I just got my Mysteries of Westernesse calendar and wanted to brag on how awesome the artwork is, very detailed and well thought out. Thank you Westernesse for the fantastic calendar.
My favorite part of the LOTR trilogy has to be when The Borg captures Captain Picard and transforms him into Borg. Imagine writing that so many years ago.......
@@mohamaddelkhahquestion: why didnt they ride the eagles to mordoe? Answer: for tens of reasons made clear by the movie and hundreds of reasons made clear by the book. Just watch the movie again or read the book again and find the answers.
Thank you very much! I listened to his personal recordings and I try my best to at the very least approach his voice and intonation. I'm very happy you like it!
@@Crafty_Spirit The main 3 people from the channel are from Germany, as the channel lists, though I myself am not. Unfortunately, that is all I can say right now (gotta keep the mystery alive 😉)
@@Crafty_Spirit I share that interest. Though, as a result, in English I am nigh-fluent in 3 accents, and in 2 more languages I speak at least 2 accents/dialects as well. As a result, I fear that, despite my attempts to speak MRP as a foundation in these videos, some of the other accents might bleed into my speech. I'm curious to hear your guesses, though I will not be able to confirm or deny some things ;)
Without reading any letter of Tolkien, I came to a similar conclusion. I understood that the Valar were not interested in solving men's problem. They will however, from time to time, give a little push to someone who did heroic deeds yet felt short.
The real reason is the eagles location is further than Gandalf lasted! Like the other 8 are gonna roll up on majestic beasts they’ve never encountered before nor know how to communicate with them. Plus what if one of them wigged out once Frodo whipped out the ring then all 7 would be dead! Legolas 😉
Flying them to their destination, even if that had been Mount Doom itself, would still only be a supporting role. As transport :P But honestly, the Maiar and Valar are assholes. They are the whole reason for the bad shit happening. Yet they leave it to the weak mortals to clean up their own mess of a family drama. Sheesh. Sauron was one of them right? Sure, leave the orcs, and the trolls and all that. But kill Sauron, he should be their mess to deal with imo.
The valar did come to Middle Earth to battle Melkor, but such fights are catastrophic, with immense collateral damage. They didn't dare risk doing that again. Sauron was told to go to Vallinor, to face justice, but he never went. Moreover, this was all probably according to Eru's master plan, to let mortals be their own saviors.
so spoke the mortal man of the seventh age of the the sun to still ever present Valar and the Maiär among us. I love the depth to that joke of yours!!!!! 😂😂😂
Fyi sorry....I'm like bipolar type one with a strange case of a semi-deliberate intentional split personality. I really apologize for me acting like a fool not two minutes prior. Had to delete first draft of that other one. Omg. Rofl. Yes I'm real. Hi world! Hi mom! I'm infamous now on Reddit and socials. 🙄😒
Sure, don't take them to the volcano, but they could at least get them somewhere near Mordor. Of the 9 starting members, only 2 remained before they even reached Mordor. That's almost an 80% loss which probably could have been avoided, if the eagles could carry them. While it all worked out in the end, maybe even better than it would have been if the eagles had helped, the real question is "why didn't the fellowship (Gandalf) even ask the eagles?" since they couldn't know beforehand that it'd work out for the best without them. "Unsuitable for stealth mission" argument on its own, doesn't hold up since it'd be impossible to see an eagle flying in high altitude during night. "They'd be tempted to take the ring", again on it's own, is inconsistent with how Gandalf doesn't have the same predicament while being close to Frodo. "Forbidden to help"? Well they do help, quite significantly in other situations. What exactly makes this so different from saving Thorin's company? Or rescuing Gandalf? And even if they are, it wouldn't hurt to check and ask. Meta arguments such as "it would be a boring story" while valid from a writers point of view, don't apply to internal consistency of the world. That's why they should be translated to an intermediary explanation. Unless Elrond pulls a Deadpool and breaks the 4th wall, showing awareness of being a story character. And this issue/plothole/whatever is quite easy to fix. One sentence or two in the book or other supplementary material would have sufficed. "Eagles can be sensed by the enemies with measures beyond mere sight" to go with the "stealth mission" explanation, or "the malice of the ring weigh down the bearer, defying the freedom that is in flight and skies, binding them to dwell only on the surface", or "those Maiar have not lived among mortals, nor near the domains of the dark lords and their ilk. As such they're not accustomed to frequent and prolonged temptations, which the ring would cast while in their company." to go with the "temptation" route. Yes, I know they're not quite good, but since I could come up with them in 5 minutes, Tolkien could definitely write a really good one in 15. And that's my real disappointment. I'm not really objecting to the fact that no explanation is given. Some reasons exist, that to Gandalf who's the only one who could even think of this method, it's so obvious that it'd fail that he doesn't even consider it. My issue is, that when someone (or at least I) asks this question, they want to know Gandalf's reason, not Tolkien's, which is obviously it wouldn't make a good story, and it's quite true and valid. My real disappointment isn't that this question remains unanswered, but rather the fact that it isn't acknowledged to be an interesting legitimate question which could give some insight into the relationships and characteristics of this world, even if he ultimately decided to go with "the Maiar work in mysterious ways" explanation of not revealing any real explanation and keeping it a mystery.
