Towards the end of the video I have had to mute some short segments of Gandalf speaking due to a copyright claim. It's only about ten seconds, but it is very annoying for me and you, the viewer. There are full subtitles on all of my videos that show what is being said - hopefully it doesn't affect your viewing experience too much. Anyway, feel free to join the Patreon for $1 so I don't have to worry about a month of work getting demonetized, and so that you can see the videos early and free of UA-cam adverts, along with bonus videos, behind the scenes stuff and more: www.patreon.com/pentexproductions
You have every right to include those segments under the principle of Fair Use; but of course your rights as a human being are completely ignored by UA-cam's mindless computers and the even more mindless suits who exploit them.
The film 1917 missed a trick. They could have had a post-credit scene where a German officer calls out, "Corporal! Come here. I have a job for you. What's your name, Corporal?" Camera shows the back of a German soldier. "Hitler, sir." "Well, Corporal Hitler. If you can fulfill this task you will help change history." Close up of a moustached face, eyes shining. 'To be continued...'
@@misterchris3491 I do hope we get that movie, watching the Kingsmen fight nazis would be fun. We are still allowed to enjoy beating nazis, right? And there are plenty of real world people it could be inspired by, like Ian Fleming, and, dare I say it, Chistopher Lee?
Really great job here! I couldn’t agree more - the callbacks are far too many and none land as intended because they aren’t done as well and/or are misused completely. Ironically, the story of Annatar and the Fall of Numenor have the chance to be SUCH different and unique stories if they allow it to be.
Thank you Matt - this means so much coming from you. You're the best Tolkien creator out there bar none, and I always value the passion, expertise and nuance you bring to Middle-earth. Love your work.
Wow, it's almost like they're taking from the same author and wanting to add to the same pool of lore a story that hasn't been told on the screen before
The problem isnt that its a prequel, the problem is that its bad. A faithful adaptation of the downfall of Numenor would be amazing. A faithful adaptation of any of Tolkiens First Age stories like the Children of Hurin or the story of Beren and Luthien would be amazing, and technically a prequel.
I was going to make the same point, but thought I'd check first to see if someone else had. The show has terrible writing and the new plot they came up with (in lieu of actually using Tolkien's) is actively offensive to the intellect. The constant callbacks to Jackson's films do make it worse, but mostly because they remind viewers that, oh yeah, someone else did a LOTR adaptation that wasn't a dumpster fire.
"It's bad" isn't really helping us understand though. While being a prequel isn't inherently a problem, it is a problem when the whole thing seems only interested in showing you how the thing you love came to be instead of telling its own story. This isn't a problem exclusive to prequels and this kind of fan pandering is something all over mainstream media these days, but I do think it's harder to avoid with prequels as the conclusion of them would lead you to the status quo of the thing you already love.
@@PauLtus_B Well yeah because they picked the forging of the rings which is really not an interesting story, its barely a footnote in the books. The entire story of the downfall of Numenor would be a tragedy for the ages that would stand on its own without tying it into the movies.
You know what's funny? That "elvish medicine" line from LOTR refers to Vilya - a ring of power with the ability of healing, which was in possession of Elrond. But in the timeline of Rings of Power show, the rings weren't made yet. That certain line in the show was an absolute anachronism. 🤷♂️
Furthermore, Aragorn refers to something which they need but lack. Having short, discount Galadriel referring to her own medicine as Elvish medicine would be like a modern surgeon in a modern hospital turning to his anaesthetist and murmuring, “We need to perform modern, Western, science-based medical practices on this here patient immediately!”
I've said it before, but Amazon should NOT have started their Middle-earth universe with the Second Age. They don't have access to the Silmarillion, and almost everything they forced in-Hobbits, wizards, balrogs, evil cults of Sauron, GoT-esque politicking-just aren't a part of the Second Age's thematic pallette. But do you know what DOES have all that? The life of Earnur, last king of Gondor. The White Council is formed, the Rings of Power are in active use, the Hobbits helped fight the Witch-king's army in the North, the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor squabble and collapse in the face of evil (forming the Dunedain), the ancestors of Rohan and the Dunlendings get their beef, and the Balrog blows up Moria leading to the founding of Erebor... all that and more in like a 100-year stretch and in the lifespan of Gondor's final king, AND it's all in the ROTK Appendices. That could be a hell of a 5-season story.
Movies: "What is this new devilry?" - Boromir holding a torch in Moria, facing the camera Rings of Power: "What devilry is this?" - Elven soldier holding a torch in a cave, facing the camera
Exactly the same scene the 'We should never have come here' line in the video is from. The same scene where Galadriel's fellowship then encounter a troll. Not a stretch to imagine where the inspo for that scene came from.
@@cholst1 If you take a shot every time the show copies a shot or line from the film trilogy it turns into a fun drinking game. And by fun, I mean a quick way to have alcohol poisoning.
They keep describing Galadriel as this immature young elf that's yet to grow into the calm, wise figure we see in the Lord of the Rings, but it's no secret that she's already many thousands of years old at the time the show takes place.
So true. By that point she must have been like five or six thousend years (I don't know how canon that is, but I read that she was like 8000 by the time of the War of the Ring), an even in her youth she was incredibly wise. It would have been canon to make her maybe a bit arrogant or just a little bit power hungry, since she came to Middle-Earth desiring lands to rule, but she shouldn't be rash or immature.
To me, the fact that the writers thought of the show as a series of mystery boxes (and therefore, they needed to change things from the books or else book readers would spoil the plot and kill the buzz), reflects the worst possible trends in today's television.
Yes, two very different rallies. Theoden cries of battle and bravery in the face of the enemy. And Eomer - surrounded and thinking his sister and uncle/king dead, - cries for "death, and the world ending". It shouldn't actually work, as it's intentionally written as complete opposites and Jackson combined them as they were cool-sounding. But it works well enough for to the overall tone of the scene.
@@JackChurchill101 You're right, and I think he also combined them because it wouldn't work for a movie to have too many motivational speeches in too short a period of time from too many people, especially when we wait for battle to start/go on. It would be the "too many endings" problem but in the middle of the action. Another reason why it works for the movie is because Theoden does die in that battle, so him yelling "death" is also a mix of foreshadowing and us understanding he is ready to go there.
@@JackChurchill101 It does work as a conclusion to Theodens arc, he starts out, well, after being freed from Sarumans influence, as afraid to go to war because his son died in the war, and he is afraid for his lineage and his people. At the end, he no longer fears death and bravely rides into battle knowing it would likely get him killed and a lot of his soldiers as well. But he still goes, and thanks to him, and and Aragorn arriving with reinforcements on the ships captured from the corsairs of Umbar (plus, in the movie, the army of the dead) they are able to lift the siege and ultimately secure victory. Jackson made a bunch of changes to characters and events but all of them work in the films, I dont harbor any resentment for it, it was done with some respect for the source material. Unlike modern adaptations of fantasy books which just butcher everything. Rings of Power, Wheel of TIme, that god awful Dark Tower movie, Artemis Fowl. At this point i just wish they would stop making fantasy tv shows and movies.
@@JackChurchill101Book Théoden's speech also has a central theme of honorably fulfilling oaths of friendship between peoples and of willing self-sacrifice. "Ride now! Ride now, ride to [the rescue of] Gondor!" is much more in line with Théoden's character and motivation than "Death!". Théoden isn't there to die (though that is a sacrifice he is willing to make if necessary), he is there to fulfill the Oath of Eorl and come to the aid of his Gondorian friends and allies.
Yep, many of the great LOTR movie speeches are mash-ups of various lines from other scenes and characters, or other bits re-contextualised. Great adaptation work. But Theoden's speech in the books is still brilliant: ua-cam.com/video/lgQqYTH1lQQ/v-deo.html
Excellent video. There are other criticisms I have of the show relating to theme. They’ve switched out universal human problems for current day political issues in some cases. The Numenoreans resent the elves because of xenophobia, but they’re supposed to resent them because they envy their immortality and relationship with the Valar. That’s just one. They have also messed up the Great Rings by making the elves aware of Sauron’s involvement too soon
He really did have a way with words. I guess that's only natural for someone whose livelihood was studying them. Perhaps that's what makes the Legendarium so great - it was written by a linguist.
Another issue with the show vs the trilogy would also be the quality of the acting - you go from the likes of Cate Blanchett, Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellen, Hugo Weaving, Andy Serkis, Karl Urban, Sean Bean, Ian Holm, Bernard Hill and Christopher Lee who have delved deeply into Tolkien's work and can deliver complex and layered performances to actors who just don't have that same range or ability.
So you need women to always be pleasant looking and smiling, refraning from showing any real emotion ortaking initiative and doing things of importance or fighting, instead just looking pretty and serving pretty face in this fantasy world @lolloblue9646
@@Gothicsock Thats first of all not true in the Lord of the Rings or any of the background lore. There were plenty of women who did important things. Galadriel denouncing Feanor and refusing to take the ships to Middle Earth with him, instead traveling by foot over the Helcaraxe. Luthien and Beren stealing a Silmaril from Morgoths crown. Melian protecting Doriath from evil with her magic. And in the Third Age, during the War of the Ring, as depicted in the films, the heroic actions of women like Arwen, who refused to go into the West and chose love and duty to the mortal world, over her own fathers wish, Galadriel who uses her wisdom and magic to help the fellowship while (off screen) fighting against the forces of Dol Guldur, defeating several massive armies of orcs who walk into her forest. Eowyn literally rides into battle with the men and kills the witch-king almost single-handedly. You have to be absolutely daft to think that people like LOTR and its universe because women just sit around looking pretty. The problem with ROP isnt that it has a strong female character or two, the problem is that it is bad and cringe, most of the actors cant act, the dialogue is worse than what I would have written when I was fifteen, it looks cheap and the story doesnt make sense and butchers the established lore of the world.
