Adding equal amounts of stiff and liquid starter by weight, actually supplied more fermented flour to the dough in the stiff starter case (stiff: 67/3x2=45g; liquid: 67/2=34g). That means much more yeast in the dough to start with, and more flour in total, favoring the stiff starter case. A fairer game would be 67g stiff starter with additional 23g of water, 90g liquid starer to ensure there were equal amounts of fermented flour in both cases.
hi I really don't see a difference in crumb , and stiff starter meaning g les water to me otherwise why ? otherwise if you add more flour in your starter it will change the fermentation so what the trick ? it will be more growing faster with less water
I use a stiff starter 3:52 for all my sourdoughs. My wife prefers less tangy bread so that's my main reason plus it never fails. Make bread, feed the starter to near 200g. Leave out till it is growing. Place in fridge till next bake. Place cold starter in oven with light on. Within a couple of hours it is growing again. Use about 150 or so in pain de mie or artisan or rolls. Repeat, feed starter, when growing, place in fridge till next 4:55 bake.
For total hydration.... Stiff ( 260+ 68/3) / ( 325+ 68/3x2)=76.3% . Liquid ( 260+ 68/2) / ( 325+ 68/2)=81.8% they are very different hydration. Especially you are using AP flour. Normally for less hydration is more stable. so I would suggest maybe next time take some water away from liquid starter dough ( 81.8%-76.3%) x 325= 17,875 g , then, the hydration will be equal. I feel it will make the test more meaningful . ( Always enjoy watching how you handle the dough. The liquid starter one shows how good you can handle. )
@@KerriEverlasting Then you are missing out, or very skilled indeed. I bake some eight different breads regularly and another fourteen or so occasionally. I get consistently good results. Every recipe has been fine tuned through experiment. None of that is possible without measuring - even with my forty years of bread baking experience.
I understand (my wife's a strict measurer..I'm more "free form"..she'd say slapdash!), but sometimes it's nice to just go with the flow, by "feel"? I've used strict measuring and got differing results ..there are so many variables affecting the outcome. Baking hundreds (or even thousands of loaves) gives an idea of proportions and what one's dough feels and looks like..a high level of skill (second sense).
You and this site have been the absolute authority for me for several years. Long enough ago that I hadn’t checked your site in years. I see what strikes me as a substantial evolution. My process from your tape included a hard S&P after 30 min rest following salt incorporation. Then lamination following a 30 min rest after the “hard” S&P. I would to know background/reasons for the change. However, today’s loaf will follow the revised technique.
harley davidson and holly golightly flour canisters … how could one possibly go wrong? ))) your sourdough videos are the most instructive and relaxing ones i’ve found anywhere … and your touch is very deft and delicate with all the dough. i am learning so much. thank you.
The difference is supposed to be in the flavor of the bread. Dry starter is supposed to have a different kind of tang. You can compare the taste or compare the oven spring and crumb.
I think your starters (both stiff & liquid) are in excellent condition! The crumb of the stiff reminded me of some great panettone crumbs I see online...haha I think you are ready to try and post a video with panettone this year. Also the flour (robin hood) is an infallible one...one can never fail making bread unless he is impatient and doesn't give it the time it needs in bulk fermentation. I never use this flour for bread making anymore (I used to some years ago) as I find the crumb a bit like rubber and blunt in taste and I prefer more tasty flours, that's why I combine more than 3 in my breads (white, semi integral, rye, spelt, semola rimachinata, wholewheat etc. It is an excellent flour though for sweet doughs and I also use it in a percentage to feed my starter when I run out of the italian flour I use. Thank you for the video and yes, the winner is the stiff starter as it is stronger than the liquid one!!
I want to know about taste difference. Because he added extra water to the dough with stiff starter, the hydration was the same. Only the acid differences remain.
I feel that the stiff leaven is probably loaded with a little more bacteria and yeast cells, as there is proportionately more flour within the 65g of leaven. A little thicker mix, so it rose a little higher and didn't spread quite as much, with a slightly more even crumb. Like you say, not a lot of difference, though. Nice work!
