Support the channel with your Amazon purchase: www.amazon.com... Follow me on Instagram at guyinwy Exclusive content available at www.patreon.com/guyinwy
Wow! I'm wondering why on earth the previous rebuilder hone'd the crap out of those bores(?) I worked for a Ford/Ferguson dealer in Neffs, PA, back in the 70's. In my experience those liners are made to fit "TIGHT". When we installed 8n liners we had the parts-guy stop at the Lehigh Valley Dairy on his way to work that morning and buy a 25-pound box of dry ice. After a cold soak for about five minutes in the dry ice the liners would slide right in. Because the liners are so thin we found the best way to get them out was to use a fairly long and specially ground cold-chisel, which was ground smooth on one side. With the smooth side against the bore wall, you could "carefully" split the liner to get it out. We found the liners to be too thin and too soft to get them out with a puller because the puller-plate would sometimes slip past the end of the liner and wedge itself into the bore... and in the worst case crack the block. No sir... an 8n is not supposed to have slippy-slidey cylinder liners. Someone really screwed the pooch on that rebuild. I hope you can salvage that block.
As a machinist I can tell you that the block can be bored, an custom sleeves made fairly easily. Somebody oversized the sleeve bores in the last rebuild. Also, a narrow straight knurl near the lip may help hold the new ones in place. Also, just 8 No .com has all kind of cool parts including blocks, etc.
Thank you! The problem I’m running into is finding a local shop that is willing to do the work. The only place I’ve found so far won’t guarantee anything and wants a $2k deposit up front. I may end up having to travel a few hundred miles to find someone I can work with.
Locktite makes a great retaining compound. Those 8N's had either a .040 or a .090 dry liner, I always used the locktite retainer when putting new liners in.. A little note, if I had to guess by all the damage, this motor was an ether "addict". Hate that stuff. Used to tell my customers, 'if you find a can of starting fluid in my shop, I'll give you 20.00$. Never use ether, use WD-40 or a rag soaked in gas held next to the air intake will help start a low compression engine, just never use ether......
I figured cylinder sleeve right off the bat, but I do appreciate your courage in disassembling the engine that far yourself. I'm not sure I have the tools or the inclination to attempt that myself.
You're all kinds of high class. When I fixed the 8n I had, i blocked the transmission and engine, pulled the front axle off. Then slid the engine out from the transmission while still sitting on the blocks. Then I set the engine on it's side on the same block and tore it down. Put it back together. Stood back on the oil pan and slid it back together. But i was younger and stronger (dumber) at the time.
I disagree with you sir....the worst thing to find in your engine is a termite colony. I found that in a VW engine I was trying to rebuild. Their waist, cellulose and moisture seized and rotted everything in that engine. I had to pound it apart...The only things remotely salvageable were the con rods and crank....even the magnesium case had holes in it...ha,ha,ha My next worse was 5 gallons of water in the crankcase and trans of my 45 model A John Deere.......had to inventively pound everything apart in that engine as well. Love tractors...great video Keep on keeping on.
Nice job look fwd to seeing it rebuilt and running. You can learn a lot from your viewers as many of them are professional mechanics. I learn from my viewers on my channel too. I agree with many of them use those box ends, breaker bars and deep sockets. You'll find the job goes easier on you, the parts and your tools. Thanks for a fun and educational video, thumbs up! Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya
i used to work in an engine rebuilding shop back in the mid 90's. they are closed now. the boss fired the guy doing the boring and honing . while sleeving a straight six continental engine.. one that had been rebuilt many times before. he cut all the way thru the bottom steps on the block so the sleeves would be unsupported at the bottom. he also screwed up the bore size as the sleeves fell thru the block when the owner tried to install them. since we were not in the best area i stayed late with the boss while he bored and honed a bunch of blocks for the next days production. i had learned to bore and hone 15 years before in school but i had not done enough to take over this job position. i noted that when he set the dial bore gauge in the setting master that the indicator needle bounced as it came to a rest.. i stopped him.. it should not do that.. we looked carefully . the setting masters had divots in the end from the carbide balls rubbing them as they bore gauge was set in and readjusted perhaps 100+ times a day. when the sunnen rep came the next day.. he left his setting kit and took ours.. he said he had never seen so much wear before.. all of a sudden all the bore sizes were accurate again. this is probably what happen to this tractor block.. when sleeves get installed sometimes they get a high temp adhesive on the outside as they are pounded into place.. you probably knew the block was overbored for sleeves but now you know why it happens..
@@luvr381 absolutely.. and it was his nephew also. i saw the nephew drop a 318 piston pin for a full floating application.. i ask if it had a bur on the end from hitting the concrete .. nah. i went on about my business.. he honed the heck out of the small end bearing and piston to get that damaged pin to fit. i did not catch it until the car owner came back with a double pin knock.. i knew what it was as soon as i opened the hood.. tore the engine out.. found the offending piston.. took it out.. put a new bushing in the rod.. new piston and pin.. a fresh set of rings on that piston and it was fixed.. the customer was crazy happy.. i was furious.. so i was glad to see him go. even though that ment more work..
wayne p: good explanation. This subject hits a nerve. I dropped off my standard cylinders (`67 Hog) at the dealer, Pacific H.D. This was in 1973. They screwed up the bore to .060 in. over and they were off center. Then they ordered sleeves from the mainland and it took 30 days! They tried to get me to pick up the molested cylinders.
My 1940 9n was worse when I rebuilt it 30 yrs ago. Spent more on parts and machine work on the little thing than I did nn most race motors back then. Upside is it still runs as good today as it did right after its resurrection. These are fine old tractors!