@@Gothicsock I have an issue with that being the default face instead of something neutral, if that's what your loaded question is asking. I, unlike some others, can tell the difference between badass women and a walking talking trope. There was such an example of a badass woman in the First Age: Haleth, leader of her people after her father and brother died, and she was a damn good leader.
@@GothicsockUgh, I just eye-rolled so hard, they nearly fell out. We want strong female characters that make sense in the setting, not divas who are undeservedly arrogant, overly assertive, and needlessly combative in every single scene they're in. Think more Ripley/Éowyn and less Rey/Admiral Holdo/Guyladriel. Galadriel is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in Middle-earth, and RoP reduced her to an unlikable Mary Sue. A shame.
These things need to be called out. Give talented people money to make good things. This phenomenon of recent years where so many mediocre retreats have be made, needs to end.
Yes! 100% and the huge amounts of money these budgets are given is insane. What happened to working your way up to directing and creating/being in charge of big projects AFTER you've shown that you are able to handle it and are a good and hard worker who isn't full of hubris. Heck, be big headed, whatever. As long as you're not an a-hole and you have the talent to back up your big words, fine! I don't even care haha just deliver a quality product. Sometimes projects turn out bad for a multitude of reasons but we've all seen movies and shows where the budget lacked, there were issues with the writing, but the actors and crew worked hard and took it seriously enough that THAT managed to show through and were like, it's not good but you can tell they didn't take the piss out of their audience and at least tried to work with what they had. (The Acolyte comes to mind for a director who is drinking her own Kool-aid, lol.)
Quite often, giving LESS money to talented people makes them make something better because they have to think critically about how they use their resources, and pay attention to what is needed to tell the story most effectively. If you give a first time showrunner an infinite budget then of course it's going to end up feeling a bit like fan faction because the possibilities are literally endless. Creativity often needs restraints.
Orc aversion to sunlight is used in the Jackson movies. It’s mentioned in fellowship, the Uruk hai are able to move in sunlight at helms deep, and Mordor spreads its encroaching shadow to reach Gondor to keep the armies in the shade. The actual ‘burning’ of orc skin in RoP however, is an Amazon invention.
A very thorough and fair take on the prequel problem. Thank you. I’d also like to point out the similarities between the attack on the southlands with the climax of the film Three Amigos. For some reason it has stuck in my mind every time I’ve watched it. i can’t help but think of The three amigos prepping the peaceful villagers of Santa Poco for the looming arrival of the evil El Guapo and his goons.
that horn from the rohirrim when the the witch king was getting ready to smite gandalf after shattering his staff and all seemed bleak. god, it still sends shivers down my spine.
The Sauron mystery feels a lot like the Dragon Reborn mystery in the Wheel of Time adaptation on Amazon. Flawed, but as if someone at Amazon was giving notes that we need a mystery like that.
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t It also means you can't develope the character who is supposed to be your main hero or villain because doing so would give away the mystery, so you end up with a half-baked protagonist/antagonist.
@@antonjohansson3819 It really isn't intended to be much of a mystery in Eye of the World. The book literally opens with a cut from LTT dying to Rand on the road to town, something which is used in literature to draw a parallel between two people. And in between you get a prophecy that says "let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time", specifically pointing to his rebirth. I firmly believe that Jordan did not intend anyone who was paying attention to be confused as to what Rand was, it was simply kept a secret from him by Moiraine because nobody in their right mind would want to be the Dragon Reborn. And in the TV show they have the characters yearning for it. It's a complete betrayal of the central theme of the series, i.e. that being the chosen one would suck in a realistic scenario.
They've copied the homework of Peter Jackson, made something "safe" that would make money, and then pushed it out. The Rings of Power is simply Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, re-written for the modern zeitgeist.
You insult Jackson's obvious work of love, attention to detail and adherence to the actual written text by any comparison with Rings of Power. Any at all.
But the orc sensitivity to sunlight was brought up and a main point of the Jackson trilogy. It was the reason for why the Uruk-hai created by Saruman were such an increased threat, because the Uruk-hai could travel and wage war by day as well.
@@NigelIncubatorJonesthe movies didn't explain it well at all but orcs are actually not exactly... Easy to control. They're quite factional and prone to go rouge. That's another reason why the Uruk-Hai are made, to actually have some level of discipline.
@@Matt_History Indeed. Plenty of infighting based on their own motivations. Tolkien showed it very well in those chapters where we get to meet the orcs, particularly ch. 3 of TTT, "The Uruk-hai". There were probably three factions present, and Uglúk had to assert his authority and will over all of them. Later we see it again among the orcs of Cirith Ungol vs. those of Minas Morgul, and then the snuffling tracker and the bigger guard. They often argued and fought among themselves. The movies would have been far better had they trimmed 10 minutes or so from the battle of Helm's Deep and used that time to have the actual orc dialog from the Uruk-hai chapter. It's excellent, and gives a nice insight into the orcish mindset. But nope, they felt they had to dumb it down, for whatever stupid reason, and the movies suffered for it. And many other stupid decisions besides.
@@NigelIncubatorJones they also would have done a bit better too have the section of the book where the two orcs argue over whether or not the war was going to be won and ended with one killing the other so he could desert
@@Matt_History Yes, indeed. The few places in the books with orc dialog are, pardon the expression, Precious. Good movies need good villains, and it's much better if they have dialog so we can get to know them. The conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag, which Sam overhears, also gives insight into orcish culture. When discussing Shelob, one asks if the other remembers old Ufthak, whom they found hanging in one of her webs, but they didn't cut him down, even though he was glaring at them, because they were afraid of angering her. But they did laugh at him! That gives a great insight into what makes orcs such ugly creatures. It's not so much their physical ugliness as their moral ugliness--they delight in the misfortune of others, for example. And, like you, I love the conversation between the snuffling tracker and the bigger orc. Great stuff. The movies would have been more than a bit better, now that I think of it, had they used more of this dialog verbatim. More screen time for the Uruk-hai chapter would have also allowed them to show the different factions of the orcs involved. They could show the Uruk-hai with the sign of the White Hand, and show Grishnakh's lads with the Red Eye emblem on their shields. It would have been a great visual clue to the audience as to why they were arguing. Grishnakh and Ugluk had a lot of great lines in the book.
It is an unfortunate thing that the word 'prequel' is popularly misunderstood to mean 'back-story' (a fairly recent word that came out of screenwriting) even if it was written first. So people call 'The Hobbit' (book) a 'prequel' and seem genuinely at a loss to think of a correct word like 'prelude' or 'prologue'.
The Hobbit book (There and Back Again) is neither a prequel or a prelude, and certainly isn't a prologue. It was written as a stand-alone story. The Lord of the Rings was, however, a sequel, building on the success and the story of The Hobbit. LOTR, of course, has its own prologue, which covers some of the events of The Hobbit as well as wider lore about Hobbits, The Shire, etc.
Good point. If a story happened before something we already like it is just written as "backstory". How did Han Solo get such a funny sounding name? We'll write a scene for that!
Yep, the term prequel only became widespread when Star Wars Episode I came out. The Hobbit book is of course not a prequel to LOTR. But the Hobbit movies (not book, obviously) were made as prequels to the LOTR movies (not books) because they were made after the LOTR movies in order to build on the success of those movies, and are designed to directly tie the stories together. So The Hobbit movies serve the exact same function as a sequel. But because they takes place earlier in the universe's narrative than the original work, they are called prequels. You wouldn't call Star Wars Episode VII an 'appendix' or 'epilogue.'
14:05 - About Numenorians going to the "southlands". I find this sentence quite hilarious because from perspective of the Numenor whole Middle-Earth was in the north :)
This is one of the best takes i've heard in regards to my feelings about the source material. Its simply fanfare for the movies... not Tolkien's vision.
@@haalandfilms1695 one of the things that made the Uruk-Hai so terrifying was that they weren't affected by sunlight. i think you could argue that the whole reason Sauron blackened the sky for the siege of Minas Tirith is to allow the orcs to be there at all.
I love that little smirk from Tolkien after his "The made thing, unless it says something, it won't be remembered". Art without a voice is empty. Also, great video! One of the best critiques of the show I've come over.
Wonderful video!! 👏 You explained things so well! I haven't watched all of season 1, I believe I still need to watch the last episode. You caught SO many more things than I did and that's why I'm so glad to have watched this. I learn a lot from your videos!
I feel like the orcs aversion to sunlight is shown in the Jackson trilogy, at the end of Helm's Deep when Gandalf & The Rohirim shows up. I also feel the dark clouds of mordor expanding is referenced, but that memory is a bit muddled at present.