Few questions 1) You bulk ferment at room temperature 22C-ish? How much do you look for bulk rise to expand, 50%, 100%? Then shape and straight into the fridge?
Always so good to watch your videos, this time learnt something more from your shaping 😊🌺 thank you The stiff starter had a more uniform crumb ? Both were beautiful loaves 👌👌🌹🌻🌺🌼
@@BreadbyJoyRideCoffee the yeast to bacteria ratio leans more to yeast with a stiff starter, so there is not as much bacteria to eat the gluten. Thus you can bake with flour with less protein/gluten structure. It also should make it easier to prevent over-fermentation.
Forgive my ignorance, I'm trying to understand how a stiff starter works. If you add more water to it to keep hydration levels the same or similar, haven't you all of a sudden made it a liquid starter?
The stiff starter one seems to ferment with slightly more volume at the end of bulk - but can’t see much due to the cover. Curious how they looked in reality? Also, the amount of pre-fermented flour differs in stiff vs liquid starter.. I’d assume the stiff starter one ferments faster given the same weight of total starter for that reason
Does the stiff starter create a less sour loaf? I have it in my head that’s why the stiff lievito madre is used for panettone, but I’m not sure where I got that notion.
@@mlarry90 I’m apparently thinking of the very specific ways bakers refresh and “babysit” their pasta madre for panettone (in water, bound in cloth, etc.) rather than general refreshing. Thanks for your input.
I use stiff starter exclusively these days and prefer it precisely because it’s milder (not to mention better suited to hot temperatures). In fact it’s called a “sweet” starter in Michael Suas’ book.
technique question: do you ever use slap-and-fold kneading technique. I saw video with Lionel Poilane doing that, found that very moist doughs come together nicely.
My big problem is I've never been able to get my dough dry and fluffy like this. It always gets stuck onto my hands. What's the secret? I use a whole wheat/rye starter. Not much luck with white bread flour at all, as it won't ever rise sufficiently if I use it to feed my starter. It doesn't matter whether the starter is stiff or liquid. Why don't get that consistency? I try to lead a decent life.
his dough is actually very wet, check out his no more sticky dough and wet dough handling videos. long autolyse, wet hands, and practice are the keys. the trick to a healthy starter is feed it when it's the most active (risen to it's peak) and feed a very high ratio. I have good results with ratios like 5g starter, 5g whole rye, 30g white bread flour, 35g water (1:7:7).
I so 💗 your videos... (The music, the trips through the woods...) ,and this time with Robin Hood flour!! Lol. You've got some good friends to ship you all those floors to play with!
Great comparison :) Recently I've also been intrigued to try stiff starter but haven't done so yet. Out of curiosity, you go for less time with steam in the oven than most other bakers, 10 minutes vs 15-25minutes. Why do you prefer the shorter time with steam, what effects do you think it has on the bread? Thanks!
Stiff starters take longer to become ready after a feed. The starter can be controlled by both stiffness and the temperature it is kept at. I like to keep mine in the fridge all of the time and give it a feed and put it in a proofing box at 24 deg. C (the magic temperature) 6 hours before need it. I use 100% Hydration. If when I give it that last feed I add water to make it 120% Hydration it will be ready in three hours and I simply subtract that water from the water to be added. It's all about finding the pattern which works for you.
There are no differences. What you see is either shaping error or shaping differences. Also, you added water to the stiff starter dough, after the fact. This is called bassinage and it affects the crumb although you added very little water.
Ψωμάρες και οι δύο, μπράβο σου! Όπως ανάφεραν και οι άλλοι πιο κάτω, τα ψωμιά έχουν σημαντικά διαφορετική υγρασία. Εγώ υποπτεύομαι ότι στην ίδια υγρασία, το stiff starter θα είχε καλύτερα αποτελέσματα.
