I think for those of you who are just a little bit technical interested these services are just a waste of money. You monitor your heat pumpe efficiency ever now and then, top up the water if the pressure is too low, flush the filter, and listen if your fan makes funny noises. This is easily done in the time you are waiting for the technician to arrive. There is nothing to service with the compressor (when was the last time you had your fridge serviced?) and the electronics. If it breaks it breaks and then you can call a technician. And as Tom was mentioning: this is not a gas boiler which can blow up your house but just a ... fridge !!
It will be an inverter compressor ,basically speed controlled to maintain optimal refrigerant pressure. The only way to measure the refrigerant level is to weigh it out and back in again. So the simplest way to make sure everything is working ok is with water in/out temperature with the flow rate. And compare that with the power draw..So basically making sure it is running as efficiently as when it was first installed.This the customer can do themselves if the system gives it's C.O.P.
From a heating engineer, im going to say your advice is complete and utter nonsense. Your warranty on a 7k unit is dictated by the annual service. If its missed, no warranty if something goes wrong. You want to pay over 1k for just the pcb? or would you rather is under warranty and not have to fork out for something you should of got serviced? All these checks are paramount to the efficiency and longevity of your system. If you have absolutely no experience in this field then stop making stupid comments online.
@@colin4685 I think " utter nonsense " is a bit harsh. My time is money, so I never read the full terms and conditions in the installers or customers manual. But next install I'll read it and get back to you on that. Normally as the installer I replace the faulty part and take the cost on the chin,as it's not worth the time putting in the warranty claim through the wholesaler. However I have replaced a compressor on a 70kw system compressor. And the manufacturer did require a section of pipework with a brazed joint to confirm the system had been installed with nitrogen purge brazed joints. No mention from them regarding servicing.
@@colin4685 so these services are only really worthwhile to maintain the warranty, and once you're out of the warranty period they're not really worthwhile provided you keep an eye on how the system is performing?
Interesting video and something I have considered too. Agree, gas boiler service is more essential for safety reasons. I'd say keep getting the annual HP service till your HP warranty (which likely depends on an annual service) expires, and then get the HP serviced every 3 to 5 years, assuming you're doing your own housekeeping (clearing leaves etc) I grew up in NZ and Singapore with A2A heat pumps (A/C only in Singapore!) and my parents used to get them serviced about every 7 years, where from memory, the refrigerant needed a slight top up. We'd do our own regular checks, ensuring leaves etc weren't blocking anything.
Thanks for sharing your fascinating insights. We're in the process of having an ashp installed by Octopus and our quote includes an optional £9 monthly service charge, not sure what it entails yet but feels like the way to go.
I have an Air to Air Heatpump in Spain for 20 years now. Warm in winter cold in summer. Never maintenance. works perfectly. Just clean the dust in the house air fans once a year. Never ever maintenance.
Looking at that, unless you have a lot of microbore in the property, the buffer tank is not required as the circulation pump in the HP should be more than capable for enough flow around the house. Would be worth an experiment to turn the buffer into a volumiser but it is labour from an engineer which is £.
Advise on buffer tank; have it removed and see if the user interface recognises any flow related issues. If not, dont have it reconnected and the efficiency will improve. If the user interface recognises flow issues have the buffer tank reconnected.
So you had a conversation about whether the buffer tank is needed - but what was actually said? For an extreme comparison, I haven't had my A2A mini-split heat pumps serviced in the 22 years I have had them - they only run cooling for a few weeks in the summer and then heating for a similar amount in the winter but still, no servicing required and not a single problem. I do give them a once over every few months but that really only involves checking for any debris stuck in the fans and listening to them to ensure there are no unusual sounds. That said, my boiler is 27 years old and has only been serviced a few times for H+S checks as you mentioned. You could take the approach of saving up the £225 per year as a repair fund in case something goes wrong, then have a preventive service once every 5 years. Remember they are full of tech so will no doubt report any issues as they develop. However, some warranties REQUIRE an annual service to remain valid.
Hi, I took out a service plan for £9 per month with Octopus and seem to be quite good so far, they do open up the heat pump and do checks etc and change the filter if it needs it, spend about 1hr 1/2 roughly.
That sounds like good value for money, unfortunately only available for people who had Octopus installs... Vaillant don't seem to have a heat pump service plan at the moment. Maybe in the future! Tom
Thanks Rowan, that is an interesting suggestion. Not in a rush to do that but if I find a friendly heat pump installer / plumber, I have a list of things that I could do!
When an anti-freeze valve operates the water is drained out of the unit. If you can't pressurize and vent it yourself there's a call out charge and labour charge straight away. Good luck getting someone in a hurry.
Agree with your conclusion (performance vs safety), but your warranty is only valid if you get an annual service. So I intend to continue servicing until the end of the warranty period.
Heat geek engineer who fitted ours did it for £150 + VAT. But I would view it as a critical system check. Yes, most times they find nothing. But worth it for the one time they find something. Imagine discovering your refrigerant levels are low in mid January and you have no heating. Worth it for the peace of mind in my view. Costs will come down as adoption goes up.
