How to Convert a Motorcycle to an Electric Airplane in 501 Easy Steps
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- We could kid ourselves and say electric airplanes are making great strides but...they aren't. Electric airplanes are coming for sure and are making progress, but their capabilities are still limited. In this video, KITPLANES editor at large Paul Dye explains how he used a Zero motorcycle powertrain to power a Xenos kitbuilt motorglider.
The process is actually not as complicated as it might sound, but in this interview, he explains what was involved. And interestingly, the electric power system is a good fit for a motorglider.
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www.kitplanes.com/the-exenos-... - Авто та транспорт
This is probably the most intelligent, down to earth, good/practical Q and A I have seen. Solid questions, good answers, WTG guys.
Can we start a GoFundMe for Paul Bertorelli so he can give his granddaughters headset back?
Actually made my cats jump when I laughed at this 😂
Bahahaha!
Amen to that! 😂😂😂
😂 Plot twist: his granddaughter wears David Clarks to listen to music.
😂
This is intriguing… but I’m still mourning the passing of the moustache 👨🏼🦳 😭
Wh/kg is specific energy, Wh/m^3 is energy density. Let's prevent the misunderstanding from spreading👍.
Good presentation/discussion on this by the way.
Energica makes motorcycles with DC chargers that charge in about 30 minutes. They've gotten a much better range than the previous generation Zeros these two used, too.
Faster charging will be a great feature eventually, but it depends on infrastructure upgrades at airports...
Paul, you really ask very good questions. Thank you.
I'm not an electric motor enthusiast but must say this was very interesting. I believe there will be a niche market for a plane like an electric Xenos. Salute to Mr. Gabe Devault too for making an electric plane a real possibility. Thanks Paul and Paul!
The problem with electric plane enthusiasts at the moment is, that they are still shunning the ICE as a range extender.
Depending on mission requirements, there is a minimum battery capacity needed to cover the power requirements and the range can be extended by adding a motor-generator combination for recharging while soaring.
I mean, the xenos only uses 10kW in level flight, so the generator does not need to provide much more than that for a cruise power application.
The comment about the J3 Cub is very interesting. It's fun to fly with a friend, but if you want to go somewhere, what would the flight time be if the back seat had an adult's weight of battery? Fly a little, get a cheeseburger while the plane recharges for several hours, shoot the baloney with some guys in a hangar and fly back. Sounds like a fun day. We're clearly not going to have an electric 172 in the next couple of years, but it does seem like we are getting closer to making some "fun flying" practical with an electric setup.
This battery system doesn't have fast charging; which most cars would have and it's a much smaller battery than a car would have. That's a fixable problem. You'd fly it for an hour or so, and then charge it up in about 30-40 minutes while you get your burger. Also, the energy density on this battery is nowhere near state of the art. Probably similar to other electric vehicles, which would be around 200-240 wh/kg. There are several companies that are starting to produce and sell 500 wh/kg batteries. CATL just announced a battery system like that and there's another company called Amprius that is also starting up production for a 500wh/kg battery. Both companies are targeting the aviation industry with this.
The same weight battery with a density like that on a plane like in this video would massively extend the range. Probably get you close to 200 miles. You'd use the same amount of kwh to get up and beyond that it's just cruising at relatively low power levels. And of course it's a glider. So, you'd probably be able to extend that quite a bit fiurther by just making use of thermals.
I'd say it's a matter of time before some larger experimental plane gets equipped with a battery like that. I'd be very surprised if that doesn't happen in the next few years. The tricky bit is getting access to the batteries. They are for sale now but production volumes are low and demand for these is such that you'll have a hard time buying one.But there are going to be plenty of people interested in getting their hands on one. Some of them pretty wealthy. And of course most of these batteries are earmarked for companies that produce drones and planes themselves. The certification process is going to take ages for that. Which is why experimental planes are probably going to get there first.
@@JillesvanGurp Wh/kg is specific energy, Wh/m^3 is energy density. That misunderstanding needs to be squashed. 👍
@@watashiandroid8314 If you fly a plane. weight is the metric that matters. You have to take every gram up that you put in the plane. Volume is more related to drag and aerodynamics. You could easily fit a few mwh of battery in a plane. But it would never be able to leave the ground. Because of the weight.
This is a great proof of concept, and seems perfect for local flying, but the issue of transporting it cross-country is very true... most airports don't have 240v available unless they also host campers😂
The most practical way I see to get this to Airventure this year would be to follow it with a Caravan carrying a 240v generator👍 it would still be an adventure but seems like it would be straightforward.