You are very right in asking what Gandalf's reason is, as opposed to the more standard question we've answered in this video. In how Gandalf spoke of his interactions with Gwaihir both after his escape from Isengard and after his resurrection after his fight with Durin's Bane, it gives the impression that Gandalf doesn't want to ask too much from the Great Eagles, and is very hesitant to ask their assistance with anything in the first place. If he was that hesitant with just the small things he did ask in the books, he would not have dared to ask of them to play that central, pivotal role in the quest. However, this is only what I could pull from memory quickly. A full and proper answer to Gandalf's version of this question would require more time for research, unfortunately. But I hope this was at least somewhat satisfactory.
@@MysteriesOfWesternesse Unfortunately no. I understand where you're coming from, but imo, hesitation in asking small favors doesn't naturally expand to asking for help when when the fate of the world's on scale. From Gandalf's point of view, this was a dangerous high risk quest, with very significant chance of failure resulting ultimately in Sauron getting his ring back, which would pose a real threat to the entire middle earth and all creatures. I can't imagine Gandalf thinking "yes we failed and Sauron is now enslaving the entire world, but thank Illuvatar I wasn't rude to the eagles". There is a reason that eagles either would strictly refuse to help, or their help could not possibly make things better. Gandalf knows said reason. And I think we don't know it, since explanations attempting to reveal that reason so far, are all lacking in my opinion, although some do come close. And finally I think even Tolkien might not know it, since he always dismissed that question and never gave serious thought about it, which is a pity in my opinion.
@@mohamaddelkhah What is wrong with Irjikor's explanation? We know that Istari were limited in what they were allowed to do. Most Maiar who used their powers to accomplish the goals were evil. Only Melian comes to mind as someone who wasn't evil. I always assume there was a directive of non-interference given by Eru. Eru knows that the death of the hröa is not the end. The Elves can reembody. Men can receive the Gift. Eru values growth, friendship, cooperation, courage, self-sacrifice, love, etc. Dropping the One Ring, from an eagle flying high above, into the fires of Orodruin is the laziest thing a Hobbit could do. I think the problem you have is with the result. Eru predestined the result. The process was what was important
@@Enerdhil I already explained point by point what's wrong with that explanation in my opinion. I'll clarify further my "forbidden to help?" point for you. "directive of non-interference" doesn't make any sense to me, when Gandalf is literally a member of the fellowship. He is definitely interfering to some very significant extent. Being a member of the fellowship, their guide, fighting alongside them, and protecting them from a great enemy such as a Balrog is interference. I'd say not only is it interference, but he is the most prominent figure in the party given his actions. Same is true for the eagles. Saving Thorin's company is a pretty significant interference. Saving Gandalf from Saruman is pretty significant interference, given Gandalf's role in later events. So how exactly does this directive differentiate between these situations? I thought I had made myself clear that this could be a good and the real explanation, like any other explanation, but before we know why this situation is outside the bounds of what they're allowed to do, it's just head canon and speculation. Hence it makes sense to ask Tolkien to clarify this, if not in the books themselves, at least as replying to fans. And Again, I'm not saying he should have answered this question no matter what. Not every good question needs to be answered, but I think it's a valid unanswered question that needs more acknowledgement. "Laziest thing a hobbit could do" you're missing the point. This could explain why Eru would lay this path before them, and no one ever says the story should've been any other way, such as dropping the ring from an eagle. But that'll still need an explanation why did THE FELLOWSHIP, not Eru, consider this to be