Pastor Explores RACE in LDS History with Conlon Bonner
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- How do we understand the racial history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Conlon Bonner helps Pastor Jeff understand.
Here is the current view position of the LDS church on blacks and the priesthood: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/s...
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Special thanks to Conlon Bonner for joining me on the podcast!
IG: @conlon_bonner
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are Mormons Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
If you enjoyed this video, you might enjoy a similar video I made touring a Latter-day Saint Temple for the first time: • Pastor's FIRST TIME In...
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Meet Conlon Bonner
00:01:33 - Bonner Family and Church Music
00:15:07 - Facing Tragedy
00:21:00 - Racial History of LDS Church
#LatterDaySaints #LDS #race - Розваги
So grateful for Conlon's voice on the topic of race in the LDS church. What did you learn? What questions do you still have?
This is great! Next have Brothaz in the Foyer come on your show and have a talk with them. They come from several african-american backgrounds in the Church. I’d love to have you bring on a black pastor to talk with a black latter-day saint
12:40 rock of ages is actually a hymn in our hymnal. It’s hymn number 111.
14:01 we sing father abraham at Girl’s camp though! 😂 good memories
34:05 one thing that is important for members of the church and those outside of the church to remember, is that doctrine is what is taught by all 15 brethren consistently. And so if a teaching is had by one or a few apostles, but is not a consistent teaching, we cannot count it as doctrine, but would rather be as speculation. And part of the reason for that is because the Lord might reveal something to someone that they don’t fully understand and so then they tell that idea to the public and the public may have a different picture than what the Lord actually showed to the person. It all kind of confusion, which is why we all need to come to the Lord individually to solve a lot of these questions. We can come to the throne of grace and receive answers by the Holy Spirit.
@@zionmama150 yes I agree!
I learned an extremely important lesson arising from the June 9, 1978 announcement. I’ll never forget exactly where I was when the announcement was made. I was 12 years old and was with my mom in her white, 1977 Chevrolet Caprice Classic, tooling along I-215 towards Foothill Blvd. in Salt Lake City when the announcement came over the radio.
My mom immediately burst into tears, she was so overjoyed. My response, on the other hand, was, “Wait. There was a ban?”
But here’s where the story gets interesting. About 3 years later, I was 15 and a sophomore in high school, and was taking singing lessons from our school choir teacher. After the lesson had ended one day, we got to talking and he shared that he had left the Church. I asked him why. He said he had some quibbles with a few things, then added, “But when they gave the blacks the Priesthood, that was it! I was done!”
I was stunned. I could not understand how two adults of roughly the same age could have had such diametrically opposed reactions to what I had presumed was universally good news. It was as if he was suggesting that it was the Church’s fault he’d left-that he was essentially pushed out. I could not make it make sense.
Years later I learned that this same choir teacher had come out to his then students as gay and shared about his long-term relationship. I came to believe that it was unlikely that he had actually left the Church due to the 1978 announcement. (I certainly can’t imagine him giving that reason later on in his life.) Rather, I suspect he used what he considered to be a controversial issue as his “stated reason” for leaving the Church when the reality was elsewhere.
Since then, whenever I hear of someone leaving the Church over a so-called controversial issue, I can’t help but wonder if, perhaps, that is the reason they’ve latched onto to justify and explain their decision-to suggest that it is the Church’s fault they’re leaving-but that the true reason remains undisclosed.
Almost 55 years old and never thought of it quite that way, but makes absolute sense! Thanks for sharing
One experience I've had being a black member of the Church that has concerned me is some members are still misinformed about things concerning race and the priesthood, like was shared in the video, for example, some members still believe in a “curse of cain”.
Also it's annoying and saddening when members say things like “it doesn't matter because the blacks got the priesthood anyway in the end”.
What I do appreciate are conversations like these, which I've had in my amazing Institute class. When members do this it helps inform others of the truth and ultimately helps us bring us closer to Christ.
McConkie admitted he wrong about his prior speculations in 1978. People need to get with the program. Too many would rather accept what he wrote before becoming an apostle and ignore what he said afterwards.
I agree it feels racist to reduce somebody’s feelings by saying “it doesn’t matter,” but in the eternal perspective what does matter if everyone gets equal opportunity for eternal life? I think it’s interesting and depressing that President McKay prayed about it, but did not feel inspired to lift the ban. Something like “black people are ready for the priesthood, but the priesthood is not ready for black people.” It seems very strange to have permitted the members some racism because they weren’t “ready,” but it appears that is what happened. It makes me wonder how many other things are withheld from us as a church because of the members’ ignorance and prejudices. Like would Heavenly Father be open to giving women the Priesthood in this life but withholds because “the priesthood isn’t ready for it?” Obviously our doctrine teaches that women have equal dominion with men in eternal life, so the relevance of withholding the priesthood in this life seems minimal. Women aren’t limited in this life because they aren’t given the priesthood, so does it really matter that they are “banned?” I don’t know. Even with temple ordinances previously being restricted for black members, are those members actually restricted from these ordinances in eternity? Of course not. Sometimes I worry that my obtuse personality has turned people away from accepting the restored Gospel. Will God punish people who might have accepted the gospel if I hadn’t made a mistake and turned them off? I would sure hope not.
@natedawg2020 by the time Martin Luther King gave his "I have a Dream" speech, by King's own admission, the blacks were not truly free yet, and that was in the 1960s.
"22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant." (1 Corinthians 7:22)
A big problem with this is that "priesthoid" is treated as a position of authority the way the world sees authority but Jesus taught it as we are to be the servants of all, and the Word servant and slave in the Greek are the same.
In the earlier days of the church things were not so planned out. The way mission calls were imade were spontaneous and didn't regard a person's marital status or even if the wife was pregnant etc
@@BrianTerrill I don’t know what your point is
@@natedawg2020 probably because you live in 2024
Pastor Jeff is more than fair. He is Christian in the best way. Wonderful discussion.
So true. I wish we had this approach to all religions and faiths.
I love that we can find common ground and respect each other wherever we are.
Recommend the podcast “Church History Matters” multiple part series on the priesthood race issue. It’s very well done.
I was just about to post the same thing, then saw this post. Agreed!
Love that podcast! I'm good friends with Scott Woodward!