Sunlight is complicated in the Tolkien world, because it's actually an angel driving over the sky like the Egyptian god Ra, and orcs hate it. They were also bred in caves, so fear and hate that bright angelic light. But the regular basic orcs run over the pains in daylight in Rohan, when pursued. They're not vampires!
It's not as explicit in the Jackson movies as it is in ROP, but yes there are suggestions (i.e. references to Uruk-Hai being able to move in sunlight).
Not asking Peter Jackson for input whilst also getting Howard Shore to compose the main theme is so weird. Pick a lane, do you want this to be its own thing or not?
So they're talentless hacks who thought they could phone in a series as long as it echoed beats similar to the Jackson movies, and all the talk about going back to Tolkien and staying faithful to the canonical writing was just an attempt to deceive the more gullible viewers. Seems right.
It doesnt echo the movies at all though, they just lift a few lines and shots, the overall tone is completely different. The talk about going back to the books is just cope, they know they didnt do that, they know they didnt want to do that, but they know its what people wanted them to do, so thats why they say it.
I think the more likely explanation is that they're hacks. Salting in some references to the books and earlier movies IS "staying faithful to canon" in their minds.
My issue with The Rings of Power is the fact that Halbrand was revealed to the elves as Sauron before all the rings were completed…but they still take and wear the rings knowing they were inspired and made by Sauron. This makes them all look REALLY stupid! There should have been hints of Sauron in Halbrand that was only revealed to the audience. And he could have went from Halbrand to Annatar without any of the characters knowing who he really is. This way the robes wielding the rings would have made sense.
First of all, thanks for the generally straight forward analysis on why certain things don't work in this series without all of the sarcasm and jabs.There are actually things I like it about it (usually centered around the dwarves because I'm more curious to see dwarf society) but otherwise find other plot points to be a little lackluster. I'm glad you pointed out the issues of trying to technically copy Jackon's films rather than adapt from the text. I am by no means a Tolkien fan or expert. I've only read The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy along with seeing Jackson's films and other animated adaptations. I've not read the Silmarillion and I doubt I'll ever be up for doing that. So I was more open than most to seeing what the series could do. They're definitely good at recreating the visuals and tones from Jackson's films. But as you've pointed out by using other franchise examples, that's a problem, mainly with relying heavily on audience familiarity rather than introducing the world anew. I'm probably who the show is trying to cater to and I was definitely up for an original story without feeling like it was somehow betraying the original text. But based only on the fact that it is trying to copy the Jackson films, it's not a good frame work. Definitely has clunky editing (and I have no problem saying I don't care for the Harfoots.) Ultimately, there are small things I like about it, but just watching this second season I feel more bored and disconnected than I should.
This is a fantastic video. Of course many of us caught those moments where they're cribbing Jackson, but there's so many more than even I realized, and so many more of those than moments where someone who's read the appendices or The Silmarillion will be delighted or rewarded by a reference to one of those characters or moments. The fact that the writers don't even seem to realize that their primary inspiration is the Jackson movies is especially appalling.
"... something of a lightning rod for criticism by people who aren't really interested in actually talking about the show itself." That is just on point and a shame those "critics" with dumb thumbnails and little to non lore background get so much views.. they obv ignore the writings of tolkien himself if they can instead say "ItS thE WOKE WRITERS!!!!11!" and get the hatetrain going. In general thank you for this nice summary, I think many of us are wondering what exactly it is thats bothering us in this show.
Totally agree - and also the flourishes that Jackson put in his adaptations (for instance the dark storm cloud over the charge of the Rohan riders at the siege of Gondor). I do not know if this was real or CGI but it was brilliant.
Pentex - well done. There's way more messed up than what you covered, and you make great points. Just remember, "The Rings (of Power), must be destroyed. We must take it to the fires of Mt. Doom! One of you must do this."
Very decent analysis. -'It's a hollow experience, because all the dramatic moments are lifted without context from other works.' Yes the costumes are cheap, the acting terrible, the dialogue worse, and the directing flat, but it's been difficult to put a finger on why it fails for almost everyone.
I think if Jackson's Rings trilogy represents the best of early 2000s fantasy storytelling then ROP represents "the best" of what we get in fantasy storytelling today: a handsomely expensive production full of callbacks that remind us of earlier, better efforts but fail to break any new ground.
The issue this video addresses, stems from a fundamental problem with how this show came to be. The two showrunners, whose names shall not be uttered in the speech of men or elves, wrote a bad Game of Thrones fanfiction story when that show was popular over a decade ago. After they failed to sell it to any studio, years later, Amazon acquired the rights to LOTR. And they didnt have a clue what to do with it. So these two guys changed some names of characters and locations in their bad fanfic, went to Amazon and said, look, we have a script for you. In their ignorance and desperation Amazon greenlit this abomination. And then they storyboarded it blatantly ripping off some dialogue and shots from the LOTR movies, badly, and thats how we got this show. It isnt Tolkien, it isnt LOTR, its bad OC.
Absolutely spot on as an analysis of the problem. It makes you wonder if the RoP creators themselves even realise the "trap" they've fallen into, of their own making. I bet they haven't.
Tolkien also had a problem writing Galadriel back into his legendarium. So many different versions and out-workings of her flaws - which apparently sat dormant until the second age? Haha, it’s beautiful but always contradicting! RoP’s writing is emphasizing Sauron’s mirroring capabilities and Galadriel’s Moon-like and Venus-like qualities. This is where their creative license shines. She’s only halfway through her arc and she is wonderful. Her grief and isolation (remember Melkor is corrupted through isolation) explains her erratic behavior. I am so excited for Celeborn’s introduction! I don’t mind the callbacks to Jackson or other famous film moments (Godzilla and Jaws combined, for example) because they are opening a dialogue between them…which would exist because it IS made afterward. Might as well lean into the connections. LOVED Galadriel being compared to Bilbo and Frodo in season 2.
I'm planning to make a short film about The First & Second Ages in the coming years and videos like this are extremely useful for suggesting what NOT to do. While I plan to use the film art department designs for costumes, props, and sets, I'm actively trying to avoid all of these tropes and focus more on mundane things that happen in _The Silmarillion_ rather than grand epic moments requiring too many callbacks and way too much money. Also, finding someone pretty enough to play Annatar will be a challenge.
The Jackson movies do indeed make note of the orcs moving in daylight. They never explicitly explain that they avoid sunlight but they do state that it is odd that they would be in it even for an important mission like delivering what they thought was the one ring. If I’m correct Legolas makes mention of it during the first half of the two towers while they are running to catch up with the orc pack.
That was from the scenes around Amon Hen when they spot Orcs on the east bank of the Anduin during the day. And it is said that they would only risk going out in plain sunlight if the Eye of Sauron is upon them and if their masters whipped them very hard. The scene youre thinking of is when they are chasing the Uruks from Isengard after they capture Merry and Pippin.
I just love that somewhat mischievous, but very infectious smile of Tolkien at the end. But you hit the nail on the head imo, the show is very empty and tries to replicate the Jackson trilogy ag every turn, but also does it poorly at every turn. That’s why people react so strongly against it… and also why I don’t, because there are really only two options: either the show will not improve and be cancelled and then forgotten or it will improve dramatically and become a really good show, like Star Trek TNG which was beyond bad in its early seasons with few exceptions. And then this show will be remembered fondly as a great show, but the first season is a bit rough. Either way, I‘m fine with it, although I think more is to be gained by everyone if the latter is the case. Until then, see you around guys.
Speaking of things that people have to have a fore knowledge of in order to enjoy, did anybody else feel like Oppenheimer was a mess unless you knew what was going on because you knew the history? I kind of felt like that was the case anyway great video thanks
Shes Welsh, and also the speech coaches on this show are very bad at their job and made everyone talk in cringe instead of something resembling pre-modern English. Theyre putting way too much emphasis on the R's. A person with an English accent that naturally rolls their R's doesnt speak like that. Just ask an actual scotsman or someone from up north.
This is one of the few criticisms of RoP that I’ve seen that isn’t completely falling into the culture war garbage so many youtube “essayists” like to throw out. I did like RoP overall and I think season 2 is much better than the first but I’m not being overly critical I just think they’re neat.
It is refreshing to see a detailed criticism of this show that isn't just someone clucking the word "woke" ad nauseum. The problems with this show lie in the writing, not in having a female lead nor an elf with an excess of melanin.
@@RictusHolloweye When people say she is an "mary sue" it makes no sense to me. She is 3000 years old in rings of power so I would expect her to be an expert in most everything especially since she is a wartime general. It would be like complaining that Yoda destroys everyone in his path if a tv show was made about yoda say 200 years before phantom menace.
I don't think 'copying' the basics of a scene is necessarily bad, the problem is that they are copying it for a different narrative where it just doesn't work. If rings of power ripped off the scene where Sam says he can't carry the ring but he can carry him, and did it with Poppy and Nori, it wouldn't work because nobody cares about Poppy and Nori and their friendship, and whatever reason they would come up with for it happening would be disjointed because they were working backwards (we want x to happen, how do we get there) and it lacks the depth of the original. And if copying scenes for nostalgia bait is bad because most people wont get it, why is it that basically nobody who gets the references, likes them? If the only reason for a certain scene is nostalgia, it is almost certainly going to be bad, because the reasons that made the original memorable are completely removed, and all we have is a sort of reminder of something better.