I put a 263 straight 8 out of a Buick in my 8n. Had a bell housing adapter made, bought a junk donor tractor to lengthen everything by 14" including the hood. New factory radiator still had a problem cooling, electric fan helped, I ended up selling it at the Mecum Gone Farmin auction 4 years ago, don't know where it ended up, was a lot of fun though!
I have a 1949 8n and have owned it over 25 years. Stay away from the super cheap after market parts for your rebuild! Buy the best carb, cooling system and ignition parts you can afford.The cheap parts are total junk and I have been taken a few times using them! BTY I love all of you videos! Hank Schaffner Flaherty, KY 40175
Straight away I knew it was the cylinder liner .... but the devastation inside the engine was a shock. Keep all of the metal fragments in a big jar ... it will be a talking point for many years to come. Good luck with the re-build, you are on the right track.
BOO! Happy Halloween! Scary goings on with that engine for sure. I have been there. Restoring a 1940 Deere B with similar issues. I now have more in the engine than I paid for the tractor. New block, pistons, rings, repoured babbit bearings, head totally redone. The list goes on and on......... Good luck and keep us posted. Good news is you can find the parts for a rebuild.
Yup on the blue paint. There’s a flyer image floating around getting tractors refreshed to Ford Blue at the dealership. If the block is good there’s plenty of parts out there.
Good day Daniel I live up here in Ont. Last week on kijiji there was a flat head ford V/8 for free, & being older mind doesn't think as guick, never thought of that Thanks
@@donvoll2580 The nut that holds the wheel controls what parts will break. Oh! Ya! Don't show off pulling wheelies with your dad's tractor, breaking an axle. He get MAD!
7:25 You had a lot of play on that connecting rod too. I would definitely let a professional machine shop mic everything out. That crank probably needs to be turned and a new set of matched bearings installed.
Wow, this video should be rated R for intense horror and gore! I was surprised to see such big chunks in the drain pan. I'm used to pretty small drain plugs on newer engines, and even the big drain plugs on the LDT-465 multifuel engines in my 2.5-ton 6x6 trucks have holes smaller than those chunks. I hope that block is salvageable.
Speaking from personal experience, the worst thing I have found was a lifter sitting in the big ripped-open gash in the oil pan, as oil and coolant were running on the ground. That's the result of a rod breaking and knocking the sides of the block out. Close second was finding a valve head embedded in the combustion chamber with a massive hole in the piston. Catastrophic failures are the worst.
If it's ferrous metal mostly a piston liner. If aluminum then most likely a piston skirt. Neither is the end of the world as long as the Block and Crank are intact.
I know all about broken metal part in a rank case looks like. This past summer I built a Farmertec ms 361 kit saw. I did not realize the piston was not relieved properly and was kissing the crank counterweights at bdc. After seven tanks it ate its piston. I have rebuilt this saw with a new crank, piston and cylinder. I did check it to make sure the new piston was not hitting the counterweights. It is running fine, now and has cut a lot of wood.
Looking forward to see the progression on the rebuild. I have a 1948 BMC tractor a 425 with an industrial head on it that is to say my radiator grill is the warehouse industrial version
Little Miss Sobieski's verdict.. tractor engine is totally broken!! My first time seeing an engine taken apart :) Definitely not something I will ever do in my life hey but I might one day have a boyfriend who does this!!
The worst thing? The intake manifold bolt you were looking for is in the combustion chamber. Makes a funny noise when your start it for some reason. I started locking the shop door after that. My "good buddy" just happened to have a running replacement for sale.
Junk the four-cylinder. Do a flathead V8 conversion. I am thinking Edlebrock high rise tri-power with Stromberg 97 carbs, Taterfield heads. . . . yeah, I am sure you know the drill.
On our farm the 8N was an essential utility tractor. Snow removal in winter to hauling hay in summer. Each winter Dad and I would give the Ford a valve job. Never saw our valves as crusty as this tractors. Clearly this oversize bore thing is the fault of the machinist not being able to measure correctly the bore size to match the sleeves. Probably installed them when the block was cold. Maybe 20 hrs of running and then every thing fell apart. This tractor didn't run very well anyway. Running way too rich, possibly dirty fuel, and by the looks of the oil pan - never had an oil change.
That reminds me way back in 1978 a young man who worked for me was servicing an Army Gamma Goat,noticed a little water in the center differential.Upon draining the diff.he found several Grade 8 3/8 bolts came out of the drain hole.They were the bolts that hold the ring gear to the ring gear carrier.Onlt time I ever saw that happen.
I had an 50 or 51 8n. Every time i needed to do work, it required futzing. Bought a brand new JD 32 hp diesel tractor. It just works, everytime. I don’t miss the futzing. I Dont miss the live pto trying to run me through a fence when bush hogging either. Maybe the new tractor doesn’t have the soul of the old ford...but when the point is getting work done, the JD wins.
30 odd years ago I saw a very similar failure on two Massey Ferguson tractors 35 3 cylinder Perkins diesels within two weeks. They were the 3/152 engines with the chromehard liners. What happened in each case was the piston dragged the liner into the bottom of the crankcase breaking off the lip at the top leaving it with the head gasket. Because the liners are chromehard and not cast the don't break up and smash but buckle up like a big mushroom around the crank. The only was to get the engine apart was to cut off the conrod with oxy and lift the crank out. By coincidence I was actually delivering to the farm when one seized the engine had been running fine the stopped it for dinner and after dinner it wouldn't start, how strange is that.
Ran across some companies that make cylinder sleeves while at SEMA. What will need to be done now is over bore all cylinders. Then new sleeves ordered oversized can then be turned down on a lathe. Then bore inner for stock size.
