The Valar are the equivalent of Arch angels and the maiar are angels. Manwë, the king of the Valar, held all birds dear to him and the eagles were basically his eyes in Middle Earth.
Why Elrond didn't kick Isildur in the balls and destroy the ring himself 3000 years earlier ? At some point you just have believe for the sake of enjoyment.
Also the fact that doing that would cause a huge rift between men and elves as the de facto leader of the elves in middle-earth would have committed regicide against the king of the numenoreans, which would just be begging for a cataclysmic war.
Alex Iachimciuc lol fair point most people are just like “why didn’t Elrond just push him in anyway” so i guess i just assumed. Still, it wouldn’t have been the best way to handle the situation, given Isildur was becoming madly in love with the ring and would probably look to diddle the fiddle of anyone who caused it harm
"Be careful, both of you. The enemy has many spies in his service - birds, beasts." -Gandalf (from the films) I'm sure the spies of Mordor or even Isengard (Saruman knew that the Eagles had already aided Gandalf in his escape of Orthanc) would have noticed an entire flock of Eagles flying so far from their homes in the Misty Mountains and would have reported the strange behavior to their respective masters. Plus, let's not overestimate the scope of the Fellowship's knowledge. While Gandalf was the wisest among them, even he couldn't have known the full extent of Sauron's capabilities or allies. The only certainty was that being known or even suspected by the enemy would be a very, very bad thing, and flying across Middle Earth, even partway, would have been about the best way, just short of calling up Sauron on a Palantir, to reveal the whole mission to him. This is why the Fellowship took on the guise of a band of unassuming travelers. It's easy for people to look back on stories like this with their narrative hindsight glasses on. But it's important to remember to put yourself in the shoes of the characters at the respective times in the story, and to take into account both their knowledge, or lack thereof. Gandalf didn't know what Sauron was capable of if he found out about the mission, but he did know that he had many spies throughout the land. Therefore, logically, the best way of ensuring the mission's success (which was Gandalf's entire purpose for being in Arda), was not to take any unnecessary risks and go as stealthily as possible. To take the Eagles anywhere near Mordor with the One Ring would have made absolutely no logical sense, narratively speaking. This is why this so called "plothole" is, to me, just something that separates true Tolkien fans from those who just happened to watch the films once or twice.
> Stealthiest as possible. Still are found by orcs and such at the end of the first movie and by luck the hobbits escape. Might as well have flewn the eagles...
@@marshmelows That just reinforces this point, though. That was the one time (save for the end) any enemy party had a read on the ring. It ended with one of the fellowship dead, and two of the Hobbits captured. And that was when only Sarumon knew where the ring was, god forbid if the Nazgul or Sauron himself caught the scent first.
they could've at least taken Frodo and Sam to Rivendell. And probably couldve taken them around High Pass and Moria and dropped them off in Lorien. Like damn these guys didn't help at all
The whole point of Lord of the Rings is to show that The Valar can't provide too much Aid to the free peoples without being fully involved themselves. the free peoples need to fend for themselves and they can't really do that if the Valar have to step in and help them every single time
I’d buy this argument if Sauron had been one of the free peoples but he’s a Maia. He’s like one of the Valar’s employees and he’s running around starting wars no one wanted. You’d think management would want to take responsibility but nope, they’ll let the guests pick up the tab. I mean really? The Valar would gamble the fate of Middle Earth on the .1% chance that some hobbits could sneak through the back door and destroy a supreme weapon of domination? Not cool.
jrojeck I agree, realistically Men wouldn’t have been able to stop Sauron if not for Frodo himself (who was also about to be corrupted in the end). I hate how the “Gods” just let their problems destroy the realms of Elves & Dwarfs in the first Ages. It was them who fell for Melkor lies believing him to be rehabilitated.
The point is that the free peoples have to be able to defeat Sauron with minimal aid from Valinor. They have to "grow up" so to speak. The creator of Babylon 5 said that the story arc of the show was directly stolen from this aspect of Lord of the Rings.
6- It's not really their problem. They are avatars of Manwe hinself, they don't really concern themselves with the affairs of mortals. With the exception of their protection of Gondolin, which was probably ordered by Manwe.
As someone who's daily work allows him to deal with Tolkien's world up to a certain degree and who is therefore very much interested in the interpretation of how Eä works it was a pleasure to hear your point of view, which is by far one of the most interesting ones. Really good work which brings you a like and a subscription. Really good job!
All of this and you fail to quote the Hobbit: The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. “They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,” he said, “for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right." You can apply the same logic from the eagles refusing to take the dwarves to Mirkwood to the eagles taking them to Mordor. The eagles always tend to strike when it works out best for themselves. Also, though they do carry the Ring in the Hobbit, they also didn't know it was near them. A mission to Mordor would require letting them in on purpose of the mission.
I think the Hobbit explanation is a good one. I think many reasons can be true at once. I think the valar-will answer is a good one. The Eye is another. The Will one makes sense because Illuvitar says while making the music something to the effect that Malkor and the other servants of darkness could not over come Illuvitar. I think the plan was always for Gollum to celebrate himself into the fires from whence it (the ring) came.
I think what George was trying to say was that the reason the Eagles didn't go to more doors because they would have been instantly killed just as the 82nd Airborne would have been instantly blacked out of the sky as they were descending to the Earth to complete the mission
Bradley Goo If killing Hitler would’ve ended everything as efficiently as Sauron and his forces, then they would have absolutely taken that chance and dropped the 82nd airborne.
The Silmarillion makes plain that the Eagles are the servants of Manwe. Manwe Sulimo does not directly intervene in the events of the Third Age at the command of Eru Illuvatar: we know this because even the Istari were bound within limited forms and to exercise limited power by Eru, despite being sent by the Valar. When Gandalf is sent back, he is granted the use of more of his power by Eru, but he is still not permitted to show forth his full power. As you have noted before, Gandalf is Olorin, the wisest of the Maiar and high in the councils of the Valar. The Eagles are therefore restricted from intervening save in limited ways, such as salvaging desperate battles and saving key persons. This is reinforced by the fact that when the Eagles intervene, Gandalf is always there. I believe that they were sent by Manwe to aid Gandalf in his need during the scope of the books; the aid that they rendered others was incidental to aiding Gandalf. I also surmise that Mandos advised Manwe on when their aid would be needed for Gandalf and his companions, but that is pure conjecture. Mandos sees the future better than any other of the Valar, and would know to what extent the Eagles need to act in order to minimize dependence upon them.
@xLttPx I think that it's more of a "help them to save themselves" situation. Gandalf could have directly opposed Sauron if he had his full power available, gathering the armies of the West and leading them to overthrow Sauron. If successful, though, it would risk deposing the Dark Lord by someone who could take the Ring and become another. Remember that Gandalf admitted that he was tempted by the Ring as well. Gandalf uncloaked, with the One Ring adding the power of Sauron to his own and the Eagles at his service, would have been a greater foe than even Sauron. That's why both the limits on his power and the limits on the service of the Eagles were imposed.
Perfectly put. Not until i read silmarillion did i totally.understood why gandalf didnt exhibit more power a d why eagles did solve everyones problems.
This is my favorite UA-cam channel, by far. I like how you not only have sound arguments backed by lore and quotes, but you always give a lesson to be learned at the end. Keep it up!
This has been the most interesting theory I ever heard of since the books/movies of the lord of the rings was made. That's the kind of topic I use to ask myself about too. Thank you so much for explaining it to me and everyone who has long been the fan to these stories!
Just gotta say thank you, I merely had to share this video to end a FB discussion, in your favor. Keep up the great work, even older videos have a resonating effect.
Keep it secret. Keep it safe. These words come to mind when I give my answer to this. With Saruman watching things for Sauron and Sauron himself. It was tricky already trying to keep the exact location of the ring secret the whole time. At any given moment I felt the Nazgul or other agents of Sauron and Saruman could have come to take the ring by force.