They do outstanding, impeccably academic work there
Love the Bonner family they are truly an inspiration. Greatest song. Child of God. Thank you for this interview.
I love this too. It brings tears to my eyes and my heart!
I was born and raised in the LDS church in the south and I knew every song Pastor Jeff brought up and love them. I love this conversation and connect with Conlon and relate to how he expresses his experiences .
The early Church had a problem with Gentiles until Peter's revelation. You can imagine how that revelation was received by many of the stricter Jewish-Christians. When black people began to embrace the restoration, the LDS Church likewise realized it was time to cast off old prejudices. Some members left the Church over the issue, but others were praying for the revelation to come.
Was there a lot who left because of the 1978 revelation? My family joined the church the year after, we still were told by some that blacks were not as valiant in the premortal life but not by people teaching Sunday school
By the way, by today's standards Jesus himself would be accused of racism, he referred to a gentile wo.an as a dog:
"21 ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." (MATTHEW 15:21-28)
@@BrianTerrillI’m sorry they were told that false information about not being valiant in the pre-existence. That’s not official core doctrine! We don’t teach or believe it today.
@@BrianTerrillYou’re taking that out of context
Have you ever heard of the story of Jesus and the woman at the well?
@@charlesprice242But it was clearly taught by the prophets of the LDS church. Are you saying you cannot trust your prophets?
@@Serve24 no I'm not taking that out of context and the story of Jesus and the Samaritan women is significantly different because the Samaritans were a mix of Israelite and Gentile blood while the Canaanites were not Israelite blood at all.
I grew up in Alliance and Evangelical church’s, and joined the Latter-Day Saint Faith when I was 23! This is a fun episode, because I remember all the children’s church (primary) and worship songs Pastor Jeff mentions! What fun!
Thank you Brother Bonner for your deep and powerful testimony. Your close relationship with the Savior is so inspiring! Sending the best to you and your wonderful family! 💗
I have absolutely loved this podcast. The two of you have demonstrated your faith and your love of music and your love of our Savior. Thank you both SO much!
Rock of Ages is in our hymnal. We don’t sing probably half the hymns in our own hymnal for some reason.
We do. Every Sunday there is always songs I've never heard. I've been a member for over 40 years.
That’s because a lot of the hymns in our hymn book aren’t very good/singable. They’re in the “sealed portion” of the hymn book, and for good reason.
Sometimes the person playing the piano dosent know the songs, and rather learn them, they are a creature of habit and play the same 20 songs on rotation because its comforting to them. Somethimes, certain hymns have been asked to not be played by the Bishop or Stake President for one reason or another.
My favorite "Sing With Me" sont was 🎼 Give said the little stream🎵 give Oh give , give Oh give🎶 my Dad (who did his young mission in Uruguay ,& his mission with Mom in Bolivia) used to sing it for us on the way to Grandma's house in Idaho. He'd sing in Spanish😂 what a fun memory 🙏❣️
Well said Pastor Jeff and Brother Bonner. Our daughter passed away after an accident 3 years ago. Our faith is what got us through. We could have been really upset with God, but we chose to let the Atonement of Jesus Christ heal us instead. It has only been 3 years since her death, but we can say the Lord has walked with us in our healing journey.
We share the message of the resurrection as often as we can. We share our testimony of the healing power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We know our daughter is alive in Christ and active, happy and healthy!! We look forward to the day when she is returned to our arms and we can continue taking her during the Millennium 😊
I’m old and grew up in Utah as a non LDS person. I had many LDS friends in the early 1970’s and we talked about the race and temple ban all the time. The response from most LDS folks was simply…It’s not up to us to change the ban, it’s up to God! (Pointing skyward). I was told it’s the Lord’s church so that answer made sense. Others did say the timing was not right as blacks were not ready for the priesthood keys. It would be like giving a 3 year old the keys to a car. Others said that the members were not ready to accept it.
Of course these were just my own experiences. Glad it changed in 1978. It was way past due in my opinion.
According to Edward Kimball, David McKay said the problem wasn't that Blacks were not ready for the Priesthood, the Priesthood (i.e. the members of the Church) were not ready for Blacks. Or something very simular. I don't remember the exact quote. Both McKay and Pres Kimball were clear that it was not a lack of worthiness or a lack of faith on the part of Black members preventing the change from happening earlier.
@@brettmajeske3525Let's be free The reason why they finally made the change or God had revelation was because the leaders of the church couldn't no longer justify keeping blacks from the priesthood other than being bigoted and racist... I remember pulling up a video where Barbara Walters asked Donny and Marie Osmond about blacks in a priesthood and why they can't have it, This was at the height of their popularity and their answers puzzled a lot of people and I'm pretty sure the church should notice this, The LDS church is very much aware of the image that they portray to the public, And if it's conducive for them to change policy they will.. kind of like how they were forced to change their policy on polygamy even though they said it was new revelation from God It wasn't It was that the government was coming after the church for practicing polygamy at the time That's why the LDS change that
If the church was truly inspired, the priesthood ban never would have been. Your opinion is the removal of the ban was late and mine is it never should have existed in the first place. Cognitive dissonance light
I guess.
@@ericreed4535 exactly
As an African American myself, I'm sorry but Collins view on race is one that's very distorted by his processity to whiteness, and more specifically this whiteness based LDS Church.... Yes there are African Americans that have found themselves bamboozoo by the niceness of LDS people, whoever church doctrine, and church history The one that's rooted in racism and bigotry in which the church have not apologized for you They just cast it aside as new revelation from God that made them change things....BULLSHIT.. But I could never be a part of the LDS church never and I will be hurt if any of my family member decided to join a church that open to 1978 view blacks as less than
Jeff and Conlon, Thank you for the conversation! Christ is the center of both of our religions. We need to enjoy having relationships with those who have common values, but maybe believe differently about specific doctrine. I believe Father in Heaven is pleased when He sees us working together for worthy causes, and showing a desire to help our fellow brothers and sisters, no matter there nationality, color, race, or religion. :-)
2 Nephi 26:33
And he invites ALL to come into him..
Black and White , Bond and Free , Male and Female..