I can’t exactly put my finger on it, but the show, and the shows character feels kind of like a RPG cosplay gathering, whereas in Jackson’s triology, they look and feel real.
Prequels: "I'm not confident I can make a new story in a new world, so I'm going to chronicle useless details of better story and world in the past. Give me credit." -Lazy Hack Writer
I just wish that one day these big Hollywood producers and authors would swallow their pride and get off their high horse and listen to videos like these For it is of great value to them to fix their mistakes or at least help stir them
I’ve been trying to figure out why people hate this show so much and finally someone has made me understand why. For me it was like a boring game of thrones but I didn’t expect it to be better so I was always happy or could tolerate what we got. The series always felt kinda off but I couldn’t figure out why. I honestly couldn’t understand the backlash until now.
I do think the ultimate issue with the Rings of Power season 1 is the real lack of rewatchability with it, mainly down to the "mysteries". So many scenes are there just to make you second guess who's who and dropping hints, so on the rewatch its utterly boring.
But it was already obvious before the first episode aired which actor was Sauron. Hes the only young, goodlooking masculine dude in the series. The guy playing Elendil could qualify as masculine, but he is too old looking to be an immortal being that is supposed to present itself in a fair form. Even Gil-Galad looks like he drinks soy latte's for breakfast, and he is supposed to be one of the most badass elves in Middle Earth at that time. The last high king of the Noldor.
It was not easy to get through the re-watch for making this video. Very little about the stories or characters works to invest you in the narrative in it's own right, without relying on audience's pre-existing warmth towards LOTR.
@@PentexProductions LOTR Trilogy is hands down my favorite movie ever l, besides maybe the original Matrix movie, and knowing those movies from heart and being able to quote every line of dialogue with the movie on mute without subtitles, i can tell you that my heart wasn't warmed at all by RoP. Cast it into the fire!
@@PentexProductions I completely understand this. I watched ROP at the same time as House Of The Dragon and the contrast in my feelings towards the characters in the two shows couldn't have been more different. In HOTD I cared about the the fates of the characters and found their relationships with one another and their motivations interesting. In ROP I felt...nothing.
I really enjoyed this criticism on Rings of Power, Its refreshing to listen to critiques about the show material and what it has done wrong instead of the rage bait hate videos. I am curious, you touched on it throughout the video but what do you think is necessary to make this show work going forward?
16 million viewed the trailer at least. The show is #1 on Prime in several countries, most likely because they are catching up/rewatching. I'm not saying the show is this incredible flawless thing or anything, but I'm actually pretty excited for it.
Im looking forward to watching Jeff Bezos burn more money and having a good laugh at how bad it is. Any dollar he cant spend on more phallus shaped rockets is a dollar well spent.
@@himmelektronik thats fine mate and a fair point and I’d never judge anyone for liking anything. Anything that gives people enjoyment is inherently a lovely thing. Hope you enjoy season 2 when it gets here Just personally I have lost interest in it
This is honestly my main issue with Rings of Power, I watched it as it was coming out, and it was just boring. I wish it could have just been allowed to be it's own thing. I just wish they could realize people are not looking for more of the Jackson trilogy, we just want adaptions that can stand on their own.
The two showrunners of this shitty fanfiction had been shipping their game of thrones ripoff around for over a decade before they got the opportunity to get it greenlit by a desperate Amazon that had just paid hundreds of millions of dollars to axquire the rights to LOTR and had 0 idea what to do with it. If LOTR is Twilight, this show is Fifty Shades of Grey.
@TheSuperappelflap OK, calm down. You're acting like me over six months ago. The show is not the worst thing to ever exist, It just committed the horrible sin of being boring. I recommend checking out the production of this show. It shows they did talent in there and passion. It's just that that passion went to a lot of the wrong things, and the show wanted to be the Jackson trilogy too much. Plus, I would not evan call this the worst adaption of Tolkiens' works.
@@Sirlance3000 well, I think it's just about the worst TV show i have ever watched, and i have seen a lot of bad tv. The story was nonsensical, the casting was bad, the acting was bad, the dialogue was extremely bad, like something a pretentious 15 year old would write, the costumes were bad, the cgi looked blurry and lacked detail, it had no sense of place or scale, the fight choreography was bad, the different storylines didn't come together, the "mystery" of who Sauron was, i already guessed before the first episode aired, it completely ignores all existing lore, and it had no redeeming qualities whatsoever
@TheSuperappelflap I agree with everything you said so fair enough. Man, those fight sceens... I'm having flash backs of them now. Those were terrible for sure.
The reason that the show is "a lightning rod for criticism" is because ilthe show and the directors of the show earned. They did a poor job and called you, me, and every fan with any legitimate criticism a racist, a bigot, etc.. Great video. ❤️👍
I wish this was just a direct prequel to Jacksonverse rather than loose adaptation of both Silmarillion (through the LOTR texts) and the films. If it was aknowledged as a Jacksonverse show they could make the artstyle of everything much more consistent and not keep trying to get around the licencing issues by modifying existing designs a bit (the elven rings look VERY similar to the film design, they are just enlarged) and the story could just flow more organically with Jackson's canon in mind, instead of trying to pretend it's Jacksonverse by forced references while it cannot be officially.
Towards the end of the video I have had to mute some short segments of Gandalf speaking due to a copyright claim. It's only about ten seconds, but it is very annoying for me and you, the viewer. There are full subtitles on all of my videos that show what is being said - hopefully it doesn't affect your viewing experience too much.
Anyway, feel free to join the Patreon for $1 so I don't have to worry about a month of work getting demonetized, and so that you can see the videos early and free of UA-cam adverts, along with bonus videos, behind the scenes stuff and more: www.patreon.com/pentexproductions
You have every right to include those segments under the principle of Fair Use; but of course your rights as a human being are completely ignored by UA-cam's mindless computers and the even more mindless suits who exploit them.
Any chance you'll look into publishing on Nebula?
At the time of me posting this comment, The subtitles during the muted segment are missing (Was using the mobile app)
Tbh I didn't need the subtitles, I know the phrase way too well 😂❤
"You bow to no one"
The film 1917 missed a trick. They could have had a post-credit scene where a German officer calls out, "Corporal! Come here. I have a job for you. What's your name, Corporal?"
Camera shows the back of a German soldier.
"Hitler, sir."
"Well, Corporal Hitler. If you can fulfill this task you will help change history."
Close up of a moustached face, eyes shining.
'To be continued...'
You just described the post credit scene of The King's Man 😂
Of course at the time his name was Sickelgruber.
@@misterchris3491 I do hope we get that movie, watching the Kingsmen fight nazis would be fun. We are still allowed to enjoy beating nazis, right? And there are plenty of real world people it could be inspired by, like Ian Fleming, and, dare I say it, Chistopher Lee?
And as the screen cuts to black, the CSI: Miami theme song starts playing
Wake Up by Rage Against the Machine starts playing haha
Really great job here! I couldn’t agree more - the callbacks are far too many and none land as intended because they aren’t done as well and/or are misused completely.
Ironically, the story of Annatar and the Fall of Numenor have the chance to be SUCH different and unique stories if they allow it to be.
Thank you Matt - this means so much coming from you. You're the best Tolkien creator out there bar none, and I always value the passion, expertise and nuance you bring to Middle-earth. Love your work.
They are unironically one of the worst channels about Tolkien.
If you have to repeat so many times that you are different, it is because you are actually copying ...
It's good that I can always count on the youtube comments for wisdom like this
Wow, it's almost like they're taking from the same author and wanting to add to the same pool of lore a story that hasn't been told on the screen before
'He who must say 'I'm an original' is no true original.' ~ Tywagorn of Casterly Shire
Such many cases among certain groups of people.
I didn't know Tolkien wrote about orcs saying goodbye to their orc children and orc wives
The problem isnt that its a prequel, the problem is that its bad. A faithful adaptation of the downfall of Numenor would be amazing. A faithful adaptation of any of Tolkiens First Age stories like the Children of Hurin or the story of Beren and Luthien would be amazing, and technically a prequel.
I was going to make the same point, but thought I'd check first to see if someone else had.
The show has terrible writing and the new plot they came up with (in lieu of actually using Tolkien's) is actively offensive to the intellect. The constant callbacks to Jackson's films do make it worse, but mostly because they remind viewers that, oh yeah, someone else did a LOTR adaptation that wasn't a dumpster fire.
Tolkien Estate will never release Beren & Luthien. They'll become public domain in 2077/9?
"It's bad" isn't really helping us understand though.
While being a prequel isn't inherently a problem, it is a problem when the whole thing seems only interested in showing you how the thing you love came to be instead of telling its own story.
This isn't a problem exclusive to prequels and this kind of fan pandering is something all over mainstream media these days, but I do think it's harder to avoid with prequels as the conclusion of them would lead you to the status quo of the thing you already love.
@@PauLtus_B Well yeah because they picked the forging of the rings which is really not an interesting story, its barely a footnote in the books.
The entire story of the downfall of Numenor would be a tragedy for the ages that would stand on its own without tying it into the movies.
Without the rights to Silmarillion and other books, that would never happen tho.
