far off in shape than their UCI road counterparts, while others are very deep. The high speeds in the ads are mostly to inflate perceived gains, but also do well to represent what strong riders actually experience, or what slower riders will see in a headwind. If you don't reach those speeds regularly, you can still apply the savings as measured in CdA to slower speeds and still find roughly the watts being saved or speed increase at your normal pace. I agree though on the lack of usefulness to most riders. Competitive racers or primarily solo riders who will spend significant time in the wind and have time/distance/energy demands benefit enough to justify an aero bike. Most folks should pass and get the improved weight, feel, serviceability, and comfort of a standard bike.
There have been tests to prove that 90 degree elbows on the hoods are faster than locked out hands on the drops for example. It of course lowers the back equally well. Easy to get used to if you’re flexible enough.
The ONLY real advantage of aero bikes is the geometry not the tube shapes. The much lower stack accounts for the "aero" gains as the rider is sitting in a much more aero (and much less comfortable) position.
@@torma99 Really? I would love an example. My Bianchi XR4 is so much lower in front than my Canyon Ultimate you can tell by looking at them which goes faster (downhill or on the flats).
@@torma99 i gotta agree somehow. I have a cervelo s3 and its geometry is confusingly similar to the caledonia, which is cervelo’s all-road bike. I compared the geometry to all rounders like scott addict RC and specialized SL7 and those bikes have a more aggressive geometry, which is confusing as the s3 is marketed as an aero bike. Not all brands do this though. And cervelo has discontinued the s3 so I dunno. I borrowed my friend’s sl7 and I felt it easier to hold speed with my s3. Granted, the sl7 is not the correct size for me, and the fit is all wrong for me.
Like always. Its an industry to sell. Golf clues,tennis rackets, running shoes etc. It doesn't matter. Its all about image. And how much you want to pay for it.$$$$$
If i were to buy aero bike . One major consideration is the look of the bike and ease of maintenance. Nothing else.if the bike gonna end up like the specialized SL7 fiasco and it's a big no. But for me if i could ride a gravel bike with 40 mm tyre and could maintain 35 km/ hr speed with roadie. That would be the better option.
I love my aero bike, I have got more PBs with it then on my regular bike. Its lighter than most "newer" bikes as its a rim brake bike 👍 compaired to the new disk aero bikes. Plus I think they look brillaint. I love the look of aero bikes.
If I got an aero bike, I definitely would not get to home on promised time and thus would have to enjoy food, that has already got cold. Because I would spin with all my might on every down slope, pursuing the top speed and then would not be able to put anything out on rest of ride. On flats and uphill, it would not have any benefit as my average speed is too small. On good conditions maybe I get 25Km/h average. ;D On downhill, with tailwind I have had 69Km/h with all accessories installed. Would also miss my beloved mudguards and other accessories on aero bike.
It is interesting to me how much time racers in long races actually spend on the hoods. I think cyclists don't spend more time in the drops because handle bars do not have the best functional design, unergonomic, not designed to best fit the shape and mechanics of the human body. I have my own design. BTW, I wondered why fairings are not used in certain places. Did not know UCI forbade them. Thanks for another right on the money video essay. Awesome.
I believe modern so called aero bikes don't give much aero advantages. The wind is never constantly in front of you, The speeds are too slow to see a serious improvement. If anything aero bikes by design are stiffer and that I believe is what makes the bike feel faster. I think a round tube frame is best. If aero bikes are so good then how come the finishing times of pro races are not that much faster, especially considering a top bike today is about 10lbs lighter and much stiffer. Oh and the races are shorter!!!!! TDF TT's were as long as 45miles to 55miles and they avg +27MPH on 23lbs to 30lbs bikes. I wish companies would stop claiming their aero bikes save x amount of watts. That's impossible to calculate as it depends on who is sitting on the bike and in what conditions. If a bicycle was self propelled then the claim might make sense. I strongly believe the TT bikes from the late 80's the most aero (rider + bike). Also the modern TT bike + rider appears to be very inefficient. Look at a Team TT from the late 80's and look at those today. Today they look like they are twerking (wobbling) on the bike, look very unsteady and scary like ready to crash! Look at those from the late 80's and they are rock solid. Check out the 1985 and 1986 TDF and Giro (its on UA-cam). Those guys from the 1980's look like Pro machines vs today....Pro riders with ants in their pants.
Back to your original statement/question. An aerobike should create less drag than a standard. You will carry the same accessories or ride in the same positions and have the same drag difference. An aerobike does in theory have an advantage over non aero. Faster you go, greater the difference. Just like a lightweight bike will be a better climber rhan a heavy one. If you add the same accessories or weight to either, they will be slower climbers proportionally. Please don't cloud the comparison with position and accesories.
