So incredibly sad. It's easy to think it's all in the past, but there are still so many who would cheer for the return of oppression. Don't let them win! This isn't a political distraction, it's the main event.
I want to have a mock birth to a wheel of cheese. That actually sounds like it would be so fun. Even today, just going to a pub with the lads and giving birth to a wheel of cheese sounds like a good afternoon.
Wow, I'd never heard about this until yesterday, when I bought a wonderful novel by Neil Blackmore called Radical Love, which I finished reading this morning. It is based on the true story of the Reverend John Church, who performed the marriages at Vere Street, and I'd highly recommend it.
I love that scene of the marrying couples having male bridesmaids in full regalia! The disdain for people of differing sexualities has cost us so much as a society. Imagine what those men could’ve contributed to society if we’d given them the respect they deserved? Such barbaric treatment. 😢
Of the 2 people that were sentenced to be hanged, one of them was 42-year-old John Newball Hepburn, and another one of them was a drummer boy named Thomas White was only 16 years old. Neither of them were st the White Swan the night of the raid but were arrested later on. They were also heavily denounced in newspapers at the time. (This is according to Rictor Norton's website)
The books and historical records you must read through are fascinating. You have previously shared some fun/interesting titles, please give us book recommendations again.❤
A painful and heartbreaking story, but thank you for sharing it. We have always been here, and there is a reason we have to fight the good fight. Very charming and sweet that they were able to be married there. At least for a little while, they were able to bring joy
this is so horrifying to think about and sounds like something that should have only happened long in the past, so it is all the more sad that things like these still happen all around the world...
I mean, it wasn’t until 2003 that Section 28 that banned teaching about homosexuality in school stopped being law. Before then, no one was allowed to learn what being gay was, gender identities, gay rights etc. You were just taught if you’re a boy, you like girls and if you’re a girl you like boys and that’s normal and nothing else. So that was only just two decades ago
@@Neoentrophy maybe try using Google ? + western countries/the west were/was not mentioned in the comment you replied to. This is what's meant by being 'western centric' Sigh
@@Neoentrophy like two other commenters already wrote, there are countries were being gay is illegal and punished by death, plus in most countries where being gay isn’t illegal lgbtqa+ people have to fear for their lives because they have high chance of being murdered and authorities don’t care to investicate deaths of marginalized people - in other words, just because there’s laws against something doesn’t help if those laws aren’t followed but systematically ignored...
Jeremy Bentham's argument for moderation in punishing homosexuality was interesting. He basically said "Yes they are sinners but from a utilitarian point of view they're also not going out on the streets and actually hurting people, they just keep to themselves. So chill TF out" im paraphrasing there. But I think he's correct just in general.
Unfortunately this kind of intolerance persisted for quite a while. Alan Turing was forced to take castration medication when his sexuality was discovered, despite the fact that his work decoding German communications helped to win the war faster. Turing took his own life because of the horrible side effects.
It's actually been confirmed that Alan Turing didn't take his own life. He worked with some toxic and poisonous substances and due to a lack of appropriate safety measures some quantities of those substances ended up on some of his food. So not suicide, a workplace accident that could have been avoided with appropriate safety measures.
@@CubedEyeballs Yeah the fact that they recorded a death by suicide so quickly, a lot of the time they liked an open verdict to protect families, this is despite the fact he was working with these chemicals, with little to no investigation, is a little suspect. It may have been accidental inhalation of cyanide fumes from an apparatus used to electroplate gold onto spoons, potassium cyonide being used to dissolve the gold. Turing had such an apparatus set up in his tiny spare room. Or he could have gotten it on his hands, clothes, or food. Supposedly there was a partially eaten apple, which was not tested. He left no note & did not get his affairs in order. His brother was told not to bother to fight the verdict as it was unlikely to be found as accidental (well they didn't look for evidence to the contrary did they). And it was all done whilst his mother was out of the country, who would likely have fought it. She never believed it was suicide & thought it was more likely a result of her son's poor storage of chemicals. He could have killed himself & left it ambiguous. Then again it could be a recorded suicide suited the state's character assignation of Turing at the time. Diaries suggested whilst chemical castration was not easy, he was not ashamed & got on with his life. He was a man who had lived openly & who had put up little argument or defence when put on trial. It could easily be that the idea he came to such a sad end as depression & suicide, was just used to set him up as a bad example of what can happen if you 'followed this way of life.'
