Mastering Your Sourdough Starter - A deep dive into Flavor and Acidity
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- With this video you will learn all you need to know about the flavor and acidity of your sourdough starter. We will closely look at different sourdough starters and their role in the fermentation of your bread.
We will look at the products produced during fermentation, mainly ethanol, CO2, lactic acid and acetic acid. Then we will deep dive into different sourdough starter types and compare their respective fermentation. Afterwards I will give you some tips on how you can bake with local flours.
Links:
Support me by buying me a pack of flour: thbrco.io/support-me
Get my starter: thbrco.io/my-starter
Purchase a pH meter to measure acidity of your dough: thbrco.io/ph-meter-advanced (affiliate link, I will earn some money in case you decide to buy it)
Also big shoutout to Jan-Pieter van den Wittenboer who helped me with the pH experiments!
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
0:24 The microorganisms
1:17 The fermentation
2:00 Different starter types
3:33 The fluffiest dough
5:50 Achieving a more sour bread
7:10 My preferred starter
#sourdoughstarter #sourdough - Навчання та стиль
This is very helpful, but I think I'm going to have to watch it about six times because it's early in my brain has not unfogged yet.🤣 Thank you very much for taking the time to make it!
My pleasure. Thanks for the idea Nancy 🤗
@@the_bread_code Seeing it broken down and the "why" helps me bake better bread. I think a lot of people mistake the the words "dairy notes" with a mild flavor. This is likely where some confusion occurs. Of course, sour cream, yogurt, and quark are all a bit sour. So there's that. 🤔
@@simplybeautifulsourdough8920 so the dairy notes of the liquid starter can be perceived as less sour. The acetic acid has a very strong flavor to it. Lactic acid is more mild.
@@the_bread_code Ah! So the dairy notes are an additional level of flavor, in addition to the sour?
@@simplybeautifulsourdough8920 Yes. A different kind of sour. Not so strong, more mild.
Thank you, Professor. I feel as if I am sitting in a lecture hall in a university of bread. I learned so much from your channel.😃
Possibly one of the sweetest guys - and smartest - on the internet.
This is probably the most helpful thing I have read about flavor influence! Thank you!
Outstanding! Content on sourdough starter is something I have never heard elsewhere before. Thanks from Australia.
Thank you for these instructions and guidelines, they are very helpful. I surely do appreciate your time and effort in your videos. Keep up with good work dude.
Wow! You are such a great teacher! I so enjoy the scientific explanation. Thanks for being an engineer.
I just named my first sourdough starter “Hendrik” 😁 Thank you for sharing all your experience with us!!! He is five weeks old now .🎉. Thank you Hendrik!
Your channel is amazing. I got really serious about sourdough a year and a half ago, but had a really hard time and gave up after a while. Your channel is giving me the confidence to try again. Thank you.
Sourdough literally ferments itself whether you stress or not
You’re the breadmatician!
I very much like the approach on this!
Thanks for your effort!
Thank you... Very helpful especially for a new sourdough bread lover.
Great video as usual. I for me, the takeaway is to make liquid to regular to stiff to get the sweet notes. That said, my starter has been loving California coolness! New bread making experience for me. But with the solid foundation that you and Kristin provided, I can adapt and make great bread.
Very informative and clear. Thank you.
Wow. This is superb. Once you get the mechanics of properties, you can play around however you like, really. If you don't get the principles, though, you are bound to stick to recipes and have no room ... for nothing really. Super helpful, Cheap German.
I converted a regular starter to stiff about a month ago and I find it is much easier to manage. I skipped the liquid starter step and went directly from a rye regular to white bread flour stiff. The bread doesn’t taste sour to me at all. It makes great bread. I took a piece with my on vacation in my checked luggage on an airplane. That evening I mixed a dough using my friends American AP flour that afternoon. Continued the bulk fermentation in the fridge over night and baked a beautiful bread the next evening for dinner. The stiff starter is so much more forgiving and easier to work with, except for the need to knead it.
Thank you Hendrik I have learned a tremendous amount from you on my year long sourdough journey.
PS. I have some sourdough pizza cold fermenting right now after feeding that starter one more time with the same unknown AP flour.
Wow...very interesting...i have seen so many variations in thickness of the starter and now I know why!! I use stiff version and it is very forgiving!
Thank you so much! This finally shed some light on the mystery why sometimes my bread is quite sour (we love it!) and why at other times I just cannot figure out why it ends up being so different. I guess it's due to my non-measure approach...I just mix it together without a lot of fuzz 😉 - THANK YOU!!