I’ve not ridden an aero bike but it seems that the gains in most cases aren’t worth it. As a race bike they make perfect sense but for recreation it’s a purchase of vanity-which is- also completely valid.
An aero bike, in red or yellow, with deep wheels looks better and could make me feel faster... especially if I shaved my legs. One day, but hopefully without disc brakes :-)
if you want to get an advantage from an aero position you must train your body to stay in this position. For example in an ironman race, nearly half of the people can't hold the aero position, so an special time trial/triathlon bike is an disadvantage.
I think you need to do a bit more research. Riding on the hoods with the arms horizontal has been proven to be the most aero position, more so than on the drops. Difficult to do for the average rider for any length of time though I'll admit.
I've gone from a traditional climbing bike to a Ridley noah aero bike with 50mm wheels, its faster everywhere except on climbs with gradient above about 10% from what i can work out. But i do race regularly and have a decent position on all bikes with 100mm drop. The aero bike is faster but if your a recreational rider comfort is king,not speed
Hi my dear friend I am really confused between two bikes please guide for which I should go ridley noah or giant tcr advanced KOM 1 rim brakes bike because I want to race and when I asked weight of ridley noah it comes in 105 rim brakes with stock wheels weight 8 to 8.4 kgs don't you think it is heavy than tcr which 7 .5 to 7.9 kgs so finally confused please tell which bike to go for for road racing plus time trial race
Most commuters I see don't need the aero shape tubing is more like it. No advantage. Yeah. Only to my point of view would be those banned triathlon bikes would give you a true aero advantage. But again. Not in an ideal comfortable position for an average rider that's most likely looking for more comfort and able to at least to ride more often plus control is also a main factor when riding in a busy traffic along with the cars. You don't want to be in an aero position and have minimal emergency stop when a pedestrian or vehicle cuts in front of you. Safety trumps aero position and bike when commuting in traffic to get somewhere.
Aero benefit: 85% rider and 15%bike = insignificant Bicycle weight increase due to disc/aero = 1kg less than 5% of total unit weight = OMG DISC BRAKES ARE SO INEFFICIENT. DISC BRAKES BAD Gosh the hypocrisy of rim brakers are hilarious.
So basically a trek madone rsl is no quicker than a basic aluminium 10 speed racer? This does seem a bit strange really wayno,surely a well designed aero bike with light weight 50mm wheels say like winspace hypers will be quicker than a £500 cheapo racer surely? I have a Look 695 this is a great climbing bike,but not an out and out fast bike,i have a trifox x10 with deep sections and thats a fast bike and the best bike is a wilier cento 1 air all singing dancing deep sections that i have done 26 minute 10 mile TT on,and i can imidiately feel the difference as soon a s i ride either or any one of those bikes.I agree we are the biggest drawback as we are not aero but a well built streamlined bike will always out perform a cheaper option.
Not to mention all the rubbing disc rotors, brake pistons not retracting, and funky handling due to the engineering that goes behind road bikes to be able to handle disc brake forces.
This shows the difference between the automotive and bike industries. Trickle down from F1 works for any driver - auto start, performance chips etc. I might crash it but if I drive a Ferrari I will go faster than my Ford Fiesta. IMO. All bike tech is targeted at top level athletes. A few watts here and there makes zero difference to me as a bang average cyclist. So what’s the point? As @RobertRyan says, you won’t impress folks at the coffee shop 😁
its all nonesense.Look at Podgcar...won the TDF on a normal round tubed Colnago.....The public will believe any nonesense...Sagan beat everyone on a round tubed super six Cannondale...Ant to top it all most racing and group rides are in the bunch with only a small turn on the front....,I have a winter gravel bike as un aero as it gets....and have no trouble in group rides keeping up....funny how no one ever talks about the legs ...some legs are faster than others..no matter what you are riding LOL
technically not so true... fit / position being the exact same between an aero and non aero bike, on paper you should still see that saving. Of course the saving is not anywhere near what one would see in the real world on the road. Will you feel the difference at all in the watt 'savings'.. absolutely not!
No, as your body creates more drag it becomes a bigger percentage of the total drag, therefore the bike is giving less advantage. In reality the frame shapes do not meet full aero design advantage, because the UCI wrote the rules to prevent it. UCI banned the super man position, the Praying mantis position and in recent times longer narrower handlebars. So the reality is they make little difference. Even by manufacturers own claims it is 60-90 seconds over an hour at optimum conditions.
Not sure I understand what your point is regarding the rider's position. The difference in frame shape and the difference in drag between aero frames and non aero frames is there regardless of a rider's position. And if I was buying an aero bike - or any bike - I'd obviously make sure that the geometry fits me so I can ride in the drops comfortably.
