How Nimoy cracked his voice on that line made it genuinely sound as if he had exerted everything he had to get into her mind. Not only that but there was still the rage and disappointment that the human side of Spock probably pushed in as a lever. Great scene by all involved! Medals for everyone!
Spock was breaking a cardinal rule of Vulcan society, by forcing his mind to enter Valeris'. Even though he did it because of " the good of the many ", it would've been emotionally draining & traumatic.A lot of us wouldn't have seen it that way during Star Trek TOS days.
I agree, I really liked the fact that the original bridge crew all look disturbed, even shocked by what Spock is doing. They know that he'd never go that far under normal circumstances. Only Kirk shows no surprise; he knows that Spock is capable of something like that if it is the only way to save billions of lives. there's also the fact that Valeris is Vulcan, signatory to their belief system and held to a higher standard by other Vulcans. This is one of the all-time great Star Trek scenes.
Lenord Nimoy was awesome in this scene - but Kim really made you believe he was forcing her to give up information. The look on her face as he digs through her mind like that - forces information out of her memory. She's near tears and in pain and then he starts digging for something that isn't there... it's really a powerful scene. The music DEFINITELY contributes as well - not to mention the sound effects in the background... god, love this scene ^-^
It feels like as Spock has gotten older he's become more and more okay with showing a small amount of emotion here and there. I'd like to think that it was his human half that allowed that to happen, as well as his logic as the backbone.
There was also a scene where Valeris was pointing a phaser at Spock. She froze up, didn't fire then he violently swatted it out of her hand. He was visibly angry for just a moment.
Captain Spock had very right to be angry-he sponsored Lt. Valeris to enter Starfleet Academy and she betrayed not only Spock himself but Captain Kirk, and the rest of the Enterprise crew.
Yes, to a Vulcan, this would be rape. Of the worst kind. You could see Spock regretted doing it. But given the severity of the situation, too many lives rode on what she was perceived to know. Still, I've no doubt it haunted Spock for having done it, at least to some extent. This scene always makes my skin crawl a little....powerful acting.
A good thing too. There was another spectator at that scene, a character named Bester who would have been even more vicious and would have destroyed Valeris' mind and left her a vegetable---or even killed her. But Spock had the presence of mind to stop the interrogation as soon as he learned that she did not know.
This scene was not only disturbing, but very revealing, in that the conspiracy is laid out before Kirk and crew. And despite Valeris' own participation, it's very powerful to see the compassion on the faces of both Scotty and Uhura during Spock's deep mind meld. Even I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pain that Valeris was enduring.
I understand and value your humanity, but let us not forget the people that are dead because of the choices that Valeris freely made. I personally have little sympathy for those who don't stop to count the dead that are the result of their actions , simply because they fear change.
It's a mind meld. They were speaking together. You see Spock's mouth is open wide while she's gasping and in pain. He's in the same pain. It's a mind meld. They're both suffering the exact same thing.
Vulcan mind melds were damned creepy whenever they were forced. I'll never forget the mind meld between the mirror universe spock and the main universe McCoy. The look of abject fear on McCoys' face, and Spocks' forcefulness, in his face and his actions...just like here. The Vulcans don't show emotion often...but when they do...watch out. Tuvok when he temporarily had his emotional control removed comes to mind.
This scene is very intense and very well done. The part where Scotty and even Uhurah look a bit uncomfortable at how hard Spock is doing the mind meld is a very good touch. They didn't show Chekov's reaction, but he was probably uncomfortable as well. This is the second time Spock has actually shown emotion here. The first time was in Sickbay when Valeris fell for the message and he smacked the phaser out of her hand and now here when he finishes the mind meld and you can tell from his voice that he's disappointed and angry. That's probably why he went down to his cabin later, to meditate and get back into focus.
I had always thought that the Mind Meld thing was kinda corny... until I saw this scene. Never seen a hostile mind meld before. It's like he's probing her mind but she's resisting, so he takes a far more aggressive approach to it then we've seen before: when he puts the second hand on her face he's done being gentle: he's going to use brute force to rip her mind open to see what's inside. That he reduces another Vulcan to crying out in anguish really gets across what it is happening. Incredible use of non-verbal acting. It's a tense, disturbing and brilliant scene.
Spock was extremely uncomfortable and would rather not do this, but the fact was that Valeris asked for it. And she got it. Served her right for being such a despicable---you name it.
@@Emper0rH0rde A mind meld was essentially the equivalent of a physical assault is for humans, something completely TABOO, & in this case an act of extreme desperation.
Something I think a lot of people here are missing is that even though Spock's emotions are running hot by Vulcan standards, he's not enjoying deep-frying Valeris' brain in the slightest. Spock is loathe to hurt anyone, but in this situation it's the only way they're going to find out what they need to know, which only makes her betrayal of Starfleet and his trust all the harder to swallow. It's stuff like this that makes this movie on a near-equal level with Wrath of Khan and First Contact.
@@brians9508 I never said I was more perceptive. It was simply something I found in the scene that I thought added to it in a good way and that I thought good conversations could be had about.
That heartbeat throughout this scene...adds more tension and creepiness. This scene *ALONE* cements just how dangerous and utterly *NIGHTMARISH* a Vulcan can be. Jeez...
Again, remember: if you ever read the early history of Vulcan, you'll recognize that they were as savage as all get-out. And they still have some of that savagery every seven years, in the pon farr when their hormones get out of control.
This is a small reveal of what it must have been on Vulcan before Surak. What we see in this disturbing scene is a mind assault. Consider what Professor Snape does to teach Harry Potter how to defend himself against an attempt by Voldemort to enter his mind unbidden without permission; battering down the doors of his memory and ripping off his sense of privacy and selfhood. You can imagine the real horror. Remember how Hanock occupying Spock's body in STOS abused Spock's ability to "hear every mind on the ship" and to inflict psychic pain. Uhura was screaming. Understand what "Mirror Spock" meant when he commented about anyone who assassinated him. He said that his "operatives" would avenge his death in response." and some of them are Vulcan" Get an idea of what a new Vulcan bride has to face when her husband is in "the season" battering her body and her mind simultaneously. Mercifully, Sarek was older and more experienced when he wed Amanda.