@@CubedEyeballs I don’t think that’s so. It’s been conjectured that his death was accidental, but there is no proof of that and the verdict of suicide remains in place.
@@CubedEyeballs He played with spoons, plating them with gold. The "laboratory" he worked at would, in today's terminology, be called a "computing center". There is sufficient evidence that he did not die of a workplace accident. There is insufficient evidence of his actual mechanism of death, other than to say the official story is ludicrous…yet it remains the official story. While the reagents needed for his "spoon projects" could have poisoned him I'd need a lot more information and then to run a shitload of partial differential equations to evaluate that idea properly-ignoring everything that hypothesis cannot explain about the state in which he was found.
I've just been reading about the 18th century gay scene in Rictor Norton's "Mother Clap's Molly House", which is excellent. Chris Bryant's recent "James and John" is in my tbr- it's had some very good reviews.
Well, suddenly the etymology of “mollycoddle” becomes obvious, though the word itself doesn’t come into use until the nineteenth century. The more you know.
I was under the impression that the Molly Houses had regained popularity during the Victorian era, since we have the Cleveland Street scandal in 1889. Am I particularly off-piste on this one?
There were waves of suppression & persecution in the 1700s & 1800s. But yeah Queen Victoria came to the throne in 1837, and the 1800s were peak times for Molly houses, continuing even into the early 1900s. By then it's possible that aside from the persecution, society & gay subculture had shifted. In Georgian times gender roles had become perhaps more heavily defined & static than ever. Men were supposed to be assertive leaders, women submissive & maternal & none sexual ect. Molly houses were places for men to possibly experiment outside these strict boundaries. The Victorians had been keeping up appearances, but behind closed doors & in many other ways, things had changed a lot by the time Victoria died in 1901.
@sashakhan1262 My understanding was that the site at Cleveland Street was just a standard "molly-house," with clientele and staff who were all adults. If I'm wrong, then I'm happy to be corrected
@@neodarlek i don’t think so because the trial records include a boy aged 15. Also, I remember reading that the publicity of the case contributed to homosexuality being equated with paedophilia, replacing the trajectory towards pity felt for homosexuals by some (which had resulted in the abolition of capital punishment for sodomy), being replaced by viewing tbem as a threat.
"a common 18c. colloquial term for "homosexual man" or "man who is deemed effeminate, a sissy," by 1707, perhaps 1690s. The fem. proper name Molly or Moll served as a type-name of a low-class girl or prostitute in old songs and ballads (perhaps in part for the sake of the easy rhymes). But the colloquial word also resembles Latin mollis "soft," which also had been used classically in a specific pejorative sense in reference to men, "soft, effeminate, unmanly, weak," in Cicero, Livy, etc. A 1629 publication from the Catholic-Protestant theological disputes, "Truth's triumph ouer Trent," written in English with swerves into Latin, at one point describes the denizens of Hell as fideles fornicarios, adulteros, molles, and so forth, and molles is translated parenthetically in the text as "effeminate." Molly House as a term for a brothel frequented by gay men is attested in a court case from 1726."
Molly possibly came from the Latin mollis indicating the supposed passive-effeminate partner in male homosexual relationships. In the 18th century a Molly was a slang word defining an effeminate, usually homosexual, male. The Kent tradition of Hoodening includes the participation of a Molly; a male who takes on womanhood for the night. A Moll or Molly was also a lower-class girl or woman, occasionally a prostitute. So in this case the two definitions are combined.