Thank you for making the flowcharts available.
You are a bread wizard.
I 'm totally new to sourdough, and I found already your you-tube channel very interesting. I watched and learned alot at this time! Not fully understand everything but it will come.... hopefully 😅🙈👌 so thank you, Hope to see much more new videos 🍀🌹💖
I moved from Canada to Spain last May and brought my starter and recipes with me. Sadly my starter died… RIP. For the last 10 months, my attempts at bread have ended up as pancakes. Flour? Water? Temperature? Relative Humidity? Sunburn? I experimented with all to no success.
However after creating a new starter with Spanish microbes and trying a stiff starter, I had my first success!
After downloading (and supporting ) your book and following your great channel, I’ve learned a few things:
1) I am spoiled coming from Canada with easily accesible, high gluten flours that can withstand the bacteria of a regular starter.
2) I was using bottled water but switched to tap water. Water in the Valencia region is extremely hard. So it probably raised the pH.
3) As you indicated, the stiff starter made a great open crumb even with the local Harina de Fuersa (bread flour). However there was no tangy flavour supporting your lesson.
4) Spanish microbes, like all things here, have a different rhythm of life. It is me that needs to adapt, not my starter!
My goal now is to slowly adjust the starter to find a good balance.
Thanks for all of your work. It is appreciated!
This was amazing. Science helps breaks it all down. #chemistry. Well done.
Guten Tag. After studying what you wrote about liquified starter and the post of the young woman researcher who tested the yeasts and bacteria prevalent in their lab. Since I make sourkraut, vinegar and yogurt I suspected that I had too much vinegar mixed in to my starter and it just didn’t work. Also, your information on using unbleached flour to routinely feed the starter was a great eye opener. My new starter is active and I’m baking with it today. Oh, also keeping a separate small jar to see the rise is genius. I use it for my yeast bakes too. No more under or overproofing. Happy New Year! Gutes Backen und Herzlicher Dank !
I couldn’t find a suggestion category in discord. But i was browsing through the fails/success and saw some beautiful scoring and was thinking it would be super cool if there was a section for decorative scoring where we could post our scores or discuss tips on how to score better. Just got on the discord channel tho. It is such a great community, i appreciate you making a positive constructive outlet for bakers around the world to discuss and share our adventures. As always thank you Hendrik!
Great idea. Thank you 🙏🏻
Awesome, thanks so much, I learned a lot from this. Also explains my sour starter. Thanks!
Thanks . These video is really helpfull to me , very clear expression
Great video. Was having trouble with pancakes, you just help solve it. Thanks!
Dude you are simply great! In Egypt we don't have high protein flours or bread flours AT ALL. My SD never has an open crumb. I just started a stiff starter. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Danke!!!
How did it go?
Very helpful! Thank you
I needed this today! Thank you my German friend :)
My pleasure 🙏🏻
Your videos are amazing! Mind blowing detail! Would you do a video on transferring from regular, to wet to stiff starters? (if already done, I apologies, still getting through the back log of vids!) thank you.
Das war jetzt mal wirklich erleuchtend. Vielen Dank
Sehr gerne!
Awesome video! I love this so much!😊✨
Thank you for sharing all this cool stuff!
Your custom starter sounds tasty thanks for the explanation
Very interesting video.
One question: for how many cycles would you recommend to go through to go from normal to fluid to stiff?
Thank you!
Much love from southern Alberta Canada
On loaf number 7, not great, knew This was my problem. Learning what to ask is definite improvement!
Great overview. Tnx
very informative thanks a lot
Great explanation!
Thank you! I want sour sourdough, so i am going to try the liquid! San francisco sourdough is my goal! Thank you!
V helpful! Thank you!!!
Thank you SO much!
I made a starter dough last night and it was already done in the morning! That’s extremely rare, I woke up and it was bubbly and over spilling, I did the float test and it was ready, I made a sourdough bread and it was great
This is very helpful. Yes, the strong gluten flour, in fact many good flour are very expensive in Asia, I've been trying to make a nice bread for over two years but never taste or look the same unless I'm using instant yeast. Until last month that I bought the French flour what is WAY more expensive, but the results is very satisfying. Now I'm trying many different bags of local flour to see which one have better gluten texture and this chart help me to understand why my dough is always sticky or very sour, some even taste like beer.