I am in the engine machine shop business . That isn't so bad . It's repairable . I also noticed when you were moving that # 2 piston around it looked like the rod bearing was wiped out also . There are over sized piston liner kits available for that 8N engine . Having some water in the oil pan also the block needs to be checked for cracks in the cylinders where everything came apart .
My theory is this: That engine was in the process of evolving into a diesel engine and those pieces found in the oil pan were merely left over from doing all that "evoluting." 😂
Not very mechanically inclined but we have a Ferguson to30 that’s very similar to the 8n. I’m going to guess either a cylinder wall or a piston is bad. Let’s find out!
I think your vidio is very interesting I’m going to be doing a Ford 2000 1964 rebuild still runs but tired it’s amazing a lot of comments are from guys who watch how you hold a wrench and not what your doing keep up the videos lookin forward to part 2 thanks. Kozbilt
its bearing material. Likely from either the main caps, or the connecting rods. Just had my van engine spit some at me. If the cam/crank/connecting rod surfaces are not badly scored, you can have them honed down and use larger oversized bearings to fill the gap. Its not an ideal situation, but its possible to rebuild it to working well again. Edit: the piston liners in these flathead engines typically floated, between a lower stop and the head, which meant they would be replaced as a "power pack", with the piston and sleeve honed to match. The sleeve floating up isn't unusual, its usually trapped by the head.
I don't know anything about these particular engines, but I expect it was running fine after the rebuild, until one day the thermostat failed to open, the block got hot, 2 & 3 liner dropped... nasty noises and it was all over before the engine had done another 10 revolutions. The liners in engines that I am more familiar with have a step at the top to stop them dropping, and a corresponding rebate in the top of the block, maybe that's something you can look into when you get it machined again. Good Luck. :-)
I found a chunk of metal in the lower radiator hose while working on my Ferguson TO-20. Looks like zinc. Did they put zinc anodes in there the prevent rust back in the day? If not, I have random metal parts in my cooling system...
The old Jam tin liners . Ford used them on the V8 and the English Bedford truck engines were similarly cursed. looks like the engine never had an oil change and was run without water ,hence the loosened liners and run bearings.
A lot of play sideways on the piston rods when jiggling the pistons at about 7:20 in the video, may also be a problem but the sleeves is most likely the main failure at this stage. but i suggest look up the specs of the crank, piston rods and rod bearings aswell maybe the guy who resleeved the block also laithed the crank to undersize and still installed stock bearings because that fittment is a rattle fit and must had a lot of rod knock if it ran at all for any longer period after the rebuild.
Ouch not good Blake, never worked on an 8N but those double arm steering boxes I always pull the drag links off and fold them over the rear of the tractor my old boss who was massey for nearly 50 yrs said the massey steering boxes were a bugger to get back in sync if the arms come off the worm, just be careful that no one turns the steering wheel
So it looks like a bodge job was performed on the engine the previous time that it was rebuild. I've occasionally come across motorcycle engines like this which turned from a simple repair into a "fix the additional damage done by the bodger" before fixing the original fault. The worst was a 125cc high compression 2 stroke motor where one of the studs had threads striped at the alloy block end. So the bodger had heated and hammered the ends of the studs into bodkins and then lump hammered them into the block. This bodge had taken some considerable planning and effort compare to fixing the fault correctly with a steel threaded insert 9which is how I fixed it). The owner of the bike that this engine installed was forever blowing head gaskets. I'd tighten down the head to 22 Pounds / Foot, run the engine up and test ride it round the block, then check the stud torque when the engine had cooled down an hour later. 22 -22 -22 - >10 when tested with a draw guage and a torque wrench (just to be sure). So I'd torque it down again and run the engine again. then the stud came completely free and on pulling it out I discovered the bodge!! It's now in my black museum collection of bad things I've found in engines.
Maybe the 8N were sleeved but I did a 9N myself about 15 years ago that was not sleeved. It had been rebuilt once before and had .040" over sized pistons and due to my grandpa having rna it fore decades with more dead cylinder at any point in time than running ones 3 of the 4 cylinder walls miced at near .090" out with between .040" and .060" side wall clearance between the pistons and cylinders ! (they were almost as loose as your piston was on the cylinder missing the liner. ) Beyond that the main and rod bearings were ~.025" and .060" out and thin as foil. So loose that two fo they pistons could be seen to visibly rotate back and forth when twisted. Guessing it running with near zero oil pressure for 30 years had something to do with it. Up until I got older and started taking over the family equipment maintenance, my family sorto f had this motto "zero maintenance equals zero operating cost. If you never fix anything, it never cost anything to operate." and yes, most of our equipment at that point in life was basically junk.
The old girl droped a liner. I agree that the liner drop is ehat caused the pistin skirt to go. How is the linner supported in thoes engines? Top or mid support. Can't wait for more videos.
Didn't venture a guess, though I could tell from the size of the initial pieces it wasn't bearings. I don't know much about tractor engines to be honest, didn't think about the cylinders being lined. But looking at the carnage that must have sounded AWESOME when those sleeves let go. 😬😖
Hey, why not as I follow from alaska and see what your up against. I pulled wrenches for years and would be yet had I not got crippled. I usually am fixing but learning looks good too. I think you might of got lucky as it granaided and then shut down before pieces started wedging others to the outside area. I see mistakes were made in the installation of the liners like trying to install a dry liner and piston assembled or well, I'll learn with you.
i had a similar issue with a 39 flathead ford...how I resolved it was using toyota sleeves which are slightly larger in diamater.. and rebored to finish size.. always bore block for sleeves leaving a slight lip on bottom for sleeve to stop against.