Read 'Fanny Hill' by John Cleland, there is a graphic depiction of gay sex between two men, both Fanny Hill & Moll Flanders were what we would call pan/ bisexual having some female lovers.There is absolutely nothing new under the sun with human sexuality. Check out the 'Harlots Progress' by William Hogarth about poor sad Moll Hackabout, in one of the plates in Moll's room is a bundle of birch twigs for flogging some of her clients and so it goes on. I highly recomend the eyewatering " The Secret History of Georgian London" by Dan Cruickshank - Molly Houses amd so much more.
Well that wasn’t so cheery but 100% necessary to hear at the being of pride month. This is why pride is still needed. Thank you once again for very real history.
Genuine question: why did this happening then mean Pride Month is necessary now? Even if these men have living descendants (like either were bi or just married and had children for reputation), there’s no reason to believe the living descendants would be gay. Unlike black history month, as it’s likely their descendants would still be, in a substantial part, black.
This is somewhat unrelated but you’re the best source i know of to tastefully answer my question: What was “family planning” like for prostitutes in these old eras? Did they have a lot of kids living in the brothel, send them away (with or without financial help), or have some forms of birth control?
1810 ! Amazing. Of all the fiction and nonfiction I've read concerning the napoleanic era, i think only Patrick O'Brian gives passing mention of this facet of British society
I also have on occasion felt like i gave birth to a wheel of cheese, but on a more serious note, was being gay considered an identity under the law? i know of a case in Sydney Australia in 1813 where a man "proved" he didn't intend to commit sodomy by producing evidence of his interest in women
It wasn't attraction to other men that was illegal, it was the "unnatural" kinds of sex. The people at the time didn't have the same concept of sexual identity that we have today, the focus was more on behaviour.
@@SomeoneBeginingWithIIn the Bible Sodomy is any sex act that is not about procreation, as expertly explained in this paper The Real Meaning of Sodomy Google it and it’s only a 5 minute read. Sodom & Gomorrah we’re destroyed, because they did not offer hospitality with food and drink and a place to sleep for 2 strangers. It was added too much much later to describe sex that didn’t involve procreation, it was later chucked at Homosexuals. by Nick Gier, Professor Emeritus, University of Idaho For a book length study of this topic, see Michael Carden Sodomy: A History of a Christian Biblical Myth
@@SomeoneBeginingWithI That is still how the conservative right in the US sees it. That is one reason why they insist that it is a choice. The Catholic church has even it defined that way. Having an attraction to men is not a sin, just having sex with them. The other reason I believe they think it is a choice is that there are a lot of closeted bisexuals.
Queer wasn't an identity, under the law or otherwise, until the 20th century: it was an act/activity. To understand the rise of queerness as an identity I highly recommend the book 'Before We Were Trans.' It's an easy read and there might even be an audio book out there. And when I say queer wasn't a personal identity, I don't mean that only homophobes believed that, I mean the people we call queer now in modern day would not have seen it as an identity either.
Ok. But what happened? What flipped the switch from, What you do in there, we don't care. To Here's a new necktie Sally, I don't think it matters what heels you wear to your execution! Something had to have changed!!!
Well, the raid was carried out by the Bow Street Runners, who answered to the Bow Street Magistrates' Court. Could've been as simple as having a new magistrate installed. Looks like the one at the time was a James Read.
Simple, most of them were just poor people doing publicly what the rich did behind closed doors. And so when the moral panic came there was nothing protecting them. Something to keep in mind
@@vulpes7079 The moral panic is being pushed by power hungry politicians in the US right now. You may have laughed at the Bud lite memes and videos but people have been killed over the anti lgbtq crap here. A non binary kid in Oklahoma was beaten in the girl's restroom , the nurse refused care and the administration suspended the student for fighting. It gets worse because she died the next day of complications due to the beating.
Do we know what would have happened to them after they were pilloried? Would they have had to leave town because their reputations were ruined, or could they more or less return to their lives? RIP to the two who were executed 🙏🏳️🌈
FFS. I was having so much fun wondering if the cheese birth was just a joke, or something that could've been genuinely therapeutic for somebody struggling with gender dysphoria, and then we got to the reason for the warning.
