I think one of the biggest things DCI could do to help with some of these questions is to share blank judges sheets. That way fans can learn about how the corps are being evaluated.
As a huge drum corps fan who's never marched DCI , I am still really interested in people's roles like this. It really gives an outsider like me a different perspective and makes me appreciate this art even more!!! Great video, I look forward to more interviews like this if possible!
DCI just needs to publish the judges tape to their website. Not necessarily for each show but certainly the regional ones along with prelims, semis and finals. If there’s nothing to hide then put the information out there for all to hear.
I guess this is along the same lines as "is it rigged" but can we get a comment on slotting? From San Antonio to finals there has been almost no shake up in placements at all. Are all the groups so consistent that there just isn't that much movement? Like why does it seem a group will never be 3'rd one night, 5'th the next, and back to 2'nd? When I marched I remember having some absolute disaster shows and some that felt amazing but seemed our placement was always the same. Or maybe it is just a concequence of the score sheet itself with each subcaption not actually being worth a ton of points so a terrible run for drums isn't going to put you down 3 places one night in overall score? Which I guess you could argue makes the system more fair because one bad run doesn't total your overall score, but does make the competition aspect less interesting throughout the season.
Not completely sure, but I think the sub-captions do tend to move around a decent amount like you mentioned. But when you add everything up those fluctuations tend average out more.
DCI's judging system is probably the most rigorously systematically scrutinized and quality controlled competitive judging system of its kind. All judges have extensive training and experience as performers and teachers not only in their disciplines but specifically in being as consistant as possible in their evaluation process of ranking, rating, and giving real time accurate educationally constructive feedback for instructors and kids.
Really insightful interview. Thanks! Many fans don’t understand the judging process or the intricacies of the product being presented on the field. Staff and design are so important - from a scoring standpoint, from the standpoint of attracting top talent, and being able to develop that talent and to peak at exactly the right time.
Great interview Everett. Really appreciated hearing Jeff’s insights. I only wish you would have hit the “slotting” concept a bit harder. I watched a really sloppy Bluecoats show at Delaware and was surprised they still beat BD that night. I thought slotting contributed to that result.
I'm gonna be so straight up, the way to end the confusion is to make judge tapes public. The fans being able to hear what the judges are thinking instead of just seeing the number will add so much validity (shouldn't be needed) But I think it will fix the problem
Y'all are so skeptical as if there is an incentive for judges to lie. There is very little money in this activity, by what metric is there evidence of corruption? You can hear and feel Jeff's genuine perspective here, you'd be hard pressed to find someone better suited to answer these questions.
For the record I'm not saying there is rigging, but would they ever actually say if there was? Seems like a silly question asked. Of course everyone says they take their job seriously when speaking on camera. Anyways what I would have loved to see are questions around judging consistency across the season and across different people judging the same category on different nights. Just look at percussion as an example, the scores are all over the place depending on who is judging.
@@shadowkille8r99what an obtuse comment. He served as a judge for a long time and is speaking on behalf of Judges from his experience as one. What was the point of your comment?
You should ask a statistician this question, not a judge. What else do you expect to hear? And at the end you summarize saying there is no bias when he clearly says there is human bias. You other vids are awesome, though.
When they no longer have a re evaluation after finals where scores can be and are changed, I will buy that it's a fair competition free of any politics or questionable ethics. Until then...
Whats wild is whenever BD looses Bluecoats wins; doesn't seen rigged to me. YES IT DOES!!! Phantom regiment deserved to win based on an entertainment aspect they stole the hearts of many this year.
Jeff is great, and he gives great tapes. However, he can only speak for himself when it comes to judging. This year has been the absolute WORST in terms of judges' tapes and scoring. Performance order dies matter to the majority of judges, and quite honestly, if you're not in the top 12, they could care less. The inconsistency of scoring from the bottom 3rd of the drum corps is proof enough.
Jeff may mean what he says but the fact that BD wins almost every year and the positions almost never change form the prelims to the finals tells me it is rigged to a point. BD always gets the high GE scores which make up a large part of the judging scores. Bluecoats and Phantom and even Boston Crusaders for example always have crowd pleasing and excitable shows. How is that not deserving of higher GE scores?