Yes, that's clearly it: the all-important stealth of the mission would have been lost. The eagles only help the Wise - their presence would have been a very visible signal to Sauron.
Ah yes, the highly effective and competent Sauron and his stalwart servants of dread! Aren't these the same people who failed at everything? The Lich King - Destroyer of Matresses, Servant of Some Dude who Makes Clouds!
@@politicallycorrectredskin796 Failing a task does not mean you're incompetant. There are several maths problems that have only been solved years later, there are also several maths problems that haven't been solved yet, but I wouldn't call those who attempted to solve them incompetent. Also at the battle of Pelenor Fields, Sauron's army was winning, he only lost because of an undead army.
"The answer is actually quite simple... we wouldnt have a good story." Always the view I have taken. Might as well go with the simple and straight-forward explanation but then again Ive never been much of a lore guy.
I noticed your exposition helicopter graphic. That was new I think. Good job. Again, middle earth travels on Sunday night are great. You do a great job.
I think most people who bring up this as a plot hole and I've heard this a lot. Most of these people in my experience have only watched the movies and not read the books or The Hobbit. I've always come to similar conclusions about this when you've read the books. Really like your videos! Keep up the good work. J.
It s quite obvious that the eagle plan would fail watching the movies alone. What a disaster would have been taking Frodo with the ring on mount doom without taking golum as well. Frodo s valor didn t destroy the ring, golum s greed did
The movie also makes it very clear that the eagles are not an option. They are shown outclassed and outnumbered by fellbeasts. They never carry people to their destinación and rather drop them off somewhere safe. I guess gandalf praying before being saved by an eagle does imply he has some control over them, but it's a lead from there to ask for the eagle masters to command the eagles on qhat need to be done. Also they look like eagles and that's not an animal you ride.
We know that Iluvatar, the One, has a plan for Arda, which is shown forth in the Ainulindale, but he also let each theme roll forth at will of the ainur. He says "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me", so he is quite present, though quite invisible in Arda. Normally, he'd let the choices of others roll on, but I think he would only intervene if whatever the case would utterly go against that plan (i.e. downfall of Numenor, Bilbo finding the RIng, the slip of Gollum). We read that Manwe understood best the will of Iluvatar, so he would probably act the same way when something isn't right, only intervening when the plan of the One was "threatened", and when the themes of Morgoth were prevailing, just like how both sang at the feet of the Throne in the beginning. Like Yoystan and Tolkien say, the Eagles were to be used sparingly. The people have to choose for themselves, but when the story begins to go rogue, then it will all fail (though Iluvatar would probably do something if the Ring was caught maybe bend the earth again, I don't know). SO, the Eagles could not fly the Ring over because 1) it was in Iluvatar's mind, and I don't think he wants to bend the earth again, 2) Manwe understands the free peoples have to choose for themselves, 3) Eagles only come when sent, because even Gandalf asked Gwaihir if he could ride him, thus showing that they're not just vehicles to drive, or horses to ride, and the obvious 4) Tolkien didn't write it that way... -_- Great video!! And still loving Galafee's music.
Very concise, and the angle on Manwe is the one i subscribe to the most as it puts the onus on the free peoples and as seen the interaction lead to yhe reconciliation between Elves and Dwarves as well as to legitimizing King Elessar via conquest. The journey was truly more important than the destination.
OHHHHH, A lot of people ask this question, I'm quite interested to see your take on it. Ive always thought it was an obvious answer. The mission is highly dependent on the secrecy of the quest. If they flew the eagles in not only would they been seen from many miles away, I suspect sauron wouldn't be keen on the birds and this he would send forward the nazugl, witch king (both on fell beasts or worse (if he could manage worse than fell beasts) ), bats, and legions of archers just to kill them. The eagles are a problem for him so I'm pretty sure he'd want to kill them just to cut them out of the picture. To add on top of that it's possible he may see the ring, he'd defiantly notice the birds and pay attention it's very likely in my opinion that he would see the ring as well as or with the help of the nazgul as well. This would add to his efforts to kill the birds. I very much doubt the birds would be keen on such a quest that would likely result in the death of them all. It's not their responsibility to deal with the ring and I much doubt that if they were asked that they would do this job for the free peoples of middle earth even if all the elven lords begged them. I've heard that at some point Tolkien even said he didn't have the birds fly the ring in because it would make for a boring story. That's just my take, thanks for reading. NOW ON WITH THE VIDEO! EDIT: Holy crap my opinion was very close to yours.
All of my reasons exactly. The Nazugl would attack them, the eagles would've had to defend themselves and the Fellowship would've fell to their deaths, never mind the eagles. What intrigued me more was in the Hobbit, there was no danger of approaching the Lonely Mountain but then, as Tolkien said, "that would make for a very boring story."
Fred Barker it's stated in the video that when Bilbo was being carried by them in the hobbit when he had the ring (no body knew he did) it didn't affect them so I doubt it. Because of what they are, being nasically messengers of the gods amongst other things i find it more likely that they are down right incorruptible
Rory Donaldson the best answer is 39 seconds in, really. In hindsight the quest is the best plan, but thinking about how it could have failed at dozens of points, on paper eagle drop is way better chances
I always thought this oversight made absolutely no sense. The Eagles, however, were able to fly to Mt Doom only after the Nazgul were destroyed. The Eagles would have been detected flying to Mordor. The journey was required to cultivate strength and understanding in order to ensure the ring was destroyed.
Damn Tolkein thought of everything when he wrote, and very self aware as a writer. What a guy. AND YOU ended it on the best moral lesson put into words for this thought.
Talion is a character far beyond that of the free peoples. He and Celibrimbor have power exceeding even many Nazgul put together and only second to the Witch King. I'm only part way through Shadow of War though. To others, I think the story of Talion is quite thourough and respectful to the IP (for a video game mechanism) and enjoy it immensly.
@@GabrielRoguljić The main character of the Middle-earth games Shadow of Mordor (not to be confused with the Shadows of Mordor Software Adventure text game from 1988) and Shadow of War.
In my fanfiction/retelling Lord of the Rigs, this question is brought up only to be shot down immediately because Lord Sturgeon(the Sauron counterpart) can throw lightning bolts.
The eye of Sauron would’ve seen them and sent nazgul on fel beasts to terrify the eagles and bring them down. The bigger plot hole is, why wouldn’t Sauron just barricade the entrance to mt doom?
@@marshmelows Even Frodo didn't throw the ring into the flame once he got there. It is impossible for anyone to be able to do it, the only reason it was destroyed was by the accident that occured with Frodo and Smeagol fighting over the ring
@@VeteranVandal That age old thing: the same music invoking different feelings in different beings and song lyrics meaning different things to different people. I don't doubt Eru snuck in a bonus track no one else heard. Maybe when Melkor was headbanging while throwing in completely unfitting death metal was the perfect distraction.
If I remember correctly at some point Gandalf says something like: eagles are free spirits and a proud race and you cannot simply use them as machines to fly wherever and whenever you want to. So, they come to help when they decide to, probably following Manwe's orders. Also, in my opinion Eagles are children of Iluvatar with a mind on their own, created by Manwe, like Dwarfs created by Aule and Ents created by Yavanna. The only race without a free will are Orcs and maybe Trolls.
I've always thought that whoever rode the eagle to "throw the ring into Mount Doom" may not have been able to do it, just like Frodo couldn't. It would have certainly meant the capture of the ring and the loss of the eagles, a one way trip to destruction.
I always just assumed that the Eagles were kind and benevolent beings and Gandalf did not want to take advantage of such graceful creatures. This made sense to me based off of how Gandalf treated other aspects of nature such as the Ents.
hi there. this is the point where i answer a 5 year old comment to point out that Gandalf sure took advantage of those graceful creatures, multiple times. And not just hobbits, the eagles too =)
But seriously had the eagles flown them closer to Mordor, the men of the West would have never been reunited. Theoden would still have been under Sarumons influence and the Rohirrim divided, the Ents would not have been rallied, Gollum would have not been able y to follow Frodo and fufill his ultimate role in the series. All of those things and more would not have come to pass. Gandalf would have never died in Moria, ect. Remember the goal was not only to get the Frodo to mt doom, as even if they did they could not have given him the will power to destroy it. Everything that happened needed to be done the way the was for the quest to have been completed. It wasn't just a matter of taking a shortcut.