the only path, and utilizing eagles unfeasible. Because the fellowship wouldn't and didn't consider this as a gym exercise. They were simply maximizing the odds of saving the world from the threat of Sauron, as they should be. From their point of view, if flushing the ring down the toilet in Bag End would maximize said odds, they would just do that, and they should. It's up to the writer to introduce restrictions, so that it makes sense for the characters to do as they did. The writer wishes to do that through will of Eru and his values, which governs all thing in the story? Fair. There is still a missing link between "Eru values x, y , z, etc" and the fellowship thinking "nope eagles are of no help in this mission". Again, it isn't necessary for a story to leave no missing link, but it's valid to point out, think and ask about such missing links. On the contrary, I have zero problems with the result. As I said in previous comment, I absolutely think the result should have remained as Tolkien wrote it. My problem is that I wish we had the answer to "why did Gandalf decide not to consider the possibility of asking for the eagle's help" in the process of choosing their course of action. We can just have incomplete head canons and speculations, none of which can fully and flawlessly answer it, without making unproven assumptions.
@@mohamaddelkhah Thank you for the excellent meticulous reply.😁👍 Remember The Council of Elrond? Remember Tom Bombadil's name being brought up as a possible person to take possession of the Ring? Gandalf clearly knows more about the beings in Middle Earth than we think. He would know why the Eagles were not a viable option. That is why he didn't bring them up. So, Bilbo should be the one to bring it up in the Council because he knows Gwaihir and his fellow Eagles personally. He knows that they could easily fly that distance carrying a Hobbit, yet he did not broach the issue. That makes me think that they had already crossed that off their list of possible ways to deal with the One Ring. To your point, it would be nice to know how they came to that decision. Unfortunately, that we will never know.😞
It might have worked, but Sauron could have sent the Nazgul and their flying beast to attack them. If the happened, Frodo could have been knocked off an eagle and died.
Because their enemy was a magical lighthouse that could magically sense the ring, and it had 9 dragons being ridden by wizard ghosts that could intercept the eagles. Flying the ring into Mordor would just be delivering it to Sauron.
I imagine for them it would be the same as Frodo trying to drop it in: conviction to do it, but then the overwhelming desire to claim it. And then whether the Eagle bearing it flies off to try to master the Ring or immediately falls under Sauron's power, one way or another the Free People lose at the Black Gate, Sauron wins, and eventually the One Ring returns to its master.
Well. I'm no expert in LOTR lore, like or any of the other channels I watch. But flying them would have cut out 3/4 of the trilogy. Thus making it dull and boring.
I just got my Mysteries of Westernesse calendar and wanted to brag on how awesome the artwork is, very detailed and well thought out. Thank you Westernesse for the fantastic calendar.
We're very happy to hear that! We'll let the artist know as well. Sstefiart will be thrilled to hear 😉
My favorite part of the LOTR trilogy has to be when The Borg captures Captain Picard and transforms him into Borg. Imagine writing that so many years ago.......
Because Tolkien wanted to write a book, not a short story.
Because they would not get permission to enter Mordor airspace.
They had Transmen working in the flight tower.🤪
Tolkien's response to that question in an interview was "shut up."
It isn’t even a good or sensible question
@@brokenwave6125 it is.
You know thats not real right?
@@mohamaddelkhahquestion: why didnt they ride the eagles to mordoe?
Answer: for tens of reasons made clear by the movie and hundreds of reasons made clear by the book. Just watch the movie again or read the book again and find the answers.
@@Hero_Of_Old
I am pretty sure, it is.
I love your impression of the professor
Thank you very much! I listened to his personal recordings and I try my best to at the very least approach his voice and intonation. I'm very happy you like it!