Because GE isn’t about having crowd pleasing shows. GE involves more in depth analysis of a shows concept that sometimes don’t resonate with audiences on face value. But that is why the judge with extensive experience and knowledge is tasked with deciding the score and it is not instead just a fan favorite vote.
When a group doesn't score well the blame really goes with the staff. Don't blame judges, who are experts in their fields and know more about the organization than even 90% of the people who have marched. Trust the green polo squad, they're not stupid and they're 5 feet from the horns and drums when they frak a lick.
I would actually argue that putting it in order of score makes it more fair. When you have groups that are close to the same score next to each other, it is easier to say which one was better since they are back to back. It’s not like a group is going to suddenly get 4 points better from semis to finals, and even if they do, then it will become very clear that they do when they are suddenly way better than everyone else they are performing next to
@@ChristopherNelson42 my point is that if you're say in the top 10 and stuck at 6 or 7, it's impossible to get into the top 3. Scouts were stuck at 12 but should have been top 10. There's no point in scoring if we're just going to issue medals in order of rankings going into the final weekend.
Why the hell is crowd response not a part of GE points? Phantom raised the roof In applause.. then BD comes on and a man is found knitting behind the drum major salute. Make it make sense
I think you're being incredibly dishonest in this video, and you outright refuse to point out the real criticisms that people have with DCI judging. The issue isn't that the judging system is rigged in favor of one particular corps. It's the fact that judges care more about show design and "pushing the envelope" rather than the quality of a performance. It is because of this that drum corps has turned into a competition not between performers, but between designers and staff. It very much takes away the spirit of competition and what made drum corps so special. That is what people take issue with.
You calling this interview dishonest is pretty narrow sighted. The purpose of this conversation is a direct response to the majority of the comments i have received regarding judging. If you feel that your personal opinion about this topic is somehow the end all be all opinion then you need to check yourself. Calling this interview “incredibly dishonest” is ironically the most dishonest take here.
Design really has no impact when judging anything but GE so I don’t know what you’re actually trying to say. The percussion judge isn’t considering design elements. He is looking at what the performers are being asked to do and how they are doing it.
@@RVVDont "Design really has no impact when judging anything but GE" Did you forget that GE accounts for 40% of a total score? It is basically the largest determining factory who wins and who doesn't. That is what I take issue with. Why should points be rewarded based off design rather than pure performance? That is what I mean when I say DCI has become a competition between designers rather than members. It is no longer a fair competition, but rather an unfair game that is pre-determined from the start of each given season. The judges rather reward points based on how well a show entertains them rather than by the evaluation of its performance.
@@CommandSnorlax2112 "The judges rather reward points based on how well a show entertains them rather than by the evaluation of its performance." This is factually incorrect. That is not how any caption especially GE is judged. Please find yourself the judging sheets and review them. I'd give you the link but apparently UA-cam doesn't like links in comments as I already tried.
Bc Crowd excitement has nothing to do with how a drumcorp performs? Lol. Obvi people are going to relate and react more to a Taylor swift song than Mozart. Let’s be fr
It's not rigged; it's designed differently than most people understand. More than half the sheet is down to composition. The execution score follows it with in a few tenths, which means the "staff" score is about 90% of the total. It's also designed to creep from 65 to 95+ over the season. By the time it's done, it's pretty much ordinals. It's not rigged -- it's designed to end up this way to give a "satisfying" ending. See: Star '93, Phantom '96, Phantom '08.
DCI is rigged because Santa Clara Vanguards trash ass drumline is not better than the Devs, Coats, or Crusaders drumline. Mfs are glazing the fuck out of them and it shows.🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
I would not call them trash but Mark Teal (Paul Rennick crew) just gave SCV percussion a 19.750 at semis and prelims they had a 19.4....yeah ok. Boston is still leading the average but it's anyone's game tonight
In what world is SCV not cleaner than the Devs or the Coats? BD has not gotten to their normal standard this year. Coats snareline is extremely inconsistent. You must be smoking that pack if you can’t just hear the difference. Boston is cracked af and so are SCV. It’s all up to who kills it ON FIELD. You guys place wayyyyy too much credit in watching lots or lot videos. Their performance in field matters… also show design lol.