While I've always been attached to the idea that the Ring could have been a corrupting influence on the Eagles had they known what they were carrying, I think it's pretty clear from the passages you cite in Morgoth's Ring that the Eagles' role as the Thought of Manwe makes it impossible to turn them against him, and Manwe's very nature makes him personally incorruptible. That said, having it might lead to them making a different decision regarding the right course of action, like keeping it high on some mountain or the like rather than risk its capture. Manwe's go-to strategy in dealing with Middle-Earth corruption is to call upon/trust Iluvatar, rather than try to fix things himself; he doesn't really have a great long-term record of success dealing with it when he's tried (like Morgoth fooling everyone into thinking he "recovered"), so I'm sure Manwe and his agents were more than ready to let someone else try. Your very important observation that Gollum was the ultimate key to the Ring's destruction highlights the wisdom of the Eagles' (and by extension Manwe's) restraint. I do think the Eagles' participation in the Battle of Five Armies shows that it isn't impossible for them to directly intervene in purely Middle-Earth affairs. The Ring just wasn't something they were suited to help with. One last thing: your comment about Sauron's palantir now has me wondering if Sauron didn't shoot himself in the foot by somehow crafting the Ring to shield itself from discovery by the palantiri, when he couldn't have foreseen a day when he'd have a working palantir but not the Ring. Fantastic series. So very happy you're doing these.
Maybe they were similar to The ents that really didn't want to get involved, however perhaps Radaghast was the one talking them into helping during the events of the ring.
Simple answer : They would be seen. The whole idea was a stealth mission. Sneak into Mordor and destroy the ring at the only place it can be unmade. Had they flown there, all of Sauron's army would be waiting for them and the crack of doom would be guarded by all nine of the Nazgul and Sauron himself.
Thanks for the Jokes the Message in your video Mellon, you brightest the minds of the Tolkien in me every week... Thank You!!! I hear people go on and on about, "Why couldn't they just fly the ring to Mordor?" And You just answer that question very well thank you, Mellon!!! Thanks for the Shout Out and Discussion Video Mellon, Until Riverdale's Spotlight...Marion Baggions Out
Stars, an ocean breeze, and the sound of the surf makes watching the newest video this week even better. Where I am isn't Middle Earth or the Shire, but it is pretty awesome. Until next week, take care Mellon.
First off, the Eagles don't generally like to intervene in this sort of thing. Second, the airspace around Mordor is likely patrolled by fell beasts and all sorts of other evil creatures.
Not to mention, Elrond makes it very clear that Sauron's eye is locked onto Rivendell, which, need I remind everyone who has read Tolkien's Legendarium or looked at a map of Middle Earth is THOUSANDS of miles from Mordor. Chances are, the moment he spotted an entire invasion flock of Eagles spear-headed by Gwaihir, he would immediately begin beefing up his defenses.
I know this was written a long time ago, but do you not think eagles can fly somewhat faster than a medieval-equivalent power is able to "beef up its defenses"?
The only First hand account i can find explaining why, they didnt use the eagles, is Tolkien saying, "shut up". Thats all. Its almost like he didnt think about it.
Anyone know where I can download a wallpaper of that picture at 2:55 ish? It’s been used as posters back in the original release of the movies too. Never had luck finding it.
I think it comes down to Ying and Yang. Nature has a way of balancing itself and if you present some sort of unbalanced power then evil will be given something of equal power...
Ahhh another great video as always yoystan! Now I must give my request for a video. What if samwise Gangee didn’t go with Frodo to destroy the ring. I would love to see your opinion on this as geek zone and myself have done a video on this topic. But alas, keep up the good work ❤️
What if Fram was killed by Scatha? What if Smaug survived the events of the Hobbit? What if Elrod took the Ring? What if Tar-Miriel had become qceen of Numenor instead of Ar-Farazon? What if king Earnur was not killed by the witch-King? What if Saruman was not a traitor? What if Smaug took the Ring? What if Durin's Bane took the Ring? What if Glaurung killed Turin? What if the battle of Un-numbered tears never took place? (sorry for my bad spelling)
Fram killed by Scatha, oh damn that would be...interesting (no conflict of Dwarves with Northmen, also ancestors of Rohirrim kings would not be so rich, some of that treasure hoard was later in treasury of Meduseld), especially since due to the butterfly effect, the silver horn that centuries later Merry would receive from Eomer and Eowyn would possibly not fall into his hands in this scenario, then and it's a pure theory but still, the 'magical' effects of that horn blow would not rouse the Hobbits of Bywater to fight still there could have been other ways, but Merry when he blew the horn called out many hobbits strengthening their resolve. A minor thing but who knows? That horn of dwarf-make had peculiar effect on people, Sam when he heard it riding to Rosie and mrs. Cotton felt overwhelming urge to turn back and heed the call, pretty neat little trick :). I wonder whether this is another example of dwarven magic in their crafted objects? There's so little examples of dwarven magic that it sometimes appears to be ambiguous whether they have magic at all :)...but the magic dwarf-gates, objects such as dragon-helm of Dor-lómin etc. pretty much show they are capable of crafting magical objects and artifacts.
@@Alizudo They are temped by gold generaly, and they got their magic rings from Sauron too. And the One Ring was more powerful than the dwarven rings. So I think that it was possible to create a dark lord from Thorin :) Actualy I remember q. good dark fanfic in which Thorin is a dark lord with the One Ring and Bilbo is his prisoner and all hobbits are his slaves, working in the mines - "The king under the Mountain" by Zara Hemla.
Thank you for the information! Whenever a friend or family member asked me why, I found it best to reply with the question, "The next time your computer has trouble, why not call up Bill Gates and ask him to troubleshoot it for you?" This response has been met with a myriad of reactions, but it seemed the simplest way to deal with the issue at hand. While I'll still most likely keep that in my holster for those who aren't big fans of Tolkien, I appreciate your explanations in this video for a more proper analysis.
I know this is a 3 years old comment, but I find that your analogy fails, Big Bad Evil Sauron is a bigger deal than a simple computer trouble. Now, a better analogy would be "why did God (Christian) need Jesus to die to forgive humans' sins, why not simply just forgive them?"
The eagles had their own business to attend to, and shockingly, they didn't care about the fellowship or their quest unless it directly affected their lives. As evidenced by Gwaihars reluctance to carry Gandalf away from orthanc " i came to bear tidings, not burdens". He fulfilled the role of messenger but didn't want to involve himself further.
My only disagreement is from the argument about how the eagles wanted to steer clear of the One Ring. Yes, they carried Bilbo, but for one, they had no idea what he was carrying. For 2, the Ring was more or less “sleeping” when they carried Bilbo, and wasn’t trying nearly as hard to fall into enemy hands. If they’d asked the eagles to carry Frodo, of course they would have also had to tell them why, and perhaps they wouldn’t do it, especially with the more active ring trying desperately to corrupt everyone around it. Although, I’ll also admit that I’m not sure even the One Ring could stretch itself to be able to fit around an Eagles toe. Maybe you could do another video about speculating what would happen if the eagles had gotten the Ring? I’d pay to watch that, Lol
Good luck entering mount doom after Sauron is made aware of the eagles coming with the ring. All the nazguls and all the orcs of mordor would just camp it.
there's a decent idea as to why they couldn't do it. The Eagles are a great intelligent mystical race on Middle Earth. Like the Elves they're very powerful in the world. Think of an Eagle who gains possession of the One Ring and is corrupted by it.