@@waynosfotos sure. But that's the case on every bike. And if you have your benchmark riding position, you're going to dial that in on every bike, aero or not. So your body drag will end up the same. Right?
This video is not worth while and full of falacies. Let's start with the first one: if your not in the drops then you are getting less benefit. Not necessarily true! I'm not aware of any study showing that the drag reduction was say 15 W in the drops but 0 on the hoods. If your gonna be on the hoods anyways ... Your argument that your total drag as a rider will be higher than of you were on the drops doesn't necessarily translate to: on the hoods in an aero bike is the same drag as on the hoods in a regular bike. Your just not making sense. Also ... Sure... 90 seconds is little. But 10 watts. Guys think about how ecstatic you would be if I told you you brought up your ftp by 10 watts. An aero bike is giving that for free... For some of us it's worth it...
If aero frames, aero bars, internal cables, OSPW etc. did not exist and all bikes looked the same cycling would much more boring and so would this channel because you wouldn't have anything to talk about.
Lol, well once they did. Tubes were round and steel. It was more a limitation of the product. But maybe they were boring? Changing them does not particularly make them better. Just different and maybe no tso boring. But this is more of a philosophical, discussion.
Aero Frames are like buying Air Jordans and hoping wearing them can make you play like Michael Jordan.
But after 4 years of riding and 2 of dedicated training with power meter, coach advisory, diet, upping ftp to 330 watts at 69-71 kg I finally bought an aero bike and campagnolo deep section wheels and I CAN feel the difference. But first things first - I built a very solid engine, then bought all the fancy stuff. The difference is the biggest above 35 km/h. Just accelerating to any speed above 30 km/h feels substancially easier.
@@michadebicki6534 As you are confessing, you are not the average recreational cyclist any more. The vast majority do not consult a sports scientist and a sports nutritionist for a training program and nutrition program to become better athletes. So you've certainly reached a point where the bike makes a difference.
@@gbunag3 Yup, that's about right
@@michadebicki6534 But im sure that u also worked on ur position going lower,longer... So maybe the most advantage u feel is not from Aero frame (which is more marketing gimmick then reality), but from ur more Aero posirtion.. Ur body have biggest impact for Aero... Regarding deep wheelset yes, there is some advantage on high speed.... Kudos for ur FTP and Watts/Kg ....
😂
My aero go to is to find a wheel and stay on it :)
Yep best aero!
Hear here
I need a 695
You have a Time, even better!
🦴
My view is that aero frames do offer a slight advantage on a flat or downhill course. They offer less on hilly courses because they are typically heavier. The performance advantage is slight though and probably only minute or so over 40km. You would easily make or lose that amount by optimising your own position on the bike, by being well rested, decent race day nutrition etc.
You are better off getting a quality light weight bike that fits you well and will be reliable.
In my opinion a professional bike fit will impact performance more than anything else you can do outside of increasing your fitness. The downside of course it won't impress anybody at the coffee stop.
Most people don't need a bike fit, just record yourself on the bike or have a friend do it. You can perfect your own fit following simple measurements and guidelines.
Top comment. 😀
@@The2808erik I agree many experienced Riders can fit themselves but I don't think the majority Riders will swap out handlebars or stems to really dial-in a riding position. I spend more than half of my riding my time in the drops since making those changes.
@@robertryan1663 Totally agree for new riders a bike fit could be worth it, if you don't like measuring and fiddling with the fit.
@@The2808erik the issue with a bike fit in the general sense is that a lot of times you’re not riding the bike in the shop long enough to pick up on certain issues. I agree it’s generally a good idea but honestly every bike fit I’ve ever had I end up coming home only to put the bike on the trainer and make minor adjustments a little at a time until it’s totally dialed in. Now if you are having pain that’s a different story, a good bike fitter will be able to tell within a few seconds what is causing hip, knee, back, shoulder pain and address it.
A few years back, GCN did some testing and found if you have your elbows at 90° and have your hands resting on the hoods, with a couple of your smaller fingers gripping the tip of the hoods you get the most aero benefit. Not the safest form, but the most effective, even more than riding in the drops
Could you send a link to these GCN video please. I am interesting how looks this position exactly.
It is however not easy to maintain that position for more than a few minutes. I can sit in the drops on my aeroad for 2 hours cycling on my limit, but only 2 minutes in the mentioned position. Maybe I could sit longer it I raised the handlebar, but then all other positions would be negatively affected.
Maybe some cyclists can sit in the position for longer time, but just want to point out that the position is much harder to maintain than riding in the drops.
@@erikarnstrom897 I still can't imagine this position. May I ask about a picture or something?