Chris Thorton It might be inappropriate for you Trekkies, since I am hauling from Star Wars... but if Spock would have been the perfect Jedi and now he is "One With The Force". Live long and prosper and may the Force be with you - whatever universe you claim ;) !
KrautGoesWild I also love Star Wars as well. My comment was about Nimoy's acting as opposed to his specific role as Mr. Spock. He would have made a fantastic Jedi.
Chris Thorton the day of Leonard Nimoy's passing is an especially painful memory for me. It was also the last time I spoke with my father. My father was found dead 2 days later.
You can imagine its a truly intense sense of violation. She clearly suffers a great deal and hes upset he had to do it to her. You can only imagine what vulcans would be like if they wernt so restrained.
There is a great scene in Doctor Who where the Doctor is challenged by a villain. She doesn't believe he will do what he has threatened to do because "Good men have too many rules.". He replies: "Good men don't *need* rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
The book has an interesting take on this scene and it’s actually much more aligned with how I saw this when I watched it. Yes, it’s forced, but what shocks Valeris is how easily Spock does it, breaking through her mental barriers. And then of course, when she doesn’t know…
I read that-and if I recall Valeris harbored some racial prejudice (or maybe that was in another novel) towards Spock because he was only half Vulcan despite his achievements.
@@socialcommentary1014 yeah thats a pretty common thing writers go for - obviously spock even has that prejudice himself. i can imagine someone like valeris, who has clearly let her better judgement slip, might feel that even stronger than other vulcans
You can tell Spock is truly furious here. Done in a very subtle and tasteful way, whereas in the Abramsverse he always has to burst and yell and punch, because shouting = drama now.
That’s a bit unfair, considering they’re both very different instances. In this one, Spock is feeling betrayed that Valeris has betrayed not just him, but the UFP (or just possibly the Enterprise crew) In the Abramsverse, Kirk just said that Spock had never loved his mother, which had just recently died, couple that with the fact that he had just lost his homeworld. Did you expect him to remain somewhat calm and just call security on Kirk _again_ after he basically said “you don’t even care about your mother!”?
@@L1z43vr yes if he was a Vulcan clear of emotions or keep them deeply suppressed...then yes Yo Mamma statements should have no visible bearing on his demeanor. He's Spock Not Anakin Skywalker No happiness emotion spores to excuse the slip.
And this is why, when confronted with the possibility of Vulcan/Romulan reunification, Spock chose to take on the responsibility on his own. He would not allow the involvement of others tempt him into crossing the line like this ever again.
One of the points that made this movie and something you can DEFINITELY see in this scene is just how disappointed with himself Spock is over this. Although he doesn’t verbalize it he blindly trusted Valeris with everything and anything because she was an overachieving Vulcan. He never even considered that she was up to something until she was caught red handed. And there were clues here and there that he overlooked
No. Because he was in love with her. Spock's logic deluded him. Funny how Trek fans give Spock a pass on this but oppose waterboarding which is morally the same. The hero has feet of clay.
@@WhiteScarsEmo he said his job on ST just ended and the next day he reported to an adjacent studio. Probably not "next day" but that's a good way to put it.
It shows the potential power that the Vulcans had. It also shows how their philosophy stopped them from being that powerful. They showed a lot of self restraint.
We have seen in this presentation every conceivable aspect of the Vulcan mind meld possible. The specific one depicted here has been called "mind-wipe", "mind-rape" and all sorts of other unsavory designations; the definition is a forcible rapid-fire mind-meld committed against an unwilling and/or resistant participant, and in most instances it is considered a crime. However, there are situations where it may be necessary in order to extract information, and obviously this was one such. Watching this I could not help feeling for Spock who was extremely uncomfortable having to do it and would have preferred not to; I also was reminded sharply of a phrase which has been used for ages to describe traitorous individuals: "There is nothing worse than a lousy one of your own" (I think of such persons as corrupt politicians, law enforcement officers and the like). Remember Benedict Arnold?---there was a fine example. Fortunately there are numerous instances of the mind-meld being used in more salubrious occasions---I think particularly of the final scene in "Requiem for Methuselah" where Spock performed an act not only of compassion but also a powerful psychological save, and the unusual triple mind-meld coupled with powerful hypnotic suggestions in "Spectre of the Gun"---benevolent, helpful and ultimately life-saving. So there we have it: the mind-meld, to be considered most carefully.
Never have I seen a passionate & aggressive Spock until this installment. Remember the scene where he slapped the phaser out of her hand? XD RIP Leonard Nimoy - you were one of the Godfathers of Star Trek.
If Vulcans were real, and this came into being done.....I could understand: How much it tore Spok apart to commence such a dead penetration into her mind. And how much pain and anguish she endured while melded. I would assume this is something a Vulcan would not wish to do. Mind melds are generally for willfully passing information and knowledge. This seems more of a direct interrogation bordering on torture.
I always loved this scene because just spocks so mad at her, and not only that I think Mind Melding is painful for a Vulcan to experience. Especially when one is wanting information.
He did. In fact in the novelization the writers had so much of a problem with this scene that they toned it down and made what Spock did far less of an assault.
hagamapama Which, in some ways, I think cheapens the scene a bit. One of the themes I saw in this film was what happens when people are pushed to extremes: Cartright and Velaris betraying the Federation and Starfleet, Chang conspiring and murdering his own head of state, even Kirk's "Let them die" line. They are the reactions of people motivated by fear and anger and we see the unthinkable things they are capable of doing and saying under those circumstances. To me this scene is so powerful because it demonstrates that even Spock, who up to this point has been the most level headed and logical, has his breaking point. Make no mistake, I am in no way condoning or attempting to justify the implications of this scene nor excuse Spock's actions. But I do think what we are intended to come away with is not "Spock just (mind)raped a girl," but rather a question. If it were us, if the stakes were that high and the situation that dire, would we cross the line? Or perhaps the better question is: Would we be able not to? Just my thoughts on it. Take it for what you will.
Yes Spock was extremely angry at Valerie, she was his protégé. He trained her, raised her like a daughter almost to succeed him and take over his legacy. Her betrayal of everything he taught her was devastating to him especially since he did not see it. In the end, with the double mind meld, Spock realizes that he let his anger get the best of him and is horrified how far it took it.