I've just paid £250 for a service on my 2 year old Daikin Altherma with a small independent outfit here in Cornwall. Last year I paid £225 to have it done by the people who supplied (not fitted) it. I had a newish BAXI combi in my previous owse and a BAXI engineer used to service it for £90. I may be an old git (72) but I used to service cars back in the day so I could/would certainly be okay with cleaning the external fan housing, Magnaclean etc. I've even had a 'play' with the installer settings :)
When the compressor fails, or the circuit board, will the manufacturer honour the warranty, even though you serviced it?. That's the question!..and the next question is how much is a compressor or circuit board?. LOTS😂£££
Thanks for this, Tom. We had our first full service done in June and it was a very thorough examination (Vaillant as well) - it was done by our installer so they actually found a couple of small things they'd missed a year previous (further insulating some pipework, etc.) The safety critical thing is the important bit for me, so I'm wondering if, as the years pass, we might consider less regular servicing of our heat pump (maybe every two or three years?) ... or maybe installers will have two tiers of servicing. One cheap and cheerful option for giving the system a quick once over, and another more in depth service that costs more. There's also the option of paying a monthly fee to spread the cost of things, which a lot of people have with their boilers. I'd probably quite happily pay £15/month to cover a service plus call out for emergency works.
My heatpump had its first service this year, it's a Stiebel Eltron system and the service was carried out by the people who installed it. The cost was £180 which seemed reasonable compared to the average around £200 I saw online. Since it was a new system there weren't any problems but a couple of adjustments were made to improve efficiency, so it was mainly for peace of mind and to keep the 7 year warranty active. Value for money is subjective and I tend to view it in a similar manner to insurance: something that is quite expensive and would be inconvenient if it broke and I couldn't afford to fix it is worth insuring, while something cheap and easy to replace is not.
I'm a plumber/electrician and used to have the G3 unvented qualification , this is required to install and service cylinders and requires re taking at 5yr intervals at a £230+ vat cost + lost income doing it. It should apply to gas , direct electric and heatpump cylinders. As with everything these days its cost of training, insurance and competent scheme membership. But having accountability for the safety from legionella and correct installation is important. I have my oldest cylinder in service now for 20yrs so l have one in my own home. I can shower in a power cut and dump surplus PV into it as a 10 Kwh battery with the added benefit of duel heat sources for reliability combined with a good flow rate.
Very interesting. Our new Aira heatpump has 15 year guarantee with no service requirements. I double checked this several times. I guess they believe there's no health and safety requirement and will just fix as and when needed. It's a few hundred pounds saving over other installers but time will tell if it's a sensible approach.
That is amazing , & their website says that is still the case. That moves them up my installer list. .. I Guess a HP is combo of a fridge, an inverter & a computer.. none of which have service items
@@brackcycle9056 We had a few issues early on that needed some aftercare support. 2 extra days work for them upgrading some extra existing pipes, with no hesitation or quibbling. There aftercare has been spot on. Best looking external heat pump IMO and 12 months interest free too.
@@yahyad25 I went direct. Aira build and install there own heat pumps. No subcontractors to be seen. I did initially go with octopus. That was supposed to be £1.5k cheaper, but they deemed my heat loss to high and refunded my deposit. Aira also disagreed with Octopus's heat loss estimate and my own heat loss calculation was much lower too. Aira were second cheapest after other rough quotes from Heat Geek, EDF's partner CB Heating. Aira Cost me £6100 for a 8kW system with 5 radiator changes.
Going back to basics, my old gas boiler alone attracts an annual charge of £100 to do sweet FA. It's 18 years old and, unlike modern Combi and other condensing boilers there's not much to do other than a draw test and vacuuming any dust out. They used to dismantle the burner assembly and pilot light and blow away debris but they don't do that now until such time that the burners would not light up and so a specific visit had to be made to rectify that. It's a racket, I tell you. They play on one's fears tbh.
That is good to know. Sounds like they did a good job. Hopefully prices will come down as more people have heat pumps and the service interval will increase.
A suitably competent engineer with relevant valid certification can service your Vaillant ASHP without affecting the warranty, as stated in their terms and conditions.
One thing I might query would be need to check refrigerant level @ 4:45, direct testing would involve some slight leakage of refrigerant I would have thought. I assume (a dangerous word) that the HP would monitor and report any loss of refrigerant pressure over time as a fault, at which point a check and top up might be required.
Hi Dougaldog - I thought he was using this kind of kit to check around the compressor - derbyshire-refrigeration.co.uk/products/hvac-tools-refrigeration-tools/leak-detection-equipment/electronic-leak-detection/?srsltid=AfmBOoo1kgF_MzIgIMI6FkNlacr-WhfqdYIt78isyzeHbQrzaprejtYT I guess that would sniff any evidence of leak....? But I may have misunderstood! Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thank you for your reply Tom. That would certainly make more sense rather than directly checking refrigerant pressure. But similarly if it had been leaking any detectable amount I would think the system itself would be flagging up a fault. Doing my sums, my Daikin is available for @ £2900 before VAT, or about 14.5 services, makes one wonder about any real added value these give. I'll be in a similar situation in February next year when 1st is due. The devil in me wonders if it would be worth forsaking the warranty and just paying for any repairs as required. Barring the refrigerant circuit I could likely sort any other bits.
We're paying around £200 pa for an oil boiler service which includes bits and pieces that just need replacing (filters etc.) so £225 is not that much more, but that includes some of the safety issues as well. The thing is what of that could you do yourself to make sure it stays working like checking the efficiency etc.?
I’d have thought a replacement of the bearings and a clean of the HX would have been part of a service. But then again I know nothing about this stuff!
For reference, Baxi charge £109 for a gas boiler service. Like you say, unless you are a qualified person, you won't know what to look for, best get someone who is to check it every year.
The advertised savings by going to a heat pump from gas could be wiped out if that price goes up, waiting for my quote for install, after this video will have to look closer at the costings as pay £75 for my gas boiler service each year just to keep the warranty active
Interesting not really talked about on YT. We have had ours 2 years and I have yet to get a service. The cylinder is only an explosion risk with the immersion as the heatpump can't boil water. So with this disconnected it feels less essential. Annual feels a bit arbitrary. I think 18months and doing your own checks for leaks and debris in the air intake is probably OK. 50% saving. It also depends if you are periodically checking efficency and consumption which may well highlight an issue if they change unusually.