Just weld those old liners back together (being careful to match up the bits to make them original parts again) and then weld them into the block and it will be as good as new!
1:30 in the video, I think it is a crankshaft shell bearing and pieces of either a crankshaft bearing or con rod mount bearing / shell. Now to the rest of the video. Edit: I never thought of the sleeves dropping and shattering. I have had a Renault 4 where number 1 piston was completely smashed and number 2 piston was only half there and the engine still ran, although very smokey. Never before have I seen or known sleeves drop before.
I've seen this before, but I've never understood why sleeves were used in the first place. What was the advantage? I don't know, 1930s Ford technology has always puzzled me! What also amazed me was that the damn tractors still ran, poorly, smoking, and weak as heck, but they started up and ran! Ford has always done things differently! Does anyone remember adjusting the valve clearance on some Ford 6-cyl engines by changing the push rods? Replacing the heater assembly on a '72 full size by first removing the RH fender? Yup, Fords are strange!
Doug Anderson he did ask EVERYONE not just a few people he put his input in and your shooting it down your real smart eh got nothing better to do then to cause keyboard wars on yt
Part of a babbit bearing shim I've seen that in old V-8 engines back in the day but I could be wrong .....used car dealers used to be bad about shimming the bearings ,pouring saw dust in the manual transmission and the rearend to stop them from whining
I've always watched your videos but when I hit the like button it does not show how many people have watch the video is their a problem I hope not keep up the good work Blake 😁
If the liners were too loose in the block then that can contribute to the failure. The liners are meant to be a snug fit in the block to give them strength. Without the support the liners are relatively weak and can fail, just like in your engine. Not a total loss but not great.
I wonder if those are original pistons. They look strange with oil ring below the pin. Mine didn't look like that. I dropped a sleeve while mowing, it was knocking really badly like a rod bearing and started smoking badly, even out of the breather! I was lazy when I overhauled it the first time and just honed the old liners. Be sure to flush absolutely everything cause the cast iron sleeve particles get pumped everywhere; took out my new bearings.
You didn't mention anything about sequence of removal of head bolts or studs and nuts. What happened to sequence of removal of head bolts, (yes I see those are studs and nuts)? Sequence of removing head bolts or studs and nuts reduces the possibility of warping the head (caused by the sudden release of torque pressure by rapidly backing of each one as you did). That's what it looked like anyway.
Now I've seen the rest, that's pretty bad. Is it possible the broken liners expanded and cracked from startup in freezing cold weather and then not letting it warm up slowly or the liners expanding and breaking from the block bore being too loose of a fit? Can't wait to see measurements of the block bores.
Heard of a guy who tore down a Caterpillar dozer engine down they pulled the oil pan off and found a complete 3/8 drive socket set in the box in the oil pan. At first I thought it was a rod bearing.
On a truck I knew the wet liners had to be clamped when the pistons were to be moved or else leaks started. On a car the liner had an air pocket at back so that piston blew a hole with overheating. {UK 2020}
The maintenance on this poor tractor reflects how owners care about their equipment. The oil in that pan is so bad, it could be original from the factory. Maybe all they did is top it up when the oil was down.
BOX END of that combo wrench on the nuts PLEASE...! GEESH...! I also see a bunch of play in the #2 rod bearing...
YES! Or a deep well socket wrench maybe? Much easier too...
@@CarlinLusk Even better, clean and lube the threads before removing the nuts
I agree!!! I wish this guy was a professional mechanic. It's like he never heard of a socket, extension and ratchet, or speed handle.
Mark Leathers he is a professional mechanic/ farmer he knows what he is doing.
@@markleathers5797 Yet he used an impact gun to remove the pressure plate bolts.
It's good that you can laugh at your troubles! Press on, my friend.
Ouch! That is not a welcome surprise. I am looking forward to seeing how you get this engine back in working order.
Wow! I'm wondering why on earth the previous rebuilder hone'd the crap out of those bores(?) I worked for a Ford/Ferguson dealer in Neffs, PA, back in the 70's. In my experience those liners are made to fit "TIGHT". When we installed 8n liners we had the parts-guy stop at the Lehigh Valley Dairy on his way to work that morning and buy a 25-pound box of dry ice. After a cold soak for about five minutes in the dry ice the liners would slide right in. Because the liners are so thin we found the best way to get them out was to use a fairly long and specially ground cold-chisel, which was ground smooth on one side. With the smooth side against the bore wall, you could "carefully" split the liner to get it out. We found the liners to be too thin and too soft to get them out with a puller because the puller-plate would sometimes slip past the end of the liner and wedge itself into the bore... and in the worst case crack the block. No sir... an 8n is not supposed to have slippy-slidey cylinder liners. Someone really screwed the pooch on that rebuild. I hope you can salvage that block.
It part of the steel liner for a cylinder.
Yes
Yep 2
Or could be part of the piston
No to thin.
Yup liner
As a machinist I can tell you that the block can be bored, an custom sleeves made fairly easily.
Somebody oversized the sleeve bores in the last rebuild. Also, a narrow straight knurl near the lip may help hold the new ones in place.
Also, just 8 No .com has all kind of cool parts including blocks, etc.
Thank you! The problem I’m running into is finding a local shop that is willing to do the work. The only place I’ve found so far won’t guarantee anything and wants a $2k deposit up front. I may end up having to travel a few hundred miles to find someone I can work with.
@@GuyinWY try just8ns .com in North Carolina they have remanufactured blocks for either side distributor, or front for 1450.00 USD!
P.S. they also have electronic ignition kits.... Don’t hesitate to call them. They may move a little slow, but they will treat you right.
Your sound quality is hugely improved. Thanks for working on it!!!