You know what's funny? That "elvish medicine" line from LOTR refers to Vilya - a ring of power with the ability of healing, which was in possession of Elrond. But in the timeline of Rings of Power show, the rings weren't made yet. That certain line in the show was an absolute anachronism. 🤷♂️
Elves are just better at healing you dunce. Cope harder.
Furthermore, Aragorn refers to something which they need but lack. Having short, discount Galadriel referring to her own medicine as Elvish medicine would be like a modern surgeon in a modern hospital turning to his anaesthetist and murmuring, “We need to perform modern, Western, science-based medical practices on this here patient immediately!”
@@therealinformalmusic with all the woke media, that doesnt seem that unlikely today. i've seen wokes trying to cure cancer by drinking tea
I've said it before, but Amazon should NOT have started their Middle-earth universe with the Second Age. They don't have access to the Silmarillion, and almost everything they forced in-Hobbits, wizards, balrogs, evil cults of Sauron, GoT-esque politicking-just aren't a part of the Second Age's thematic pallette.
But do you know what DOES have all that? The life of Earnur, last king of Gondor. The White Council is formed, the Rings of Power are in active use, the Hobbits helped fight the Witch-king's army in the North, the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor squabble and collapse in the face of evil (forming the Dunedain), the ancestors of Rohan and the Dunlendings get their beef, and the Balrog blows up Moria leading to the founding of Erebor... all that and more in like a 100-year stretch and in the lifespan of Gondor's final king, AND it's all in the ROTK Appendices. That could be a hell of a 5-season story.
They had all the rights to have done a great second age series. They’re incompetent
Movies: "What is this new devilry?" - Boromir holding a torch in Moria, facing the camera
Rings of Power: "What devilry is this?" - Elven soldier holding a torch in a cave, facing the camera
Exactly the same scene the 'We should never have come here' line in the video is from. The same scene where Galadriel's fellowship then encounter a troll. Not a stretch to imagine where the inspo for that scene came from.
@@PentexProductions The Brego reenactment, Shelobs lair, the dead marshes kinda throwback. S2 is off to quite the start of "MEMBER THIS?"
@@cholst1 If you take a shot every time the show copies a shot or line from the film trilogy it turns into a fun drinking game. And by fun, I mean a quick way to have alcohol poisoning.
They keep describing Galadriel as this immature young elf that's yet to grow into the calm, wise figure we see in the Lord of the Rings, but it's no secret that she's already many thousands of years old at the time the show takes place.
So true. By that point she must have been like five or six thousend years (I don't know how canon that is, but I read that she was like 8000 by the time of the War of the Ring), an even in her youth she was incredibly wise. It would have been canon to make her maybe a bit arrogant or just a little bit power hungry, since she came to Middle-Earth desiring lands to rule, but she shouldn't be rash or immature.
Survives all the war & turmoil of the 1st age, leads her people across the ice. Somehow still immature and childish 😢lmfao
She's literally the only elf alive (in the show) that has seen the light of the 2 trees. She's older than every other elf in the show
@@travisscholes6588 hold on, it's the second age and they don't show CIRDAN?
@@lolloblue9646 nope. The only bearded elf and they don't put him in :(
To me, the fact that the writers thought of the show as a series of mystery boxes (and therefore, they needed to change things from the books or else book readers would spoil the plot and kill the buzz), reflects the worst possible trends in today's television.
The Theoden speech in the movie is a mixture of a speech given by Theoden at the same moment and a later one by Eomer after Theoden has been killed.
Yes, two very different rallies.
Theoden cries of battle and bravery in the face of the enemy. And Eomer - surrounded and thinking his sister and uncle/king dead, - cries for "death, and the world ending".
It shouldn't actually work, as it's intentionally written as complete opposites and Jackson combined them as they were cool-sounding. But it works well enough for to the overall tone of the scene.
@@JackChurchill101 You're right, and I think he also combined them because it wouldn't work for a movie to have too many motivational speeches in too short a period of time from too many people, especially when we wait for battle to start/go on. It would be the "too many endings" problem but in the middle of the action.
Another reason why it works for the movie is because Theoden does die in that battle, so him yelling "death" is also a mix of foreshadowing and us understanding he is ready to go there.
@@JackChurchill101 It does work as a conclusion to Theodens arc, he starts out, well, after being freed from Sarumans influence, as afraid to go to war because his son died in the war, and he is afraid for his lineage and his people. At the end, he no longer fears death and bravely rides into battle knowing it would likely get him killed and a lot of his soldiers as well. But he still goes, and thanks to him, and and Aragorn arriving with reinforcements on the ships captured from the corsairs of Umbar (plus, in the movie, the army of the dead) they are able to lift the siege and ultimately secure victory.
Jackson made a bunch of changes to characters and events but all of them work in the films, I dont harbor any resentment for it, it was done with some respect for the source material. Unlike modern adaptations of fantasy books which just butcher everything. Rings of Power, Wheel of TIme, that god awful Dark Tower movie, Artemis Fowl. At this point i just wish they would stop making fantasy tv shows and movies.
@@JackChurchill101Book Théoden's speech also has a central theme of honorably fulfilling oaths of friendship between peoples and of willing self-sacrifice.
"Ride now! Ride now, ride to [the rescue of] Gondor!" is much more in line with Théoden's character and motivation than "Death!".
Théoden isn't there to die (though that is a sacrifice he is willing to make if necessary), he is there to fulfill the Oath of Eorl and come to the aid of his Gondorian friends and allies.
Yep, many of the great LOTR movie speeches are mash-ups of various lines from other scenes and characters, or other bits re-contextualised. Great adaptation work. But Theoden's speech in the books is still brilliant: ua-cam.com/video/lgQqYTH1lQQ/v-deo.html
Excellent video. There are other criticisms I have of the show relating to theme. They’ve switched out universal human problems for current day political issues in some cases. The Numenoreans resent the elves because of xenophobia, but they’re supposed to resent them because they envy their immortality and relationship with the Valar. That’s just one. They have also messed up the Great Rings by making the elves aware of Sauron’s involvement too soon
derterkerjerrrrrrbs
Exactly lol
@@JohnDoe-jy7sv I'm sure there will be elves queueing up to shoe horses in Numenor.
@@LaJokanan Right, cause they have nothing better to do with their lives haha
What an amazing Tolkien interview response at the end there, thanks for sharing that.
He's got some banging quotes, old John Ronald.
He really did have a way with words. I guess that's only natural for someone whose livelihood was studying them. Perhaps that's what makes the Legendarium so great - it was written by a linguist.
Another issue with the show vs the trilogy would also be the quality of the acting - you go from the likes of Cate Blanchett, Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellen, Hugo Weaving, Andy Serkis, Karl Urban, Sean Bean, Ian Holm, Bernard Hill and Christopher Lee who have delved deeply into Tolkien's work and can deliver complex and layered performances to actors who just don't have that same range or ability.
I can't stand a Galadriel wearing a RBF
So you need women to always be pleasant looking and smiling, refraning from showing any real emotion ortaking initiative and doing things of importance or fighting, instead just looking pretty and serving pretty face in this fantasy world @lolloblue9646
@@Gothicsock Thats first of all not true in the Lord of the Rings or any of the background lore. There were plenty of women who did important things. Galadriel denouncing Feanor and refusing to take the ships to Middle Earth with him, instead traveling by foot over the Helcaraxe. Luthien and Beren stealing a Silmaril from Morgoths crown. Melian protecting Doriath from evil with her magic.
And in the Third Age, during the War of the Ring, as depicted in the films, the heroic actions of women like Arwen, who refused to go into the West and chose love and duty to the mortal world, over her own fathers wish, Galadriel who uses her wisdom and magic to help the fellowship while (off screen) fighting against the forces of Dol Guldur, defeating several massive armies of orcs who walk into her forest. Eowyn literally rides into battle with the men and kills the witch-king almost single-handedly.
You have to be absolutely daft to think that people like LOTR and its universe because women just sit around looking pretty.
The problem with ROP isnt that it has a strong female character or two, the problem is that it is bad and cringe, most of the actors cant act, the dialogue is worse than what I would have written when I was fifteen, it looks cheap and the story doesnt make sense and butchers the established lore of the world.
@@Gothicsock I have an issue with that being the default face instead of something neutral, if that's what your loaded question is asking.
I, unlike some others, can tell the difference between badass women and a walking talking trope.
There was such an example of a badass woman in the First Age: Haleth, leader of her people after her father and brother died, and she was a damn good leader.
@@GothicsockUgh, I just eye-rolled so hard, they nearly fell out.
We want strong female characters that make sense in the setting, not divas who are undeservedly arrogant, overly assertive, and needlessly combative in every single scene they're in.
Think more Ripley/Éowyn and less Rey/Admiral Holdo/Guyladriel.
Galadriel is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in Middle-earth, and RoP reduced her to an unlikable Mary Sue. A shame.
These things need to be called out. Give talented people money to make good things. This phenomenon of recent years where so many mediocre retreats have be made, needs to end.