Yes, the "sphinx" position is the most aero (UCI legal) position for a solo rider
@@TheGroupRide that's the perfect name. I never know what to call it
Seems like good, old fashioned, common sense , good video ,and have a Happy Christmas !
Cheers you too
I'm pretty sure that riding on the hoods with your elbows bent 90 degrees is even more aero than in the drops.
That's the truth.
Yes for sure, if i remember correctly, the UCI banned that as well.
@@waynosfotos They banned the position where the rider was just balanced on the bars not holding the hoods. They also banned the special bars that were more extended to provide extra support in the 90 degree bend holding the hoods.
One thing about an aero bike is…… The moment you start riding with other riders it intrinsically changes the dynamics of aerodynamics.
I never touch the wind until the last 1km:)
I changed from a canyon ultimate to aeroad. Not really any difference in my average speeds vs power. I do however notice a massive difference on my tt bike! Even when on the cow horns, I’d guess nearly all of that gain is the aggressive position though
Spot on 👍
Buy a bike that you like and fits you. Add a set of deep section wheels.
Yep, perfect.
Never had an aero bike tried some deep section wheels didn’t seem to make a lot of difference difficult to handle in a side wind. I then tried some short tri bars that only project slightly more than the brake hoods. Immediately I could do the same speed for a lower heart rate. I recognise that these are not allowed for road racing. For the non racer they are definitely free speed. They are probably the cheapest upgrade as well
Completely agree on the Aero bars. Tried them for about a month and like you said they give you free speed. Didn't feel safe riding them though so off they came and I've never been tempted to put them back on.
Hi Waynos you forgot the most important point about aero bikes. They look good. lol
Well that is true.
SEXY must be fast! Lol
Young people today have no idea what looks good :)
@@stibra101 ok old pal
That’s highly subjective….
I’ve gotta say Wayno that bike of yours is a real stunner. The paint is maybe a bit shouty for some but for me it works.
More videos with the bike please! 😍
Thanks 👍
i own a fixie, gravel bike & an aero bike. The only advantage i found out was the aero bike make ppl look at you because of the beauty of it.
Im doing ultra endurance ride around 130 -180 km with gravel (2000eurs) & aero bike(8000eurs) ~1000 D+ (actually its not very aero since its tarmac sl7) I see my avg speed can goes up from 25.5 km/h to 27 km/h. So you can see the range of the money is more higher doesnt mean it made me go faster.
To be faster, Its so depending on road/ wind condition, and also traffic. Sometime i wont try to go faster because of cars beside me. If i want to be faster. I can go to the small loop for training without any car or something.
The most important thing is NEVER skip an UPPERBODY day if you want to buy an aero bike (thank god im doing calisthenic for years so there is no problem). Its nNOT comfortable at all because the bike make you go on low profile position for very long time if you do endurance like me. Train your core, your upper body strong enough to control them well.
Training well & Having fun are most important, but sometimes having a beautiful bike is making you feeling good. Lol.
They whistle cool - and you can plan your route to whistle the melody on aero bike!
What I've found with my Cervelo P5X, when riding at regular pace, little advantage. But, when I increase speed, or start going downhill, the speed multiplies in my tuck as opposed to a road bike.
I didn’t read your comment properly
@@waynosfotos
Thanks for your reply. Like Hambini says, aero for a rider like me (18-20 mph) is rubbish. Camtail effect doesn't start till about 30 mph, so he said imagine aerodynamics like hitting a speed bump, the longer and lower it is, the easier the air will slide over and around it. My point is, I feel my old Specialized SHIV is the most aero bike ever made, I can hold a constant speed in a head wind, which I can't on my Scott Foil road bike, if that makes any sense.
@@happydays8171 the added weight of an aero bike may also be a contributing factor, since moving objects that have greater mass or weight are harder to stop, or would decelerate slower than lighter ones, all other things equal.
@@kristofferguerra569
I understand. However that bike came with the best of the best in wheels and components from the factory. I changed some for my preferences, but if you want to know how factory riders reach the speeds they do, get on this bike.
What we need is a full aero body suit shaped a bit like a torpedo.
As someone who got hit by a driver who turned without shoulder check, the tips about flashing headlight is pretty useful. I thought the headlight is only for evening riding so I never use one. I'll get one for safety
On point always nothing but facts. 👌
Tri bars are a good investment. For $120 US I picked up 1 honest mph over a 25 mile course. The bar/stem drop is almost non existent. Getting those draggy arms with the very short chords out of the airflow is key. Being a person with poor flexibility and good fitness was limiting. Tri bars are more comfortable than the drops. My hands and wrists also thank me. There's obviously more aero positioning possible but I enjoy seeing where I'm going and got a 15% boost in speed. That's enough. The bike has hydro formed aluminum frame tubes which unlikely been tested in a wind tunnel. The water bottles sit on the stem behind the wake my hands create, the other one sits under the saddle. Nothing is mounted on the frame. If I wanted to go even faster downhill I'd get a geared bike! Oh, I recently went up 2 inches in gearing, so that's covered too!