I suspect this scene might make the studio nervous and threaten it's PG rating nowadays. One could make the argument that Spock is torturing his younger female subordinate and committing some kind of vaguely metaphorical rape as punishment. Nicholas Meyer and Nichelle Nichols knew what's up- Uhura's reaction of horror, rather than satisfaction that an antagonist character got her comeuppance is telling. But- best scene in the movie, and one of the most powerful scenes this cast ever filmed. 1991 was a different time...
Leonard Nimoy did a great job, but Kim Cattral was amazing here, the primal sounds she made were on point. Spock two handing you will leave you wrecked and devoid. This scene is one of the darkest in Star Trek, and you feel like Spock is wrecking your mind as well as Valeris. One of the greatest scenes ever in Star Trek. Scottie's face is pure horror.
Section 31 approves of this act. If the situation is dire enough, the ends always justify the means when survival is at stake or in this case, you're working to prevent a war! A single individual violated, weighed up against an intergalactic war that could cost billions of lives......its a no brainer!
The galaxy had mercy. Lady Amanda's belt did not. Kirk nor McCoy's asses were spared either for allowing this . Sarek wisely snuck away not wanting to be next
Of course she had a motive for it - it was in support of her evaluation of the politics between the Klingons and the Federation. Logic and ethics do not draw absolute conclusions when applied to real life. Spock's optimism and her pessimism are *both* logical evaluations of the situation.
Director Nicholas Meyer said he regrets this scene and would change it if he could go back. I think it works and shows how desperate the situation is. Spock clearly regrets it as his voice shows.
Ah, the lost art of subtlety in filmmaking; a time when we didn't need a lot of flashing lights, or snap zooms, or fancy computer-generated effects to tell us what was happening onscreen. All we needed were a well-written script, committed performances, and the deft hand of a skilled director. The thrumming heartbeat of a mind flayed open certainly added to the flavor...
I saw this in theatres when I was a kid and distinctly remember that she clenched her fist so hard her own fingernails drew blood from her palm. I guess it was deemed to intense and subsequently removed from later versions...
I love Valeris as a character. We see other villanous vulcans but shes the first one who feels like shes justifying something terrible with logic. Its quite chilling for a species potrayed as above it all. I appreciate that later down the line we see vulcans slot very naturally into starfleet intelligence and into section 31. After all, if theres going to be sabotage and assassination, it is only logical that they be carried out properly.
People talk about this like it's torture, And on a way, it is. But. To mind meld is to feel what the other feels; every dive and question and probe Spock reached out with came with a backflow of the motives, pian, remorse and all the other justifications we all bury under the decisions we make. Yes, it was a brutal interrogation. More intimate and violating than anything we know, but it's one that takes as much a toll on the asker as the questioned. I think they handled it pretty well.
“A lie?!” “A Choice.” How much must that have burned to have his constant use of loyalty to his crew and the people around him thrown back in his face as a way to justify her sabotage of any chance at peace.
And it was at that point that he abruptly stopped the interrogation. There's an old saying that "no one can give what he (or she) hasn't got", and it was certainly true here. For anyone to continue the process beyond that point would be not only immensely illogical but also viciously sadistic.
Minimalism drives horror and the scene is horrific. The subdued music and heartbeat suggest the negative space in horror, the quality of not knowing anything above the basic, vital functions of life and even those are tenuous at best. Good catch.
Originally Kim Catrell's character was to be Savik...but because of this twist they came up with another similar young vulcan. Originally in 1982 (2282ish to 2290) Savik was to be half Vulcan and half Romulan. That was in the first theaters cut and in the pre publicity info, but it was edited out before general theatrical release, because in TOS.... Only one Romulan had intimate contact with one Vulcan in thousands of years....yeah, his daughter.
Disrespectful to Vulcans and Jews alike. Leonard meant no porn in his Shekima books of thinly-veiled women as they were the female version of God. I saw his exhibit many years ago and felt blessed. Even though I'm not Jewish, my church's BCP has the Jewish Benediction in it. That's where he got the Vulcan salute. I met him once at a CO telethon and we discussed the hand gesture. I told him that my pastor said that Benediction. He smiled and said." Where do you think he got it from?" "Our connection",I said.
He has stated several times that this is false. I actually asked him myself at a con nearly 10 years ago and he said he was irritated with her at the time, but that wasn't really the reason.
This scene really displays how humanity will and still resort to torture if pushed into a corner. This tantamount to waterboarding. What's more disturbing is Doctor McCoy not protesting. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the ONE. I always wondered how Picard would've handled this.
@@mardus_ee Of course Picard would break the rules if the end justified HIS needs. He's done so plenty of times before, along with Janeway and Sisko, the worst of the lot. All these captains have blood on their hands. I guess that's part of the job description.
I liked Zachary Quinta’s portrayal of Spock but didn’t care for how they wrote his character. I felt that Quinto was laboring to walk as closely in Nimoy’s steps as possible, but the character was written poorly.
I just love how her screams show spock's rage. His Vulcan training is failing as he's just beyond anger at this point and literally torturing her. Everyone is shocked at what he's doing and even himself
Apparently Valeris was supposed to be Saavik in an early draft of the script, but neither Kristie Alley nor Robin Curtis wanted to reprise the role, and the producers didn't want to hire a *third* actress to play the part. Plus Gene Roddenberry wasn't too keen about having Saavik betray the Federation. Too bad, because it would have been a hell of a twist to have her go rogue, and it would've tied the movies together perfectly. Plus her betrayal wouldn't have been as ridiculously predictable as it was with Valeris.
I don't think Spock intends it as a rape on her mind. It's like interrogation/torture. In a sense it's the same thing, but I doubt he had any malicious intent to make it worse. I think it is simply a violation to her rights as a Vulcan, and the fact she was probably fighting it off made it worse, and that is why she screams. A very awesome scene.
lol it might end up being a painful experience "who you cheated on me with " Bobby, Michael, Fred, Tyrone, David... "Who else??! Who else!!!???" Joseph, Leonard, Candice, Rex the dog, and Chris who now goes by the name of Christina" Fuck me!!
Mentals attacks are far worse than physical attacks, healing the mind isn't nearly as simple as waiting for the body to heal. Mental attacks are the real nightmares we should fear if encountered.