Yes! 100% and the huge amounts of money these budgets are given is insane. What happened to working your way up to directing and creating/being in charge of big projects AFTER you've shown that you are able to handle it and are a good and hard worker who isn't full of hubris. Heck, be big headed, whatever. As long as you're not an a-hole and you have the talent to back up your big words, fine! I don't even care haha just deliver a quality product. Sometimes projects turn out bad for a multitude of reasons but we've all seen movies and shows where the budget lacked, there were issues with the writing, but the actors and crew worked hard and took it seriously enough that THAT managed to show through and were like, it's not good but you can tell they didn't take the piss out of their audience and at least tried to work with what they had. (The Acolyte comes to mind for a director who is drinking her own Kool-aid, lol.)
Quite often, giving LESS money to talented people makes them make something better because they have to think critically about how they use their resources, and pay attention to what is needed to tell the story most effectively. If you give a first time showrunner an infinite budget then of course it's going to end up feeling a bit like fan faction because the possibilities are literally endless. Creativity often needs restraints.
@@PentexProductionsit just was a bad story because they catterd to the crazy instead the real fans
It ends with not buying it lol. As long as enough do, crap gets made. That's the problem with the game company Bethesda.
Orc aversion to sunlight is used in the Jackson movies. It’s mentioned in fellowship, the Uruk hai are able to move in sunlight at helms deep, and Mordor spreads its encroaching shadow to reach Gondor to keep the armies in the shade. The actual ‘burning’ of orc skin in RoP however, is an Amazon invention.
A very thorough and fair take on the prequel problem. Thank you. I’d also like to point out the similarities between the attack on the southlands with the climax of the film Three Amigos. For some reason it has stuck in my mind every time I’ve watched it. i can’t help but think of The three amigos prepping the peaceful villagers of Santa Poco for the looming arrival of the evil El Guapo and his goons.
that horn from the rohirrim when the the witch king was getting ready to smite gandalf after shattering his staff and all seemed bleak. god, it still sends shivers down my spine.
The Sauron mystery feels a lot like the Dragon Reborn mystery in the Wheel of Time adaptation on Amazon. Flawed, but as if someone at Amazon was giving notes that we need a mystery like that.
The *obsession* with shoehorning mysteries into stories that don't need themis really, really annoying.
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t It also means you can't develope the character who is supposed to be your main hero or villain because doing so would give away the mystery, so you end up with a half-baked protagonist/antagonist.
Difference is that the mystery was in the original. It didnt work that well in the book and they should've scrapped it instead of expanding on it.
@@antonjohansson3819 It really isn't intended to be much of a mystery in Eye of the World. The book literally opens with a cut from LTT dying to Rand on the road to town, something which is used in literature to draw a parallel between two people. And in between you get a prophecy that says "let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time", specifically pointing to his rebirth. I firmly believe that Jordan did not intend anyone who was paying attention to be confused as to what Rand was, it was simply kept a secret from him by Moiraine because nobody in their right mind would want to be the Dragon Reborn. And in the TV show they have the characters yearning for it. It's a complete betrayal of the central theme of the series, i.e. that being the chosen one would suck in a realistic scenario.
It was like watching Line of Duty
They've copied the homework of Peter Jackson, made something "safe" that would make money, and then pushed it out. The Rings of Power is simply Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, re-written for the modern zeitgeist.
But ironically probably hasn't made money as it hasn't been very popular and cost Amazon a bomb!
You insult Jackson's obvious work of love, attention to detail and adherence to the actual written text by any comparison with Rings of Power. Any at all.
But the orc sensitivity to sunlight was brought up and a main point of the Jackson trilogy. It was the reason for why the Uruk-hai created by Saruman were such an increased threat, because the Uruk-hai could travel and wage war by day as well.
So could the other orcs. They just didn't perform as well. They didn't like sunlight, but they weren't vampires who turned to ash when it was shining.
@@NigelIncubatorJonesthe movies didn't explain it well at all but orcs are actually not exactly... Easy to control. They're quite factional and prone to go rouge. That's another reason why the Uruk-Hai are made, to actually have some level of discipline.
@@Matt_History Indeed. Plenty of infighting based on their own motivations. Tolkien showed it very well in those chapters where we get to meet the orcs, particularly ch. 3 of TTT, "The Uruk-hai". There were probably three factions present, and Uglúk had to assert his authority and will over all of them. Later we see it again among the orcs of Cirith Ungol vs. those of Minas Morgul, and then the snuffling tracker and the bigger guard. They often argued and fought among themselves. The movies would have been far better had they trimmed 10 minutes or so from the battle of Helm's Deep and used that time to have the actual orc dialog from the Uruk-hai chapter. It's excellent, and gives a nice insight into the orcish mindset. But nope, they felt they had to dumb it down, for whatever stupid reason, and the movies suffered for it. And many other stupid decisions besides.
@@NigelIncubatorJones they also would have done a bit better too have the section of the book where the two orcs argue over whether or not the war was going to be won and ended with one killing the other so he could desert
@@Matt_History Yes, indeed. The few places in the books with orc dialog are, pardon the expression, Precious. Good movies need good villains, and it's much better if they have dialog so we can get to know them. The conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag, which Sam overhears, also gives insight into orcish culture. When discussing Shelob, one asks if the other remembers old Ufthak, whom they found hanging in one of her webs, but they didn't cut him down, even though he was glaring at them, because they were afraid of angering her. But they did laugh at him! That gives a great insight into what makes orcs such ugly creatures. It's not so much their physical ugliness as their moral ugliness--they delight in the misfortune of others, for example. And, like you, I love the conversation between the snuffling tracker and the bigger orc. Great stuff. The movies would have been more than a bit better, now that I think of it, had they used more of this dialog verbatim. More screen time for the Uruk-hai chapter would have also allowed them to show the different factions of the orcs involved. They could show the Uruk-hai with the sign of the White Hand, and show Grishnakh's lads with the Red Eye emblem on their shields. It would have been a great visual clue to the audience as to why they were arguing. Grishnakh and Ugluk had a lot of great lines in the book.
Just snipets of the lotr speeches and I'm getting chills 😭
16:44 “…., ….! ….” truly the greatest speech of all time
lol
It is an unfortunate thing that the word 'prequel' is popularly misunderstood to mean 'back-story' (a fairly recent word that came out of screenwriting) even if it was written first. So people call 'The Hobbit' (book) a 'prequel' and seem genuinely at a loss to think of a correct word like 'prelude' or 'prologue'.
The Hobbit book (There and Back Again) is neither a prequel or a prelude, and certainly isn't a prologue. It was written as a stand-alone story.
The Lord of the Rings was, however, a sequel, building on the success and the story of The Hobbit. LOTR, of course, has its own prologue, which covers some of the events of The Hobbit as well as wider lore about Hobbits, The Shire, etc.
Precursor
Good point. If a story happened before something we already like it is just written as "backstory".
How did Han Solo get such a funny sounding name? We'll write a scene for that!
A prequel is a sequel that happens before the original movie. Since the Hobbit was written before LOTR, its not a prequel. That is how it works.
Yep, the term prequel only became widespread when Star Wars Episode I came out. The Hobbit book is of course not a prequel to LOTR.
But the Hobbit movies (not book, obviously) were made as prequels to the LOTR movies (not books) because they were made after the LOTR movies in order to build on the success of those movies, and are designed to directly tie the stories together.
So The Hobbit movies serve the exact same function as a sequel. But because they takes place earlier in the universe's narrative than the original work, they are called prequels. You wouldn't call Star Wars Episode VII an 'appendix' or 'epilogue.'
14:05 - About Numenorians going to the "southlands".
I find this sentence quite hilarious because from perspective of the Numenor whole Middle-Earth was in the north :)
The Southlands isnt even supposed to refer to the area Mordor is in, the Southlands is Harad. Harad literally means South, and Rhun means East.
I still laugh and die a little inside when I think of "I am good" 😂😂😂😅💀💀💀💀
Me too 😅😅😅
This is one of the best takes i've heard in regards to my feelings about the source material. Its simply fanfare for the movies... not Tolkien's vision.
Well said, man. This show had so much potential, yet they fell spectacularly on their face.
But sensitivity to light WAS discussed in the Jackson movies by Gandalf.
and Celeborn in the extended edition and Aragorn as well "by nightfall these hills will be swarming with Orcs!"
discussed among the characters, but the movies show the orcs in daylight
Also they were never vampires.
@@haalandfilms1695 one of the things that made the Uruk-Hai so terrifying was that they weren't affected by sunlight. i think you could argue that the whole reason Sauron blackened the sky for the siege of Minas Tirith is to allow the orcs to be there at all.
@@TheMonkeygoneape that's in the theatrical version too
I love that little smirk from Tolkien after his "The made thing, unless it says something, it won't be remembered". Art without a voice is empty. Also, great video! One of the best critiques of the show I've come over.
Wonderful video!! 👏 You explained things so well! I haven't watched all of season 1, I believe I still need to watch the last episode. You caught SO many more things than I did and that's why I'm so glad to have watched this. I learn a lot from your videos!
I feel like the orcs aversion to sunlight is shown in the Jackson trilogy, at the end of Helm's Deep when Gandalf & The Rohirim shows up. I also feel the dark clouds of mordor expanding is referenced, but that memory is a bit muddled at present.