I live in SE Asia and my starter is super active by day 3 because of the warm climate. Always try to get the highest protein in flour. Perhaps try mixing in All Purpose flour? It helps to lessen the sourness and give bread a more mellow flavour but still a decent rise.
@@maboo736 thank you. It took me a while to try many different flour, and I noticed, the one that work better is more expensive. But at least I didn't waste the flour and times. And I'm also very happy.
😄 Great as always
Wow amazing video
You are a genius but unfortunately most people like me just can’t comprehend starting with regular starter,converting to a liquid starter then back to regular starter but maintaining the taste of the liquid starter ,so why change your starters and the lastly but always use the stiff starter even though the liquid will give you more sour notes only if you ferment longer. I know you are amazing and for scientific bakers the info is used but just regular home bakers can’t compute all this information so I feel very sad I still do not know any more about just how to bake a great loafof bread😞 I don’t have any idea what to do. But I do love you and appreciate you and all your research.
OMG, before you made this video I did the same with the starters: regular, to liquid and now to stiff, and everybody says my bread is awesome! Thank you for all your info. I love your videos.
how many times did you feed your starter in the liquid form before changing it to a stiff starter??
@@afonsoribeiro1002 I kept it liquid for about a month. Once the flavor had changed for good I changed it to stiff. I was looking for a mild flavor that would produce a very fluffy bread. Achieved.
@@cacherivera Nice gonna give it a try
@@cacherivera And the stiff starter will keep this diary mild flavor for good? why? how is this possible if you've changed the hydration?
Thanks a lot for this. I've watched it twice now and find it extremely interesting! You have become very quiet, I hope all is well?
So cool Bro. Keep it up. 😊
Nice explanation. One thing that would be interesting to overlap is the seed quantity- essentially the ratio of leftover to new flour amount combined with different water amounts. In my case I’m realizing that by maintaining the regular starter method for a few days I almost completely lose the acidity. I’m guessing the yeast outcompetes the bacteria and then nearly vice versa. Maintaining the balance over time is tricky.
Your videos are really so helpful, thanks for that. Okay, I'm almost there. After doing research, more clarity is starting to come into my head. I still have one question. Your ideal starter is when you go from a regular, to liquid, to a stiff starter. But how long do you ferment the liquid starter (with de regular starter out of the fridge) for before switching to a stiff starter?
amazing ,thx u very much
Great info. I just made a loaf that was too sour. Now I have tools to avoid that. Thanks!
I want more sour! Please tell me what flour you use and how you feed! Thanks
Thanks for the terrific breakdown! Before I saw your vid here, I was wrapping my head around A French dude who made a school for only natural levain bread. He was going deep into PH using a ph/thermometer to surveil dough. Interesting that we can observe bacterial or yeast activity to gain info on dough. I love this! Thanks again!
Thank you. That works too. Ph is individual and depends on your starter and flour composition 😎. If you are a true bread nerd it can be great 😂
How do I remember all this ?? 😅 great video though, I love this channel! This is my main bread channel I go to when I need some help with my bread baking.
Sorry! I know it's a bit much haha.
My first starter I made, would'n really start on day four, so I add two or three teaspoons of Stout Beer. Day five, it seems the starter liked beer, he starts to grow, and he gets a very nice flavor. After looking your video, I know now, it has to do more with the consistence too.
Hendrik, first of all, I love you 😍, watched all your videos and I love your humor, explanations and everything about your channel. I have a very mature, active and healthy starter I feed once in a while with organic rye, I took a little bit of it to make another starter with the aim to get a liquid starter, followed your formula but my starter ended up as water on top and starter at the bottom, is it a gradual process? Did I do something wrong? Thanks a lot 🙏🏻
Hello Hendrik, thank you for your channel. Just a reminder that you stated you would have another giveaway for your starter.
Great job! You’re amazing…may I ask you if you have any experience with preparing sourdough starter for Panettone recepie? Thanks
Great 👍🏼 video. 😮. There are so many UA-cam tutorials that use stiff starter & some liquid, it’s confusing because you don’t know the percentage of protein the flour is. Hummm🤔🤷♀️👍🏼❤️👍🏼
Amazing simple lecture for starter , I have a request , do you have and good description for quantities of starter for my bakery , we are in Middle East using factory yeast and I decide to change , thank you
The chart is very helpful. Would be interesting to have a similar chart for the liquid starter and the stiff starter.