Imagine being so full of anger and self righteousness that you’re willing to take a human life just because they don’t think and act the way you do. I’m so glad we don’t do that any more.
I mean a good few of them were possibly so full of anger as they had had to suppress themselves so much. Suppressing gay or bisexual feelings, but also a lot of shame & suppression towards sex & sexuality in general. Seeing others enjoy themselves may have been a bitter pill. Or they were self righteous as they had been doing & thinking about all sorts of things they shouldn't, so they focused on how other people were 'worse' than them so they could feel better about themselves & look good.
Replace "anger and self-righteous" with "fear and insecurity," and you're closer to understanding almost every moral panic humanity has ever perpetuated against a minority.
That's absolutely horrible and incredibly sad. What's worse is things are only just starting to be consistently better for lgbtq+ these last few decades. I hope it continues to get better
I love the info you present to us. I don't like the format. I want to say that's its skewed but I mean the video, not the perspective. I like your long form videos.
how sick does one have to be to come to a video about inhumane atrocities committed, and despite proof that people being gay is anything but new and they always have been, still call it "woke shite"? No one cares about your bitter attitude.
![The Grooming Panic of the 1980s [Long Shorts]](/img/n.gif)
That is horrifyingly interesting but also incredibly horrible at the same time…
So incredibly sad. It's easy to think it's all in the past, but there are still so many who would cheer for the return of oppression. Don't let them win! This isn't a political distraction, it's the main event.
Ah yes poor guys cant stuff a wheel of cheese up their arse
Its all so very sad. These were real people.
The White Swan sounds like such a delightfully wholesome place to spend time. What happened to those men is horrific.
I want to have a mock birth to a wheel of cheese. That actually sounds like it would be so fun. Even today, just going to a pub with the lads and giving birth to a wheel of cheese sounds like a good afternoon.
@@Mortablunt Sure thing, edgelord.
Are you okay?
Wow, I'd never heard about this until yesterday, when I bought a wonderful novel by Neil Blackmore called Radical Love, which I finished reading this morning. It is based on the true story of the Reverend John Church, who performed the marriages at Vere Street, and I'd highly recommend it.
Coincidence strikes again!
Ooh, thanks for the book rec 👍
@@daniellamcgee4251There is an actual name for this phenomenon of coming across something soon after you first learn of it.
Thank you for making me laugh and cry in just under 100 seconds~
Laughed for the disposal, cried we don't get rid of them anymore.
I love that scene of the marrying couples having male bridesmaids in full regalia! The disdain for people of differing sexualities has cost us so much as a society. Imagine what those men could’ve contributed to society if we’d given them the respect they deserved? Such barbaric treatment. 😢
Of the 2 people that were sentenced to be hanged, one of them was 42-year-old John Newball Hepburn, and another one of them was a drummer boy named Thomas White was only 16 years old. Neither of them were st the White Swan the night of the raid but were arrested later on. They were also heavily denounced in newspapers at the time. (This is according to Rictor Norton's website)
When she says “there was a butcher, there was a tailor” my brain autocompleted with, “there was a policeman, there was a Native American…”
LOL My mind went to "baker, candlestick maker," but yours is way funnier and better fitting.
The Native American probably isn't as unlikely as we'd think, lol
there was a YMCA, they're coming to stay at the YMCA
🎶"M---O-L-Y! My spelling ain't so good, M---O-L-Y..."
The books and historical records you must read through are fascinating.
You have previously shared some fun/interesting titles, please give us book recommendations again.❤
And here I thought a molly house was a place where you could get marijuana and that they had these in Georgian times. Learned something new today
A painful and heartbreaking story, but thank you for sharing it. We have always been here, and there is a reason we have to fight the good fight.
Very charming and sweet that they were able to be married there. At least for a little while, they were able to bring joy
I read a really good novel featuring Molly houses - it’s set in the 1700s but it’s called The Fatal Tree by Jake Arnott.
this is so horrifying to think about and sounds like something that should have only happened long in the past, so it is all the more sad that things like these still happen all around the world...