Sunlight is complicated in the Tolkien world, because it's actually an angel driving over the sky like the Egyptian god Ra, and orcs hate it. They were also bred in caves, so fear and hate that bright angelic light. But the regular basic orcs run over the pains in daylight in Rohan, when pursued.
They're not vampires!
It's not as explicit in the Jackson movies as it is in ROP, but yes there are suggestions (i.e. references to Uruk-Hai being able to move in sunlight).
I love your channel, man. Keep up the good work!
Not asking Peter Jackson for input whilst also getting Howard Shore to compose the main theme is so weird. Pick a lane, do you want this to be its own thing or not?
So they're talentless hacks who thought they could phone in a series as long as it echoed beats similar to the Jackson movies, and all the talk about going back to Tolkien and staying faithful to the canonical writing was just an attempt to deceive the more gullible viewers.
Seems right.
It doesnt echo the movies at all though, they just lift a few lines and shots, the overall tone is completely different. The talk about going back to the books is just cope, they know they didnt do that, they know they didnt want to do that, but they know its what people wanted them to do, so thats why they say it.
I think the more likely explanation is that they're hacks. Salting in some references to the books and earlier movies IS "staying faithful to canon" in their minds.
I bet 19:22 the writer on the Rings of Power never read any of the books and saw the LOTR movies as an easy starting point/blueprint
Good choice on the slowed + reverb version for the backing music
11:05 "Halbrand was boinking Sauron"? I don't remember that from the show, but it certainly would have made it more interesting
Hahaha I thought that too
Now THAT would be a twist.
This is my favorite video on rings of power yet!
Finally! A non-politicize review of TRoP. Thank you, and good job on pointing out its fallacies
My issue with The Rings of Power is the fact that Halbrand was revealed to the elves as Sauron before all the rings were completed…but they still take and wear the rings knowing they were inspired and made by Sauron. This makes them all look REALLY stupid!
There should have been hints of Sauron in Halbrand that was only revealed to the audience. And he could have went from Halbrand to Annatar without any of the characters knowing who he really is. This way the robes wielding the rings would have made sense.
I'm sorry, you REWATCHED the show?! How!? Why?! I don't know man, I'm not sure I can trust your opinion anymore 😅
First of all, thanks for the generally straight forward analysis on why certain things don't work in this series without all of the sarcasm and jabs.There are actually things I like it about it (usually centered around the dwarves because I'm more curious to see dwarf society) but otherwise find other plot points to be a little lackluster. I'm glad you pointed out the issues of trying to technically copy Jackon's films rather than adapt from the text. I am by no means a Tolkien fan or expert. I've only read The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy along with seeing Jackson's films and other animated adaptations. I've not read the Silmarillion and I doubt I'll ever be up for doing that. So I was more open than most to seeing what the series could do. They're definitely good at recreating the visuals and tones from Jackson's films. But as you've pointed out by using other franchise examples, that's a problem, mainly with relying heavily on audience familiarity rather than introducing the world anew. I'm probably who the show is trying to cater to and I was definitely up for an original story without feeling like it was somehow betraying the original text. But based only on the fact that it is trying to copy the Jackson films, it's not a good frame work. Definitely has clunky editing (and I have no problem saying I don't care for the Harfoots.) Ultimately, there are small things I like about it, but just watching this second season I feel more bored and disconnected than I should.
This is a fantastic video. Of course many of us caught those moments where they're cribbing Jackson, but there's so many more than even I realized, and so many more of those than moments where someone who's read the appendices or The Silmarillion will be delighted or rewarded by a reference to one of those characters or moments. The fact that the writers don't even seem to realize that their primary inspiration is the Jackson movies is especially appalling.
I'm only half way through and thoroughly enjoying everything An Internet Penguin has to say!
"... something of a lightning rod for criticism by people who aren't really interested in actually talking about the show itself."
That is just on point and a shame those "critics" with dumb thumbnails and little to non lore background get so much views.. they obv ignore the writings of tolkien himself if they can instead say "ItS thE WOKE WRITERS!!!!11!" and get the hatetrain going.
In general thank you for this nice summary, I think many of us are wondering what exactly it is thats bothering us in this show.
The phrase "photocopy of a photocopy" comes to mind.
Totally agree - and also the flourishes that Jackson put in his adaptations (for instance the dark storm cloud over the charge of the Rohan riders at the siege of Gondor). I do not know if this was real or CGI but it was brilliant.
12:31 "he needs elfish medicine...AAAARH" 🤣🤣🤣😂 frodo scream just sounded funny being cut off like that
This is a really good analysis and defining of what's wrong with ROP. Good job!
Pentex - well done. There's way more messed up than what you covered, and you make great points. Just remember, "The Rings (of Power), must be destroyed. We must take it to the fires of Mt. Doom! One of you must do this."
I couldnt finish the series, thanks for covering this. great video
The problem is that it is not a prequel. Not even close, frequently opposite.
Very decent analysis.
-'It's a hollow experience, because all the dramatic moments are lifted without context from other works.'
Yes the costumes are cheap, the acting terrible, the dialogue worse, and the directing flat, but it's been difficult to put a finger on why it fails for almost everyone.
Even the CGI and camera work is bad, not to mention fight choreography. Literally every aspect of this is bad. Thats why it fails for everyone.
I think if Jackson's Rings trilogy represents the best of early 2000s fantasy storytelling then ROP represents "the best" of what we get in fantasy storytelling today: a handsomely expensive production full of callbacks that remind us of earlier, better efforts but fail to break any new ground.
They broke new ground in spending hundreds of millions to produce shite
Great video. You really nailed it.
The issue this video addresses, stems from a fundamental problem with how this show came to be. The two showrunners, whose names shall not be uttered in the speech of men or elves, wrote a bad Game of Thrones fanfiction story when that show was popular over a decade ago.
After they failed to sell it to any studio, years later, Amazon acquired the rights to LOTR. And they didnt have a clue what to do with it. So these two guys changed some names of characters and locations in their bad fanfic, went to Amazon and said, look, we have a script for you.
In their ignorance and desperation Amazon greenlit this abomination. And then they storyboarded it blatantly ripping off some dialogue and shots from the LOTR movies, badly, and thats how we got this show. It isnt Tolkien, it isnt LOTR, its bad OC.
I loved the part in Rings of Power where Galadriel says “it’s clobberin’ time”
This is a fair and balanced review. I appreciate it. It echoes my sentiments about this and other prequels in general.
3 seconds and i hear my favorite lo-fi music channel xD
Pentex is back!
Absolutely spot on as an analysis of the problem. It makes you wonder if the RoP creators themselves even realise the "trap" they've fallen into, of their own making. I bet they haven't.
They'll save the show by introducing the blue wizards and having them both be LEGO figures
honestly that tolkien quote at the end took Rings of Power out behind the barn and shot it in the head
Aragorn's speech at the Black Gate was basically a prophesy of the rings of power
Tolkien also had a problem writing Galadriel back into his legendarium. So many different versions and out-workings of her flaws - which apparently sat dormant until the second age? Haha, it’s beautiful but always contradicting!
RoP’s writing is emphasizing Sauron’s mirroring capabilities and Galadriel’s Moon-like and Venus-like qualities. This is where their creative license shines. She’s only halfway through her arc and she is wonderful. Her grief and isolation (remember Melkor is corrupted through isolation) explains her erratic behavior. I am so excited for Celeborn’s introduction!
I don’t mind the callbacks to Jackson or other famous film moments (Godzilla and Jaws combined, for example) because they are opening a dialogue between them…which would exist because it IS made afterward. Might as well lean into the connections. LOVED Galadriel being compared to Bilbo and Frodo in season 2.
Sauron is also compared to Aragorn in LoTR itself. In second age writings, Sauron goes about as a man calling himself, “savior king of men.”
Would be cool to see you edit the first season into something that feels closer to Tolkein
I'm planning to make a short film about The First & Second Ages in the coming years and videos like this are extremely useful for suggesting what NOT to do. While I plan to use the film art department designs for costumes, props, and sets, I'm actively trying to avoid all of these tropes and focus more on mundane things that happen in _The Silmarillion_ rather than grand epic moments requiring too many callbacks and way too much money. Also, finding someone pretty enough to play Annatar will be a challenge.
I love how - when you concentrate on it - you can always dive deeper into how bad The Rings of Power actually is :D
The Jackson movies do indeed make note of the orcs moving in daylight. They never explicitly explain that they avoid sunlight but they do state that it is odd that they would be in it even for an important mission like delivering what they thought was the one ring. If I’m correct Legolas makes mention of it during the first half of the two towers while they are running to catch up with the orc pack.
That was from the scenes around Amon Hen when they spot Orcs on the east bank of the Anduin during the day. And it is said that they would only risk going out in plain sunlight if the Eye of Sauron is upon them and if their masters whipped them very hard.
The scene youre thinking of is when they are chasing the Uruks from Isengard after they capture Merry and Pippin.