@MikeGleesonazelectrics no we never use the immersion. The heatpump can only get the tank to 70degrees so is self limiting from a saftey stand point. A faulty immersion thermostat could heat the water beyond boiling and result in an explosion theoretically. But there are pressure relief valves that would have to also fail so a pretty low risk.
If you think that then you are living in dreamland. This is a great way to keep the service price high as it’s an overcomplicated system and not many trained professionals that actually understand the basics!! You have the job of an air conditioning expert and heating engineer combined! And going to make you pay through the nose for it!!!
I'm dubious about the annual boiler / heat pump service. Seems to me like an easy cashflow stream for those offering the services. I'm in the process of working out how to replace our 20 something year old combi boiler (pre condensing) when it finally expires and the complexities of replacing a combi boiler with a heat pump, hot water tank and replumbing the radiators with are on 8mm copper microbore from a 22mm manifold. The house is an 1870's terrace with solid two leaf brick walls and is partially internally insulated which has been added as we have done renovation work. The thing with the boiler is, we do not have it annually serviced. In it's life it has had one diverter valve, one heat exchanger and one external fill loop. It is a Vaillant. We are so far about the price of a replacement boiler to the good. I think that I would go for a Vaillant heat pump but I am more likely to service it once every 3 years and just remove the covers myself and vacuum out any debris each September. Naturally I would have any "free" services just for warranty purposes. I might just video them though.
Thanks for engaging with the video Michael - I completely understanding about the cashflow stream. Frustrating! Sounds like a good plan your end, possibly a bit of work to do to facilitate a heat pump transition, as you identify, but particularly moving from a non-condensing boiler to a heat pump should see some significant reduction in costs / emissions
I agree with the last comment - it’s a fridge (but with a large fan motor)….. there is NOTHING TO SERVICE ….. the pcbs either function or not and there is nothing to test. What you paid is a rip off …. BUT some decades ago so was a gas boiler service which has now reduced to a level of paying same money as you did but for an annual maintenance contract that includes the replacement of any faulty parts and includes multiple call outs if required in the contract period ….. Heat pump service pricing will go the same way once the industry and insurers like Domestic & General get their head around that these are FRIDGES !!
Fair point Joe - thanks for commenting. It does feel like Vaillant can charge a fortune because there is a lack of understanding about heat pumps, and therefore a lack of service engineers... but I agree costs may well come down in the future.
Hi Dave, the system did not require any replacement, except for slight refill with glycol, and yes that was included. If there was any other work, I think that would not be not be included in the price of the service Tom
Hi Norman - not necessarily pressures, but he did use a bit of kit that appeared to be detecting leaked or leaking refrigerant - it was something like this - derbyshire-refrigeration.co.uk/products/hvac-tools-refrigeration-tools/leak-detection-equipment/electronic-leak-detection/?srsltid=AfmBOoo1HLS7Dqt0mDvlD-U9ozIWk1Y6-nwtZ_d1ozZCP9L0L8Db0Pdi Tom
Mmmm - you would only use them if you suspected a leak after evidence of under performance. I think the technician was rather keener to impress than to establish the presence of a leak.
My service engineer said the only way to accurately check the refrig loss was to remove and weigh the vessel.. a very expensive job, not done with the annual service!
Your webcam could do with a service too -- i.e. cleaned..! As to the cost - I can tell it hurt by the number of times you repeat it - perhaps it is easier to rationalise if you see it like having your car serviced. Compared with the cost of the installation it does not seem unreasonable if you budget for it over each year.
Is the warranty voided without having a yearly service.... It does seem like its an excessive expense... Every year! Maybe every 3 years would be more practical
Insurance is all about pease of mind ,but I think the cost of the service is extortionate and could be mitigated. After all it’s not going to kill you. But as I said, pease of mind.
you can expect costs about that all the time from the official lists, next time try the heat geek list as well in your area, the life should be good for 8 years most of the time, typical failures are normally compressor, fan , general corrosion, (something that will see more in the uk due to moisture in air, other things like sinkagae of pump on service can also happen over time, requiring straighten, but that's normally on heaver units, as well as the refrigerant causing significant ice build up more than normal in cold conditions, an easy identifier is a cooler than normal and higher energy basis, keep the regular maintained , even dirt and leaf build up can cause issues, keeping the coil from defrosting which leads to rust / pin hole corrosion. my experince was a lot worse thank yours due to poor install and lack of 2nd company support, in the end mitsubishi sent someone they recommended with a local rep to evaluate they found a tonn wrong that would have cost thousands to fix, so the main property reverted to propaine, the annax however still uses a split air to air 16kwh with zero problems, so far all they have found is the usual leaf buld up, and capacitor issue that was causing it not to turn on when called this was a factory issue so was changed under warranty. but a re-gas is needed every 12-18 months for ref
Having watched it could you do the servicing side of it your self ? . You need a qualification to repair the f-gas circuit, but not clean the fins. . Afterall we are used to servicing cars our selves.. Can cleaning filters & fins really be more difficult that oil changing or changing a brake cylinder. Octopus (£9/month plan) is cheapest, but it needs to be their install.. £225 ( pay in advance rather than invoice afterwards !) is one whole days pay if you are on £50k/year. Regarding the Non-vented tank , you need a G3 qualification to service it as a plumper , it is a one day course £150, so would soon pay for its self.