I mean, it wasn’t until 2003 that Section 28 that banned teaching about homosexuality in school stopped being law. Before then, no one was allowed to learn what being gay was, gender identities, gay rights etc. You were just taught if you’re a boy, you like girls and if you’re a girl you like boys and that’s normal and nothing else. So that was only just two decades ago
It was 200 years ago. Still horrifying but that was pretty far in the past.
@@Neoentrophy I mean you can look up map that will show you countries like Saudi Arabia that give gay men the death penalty if caught
@@Neoentrophy maybe try using Google ?
+ western countries/the west
were/was not mentioned in the comment you replied to.
This is what's meant by being 'western centric' Sigh
@@Neoentrophy like two other commenters already wrote, there are countries were being gay is illegal and punished by death, plus in most countries where being gay isn’t illegal lgbtqa+ people have to fear for their lives because they have high chance of being murdered and authorities don’t care to investicate deaths of marginalized people - in other words, just because there’s laws against something doesn’t help if those laws aren’t followed but systematically ignored...
Well that is wildly horrifying.
Jeremy Bentham's argument for moderation in punishing homosexuality was interesting. He basically said "Yes they are sinners but from a utilitarian point of view they're also not going out on the streets and actually hurting people, they just keep to themselves. So chill TF out" im paraphrasing there. But I think he's correct just in general.
He correctly described that tolerance should afforded to everyone, for whatever their weirdnesses, so long as they are not harming others.
I wish the upvote on videos wasn’t called “like”
At least they lived and were happy together for as long as they could be
Unfortunately this kind of intolerance persisted for quite a while. Alan Turing was forced to take castration medication when his sexuality was discovered, despite the fact that his work decoding German communications helped to win the war faster. Turing took his own life because of the horrible side effects.
It's actually been confirmed that Alan Turing didn't take his own life. He worked with some toxic and poisonous substances and due to a lack of appropriate safety measures some quantities of those substances ended up on some of his food. So not suicide, a workplace accident that could have been avoided with appropriate safety measures.
@@CubedEyeballs Yeah the fact that they recorded a death by suicide so quickly, a lot of the time they liked an open verdict to protect families, this is despite the fact he was working with these chemicals, with little to no investigation, is a little suspect. It may have been accidental inhalation of cyanide fumes from an apparatus used to electroplate gold onto spoons, potassium cyonide being used to dissolve the gold. Turing had such an apparatus set up in his tiny spare room. Or he could have gotten it on his hands, clothes, or food. Supposedly there was a partially eaten apple, which was not tested. He left no note & did not get his affairs in order. His brother was told not to bother to fight the verdict as it was unlikely to be found as accidental (well they didn't look for evidence to the contrary did they). And it was all done whilst his mother was out of the country, who would likely have fought it. She never believed it was suicide & thought it was more likely a result of her son's poor storage of chemicals. He could have killed himself & left it ambiguous. Then again it could be a recorded suicide suited the state's character assignation of Turing at the time. Diaries suggested whilst chemical castration was not easy, he was not ashamed & got on with his life. He was a man who had lived openly & who had put up little argument or defence when put on trial. It could easily be that the idea he came to such a sad end as depression & suicide, was just used to set him up as a bad example of what can happen if you 'followed this way of life.'
@@CubedEyeballs I don’t think that’s so. It’s been conjectured that his death was accidental, but there is no proof of that and the verdict of suicide remains in place.
@@CubedEyeballs He played with spoons, plating them with gold. The "laboratory" he worked at would, in today's terminology, be called a "computing center". There is sufficient evidence that he did not die of a workplace accident. There is insufficient evidence of his actual mechanism of death, other than to say the official story is ludicrous…yet it remains the official story. While the reagents needed for his "spoon projects" could have poisoned him I'd need a lot more information and then to run a shitload of partial differential equations to evaluate that idea properly-ignoring everything that hypothesis cannot explain about the state in which he was found.