Sauron didn't fear the ring was being taken to Mordor and thrown into the fire but rather they would leave Rivendell and take the ring to the wars of Minus Tirith. Thats why Rivendell was being watched by millions of birds called, " Crebain." If you remember correctly the nine walkers lost an entire day trying to avoid being spotted by endless flocks of Crebain. The point is if they had left Rivendell on the backs of Eagles, Sauron was ready for them with his own airforce. Also, by this time, Sauron had grown so powerful that not only did he control the skies but also the weather and could also hurl snow at the Eagles all the way from Mordor.
One thing I’ve been wondering for a while- what if pippin hadn’t made all that noise in Moria? What if they made it out undetected with Gandalf still alive?
The answer is in the end. Without Golum there can be no destruction of the ring. Frodo could only take it to mount doom and he was also the one to take golum with him. Gandalf knows this and he tells us in Moria. It s a magnificent plot
I believe your position is accurate. In the LOTR, I think the eagles are limited in their ability to intervene in the affairs of Middle Earth, and make decisions. I do think that this is different in the Hobbit, where the eagles soar the be sentient beings.
You refer a lot of things but the main reason was that the journey was key to the end result. I mean, the ring had to be dropped on the volcano thus the journey was essential to allow Frodo to grow and become able to do the task. The journey is more important than the destination.
@@ArchetypeGotoh english is not my language but my dictionary does not agree with you, also in the context of that scene everyone understood that the "fleeing" is implied, but maybe the actual word for "flying" was meant how it was said...literally....that is why I say: good catch...
Your dictionary is likely not the one Tolkien used, neither is it likely to be old English, as words change meaning over time. The dictionary also recognizes “ain’t” and it thinks “they” can be a singular pronoun in 2019, so the dictionary is hardly a valid authority. Besides, none of them have wings, to suggest “literally flying” at that point is impossible and absurd.
I think what you said at the end was a very Tolkien thing. Tolkien's story is very much against doing things the quick and easy way. As seen in the story of the creation of the Dwarves for example or in Treebeard and the Ents who are all "Let's not be hasty". Also, another typical response is that the Eagles would take offence to merely being called upon as Taxis as they are a proudful people and only listens to Gandalf because he has a special relationship with them. The Hobbit explains the Eagles reasoning very well Really good video. Expect me to link it whenever I see people bring up "But muh Eagles!"
When the EAgles carried Bilbo no one knew that he had the One Ring, so unless they had some kind of intuitive sense of the power of the ring in Bilbo's pocket they the Eagle King could not have been tempted. If he could sense the power of the ring, why would he not relay that information to Gandalf or Saruman? Along with the other good reasons you've discussed here, I had always thought that if Gandalf could be corrupted by the ring, then very likely a Great Eagle could also. And then there is the statement that Gandalf says to Frodo--that he thinks that Bilbo's finding of the ring was not an accident, that he was meant to to find it and that Frodo was meant to bear it, and that "other forces" than Sauron were behind these actions. If Frodo's "bearing" of the ring means that all he is doing is holding on to it while the Eagles cart him off to Mount Doom, then anyone could have been the Ringbearer. Frodo has to bear the ring because this amazing deed can only be accomplished by an innocent who has no desire for power, and so is able to resist the strength of the ring's influence. Just my own opinion, of course.
I love all these. Keep them coming. The Eagles were a bit like Ents imo. They would fight when it was beneficial to do so and they were probably not kind to the farmers of Middle Earth. I have always wondered why didn't the forgotten ring bearer Tom Bombadil just sing the ring to Mount Doom? Maybe it's a stupid question.
Easy to remember summary of arguments against the "plot hole" 1. It's risky, one mistake could bring the ring to Sauron 2. It's too easy to notice 3. They are not allowed by Manwe to intervene because they are direct servents of his will with no fea (therefore no free will)
![The History of Morgoth [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ktet64d9O-c/mqdefault.jpg)
Even before watching the video I already know the answer.
They were too busy recording their hit "Hotel California"
underrated af
CARLOS
LMAO
Priorities.
@Mitch Rymes No, the guy's comment was underrated, when i posted the response it had only a few likes but i thought it was really funny.
as Tokien being a Catholic, i believe treated them as angels and only involved themselves when truely needed
Dale Pride but that’s not the case
Even the eagles couldn't bare the weight of the fat filthy little hobbitses that far.
The Valar are the equivalent of Arch angels and the maiar are angels. Manwë, the king of the Valar, held all birds dear to him and the eagles were basically his eyes in Middle Earth.
This was something truly needed.
Then what are the Ainar?
Why Elrond didn't kick Isildur in the balls and destroy the ring himself 3000 years earlier ? At some point you just have believe for the sake of enjoyment.
Isildur never went in mount doom in the books though
Also the fact that doing that would cause a huge rift between men and elves as the de facto leader of the elves in middle-earth would have committed regicide against the king of the numenoreans, which would just be begging for a cataclysmic war.
@@thinkwithurdipstick HOLD ON! what regicide? Just a hit to the balls! Beside that Elrond was like.... great great great ...great uncle to Isildur!
Alex Iachimciuc lol fair point most people are just like “why didn’t Elrond just push him in anyway” so i guess i just assumed. Still, it wouldn’t have been the best way to handle the situation, given Isildur was becoming madly in love with the ring and would probably look to diddle the fiddle of anyone who caused it harm
@@thinkwithurdipstick 😃 Question: if Elrond is half elf why does he have two elf ears? Normally one of thoes ears must look like this 👂 😱
"Be careful, both of you. The enemy has many spies in his service - birds, beasts." -Gandalf (from the films)
I'm sure the spies of Mordor or even Isengard (Saruman knew that the Eagles had already aided Gandalf in his escape of Orthanc) would have noticed an entire flock of Eagles flying so far from their homes in the Misty Mountains and would have reported the strange behavior to their respective masters.
Plus, let's not overestimate the scope of the Fellowship's knowledge. While Gandalf was the wisest among them, even he couldn't have known the full extent of Sauron's capabilities or allies. The only certainty was that being known or even suspected by the enemy would be a very, very bad thing, and flying across Middle Earth, even partway, would have been about the best way, just short of calling up Sauron on a Palantir, to reveal the whole mission to him. This is why the Fellowship took on the guise of a band of unassuming travelers.
It's easy for people to look back on stories like this with their narrative hindsight glasses on. But it's important to remember to put yourself in the shoes of the characters at the respective times in the story, and to take into account both their knowledge, or lack thereof.
Gandalf didn't know what Sauron was capable of if he found out about the mission, but he did know that he had many spies throughout the land. Therefore, logically, the best way of ensuring the mission's success (which was Gandalf's entire purpose for being in Arda), was not to take any unnecessary risks and go as stealthily as possible. To take the Eagles anywhere near Mordor with the One Ring would have made absolutely no logical sense, narratively speaking.
This is why this so called "plothole" is, to me, just something that separates true Tolkien fans from those who just happened to watch the films once or twice.
Nostalgia Critic?
well said
> Stealthiest as possible.
Still are found by orcs and such at the end of the first movie and by luck the hobbits escape. Might as well have flewn the eagles...
@@marshmelows That just reinforces this point, though. That was the one time (save for the end) any enemy party had a read on the ring. It ended with one of the fellowship dead, and two of the Hobbits captured. And that was when only Sarumon knew where the ring was, god forbid if the Nazgul or Sauron himself caught the scent first.
they could've at least taken Frodo and Sam to Rivendell. And probably couldve taken them around High Pass and Moria and dropped them off in Lorien. Like damn these guys didn't help at all
The whole point of Lord of the Rings is to show that The Valar can't provide too much Aid to the free peoples without being fully involved themselves. the free peoples need to fend for themselves and they can't really do that if the Valar have to step in and help them every single time
this ^
I’d buy this argument if Sauron had been one of the free peoples but he’s a Maia. He’s like one of the Valar’s employees and he’s running around starting wars no one wanted. You’d think management would want to take responsibility but nope, they’ll let the guests pick up the tab. I mean really? The Valar would gamble the fate of Middle Earth on the .1% chance that some hobbits could sneak through the back door and destroy a supreme weapon of domination? Not cool.