![Try to Beat me at Violin [🎻100 Violin Giveaway]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ctIbXWIHVXo/mqdefault.jpg)
Marched BK in 2009 and 2010 under Jeff. He's so well spoken and easy to listen to. One of the best teachers I've ever had.
I think one of the biggest things DCI could do to help with some of these questions is to share blank judges sheets. That way fans can learn about how the corps are being evaluated.
They do. You can find them online
They absolutely do!
Or rotate and audit the judges
As a huge drum corps fan who's never marched DCI , I am still really interested in people's roles like this. It really gives an outsider like me a different perspective and makes me appreciate this art even more!!! Great video, I look forward to more interviews like this if possible!
How is pioneer not in 1st? DCI is rigged this year
Nah bro. Did you see the buccaneers and the Spartans?
@@SuperDK09 It was a joke, Pioneer folded a while ago.
@@Jekkin Oh. I need to not be so slow
sebastion is that you?
Can’t believe Cadets didn’t win this year, absolutely rigged
DCI just needs to publish the judges tape to their website. Not necessarily for each show but certainly the regional ones along with prelims, semis and finals. If there’s nothing to hide then put the information out there for all to hear.
there are plenty of judge tapes available on UA-cam
I guess this is along the same lines as "is it rigged" but can we get a comment on slotting? From San Antonio to finals there has been almost no shake up in placements at all. Are all the groups so consistent that there just isn't that much movement? Like why does it seem a group will never be 3'rd one night, 5'th the next, and back to 2'nd? When I marched I remember having some absolute disaster shows and some that felt amazing but seemed our placement was always the same. Or maybe it is just a concequence of the score sheet itself with each subcaption not actually being worth a ton of points so a terrible run for drums isn't going to put you down 3 places one night in overall score? Which I guess you could argue makes the system more fair because one bad run doesn't total your overall score, but does make the competition aspect less interesting throughout the season.
Not completely sure, but I think the sub-captions do tend to move around a decent amount like you mentioned. But when you add everything up those fluctuations tend average out more.
Well if it's rigged it will be easy to tell. DCI would go bankrupt and before that a lot of major corps will bleed membership. Oh wait 😂
DCI's judging system is probably the most rigorously systematically scrutinized and quality controlled competitive judging system of its kind. All judges have extensive training and experience as performers and teachers not only in their disciplines but specifically in being as consistant as possible in their evaluation process of ranking, rating, and giving real time accurate educationally constructive feedback for instructors and kids.
Only the judical system used in this activity/sport nobody should be able to win by A tenth of point only by clock is a competitor that good
Lmao
jeff!!! he worked as one of the directors at my alma mater
Jeff is a high-quality human being.
Really insightful interview. Thanks! Many fans don’t understand the judging process or the intricacies of the product being presented on the field. Staff and design are so important - from a scoring standpoint, from the standpoint of attracting top talent, and being able to develop that talent and to peak at exactly the right time.
Jeff's a legend, forget the scores because the kids at blue knights are getting an incredible experience day in/day out.
2:33 Ain’t no way that’s the RCR front ensemble techs walking by.
Great interview Everett. Really appreciated hearing Jeff’s insights. I only wish you would have hit the “slotting” concept a bit harder. I watched a really sloppy Bluecoats show at Delaware and was surprised they still beat BD that night. I thought slotting contributed to that result.
I'm gonna be so straight up, the way to end the confusion is to make judge tapes public. The fans being able to hear what the judges are thinking instead of just seeing the number will add so much validity (shouldn't be needed) But I think it will fix the problem
there are plenty of judge tapes available on UA-cam
Y'all are so skeptical as if there is an incentive for judges to lie. There is very little money in this activity, by what metric is there evidence of corruption? You can hear and feel Jeff's genuine perspective here, you'd be hard pressed to find someone better suited to answer these questions.