Good thing its Halloween soon, because this engine is a horror.
Haha
That metal coming out of your so called oil is the engine saying "I GIVE UP!!!".
Happened to my 8n also. Napa has a sleeve retainer compound.Its like a loctite. I used it on my new sleeves.
Locktite makes a great retaining compound. Those 8N's had either a .040 or a .090 dry liner, I always used the locktite retainer when putting new liners in.. A little note, if I had to guess by all the damage, this motor was an ether "addict". Hate that stuff. Used to tell my customers, 'if you find a can of starting fluid in my shop, I'll give you 20.00$. Never use ether, use WD-40 or a rag soaked in gas held next to the air intake will help start a low compression engine, just never use ether......
I figured cylinder sleeve right off the bat, but I do appreciate your courage in disassembling the engine that far yourself. I'm not sure I have the tools or the inclination to attempt that myself.
"Rebuild" sounds like fixing something that's still running. Hard to believe this thing still was, or not making the most infernal noises if so.
You're all kinds of high class. When I fixed the 8n I had, i blocked the transmission and engine, pulled the front axle off. Then slid the engine out from the transmission while still sitting on the blocks. Then I set the engine on it's side on the same block and tore it down. Put it back together. Stood back on the oil pan and slid it back together. But i was younger and stronger (dumber) at the time.
I am glad you are rebuilding this old piece of art.
I disagree with you sir....the worst thing to find in your engine is a termite colony.
I found that in a VW engine I was trying to rebuild. Their waist, cellulose and moisture seized and rotted everything in that engine. I had to pound it apart...The only things remotely salvageable were the con rods and crank....even the magnesium case had holes in it...ha,ha,ha
My next worse was 5 gallons of water in the crankcase and trans of my 45 model A John Deere.......had to inventively pound everything apart in that engine as well.
Love tractors...great video
Keep on keeping on.
Nice job look fwd to seeing it rebuilt and running. You can learn a lot from your viewers as many of them are professional mechanics. I learn from my viewers on my channel too. I agree with many of them use those box ends, breaker bars and deep sockets. You'll find the job goes easier on you, the parts and your tools. Thanks for a fun and educational video, thumbs up! Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya
Wow, what a mess! Can't wait for the next video in the series.
Seen some beautifully restored 8n's going for cheap, they are a good tractor, love them fully restored in all the livery.
i used to work in an engine rebuilding shop back in the mid 90's. they are closed now. the boss fired the guy doing the boring and honing . while sleeving a straight six continental engine.. one that had been rebuilt many times before. he cut all the way thru the bottom steps on the block so the sleeves would be unsupported at the bottom. he also screwed up the bore size as the sleeves fell thru the block when the owner tried to install them.
since we were not in the best area i stayed late with the boss while he bored and honed a bunch of blocks for the next days production. i had learned to bore and hone 15 years before in school but i had not done enough to take over this job position. i noted that when he set the dial bore gauge in the setting master that the indicator needle bounced as it came to a rest.. i stopped him.. it should not do that.. we looked carefully . the setting masters had divots in the end from the carbide balls rubbing them as they bore gauge was set in and readjusted perhaps 100+ times a day. when the sunnen rep came the next day.. he left his setting kit and took ours.. he said he had never seen so much wear before.. all of a sudden all the bore sizes were accurate again. this is probably what happen to this tractor block.. when sleeves get installed sometimes they get a high temp adhesive on the outside as they are pounded into place.. you probably knew the block was overbored for sleeves but now you know why it happens..
Comprehensive explanation, Thx
Hope you got a raise. That was particularly important info for you boss, considering the business he was in.
So he fired a guy who got a job wrong because of faulty equipment?
@@luvr381 absolutely.. and it was his nephew also. i saw the nephew drop a 318 piston pin for a full floating application.. i ask if it had a bur on the end from hitting the concrete .. nah. i went on about my business.. he honed the heck out of the small end bearing and piston to get that damaged pin to fit. i did not catch it until the car owner came back with a double pin knock.. i knew what it was as soon as i opened the hood.. tore the engine out.. found the offending piston.. took it out.. put a new bushing in the rod.. new piston and pin.. a fresh set of rings on that piston and it was fixed.. the customer was crazy happy.. i was furious.. so i was glad to see him go. even though that ment more work..
@@waynep343 Oh, one of those guys, huh?
wayne p: good explanation. This subject hits a nerve. I dropped off my standard cylinders (`67 Hog) at the dealer, Pacific H.D. This was in 1973. They screwed up the bore to .060 in. over and they were off center. Then they ordered sleeves from the mainland and it took 30 days! They tried to get me to pick up the molested cylinders.
My 1940 9n was worse when I rebuilt it 30 yrs ago. Spent more on parts and machine work on the little thing than I did nn most race motors back then. Upside is it still runs as good today as it did right after its resurrection. These are fine old tractors!
I put a 263 straight 8 out of a Buick in my 8n. Had a bell housing adapter made, bought a junk donor tractor to lengthen everything by 14" including the hood. New factory radiator still had a problem cooling, electric fan helped, I ended up selling it at the Mecum Gone Farmin auction 4 years ago, don't know where it ended up, was a lot of fun though!
Yeah it’s a cylinder sleeve
I have a 1949 8n and have owned it over 25 years. Stay away from the super cheap after market parts for your rebuild! Buy the best carb, cooling system and ignition parts you can afford.The cheap parts are total junk and I have been taken a few times using them! BTY I love all of you videos! Hank Schaffner Flaherty, KY 40175
Straight away I knew it was the cylinder liner .... but the devastation inside the engine was a shock. Keep all of the metal fragments in a big jar ... it will be a talking point for many years to come. Good luck with the re-build, you are on the right track.