And the Valar whole have destroyed Gondor of they had assisted.
jrojeck I agree, realistically Men wouldn’t have been able to stop Sauron if not for Frodo himself (who was also about to be corrupted in the end). I hate how the “Gods” just let their problems destroy the realms of Elves & Dwarfs in the first Ages. It was them who fell for Melkor lies believing him to be rehabilitated.
The point is that the free peoples have to be able to defeat Sauron with minimal aid from Valinor. They have to "grow up" so to speak.
The creator of Babylon 5 said that the story arc of the show was directly stolen from this aspect of Lord of the Rings.
I love how you always incorporate whatever the topic is into a life lesson.
1-nazgul
2-fellbest
3-corruption
4-sauron
5-have to be a secret mision
6- It's not really their problem. They are avatars of Manwe hinself, they don't really concern themselves with the affairs of mortals. With the exception of their protection of Gondolin, which was probably ordered by Manwe.
angelo bellizzi fell *beast. But yeah.
angelo bellizzi true
7-no Gollum/Smeagol
BlasterSW MW How was he a reason?
As someone who's daily work allows him to deal with Tolkien's world up to a certain degree and who is therefore very much interested in the interpretation of how Eä works it was a pleasure to hear your point of view, which is by far one of the most interesting ones. Really good work which brings you a like and a subscription. Really good job!
All of this and you fail to quote the Hobbit: The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. “They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,” he said, “for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right." You can apply the same logic from the eagles refusing to take the dwarves to Mirkwood to the eagles taking them to Mordor. The eagles always tend to strike when it works out best for themselves.
Also, though they do carry the Ring in the Hobbit, they also didn't know it was near them. A mission to Mordor would require letting them in on purpose of the mission.
This is literally the only answer that’s even decent and it isn’t even mentioned lol
Well done. The question is answered best with your post.
Yet they got involved in BOTH the Hobbit and LOTR in the final battles...
Clap clap clap!! Well said!!!
I think the Hobbit explanation is a good one. I think many reasons can be true at once. I think the valar-will answer is a good one. The Eye is another.
The Will one makes sense because Illuvitar says while making the music something to the effect that Malkor and the other servants of darkness could not over come Illuvitar. I think the plan was always for Gollum to celebrate himself into the fires from whence it (the ring) came.
Why didn't the US drop the 82 airborne on Berlin in 1943? Same reason.
It's kinda the same
@@jc.8112 it's all speculation.. *KINDA* the same...
I think what George was trying to say was that the reason the Eagles didn't go to more doors because they would have been instantly killed just as the 82nd Airborne would have been instantly blacked out of the sky as they were descending to the Earth to complete the mission
Bradley Goo If killing Hitler would’ve ended everything as efficiently as Sauron and his forces, then they would have absolutely taken that chance and dropped the 82nd airborne.
(┛ಠ_ಠ)┛彡┻━┻
The Silmarillion makes plain that the Eagles are the servants of Manwe. Manwe Sulimo does not directly intervene in the events of the Third Age at the command of Eru Illuvatar: we know this because even the Istari were bound within limited forms and to exercise limited power by Eru, despite being sent by the Valar. When Gandalf is sent back, he is granted the use of more of his power by Eru, but he is still not permitted to show forth his full power. As you have noted before, Gandalf is Olorin, the wisest of the Maiar and high in the councils of the Valar. The Eagles are therefore restricted from intervening save in limited ways, such as salvaging desperate battles and saving key persons. This is reinforced by the fact that when the Eagles intervene, Gandalf is always there. I believe that they were sent by Manwe to aid Gandalf in his need during the scope of the books; the aid that they rendered others was incidental to aiding Gandalf. I also surmise that Mandos advised Manwe on when their aid would be needed for Gandalf and his companions, but that is pure conjecture. Mandos sees the future better than any other of the Valar, and would know to what extent the Eagles need to act in order to minimize dependence upon them.
So much explanation. The Eagles are simply "deus ex machina"
@xLttPx I think that it's more of a "help them to save themselves" situation. Gandalf could have directly opposed Sauron if he had his full power available, gathering the armies of the West and leading them to overthrow Sauron. If successful, though, it would risk deposing the Dark Lord by someone who could take the Ring and become another. Remember that Gandalf admitted that he was tempted by the Ring as well. Gandalf uncloaked, with the One Ring adding the power of Sauron to his own and the Eagles at his service, would have been a greater foe than even Sauron. That's why both the limits on his power and the limits on the service of the Eagles were imposed.
Perfectly put. Not until i read silmarillion did i totally.understood why gandalf didnt exhibit more power a d why eagles did solve everyones problems.
That's a wonderful and true to form explanation.
👍🏻
This is my favorite UA-cam channel, by far. I like how you not only have sound arguments backed by lore and quotes, but you always give a lesson to be learned at the end. Keep it up!
This has been the most interesting theory I ever heard of since the books/movies of the lord of the rings was made. That's the kind of topic I use to ask myself about too. Thank you so much for explaining it to me and everyone who has long been the fan to these stories!
The last point about Gollum is the most important. That sold me. Your channel is seriously great too though, till the next video
Hoohohoohohoho boy. Been waiting for this
Jojo reference
Just gotta say thank you, I merely had to share this video to end a FB discussion, in your favor. Keep up the great work, even older videos have a resonating effect.
Not with ten thousand men could you do this it is folly
ΕΣΣΕΤΑΙ ΗΜΑΡ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
But maybe with Two Hobbits
ΕΣΣΕΤΑΙ ΗΜΑΡ Throw in Sam's Old Gaffer and I will take the Hobbits.
Only with the combined might of two hobbit people can this be done. Apparently
@@noodles8231 Sam vs. Frodo - who would win?
I love how you explain things and that you are always super kind. Good job man
Another 10/10 video. You balance fact, opinion and conjecture so well!
Keep it secret. Keep it safe. These words come to mind when I give my answer to this. With Saruman watching things for Sauron and Sauron himself. It was tricky already trying to keep the exact location of the ring secret the whole time. At any given moment I felt the Nazgul or other agents of Sauron and Saruman could have come to take the ring by force.
Yes, that's clearly it: the all-important stealth of the mission would have been lost. The eagles only help the Wise - their presence would have been a very visible signal to Sauron.
Ah yes, the highly effective and competent Sauron and his stalwart servants of dread! Aren't these the same people who failed at everything? The Lich King - Destroyer of Matresses, Servant of Some Dude who Makes Clouds!
@@politicallycorrectredskin796 Failing a task does not mean you're incompetant. There are several maths problems that have only been solved years later, there are also several maths problems that haven't been solved yet, but I wouldn't call those who attempted to solve them incompetent. Also at the battle of Pelenor Fields, Sauron's army was winning, he only lost because of an undead army.
"The answer is actually quite simple... we wouldnt have a good story."
Always the view I have taken. Might as well go with the simple and straight-forward explanation but then again Ive never been much of a lore guy.
I noticed your exposition helicopter graphic. That was new I think. Good job. Again, middle earth travels on Sunday night are great. You do a great job.
I think most people who bring up this as a plot hole and I've heard this a lot. Most of these people in my experience have only watched the movies and not read the books or The Hobbit. I've always come to similar conclusions about this when you've read the books. Really like your videos! Keep up the good work. J.
It s quite obvious that the eagle plan would fail watching the movies alone. What a disaster would have been taking Frodo with the ring on mount doom without taking golum as well. Frodo s valor didn t destroy the ring, golum s greed did
@@arisps17 hi there, you are aware right that Gollum was also not part of the original plan? This argument seems strange to me
The movie also makes it very clear that the eagles are not an option. They are shown outclassed and outnumbered by fellbeasts. They never carry people to their destinación and rather drop them off somewhere safe. I guess gandalf praying before being saved by an eagle does imply he has some control over them, but it's a lead from there to ask for the eagle masters to command the eagles on qhat need to be done. Also they look like eagles and that's not an animal you ride.