Great insight and explanation from Jeff! Thanks for doing this.
This was one of my favorite of your videos.
I saw you in the suites yesterday, I was too nervous to say hi 😬
We need more videos like this. Thank you!
For the record I'm not saying there is rigging, but would they ever actually say if there was? Seems like a silly question asked. Of course everyone says they take their job seriously when speaking on camera.
Anyways what I would have loved to see are questions around judging consistency across the season and across different people judging the same category on different nights. Just look at percussion as an example, the scores are all over the place depending on who is judging.
What job? He’s no longer a judge
@@shadowkille8r99what an obtuse comment. He served as a judge for a long time and is speaking on behalf of Judges from his experience as one. What was the point of your comment?
will there be reaction videos this year?
You should ask a statistician this question, not a judge. What else do you expect to hear?
And at the end you summarize saying there is no bias when he clearly says there is human bias.
You other vids are awesome, though.
love jeff ausdemore
When they no longer have a re evaluation after finals where scores can be and are changed, I will buy that it's a fair competition free of any politics or questionable ethics. Until then...
Jeff was truly one of the nicest men in the entire activity.
His name is how I subdivide 5lets…..
Op por tu ni ty
Amazing content!
Whats wild is whenever BD looses Bluecoats wins; doesn't seen rigged to me. YES IT DOES!!! Phantom regiment deserved to win based on an entertainment aspect they stole the hearts of many this year.
You can hear Crossmen rehearsing in the background lmao
Or when the corp with the weakest drill wins 3x in a row
How did madison scouts not get top 5?
Jeff is so real!
What about the G.E captions? GENERAL EFFECT? Both words are highly subjective.....
That's exactly what a judge would say if it was rigged.
Why did bro post at 4 am 💀 love the content though
Jeff is great, and he gives great tapes. However, he can only speak for himself when it comes to judging. This year has been the absolute WORST in terms of judges' tapes and scoring. Performance order dies matter to the majority of judges, and quite honestly, if you're not in the top 12, they could care less. The inconsistency of scoring from the bottom 3rd of the drum corps is proof enough.
8:07 💀
Jeff may mean what he says but the fact that BD wins almost every year and the positions almost never change form the prelims to the finals tells me it is rigged to a point. BD always gets the high GE scores which make up a large part of the judging scores. Bluecoats and Phantom and even Boston Crusaders for example always have crowd pleasing and excitable shows. How is that not deserving of higher GE scores?
Because GE isn’t about having crowd pleasing shows. GE involves more in depth analysis of a shows concept that sometimes don’t resonate with audiences on face value. But that is why the judge with extensive experience and knowledge is tasked with deciding the score and it is not instead just a fan favorite vote.
well done amigo!
Politics and favorites.
Because if it was he’d tell you….🤦♂️🙄
Funny how he posted this just as BD won’t win again …
😐
Haha funny
"Won't" mmmm strong word😂
It wasn't rigged when they three-peated. It wasn't rigged when they got bronze
I do not attend any more
BROO
It’s only rigged when BD wins. 😂
Asking a politician of the government is corrupt is crazyyy
BLOOOO
Please react to Phantom this year. Incredible!
When a group doesn't score well the blame really goes with the staff. Don't blame judges, who are experts in their fields and know more about the organization than even 90% of the people who have marched. Trust the green polo squad, they're not stupid and they're 5 feet from the horns and drums when they frak a lick.
May not be rigged, but it's definitely biased when the corps appear in order of score.
I would actually argue that putting it in order of score makes it more fair. When you have groups that are close to the same score next to each other, it is easier to say which one was better since they are back to back. It’s not like a group is going to suddenly get 4 points better from semis to finals, and even if they do, then it will become very clear that they do when they are suddenly way better than everyone else they are performing next to
@@ChristopherNelson42 my point is that if you're say in the top 10 and stuck at 6 or 7, it's impossible to get into the top 3. Scouts were stuck at 12 but should have been top 10. There's no point in scoring if we're just going to issue medals in order of rankings going into the final weekend.