Tolerance is not a virtue.
I've just been reading about the 18th century gay scene in Rictor Norton's "Mother Clap's Molly House", which is excellent. Chris Bryant's recent "James and John" is in my tbr- it's had some very good reviews.
Some things never change, huh.
When they say progress and attitudes aren’t linear in history…
Love your content. Always interesting stuff ❤
You
I wanna take you to a molly house
I wanna take you to a molly house
I wanna take you to a molly house, molly house, molly house
Electric Six
LOL Oldie but goodie❣
Gotta be like us, just like everyone else, or else....
Well, suddenly the etymology of “mollycoddle” becomes obvious, though the word itself doesn’t come into use until the nineteenth century. The more you know.
How do you mean, sorry?
The butcher... the baker... oh... and the candlestick maker.... good heavens those candles...
Sometimes you can’t help but lose hope for humanity.
I was under the impression that the Molly Houses had regained popularity during the Victorian era, since we have the Cleveland Street scandal in 1889. Am I particularly off-piste on this one?
It is true that gay men eventually started meeting up again. Perhaps the distinction is that it wasn't the same type of space.
There were waves of suppression & persecution in the 1700s & 1800s. But yeah Queen Victoria came to the throne in 1837, and the 1800s were peak times for Molly houses, continuing even into the early 1900s. By then it's possible that aside from the persecution, society & gay subculture had shifted. In Georgian times gender roles had become perhaps more heavily defined & static than ever. Men were supposed to be assertive leaders, women submissive & maternal & none sexual ect. Molly houses were places for men to possibly experiment outside these strict boundaries. The Victorians had been keeping up appearances, but behind closed doors & in many other ways, things had changed a lot by the time Victoria died in 1901.
I’m not sure an upper-class child brothel can be compared to the White Swan.
@sashakhan1262 My understanding was that the site at Cleveland Street was just a standard "molly-house," with clientele and staff who were all adults.
If I'm wrong, then I'm happy to be corrected
@@neodarlek i don’t think so because the trial records include a boy aged 15. Also, I remember reading that the publicity of the case contributed to homosexuality being equated with paedophilia, replacing the trajectory towards pity felt for homosexuals by some (which had resulted in the abolition of capital punishment for sodomy), being replaced by viewing tbem as a threat.
Why were they called molly houses? Like what's reason for the word molly.
"a common 18c. colloquial term for "homosexual man" or "man who is deemed effeminate, a sissy," by 1707, perhaps 1690s. The fem. proper name Molly or Moll served as a type-name of a low-class girl or prostitute in old songs and ballads (perhaps in part for the sake of the easy rhymes).
But the colloquial word also resembles Latin mollis "soft," which also had been used classically in a specific pejorative sense in reference to men, "soft, effeminate, unmanly, weak," in Cicero, Livy, etc. A 1629 publication from the Catholic-Protestant theological disputes, "Truth's triumph ouer Trent," written in English with swerves into Latin, at one point describes the denizens of Hell as fideles fornicarios, adulteros, molles, and so forth, and molles is translated parenthetically in the text as "effeminate." Molly House as a term for a brothel frequented by gay men is attested in a court case from 1726."
it's a common female name. They were mocking gay men by calling them female names. In the US they used the term Nancies
Molly possibly came from the Latin mollis indicating the supposed passive-effeminate partner in male homosexual relationships. In the 18th century a Molly was a slang word defining an effeminate, usually homosexual, male. The Kent tradition of Hoodening includes the participation of a Molly; a male who takes on womanhood for the night.
A Moll or Molly was also a lower-class girl or woman, occasionally a prostitute. So in this case the two definitions are combined.
@@antoniousai1989 Oh,yes I have heard the term nancies.
@@bigblue6917 Thank you. This makes sense now.
Giving birth to a wheel of cheese sounds like the most Londonite thing imaginable
Jebus… as they say in the classics… fuck!