Hey Wayno is that an adjustable angle stem on your bike?
I lift weights so quite a bigger rider, 95kg so I'm assuming I'm more at the higher percentage of drag.
Anyway my two latest builds, 1960s Merlin Track bike modified to take modern wheels and a Chinese BXT carbon Aero track frame..... Over the next couple of months I'll be doing comparisons around Derby Velodrome, I wonder if 60 years between bikes will make any difference to the times at my level (not quick) just building head unit seat mounts so I can get proper data.
PS, check out Trace Velos latest video, comparison that I haven't seen done, difference from decent spec cable operated disk brakes to hydraulic upgrade? Is it?? , interesting 'things'.
Yes the stem is adjustable.
Started watching velo, but got called away. So only watched a bit of it so far. Interesting experiment. 🤔
@@waynosfotos ill update my bike comparisons to you in a couple of months, I'm not very fast just yet new to indoor track, any excuse to build bikes 😂😂
How did the comparison go?
@@nihonbunka hey mate, after riding both at Derby for shakedown rides without computer, I decided to use my carbon bike at Derby and my vintage steel Merlin at Newcastle outdoor track, Newcastle is quite a lumpy track and the Merlin glides beautifully along. I did try the carbon bike at Newcastle, shook my teeth out, it's so stiff 🤪😂😂 ultimately it didn't think there was anything in it, I'm a big guy and I feel aero plays less of a roll than if someone is 'classic cyclists shape' .
Both very usable tools for different tracks 😁
@@mickchaganis6607 Thank you. If there is not a lot in it, I don't think I will buy an aero road bike, not that I could afford even a Chinese one. I can get old non aero carbon bikes for about 500 USD (Trek, Look) and they do for me.
UCI aside, what's an example of a no comprise, actual gains aero bike? Full front faring? Fenders? Are the gains almost always marginal(aside from a full enclosure)?
There is a few about, a good example is the ventum one.
There was a few bikes in the 90s too, like the LOTUS bike. One piece frames.
I actually have a Australian made one called the SUPERBIKE i am restoring, but the paint shop is dragging their feet. He has had it a year. Need to give him a hurry up. 😜👍
I've got an aero road bike with 45mm rims and there is a small gain on my times compared to a conventional bike I have. The gains for us recreational riders doing solos and the odd bunch is sublime. Pros aren't carting paraphernalia on the bars as Wayne mentioned.
What’s your thoughts on the aero optimized lightweight bikes like the Emonda/Dogma/Tarmac? One bike to rule them all is the way to go?
I like the aero style bike. The shape of my transonic is lovely. I also have a rounded tube shape specialized allez. But that bike has a lovely color scheme.
Why is the bell mounted backwards?
It is only backwards if you look at it from behind. Lol 🎅
Well said and done, a proper fitting jersey and shorts makes more improvement than aero wheels or frame. Tie them all together with aero position for a difference you can feel…if you are going faster than 15mph. I love my aero bike, jersey etc. makes me feel fast even thoigh I am slow. Motivates me to ride an aero position which gives me a better workout.
I chose to go with a more standard shaped all around race bike. My main reason is that I don't like to stand out. I don't want a fancy sexy sports car either. I don't want people to expect me to be super fast. More fun to surprise them!
I'm a criterium racer. I've competed against and with people with aero frames and lightweight climbing frames. One thing's for sure based on my experience, aero is close to nothing in terms of necessity in criterium racing. Most crit racers in my area actually prefer lighter builds than aero frames as they're more responsive in terms of acceleration and cornering.
Good conclusion. I focused on my position on the bike, and strengthening myself to be able to push bigger wattage, bought a decent wheelset and a clip on, as I ride almost exclusively alone. Kept the old frame, round bars, and exposed cables at the cockpit for easy maintenace. With the better fit I can easily equal the 8-10 watts lost at around 40-42 kph, and saved a shit ton of money.
That is the way.
Good video mate
Cheers
Not normally a fan of someone saying you don’t need this particular bike or this particular product. If someone wants something, go yea ahead and spend your dough. But I did have a rye smile listening to this one. I can’t see where the advantage is with aero frame for the majority of riders, for all the reasons you suggest mate! Great work 👌🍀
Thanks 😊
My late '70s road bike is more aero in a cross wind. And the skinny steel tubing probably performs pretty well in a head wind too. Bar height wasn't as low in those days but you just bent your elbows a bit more to make up for it. It just doesn't really matter if your having fun. Just another rabbit hole really. Are there really that many truly 'competitive' riders out there or are most just trying to best their buds. Marketing and taking advantage of consumer's frail egos. Boy I'm surly this morning.