Oh dear, I'm saying it's dropped a sleeve?!
BOO! Happy Halloween! Scary goings on with that engine for sure. I have been there. Restoring a 1940 Deere B with similar issues. I now have more in the engine than I paid for the tractor. New block, pistons, rings, repoured babbit bearings, head totally redone. The list goes on and on......... Good luck and keep us posted. Good news is you can find the parts for a rebuild.
Yup on the blue paint. There’s a flyer image floating around getting tractors refreshed to Ford Blue at the dealership. If the block is good there’s plenty of parts out there.
It looks like a good candidate for one of those flathead V8 conversions.
Good day Daniel I live up here in Ont. Last week on kijiji there was a flat head ford V/8 for free, & being older mind doesn't think as guick, never thought of that Thanks
a i6 furd 300 cid would be better
@@johndowe7003 Yes I think your are right. Our neighbor had one with 6cyl. in, the rear end did not stand up if you over work them Thanks
@@donvoll2580 The nut that holds the wheel controls what parts will break. Oh! Ya! Don't show off pulling wheelies with your dad's tractor, breaking an axle. He get MAD!
@@calvinmientke3539 yeah my 8n is stock, i break traction before i stall out most of the time
You have got me hooked please tell me that you have more on this tractor I’m dying to see more
7:25 You had a lot of play on that connecting rod too. I would definitely let a professional machine shop mic everything out. That crank probably needs to be turned and a new set of matched bearings installed.
the crank is done for .
Looks like some cheap aftermarket liners were put in that didn't fit correctly , enjoyed vid thanks
Up to the machinist to check what he fits where, you can tell when they are pushed in if too loose!
Wow, this video should be rated R for intense horror and gore! I was surprised to see such big chunks in the drain pan. I'm used to pretty small drain plugs on newer engines, and even the big drain plugs on the LDT-465 multifuel engines in my 2.5-ton 6x6 trucks have holes smaller than those chunks. I hope that block is salvageable.
This would be the perfect time to put a super charged flat head V8 in the tractor.
Thank you for getting a mic. The audio is soooo much nicer. Thank you
Shoots Blake, the video and audio is great!
Speaking from personal experience, the worst thing I have found was a lifter sitting in the big ripped-open gash in the oil pan, as oil and coolant were running on the ground. That's the result of a rod breaking and knocking the sides of the block out. Close second was finding a valve head embedded in the combustion chamber with a massive hole in the piston. Catastrophic failures are the worst.
I was thinking either rod or main bearing but after you said sleeved cylinders that made complete sense.
If it's ferrous metal mostly a piston liner. If aluminum then most likely a piston skirt. Neither is the end of the world as long as the Block and Crank are intact.
I know all about broken metal part in a rank case looks like. This past summer I built a Farmertec ms 361 kit saw. I did not realize the piston was not relieved properly and was kissing the crank counterweights at bdc. After seven tanks it ate its piston. I have rebuilt this saw with a new crank, piston and cylinder. I did check it to make sure the new piston was not hitting the counterweights. It is running fine, now and has cut a lot of wood.
Looking forward to see the progression on the rebuild. I have a 1948 BMC tractor a 425 with an industrial head on it that is to say my radiator grill is the warehouse industrial version
Little Miss Sobieski's verdict.. tractor engine is totally broken!!
My first time seeing an engine taken apart :)
Definitely not something I will ever do in my life hey but I might one day have a boyfriend who does this!!
The worst thing? The intake manifold bolt you were looking for is in the combustion chamber. Makes a funny noise when your start it for some reason. I started locking the shop door after that. My "good buddy" just happened to have a running replacement for sale.
Junk the four-cylinder. Do a flathead V8 conversion. I am thinking Edlebrock high rise tri-power with Stromberg 97 carbs, Taterfield heads. . . . yeah, I am sure you know the drill.
On our farm the 8N was an essential utility tractor. Snow removal in winter to hauling hay in summer. Each winter Dad and I would give the Ford a valve job. Never saw our valves as crusty as this tractors. Clearly this oversize bore thing is the fault of the machinist not being able to measure correctly the bore size to match the sleeves. Probably installed them when the block was cold. Maybe 20 hrs of running and then every thing fell apart. This tractor didn't run very well anyway. Running way too rich, possibly dirty fuel, and by the looks of the oil pan - never had an oil change.
Great mess. Can’t wait for next video
That reminds me way back in 1978 a young man who worked for me was servicing an Army Gamma Goat,noticed a little water in the center differential.Upon draining the diff.he found several Grade 8 3/8 bolts came out of the drain hole.They were the bolts that hold the ring gear to the ring gear carrier.Onlt time I ever saw that happen.
I had an 50 or 51 8n. Every time i needed to do work, it required futzing. Bought a brand new JD 32 hp diesel tractor. It just works, everytime. I don’t miss the futzing. I Dont miss the live pto trying to run me through a fence when bush hogging either. Maybe the new tractor doesn’t have the soul of the old ford...but when the point is getting work done, the JD wins.
Its never good when there is more engine in the oil than there is oil in the engine :-)
WOW! thats so fucking funny i forgot to laugh. HA HA!
Been there...
30 odd years ago I saw a very similar failure on two Massey Ferguson tractors 35 3 cylinder Perkins diesels within two weeks. They were the 3/152 engines with the chromehard liners. What happened in each case was the piston dragged the liner into the bottom of the crankcase breaking off the lip at the top leaving it with the head gasket. Because the liners are chromehard and not cast the don't break up and smash but buckle up like a big mushroom around the crank. The only was to get the engine apart was to cut off the conrod with oxy and lift the crank out. By coincidence I was actually delivering to the farm when one seized the engine had been running fine the stopped it for dinner and after dinner it wouldn't start, how strange is that.