Why the hell is crowd response not a part of GE points? Phantom raised the roof In applause.. then BD comes on and a man is found knitting behind the drum major salute. Make it make sense
Because that’s insane. Why would you have crowd response be any part of the score? That’s as crazy as the old tick system and the inspection scores.
lol I could imagine just sabotaging a deserved win from a group by the crowd just not reacting on purpose just because they want another group to win
Controlled opposition
BD didn't lose, they bronzed. 😉 Also, when Bluecoats win 19 titles almost back to back then we'll cry "rigged". 😂😂😂
I think you're being incredibly dishonest in this video, and you outright refuse to point out the real criticisms that people have with DCI judging.
The issue isn't that the judging system is rigged in favor of one particular corps. It's the fact that judges care more about show design and "pushing the envelope" rather than the quality of a performance. It is because of this that drum corps has turned into a competition not between performers, but between designers and staff. It very much takes away the spirit of competition and what made drum corps so special. That is what people take issue with.
You calling this interview dishonest is pretty narrow sighted. The purpose of this conversation is a direct response to the majority of the comments i have received regarding judging. If you feel that your personal opinion about this topic is somehow the end all be all opinion then you need to check yourself. Calling this interview “incredibly dishonest” is ironically the most dishonest take here.
Design really has no impact when judging anything but GE so I don’t know what you’re actually trying to say. The percussion judge isn’t considering design elements. He is looking at what the performers are being asked to do and how they are doing it.
@@RVVDont "Design really has no impact when judging anything but GE"
Did you forget that GE accounts for 40% of a total score? It is basically the largest determining factory who wins and who doesn't. That is what I take issue with. Why should points be rewarded based off design rather than pure performance?
That is what I mean when I say DCI has become a competition between designers rather than members. It is no longer a fair competition, but rather an unfair game that is pre-determined from the start of each given season. The judges rather reward points based on how well a show entertains them rather than by the evaluation of its performance.
@@CommandSnorlax2112 "The judges rather reward points based on how well a show entertains them rather than by the evaluation of its performance."
This is factually incorrect. That is not how any caption especially GE is judged. Please find yourself the judging sheets and review them.
I'd give you the link but apparently UA-cam doesn't like links in comments as I already tried.
@@RVVDont Ny dude, you literally just said that GE rewards design. How is my statement false?
Okay, not rigged, but crowd excitement doesn’t translate to general effect…?!?!?
Bc Crowd excitement has nothing to do with how a drumcorp performs? Lol. Obvi people are going to relate and react more to a Taylor swift song than Mozart. Let’s be fr
star of indiana robbed
It's not rigged; it's designed differently than most people understand. More than half the sheet is down to composition. The execution score follows it with in a few tenths, which means the "staff" score is about 90% of the total. It's also designed to creep from 65 to 95+ over the season. By the time it's done, it's pretty much ordinals. It's not rigged -- it's designed to end up this way to give a "satisfying" ending. See: Star '93, Phantom '96, Phantom '08.
“I’m not hearing that this year now that the Bluecoats are winning” you’ve posted like 2 videos this season, you haven’t heard us much at all 😂
DCI is rigged because Santa Clara Vanguards trash ass drumline is not better than the Devs, Coats, or Crusaders drumline. Mfs are glazing the fuck out of them and it shows.🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
I would not call them trash but Mark Teal (Paul Rennick crew) just gave SCV percussion a 19.750 at semis and prelims they had a 19.4....yeah ok. Boston is still leading the average but it's anyone's game tonight
Relax man, those 4 corps have outstanding drum lines and caption competition are a 3 night thing
Gooooo TROOP!!!!!?????
In what world is SCV not cleaner than the Devs or the Coats? BD has not gotten to their normal standard this year. Coats snareline is extremely inconsistent. You must be smoking that pack if you can’t just hear the difference. Boston is cracked af and so are SCV. It’s all up to who kills it ON FIELD. You guys place wayyyyy too much credit in watching lots or lot videos. Their performance in field matters… also show design lol.
@@CBeauford5almost like they got better after listening to judges tapes and making those changes.