The Lord does not discriminate .. He loves everyone exactly the Same♥️
Loved this podcast !!♥️
Conlon is awesome. Served around him on my mission and he has always been an incredible example and is a true follower of Christ
Jesus Loves Me and Father Abraham were both sung in LDS Primary when I was a child.
I learned the song Father Abraham from my LDS friend when we were teenagers.
I grew up Methodist and knew the Doxology song. We always sang it before they passed the collection plate. It is in the LDS Hymnal with the same words that you know, but the title is Praise God, From Whom All Blessings Flow, hymn #242.
What a faithful conversation. I loved how your testimonies were so complimentary of each other. Loved listening and hearing from Conlon- what a great guy who radiates light.
33:38 one thing that I think is helpful to point out is that the LDS church was not alone in speculating about some of these teachings of race in the 1800’s and 1900’s. In fact in a lot of cases some of these ideas were introduced to the LDS church by the culture from which all of these early LDS converts came from.
But the line was crossed when they said those teachings came from God.
My cousin sang in Gladys Knight's group "Saints Alive" and was introduced to her. It felt good she knew a bit about our family heritage, but mostly her message in her testimony was deep in my heart, "God knows each of us by name and we come to him individually, without prejudices and stains of this sinful world, but we help each other along the way.
I was so glad to hear Conlon’s response to a very typical comment you hear that Pastor Jeff made: “People who have an opinion take away from the voices of those who really should be talking about it”. Conlon’s perfect response was, “Every voice matters. There is value in hearing all perspectives. I hope there’s room for every voice to be heard.” Well said!
Thank you for this wonderful episode!!! So many beautiful messages were shared. Conlon is a force for good and he shared great information about Church policy of the past and how nothing is lost. The priesthood flows through him to future generations and past generations. I love that he is willing to be a strong voice and a kind voice on the topic of race. People of many nations, islands, globally and also here in the US can benefit from this discussion and also from his answers. I love how the word "harmony" was used. That is ultimately the goal if we want to return to heaven or live a heavenly existence here and now. Pastor Jeff, thank you for your love of Jesus Christ, for being willing to learn about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and as you said, not fully agreeing, but accepting us in our beliefs. Thank you for taking the time to read the Book of Mormon and also for forming relationships with members of our church. Best Wishes.
Love the Bonner Family! ❤
You mentioned one of my favorite mission songs "Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow." Not going to lie, it was my favorite because it was only one verse and 2 lines at that, and it was easy to sing in Chinese (learned the lyrics in the MTC). After 30+ years, I can still remember most of the words in Chinese.
This is probably one of the best of your podcasts that I have seen. Thank you for sharing this and doing this. We do need to have conversations with each other about things that we don’t understand about each other‘s position on religion and other topics. I like what Conlon said about what his sister said about agreeing to agree. we need to learn to be able to see things from another person’s position.
Thank you so much for this video. It's probably my favorite of all you have done. I don't live in Utah, so I'm not really familiar with the Bonner family, except for their music at the 2018 commemoration celebration of the Priesthood being given to all worthy men in the Church, particularly Black men. And the access to temple blessings that followed.
I appreciate Jeff acknowledging the issues with Jim Crow that happened in his church historically, which I didn't know. Same with Conlon being open about the Priesthood and temple blessings being denied to Black people in the Church.
He has come to the same conclusion I did. I know the power I've felt here. I don't understand why that policy happened, I only know that God has taught me to believe what I do. As you mentioned, there have been some ridiculously racist attempts to justify the pre-1978 policy (it was NOT doctrine).
I so loved Conlon's personal experiences with the Priesthood, especially as he talked about recieving it in the temple for his ancestors who have passed on.
Pastor Jeff I love how you bring the conversation to the table in a respectful way teaching the world that LDS and other denominations how you bridge that gap what our similarities are, of course our differences but a lot of things that you teach and you talk about there’s common ground. You shown there is no need for hate speech we can just have a normal conversation among friends. I really admire that about you I remember when I 1st saw your video I was like what is this are you going to bash the LDS church but that 1st indication I was hooked and a lot of members are hooked on your video’s you’ve done an amazing job. As an end game I don’t think your serious will never end the conversation will continue forever. Always new things to discuss and learning is a never ending process.
Beautiful story and testimony. Thanks for sharing.🔥 I love hearing real stories and each person’s journey. I love hearing it for members of the LDS Church but also members of other beliefs.
What a phenomenal video! So many truths were spoken and I felt the spirit so strongly! I believe that the Lord spoke through you both and this message needs to be heard everywhere!
Jeff, thank you for what you do!
I loved this so much!! So grateful for the Bonner Family - their talents & their testimonies of the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!! God loves all of His children. 2 Nephi 26:33 states that all are alike unto God.
Google Books: Curse of Ham, some different books come up. David M. Goldenberg is the author of a well researched book; and David M. Whitford is another that has much of the same content. The "curse" beliefs, came about long before the LDS Church came on the scene.
It was an old Protestant justification for slavery before either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were even born.
That honestly makes a lot of sense. When people change their lifestyle, they typically bring previous beliefs with them. I wonder how many of these ideas were brought over by converts who already had them.
@@oshawott4544 Many of them I believe.
Loved this! Rock of Ages in in the LDS hymnbook #111. Praise God, from whom all blessings flow #242. Also, Amazing Grace will be in the new hymnbook, among others. Can't wait to see what was added. Father Abraham is a song we sing at Girls Camp. Jesus Loves the little Children, a version (tune) of it is in the hymnbook #307.
Pastor, how do you believe the Book of Mormon originated? Have you read the historical record regarding its forthcoming? If you don’t believe it’s the word of God then you must have some other explanation. I’m interested to hear your explanation.
He will not explore that. It’s not his field and it’s not what he is interested in covering. He isn’t here to question or answer if the church is true or not. Or if he will join or not. That’s not even in the ballpark or thought range. He is just here to share and explore and understand different perspectives.
Excellent question. Jeff do you believe the BOM is God inspired?
Thank you for such an inspired and respectful dialogue. This is wonderful! Agree to agree!
Enjoyed this conversation so much! How wonderful there was no "pounce" on this often difficult topic! Humanity has been dealing with race matters forever it seems, and dialogues like this help move things forward, pleasing our Father.