We know that Iluvatar, the One, has a plan for Arda, which is shown forth in the Ainulindale, but he also let each theme roll forth at will of the ainur. He says "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me", so he is quite present, though quite invisible in Arda. Normally, he'd let the choices of others roll on, but I think he would only intervene if whatever the case would utterly go against that plan (i.e. downfall of Numenor, Bilbo finding the RIng, the slip of Gollum).
We read that Manwe understood best the will of Iluvatar, so he would probably act the same way when something isn't right, only intervening when the plan of the One was "threatened", and when the themes of Morgoth were prevailing, just like how both sang at the feet of the Throne in the beginning. Like Yoystan and Tolkien say, the Eagles were to be used sparingly. The people have to choose for themselves, but when the story begins to go rogue, then it will all fail (though Iluvatar would probably do something if the Ring was caught maybe bend the earth again, I don't know).
SO, the Eagles could not fly the Ring over because 1) it was in Iluvatar's mind, and I don't think he wants to bend the earth again, 2) Manwe understands the free peoples have to choose for themselves, 3) Eagles only come when sent, because even Gandalf asked Gwaihir if he could ride him, thus showing that they're not just vehicles to drive, or horses to ride, and the obvious 4) Tolkien didn't write it that way... -_-
Great video!! And still loving Galafee's music.
Very concise, and the angle on Manwe is the one i subscribe to the most as it puts the onus on the free peoples and as seen the interaction lead to yhe reconciliation between Elves and Dwarves as well as to legitimizing King Elessar via conquest. The journey was truly more important than the destination.
OHHHHH, A lot of people ask this question, I'm quite interested to see your take on it. Ive always thought it was an obvious answer.
The mission is highly dependent on the secrecy of the quest. If they flew the eagles in not only would they been seen from many miles away, I suspect sauron wouldn't be keen on the birds and this he would send forward the nazugl, witch king (both on fell beasts or worse (if he could manage worse than fell beasts) ), bats, and legions of archers just to kill them. The eagles are a problem for him so I'm pretty sure he'd want to kill them just to cut them out of the picture. To add on top of that it's possible he may see the ring, he'd defiantly notice the birds and pay attention it's very likely in my opinion that he would see the ring as well as or with the help of the nazgul as well. This would add to his efforts to kill the birds.
I very much doubt the birds would be keen on such a quest that would likely result in the death of them all. It's not their responsibility to deal with the ring and I much doubt that if they were asked that they would do this job for the free peoples of middle earth even if all the elven lords begged them.
I've heard that at some point Tolkien even said he didn't have the birds fly the ring in because it would make for a boring story.
That's just my take, thanks for reading. NOW ON WITH THE VIDEO!
EDIT: Holy crap my opinion was very close to yours.
All of my reasons exactly. The Nazugl would attack them, the eagles would've had to defend themselves and the Fellowship would've fell to their deaths, never mind the eagles.
What intrigued me more was in the Hobbit, there was no danger of approaching the Lonely Mountain but then, as Tolkien said, "that would make for a very boring story."
Rory Donaldson could another factor be that the eagles may be corrupted by the ring and try and take it.
Fred Barker it's stated in the video that when Bilbo was being carried by them in the hobbit when he had the ring (no body knew he did) it didn't affect them so I doubt it. Because of what they are, being nasically messengers of the gods amongst other things i find it more likely that they are down right incorruptible
Rory Donaldson the best answer is 39 seconds in, really. In hindsight the quest is the best plan, but thinking about how it could have failed at dozens of points, on paper eagle drop is way better chances
Glad I read the comment section first. Much faster than watching a video. Still gave the video a like though.
I always thought this oversight made absolutely no sense. The Eagles, however, were able to fly to Mt Doom only after the Nazgul were destroyed. The Eagles would have been detected flying to Mordor. The journey was required to cultivate strength and understanding in order to ensure the ring was destroyed.
0:35 Simple and straight to the point, lol! That'd have been the shortest video explanation xD Great vid! (:
But, Gandalf said "Fly, you fools"
Old Enlgish, meaning with great haste or speed.
@@MrZenwise yeah I understood that, Tolkien wrote it in like 20th century or 19th English was different then
@@omkargaykar1378 I am sorry I took your reply too literally there! Gandalf did say fly xD
@@MrZenwise nah it's ok
Please do the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in detail!
Yessssssss
Hell yeah !!
Nirnaeth Arnoediad!!
1 tear at a time 😂😂
How about a what if the nirnaeth arnoediad was won
As always, I could listen to your narration all day. Congrats on 100K!!
Thank-you Mellon. Another great video.
The Eagles would have been shot out of the air ...remember the King Eagle was gravely wounded by a poisoned arrow and was healed by Gandalf
Maximum range of crossbow or longbow is about 400-500 feet. Eagles can fly 1000’s of feet above ground
You need a military aware person to figure that one out...even though is right in the story.
@@einarabelc5 I guess you didn't know Tolkien was a veteran of WWI.
There were fell beasts that could certainly reach them though and they'd have to land at some point.
he was wounded because he is a wimp that only fights baby bunnies
Can you do a video on the marsh of the dead? I'm reading two towers and want to know
Yes, follow the lights!
Damn Tolkein thought of everything when he wrote, and very self aware as a writer. What a guy.
AND YOU ended it on the best moral lesson put into words for this thought.
Boromir: One does not simply walk into Mordor
Talion: You were saying?
He had the power of fanfiction, mind you.
Whos Talion?
@nikolai bahtin bruh
Talion is a character far beyond that of the free peoples. He and Celibrimbor have power exceeding even many Nazgul put together and only second to the Witch King. I'm only part way through Shadow of War though. To others, I think the story of Talion is quite thourough and respectful to the IP (for a video game mechanism) and enjoy it immensly.
@@GabrielRoguljić The main character of the Middle-earth games Shadow of Mordor (not to be confused with the Shadows of Mordor Software Adventure text game from 1988) and Shadow of War.
In my fanfiction/retelling Lord of the Rigs, this question is brought up only to be shot down immediately because Lord Sturgeon(the Sauron counterpart) can throw lightning bolts.
I always talk about this with my friends but we never come to an agreement
I never clicked on Subscribe faster. You are a legend my man!
The eye of Sauron would’ve seen them and sent nazgul on fel beasts to terrify the eagles and bring them down.
The bigger plot hole is, why wouldn’t Sauron just barricade the entrance to mt doom?
Because Sauron is by construction unable to imagine someone else would want to destroy the ring.
@@clementdenis4212 Couldn't the eye of Sauron see that? Couldn0t he take measures against it?
@@marshmelows Even Frodo didn't throw the ring into the flame once he got there. It is impossible for anyone to be able to do it, the only reason it was destroyed was by the accident that occured with Frodo and Smeagol fighting over the ring
Why do it, I anyone but the Valar would be tempted by it.
Sauron didn't count on Eru's being clever af in his song themes.
@@VeteranVandal That age old thing: the same music invoking different feelings in different beings and song lyrics meaning different things to different people. I don't doubt Eru snuck in a bonus track no one else heard. Maybe when Melkor was headbanging while throwing in completely unfitting death metal was the perfect distraction.
If I remember correctly at some point Gandalf says something like: eagles are free spirits and a proud race and you cannot simply use them as machines to fly wherever and whenever you want to. So, they come to help when they decide to, probably following Manwe's orders. Also, in my opinion Eagles are children of Iluvatar with a mind on their own, created by Manwe, like Dwarfs created by Aule and Ents created by Yavanna. The only race without a free will are Orcs and maybe Trolls.
Trolls and will... those to things seem mutually exclusive.
I've always thought that whoever rode the eagle to "throw the ring into Mount Doom" may not have been able to do it, just like Frodo couldn't. It would have certainly meant the capture of the ring and the loss of the eagles, a one way trip to destruction.