At least somebody saved a bunch by not doing all those stupid oil changes.
Ran across some companies that make cylinder sleeves while at SEMA. What will need to be done now is over bore all cylinders. Then new sleeves ordered oversized can then be turned down on a lathe. Then bore inner for stock size.
I am in the engine machine shop business . That isn't so bad . It's repairable . I also noticed when you were moving that # 2 piston around it looked like the rod bearing was wiped out also . There are over sized piston liner kits available for that 8N engine . Having some water in the oil pan also the block needs to be checked for cracks in the cylinders where everything came apart .
Hmm. Liner shake. Are you sure it's not an MBE Mercedes? Do they make an oversize OD liner?
My theory is this: That engine was in the process of evolving into
a diesel engine and those pieces found in the oil pan were merely left
over from doing all that "evoluting." 😂
Not very mechanically inclined but we have a Ferguson to30 that’s very similar to the 8n. I’m going to guess either a cylinder wall or a piston is bad. Let’s find out!
I think your vidio is very interesting I’m going to be doing a Ford 2000 1964 rebuild still runs but tired it’s amazing a lot of comments are from guys who watch how you hold a wrench and not what your doing keep up the videos lookin forward to part 2 thanks. Kozbilt
I'm no starship engineer, but my guess would be bearins….poor, poor bearins….or it could be #2 piston sleeve, and #3 also..
Granted I'm no mechanic but I've never seen anything like that. Have fun with that one Blake.
its a really easy fix tbh, you can get away with replacing it and thats it, dont really "need" a full rebuild
its bearing material. Likely from either the main caps, or the connecting rods. Just had my van engine spit some at me. If the cam/crank/connecting rod surfaces are not badly scored, you can have them honed down and use larger oversized bearings to fill the gap. Its not an ideal situation, but its possible to rebuild it to working well again.
Edit: the piston liners in these flathead engines typically floated, between a lower stop and the head, which meant they would be replaced as a "power pack", with the piston and sleeve honed to match. The sleeve floating up isn't unusual, its usually trapped by the head.
Ohhh Crap!!! Hate seeing that !!! 😡 hope there's an plan B and D (engine wise, 🙂👍) failure is not an option man !!! 😁👍🔨🔩🔧🚜🐕
Rod bearing on #2 looked a little loose too.
Yeah, I saw that too
Enjoying this series
I don't know anything about these particular engines, but I expect it was running fine after the rebuild, until one day the thermostat failed to open, the block got hot, 2 & 3 liner dropped... nasty noises and it was all over before the engine had done another 10 revolutions. The liners in engines that I am more familiar with have a step at the top to stop them dropping, and a corresponding rebate in the top of the block, maybe that's something you can look into when you get it machined again. Good Luck. :-)
Wow, I thought they shouldered the sleeves so that wouldn't happen. Wow.
I found a chunk of metal in the lower radiator hose while working on my Ferguson TO-20. Looks like zinc. Did they put zinc anodes in there the prevent rust back in the day? If not, I have random metal parts in my cooling system...
The old Jam tin liners . Ford used them on the V8 and the English Bedford truck engines were similarly cursed. looks like the engine never had an oil change and was run without water ,hence the loosened liners and run bearings.
Nice, I enjoy this series
More Money, More Money
I've never seen such thin sleeves! It's popular to bore the Ford Flathead V8's 250 thousandths, 1/4"!
A lot of play sideways on the piston rods when jiggling the pistons at about 7:20 in the video, may also be a problem but the sleeves is most likely the main failure at this stage.
but i suggest look up the specs of the crank, piston rods and rod bearings aswell maybe the guy who resleeved the block also laithed the crank to undersize and still installed stock bearings because that fittment is a rattle fit and must had a lot of rod knock if it ran at all for any longer period after the rebuild.
Ouch not good Blake, never worked on an 8N but those double arm steering boxes I always pull the drag links off and fold them over the rear of the tractor my old boss who was massey for nearly 50 yrs said the massey steering boxes were a bugger to get back in sync if the arms come off the worm, just be careful that no one turns the steering wheel
Bugger.. part 2 of the tractor going to the doctor is not available yet and I sooooo want to see if you make it all better too!!
The worst thing to find in an engine is a “Barbie Doll”.
there are two different thicknesses of sleeves. if yours are the thin ones you can bore the block and put in the thick wall sleeves
So it looks like a bodge job was performed on the engine the previous time that it was rebuild. I've occasionally come across motorcycle engines like this which turned from a simple repair into a "fix the additional damage done by the bodger" before fixing the original fault.
The worst was a 125cc high compression 2 stroke motor where one of the studs had threads striped at the alloy block end. So the bodger had heated and hammered the ends of the studs into bodkins and then lump hammered them into the block. This bodge had taken some considerable planning and effort compare to fixing the fault correctly with a steel threaded insert 9which is how I fixed it). The owner of the bike that this engine installed was forever blowing head gaskets. I'd tighten down the head to 22 Pounds / Foot, run the engine up and test ride it round the block, then check the stud torque when the engine had cooled down an hour later. 22 -22 -22 - >10 when tested with a draw guage and a torque wrench (just to be sure). So I'd torque it down again and run the engine again. then the stud came completely free and on pulling it out I discovered the bodge!! It's now in my black museum collection of bad things I've found in engines.