Excellent episode! Conlon was on point. As a musician, I really appreciate hearing how music affects others the same way it does me in a religious/spiritual context. My most spiritual experiences have been through the Spirit communing with me through music.
Conlon answered the race/priesthood questions extremely well. Great back and forth between you both on that subject.
Jeff this may be your best episode yet. Bravo
Loved the conversation! Marvin Perkins gives an amazing message on Race and the Priesthood. You should have him on! Uses the Bible and Book of Mormon to discuss the topic in a thorough manner. Completely changed my perspective on the topic for the better.
I loved this one so much. Thank you both for the wonderful conversation.
Those miracles happen to everyone who seeks answers to their tough questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God is a God of miracles, and He gives them liberally, as needed, to the sincere and persistent and patient seekers.
I just listened to the Come Back podcast (LDS members who had left the church and returned). In this episode the host and guest spoke of the BYU Devotional address in 2019 by Lawrence E Corbridge titled “Stand Forever”. It was awesome. It spoke about focusing on answering the primary questions, and if you can, then the secondary questions either answer themselves or become irrelevant. If you spend all your time wading through the secondary questions (priesthood ban, methods of Book of Mormon translation, polygamy), you’ll never be satisfied because as soon as you answer one, another one pops up. The key primary questions are 1. Is there a Heavenly Father? 2. Is Jesus Christ the Son of God? 3. Was Joseph Smith a prophet of God? 4. Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the Kingdom or God on earth?
Listen to the talk, and comment your thoughts.
Thank you, Brother Bonner and Pastor Jeff! 🕊
Great conversation. Loved what Conlon said about proxy work.
Great conversation!
I love and respect you both. I appreciate hearing your perspectives and the friendship you have developed. Thank you for sharing
Pastor Jeff, thank you for taking on a topic that others might shy away from. Conlon was the perfect guest, and I was so impressed with his ability to articulate his feelings. It makes me want to share this with all that question how those of color may view the LDS church's history with race issues. Listening to Conlon was actually inspiring.
Rock of Ages is in the LDS hymmnal. 😊 My husband served a mission in South Africa and Botswana and it was one of the most popular hymns where he served!
While the Curse of Cain isn’t considered doctrine now, it was in the 1950s. When pressured about the priesthood bad the first presidency at the time responded:
“From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the N***** are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel.“(First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson,1947 July 17. Special Collections & Archives Merrill-Cazier Library Utah State University)
IT should be noted that personal correspondence is not a source for official doctrine. Most historians believe that letter was written by Joseph Anderson, the personal secretary of the Frist Presidency, as President George Albert Smith was hospitalized for most of the summer that year. While it certainly reflects the personal opinion of someone close to the Prophet, David O McKay would stated in 1955 that the ban was practice not doctrine, has he could not find any recorded revelation instituting it.
I also should note that while the Anderson/Lowery letter acknowledges that past Prophets had not questioned the restriction, neither does explicitly name the Curse of Cain as justification, remaining a bit ambiguous on that point.
I do appreciate you using the correct citation, as many people who quote that letter try to attribute it to being a formal proclamation.
Thank you so much for your perspective, Conlon. I am not of color but I remember first hearing about some of these things at a young age, Maybe 10ish, idk, and being upset. I remember asking my dad about it and him regurgitating some of the theories about why. It didn't make me feel better at all. It wasn't fair and it contradicted with other church teachings. I remember praying about it, concerned, and the impression I got was "it will be sorted" to be patient. It was strong enough that it satisfied me that things will be made right. I don't know why any of it happened the way it did. I'm so happy to see the progress that has been made thus far, and I look to the future with hope and confidence that those things will become clearer. I really appreciate your analogy of a puzzle. That's exactly how it is. There are pieces that I have such a strong testimony of and there are some that I'm waiting for them to become clear. One thing is clear, Christ and God's love for ALL his children. I make a point to operate and see others through that love.
Thank you Conlon. I really appreciate your perspective and the work you are doing. It’s really important. Oneness as instructed by Christ is vital. It has been on my heart lately. I am also grateful to hear your words as a mother whom God sent one son of African descent.
I love that you interviewed Conlon Bonner! He and his family is amazing and lovely!
Little correction over the "curse of Cain", it was a teaching which originated in the late 1700's, and got popularized in the mid 1800's. Many converts brought this teaching when coverted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The teaching got popular because of the increasing conflict between pro-slavery and black emancipation movements.
One of the most striking eschatological images employed in the Qur'an is that of the black faces of sinners in Hell and, conversely, the white faces of the inhabitants of Paradise: "On that day when faces will be white or black"
The Qur’an, also speaks of the day of judgment as “the day when some faces will be white and some faces will be black” (3:106). This could be taken as a reference to purity and righteousness on the one hand and impurity and wickedness on the other, or to salvation and damnation, but certainly not to race, since Islam has always been reasonably color-blind. Modern Arabic still uses the idiom sawwada wajhuhu to describe the act of discrediting, dishonoring, or disgracing a person, but its literal meaning is “to blacken the face” of someone.
The curse was not a darkness of skin it was to be
“cut off from the presence of the Lord.”
Considering that most believers of the Qur’an are NOT white, this is very very profound and shows us it is not about literal skin
Great interview. Conlon did a great job explaining himself and that is possibly all that can be said, I just wish some harder questions can me asked sometimes even if its not intended to defeat the other.
I really liked the book Last Laborers as a meditation on race and the priesthood. The author (who is black) points out that the no one deserves the priesthood. It is the Lord's to distribute as He wills.
Beautiful, beautiful interview! Thank you, both!
Such a great conversation! I HIGHLY recommend listening to the podcast “Church History Matters” where they dive into this topic in great detail. It is highly educational.
Thanks Jeff! I enjoyed this upload. :>)
Great video really enjoyed the perspectives to find gentleman talking about a lot of interesting subjects you guys are both awesome
If you want to learn a lot more about the church policy on the blacks, listen to the podcast "Church History Matters" and look up episodes on race in the church. There are 6 or 7 episodes. They give a very thorough background information that helps understand this whole issue. Joseph Smith gave blacks the priesthood and didn't hold back on blessings for them. The church was unfolding and the culture at the time of Brigham Young was very different than today. Prophets aren't perfect, they aren't infallible. Very good podcast today. 😊
I've taken some flack and been accused of making things up by pointing to Moses 7:22 which states
"22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them."