Great idea 👍
Thank you so much! I just bought your ebook for Kindle! I was hoping to find some easy to reference recipes using your tips but could not. I still love the book but do have this question-if using the stiff starter, do I have to make any adjustments to the rest of a recipe to account for the lower hydration of the starter?
This is frickin' genius, Hendrik! Where did you learn this stuff? 🤪
Thanks.. as I don’t like to sour I will test a stiffstarter.
Vielen Dank!
Einen konkreten Zeitplan hätte ich mir noch gewünscht. Also: nach wie vielen Fütterungen wandle ich den normalen Starter in den Flüssigen um und wann in den festen?
Very interesting. Instead of jumping for a "type" of starter to another to get the lactic effet, I would have tried to change temperature to select between lactic and acidic microorganism. 20°-25°:acid / 35°: Lactic
Hi there from Kelowna BC Canada first of all thank-you for the detail and science on your channel . I have Been baking sourdough for two years noe since the Covid crisis. Can you give me the name brand of your ph tester ? Keep up the great work done on this channel.
Very interesting, will have to try the stiff starter as the best flour I can get is 11.5% here in 🇳🇦
Stiff starter will work great 👍
I'm new to your channel and want to say Thanks. Do you have a step-by-step video using the sour starter with baker's percentages? I love the sour taste. The more sour, the better. I brew Kombucha and have contemplated using some of the liquid to make a starter, since it can end up with high amounts of acetic acid the longer you let it ferment. My pH from my recent batch was 2.8 and was wondering if it might work as the water portion.
Vielen Dank fuer das Video. Aber waurm wird die fluessige Sauerteig saurer als das normale, wenn die fluessige das Wachsen von Accid bacteria hemmt?
I must go back and watch the cheap flour video. I’m going to try the stiff starter bread.
I really like your conclusions. To me is a question of Oxygen. Anerobic (alcohol) or Anerobic (Vinegar) and all in a High Protein (more than 12%) or low Protein (Less than 10%). So I always ask my self, how much vinegar (acidity) am I making.
Thank you for this video.
I starten my sourstarter 1 of februari.
Yesterday I mixed a thick starter, but it is very slow.
The 1-5-5 rices to more then double in 8 hours ,.. but the thick one took about 24 hours to reach double size and are still ricing.
What can you tell/read out about that ?
I have just separated my starter in 2, to test the liquid version. I think it is also becoming acid because I keep to much of it when I refresh, I recently discovered that only a teaspoon is enough . Let's see how this change will affect taste
Interesting. I have a type of Lievito Madre born out of my 1:2 rye starter, it works well, but it's a bit on the sour side. So watching and reading your blog it seems I should dump it, create a 1:5 starter from the rye starter, and after it smells yogurty convert it to a 2:1 stiffy. Did I got that correctly?
And what you use for the darker breads where you want the stronger note? The 1:5 starter?
I love your bread engineering and science, Hendrik. I live in hot and humid Singapore, where I experience humidity as high as 84% and temperatures as high as 35C. Should I follow your recipe but reduce the timing by 1/3 because the starter should be more active and energetic? I also have a fermentation fridge where the temperature is between 18C and 20C. How should I tweak your recipes for hot and humid Singapore? By the way, I am learning sourdough bread for an Austrian friend who will bunk at my place for 4 months...
I am use regular starter then. I keep my starter in the fridge and I feed it the evening before I bake. I take it out the morning of to let it proof. I add the starter to the bread flour and water mix and let that proof. I then add freshly milled rye and hydrated toasted seeds, mix and let it proof again. The results go into bread pans to rise in the fridge before baking. I am getting good rise and sour flavor. I've used the same steps for whole wheat, but I have become quite partial to seeded rye sour dough bread.
Unik information! Thanks! How long Time do your stiff starter take to peak comparing to your regular starter? My stiff starter taket a looong time to peak! :)
Yep. A looot. I just only go by nose. Once I notice it smells a bit sour, that's when I use it. Typically 8-16 hours after feeding. If it's towards the 16 hours, I use a bit less stiff starter for the main dough. If it's early, I use more.
I find that the liquid starter takes longer, even significantly longer, to rise a loaf; so is the more sour flavor coming from the starter or from the longer fermentation? If I use a small amount of regular (or even stiff) starter so that they all ferment for the same amount of time, will the flavor be the same? Also, I find that my liquid starter has a very strong smell, not even close to dairy. It would be great to have a way to test what kind of acid you get in a liquid starter, not just in theory, but by doing some chemical analysis in a lab to validate if you're really getting acetic or lactic acid. Thanks!