They did change it but it was apparently because Robin Curtis wouldn't reprise the role for some reason. They were looking for another actress to play Saavik and decided to go a different route.
If you enjoy reading Star Trek stuff, I recommend Spock's World. It has a section where long before Spock and the Federation, the Vulcans had developed the mind to kill without touch. Like a mental death wish. CHEERS from Colorado
A forced mind meld has been described in the books as extreme equal or greater than physical violation. Damn but that’s brutal. People always forget the Vulcans are a powerful and deadly desert people. The sands have no mercy.
This scene is very powerful in that Spock saw her as a wise Vulkan for her to betray there very logic etc I think hurt him deeply you can hear it in his voice
Heartbreaking moment Spock loses everything. He trusted her partly because she was pure blood Vulcan and I think he was in love with her. Terribly lonely man. So pitiful is Spock.
3:15 of the following video link reminded me of this Star Trek scene....maybe the new movies will have an insane mind meld like this one Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor - Talion Hunts Down Ratbag
The tragedy of this is that Valeris would be a valuable addition to Starfleet and would probably make great career in future, had she not been so stupid and listened to Cartwright.
Yes true, but I doubt that a Vulcan would even consider murder unless she had some terrible motivation for it. Vulcans and Klingons are completely different but her actions are more like a Klingon than anything else. I just don't see how even a grudge against the Klingons, as nearly all the federation have, could motivate her into murder and betrayal.
![T-800 CSM 101 Arrival | Terminator 2: Judgment Day [Remastered]](/img/n.gif)
How Nimoy cracked his voice on that line made it genuinely sound as if he had exerted everything he had to get into her mind. Not only that but there was still the rage and disappointment that the human side of Spock probably pushed in as a lever. Great scene by all involved! Medals for everyone!
Cracked his voice? Nimoy was a heavy smoker and his lungs and throat were in terrible condition. Every scene was a struggle, for him.
Spock was breaking a cardinal rule of Vulcan society, by forcing his mind to enter Valeris'. Even though he did it because of " the good of the many ", it would've been emotionally draining & traumatic.A lot of us wouldn't have seen it that way during Star Trek TOS days.
@@XtremiTeez He also became a heavy drinker, according to his son Adam.
Spock is not a man I'd want to cross.
@@christinebutler7630 Spock definitely let his human side out here.
I agree, I really liked the fact that the original bridge crew all look disturbed, even shocked by what Spock is doing. They know that he'd never go that far under normal circumstances. Only Kirk shows no surprise; he knows that Spock is capable of something like that if it is the only way to save billions of lives. there's also the fact that Valeris is Vulcan, signatory to their belief system and held to a higher standard by other Vulcans. This is one of the all-time great Star Trek scenes.
Why is Kirk so not surprised? How many times has he passed by the mind of Spock in the meld not to know?"
Lenord Nimoy was awesome in this scene - but Kim really made you believe he was forcing her to give up information. The look on her face as he digs through her mind like that - forces information out of her memory. She's near tears and in pain and then he starts digging for something that isn't there... it's really a powerful scene. The music DEFINITELY contributes as well - not to mention the sound effects in the background... god, love this scene ^-^
Kim Cattrail is an amazing actress.
To force a mind-meld in Vulcans is akin to take to Vulcans, but Spock had little choice here.
You are 💯 % right. The frightened looks of the crew really helps put it together.
. . . ... Hourargh !!
@@dreamssunshine9485 It's a movie, fool. Are you also complaining about all the violent death scenes? If not, then you're a hypocrite!
Spock showing emotions, with the sadness and horror in his face and his voice trembling, always gets me incredibly choked up.
It feels like as Spock has gotten older he's become more and more okay with showing a small amount of emotion here and there. I'd like to think that it was his human half that allowed that to happen, as well as his logic as the backbone.
There was also a scene where Valeris was pointing a phaser at Spock. She froze up, didn't fire then he violently swatted it out of her hand. He was visibly angry for just a moment.
Captain Spock had very right to be angry-he sponsored Lt. Valeris to enter Starfleet Academy and she betrayed not only Spock himself but Captain Kirk, and the rest of the Enterprise crew.
@@warpcrafterI know. He looked pissed during that scene.
@@warpcrafter Oh, he was angry. I wouldn't want to make Spock FURIOUS.
I wish they didn't cut out the best part. Scotty says, "Then we're dead," and Spock says, "I've been dead before."
And something undiscussable without a proper frame of reference…
Right. The previous movie
They always cut out the best parts of these clips, unfortunately.
@@xtzyshuadog Yes. The previous movie. The Voyage Home.
So has Scotty...The Original Series he did and came back in a episode
Yes, to a Vulcan, this would be rape. Of the worst kind. You could see Spock regretted doing it. But given the severity of the situation, too many lives rode on what she was perceived to know. Still, I've no doubt it haunted Spock for having done it, at least to some extent. This scene always makes my skin crawl a little....powerful acting.
Spock knew it mattered
@@NormAppletonhe acted logically
Definititely one of the best scenes ever in any ST film. He was about to tear her mind apart had he not stopped.
A good thing too. There was another spectator at that scene, a character named Bester who would have been even more vicious and would have destroyed Valeris' mind and left her a vegetable---or even killed her. But Spock had the presence of mind to stop the interrogation as soon as he learned that she did not know.
@@zitacarno4443 Anatomically impossible, Mr. Garibaldi. But you're welcome to try. Anytime. Anywhere.
I remember how much this scene made my blood chill...the look on Scotty's face at 1:53 says it all...as does Uhura's reaction at 2:06..wow...
I notice how Spock is brought to tears as she's taken to the point of pain during the meld. epic.
He was so disappointed in her.
A mind meld is literally sharing another's mind. He is literally feeling what she is (and vice versa).
This scene was not only disturbing, but very revealing, in that the conspiracy is laid out before Kirk and crew. And despite Valeris' own participation, it's very powerful to see the compassion on the faces of both Scotty and Uhura during Spock's deep mind meld. Even I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pain that Valeris was enduring.
I understand and value your humanity, but let us not forget the people that are dead because of the choices that Valeris freely made. I personally have little sympathy for those who don't stop to count the dead that are the result of their actions , simply because they fear change.
I think it sickened Spock a little bit to do it, too.