And Abraham 1:26 which reads
"26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood."
While it is trendy to throw Brigham under the bus, the fact is that at least as a matter of doctrine this existed with Joseph Smith. In practice it does appear that Brigham was first to enforce the restriction.
I think the phrase “the blacks” is a bit dehumanizing.
@BrianTerrill The interpretation of "black" in these contexts refers to spiritual purity, not skin color or race. The concept of race language as we understand it today was not present in ancient cultures, and the scriptures likely reflect a different symbolism.
@@jjd-6358 unfortunately that's not how anyone in the mid 1840s would have read that.
@@BrianTerrill Nor should it be read that way now. Including the Bible all scripture tells us the mark of Cain was a fact of biology to differentiate on sight, Cain's seed from Adam's. There is zero racism to it in the 1840's or now. :>)
Love hearing your testimony.
Yes, we have Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow in the LDS hymnbook with those words. And Father Abraham was sung at many an LDS girls camp!
Loved this interview!
I would love to see the Bonners perform!
Again because my ancestry includes Elijah Able i would have been included in the Priesthood ban. I just wonder how many of those who created the policy that the policy would have affected them also. Especially with the genealogy work that has been done today, and closely we are related
Conlon is amazing! What an amazing example of Jesus Christ!
Thank you for this dialogue
There is nothing that causes me to become as emotionally spiritually touched as this subject, I view this as a loving God and his precious plan, loving us all based on love, nothing but love and honor for those accept the gospel with the puzzle pieces on the side for a later day when all the pieces make sense.
I was 26 when I met the LDS Missionaries. So for 26 years I was denied all the blessings of God relative to membership in his Church. Granted my life wasn't an official denial by the Church due to who I was. But on the other hand, it was a complete dismissal, including being born into a non religious family. It was like God said, meh, put him over there and leave him in the dark for 26 years. In reflection, it was wise of God because it taught me the difference between light and dark, between the truth and deceit, between the world and salvation. But mostly it taught me the difference between life in myself or in my life as opposed to true life in the living God. As a convert, I can say that people born into an LDS family and the Church, and those who have any degree of personal association such as blacks who were denied the Priesthood, don't know how good they have it or how blessed they are. People need to let go of their grievances, and like President Nelson counseled, "let God prevail". It really is the best counsel.
Rock of Ages is in the LDS hymnal and it's awesome!
Wonderful discussion. The priesthood ban was and continues to be troubling but the Spirit can still penetrate one’s heart and if not bring total understanding it can speak peace. I think having epistemic humility and waiting on the Lord for answers that may not come in this lifetime is crucial.
Fantastic, just fantastic... Love it.
Thank you Conlon, I loved your analogy of the puzzle, and your faith!
Rock of Ages is in LDS Hymnbook, and Father Abraham is sung in some primaries
42:18 I’ve had two conversations in the past week saying, “you want to know where to invest $2,000 right now?”
The timing of certain ads is pretty good. Speaking of ads, this video had quite a few.
Great convo.
There's precedent in the Bible for God restricting the priesthood - the tribe of Levi had it exclusively, and the other tribes couldn't use or hold the priesthood.
And since then Jesus came to Earth and fulfilled all duties of both priest and King and is now God's final word. Jesus respects all women as equals. Ephesians calls us to submit to one another, as co-heirs of Jesus' kingdom. Peter's epistle addresses all believers as saints and priests. The point is clear. There are no restrictions from God's point of view.
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328of course there are restrictions, but they shouldn't be viewed as restrictions. We all have important roles to play from being a prophet to being a missionary, to conducting music during meetings. Women have the gift of carrying children and giving birth, whilst men can perform priesthood ordinances. Of course men and women have many other gifts, which they can share, or compliment to each other. However, there are some specific rules designated, because God's house is a house of order, and he gives us information and responsibility line upon line, precept upon precept. The trap to avoid is coveting the responsibilities of another.
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328the priesthood was also restricted to men only in the New Testament, as well as the apostleship and bishops. It's helpful for me to know God gives us roles to fulfill, men can hold the priesthood and women can bear children. Each is important and vital and complementary just as Adam and Eve complemented each other but they were still a bit different.
@@cameronreed1411 I would contend that Jesus changed everything. He had women as his followers and supporters who probably did not bear children. He also trusted them as the first to share the Good News of His resurrection. Paul built the church in Philippi with Lydia and the women who met to pray at the river. And he also wrote that there is no longer male/female, Jew/Greek, and describes the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit where none are gender exclusive. Then Peter writes to the church at Philippi and calls them all Saints and Priests. Considering some women cannot have children and some men are equally ill-equipped to be priests or apostles I'll stick with the experience that the Bible gives us in the New Testament (and Old, if we consider Deborah the Judge), that we are all new creatures in Christ, bestowed with a variety of spiritual gifts, not limited by gender, the whole purpose of which is to bring God glory, not to prove ourselves worthy or able in ourselves of anything.
@@quernalt I don't think you read a thing I wrote, but instead just repeat the beliefs of male teachings in your church, rather than the truth of God's word in the Bible. Women are not just wanna be baby makers and men are not just wanna be priests. That is such a ridiculous tradition of roleplaying that completely ignores the gifts of the Holy Spirit, to the demise of building Jesus' church, which when He founded it said that the gates of hell would not prevail upon it. Read the NT carefully, you'll see that men and women are no longer role playing along strict lines. There is no longer male and female, gifts are not gender distributed. Take a close look at what you believe compared to what is taught in the freeing work of Jesus and the apostles as the church begins in Acts. If you want to worship your church that is your choice, but it is not in line with Biblical teachings.
That’s a lesson that can be applied to lots of topics that a person can struggle to understand. What a great guy.
There were plenty of the hymns and songs you mentioned that I as a lifelong member of the church know.