The most interresting and informative video yet. Now how do I use this information to my advantage? I have been using a 1:1 when feeding my starter, and after a while it started smelling like tutti-frutti. A mixture of apples and pears, maybe with a hint of apricot and banana. You said yours smell like dairy? does that mean cheese and sour-cream? I think I prefer tutti-frutti over that. The breads don't smell of tutti-frutti though, but have a very pleasant taste. I may try to convert to stiff, and jump over the fluid version, as no matter what, I can't find flour that behaves like the non-stick dough you manage to create. I'll try the fluid version for kicks and grins, but my flour quality dictates baking that version in a bread baking pan... even the regular 1:1 version becomes very soft, and doesn't create as much ovenspring as yours do.
Which one you recommend for pizza? I would like to 48 hours ferment the dough on cold temp, 10-13 Celsius.
When mixing starters to get the properties of all three, this would be like a three day prep to bake - normal to liquid, to normal, to stiff? Otherwise if you leave it in one form eventually the ratio would start to return to be the dominant trait of the three as time passed?
Thanks a lot for the very useful video. However, i'm confused by one point. The liquid starter has more dairy flavor, but at the same time has higher acidity? I thought that a higher acidity will lead to a vinegary note (sour) rather than a dairy note...am i missing something?
I'm curious about something: Has anyone tried using a precise but smaller mix of two starter types (stiff AND liquid) in their bread batch? So, less of each type but still totaling the overall "standard" amount of starter. Not sure how that might work -- but wondering if that would result in a more pronounced sour flavor (from liquid starter) but with the fluffy attributes of a stiff starter. Thoughts??
You must have read my mind. Was wondering about what water ratio meant to the taste of the breads.
Does the liquid starter have the same effect when using rye stater and whole meal flour for the dough? Does it bring sourness with dairy notes ?
I want bread that tastes more yeasty than sour but also use a sourdough starter instead of commercial yeast. Which started do you recommend
This was interesting, but I remember when you interviewed the gentleman from the sourdough library, he said that the stiff starter produced more of the sour flavor. The most that I got from this was that a stiff starter favored the yeast for rise.
I’m here also to ask this because I’ve read everywhere the stuff starter adds more sour flavor hope he chimes in here to help us
Was about to ask whether it could be a fun experiment to combine liquid and stiff starter in a dough to get a high yeast high lactic acid combo with less acetic acid bacteria, but I guess you somewhat achieve the same by turning your liquid starter into a stiff starter?
What if you mix the stiff and the wet after making the starter for the next loaf?
Gluten tag! Maybe a strange question but Do some bakers actually keep multiple type of starters and create a “blend” for a specific flavor/ type of bread?
I need help!!! I’m on day two of my starter first time doing it. 1 cup rye flour 1 cup water. after 24 hrs i discarded half and added 1c of flour n water again. Now 12 hrs later it’s risen out of the container. Is that good or bad? And is it ok I discarded some at that point, it was overflowing? The dough is super stretchy too
I was fighting to shape my dough yesterday but it kept falling like a slime. Gluten was disappeared. Now i know WHY😱🤬. THANK YOU.👏👏👏👏
Thanks for this very informative video. If you had to produce a naturally fermented bread that had a pH of 5.0 or higher, how would you do that? It sounds contrary to what sourdough is, so I wonder if it can be done.
Im decades away from even humbly considering myself knowledgable on sourdough, but my gut logic says you could get a super fermented starter going, then when it's time to make the bread, make it a super hydrated loaf (but prepare for those unique difficulties) so the starter allows it to ferment quickly enough for your needs, but the hyper saturation with the water balances out the pH
I already change my regular starter to liquid starter for 3days,but it still taste vinegary and sour i feed it twice in a day for 5g starter 30g bread flour 150g water .
Have any solve for my vinegary starter(it too sour break my sourdough gluten at all)
I have a question. My last sour dough starter which was a 50/50 became super sour and vinegary after a couple of months of use. So much so I ended up throwing it out. I have just started another one but wondering why did this change occur and it is possible to repair?
I hope you can help me. I watched your video twice and not grasping how to get a more sour loaf. I am using a regular starter (1:1:1) that is about a year old. I recently started feeding it every two weeks with 2/3 rye to 1/3 bread flour. I cannot get a sour flavor. Please tell me, in layman's terms, how to get a more sour sourdough. Thanks so much in advance.