I always just assumed that the Eagles were kind and benevolent beings and Gandalf did not want to take advantage of such graceful creatures. This made sense to me based off of how Gandalf treated other aspects of nature such as the Ents.
hi there. this is the point where i answer a 5 year old comment to point out that Gandalf sure took advantage of those graceful creatures, multiple times. And not just hobbits, the eagles too =)
Two part history of Bilbo Baggins
History of Saruman of Many Colors
History of Merry and Pippin
Jack McDonnell what if merry and pippin transforms into mary poppins
@@MatthieuArmengau That would be very heartwarming. Except Yondu Udonta is Mary Poppins.
Thanks for your insight! Glad to know I'm not the only one that wonders this! Thx
But seriously had the eagles flown them closer to Mordor, the men of the West would have never been reunited. Theoden would still have been under Sarumons influence and the Rohirrim divided, the Ents would not have been rallied, Gollum would have not been able y to follow Frodo and fufill his ultimate role in the series. All of those things and more would not have come to pass. Gandalf would have never died in Moria, ect. Remember the goal was not only to get the Frodo to mt doom, as even if they did they could not have given him the will power to destroy it. Everything that happened needed to be done the way the was for the quest to have been completed. It wasn't just a matter of taking a shortcut.
This is the best explanation on UA-cam.
The lack of fëa is the most cogent answer.
You should make a video about the top 5 best Elven fighters of all time same with Human and Dwarves! That would be so awesome.
laboom60 Great idea friend! That would be an awesome video!
If so I hope that Legolas is at least honorable mention.
1.Fingolfin
2.Feanor
3.Fingon
4.Maedhros
5.Glorfindel
1.Turin and Tuor
2. Hurin
3. Ellendil
4. Hador
5. Isildur
Νίκος Μελιδονιώτης I pretty much agree with all of that but Beren needs to be on that list
Good list what about dwarves?
Good ideas! Well said. I loved the start of this video haha
While I've always been attached to the idea that the Ring could have been a corrupting influence on the Eagles had they known what they were carrying, I think it's pretty clear from the passages you cite in Morgoth's Ring that the Eagles' role as the Thought of Manwe makes it impossible to turn them against him, and Manwe's very nature makes him personally incorruptible. That said, having it might lead to them making a different decision regarding the right course of action, like keeping it high on some mountain or the like rather than risk its capture. Manwe's go-to strategy in dealing with Middle-Earth corruption is to call upon/trust Iluvatar, rather than try to fix things himself; he doesn't really have a great long-term record of success dealing with it when he's tried (like Morgoth fooling everyone into thinking he "recovered"), so I'm sure Manwe and his agents were more than ready to let someone else try. Your very important observation that Gollum was the ultimate key to the Ring's destruction highlights the wisdom of the Eagles' (and by extension Manwe's) restraint.
I do think the Eagles' participation in the Battle of Five Armies shows that it isn't impossible for them to directly intervene in purely Middle-Earth affairs. The Ring just wasn't something they were suited to help with.
One last thing: your comment about Sauron's palantir now has me wondering if Sauron didn't shoot himself in the foot by somehow crafting the Ring to shield itself from discovery by the palantiri, when he couldn't have foreseen a day when he'd have a working palantir but not the Ring.
Fantastic series. So very happy you're doing these.
Such an excellent video. Clears this "plothole" so so Well. Thank you for making this. :)
Maybe they were similar to The ents that really didn't want to get involved, however perhaps Radaghast was the one talking them into helping during the events of the ring.
Simple answer : They would be seen.
The whole idea was a stealth mission. Sneak into Mordor and destroy the ring at the only place it can be unmade. Had they flown there, all of Sauron's army would be waiting for them and the crack of doom would be guarded by all nine of the Nazgul and Sauron himself.
Thanks for the Jokes the Message in your video Mellon, you brightest the minds of the Tolkien in me every week...
Thank You!!! I hear people go on and on about, "Why couldn't they just fly the ring to Mordor?" And You just answer that question very well thank you, Mellon!!!
Thanks for the Shout Out and Discussion Video Mellon, Until Riverdale's Spotlight...Marion Baggions Out
Stars, an ocean breeze, and the sound of the surf makes watching the newest video this week even better. Where I am isn't Middle Earth or the Shire, but it is pretty awesome. Until next week, take care Mellon.
Big fan of melons, aren't you.
First off, the Eagles don't generally like to intervene in this sort of thing. Second, the airspace around Mordor is likely patrolled by fell beasts and all sorts of other evil creatures.
Not to mention, Elrond makes it very clear that Sauron's eye is locked onto Rivendell, which, need I remind everyone who has read Tolkien's Legendarium or looked at a map of Middle Earth is THOUSANDS of miles from Mordor. Chances are, the moment he spotted an entire invasion flock of Eagles spear-headed by Gwaihir, he would immediately begin beefing up his defenses.
I know this was written a long time ago, but do you not think eagles can fly somewhat faster than a medieval-equivalent power is able to "beef up its defenses"?
The only First hand account i can find explaining why, they didnt use the eagles, is Tolkien saying, "shut up". Thats all. Its almost like he didnt think about it.
The best argument by far is "we wouldn't have a good story". Why can't we just leave it at that?
Anyone know where I can download a wallpaper of that picture at 2:55 ish? It’s been used as posters back in the original release of the movies too. Never had luck finding it.
I agree with your ideas
I think it comes down to Ying and Yang. Nature has a way of balancing itself and if you present some sort of unbalanced power then evil will be given something of equal power...
Ahhh another great video as always yoystan! Now I must give my request for a video. What if samwise Gangee didn’t go with Frodo to destroy the ring. I would love to see your opinion on this as geek zone and myself have done a video on this topic. But alas, keep up the good work ❤️
Indeed you are correct but I love seeing other peoples ideas on what would truly happen if a certain theory came to be. :)
Very nice answer, you touched my favorite talking points.
Can you tuck away an idea for the future , the Scourging of the Shire?
I wish the eagles were a scorestreak on Call of Duty haha
They defend
They protec
But most important, they fly you out of heck!
Eh...I tried. Not my best attempt lol.
What if Fram was killed by Scatha?
What if Smaug survived the events of the Hobbit?
What if Elrod took the Ring?
What if Tar-Miriel had become qceen of Numenor instead of Ar-Farazon?
What if king Earnur was not killed by the witch-King?
What if Saruman was not a traitor?
What if Smaug took the Ring?
What if Durin's Bane took the Ring?
What if Glaurung killed Turin?
What if the battle of Un-numbered tears never took place?
(sorry for my bad spelling)
Fram killed by Scatha, oh damn that would be...interesting (no conflict of Dwarves with Northmen, also ancestors of Rohirrim kings would not be so rich, some of that treasure hoard was later in treasury of Meduseld), especially since due to the butterfly effect, the silver horn that centuries later Merry would receive from Eomer and Eowyn would possibly not fall into his hands in this scenario, then and it's a pure theory but still, the 'magical' effects of that horn blow would not rouse the Hobbits of Bywater to fight still there could have been other ways, but Merry when he blew the horn called out many hobbits strengthening their resolve. A minor thing but who knows? That horn of dwarf-make had peculiar effect on people, Sam when he heard it riding to Rosie and mrs. Cotton felt overwhelming urge to turn back and heed the call, pretty neat little trick :). I wonder whether this is another example of dwarven magic in their crafted objects? There's so little examples of dwarven magic that it sometimes appears to be ambiguous whether they have magic at all :)...but the magic dwarf-gates, objects such as dragon-helm of Dor-lómin etc. pretty much show they are capable of crafting magical objects and artifacts.
what if Thorin took the Ring from Bilbo?
@@TallisKeeton
Dwarves aren't tempted by the rings, though. So it's almost impossible for that situation to even happen in the first place.
@@Alizudo They are temped by gold generaly, and they got their magic rings from Sauron too. And the One Ring was more powerful than the dwarven rings. So I think that it was possible to create a dark lord from Thorin :) Actualy I remember q. good dark fanfic in which Thorin is a dark lord with the One Ring and Bilbo is his prisoner and all hobbits are his slaves, working in the mines - "The king under the Mountain" by Zara Hemla.