@@Irjikor_Curuvane Where are you and your friends from if I may ask? I'm Swiss :)
@@Crafty_Spirit The main 3 people from the channel are from Germany, as the channel lists, though I myself am not.
Unfortunately, that is all I can say right now (gotta keep the mystery alive 😉)
@@Irjikor_Curuvane Hehe good one :) I have a keen interest in languages and accents and you have a very interesting one
@@Crafty_Spirit I share that interest. Though, as a result, in English I am nigh-fluent in 3 accents, and in 2 more languages I speak at least 2 accents/dialects as well. As a result, I fear that, despite my attempts to speak MRP as a foundation in these videos, some of the other accents might bleed into my speech.
I'm curious to hear your guesses, though I will not be able to confirm or deny some things ;)
Yo, you uploaded after a while.
Mordor had an airforce, people would notice a giant eagle and the fellbeasts would do the rest.
Without reading any letter of Tolkien, I came to a similar conclusion. I understood that the Valar were not interested in solving men's problem. They will however, from time to time, give a little push to someone who did heroic deeds yet felt short.
That's their M.O.😞
Because then Tolkien would not have a story to write.
The real reason is the eagles location is further than Gandalf lasted! Like the other 8 are gonna roll up on majestic beasts they’ve never encountered before nor know how to communicate with them. Plus what if one of them wigged out once Frodo whipped out the ring then all 7 would be dead!
Legolas 😉
The mission depended on stealth
Because Tolkien said “shut the f up” to anyone who asked this question because he can’t bear the fact that he left a major plot hole in his bible
Sounds pretty similar to when he was corrected in the use of dwarfs/dwarves.
He was not a fan of being corrected.
@@osakarose5612 True but not many have the history to say 'I wrote that dictionary, please don't bother quoting it to me' and have it get awkward.
Plot holes we blame on Bilbo.🤪
Flying them to their destination, even if that had been Mount Doom itself, would still only be a supporting role. As transport :P
But honestly, the Maiar and Valar are assholes. They are the whole reason for the bad shit happening. Yet they leave it to the weak mortals to clean up their own mess of a family drama. Sheesh. Sauron was one of them right? Sure, leave the orcs, and the trolls and all that. But kill Sauron, he should be their mess to deal with imo.
Without Gollum rue mission would have failed.
The valar did come to Middle Earth to battle Melkor, but such fights are catastrophic, with immense collateral damage. They didn't dare risk doing that again. Sauron was told to go to Vallinor, to face justice, but he never went. Moreover, this was all probably according to Eru's master plan, to let mortals be their own saviors.
so spoke the mortal man of the seventh age of the the sun to still ever present Valar and the Maiär among us. I love the depth to that joke of yours!!!!! 😂😂😂
Fyi sorry....I'm like bipolar type one with a strange case of a semi-deliberate intentional split personality. I really apologize for me acting like a fool not two minutes prior. Had to delete first draft of that other one. Omg. Rofl. Yes I'm real. Hi world! Hi mom! I'm infamous now on Reddit and socials. 🙄😒
@@raskolnikov6443 But how did the fellowship know that?
It’s been forever since I’ve seen or read the trilogy. Is it Saruman or Sauron who has the flocks of crows searching for them?
Saruman ;)
Radagast.🤣😂😆
Sure, don't take them to the volcano, but they could at least get them somewhere near Mordor. Of the 9 starting members, only 2 remained before they even reached Mordor. That's almost an 80% loss which probably could have been avoided, if the eagles could carry them. While it all worked out in the end, maybe even better than it would have been if the eagles had helped, the real question is "why didn't the fellowship (Gandalf) even ask the eagles?" since they couldn't know beforehand that it'd work out for the best without them.
"Unsuitable for stealth mission" argument on its own, doesn't hold up since it'd be impossible to see an eagle flying in high altitude during night.
"They'd be tempted to take the ring", again on it's own, is inconsistent with how Gandalf doesn't have the same predicament while being close to Frodo.
"Forbidden to help"? Well they do help, quite significantly in other situations. What exactly makes this so different from saving Thorin's company? Or rescuing Gandalf? And even if they are, it wouldn't hurt to check and ask.