The Pantani tuck is my favorite UCI legal descent mode. As for aero, meh. The 2021 Trek Emonda SLR series I ride is PLENTY fast with my 48Kg motor and very slender but muscular build. In cruise mode I ride hands on hoods and have zero problem abandoning fellow riders, especially on uphill grades where they disappear quickly. Generally I REALLY dislike company except when riding with my friends on RAGBRAI.
The aero benefit of saddle to bar drop can be decieving. If you can achieve the same torso angle with higher handlebars, by means of shruging your shoulders, you will reduce your frontal area and thereby reduce drag.
Same reason why tt-bars tend to be higher these days.
Possibly, i was just trying to point out your body is the main drag and you need to work on that first
But it's definitely sexy to look at as you see it walk away after the lock is broken into after you stop for a break at a coffee shop or maybe locked up at work to a secure bike post! There goes a couple of grand walking away for sale in the want adds or ebay!
Have to disagree with a few of the factual arguments in this video. The marketing usually correctly shows the frame/cockpit as an independent variable. While a rider in an upright position will create a higher drag and a higher percentage of total drag than an aero rider, the advantage of an aero frame will still be the same with a given net headwind (speed + headwind) regardless of rider position or use of aero bars. The UCI effect is real, but triathlon shows us what fully optimized frames look like, and several new superbikes are not too far off in shape than their UCI road counterparts, while others are very deep. The high speeds in the ads are mostly to inflate perceived gains, but also do well to represent what strong riders actually experience, or what slower riders will see in a headwind. If you don't reach those speeds regularly, you can still apply the savings as measured in CdA to slower speeds and still find roughly the watts being saved or speed increase at your normal pace. I agree though on the lack of usefulness to most riders. Competitive racers or primarily solo riders who will spend significant time in the wind and have time/distance/energy demands benefit enough to justify an aero bike. Most folks should pass and get the improved weight, feel, serviceability, and comfort of a standard bike.
There have been tests to prove that 90 degree elbows on the hoods are faster than locked out hands on the drops for example. It of course lowers the back equally well. Easy to get used to if you’re flexible enough.
The ONLY real advantage of aero bikes is the geometry not the tube shapes. The much lower stack accounts for the "aero" gains as the rider is sitting in a much more aero (and much less comfortable) position.
Nowadays the aero bikes come with the same or even higher stack and shorter reach as former normal allrounders had, so it really comes down to shapes.
@@torma99 Really? I would love an example. My Bianchi XR4 is so much lower in front than my Canyon Ultimate you can tell by looking at them which goes faster (downhill or on the flats).
@@torma99 i gotta agree somehow. I have a cervelo s3 and its geometry is confusingly similar to the caledonia, which is cervelo’s all-road bike. I compared the geometry to all rounders like scott addict RC and specialized SL7 and those bikes have a more aggressive geometry, which is confusing as the s3 is marketed as an aero bike. Not all brands do this though. And cervelo has discontinued the s3 so I dunno. I borrowed my friend’s sl7 and I felt it easier to hold speed with my s3. Granted, the sl7 is not the correct size for me, and the fit is all wrong for me.
Like always. Its an industry to sell. Golf clues,tennis rackets, running shoes etc. It doesn't matter. Its all about image. And how much you want to pay for it.$$$$$
If i were to buy aero bike . One major consideration is the look of the bike and ease of maintenance.
Nothing else.if the bike gonna end up like the specialized SL7 fiasco and it's a big no.
But for me if i could ride a gravel bike with 40 mm tyre and could maintain 35 km/ hr speed with roadie. That would be the better option.
Weight advantage for me, rather then 'aero' advantage. You can feel weight advantage whether you're riding fast or slow.
You forgot a very important thing.............. A lot of aero bikes look fantastic
I love my aero bike, I have got more PBs with it then on my regular bike. Its lighter than most "newer" bikes as its a rim brake bike 👍 compaired to the new disk aero bikes. Plus I think they look brillaint. I love the look of aero bikes.
Isn't it true that aero bikes tend to be heavier as well?
In general
If I got an aero bike, I definitely would not get to home on promised time and thus would have to enjoy food, that has already got cold. Because I would spin with all my might on every down slope, pursuing the top speed and then would not be able to put anything out on rest of ride. On flats and uphill, it would not have any benefit as my average speed is too small. On good conditions maybe I get 25Km/h average. ;D On downhill, with tailwind I have had 69Km/h with all accessories installed.