@@TheSuperappelflap it’s been awhile since I watched them. You sound confident. I’ll believe you
@@gabewhite6943 well it's gonna be on TV in every country on earth around Christmas in a few months
I just love that somewhat mischievous, but very infectious smile of Tolkien at the end. But you hit the nail on the head imo, the show is very empty and tries to replicate the Jackson trilogy ag every turn, but also does it poorly at every turn. That’s why people react so strongly against it… and also why I don’t, because there are really only two options: either the show will not improve and be cancelled and then forgotten or it will improve dramatically and become a really good show, like Star Trek TNG which was beyond bad in its early seasons with few exceptions. And then this show will be remembered fondly as a great show, but the first season is a bit rough. Either way, I‘m fine with it, although I think more is to be gained by everyone if the latter is the case. Until then, see you around guys.
I really would like a passion project of the first age, really want to see ungoliath vs morgoth and his balrogs
Thank you for talking about the recycling of Jackson LOTR scenes into ROP. It has continued into season 2 full force and is cringey every time.
Speaking of things that people have to have a fore knowledge of in order to enjoy, did anybody else feel like Oppenheimer was a mess unless you knew what was going on because you knew the history? I kind of felt like that was the case anyway great video thanks
Jackson trilogy does touch on sunlight sensitivity but it only mentions it with the clouds moving in and when gandalf uses sunlight against them.
I just want to know why Galadriel rolls her r’s for every single r especially the double r in Morrrrrdorrrrr
Shes Welsh, and also the speech coaches on this show are very bad at their job and made everyone talk in cringe instead of something resembling pre-modern English. Theyre putting way too much emphasis on the R's. A person with an English accent that naturally rolls their R's doesnt speak like that. Just ask an actual scotsman or someone from up north.
Ngl season 2 so far has been pretty fun. I kind of just ignore the fact its LOTR at this pint
This is one of the few criticisms of RoP that I’ve seen that isn’t completely falling into the culture war garbage so many youtube “essayists” like to throw out. I did like RoP overall and I think season 2 is much better than the first but I’m not being overly critical I just think they’re neat.
God 5 seasons, just let it end after season 2 PLEASE.
It is refreshing to see a detailed criticism of this show that isn't just someone clucking the word "woke" ad nauseum.
The problems with this show lie in the writing, not in having a female lead nor an elf with an excess of melanin.
The writing is fine
@@voluntarism335 - It's ok to like the show if you do. The world would be boring if everyone had the same tastes.
@@RictusHolloweye When people say she is an "mary sue" it makes no sense to me.
She is 3000 years old in rings of power so I would expect her to be an expert in most everything especially since she is a wartime general.
It would be like complaining that Yoda destroys everyone in his path if a tv show was made about yoda say 200 years before phantom menace.
@@voluntarism335the writing is terrible
Naw, all of those are problems too. The writing just makes it even worse.
I haven’t seen Rings of Power yet, and I don’t think I will anytime soon.
I don't think 'copying' the basics of a scene is necessarily bad, the problem is that they are copying it for a different narrative where it just doesn't work. If rings of power ripped off the scene where Sam says he can't carry the ring but he can carry him, and did it with Poppy and Nori, it wouldn't work because nobody cares about Poppy and Nori and their friendship, and whatever reason they would come up with for it happening would be disjointed because they were working backwards (we want x to happen, how do we get there) and it lacks the depth of the original. And if copying scenes for nostalgia bait is bad because most people wont get it, why is it that basically nobody who gets the references, likes them? If the only reason for a certain scene is nostalgia, it is almost certainly going to be bad, because the reasons that made the original memorable are completely removed, and all we have is a sort of reminder of something better.
I can’t exactly put my finger on it, but the show, and the shows character feels kind of like a RPG cosplay gathering, whereas in Jackson’s triology, they look and feel real.
Prequels: "I'm not confident I can make a new story in a new world, so I'm going to chronicle useless details of better story and world in the past. Give me credit."
-Lazy Hack Writer
I love angry wizard penguin. Let's have a remake about penguin elves and orcs.
I just wish that one day these big Hollywood producers and authors would swallow their pride and get off their high horse and listen to videos like these
For it is of great value to them to fix their mistakes or at least help stir them
I’ve been trying to figure out why people hate this show so much and finally someone has made me understand why. For me it was like a boring game of thrones but I didn’t expect it to be better so I was always happy or could tolerate what we got. The series always felt kinda off but I couldn’t figure out why. I honestly couldn’t understand the backlash until now.
They kept on saying things along the lines of "we always went back to the books!" Little did we know they could not read
I do think the ultimate issue with the Rings of Power season 1 is the real lack of rewatchability with it, mainly down to the "mysteries". So many scenes are there just to make you second guess who's who and dropping hints, so on the rewatch its utterly boring.
But it was already obvious before the first episode aired which actor was Sauron. Hes the only young, goodlooking masculine dude in the series. The guy playing Elendil could qualify as masculine, but he is too old looking to be an immortal being that is supposed to present itself in a fair form. Even Gil-Galad looks like he drinks soy latte's for breakfast, and he is supposed to be one of the most badass elves in Middle Earth at that time. The last high king of the Noldor.
It was not easy to get through the re-watch for making this video. Very little about the stories or characters works to invest you in the narrative in it's own right, without relying on audience's pre-existing warmth towards LOTR.
@@PentexProductions LOTR Trilogy is hands down my favorite movie ever l, besides maybe the original Matrix movie, and knowing those movies from heart and being able to quote every line of dialogue with the movie on mute without subtitles, i can tell you that my heart wasn't warmed at all by RoP. Cast it into the fire!
@@PentexProductions I completely understand this. I watched ROP at the same time as House Of The Dragon and the contrast in my feelings towards the characters in the two shows couldn't have been more different. In HOTD I cared about the the fates of the characters and found their relationships with one another and their motivations interesting. In ROP I felt...nothing.
Perfect video 👍
I really enjoyed this criticism on Rings of Power, Its refreshing to listen to critiques about the show material and what it has done wrong instead of the rage bait hate videos. I am curious, you touched on it throughout the video but what do you think is necessary to make this show work going forward?
Remember when Sauron hugged Elendil in ep 3
Excellent breakdown!
They're still making those?
I thought they would have cut their losses or find a new team.
After a couple of S1 episodes I was out.
They are contractually obliged to make at least 5 seasons, it was part of the deal to get the rights.
@@TheSuperappelflap I had no idea this is how it worked. Thanks captain
Thank you for this video.
Thank YOU for watching.
Its no wonder that no one seems to be enthused by TROP season 2..
I don’t know anyone who is looking forward to season 2 at all
16 million viewed the trailer at least.
The show is #1 on Prime in several countries, most likely because they are catching up/rewatching.
I'm not saying the show is this incredible flawless thing or anything, but I'm actually pretty excited for it.
Im looking forward to watching Jeff Bezos burn more money and having a good laugh at how bad it is. Any dollar he cant spend on more phallus shaped rockets is a dollar well spent.
Where are the "superfans" now ? 😂😂
@@himmelektronik thats fine mate and a fair point and I’d never judge anyone for liking anything. Anything that gives people enjoyment is inherently a lovely thing. Hope you enjoy season 2 when it gets here
Just personally I have lost interest in it
@@himmelektronik and now check the ratio on the trailer
This is honestly my main issue with Rings of Power, I watched it as it was coming out, and it was just boring. I wish it could have just been allowed to be it's own thing. I just wish they could realize people are not looking for more of the Jackson trilogy, we just want adaptions that can stand on their own.
The two showrunners of this shitty fanfiction had been shipping their game of thrones ripoff around for over a decade before they got the opportunity to get it greenlit by a desperate Amazon that had just paid hundreds of millions of dollars to axquire the rights to LOTR and had 0 idea what to do with it.
If LOTR is Twilight, this show is Fifty Shades of Grey.
@TheSuperappelflap OK, calm down. You're acting like me over six months ago. The show is not the worst thing to ever exist, It just committed the horrible sin of being boring. I recommend checking out the production of this show. It shows they did talent in there and passion. It's just that that passion went to a lot of the wrong things, and the show wanted to be the Jackson trilogy too much. Plus, I would not evan call this the worst adaption of Tolkiens' works.
@@Sirlance3000 well, I think it's just about the worst TV show i have ever watched, and i have seen a lot of bad tv. The story was nonsensical, the casting was bad, the acting was bad, the dialogue was extremely bad, like something a pretentious 15 year old would write, the costumes were bad, the cgi looked blurry and lacked detail, it had no sense of place or scale, the fight choreography was bad, the different storylines didn't come together, the "mystery" of who Sauron was, i already guessed before the first episode aired, it completely ignores all existing lore, and it had no redeeming qualities whatsoever
@TheSuperappelflap I agree with everything you said so fair enough. Man, those fight sceens... I'm having flash backs of them now. Those were terrible for sure.
The reason that the show is "a lightning rod for criticism" is because ilthe show and the directors of the show earned. They did a poor job and called you, me, and every fan with any legitimate criticism a racist, a bigot, etc.. Great video. ❤️👍
It's funny the number of people who think this is a prequel to the Jackson films.
I wish this was just a direct prequel to Jacksonverse rather than loose adaptation of both Silmarillion (through the LOTR texts) and the films.
If it was aknowledged as a Jacksonverse show they could make the artstyle of everything much more consistent and not keep trying to get around the licencing issues by modifying existing designs a bit (the elven rings look VERY similar to the film design, they are just enlarged) and the story could just flow more organically with Jackson's canon in mind, instead of trying to pretend it's Jacksonverse by forced references while it cannot be officially.