It's a mind meld. They were speaking together. You see Spock's mouth is open wide while she's gasping and in pain. He's in the same pain. It's a mind meld. They're both suffering the exact same thing.
This just proves torture works even in the 25th century.
You can tell that Spock was not enjoying this.
Vulcan mind melds were damned creepy whenever they were forced. I'll never forget the mind meld between the mirror universe spock and the main universe McCoy. The look of abject fear on McCoys' face, and Spocks' forcefulness, in his face and his actions...just like here. The Vulcans don't show emotion often...but when they do...watch out. Tuvok when he temporarily had his emotional control removed comes to mind.
This scene is very intense and very well done. The part where Scotty and even Uhurah look a bit uncomfortable at how hard Spock is doing the mind meld is a very good touch. They didn't show Chekov's reaction, but he was probably uncomfortable as well. This is the second time Spock has actually shown emotion here. The first time was in Sickbay when Valeris fell for the message and he smacked the phaser out of her hand and now here when he finishes the mind meld and you can tell from his voice that he's disappointed and angry. That's probably why he went down to his cabin later, to meditate and get back into focus.
I had always thought that the Mind Meld thing was kinda corny... until I saw this scene. Never seen a hostile mind meld before. It's like he's probing her mind but she's resisting, so he takes a far more aggressive approach to it then we've seen before: when he puts the second hand on her face he's done being gentle: he's going to use brute force to rip her mind open to see what's inside. That he reduces another Vulcan to crying out in anguish really gets across what it is happening. Incredible use of non-verbal acting. It's a tense, disturbing and brilliant scene.
I think the mind melds in ST II, III, IV and VI were brilliantly executed.
1:01 “…Carrie Bradshaw…Miranda Hobbes…Charlotte York…”
“Dang it, Spock, you’ve gone too deep-that’s a different show!”
Catrall was great.
A terrifying scene, as much because of how much it wounds Spock to commit the act as the pain it inflicts on Valeris.
Spock was extremely uncomfortable and would rather not do this, but the fact was that Valeris asked for it. And she got it. Served her right for being such a despicable---you name it.
@@zitacarno4443 ...traitor...
As deeply as her betrayal wounded Spock, it *killed* him to have to do this.
@@zitacarno4443 a victim of torture is never asking for it and that’s why he feels so guilty afterwards
@@Emper0rH0rde A mind meld was essentially the equivalent of a physical assault is for humans, something completely TABOO, & in this case an act of extreme desperation.
This is one of Nimoy's greatest moments portraying Spock.
Something I think a lot of people here are missing is that even though Spock's emotions are running hot by Vulcan standards, he's not enjoying deep-frying Valeris' brain in the slightest. Spock is loathe to hurt anyone, but in this situation it's the only way they're going to find out what they need to know, which only makes her betrayal of Starfleet and his trust all the harder to swallow. It's stuff like this that makes this movie on a near-equal level with Wrath of Khan and First Contact.
Then you read the book SPock's World and see how badly Spock gets betrayed by his own people.
I don't think anyone is missing that point.
@@brians9508 Then why haven't I seen anyone else bring it up?
@@furioussherman7265 cuz they dont have time to waste explaining to you that you are not somehow more perceptive than the rest of us mere mortals.
@@brians9508 I never said I was more perceptive. It was simply something I found in the scene that I thought added to it in a good way and that I thought good conversations could be had about.
Most amazing mind meld scene in the history of Star Trek.
Hm, dunno, I recall a few very well done ones from the voice-acted version of "Star Trek: Judgment Rites", as well. :0
the funny thing is the DVD version featured stupid flash images whenever a name was mentioned, thankfully all current versions omit those
best
Reminds me of the words of Kur in "Errand of Mercy";
"It's a mind sifter. Or mind ripper, depending upon how much force is used."
That heartbeat throughout this scene...adds more tension and creepiness. This scene *ALONE* cements just how dangerous and utterly *NIGHTMARISH* a Vulcan can be. Jeez...
Again, remember: if you ever read the early history of Vulcan, you'll recognize that they were as savage as all get-out. And they still have some of that savagery every seven years, in the pon farr when their hormones get out of control.
Ponfar? Better kill my captain!
This is a small reveal of what it must have been on Vulcan before Surak. What we see in this disturbing scene is a mind assault. Consider what Professor Snape does to teach Harry Potter how to defend himself against an attempt by Voldemort to enter his mind unbidden without permission; battering down the doors of his memory and ripping off his sense of privacy and selfhood. You can imagine the real horror. Remember how Hanock occupying Spock's body in STOS abused Spock's ability to "hear every mind on the ship" and to inflict psychic pain. Uhura was screaming. Understand what "Mirror Spock" meant when he commented about anyone who assassinated him. He said that his "operatives" would avenge his death in response." and some of them are Vulcan" Get an idea of what a new Vulcan bride has to face when her husband is in "the season" battering her body and her mind simultaneously. Mercifully, Sarek was older and more experienced when he wed Amanda.
Such great acting... LEGENDARY! Never again.....
RIP Leonard.....!
What an actor!!! Oh my goodness, how we miss you Mr. Nimoy!!! Rest in Peace!!!
Chris Thorton It might be inappropriate for you Trekkies, since I am hauling from Star Wars... but if Spock would have been the perfect Jedi and now he is "One With The Force".
Live long and prosper and may the Force be with you - whatever universe you claim ;) !
KrautGoesWild
I also love Star Wars as well. My comment was about Nimoy's acting as opposed to his specific role as Mr. Spock. He would have made a fantastic Jedi.
Chris Thorton the day of Leonard Nimoy's passing is an especially painful memory for me. It was also the last time I spoke with my father. My father was found dead 2 days later.
@@BrotherDerrick3X 😓🙏
Both of them were fantastic here. The surrounding crew members added great significance as well.
You know you’re screwed when Spock uses BOTH of his hands for a mind meld. She’s going to have a helluva migraine in the morning!
Captain Janeway: The last time I heard my mind to your mind I had a headache for two weeks.
"What you _want_ is _irrelevant_ . What you have _chosen_ is at hand."
I know that there are those who will disagree, but I think that these are two of the best lines in the movie.
You missed the two great lines after it!
Scotty: Then we're dead.
Spock: I've been dead before...