Would also miss my beloved mudguards and other accessories on aero bike.
It is interesting to me how much time racers in long races actually spend on the hoods. I think cyclists don't spend more time in the drops because handle bars do not have the best functional design, unergonomic, not designed to best fit the shape and mechanics of the human body. I have my own design.
BTW, I wondered why fairings are not used in certain places. Did not know UCI forbade them.
Thanks for another right on the money video essay. Awesome.
I believe modern so called aero bikes don't give much aero advantages. The wind is never constantly in front of you, The speeds are too slow to see a serious improvement. If anything aero bikes by design are stiffer and that I believe is what makes the bike feel faster. I think a round tube frame is best. If aero bikes are so good then how come the finishing times of pro races are not that much faster, especially considering a top bike today is about 10lbs lighter and much stiffer. Oh and the races are shorter!!!!! TDF TT's were as long as 45miles to 55miles and they avg +27MPH on 23lbs to 30lbs bikes. I wish companies would stop claiming their aero bikes save x amount of watts. That's impossible to calculate as it depends on who is sitting on the bike and in what conditions. If a bicycle was self propelled then the claim might make sense.
I strongly believe the TT bikes from the late 80's the most aero (rider + bike). Also the modern TT bike + rider appears to be very inefficient. Look at a Team TT from the late 80's and look at those today. Today they look like they are twerking (wobbling) on the bike, look very unsteady and scary like ready to crash! Look at those from the late 80's and they are rock solid. Check out the 1985 and 1986 TDF and Giro (its on UA-cam). Those guys from the 1980's look like Pro machines vs today....Pro riders with ants in their pants.
Back to your original statement/question. An aerobike should create less drag than a standard. You will carry the same accessories or ride in the same positions and have the same drag difference. An aerobike does in theory have an advantage over non aero. Faster you go, greater the difference.
Just like a lightweight bike will be a better climber rhan a heavy one. If you add the same accessories or weight to either, they will be slower climbers proportionally.
Please don't cloud the comparison with position and accesories.
I’ve not ridden an aero bike but it seems that the gains in most cases aren’t worth it. As a race bike they make perfect sense but for recreation it’s a purchase of vanity-which is- also completely valid.
If you want to get aero get a velomobile than you are aero af ;)
For sure 👍
Riding on the hoods does not cancel out the benefit of the aero bike vs riding on the hoods on a non-aero bike. Because science.
Yes but they are far closer, because the rider is now a bigger percentage of the drag compared to the bike's drag staying static.
@@waynosfotos in percentage terms, yes, but in real terms no. Because maths.
An aero bike, in red or yellow, with deep wheels looks better and could make me feel faster... especially if I shaved my legs. One day, but hopefully without disc brakes :-)
if you want to get an advantage from an aero position you must train your body to stay in this position. For example in an ironman race, nearly half of the people can't hold the aero position, so an special time trial/triathlon bike is an disadvantage.
I think you need to do a bit more research. Riding on the hoods with the arms horizontal has been proven to be the most aero position, more so than on the drops. Difficult to do for the average rider for any length of time though I'll admit.
The old faithful , is a true aero bike
You talking adout Graham Obree's bike,
They did a test, and the new aero bikes were no faster.
@@waynosfotos I know , what that says , the position is more important ? What if you mixed the "aero" with the "position"?
I've gone from a traditional climbing bike to a Ridley noah aero bike with 50mm wheels, its faster everywhere except on climbs with gradient above about 10% from what i can work out. But i do race regularly and have a decent position on all bikes with 100mm drop. The aero bike is faster but if your a recreational rider comfort is king,not speed
Hi my dear friend I am really confused between two bikes please guide for which I should go ridley noah or giant tcr advanced KOM 1 rim brakes bike because I want to race and when I asked weight of ridley noah it comes in 105 rim brakes with stock wheels weight 8 to 8.4 kgs don't you think it is heavy than tcr which 7 .5 to 7.9 kgs so finally confused please tell which bike to go for for road racing plus time trial race
I mean for both purposes I am asking time trialing and road racing both purposes one bike
Most commuters I see don't need the aero shape tubing is more like it. No advantage. Yeah. Only to my point of view would be those banned triathlon bikes would give you a true aero advantage. But again. Not in an ideal comfortable position for an average rider that's most likely looking for more comfort and able to at least to ride more often plus control is also a main factor when riding in a busy traffic along with the cars. You don't want to be in an aero position and have minimal emergency stop when a pedestrian or vehicle cuts in front of you. Safety trumps aero position and bike when commuting in traffic to get somewhere.
Absolutely
I'm as areo as a beach ball so I'll stay on my titanium lynskey 😁
An inflated or deflated beach ball?