Gas boiler cost about £900 average and costs £75 ish to serve. Ashp cost £3000 average and costs £200 ish to service. You dont buy a Ferrari and take it to ford garage for cheap service . Annul service if done correctly maintains the efficiency
Have to say your Heat Pump clearances don't look great to me, should have 500mm of the right hand side. Surprised the engineer did not flag this, as Vaillant are very anal where we are in the south. When I do a service, I'm more interested with the electrics, how the compressor is running, how much current is it drawing. (the electrics can be just as bad as some plumbing) of an install. We don't check the refrigerant as it is a sealed circuit, its also propane R290, this in theory should never leak. (you don't regas/check you refrigerant in your fridge at home every year.) I am qualified F Gas engineer, we only start messing around with the refrigerant circuit if the system is have errors and pointing to that being the issue. Its better to install the particle filter inside and this makes it easier for maintenance.
Thanks Ken, some helpful points there. Yes I think that it was installed too close on the right hand side, the service engineer did not mention this, but I had picked this up previously, and fairly disappointed that our installer did this. It does not seem to be causing too much of a problem Thanks for the helpful context more broadly. All the best Tom
Engineer or Technician? As a CEng yourself do you ever question how much studying and effort it’s taken to get to where you are? Value for money - no. It’s called being fleeced on the premise of retaining your warranty.
Bought a new house and got someone in to service the heat pumps - absolute and total rip off. Took them much less time than servicing my old gas boiler and charged 4x the price.
£225.00 for 90 minutes, is that plus vat ? Any way the guy has to be trained that costs money, his van has to be paid forms well as his fuel, insurance and traveling time. His tools and business insurance then holidays and pension, national insurance stamp incidentals in this case a small amount of glycol (that ain't cheap) so what you break it down it isn't very much and as I said to one customer who asked about price increase when hovering out their boiler I explained the cost of electricity has gone up 😉😂😂😂
You are not the 1st to suggest that...! I am recording on my phone but had my screen replaced recently at an independent phone repair guy - learnt my lesson, lots of issues with it - including quality of camera.... I'll do my best to improve! Tom
Sorry mate but £225 for a wash and brush up!! And check round. That’s only going to get dearer . Still not looking like a good deal. It’s just wiped out your savings for a year. I have had 2 gree outdoor units for 8 years and never serviced them. Engineer said to call him if they ever break. my gas boiler service is £50, cleans out the trap and checks the emissions. Running at 96% efficiency. Have you worked out the energy/cost used when it cycles to thaw out the radiator?
Heat pumps are a waste of money and running costs are too high. As for a service my gas boiler service is £70 which ensures my Worcester Bosch guarantee remains valid. WB guarantee is for 10 years.
Thanks for engaging with the video and your helpful comment. I did a video on heat pump finances Are heat pumps a good investment? The answer might surprise you ua-cam.com/video/hYcW65Oz3qI/v-deo.html Unfortunately gas boilers are poisoning our air and contributing to climate change. So they aren’t an option anymore… sorry!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestylemeanwhile in China coal fired stations. In India coal fired power stations and diesel power stations. The stupid thing we do is use gas to generate considerable amounts of electricity and have a very much over powered heat pump for a minimal times when we have severe cold. It would be far better to use gas when the temperature is very cold or when we need to heat water and use a much smaller heat pump to run when the outside temperature is higher or even an air to air heat pumps. It’s daft to create massive amounts of demand in the winter when we be mostly reliant on wind and nuclear from a low emissions perspective and therefore have to have massive amounts of under used gas power stations backups. I’m not anti heat pumps but there is no simple swap out because they are not a replacement for boilers if you take into account the entirety of the generation. We are looking at a huge increase in cost for us while most other countries are still continuing generating vast amounts of co2. we produce less that 1% of the worlds emissions.
I think for those of you who are just a little bit technical interested these services are just a waste of money. You monitor your heat pumpe efficiency ever now and then, top up the water if the pressure is too low, flush the filter, and listen if your fan makes funny noises. This is easily done in the time you are waiting for the technician to arrive. There is nothing to service with the compressor (when was the last time you had your fridge serviced?) and the electronics. If it breaks it breaks and then you can call a technician. And as Tom was mentioning: this is not a gas boiler which can blow up your house but just a ... fridge !!
It will be an inverter compressor ,basically speed controlled to maintain optimal refrigerant pressure. The only way to measure the refrigerant level is to weigh it out and back in again. So the simplest way to make sure everything is working ok is with water in/out temperature with the flow rate. And compare that with the power draw..So basically making sure it is running as efficiently as when it was first installed.This the customer can do themselves if the system gives it's C.O.P.
From a heating engineer, im going to say your advice is complete and utter nonsense. Your warranty on a 7k unit is dictated by the annual service. If its missed, no warranty if something goes wrong. You want to pay over 1k for just the pcb? or would you rather is under warranty and not have to fork out for something you should of got serviced? All these checks are paramount to the efficiency and longevity of your system. If you have absolutely no experience in this field then stop making stupid comments online.
@@colin4685 I think " utter nonsense " is a bit harsh. My time is money, so I never read the full terms and conditions in the installers or customers manual. But next install I'll read it and get back to you on that. Normally as the installer I replace the faulty part and take the cost on the chin,as it's not worth the time putting in the warranty claim through the wholesaler. However I have replaced a compressor on a 70kw system compressor. And the manufacturer did require a section of pipework with a brazed joint to confirm the system had been installed with nitrogen purge brazed joints. No mention from them regarding servicing.
@@colin4685 so these services are only really worthwhile to maintain the warranty, and once you're out of the warranty period they're not really worthwhile provided you keep an eye on how the system is performing?