You can imagine its a truly intense sense of violation. She clearly suffers a great deal and hes upset he had to do it to her. You can only imagine what vulcans would be like if they wernt so restrained.
If Vulcans weren’t restrained they’d destroy the human mind to bits
There is a great scene in Doctor Who where the Doctor is challenged by a villain. She doesn't believe he will do what he has threatened to do because "Good men have too many rules.".
He replies:
"Good men don't *need* rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
This is probably only a taste of the brutality they knew in the time before Surak.
Apparently so brutal they’d make Earth’s atrocities look tame, according to Spock.
@@yamato6114 I imagine something simular to dark elder from 40k
The book has an interesting take on this scene and it’s actually much more aligned with how I saw this when I watched it. Yes, it’s forced, but what shocks Valeris is how easily Spock does it, breaking through her mental barriers. And then of course, when she doesn’t know…
I read that-and if I recall Valeris harbored some racial prejudice (or maybe that was in another novel) towards Spock because he was only half Vulcan despite his achievements.
@@socialcommentary1014 yeah thats a pretty common thing writers go for - obviously spock even has that prejudice himself. i can imagine someone like valeris, who has clearly let her better judgement slip, might feel that even stronger than other vulcans
You can tell Spock is truly furious here. Done in a very subtle and tasteful way, whereas in the Abramsverse he always has to burst and yell and punch, because shouting = drama now.
YOU NEVER LOVED HER !!
Yeah they're still doing that. I hoped it would settle out by Strange New Worlds but there he is still 30% stoic and 70% rage and wall puncher.
That’s a bit unfair, considering they’re both very different instances.
In this one, Spock is feeling betrayed that Valeris has betrayed not just him, but the UFP (or just possibly the Enterprise crew)
In the Abramsverse, Kirk just said that Spock had never loved his mother, which had just recently died, couple that with the fact that he had just lost his homeworld. Did you expect him to remain somewhat calm and just call security on Kirk _again_ after he basically said “you don’t even care about your mother!”?
He also smacks the phaser out of Valeris’s hand in the previous scene with a look of barely contained rage.
@@L1z43vr yes if he was a Vulcan clear of emotions or keep them deeply suppressed...then yes
Yo Mamma statements should have no visible bearing on his demeanor.
He's Spock
Not Anakin Skywalker
No happiness emotion spores to excuse the slip.
And this is why, when confronted with the possibility of Vulcan/Romulan reunification, Spock chose to take on the responsibility on his own. He would not allow the involvement of others tempt him into crossing the line like this ever again.
One of the points that made this movie and something you can DEFINITELY see in this scene is just how disappointed with himself Spock is over this. Although he doesn’t verbalize it he blindly trusted Valeris with everything and anything because she was an overachieving Vulcan. He never even considered that she was up to something until she was caught red handed. And there were clues here and there that he overlooked
History is scattered with trusted proteges commiting treason.
No. Because he was in love with her. Spock's logic deluded him. Funny how Trek fans give Spock a pass on this but oppose waterboarding which is morally the same. The hero has feet of clay.
Ha! Spock duped by a chick!
Remember that it was originally supposed to be Saavik rather than Valeris...
shocking how threatening spock was in this scene, i could never imagine leonard nimoy being malicious or threatening
Then watch his time as a killer on Columbo.
@@austinkersey2445 true! i forgot about that. ive been planning to watch columbo and heard he was in it, will definitely have to get to it sooner
Nimoy used to play gangsters and mafia hit men in the years before Star Trek. Menacing was his stock and trade.
@@STho205 I remember having to mentally adjust every time I saw his character in the original "Mission: Impossible".
@@WhiteScarsEmo he said his job on ST just ended and the next day he reported to an adjacent studio. Probably not "next day" but that's a good way to put it.
Spock used 2 hands! He has never used 2 hands! Shows how powerful the mind meld was
It shows the potential power that the Vulcans had. It also shows how their philosophy stopped them from being that powerful. They showed a lot of self restraint.
One of the most intense scenes ever in Star Trek
This is one of my favorite Spock scenes. He's got that "I'm done f'ing around attitude " lol
In the original DVD release, when Valeris names names, pictures of the respective conspirators pop up. It was an addition by Nick Meyer.
The steps, the sound of her recoiling. Great nuances captured with the performance!
Excellent acting!! The heartbeat is a very nice touch!!
We have seen in this presentation every conceivable aspect of the Vulcan mind meld possible. The specific one depicted here has been called "mind-wipe", "mind-rape" and all sorts of other unsavory designations; the definition is a forcible rapid-fire mind-meld committed against an unwilling and/or resistant participant, and in most instances it is considered a crime. However, there are situations where it may be necessary in order to extract information, and obviously this was one such. Watching this I could not help feeling for Spock who was extremely uncomfortable having to do it and would have preferred not to; I also was reminded sharply of a phrase which has been used for ages to describe traitorous individuals: "There is nothing worse than a lousy one of your own" (I think of such persons as corrupt politicians, law enforcement officers and the like). Remember Benedict Arnold?---there was a fine example. Fortunately there are numerous instances of the mind-meld being used in more salubrious occasions---I think particularly of the final scene in "Requiem for Methuselah" where Spock performed an act not only of compassion but also a powerful psychological save, and the unusual triple mind-meld coupled with powerful hypnotic suggestions in "Spectre of the Gun"---benevolent, helpful and ultimately life-saving. So there we have it: the mind-meld, to be considered most carefully.
Never have I seen a passionate & aggressive Spock until this installment. Remember the scene where he slapped the phaser out of her hand? XD
RIP Leonard Nimoy - you were one of the Godfathers of Star Trek.
One of, if not the, most epic Star Trek films
If Vulcans were real, and this came into being done.....I could understand:
How much it tore Spok apart to commence such a dead penetration into her mind.
And how much pain and anguish she endured while melded.
I would assume this is something a Vulcan would not wish to do. Mind melds are generally for willfully passing information and knowledge.
This seems more of a direct interrogation bordering on torture.
It's equivalent to a human physically forcing themselves on somebody. Unthinkable.
I always loved this scene because just spocks so mad at her, and not only that I think Mind Melding is painful for a Vulcan to experience. Especially when one is wanting information.
A consentful mind-meld is probably okay, but a forced mind-meld is not - to either of the parties.