Christianity - two thousand years of peace and tolerance
The ultimate gaslighting experience
@silkvelvet2616
True. They caved to us just a bit and now they think they have the right to attack Muslim countries for doing the same thing.
Another classic banger video
That was super depressing.
A comment for the algorithm
I realize it's not the point of the video, but where does someone get an entire cartload of dead cats?
Read 'Fanny Hill' by John Cleland, there is a graphic depiction of gay sex between two men, both Fanny Hill & Moll Flanders were what we would call pan/ bisexual having some female lovers.There is absolutely nothing new under the sun with human sexuality. Check out the 'Harlots Progress' by William Hogarth about poor sad Moll Hackabout, in one of the plates in Moll's room is a bundle of birch twigs for flogging some of her clients and so it goes on. I highly recomend the eyewatering " The Secret History of Georgian London" by Dan Cruickshank - Molly Houses amd so much more.
Thanks, I hate it.
Well that wasn’t so cheery but 100% necessary to hear at the being of pride month. This is why pride is still needed. Thank you once again for very real history.
Genuine question: why did this happening then mean Pride Month is necessary now?
Even if these men have living descendants
(like either were bi or just married and had children for reputation), there’s no reason to believe the living descendants would be gay. Unlike black history month, as it’s likely their descendants would still be, in a substantial part, black.
Awee I was hoping this was about MDMA, poor gays! I may not fancy it but stopping people from being happy when not hurting anyone else is kinda evil.
This is somewhat unrelated but you’re the best source i know of to tastefully answer my question: What was “family planning” like for prostitutes in these old eras? Did they have a lot of kids living in the brothel, send them away (with or without financial help), or have some forms of birth control?
1810 ! Amazing. Of all the fiction and nonfiction I've read concerning the napoleanic era, i think only Patrick O'Brian gives passing mention of this facet of British society
What was said, I can't imagine Jack Aubrey being particularly tolerant of them, Maturin on the other hand...
@@Alex-cw3rz Andrew Wray. There is a molly house scene actually. I can't remember which book. It's been 20 yrs. Maybe reverse of the medal ?
Ok technical point here. Who were the 200 police officers sent to guard the prisoners if the Met Police was not formed till 1829?
Just crazy, and sad, but sounds exactly like how things happened in that time and place.
Jfc
I also have on occasion felt like i gave birth to a wheel of cheese, but on a more serious note, was being gay considered an identity under the law? i know of a case in Sydney Australia in 1813 where a man "proved" he didn't intend to commit sodomy by producing evidence of his interest in women
It wasn't attraction to other men that was illegal, it was the "unnatural" kinds of sex. The people at the time didn't have the same concept of sexual identity that we have today, the focus was more on behaviour.
@@SomeoneBeginingWithIIn the Bible Sodomy is any sex act that is not about procreation, as expertly explained in this paper The Real Meaning of Sodomy Google it and it’s only a 5 minute read. Sodom & Gomorrah we’re destroyed, because they did not offer hospitality with food and drink and a place to sleep for 2 strangers. It was added too much much later to describe sex that didn’t involve procreation, it was later chucked at Homosexuals.
by Nick Gier, Professor Emeritus, University of Idaho
For a book length study of this topic, see Michael Carden
Sodomy: A History of a Christian Biblical Myth
@@SomeoneBeginingWithI That is still how the conservative right in the US sees it. That is one reason why they insist that it is a choice. The Catholic church has even it defined that way. Having an attraction to men is not a sin, just having sex with them. The other reason I believe they think it is a choice is that there are a lot of closeted bisexuals.
Queer wasn't an identity, under the law or otherwise, until the 20th century: it was an act/activity. To understand the rise of queerness as an identity I highly recommend the book 'Before We Were Trans.' It's an easy read and there might even be an audio book out there. And when I say queer wasn't a personal identity, I don't mean that only homophobes believed that, I mean the people we call queer now in modern day would not have seen it as an identity either.
@@MoonLitChild thank you i have just bought "before we were trans" :)
Ok.