My mother was raised in and out of Methodist churches so maybe that’s why I know them…. But a couple of the hymns he didn’t know are in our hymnal. 😆
Completely off-topic....I see that you are using the RodeCaster Pro II for your podcast, which is an excellent choice! Would you also recommend it for voiceovers and voice acting? On-topic....I know many of the Bonners personally and love them much! Their collective and individual testimonies, whether through their gift of music or spoken at the pulpit, have blessed my life tremendously! Thank you Jeff and Conlon for such a warm and insightful chat! May the Lord continue to bless you both! Jacosta
Pure testimony of someone's pure testimony, of Jesus Christ's love for God and to All His children, thank God for you and your family mostly the loving for Jesus Christ and His Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints 🙏 ❤️, thanks again, brethren for the interview,
Pastor Jeff thank you for being such an intellect as well as a heart for God.
You love the Word and bring it forth so clearly with direction of where to find the source in the Bible. I hope to be able to reference His Word as you do.
Conlon, you’re incredible.
We used "Father Abraham" as a warm up in the BYU marching band when I was in it.
30:55 wow I've been a member all my life and lived in Utah most of my growing up and i never heard that once
I've heard it before.
I appreciate this topic being talked about. I grew up being taught false traditions which I could not reconcile with God not being a respecter of persons, and being taught that God loved all His children. It took a very long time before I could even consider that church leaders could have been wrong about something. I put it on my shelf as something that I couldn’t understand, and I thought it wasn’t important for me to know. I now believe it is important to understand because I still believe, even more strongly now, that God is not a respecter of persons. No way did God take away the priesthood from men because of skin color.
Saludos a la Familia Bonner desde Lima Perú , bendiciones para todos
It was told us in the mission field in Ethiopia by Elder Sitati that it has something to do with slavery and the ownership of slaves that took away their agency and the complications of that situation. But it seems that it took a long time after for it to be corrected.
When it comes to the priesthood, I feel that there was a great deal of prejudice from outside the church pushing that opinion. It gave those who WANTED slavery yet another reason to hate the church.
And it was continued because it was easier to do so.
But the real reason is not known. So we just accept that it has changed now.
Good discussion. Conlon has a nice looking family. Sorry to hear the sad news of the death of a young son. His story reminds me of The Goodman Family... who lost three young children in a terrible car accident way back in December 1996. Of course, the LDS doctrine on eternal families brings comfort and peace for such situations. That is one of the attractive characteristics of the faith. Pastor Jeff seems to be helping the LDS faith in that regard.
As for Conlon's large family of gospel singers, I'm surprised he didn't bring up Gladys Knight. I'm assuming she's still LDS?
Conl.on represented the LDS Church very eloquently. Thank you
I am not a person of color and I will not pretend to know what that experience is like, especially within the context of the LDS church. I will not attempt to discount Conlon's lived experience. In fact, I love that this conversation is taking place and I am on board and agree with almost everything that he said on the topic. I am pretty content with the state of race within the church at this time.
I think the real issue here for me is that there is sort of an attitude of "well we're not racist now so it doesn't matter that we used to be" and I don't think that that is satisfactory for me. This is almost exclusively referred to as a priesthood ban, but please keep in mind that because of that ban, people with black skin were also denied saving ordinances within the temple. There are recorded instances where exceptions were made in early church history, but at least one of those was a woman who was sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant for all eternity (Jane Elizabeth Manning James). That sealing has never been reversed. The church may no longer preach these 'policies' but there has never been a time that the church has formally said that those teachings were wrong, just that they disavow them now. And that, I think, is a very important distinguishing feature when talking about race and the priesthood in the Mormon context. And while today it is easy to say that they were just policies and not doctrine, if you read writings from the prophets all the way up until 1978 these things were taught as if they were doctrine. The book called 'Mormon Doctrine', published in 1958 doubles down on the idea that people with black skin were less valiant in the pre-existence. It talks about the Mark of Cain. Brigham Young spoke across the pulpit very clearly stating that people with black skin simply would never hold the priesthood until everyone else in existence got it first. He was vehement about native Americans and people with black skin being less than white people, and even said things along the lines of slavery being a necessary tool.
I can understand the perspective that maybe he was just wrong about that. But I think for me the issue is: why is the second prophet of the restoration so wrong about what God wants his church to look like? And why were these false teachings perpetuated for most of the history of the church? For 130 years God's one true Church on the earth was wrong? Wrong about something as important as the eternal salvation of people because of the color of their skin? The current living prophets for half of their lives learned, believed, taught, and even wrote books about how black people would never receive the priesthood, and perpetuated these apparently false doctrines. So, for me, it isn't just about race, it isn't just about denying people rights. It's about the validity of the claims that prophets make when they claim to speak for God. How can I distinguish between truth and falsehoods when the people who claim to speak for God are wrong. How can I know that what they're teaching now won't be disavowed in 50 years? People have been excommunicated from the church for fighting against these so-called policies. They have had their blessings and covenants revoked for apparently preaching the truth before the prophets did. What does that mean exactly?
I think that if the church wants the world to take it seriously when it says that it is no longer racist, they should probably do something about the tremendous amount of super racist things they did in the past instead of just disavowing the doctrines that were taught by past prophets. Free Jane Elizabeth Manning James from her eternal bondage of servitude to Joseph Smith. I think that would be a good first step. Again, I'm happy that things aren't the way they used to be and I'm not discounting that things have changed. That's not the issue. It's that it is impossible for me to believe the things the prophets say when they have been apparently completely wrong about things in the past. And not small things
Excellent points. Your blinders are completely off. Welcome to reality. Jesus says he is the way, the truth and the life. Hebrews says that in these last days God has spoken thru His son (no longer prophets!), And since Jesus is the word of God we do well to just read the word and get to know and follow the Word.
“Free Jane Elizabeth Manning James from her eternal bondage of servitude to Joseph Smith?” That’s kind of a juvenile way to approach that sealing. She’s not Brittney Spears in a conservatorship, and she wasn’t appointed to be a slave. The sealing keys ratify all ordinances, not just marriage and sealing to children. She received her vicarious endowment after the priesthood ban. The church doesn’t unnecessarily undo sealings vicariously as if they presume the deceased are oxymoronically suffering in spirit paradise. Sealings to children only have symbolic relevance. Jane Manning James kept requesting to be vicariously sealed to Kwaku Walker Lewis, but she wasn’t even married to him. He asked her to be his polygamous wife, but she declined. Jane kept requesting sealing blessings, so Emma suggested she be sealed as a child to Joseph Smith, but the first presidency declined since she wasn’t their adopted child. They came up with this unique idea of sealing her as a servant. Jane didn’t like that and wanted to be sealed as a child. What’s the eternal consequence of all of this? Do you think God will eternally punish people like this because of bizarre circumstances? Clearly the church teaches that this will be sorted out in the Millenium. If the sealing might give her blessings then why undo it? Because you presume she suffers in paradise?