The horrified looks on Scotty and uhura as though Valerie was violated was bad and I think spock regretted what he did.
He did. In fact in the novelization the writers had so much of a problem with this scene that they toned it down and made what Spock did far less of an assault.
hagamapama Which, in some ways, I think cheapens the scene a bit. One of the themes I saw in this film was what happens when people are pushed to extremes: Cartright and Velaris betraying the Federation and Starfleet, Chang conspiring and murdering his own head of state, even Kirk's "Let them die" line. They are the reactions of people motivated by fear and anger and we see the unthinkable things they are capable of doing and saying under those circumstances. To me this scene is so powerful because it demonstrates that even Spock, who up to this point has been the most level headed and logical, has his breaking point.
Make no mistake, I am in no way condoning or attempting to justify the implications of this scene nor excuse Spock's actions. But I do think what we are intended to come away with is not "Spock just (mind)raped a girl," but rather a question. If it were us, if the stakes were that high and the situation that dire, would we cross the line? Or perhaps the better question is: Would we be able not to?
Just my thoughts on it. Take it for what you will.
Yes Spock was extremely angry at Valerie, she was his protégé. He trained her, raised her like a daughter almost to succeed him and take over his legacy. Her betrayal of everything he taught her was devastating to him especially since he did not see it. In the end, with the double mind meld, Spock realizes that he let his anger get the best of him and is horrified how far it took it.
+Wizel Balan Nice observation regarding Spock's emotional response to that betrayal and how it colored his use during the mind meld.
Regrettable but necessary.
I suspect this scene might make the studio nervous and threaten it's PG rating nowadays. One could make the argument that Spock is torturing his younger female subordinate and committing some kind of vaguely metaphorical rape as punishment. Nicholas Meyer and Nichelle Nichols knew what's up- Uhura's reaction of horror, rather than satisfaction that an antagonist character got her comeuppance is telling.
But- best scene in the movie, and one of the most powerful scenes this cast ever filmed. 1991 was a different time...
Leonard Nimoy did a great job, but Kim Cattral was amazing here, the primal sounds she made were on point. Spock two handing you will leave you wrecked and devoid. This scene is one of the darkest in Star Trek, and you feel like Spock is wrecking your mind as well as Valeris. One of the greatest scenes ever in Star Trek. Scottie's face is pure horror.
Section 31 approves of this act. If the situation is dire enough, the ends always justify the means when survival is at stake or in this case, you're working to prevent a war! A single individual violated, weighed up against an intergalactic war that could cost billions of lives......its a no brainer!
The galaxy had mercy. Lady Amanda's belt did not. Kirk nor McCoy's asses were spared either for allowing this . Sarek wisely snuck away not wanting to be next
The Klingons were in no shape to win a war. Ot certain Spock's actions were justified.
Of course she had a motive for it - it was in support of her evaluation of the politics between the Klingons and the Federation. Logic and ethics do not draw absolute conclusions when applied to real life. Spock's optimism and her pessimism are *both* logical evaluations of the situation.
Director Nicholas Meyer said he regrets this scene and would change it if he could go back. I think it works and shows how desperate the situation is. Spock clearly regrets it as his voice shows.
The Star Trek 6 novelization characterized this scene very well.
Thumbs up from me, this is totaly in character for spock, and is a brilliant scene , kim catrill done a brilliant job!
Ah, the lost art of subtlety in filmmaking; a time when we didn't need a lot of flashing lights, or snap zooms, or fancy computer-generated effects to tell us what was happening onscreen. All we needed were a well-written script, committed performances, and the deft hand of a skilled director. The thrumming heartbeat of a mind flayed open certainly added to the flavor...
Needs more screaming.
I saw this in theatres when I was a kid and distinctly remember that she clenched her fist so hard her own fingernails drew blood from her palm. I guess it was deemed to intense and subsequently removed from later versions...
I love Valeris as a character. We see other villanous vulcans but shes the first one who feels like shes justifying something terrible with logic. Its quite chilling for a species potrayed as above it all.
I appreciate that later down the line we see vulcans slot very naturally into starfleet intelligence and into section 31. After all, if theres going to be sabotage and assassination, it is only logical that they be carried out properly.
People talk about this like it's torture, And on a way, it is. But. To mind meld is to feel what the other feels; every dive and question and probe Spock reached out with came with a backflow of the motives, pian, remorse and all the other justifications we all bury under the decisions we make.
Yes, it was a brutal interrogation. More intimate and violating than anything we know, but it's one that takes as much a toll on the asker as the questioned. I think they handled it pretty well.
You could tell he learned something else from Valeris that he obviously didn't want to share.
“A lie?!”
“A Choice.”
How much must that have burned to have his constant use of loyalty to his crew and the people around him thrown back in his face as a way to justify her sabotage of any chance at peace.
1:50 Reminds me of how Shinzon's viceroy did to Troi.
Where was this.. nemesis?
Spock does one more Vulcan mind meld before retirement, one example of his improved character in this film over the last film.
Kim took that scene to the bank baby!!! Yaaaaassss
This is one of the best ST scenes ever. After such a painful meld, Spock's answer, "she does not know." lol
And it was at that point that he abruptly stopped the interrogation. There's an old saying that "no one can give what he (or she) hasn't got", and it was certainly true here. For anyone to continue the process beyond that point would be not only immensely illogical but also viciously sadistic.
Spock here demonstrates great judgement.
Barely any music and no special effects… And yet, such a terrifying emotionally charged scene
Minimalism drives horror and the scene is horrific. The subdued music and heartbeat suggest the negative space in horror, the quality of not knowing anything above the basic, vital functions of life and even those are tenuous at best. Good catch.
It may have been too dark, but I would've loved it if as a result of such a forced and deep mind meld, Spock left her catatonic
This is the star trek I want not the garbage they have now
Originally Kim Catrell's character was to be Savik...but because of this twist they came up with another similar young vulcan.
Originally in 1982 (2282ish to 2290) Savik was to be half Vulcan and half Romulan. That was in the first theaters cut and in the pre publicity info, but it was edited out before general theatrical release, because in TOS....
Only one Romulan had intimate contact with one Vulcan in thousands of years....yeah, his daughter.