Maybe the 8N were sleeved but I did a 9N myself about 15 years ago that was not sleeved. It had been rebuilt once before and had .040" over sized pistons and due to my grandpa having rna it fore decades with more dead cylinder at any point in time than running ones 3 of the 4 cylinder walls miced at near .090" out with between .040" and .060" side wall clearance between the pistons and cylinders ! (they were almost as loose as your piston was on the cylinder missing the liner. )
Beyond that the main and rod bearings were ~.025" and .060" out and thin as foil. So loose that two fo they pistons could be seen to visibly rotate back and forth when twisted. Guessing it running with near zero oil pressure for 30 years had something to do with it.
Up until I got older and started taking over the family equipment maintenance, my family sorto f had this motto "zero maintenance equals zero operating cost. If you never fix anything, it never cost anything to operate." and yes, most of our equipment at that point in life was basically junk.
The old girl droped a liner. I agree that the liner drop is ehat caused the pistin skirt to go. How is the linner supported in thoes engines? Top or mid support. Can't wait for more videos.
Didn't venture a guess, though I could tell from the size of the initial pieces it wasn't bearings. I don't know much about tractor engines to be honest, didn't think about the cylinders being lined. But looking at the carnage that must have sounded AWESOME when those sleeves let go. 😬😖
Hey, why not as I follow from alaska and see what your up against. I pulled wrenches for years and would be yet had I not got crippled. I usually am fixing but learning looks good too. I think you might of got lucky as it granaided and then shut down before pieces started wedging others to the outside area. I see mistakes were made in the installation of the liners like trying to install a dry liner and piston assembled or well, I'll learn with you.
i had a similar issue with a 39 flathead ford...how I resolved it was using toyota sleeves which are slightly larger in diamater.. and rebored to finish size.. always bore block for sleeves leaving a slight lip on bottom for sleeve to stop against.
Just weld those old liners back together (being careful to match up the bits to make them original parts again) and then weld them into the block and it will be as good as new!
great video, will be nice to see the process of repair on a cylinder liner.
1:30 in the video, I think it is a crankshaft shell bearing and pieces of either a crankshaft bearing or con rod mount bearing / shell. Now to the rest of the video.
Edit: I never thought of the sleeves dropping and shattering. I have had a Renault 4 where number 1 piston was completely smashed and number 2 piston was only half there and the engine still ran, although very smokey. Never before have I seen or known sleeves drop before.
3:06 somebody should buy him an impact driver 😂
After the chunk fell out of the drain plug, plug in the compressor and air hose. Nuts are a flying!
I have a battery one that would have taken those all off in less then a minute lol
Good time for a Funk V8 or Six cylinder conversation if the blocks not savable. Those 2 8 and 9N blocks are not hard to come by.
I've seen this before, but I've never understood why sleeves were used in the first place. What was the advantage? I don't know, 1930s Ford technology has always puzzled me! What also amazed me was that the damn tractors still ran, poorly, smoking, and weak as heck, but they started up and ran! Ford has always done things differently! Does anyone remember adjusting the valve clearance on some Ford 6-cyl engines by changing the push rods? Replacing the heater assembly on a '72 full size by first removing the RH fender? Yup, Fords are strange!
I feel like it could be bearing material or piston skirts
Doug Anderson he did ask EVERYONE not just a few people he put his input in and your shooting it down your real smart eh got nothing better to do then to cause keyboard wars on yt
@@douganderson7002 dickwad
Too wide to be bearings (at least that one big piece), so might be cylinder liner pieces. Holy Camolie! Just saw the pan! Liners!
Part of a babbit bearing shim I've seen that in old V-8 engines back in the day but I could be wrong .....used car dealers used to be bad about shimming the bearings ,pouring saw dust in the manual transmission and the rearend to stop them from whining
Ooops I was wrong about the babbit bearings but ....I have seen that before
Internal engine parts🤪 sorry, couldn’t help myself
I've always watched your videos but when I hit the like button it does not show how many people have watch the video is their a problem I hope not keep up the good work Blake 😁
If the liners were too loose in the block then that can contribute to the failure. The liners are meant to be a snug fit in the block to give them strength. Without the support the liners are relatively weak and can fail, just like in your engine. Not a total loss but not great.
I wonder if those are original pistons. They look strange with oil ring below the pin. Mine didn't look like that. I dropped a sleeve while mowing, it was knocking really badly like a rod bearing and started smoking badly, even out of the breather! I was lazy when I overhauled it the first time and just honed the old liners. Be sure to flush absolutely everything cause the cast iron sleeve particles get pumped everywhere; took out my new bearings.
You didn't mention anything about sequence of removal of head bolts or studs and nuts. What happened to sequence of removal of head bolts, (yes I see those are studs and nuts)? Sequence of removing head bolts or studs and nuts reduces the possibility of warping the head (caused by the sudden release of torque pressure by rapidly backing of each one as you did). That's what it looked like anyway.
Now I've seen the rest, that's pretty bad. Is it possible the broken liners expanded and cracked from startup in freezing cold weather and then not letting it warm up slowly or the liners expanding and breaking from the block bore being too loose of a fit? Can't wait to see measurements of the block bores.
Heard of a guy who tore down a Caterpillar dozer engine down they pulled the oil pan off and found a complete 3/8 drive socket set in the box in the oil pan. At first I thought it was a rod bearing.
Cylinder liner material, for sure. Luckily you can get new liners, as long as the bore isn't damaged.
Just something I noticed but at 7:28 your rod bearing was way loose.
On a truck I knew the wet liners had to be clamped when the pistons were to be moved or else leaks started. On a car the liner had an air pocket at back so that piston blew a hole with overheating. {UK 2020}
The maintenance on this poor tractor reflects how owners care about their equipment. The oil in that pan is so bad, it could be original from the factory. Maybe all they did is top it up when the oil was down.