Not only is there no apology, but the current apologetic response to rewrite history claiming the ban was policy not doctrine is dishonest and insulting. I was 14 when the ban was lifted. My mother was shocked when I told her the curse of Cain had been disavowed. I had to show her the gospel topic essay on her church's website before she would believe it. She and many others raised on the teachings of the LDS church pre 1978 hold or held deeply racist beliefs. That needs to be honestly addressed, not swept under the rug with a feeble disavowal.
@@natedawg2020 the travesty is that sealing to human relationships is a thing of fixation at all! The Bible is clear that in Christ we are sealed to Jesus by the holy Spirit when we chose to follow him. The marriage supper of the lamb in heaven and who is going to be there should be our focus.
@@natedawg2020 So I think (and hope) that if we take a couple steps back and really examine what you're saying here, we might be able to come to an understanding.
First and foremost, I agree that this is not the same thing as Britney Spears wanting to have control over her own intellectual property. It is infinitely more important, because it is the eternal destiny of this woman of color, who was oppressed not only by her society but by the religion she loved. To compare the two is an insult to both Britney Spears and Jane Elizabeth Manning James. Because keep in mind that people were right to fight for Britney's rights to her own future.
After a lifetime of faithfulness to the church, and by every metric having dealt with far more persecution than almost all other members of the church, Jane Elizabeth Manning James petitioned to be an exception to the ban on black people from entering the temple, in no small part due to the fact that Joseph and Emma offered to adopt her and have a sealing of adoption take place so that her family could have the blessings of the sealing. According to the church's own website she misunderstood what the sealing meant at that time, and refused. So, later in life when she better understood what the ordinance actually meant, she petitioned to receive that very sealing that was offered her earlier and was denied. She was denied because of the color of her skin. And then, in a 'unique circumstance' she was offered to be sealed to Joseph, and this is the language of the actual ceremony:
"Do you wish to be attached as a Servitor for eternity to the prophet Josep[h] Smith and in this capacity be connected with his family and be obedient to him in all things in the Lord as a faithful Servitor?"
Now, I will agree with you that being a servitor is not the same thing as being a slave. But what it does mean is that, by definition, you are a person who serves or attends a social superior. So, true, she is not appointed to be a slave for eternity, just appointed to be a servant to her superior, Joseph Smith, for all eternity, and to be obedient to him in all things.
I suppose I struggle to see how that is not extremely problematic. Is Joseph Smith a superior to this woman? Is he superior because of the color of her skin? Does the fact that this sealing ceremony only existed for her because of the color of her skin indicate exactly that? And true, 130 years later she was able to vicariously receive her endowment. But as I stated in my previous post, why were all of these prophets wrong about this? Why was a special ceremony of the priesthood crafted specifically to bind this woman to Joseph Smith as an inferior servant? Is that from God? Were the prophets abusing their priesthood power? And I return your question back to you: What is the eternal significance of this?
The only thing juvenile here is acting like this isn't an atrocity that should be reversed (And it's not like we haven't reversed temple ceremonies that took place for and in behalf of Holocaust victims). And sure, we could just leave it alone and let it be sorted out in the millennium. But that begs the question: Why did we do it in the first place? What is the point of having the sealing power if it doesn't matter and it will all be sorted out in the next life? And doesn't this give us, as God's chosen people, a chance to show that we have overcome the barbarism of racism and undo something that shouldn't have been done in the first place? Doesn't this give us the opportunity to rise above the people that both sides of this argument condemn for being wrong and racist? If the goal truly is to weed out the perversions within the Gospel that the adversary has put in place, isn't this the perfect opportunity to do just that? Can't we give this woman the thing she always wanted? Can't we, for once, stand up and say we were wrong, apologize, and fix it?
So yes, I stand by my statement. Free Jane Elizabeth Manning James from her eternal bondage of servitude to Joseph Smith. Supposedly, we have the power to do it, and I believe it is wrong not to do so.
EDIT: as an addendum I'd like to say that in this life she was not happy with the sealing that took place, so why would I assume that she feels otherwise now? She stated in her own voice that this was not the sealing that she wanted and that it was unsatisfactory. So at the very least we could break the sealing that she didn't want in the first place
In regards to Brigham Young, I would like to point out that God was often Angry with Moses for his mistakes. Brigham will answer for his mistakes however the Lord will have him answer. Ours is to forgive. Brigham Young and Moses are definitely an apt comparison, considering the Migrations and wanderings they both led, as well as the settlement in a desert mountain valley with a fresh water body connected to extreme salt water body by a river . . .
No prophet was ever perfect. Only Christ is perfect.
The curse of cain being black skin was a protestant originating idea, Jeff.
@@HelloSaints Incorrect. The phrase “black skin” is not mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price. The Pearl of Great Price does not conflate the “mark of Cain” with the “curse of Cain,” nor does it explain the nature of the “mark of Cain.” Latter-Day Saints might have conflated skin color and curses on their own just like Catholics and Protestants did before them, but don’t pretend the Pearl of Great Price justifies racism.
@@natedawg2020 Right! The “mark” of Cain whose “countenance fell” and whose curse is more detailed in the Pearl of Great Price than in Genesis May have been conflated with the curse upon the people of CANAAN- (a similar name without any known direct connection to Cain himself) these people through their own wickedness were cursed with a “blackness came upon them”. This could be a spiritual blackness as much as some physical mark- we don’t know. To conflate the two and the color of skin of modern peoples is definitely a mistake and a false tradition that arose- and we all know what the BOM teaches about “false traditions of our/their fathers”!
To me the connection between Cain and the people of Canaan and the “blackness” that they were cursed with can be summed up in this verse of Moses 6:28
“28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have denied me, and have sought their own counsels IN THE DARK; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.”
They were cursed to both physical and spiritual darkness / blackness both in time and eternity.