Just wondering, your various vids are from & for the deaf mute community? I've managed to get through 3 of them & no matter how pleasant the background music is, you will be sick of it after it's repeated umpteen times by the end of the vid...kinda like Chinese water torture.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Adding equal amounts of stiff and liquid starter by weight, actually supplied more fermented flour to the dough in the stiff starter case (stiff: 67/3x2=45g; liquid: 67/2=34g). That means much more yeast in the dough to start with, and more flour in total, favoring the stiff starter case. A fairer game would be 67g stiff starter with additional 23g of water, 90g liquid starer to ensure there were equal amounts of fermented flour in both cases.
hi I really don't see a difference in crumb , and stiff starter meaning g les water to me otherwise why ?
otherwise if you add more flour in your starter it will change the fermentation so what the trick ?
it will be more growing faster with less water
I use a stiff starter 3:52 for all my sourdoughs. My wife prefers less tangy bread so that's my main reason plus it never fails. Make bread, feed the starter to near 200g. Leave out till it is growing. Place in fridge till next bake. Place cold starter in oven with light on. Within a couple of hours it is growing again. Use about 150 or so in pain de mie or artisan or rolls. Repeat, feed starter, when growing, place in fridge till next 4:55 bake.
For total hydration.... Stiff ( 260+ 68/3) / ( 325+ 68/3x2)=76.3% . Liquid ( 260+ 68/2) / ( 325+ 68/2)=81.8% they are very different hydration. Especially you are using AP flour. Normally for less hydration is more stable. so I would suggest maybe next time take some water away from liquid starter dough ( 81.8%-76.3%) x 325= 17,875 g , then, the hydration will be equal. I feel it will make the test more meaningful . ( Always enjoy watching how you handle the dough. The liquid starter one shows how good you can handle. )
Strongly agree 👍
I don't even measure anything 😅
@@KerriEverlasting Then you are missing out, or very skilled indeed.
I bake some eight different breads regularly and another fourteen or so occasionally. I get consistently good results. Every recipe has been fine tuned through experiment. None of that is possible without measuring - even with my forty years of bread baking experience.
I understand (my wife's a strict measurer..I'm more "free form"..she'd say slapdash!), but sometimes it's nice to just go with the flow, by "feel"? I've used strict measuring and got differing results ..there are so many variables affecting the outcome. Baking hundreds (or even thousands of loaves) gives an idea of proportions and what one's dough feels and looks like..a high level of skill (second sense).
Robin Hood is a very strong canadian Manitoba flour (13,2%) available in Greece. Gives you excellent resaults
I’d expect any difference to show up in the flavor, which you didn’t comment on. The differences in the crumb can easily be chalked up to randomness.
Stiff one should have more yeast focus with less tang from acid producing bacteria...
@@hamishmaclean1409 so you mean for the least sour tasting bread, should go for stiff starter?
So did I expect !
You and this site have been the absolute authority for me for several years. Long enough ago that I hadn’t checked your site in years. I see what strikes me as a substantial evolution. My process from your tape included a hard S&P after 30 min rest following salt incorporation. Then lamination following a 30 min rest after the “hard” S&P.
I would to know background/reasons for the change. However, today’s loaf will follow the revised technique.
Wonderful video again, I can watch this for hours. Thanks for sharing!
very carefully and lovingly made video. Thank you !
This is amazing. I'm going to try the stiff starter!
just make a cup of tea and enjoy this relaxing video!
harley davidson and holly golightly flour canisters … how could one possibly go wrong? )))
your sourdough videos are the most instructive and relaxing ones i’ve found anywhere … and your touch is very deft and delicate with all the dough.
i am learning so much. thank you.
The difference is supposed to be in the flavor of the bread. Dry starter is supposed to have a different kind of tang. You can compare the taste or compare the oven spring and crumb.
Your videos are almost hypnotic.
Your videos are so relaxing and you bake beautiful bread!
Great result!
Thanks! I love your videos, they help me a lot. I only use a hard starter and it behaves perfectly i love it. Thanks always beautiful video!