Interesting video and something I have considered too. Agree, gas boiler service is more essential for safety reasons. I'd say keep getting the annual HP service till your HP warranty (which likely depends on an annual service) expires, and then get the HP serviced every 3 to 5 years, assuming you're doing your own housekeeping (clearing leaves etc)
I grew up in NZ and Singapore with A2A heat pumps (A/C only in Singapore!) and my parents used to get them serviced about every 7 years, where from memory, the refrigerant needed a slight top up. We'd do our own regular checks, ensuring leaves etc weren't blocking anything.
Thanks Aidan, that is helpful
Turn the outdoor unit off. Rinse off any debris on the evaporator coil with a garden hose, turn the isolator back on and done.
Fair enough, I think they did a bit more than that, but can't hurt!
Thanks for sharing your fascinating insights. We're in the process of having an ashp installed by Octopus and our quote includes an optional £9 monthly service charge, not sure what it entails yet but feels like the way to go.
Hello - thanks for engaging with the video, yes I would agree, that seems like a reasonable cost and a sensible thing to do!
Tom
I have an Air to Air Heatpump in Spain for 20 years now. Warm in winter cold in summer. Never maintenance. works perfectly. Just clean the dust in the house air fans once a year. Never ever maintenance.
Looking at that, unless you have a lot of microbore in the property, the buffer tank is not required as the circulation pump in the HP should be more than capable for enough flow around the house. Would be worth an experiment to turn the buffer into a volumiser but it is labour from an engineer which is £.
Advise on buffer tank; have it removed and see if the user interface recognises any flow related issues. If not, dont have it reconnected and the efficiency will improve. If the user interface recognises flow issues have the buffer tank reconnected.
Thanks for the advice, something we may look into one day but not a priority at the moment
Tom
One thing to remember here that is Vaillant are the last people you should use for anything, especially service.
Why is that Neil?
So you had a conversation about whether the buffer tank is needed - but what was actually said?
For an extreme comparison, I haven't had my A2A mini-split heat pumps serviced in the 22 years I have had them - they only run cooling for a few weeks in the summer and then heating for a similar amount in the winter but still, no servicing required and not a single problem. I do give them a once over every few months but that really only involves checking for any debris stuck in the fans and listening to them to ensure there are no unusual sounds.
That said, my boiler is 27 years old and has only been serviced a few times for H+S checks as you mentioned.
You could take the approach of saving up the £225 per year as a repair fund in case something goes wrong, then have a preventive service once every 5 years. Remember they are full of tech so will no doubt report any issues as they develop. However, some warranties REQUIRE an annual service to remain valid.
Do you have a video of the actual installation and space needed ? I think one of the videos has it but very briefly
Hi, I took out a service plan for £9 per month with Octopus and seem to be quite good so far, they do open up the heat pump and do checks etc and change the filter if it needs it, spend about 1hr 1/2 roughly.
That sounds like good value for money, unfortunately only available for people who had Octopus installs...
Vaillant don't seem to have a heat pump service plan at the moment.
Maybe in the future!
Tom
Add the antifreeze valve on the pipe outside and remove the glycol from the water. It will make it more efficient.
Thanks Rowan, that is an interesting suggestion. Not in a rush to do that but if I find a friendly heat pump installer / plumber, I have a list of things that I could do!
@ the specific heat capacity of water drops buy about 10% when mixed with glycol, pure water can hold more heat and is easier on your pumps
When an anti-freeze valve operates the water is drained out of the unit. If you can't pressurize and vent it yourself there's a call out charge and labour charge straight away. Good luck getting someone in a hurry.
Agree with your conclusion (performance vs safety), but your warranty is only valid if you get an annual service. So I intend to continue servicing until the end of the warranty period.
Heat geek engineer who fitted ours did it for £150 + VAT. But I would view it as a critical system check. Yes, most times they find nothing. But worth it for the one time they find something. Imagine discovering your refrigerant levels are low in mid January and you have no heating. Worth it for the peace of mind in my view. Costs will come down as adoption goes up.
I've just paid £250 for a service on my 2 year old Daikin Altherma with a small independent outfit here in Cornwall. Last year I paid £225 to have it done by the people who supplied (not fitted) it. I had a newish BAXI combi in my previous owse and a BAXI engineer used to service it for £90.
I may be an old git (72) but I used to service cars back in the day so I could/would certainly be okay with cleaning the external fan housing, Magnaclean etc. I've even had a 'play' with the installer settings :)
Thanks Virgil - that is helpful context. Maybe I should be braver to do some more of the service myself...!
When the compressor fails, or the circuit board, will the manufacturer honour the warranty, even though you serviced it?. That's the question!..and the next question is how much is a compressor or circuit board?. LOTS😂£££
@@adriandarke5393we’ll see!
Thanks for this, Tom. We had our first full service done in June and it was a very thorough examination (Vaillant as well) - it was done by our installer so they actually found a couple of small things they'd missed a year previous (further insulating some pipework, etc.)
The safety critical thing is the important bit for me, so I'm wondering if, as the years pass, we might consider less regular servicing of our heat pump (maybe every two or three years?) ... or maybe installers will have two tiers of servicing. One cheap and cheerful option for giving the system a quick once over, and another more in depth service that costs more.
There's also the option of paying a monthly fee to spread the cost of things, which a lot of people have with their boilers. I'd probably quite happily pay £15/month to cover a service plus call out for emergency works.
My heatpump had its first service this year, it's a Stiebel Eltron system and the service was carried out by the people who installed it. The cost was £180 which seemed reasonable compared to the average around £200 I saw online. Since it was a new system there weren't any problems but a couple of adjustments were made to improve efficiency, so it was mainly for peace of mind and to keep the 7 year warranty active. Value for money is subjective and I tend to view it in a similar manner to insurance: something that is quite expensive and would be inconvenient if it broke and I couldn't afford to fix it is worth insuring, while something cheap and easy to replace is not.