But what happened?
What flipped the switch from, What you do in there, we don't care.
To
Here's a new necktie Sally, I don't think it matters what heels you wear to your execution!
Something had to have changed!!!
Well, the raid was carried out by the Bow Street Runners, who answered to the Bow Street Magistrates' Court. Could've been as simple as having a new magistrate installed. Looks like the one at the time was a James Read.
@@Brasswatchman
Thanks.
So basic law enforcement.
The pendulum swung the other way.
Simple, most of them were just poor people doing publicly what the rich did behind closed doors. And so when the moral panic came there was nothing protecting them.
Something to keep in mind
@@vulpes7079
The moral panic is being pushed by power hungry politicians in the US right now.
You may have laughed at the Bud lite memes and videos but people have been killed over the anti lgbtq crap here.
A non binary kid in Oklahoma was beaten in the girl's restroom , the nurse refused care and the administration suspended the student for fighting.
It gets worse because she died the next day of complications due to the beating.
Good golly...
Before clicking thought: ‘No way were they rolling in the 1800s!’
After clicking: ‘Well that’s horrific, what a brutal comedown…’
Thank u for the content warning, I will not watch
I thought this was gonna be a video about people taking molly in the olden times. Colour me disappointed and horrified 😫😫
Thanks for the historical info, but I also can't bring myself to give it a like. :(
I know the feeling, but consider the thumbs up as a thankyou to J for telling it and to get this video suggested to more people.
Thank you ❤
Mocking giving birth to a wheel of cheese is pretty funny, though.
Thank you
The kind of history that we need to talk about but isn't taught in schools
I've studied the 18thC. How am I today years old first knowing about this amazing place and this awful event? Thank you.
Really? That's it? I thought it'd become more gruesome than that. Ok, cool story though.
Fascinating, and also horrifying what happened to them.
Wow. What a story. So sad.
Do we know what would have happened to them after they were pilloried? Would they have had to leave town because their reputations were ruined, or could they more or less return to their lives? RIP to the two who were executed 🙏🏳️🌈
Frightening that the hate is still simmering away.
That is terrible😢
😥
The violence always gets to me.
Thank you for the content warning!
FFS. I was having so much fun wondering if the cheese birth was just a joke, or something that could've been genuinely therapeutic for somebody struggling with gender dysphoria, and then we got to the reason for the warning.
Imagine being so full of anger and self righteousness that you’re willing to take a human life just because they don’t think and act the way you do. I’m so glad we don’t do that any more.
I mean a good few of them were possibly so full of anger as they had had to suppress themselves so much. Suppressing gay or bisexual feelings, but also a lot of shame & suppression towards sex & sexuality in general. Seeing others enjoy themselves may have been a bitter pill. Or they were self righteous as they had been doing & thinking about all sorts of things they shouldn't, so they focused on how other people were 'worse' than them so they could feel better about themselves & look good.
Replace "anger and self-righteous" with "fear and insecurity," and you're closer to understanding almost every moral panic humanity has ever perpetuated against a minority.
That's absolutely horrible and incredibly sad. What's worse is things are only just starting to be consistently better for lgbtq+ these last few decades. I hope it continues to get better
.
That's terrible 😞
I love the info you present to us. I don't like the format. I want to say that's its skewed but I mean the video, not the perspective. I like your long form videos.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I couldn't find anything like this happening in the US, in the early 20th century.
Interesting , bcs most upper class English French. Aristocrats associated alot with gay men and women.
This video ended positively, we could use some of that old fashioned morality today.
You look and sound like tracer from overwatch lol
Spot on! 😊
Some things really do make one love the past.
But you're too cowardly to explain why
Disgusting topic. 🤮
Please stop with the woke shite…nobody cares…just history
how sick does one have to be to come to a video about inhumane atrocities committed, and despite proof that people being gay is anything but new and they always have been, still call it "woke shite"?
No one cares about your bitter attitude.
You people really hate freedom of speech.