He ignores reporting on the most important part ,THE TASTE !
I know! Shaking my head.
I think your starters (both stiff & liquid) are in excellent condition! The crumb of the stiff reminded me of some great panettone crumbs I see online...haha I think you are ready to try and post a video with panettone this year. Also the flour (robin hood) is an infallible one...one can never fail making bread unless he is impatient and doesn't give it the time it needs in bulk fermentation. I never use this flour for bread making anymore (I used to some years ago) as I find the crumb a bit like rubber and blunt in taste and I prefer more tasty flours, that's why I combine more than 3 in my breads (white, semi integral, rye, spelt, semola rimachinata, wholewheat etc. It is an excellent flour though for sweet doughs and I also use it in a percentage to feed my starter when I run out of the italian flour I use. Thank you for the video and yes, the winner is the stiff starter as it is stronger than the liquid one!!
I prefer einkorn flour
Stiff all the way. I just put my liquid to bed. Been very pleased with stiff for months now
Very smooth work.
I want to know about taste difference. Because he added extra water to the dough with stiff starter, the hydration was the same. Only the acid differences remain.
I feel that the stiff leaven is probably loaded with a little more bacteria and yeast cells, as there is proportionately more flour within the 65g of leaven. A little thicker mix, so it rose a little higher and didn't spread quite as much, with a slightly more even crumb. Like you say, not a lot of difference, though. Nice work!
wow, thanks so much for comparison. I was always interested but not enough to do it this way:D
Thanks a lot.🙏🏻You’re Is My Sourdough county Teacher.💐
I like the crumb of the stiff starter more, but both look delicious and have an open crumb. I wonder how they taste like though?
Few questions 1) You bulk ferment at room temperature 22C-ish? How much do you look for bulk rise to expand, 50%, 100%? Then shape and straight into the fridge?
Thanks for sharing such a good video. Could you please make a video about daily routine on taking care of your stiff starter?
Thanks. I love your videos, they help me a lot.
Move playback speed up to 1.5. So no real difference in outcome. Should have sped up to 2 times. ; )
Always so good to watch your videos, this time learnt something more from your shaping 😊🌺 thank you
The stiff starter had a more uniform crumb ? Both were beautiful loaves 👌👌🌹🌻🌺🌼
What music are you playing? I love it alot.
Both loaves are beautiful works of art ❤ is there a reason you don't pre shape? Does it create less open crumb if you pre shape?
If you aren't splitting the dough, i.e. only making one loaf, then the pre shape serves no purpose. It just makes you handle the dough more. Skip it!
Good. Stiff is better for weak flour.
Thnank you. Why? :)
@@BreadbyJoyRideCoffee damn... should be... benefit of the doubt 😇
Probably because stiff starter is less acidic, allowing you to ferment the weak flour more?
@@BreadbyJoyRideCoffee the yeast to bacteria ratio leans more to yeast with a stiff starter, so there is not as much bacteria to eat the gluten. Thus you can bake with flour with less protein/gluten structure. It also should make it easier to prevent over-fermentation.
Forgive my ignorance, I'm trying to understand how a stiff starter works. If you add more water to it to keep hydration levels the same or similar, haven't you all of a sudden made it a liquid starter?
I would say more even open crum on the stiff one. Liquid one has some huge holes.
Please tell me if there are any differences in taste between the two breads.
like a batter. Mixes in better. I use temperature on my starter to produce a more piquant flavor.
The stiff starter one seems to ferment with slightly more volume at the end of bulk - but can’t see much due to the cover. Curious how they looked in reality?
Also, the amount of pre-fermented flour differs in stiff vs liquid starter.. I’d assume the stiff starter one ferments faster given the same weight of total starter for that reason
Does the stiff starter create a less sour loaf? I have it in my head that’s why the stiff lievito madre is used for panettone, but I’m not sure where I got that notion.
In theory it's the other way round. Stiff starter produces more acetic acids, and less lactic acids. So the result is more sour.