A clean fan makes less noise, but all the cleaning you can do yourself
I'm a plumber/electrician and used to have the G3 unvented qualification , this is required to install and service cylinders and requires re taking at 5yr intervals at a £230+ vat cost + lost income doing it. It should apply to gas , direct electric and heatpump cylinders. As with everything these days its cost of training, insurance and competent scheme membership. But having accountability for the safety from legionella and correct installation is important. I have my oldest cylinder in service now for 20yrs so l have one in my own home. I can shower in a power cut and dump surplus PV into it as a 10 Kwh battery with the added benefit of duel heat sources for reliability combined with a good flow rate.
Very interesting. Our new Aira heatpump has 15 year guarantee with no service requirements. I double checked this several times. I guess they believe there's no health and safety requirement and will just fix as and when needed. It's a few hundred pounds saving over other installers but time will tell if it's a sensible approach.
£225 * 15 years is over £3k - that's enough to buy a new heat pump!
That is amazing , & their website says that is still the case. That moves them up my installer list. .. I Guess a HP is combo of a fridge, an inverter & a computer.. none of which have service items
@@brackcycle9056 We had a few issues early on that needed some aftercare support. 2 extra days work for them upgrading some extra existing pipes, with no hesitation or quibbling. There aftercare has been spot on. Best looking external heat pump IMO and 12 months interest free too.
Did you go with them directly or through another installer? Did you get a few different quotes? If so, how did they compare? Thank you.
@@yahyad25 I went direct. Aira build and install there own heat pumps. No subcontractors to be seen. I did initially go with octopus. That was supposed to be £1.5k cheaper, but they deemed my heat loss to high and refunded my deposit. Aira also disagreed with Octopus's heat loss estimate and my own heat loss calculation was much lower too. Aira were second cheapest after other rough quotes from Heat Geek, EDF's partner CB Heating. Aira Cost me £6100 for a 8kW system with 5 radiator changes.
Did you advise the engineer that it would be advisory to invest in a trolley for occasions where he can’t park near a property.
I didn't... but a good idea! He wasn't too upset!
Going back to basics, my old gas boiler alone attracts an annual charge of £100 to do sweet FA. It's 18 years old and, unlike modern Combi and other condensing boilers there's not much to do other than a draw test and vacuuming any dust out. They used to dismantle the burner assembly and pilot light and blow away debris but they don't do that now until such time that the burners would not light up and so a specific visit had to be made to rectify that. It's a racket, I tell you. They play on one's fears tbh.
Hi Nick - sorry I missed this comment a few weeks back - I think you are right, a cost for 'piece of mind' but not much else!
That is good to know. Sounds like they did a good job. Hopefully prices will come down as more people have heat pumps and the service interval will increase.
Can you get a cheaper engineer not from Vaillant to do it. Would that effect the warranty?
A suitably competent engineer with relevant valid certification can service your Vaillant ASHP without affecting the warranty, as stated in their terms and conditions.
@@danielbarton1694 I wonder what that would cost?
One thing I might query would be need to check refrigerant level @ 4:45, direct testing would involve some slight leakage of refrigerant I would have thought. I assume (a dangerous word) that the HP would monitor and report any loss of refrigerant pressure over time as a fault, at which point a check and top up might be required.
Hi Dougaldog - I thought he was using this kind of kit to check around the compressor - derbyshire-refrigeration.co.uk/products/hvac-tools-refrigeration-tools/leak-detection-equipment/electronic-leak-detection/?srsltid=AfmBOoo1kgF_MzIgIMI6FkNlacr-WhfqdYIt78isyzeHbQrzaprejtYT
I guess that would sniff any evidence of leak....?
But I may have misunderstood!
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle
Thank you for your reply Tom.
That would certainly make more sense rather than directly checking refrigerant pressure. But similarly if it had been leaking any detectable amount I would think the system itself would be flagging up a fault.
Doing my sums, my Daikin is available for @ £2900 before VAT, or about 14.5 services, makes one wonder about any real added value these give.
I'll be in a similar situation in February next year when 1st is due. The devil in me wonders if it would be worth forsaking the warranty and just paying for any repairs as required. Barring the refrigerant circuit I could likely sort any other bits.
Pay £9 a month for Octopus Service on Daikin Heat Pump …. Covers service but not all parts if any issues , had 2 services next one due Jan 2025
Very interesting
Tricky one this. And it’s part of my delay on the heat pump. A requirement to service but no local technicians.
Have you tried the vaillant website?
We're paying around £200 pa for an oil boiler service which includes bits and pieces that just need replacing (filters etc.) so £225 is not that much more, but that includes some of the safety issues as well. The thing is what of that could you do yourself to make sure it stays working like checking the efficiency etc.?
🤣 i charge £95 plus 10 parts. Damn im too cheap
Get the glycol out and fit anti freeze valves by the ODU. Glycol has less heat capacity so less efficient 👌
Check yourself next time. Faster cheaper.👍🌹
Yeah true - although would not maintain a warranty….
I’d have thought a replacement of the bearings and a clean of the HX would have been part of a service. But then again I know nothing about this stuff!
For reference, Baxi charge £109 for a gas boiler service. Like you say, unless you are a qualified person, you won't know what to look for, best get someone who is to check it every year.