Ah Spock, in this scene he's so _masterful!!!_
You mess with the captain Spock will hurt you. I love how angry he is in this scene
The first time we have seen a two handed mind meld and how much power an experienced Vulcan has and can do.
Behind the scenes, Leonard was angry with Kim for posing nude whilst wearing the Vulcan ears
Source?
Wait, is it? I've read about how Nimoy denied that it ever happened on a panel.
Wouldn’t surprise me
Disrespectful to Vulcans and Jews alike. Leonard meant no porn in his Shekima books of thinly-veiled women as they were the female version of God. I saw his exhibit many years ago and felt blessed. Even though I'm not Jewish, my church's BCP has the Jewish Benediction in it. That's where he got the Vulcan salute. I met him once at a CO telethon and we discussed the hand gesture. I told him that my pastor said that Benediction. He smiled and said." Where do you think he got it from?" "Our connection",I said.
He has stated several times that this is false. I actually asked him myself at a con nearly 10 years ago and he said he was irritated with her at the time, but that wasn't really the reason.
I always find this scene uncomfortable to watch.
As you should.
Thus a memorable scene.
Uncomfortable? I found it hot I mean as long as it’s consensual
This scene really displays how humanity will and still resort to torture if pushed into a corner. This tantamount to waterboarding. What's more disturbing is Doctor McCoy not protesting. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the ONE.
I always wondered how Picard would've handled this.
Picard would have made an exception this time, and would have asked Lwaxana Troi to do the good deed.
@@mardus_ee Of course Picard would break the rules if the end justified HIS needs. He's done so plenty of times before, along with Janeway and Sisko, the worst of the lot.
All these captains have blood on their hands. I guess that's part of the job description.
Spock: She does not know.
G'Kar: Then I will rip if from her mind! Neuron by neuron! All of it, Valeris, ALL OF IT!
0:20 you've heard of being manhandled? That's being Spock-handled.
Spock is violently plundering her mind
I dont care how many new actors they get to play Spock, there will ONLY BE ONE Nimoy. Everyone else is a comic-con joke.
I liked Zachary Quinta’s portrayal of Spock but didn’t care for how they wrote his character. I felt that Quinto was laboring to walk as closely in Nimoy’s steps as possible, but the character was written poorly.
@@socialcommentary1014 I can get on board with that! :)
I just love how her screams show spock's rage. His Vulcan training is failing as he's just beyond anger at this point and literally torturing her. Everyone is shocked at what he's doing and even himself
You knew it was about to get real when that second hand went on her face
Fun fact: Before the rewrite of the script, Valeris was supposed to be Spock’s love interest.
Captain Spock is cool❤
Apparently Valeris was supposed to be Saavik in an early draft of the script, but neither Kristie Alley nor Robin Curtis wanted to reprise the role, and the producers didn't want to hire a *third* actress to play the part. Plus Gene Roddenberry wasn't too keen about having Saavik betray the Federation.
Too bad, because it would have been a hell of a twist to have her go rogue, and it would've tied the movies together perfectly. Plus her betrayal wouldn't have been as ridiculously predictable as it was with Valeris.
It would have had more of a punch and made more narrative sense if it were Saavik
I don't think Spock intends it as a rape on her mind. It's like interrogation/torture. In a sense it's the same thing, but I doubt he had any malicious intent to make it worse. I think it is simply a violation to her rights as a Vulcan, and the fact she was probably fighting it off made it worse, and that is why she screams. A very awesome scene.
This is a good way to see if your GF is cheating on you.
lol it might end up being a painful experience "who you cheated on me with " Bobby, Michael, Fred, Tyrone, David... "Who else??! Who else!!!???" Joseph, Leonard, Candice, Rex the dog, and Chris who now goes by the name of Christina"
Fuck me!!
SteveSabbai
She does not know. Oh oh.
Or if your BF is cheating on you XDDDD
0:34 Spock had to show that Vulcan pimp hand😂😂😂
Mentals attacks are far worse than physical attacks, healing the mind isn't nearly as simple as waiting for the body to heal. Mental attacks are the real nightmares we should fear if encountered.
Well played by all actors in this scene. KiM Catrell was excellent as commander Savik.
Spock's Jack Bauer moment.
If I heard right, valaris was originally the saavik character. So glad they changed it If that was true.
They did change it but it was apparently because Robin Curtis wouldn't reprise the role for some reason. They were looking for another actress to play Saavik and decided to go a different route.
Spock’s Skills are on whole different level of
Extracting Information….🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣
I like the version where we see the conspirators faces better, even though we lose a couple of lines.
It wasn't until this scene that I realized that the Vulcan mind meld could be used as a two-handed weapon.
If you enjoy reading Star Trek stuff, I recommend Spock's World. It has a section where long before Spock and the Federation, the Vulcans had developed the mind to kill without touch. Like a mental death wish.
CHEERS from Colorado
Everybody misses where Spock threatens to do Tal-shaya on her.
omg. Was curious about what it was, and then read up on it at Memory Alpha. So it's a precise Vulcan neck-breaking method.
Best scene in the movie. A brutal assault by Vulcan standards.
A forced mind meld has been described in the books as extreme equal or greater than physical violation. Damn but that’s brutal. People always forget the Vulcans are a powerful and deadly desert people. The sands have no mercy.
This scene is very powerful in that Spock saw her as a wise Vulkan for her to betray there very logic etc I think hurt him deeply you can hear it in his voice
Heartbreaking moment Spock loses everything. He trusted her partly because she was pure blood Vulcan and I think he was in love with her. Terribly lonely man. So pitiful is Spock.
It really blurs the boundary between him and Mirror Spock.
You have to remember, this is a military operation. Even today, Military rule dictates that attorney is not needed.
3:15 of the following video link reminded me of this Star Trek scene....maybe the new movies will have an insane mind meld like this one
Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor - Talion Hunts Down Ratbag
Spock was pissed. 😎
The tragedy of this is that Valeris would be a valuable addition to Starfleet and would probably make great career in future, had she not been so stupid and listened to Cartwright.
Yes true, but I doubt that a Vulcan would even consider murder unless she had some terrible motivation for it. Vulcans and Klingons are completely different but her actions are more like a Klingon than anything else. I just don't see how even a grudge against the Klingons, as nearly all the federation have, could motivate her into murder and betrayal.