@@mlarry90 I’m apparently thinking of the very specific ways bakers refresh and “babysit” their pasta madre for panettone (in water, bound in cloth, etc.) rather than general refreshing. Thanks for your input.
I use stiff starter exclusively these days and prefer it precisely because it’s milder (not to mention better suited to hot temperatures). In fact it’s called a “sweet” starter in Michael Suas’ book.
technique question: do you ever use slap-and-fold kneading technique. I saw video with Lionel Poilane doing that, found that very moist doughs come together nicely.
Was there a difference is taste? Looks totally the same :) thank u :)
Did they taste the same? I thought the stiff starter would be a bit more sour tasting.
Amazing
Good comparison mate! Both very nice final results! Question, which % of increasing volume did u achieve?tnx 😊
What about the flavor? Less yeast more bacteria or vice versa?
How do they taste?????
My big problem is I've never been able to get my dough dry and fluffy like this. It always gets stuck onto my hands. What's the secret? I use a whole wheat/rye starter. Not much luck with white bread flour at all, as it won't ever rise sufficiently if I use it to feed my starter. It doesn't matter whether the starter is stiff or liquid. Why don't get that consistency? I try to lead a decent life.
his dough is actually very wet, check out his no more sticky dough and wet dough handling videos. long autolyse, wet hands, and practice are the keys.
the trick to a healthy starter is feed it when it's the most active (risen to it's peak) and feed a very high ratio. I have good results with ratios like 5g starter, 5g whole rye, 30g white bread flour, 35g water (1:7:7).
I so 💗 your videos... (The music, the trips through the woods...) ,and this time with Robin Hood flour!! Lol. You've got some good friends to ship you all those floors to play with!
What? I thought the reason to use a liquid starter was to get a less tangy sourdough. If so, then what was the point of this video?
Great results 👍. Your liquid starter is MUCH stiffer than my liquid starter?! Maybe I will try the 3-hour (rather than 30 minute ) autolyse.
Its probably because her liquid starter is what most would consider a 100% hydration starter. Your starter might be more liquid than flour.
I have more success in stiff starter, but there are so many other factors involved.
Any difference in taste?
Maybe you should've put the stiff starter in water to make same hydration first.
Great comparison :) Recently I've also been intrigued to try stiff starter but haven't done so yet.
Out of curiosity, you go for less time with steam in the oven than most other bakers, 10 minutes vs 15-25minutes. Why do you prefer the shorter time with steam, what effects do you think it has on the bread? Thanks!
Stiff starters take longer to become ready after a feed. The starter can be controlled by both stiffness and the temperature it is kept at. I like to keep mine in the fridge all of the time and give it a feed and put it in a proofing box at 24 deg. C (the magic temperature) 6 hours before need it. I use 100% Hydration. If when I give it that last feed I add water to make it 120% Hydration it will be ready in three hours and I simply subtract that water from the water to be added.
It's all about finding the pattern which works for you.
Pls make sourdough bread using a stand mixer
There are no differences. What you see is either shaping error or shaping differences. Also, you added water to the stiff starter dough, after the fact. This is called bassinage and it affects the crumb although you added very little water.
This guy romances his dough
Spelling mistake - Wich ???
Oh yes. thanks.
Ψωμάρες και οι δύο, μπράβο σου! Όπως ανάφεραν και οι άλλοι πιο κάτω, τα ψωμιά έχουν σημαντικά διαφορετική υγρασία. Εγώ υποπτεύομαι ότι στην ίδια υγρασία, το stiff starter θα είχε καλύτερα αποτελέσματα.
Just wondering, your various vids are from & for the deaf mute community? I've managed to get through 3 of them & no matter how pleasant the background music is, you will be sick of it after it's repeated umpteen times by the end of the vid...kinda like Chinese water torture.
Skull-numbing music! I turn the volume way down so I am spared of the torture.😂
Hairy arms! I thought
Great video!
Would love to see you speak instead of the captions