The advertised savings by going to a heat pump from gas could be wiped out if that price goes up, waiting for my quote for install, after this video will have to look closer at the costings as pay £75 for my gas boiler service each year just to keep the warranty active
You get a ASHP for the carbon benefits typically
Interesting not really talked about on YT. We have had ours 2 years and I have yet to get a service. The cylinder is only an explosion risk with the immersion as the heatpump can't boil water. So with this disconnected it feels less essential. Annual feels a bit arbitrary. I think 18months and doing your own checks for leaks and debris in the air intake is probably OK. 50% saving. It also depends if you are periodically checking efficency and consumption which may well highlight an issue if they change unusually.
It needs to be years to keep your warranty.
@mackay250 fair point.
don't forget the expansion vessel/airbuble
do you use the immersion then, as opposed to the HP? If so, why?
@MikeGleesonazelectrics no we never use the immersion. The heatpump can only get the tank to 70degrees so is self limiting from a saftey stand point. A faulty immersion thermostat could heat the water beyond boiling and result in an explosion theoretically. But there are pressure relief valves that would have to also fail so a pretty low risk.
Arguably the price will decrease as these things become more and more abundant and the skills are developed in the industry.
Yep, fair point!
If you think that then you are living in dreamland. This is a great way to keep the service price high as it’s an overcomplicated system and not many trained professionals that actually understand the basics!! You have the job of an air conditioning expert and heating engineer combined! And going to make you pay through the nose for it!!!
I'm dubious about the annual boiler / heat pump service. Seems to me like an easy cashflow stream for those offering the services.
I'm in the process of working out how to replace our 20 something year old combi boiler (pre condensing) when it finally expires and the complexities of replacing a combi boiler with a heat pump, hot water tank and replumbing the radiators with are on 8mm copper microbore from a 22mm manifold. The house is an 1870's terrace with solid two leaf brick walls and is partially internally insulated which has been added as we have done renovation work.
The thing with the boiler is, we do not have it annually serviced. In it's life it has had one diverter valve, one heat exchanger and one external fill loop. It is a Vaillant. We are so far about the price of a replacement boiler to the good.
I think that I would go for a Vaillant heat pump but I am more likely to service it once every 3 years and just remove the covers myself and vacuum out any debris each September. Naturally I would have any "free" services just for warranty purposes. I might just video them though.
Thanks for engaging with the video Michael - I completely understanding about the cashflow stream. Frustrating!
Sounds like a good plan your end, possibly a bit of work to do to facilitate a heat pump transition, as you identify, but particularly moving from a non-condensing boiler to a heat pump should see some significant reduction in costs / emissions
I agree with the last comment - it’s a fridge (but with a large fan motor)….. there is NOTHING TO SERVICE ….. the pcbs either function or not and there is nothing to test. What you paid is a rip off …. BUT some decades ago so was a gas boiler service which has now reduced to a level of paying same money as you did but for an annual maintenance contract that includes the replacement of any faulty parts and includes multiple call outs if required in the contract period ….. Heat pump service pricing will go the same way once the industry and insurers like Domestic & General get their head around that these are FRIDGES !!
Fair point Joe - thanks for commenting. It does feel like Vaillant can charge a fortune because there is a lack of understanding about heat pumps, and therefore a lack of service engineers... but I agree costs may well come down in the future.
As some people have said/asked....does no service invalidated any warranties?
Absolutely
seems like the warranty service did nothing,did the £225 service include parts req
Hi Dave, the system did not require any replacement, except for slight refill with glycol, and yes that was included. If there was any other work, I think that would not be not be included in the price of the service
Tom
Tom - what was it that made you believe the technician measured refrigeration pressures?
Hi Norman - not necessarily pressures, but he did use a bit of kit that appeared to be detecting leaked or leaking refrigerant - it was something like this - derbyshire-refrigeration.co.uk/products/hvac-tools-refrigeration-tools/leak-detection-equipment/electronic-leak-detection/?srsltid=AfmBOoo1HLS7Dqt0mDvlD-U9ozIWk1Y6-nwtZ_d1ozZCP9L0L8Db0Pdi
Tom
Mmmm - you would only use them if you suspected a leak after evidence of under performance. I think the technician was rather keener to impress than to establish the presence of a leak.
My service engineer said the only way to accurately check the refrig loss was to remove and weigh the vessel.. a very expensive job, not done with the annual service!
Your webcam could do with a service too -- i.e. cleaned..! As to the cost - I can tell it hurt by the number of times you repeat it - perhaps it is easier to rationalise if you see it like having your car serviced. Compared with the cost of the installation it does not seem unreasonable if you budget for it over each year.
Once you get an EV, annual car servicing seems equally pointless.
Is the warranty voided without having a yearly service.... It does seem like its an excessive expense... Every year! Maybe every 3 years would be more practical
That is my understanding, but I also don't have much confidence in claiming through the warranty if I needed to.
I agree it feels excessive!
Tom
Insurance is all about pease of mind ,but I think the cost of the service is extortionate and could be mitigated. After all it’s not going to kill you. But as I said, pease of mind.
you can expect costs about that all the time from the official lists, next time try the heat geek list as well in your area, the life should be good for 8 years most of the time, typical failures are normally compressor, fan , general corrosion, (something that will see more in the uk due to moisture in air, other things like sinkagae of pump on service can also happen over time, requiring straighten, but that's normally on heaver units, as well as the refrigerant causing significant ice build up more than normal in cold conditions, an easy identifier is a cooler than normal and higher energy basis, keep the regular maintained , even dirt and leaf build up can cause issues, keeping the coil from defrosting which leads to rust / pin hole corrosion. my experince was a lot worse thank yours due to poor install and lack of 2nd company support, in the end mitsubishi sent someone they recommended with a local rep to evaluate they found a tonn wrong that would have cost thousands to fix, so the main property reverted to propaine, the annax however still uses a split air to air 16kwh with zero problems, so far all they have found is the usual leaf buld up, and capacitor issue that was causing it not to turn on when called this was a factory issue so was changed under warranty. but a re-gas is needed every 12-18 months for ref
I guess what you're paying for is reassurance that it's less likely to fail in the middle of a cold period.