Secret Combinations and murder were their passion as it became with the Lamanites.
25-28 min in: Amen, nothing has been lost after the fact, The Lord will lighten our burdens, The Lord will correct all wrongs, The Lord will wash away with water and burn away with fire our sins and all will be cleansed, even the mistakes of the leaders of His Church, and the mistakes of His people. Our lot is simply to do our best according to our understanding, and to align the desires of our Hearts with The Lords Desires. Thank God for the Atonement. Thank God for repentance. Thank God for Forgiveness. Thank God for His Work.
The Curse of Cain is an idea that was common in the wider Christian community in the US at the time of Brigham Young. Mostly as a justification for black enslavement.
I remember in my early upbringing in the Lutheran philosophy the Cain cursing was taught and excepted as real.
I learned Father Abraham at girls camp when I was a youth!
Doesn't get explained any better than that. He's got a perspective that I haven't heard explained, probably, ever. And the same is on both sides of the table and it probably can't be said any better than he did where it's: I dont understand the pieces of these puzzle. I don't know how or why it is, but I'm going to move forward.
He mentioned Elijah Abel. Joseph Smith's platform when he ran for President was ahead of Abraham Lincoln. Joseph Smith wanted the freedom of slaves and an end to slavery and is part of the reason Latter-day Saints of his time were persecuted was as a result of that. Christians were upset Joseph Smith would suggest such a thing and gave them one more reason to hate him. Now, you have Brigham Young who was walking right beside and at one point, Joseph's right hand man. Brigham saw what Joseph was doing and what he was teaching including the giving of the Priesthood to Elijah Abel. It's documented as being said by Brigham Young when blacks weren't permitted to hold the Priesthood, I don't recall the name of the individual Young was speaking to at the time where he said, in essence: "Fear not, for the day will come when all will hold the Priesthood." This was President Young reassuring that that time would come.
There have been those of color who have spoken with their experience, as members of the LDS faith who state: "It was the Latter-day Saints who offered the Priesthood to blacks and were among the first and to have black leaders lead white congratulations." Other churches could withhold the Priesthood because they didn't have a Priesthood to withhold from those of color. There was no Priesthood to limit. The interesting distinction is the Baptist faith where a Southern Baptist will openly admit why it's still TOO THIS DAY explain why it's still referred to as Southern Baptist.
I'll end it with this, with regards to his statement on the pieces of the puzzle. And it's this. Before the time of Moses and in the days of Abraham and up, there was a wide array of those who held the Priesthood. However, in the days of Moses (as the Bible teaches us) that Priesthood was restricted and held only by the Levites who were this the Priests in the tabernacle and the assortment of prophets. Elijah exercises the Priesthood accord to how God had dictated to him how we would do so, he performed miracles with that Priesthood we read through the book of Kings. Elijah held the preisthood keys and exercised them following his promise and miracle with the woman who fed him and found her son in a horrific situation, but not everyone could hold the Priesthood and not everyone was permitted in the Tabernacle or the temple either, God ONLY had worked with the Israelites, as the Bible explains to our understanding. We have learned that because man is foulable, the records they kept (as pure as God's word is) is still subject to their errors.
In the time of Jesus Christ himself, the lyrics of the song Jeff quoted that is taught to their youth group, Jesus (a GOD HIMSELF) withheld the gospel during his time on the earth, patterning how he worked in the Old Testament, it was still only to the Jews. The Roman soldiers were under grounding, it was like the underground railroad of Christianity, but it wasnt until Jesus was gone that the gospel was then permitted to be taken to the gentiles, and that includes Priesthood keys given to those not of the tribe of Levi. It's not an isolated incident, it's happened before. Brigham Young promised it would one day be available to all and the Apostles wrestled with it for years. President Hinckley was around and on the council of the Twelve, he taught the Plan of Salvation and emphasized the love of all people, but even during his time as a twelve, it was wrestled with. We think so much within the Church, and there were those in the Church who held on to old traditions or held the traditions of their fathers, but it could have been for reasons outside the Church. What we do know is, as Conlon said: Circumstances transpired we don't fully know and because we don't know speculation began to stir. It stirs now regarding abortion. The Church won't provide a definitive stance on when the spirit actually enters the body, we're only taught the Lord doesn't approve it and it's an abomination in God's sight, with the three exceptions. So we don't know and now speculation runs wild. We only know Brigham Young stated it would be withheld but with the promise that it would one day be returned and as Conlon stated: We don't know how the pieces fit, he just know we don't know that and keep going with what we do have.
HOWEVER, it's not a foreign concept as we learn from the Old and New Testament, again, that it was only the Jews for a LONG, LONG, LONG time and Jesus himself didn't authorize it until after the resurrection where he stated that the gospel would then be taken to the gentiles. It's all done in his time and in his way and Conlon explained it better than I've heard in a long time.
The shoe can be on the other foot. I wouldn't say the voice is muffled, because it isn't these days with social media and we're not our great grandfather, if they were even like that, because we're then being punished for the sins of others, not what we do today. George Floyd? We're learning more and more post trial "What's Happening to Minneapolis" is an excellent documentary to see where even officers of color who worked that beat with Derek Chavin stand Foursquare with him that Chauvin upheld his duty and George Floyd isn't the kind of "hero" they want evaluated to that level, that there are far better people who have done amazing and Honorable things to bring pride and honor to the black community. George Floyd was a criminal held up as a martyr or role model, when he was far from it and, again, officers of color within Minneapolis Police department knew Floyd and left the department in support of Chavin. ANYONE can be discriminated against or the likes, and it comes as the result of the sins of the fathers of others. Whites can be labeled as racist and all the fancy terms when they're just trying to live their lives and be punished for things they may have not done or their grandfather's weren't even a part of, but the decisions of others. Jeff mentioned the KKK, a Christian group. How is it to be judged today by that when he wasn't one? It happens to white people today too. They lose their jobs because their employers are stricken with and pressured with fear, the shoe is on the other foot today and those who are innocent do walk in fear. It's an unbalanced world, no matter how you look at it.
Again, Conlon is right and it's an amazing explanation: We don't fully understand but we recognize that God's at the head, he's the judge, and things will be worked out on an individual level and that makes and keeps it fair. Good job Conlon, you the man, brother