I love your videos man keep it up!
Thank you for the information! Whenever a friend or family member asked me why, I found it best to reply with the question, "The next time your computer has trouble, why not call up Bill Gates and ask him to troubleshoot it for you?" This response has been met with a myriad of reactions, but it seemed the simplest way to deal with the issue at hand. While I'll still most likely keep that in my holster for those who aren't big fans of Tolkien, I appreciate your explanations in this video for a more proper analysis.
I know this is a 3 years old comment, but I find that your analogy fails, Big Bad Evil Sauron is a bigger deal than a simple computer trouble. Now, a better analogy would be "why did God (Christian) need Jesus to die to forgive humans' sins, why not simply just forgive them?"
The eagles had their own business to attend to, and shockingly, they didn't care about the fellowship or their quest unless it directly affected their lives. As evidenced by Gwaihars reluctance to carry Gandalf away from orthanc " i came to bear tidings, not burdens". He fulfilled the role of messenger but didn't want to involve himself further.
The eagles didn't seem to have any trouble carrying Bilbo when he had the ring.
My only disagreement is from the argument about how the eagles wanted to steer clear of the One Ring. Yes, they carried Bilbo, but for one, they had no idea what he was carrying. For 2, the Ring was more or less “sleeping” when they carried Bilbo, and wasn’t trying nearly as hard to fall into enemy hands. If they’d asked the eagles to carry Frodo, of course they would have also had to tell them why, and perhaps they wouldn’t do it, especially with the more active ring trying desperately to corrupt everyone around it. Although, I’ll also admit that I’m not sure even the One Ring could stretch itself to be able to fit around an Eagles toe. Maybe you could do another video about speculating what would happen if the eagles had gotten the Ring? I’d pay to watch that, Lol
Good luck entering mount doom after Sauron is made aware of the eagles coming with the ring. All the nazguls and all the orcs of mordor would just camp it.
Great discussion to cover. Thought about this alot.
Love the video. The Eagles are my favorite creatures in Tolkien's Legendarium ❤
They are puppets.
there's a decent idea as to why they couldn't do it.
The Eagles are a great intelligent mystical race on Middle Earth. Like the Elves they're very powerful in the world.
Think of an Eagle who gains possession of the One Ring and is corrupted by it.
Because it would have made for an extremely short story.
Sauron didn't fear the ring was being taken to Mordor and thrown into the fire but rather they would leave Rivendell and take the ring to the wars of Minus Tirith. Thats why Rivendell was being watched by millions of birds called, " Crebain." If you remember correctly the nine walkers lost an entire day trying to avoid being spotted by endless flocks of Crebain. The point is if they had left Rivendell on the backs of Eagles, Sauron was ready for them with his own airforce. Also, by this time, Sauron had grown so powerful that not only did he control the skies but also the weather and could also hurl snow at the Eagles all the way from Mordor.
One thing I’ve been wondering for a while- what if pippin hadn’t made all that noise in Moria? What if they made it out undetected with Gandalf still alive?
K.C., the Balrog may have realized the Fellowship was in the mines all along and been waiting for them by the bridge, regardless.
Pippin would not have made the noise. With all the skeletons they would have been EXTREMElY careful.
The answer is in the end. Without Golum there can be no destruction of the ring. Frodo could only take it to mount doom and he was also the one to take golum with him. Gandalf knows this and he tells us in Moria. It s a magnificent plot
Best meme ever
Yeah, we already had one meme, but how about a second meme? :P
I believe your position is accurate. In the LOTR, I think the eagles are limited in their ability to intervene in the affairs of Middle Earth, and make decisions. I do think that this is different in the Hobbit, where the eagles soar the be sentient beings.
"One does not simply walk into mordor"👌
You refer a lot of things but the main reason was that the journey was key to the end result. I mean, the ring had to be dropped on the volcano thus the journey was essential to allow Frodo to grow and become able to do the task. The journey is more important than the destination.
" Fly you Fools!"
Aha! Good catch!
“Fly” means “flee” means “run away from the Balrog and the swarms of Gobljns”. Not a difficult word.
@@ArchetypeGotoh english is not my language but my dictionary does not agree with you, also in the context of that scene everyone understood that the "fleeing" is implied, but maybe the actual word for "flying" was meant how it was said...literally....that is why I say: good catch...
Gaaandaaaalf ,nooooooooooooo
Your dictionary is likely not the one Tolkien used, neither is it likely to be old English, as words change meaning over time. The dictionary also recognizes “ain’t” and it thinks “they” can be a singular pronoun in 2019, so the dictionary is hardly a valid authority. Besides, none of them have wings, to suggest “literally flying” at that point is impossible and absurd.
I think what you said at the end was a very Tolkien thing. Tolkien's story is very much against doing things the quick and easy way. As seen in the story of the creation of the Dwarves for example or in Treebeard and the Ents who are all "Let's not be hasty".
Also, another typical response is that the Eagles would take offence to merely being called upon as Taxis as they are a proudful people and only listens to Gandalf because he has a special relationship with them. The Hobbit explains the Eagles reasoning very well
Really good video. Expect me to link it whenever I see people bring up "But muh Eagles!"
Didnt the eagles only help Gandolf because he saved one of their leaders or something? Arent they almost as powerful as wizards?
“Can you take us to Mordor?”
The eagles: “No”
Being near the "One Ring" would have corrupted the Great Eagles after a short time.
Don't be too sure; Nobody's tried it out.
When the EAgles carried Bilbo no one knew that he had the One Ring, so unless they had some kind of intuitive sense of the power of the ring in Bilbo's pocket they the Eagle King could not have been tempted. If he could sense the power of the ring, why would he not relay that information to Gandalf or Saruman? Along with the other good reasons you've discussed here, I had always thought that if Gandalf could be corrupted by the ring, then very likely a Great Eagle could also. And then there is the statement that Gandalf says to Frodo--that he thinks that Bilbo's finding of the ring was not an accident, that he was meant to to find it and that Frodo was meant to bear it, and that "other forces" than Sauron were behind these actions. If Frodo's "bearing" of the ring means that all he is doing is holding on to it while the Eagles cart him off to Mount Doom, then anyone could have been the Ringbearer. Frodo has to bear the ring because this amazing deed can only be accomplished by an innocent who has no desire for power, and so is able to resist the strength of the ring's influence. Just my own opinion, of course.
I feel it simply was not the will of the ERU and they needed to experience those experiences to make them strong enough to face the darkness of Mordor
And those experiences helped to strengthen the unity between Elves, Dwarves, and Men, and even Ents too
I love all these. Keep them coming. The Eagles were a bit like Ents imo. They would fight when it was beneficial to do so and they were probably not kind to the farmers of Middle Earth. I have always wondered why didn't the forgotten ring bearer Tom Bombadil just sing the ring to Mount Doom? Maybe it's a stupid question.
What about a "What If?" Video where the eagles take the fellowship to Mordor??
keegan112099 *archers fireing a shit ton of arrows,fell beast swarming,nets being shot and everyone dies*
No thanks, Tolkien's story is better
that is what happened in the USSR and China... and the USA government just watched as Stalin shipped half of the countries he invaded to Siberia
@@T-REX-KNIGHT problem solved!
Easy to remember summary of arguments against the "plot hole"
1. It's risky, one mistake could bring the ring to Sauron
2. It's too easy to notice
3. They are not allowed by Manwe to intervene because they are direct servents of his will with no fea (therefore no free will)
"Shut up" -J.R.R. Tolkien
loved the conclusion at the end. So tolkien.
lol 0:37 well done my boy
Good analysis. You made solid points.
The eagles are that guy that never ever starts a fight but when confronted to it, always finishes it.
can real eagles fight people with weapons.. no, they attack small mice and itsie bitsie tiny baby bunnies
I like how you also included what others said on the matter, like Drew.