Meta arguments such as "it would be a boring story" while valid from a writers point of view, don't apply to internal consistency of the world. That's why they should be translated to an intermediary explanation. Unless Elrond pulls a Deadpool and breaks the 4th wall, showing awareness of being a story character.
And this issue/plothole/whatever is quite easy to fix. One sentence or two in the book or other supplementary material would have sufficed. "Eagles can be sensed by the enemies with measures beyond mere sight" to go with the "stealth mission" explanation, or "the malice of the ring weigh down the bearer, defying the freedom that is in flight and skies, binding them to dwell only on the surface", or "those Maiar have not lived among mortals, nor near the domains of the dark lords and their ilk. As such they're not accustomed to frequent and prolonged temptations, which the ring would cast while in their company." to go with the "temptation" route.
Yes, I know they're not quite good, but since I could come up with them in 5 minutes, Tolkien could definitely write a really good one in 15. And that's my real disappointment. I'm not really objecting to the fact that no explanation is given. Some reasons exist, that to Gandalf who's the only one who could even think of this method, it's so obvious that it'd fail that he doesn't even consider it. My issue is, that when someone (or at least I) asks this question, they want to know Gandalf's reason, not Tolkien's, which is obviously it wouldn't make a good story, and it's quite true and valid. My real disappointment isn't that this question remains unanswered, but rather the fact that it isn't acknowledged to be an interesting legitimate question which could give some insight into the relationships and characteristics of this world, even if he ultimately decided to go with "the Maiar work in mysterious ways" explanation of not revealing any real explanation and keeping it a mystery.
You are very right in asking what Gandalf's reason is, as opposed to the more standard question we've answered in this video.
In how Gandalf spoke of his interactions with Gwaihir both after his escape from Isengard and after his resurrection after his fight with Durin's Bane, it gives the impression that Gandalf doesn't want to ask too much from the Great Eagles, and is very hesitant to ask their assistance with anything in the first place. If he was that hesitant with just the small things he did ask in the books, he would not have dared to ask of them to play that central, pivotal role in the quest.
However, this is only what I could pull from memory quickly. A full and proper answer to Gandalf's version of this question would require more time for research, unfortunately. But I hope this was at least somewhat satisfactory.
@@MysteriesOfWesternesse Unfortunately no. I understand where you're coming from, but imo, hesitation in asking small favors doesn't naturally expand to asking for help when when the fate of the world's on scale. From Gandalf's point of view, this was a dangerous high risk quest, with very significant chance of failure resulting ultimately in Sauron getting his ring back, which would pose a real threat to the entire middle earth and all creatures. I can't imagine Gandalf thinking "yes we failed and Sauron is now enslaving the entire world, but thank Illuvatar I wasn't rude to the eagles".
There is a reason that eagles either would strictly refuse to help, or their help could not possibly make things better. Gandalf knows said reason. And I think we don't know it, since explanations attempting to reveal that reason so far, are all lacking in my opinion, although some do come close. And finally I think even Tolkien might not know it, since he always dismissed that question and never gave serious thought about it, which is a pity in my opinion.
@@mohamaddelkhah
What is wrong with Irjikor's explanation? We know that Istari were limited in what they were allowed to do. Most Maiar who used their powers to accomplish the goals were evil. Only Melian comes to mind as someone who wasn't evil. I always assume there was a directive of non-interference given by Eru.
Eru knows that the death of the hröa is not the end. The Elves can reembody. Men can receive the Gift. Eru values growth, friendship, cooperation, courage, self-sacrifice, love, etc. Dropping the One Ring, from an eagle flying high above, into the fires of Orodruin is the laziest thing a Hobbit could do.
I think the problem you have is with the result. Eru predestined the result. The process was what was important
@@Enerdhil I already explained point by point what's wrong with that explanation in my opinion. I'll clarify further my "forbidden to help?" point for you.