Yes, very true!
Having watched it could you do the servicing side of it your self ? . You need a qualification to repair the f-gas circuit, but not clean the fins. . Afterall we are used to servicing cars our selves.. Can cleaning filters & fins really be more difficult that oil changing or changing a brake cylinder. Octopus (£9/month plan) is cheapest, but it needs to be their install.. £225 ( pay in advance rather than invoice afterwards !) is one whole days pay if you are on £50k/year. Regarding the Non-vented tank , you need a G3 qualification to service it as a plumper , it is a one day course £150, so would soon pay for its self.
Gas boiler cost about £900 average and costs £75 ish to serve.
Ashp cost £3000 average and costs £200 ish to service. You dont buy a Ferrari and take it to ford garage for cheap service . Annul service if done correctly maintains the efficiency
Fair point Gareth
Have to say your Heat Pump clearances don't look great to me, should have 500mm of the right hand side.
Surprised the engineer did not flag this, as Vaillant are very anal where we are in the south.
When I do a service, I'm more interested with the electrics, how the compressor is running, how much current is it drawing. (the electrics can be just as bad as some plumbing) of an install.
We don't check the refrigerant as it is a sealed circuit, its also propane R290, this in theory should never leak. (you don't regas/check you refrigerant in your fridge at home every year.)
I am qualified F Gas engineer, we only start messing around with the refrigerant circuit if the system is have errors and pointing to that being the issue.
Its better to install the particle filter inside and this makes it easier for maintenance.
Thanks Ken, some helpful points there. Yes I think that it was installed too close on the right hand side, the service engineer did not mention this, but I had picked this up previously, and fairly disappointed that our installer did this. It does not seem to be causing too much of a problem
Thanks for the helpful context more broadly. All the best
Tom
Vaillant terms and conditions state “If the heat pump has not been serviced annually the heat pump guarantee will become invalid”
Engineer or Technician? As a CEng yourself do you ever question how much studying and effort it’s taken to get to where you are? Value for money - no. It’s called being fleeced on the premise of retaining your warranty.
Bought a new house and got someone in to service the heat pumps - absolute and total rip off. Took them much less time than servicing my old gas boiler and charged 4x the price.
Sorry to hear that Jamie - would you recommend not worth it for others?
@ just be careful I would say. I won’t be having an annual service now on
£225.00 for 90 minutes, is that plus vat ? Any way the guy has to be trained that costs money, his van has to be paid forms well as his fuel, insurance and traveling time. His tools and business insurance then holidays and pension, national insurance stamp incidentals in this case a small amount of glycol (that ain't cheap) so what you break it down it isn't very much and as I said to one customer who asked about price increase when hovering out their boiler I explained the cost of electricity has gone up 😉😂😂😂
Next year it will be £325
Could be! And next year the concentration of CO2 will also have risen!
Yes but not because of UK's contribution but America, Asia etc. We buy all our stuff from China don't forget.
Tom, you need a better camera, or maybe just better lighting! I think a phone would be better than that webcam...
Great info though, thanks
You are not the 1st to suggest that...! I am recording on my phone but had my screen replaced recently at an independent phone repair guy - learnt my lesson, lots of issues with it - including quality of camera.... I'll do my best to improve!
Tom
@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle sorry, pixel a series recommended as cheap but great camera
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Get a Fairphpone, then you can replace it all yourself!!!
Sorry mate but £225 for a wash and brush up!! And check round. That’s only going to get dearer . Still not looking like a good deal. It’s just wiped out your savings for a year. I have had 2 gree outdoor units for 8 years and never serviced them. Engineer said to call him if they ever break. my gas boiler service is £50, cleans out the trap and checks the emissions. Running at 96% efficiency. Have you worked out the energy/cost used when it cycles to thaw out the radiator?
Heat pumps are a waste of money and running costs are too high. As for a service my gas boiler service is £70 which ensures my Worcester Bosch guarantee remains valid. WB guarantee is for 10 years.
Thanks for engaging with the video and your helpful comment.
I did a video on heat pump finances Are heat pumps a good investment? The answer might surprise you
ua-cam.com/video/hYcW65Oz3qI/v-deo.html
Unfortunately gas boilers are poisoning our air and contributing to climate change. So they aren’t an option anymore… sorry!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestylemeanwhile in China coal fired stations. In India coal fired power stations and diesel power stations.
The stupid thing we do is use gas to generate considerable amounts of electricity and have a very much over powered heat pump for a minimal times when we have severe cold. It would be far better to use gas when the temperature is very cold or when we need to heat water and use a much smaller heat pump to run when the outside temperature is higher or even an air to air heat pumps.
It’s daft to create massive amounts of demand in the winter when we be mostly reliant on wind and nuclear from a low emissions perspective and therefore have to have massive amounts of under used gas power stations backups.
I’m not anti heat pumps but there is no simple swap out because they are not a replacement for boilers if you take into account the entirety of the generation. We are looking at a huge increase in cost for us while most other countries are still continuing generating vast amounts of co2. we produce less that 1% of the worlds emissions.
JUST SAY NO to heat pumps.
Why is that John?
I bet you have one in your kitchen already… a fridge is a heat pump!
Just so you know, clean it yourself nothing else is needed to the ashp. Inside g3 checks yes but thats the most exp cleaner you will have
Fair point, but hopefully would mean the unit has a warranty longer term, so maybe not that expensive?!