Aero benefit: 85% rider and 15%bike = insignificant
Bicycle weight increase due to disc/aero = 1kg less than 5% of total unit weight = OMG DISC BRAKES ARE SO INEFFICIENT. DISC BRAKES BAD
Gosh the hypocrisy of rim brakers are hilarious.
So basically a trek madone rsl is no quicker than a basic aluminium 10 speed racer? This does seem a bit strange really wayno,surely a well designed aero bike with light weight 50mm wheels say like winspace hypers will be quicker than a £500 cheapo racer surely? I have a Look 695 this is a great climbing bike,but not an out and out fast bike,i have a trifox x10 with deep sections and thats a fast bike and the best bike is a wilier cento 1 air all singing dancing deep sections that i have done 26 minute 10 mile TT on,and i can imidiately feel the difference as soon a s i ride either or any one of those bikes.I agree we are the biggest drawback as we are not aero but a well built streamlined bike will always out perform a cheaper option.
Yes wheels do help, but frame design islimited by the UCI.
Aero bikes are great, especially with DISC brakes
And they will get even better with a suspension fork and dropper post!!😂
Not to mention all the rubbing disc rotors, brake pistons not retracting, and funky handling due to the engineering that goes behind road bikes to be able to handle disc brake forces.
@@astrayagrarian they are Just better
@@astrayagrarian or the Rim brakes that dont work when it rains
This shows the difference between the automotive and bike industries. Trickle down from F1 works for any driver - auto start, performance chips etc. I might crash it but if I drive a Ferrari I will go faster than my Ford Fiesta.
IMO. All bike tech is targeted at top level athletes. A few watts here and there makes zero difference to me as a bang average cyclist. So what’s the point? As @RobertRyan says, you won’t impress folks at the coffee shop 😁
Get an aero bike. If you want to hang with the big dogs on Beach Rd, get an aero bike.
its all nonesense.Look at Podgcar...won the TDF on a normal round tubed Colnago.....The public will believe any nonesense...Sagan beat everyone on a round tubed super six Cannondale...Ant to top it all most racing and group rides are in the bunch with only a small turn on the front....,I have a winter gravel bike as un aero as it gets....and have no trouble in group rides keeping up....funny how no one ever talks about the legs ...some legs are faster than others..no matter what you are riding LOL
Yes and Although pros have access to full aero models, in general they don't select them
technically not so true... fit / position being the exact same between an aero and non aero bike, on paper you should still see that saving. Of course the saving is not anywhere near what one would see in the real world on the road. Will you feel the difference at all in the watt 'savings'.. absolutely not!
No, as your body creates more drag it becomes a bigger percentage of the total drag, therefore the bike is giving less advantage.
In reality the frame shapes do not meet full aero design advantage, because the UCI wrote the rules to prevent it.
UCI banned the super man position, the Praying mantis position and in recent times longer narrower handlebars.
So the reality is they make little difference. Even by manufacturers own claims it is 60-90 seconds over an hour at optimum conditions.
this is why I buy fake aliexpress aero frames so I get the benefit without the price
Not sure I understand what your point is regarding the rider's position. The difference in frame shape and the difference in drag between aero frames and non aero frames is there regardless of a rider's position. And if I was buying an aero bike - or any bike - I'd obviously make sure that the geometry fits me so I can ride in the drops comfortably.
If you body is in a position that causes more drag it then becomes a bigger percentage of the total drag.
@@waynosfotos sure. But that's the case on every bike. And if you have your benchmark riding position, you're going to dial that in on every bike, aero or not. So your body drag will end up the same. Right?
Out of interest, have you ever ridden an aero bike?
This video is not worth while and full of falacies. Let's start with the first one: if your not in the drops then you are getting less benefit. Not necessarily true! I'm not aware of any study showing that the drag reduction was say 15 W in the drops but 0 on the hoods. If your gonna be on the hoods anyways ... Your argument that your total drag as a rider will be higher than of you were on the drops doesn't necessarily translate to: on the hoods in an aero bike is the same drag as on the hoods in a regular bike. Your just not making sense. Also ... Sure... 90 seconds is little. But 10 watts. Guys think about how ecstatic you would be if I told you you brought up your ftp by 10 watts. An aero bike is giving that for free... For some of us it's worth it...
If aero frames, aero bars, internal cables, OSPW etc. did not exist and all bikes looked the same cycling would much more boring and so would this channel because you wouldn't have anything to talk about.
Lol, well once they did. Tubes were round and steel.
It was more a limitation of the product. But maybe they were boring?
Changing them does not particularly make them better. Just different and maybe no tso boring.
But this is more of a philosophical, discussion.