"directive of non-interference" doesn't make any sense to me, when Gandalf is literally a member of the fellowship. He is definitely interfering to some very significant extent. Being a member of the fellowship, their guide, fighting alongside them, and protecting them from a great enemy such as a Balrog is interference. I'd say not only is it interference, but he is the most prominent figure in the party given his actions. Same is true for the eagles. Saving Thorin's company is a pretty significant interference. Saving Gandalf from Saruman is pretty significant interference, given Gandalf's role in later events. So how exactly does this directive differentiate between these situations? I thought I had made myself clear that this could be a good and the real explanation, like any other explanation, but before we know why this situation is outside the bounds of what they're allowed to do, it's just head canon and speculation. Hence it makes sense to ask Tolkien to clarify this, if not in the books themselves, at least as replying to fans. And Again, I'm not saying he should have answered this question no matter what. Not every good question needs to be answered, but I think it's a valid unanswered question that needs more acknowledgement.
"Laziest thing a hobbit could do" you're missing the point. This could explain why Eru would lay this path before them, and no one ever says the story should've been any other way, such as dropping the ring from an eagle. But that'll still need an explanation why did THE FELLOWSHIP, not Eru, consider this to be the only path, and utilizing eagles unfeasible. Because the fellowship wouldn't and didn't consider this as a gym exercise. They were simply maximizing the odds of saving the world from the threat of Sauron, as they should be. From their point of view, if flushing the ring down the toilet in Bag End would maximize said odds, they would just do that, and they should. It's up to the writer to introduce restrictions, so that it makes sense for the characters to do as they did. The writer wishes to do that through will of Eru and his values, which governs all thing in the story? Fair. There is still a missing link between "Eru values x, y , z, etc" and the fellowship thinking "nope eagles are of no help in this mission". Again, it isn't necessary for a story to leave no missing link, but it's valid to point out, think and ask about such missing links.
On the contrary, I have zero problems with the result. As I said in previous comment, I absolutely think the result should have remained as Tolkien wrote it. My problem is that I wish we had the answer to "why did Gandalf decide not to consider the possibility of asking for the eagle's help" in the process of choosing their course of action. We can just have incomplete head canons and speculations, none of which can fully and flawlessly answer it, without making unproven assumptions.
@@mohamaddelkhah
Thank you for the excellent meticulous reply.😁👍
Remember The Council of Elrond? Remember Tom Bombadil's name being brought up as a possible person to take possession of the Ring? Gandalf clearly knows more about the beings in Middle Earth than we think. He would know why the Eagles were not a viable option. That is why he didn't bring them up.
So, Bilbo should be the one to bring it up in the Council because he knows Gwaihir and his fellow Eagles personally. He knows that they could easily fly that distance carrying a Hobbit, yet he did not broach the issue. That makes me think that they had already crossed that off their list of possible ways to deal with the One Ring.
To your point, it would be nice to know how they came to that decision. Unfortunately, that we will never know.😞
Simple: It was supposed to be a stealth mission. Giant angel birds aren’t exactly the most stealthy creatures.
I guess there is no reason to put lights on 747s then.
Stealthier than Ancalagon. 😅
It might have worked, but Sauron could have sent the Nazgul and their flying beast to attack them. If the happened, Frodo could have been knocked off an eagle and died.
Because their enemy was a magical lighthouse that could magically sense the ring, and it had 9 dragons being ridden by wizard ghosts that could intercept the eagles. Flying the ring into Mordor would just be delivering it to Sauron.
Thats in the movies, not the books. Sauron isn't a lighthouse and can't magically sense the ring, even when Frodo wears it.
Better yet...why didn't the eagles took the ring and drop it into the volcano?
I imagine for them it would be the same as Frodo trying to drop it in: conviction to do it, but then the overwhelming desire to claim it.
And then whether the Eagle bearing it flies off to try to master the Ring or immediately falls under Sauron's power, one way or another the Free People lose at the Black Gate, Sauron wins, and eventually the One Ring returns to its master.
@@Nerd_Detective that's a damn bird!!
@@alexiachimciuc3199 Birds were replaced by Sauron in 1450 TA with spies that watch us. The birds all work for the bourgeoisie.
No one can give up the ring
Because Sauron would have seen them.
Horses run at 50 miles per hour and eagles fly at 20 miles per hour.
Well. I'm no expert in LOTR lore, like or any of the other channels I watch.
But flying them would have cut out 3/4 of the trilogy. Thus making it dull and boring.