Alternatively, you need to partner with a charging point manufacturer and local air clubs across the country to get the countrys first trans-continental air charging network set up! That would make headlines for sure🎉
Great vid as always Paul thank you! Paul Dye is a fun guest and very knowledgeable. About the fire risk - could a fire suppression system be fitted to electric airplanes? Nothing epic but just enough to make the flames retreat and the temps to get under control so the pilot can put it down right THEN (no trying to fly to nearest airport unless its right below - put it down now).
Nothing puts out a battery fire, except tons and tons of sand. And sometimes its more an explosion than a fire
That is why firefighters utterly hate electric cars
phantastic content, thank you so much! Electric planes will be a HUGE gamechanger for flight training and the usual short sightseeing/club flights. With the battery packs we will have in 5 or 10 years we will probably fly 1000km with electric planes!
One note is the the charge time can be reduced to 1 hour using about 15lbs of additional onboard chargers, a cable harness, and a more powerful AC hookup. Say, 2 NEMA 14-50 “RV plugs” should do it.
I’ve used such a setup to tour on a Zero electric motorcycle.
The comment about prop noise being the main noise source regardless of the power plant is spot on. There is a NASA engineer, (Al Bowers) who redesigned cooling fans for the Space Station based on his airfoil research into the Prandtl Wing. The redesigned fan reduced noise by 88%, increased flow by 24% with the same energy input. It looks to me like one way to get a big boost in performance would be to CNC cut a new prop based on Mr. Bowers research.
I worked maintenance for a school district. We were replacing our classroom HVAC units and a couple manufacturer engineers were there to instruct us on their features and operation. They said their units were much quieter because of the fan blade design in the squirrel cages. I asked if they used laminar flow blades. Their eyes got large and they asked me how I knew about laminar flow. I said I was an aviation nut and laminar flow was like the holy grail of wing designers. They said laminar flow was exactly the reason their fans were so quiet.
Toroidal propellers ua-cam.com/video/E8L8I0dLh_o/v-deo.html developed by MIT engineers
I want to see this for Energicas!
did not expect this video to be so enjoyable
Electric Glider Association. Didn't they play Woodstock?
I have some EV engineering knowledge from promoting EVs over the years. Can the Xenos actually do the 24:1 glide they claim? I wonder if that number isn't a touch optimistic because the Pipistrel Taurus has similar range with less than 1/3 the battery and the motor they use might not be the most efficient. Say you quadruple the battery capacity of the Pipistrel which can be done with 75kg additional, suddenly the range is 400+ km. I figure that a purpose built flying battery can push up to 1000km range. You are not going to cross the atlantic but could be usable. Just like with cars, the right charging infrastructure at airstrips can make a big difference. My Tesla can charge at 1600km/h which means adding 160km range in 6 minutes. Twice the speed of an airliner so unless you are really in a hurry, it's not a time issue. A plane would be slower but not necessarily by much.
A battery plane that could fly from LAX to SFO without recharging is quite conceivable with today's tech.
As for battery fire, that's extremely rare for an undamaged vehicle. I'm not sure that Teslas catch fire today at any rate without damage. Further you can make a compartmented pack, say 2 blocks in a thin metal case and a vent to the outside such that a complete battery fire would just be exhaust and the plane could continue with the second pack. that would seem prudent however rare.
As for noise, with electric drive you can easily have two rear ducted fans instead of the usual offensively colonial tractor noise maker that pistons have. In the necessary glider style craft, it would presumably be a very civilized ride.
Because battery drive can have an angry amount of power you could make electric planes with scifi-esque performance. Including spirited vtol and skip the whole runway thing. Say you take off from your driveway and be 300km down range in an hour. Zero overhead. With the right charging infrastructure you could well imagine that battery flight has so many advantages that most would prefer it for GA use over fuel. If done well. If suddenly every house is an airpark and flying is free because it's powered by a few solar panels on the house roof. Last I checked, flying a Baron is anything but free.
If you want to go 600km and you have to set down twice for 10 minutes each, is that a deal breaker if it's virtually costless and you don't need runways. How great is the average private pilot flight really. LA to SF is 541km, Miami to Bahamas is 285.
Slightly amusing if a vtol could just use Tesla's charging network.
The first powered car was shaped like a horsedrawn carriage, just without the horse. That was a bad design. New capability requires rethinking everything.
I'm sure Paul has already thought about it but need the motor to recharge the battery when its wind milling while looking for a thermal or descending without power on.
Chances are that regen while gliding isn't productive as the additional drag produced would likely not be worth the charge generated. Regen while slowing down on descent would be productive, but you'd likely still come out ahead if you instead pulled power earlier and glide down with the prop free spinning or stopped.
@@dirkmohrmann8960 worth testing especially if you can adjust the force of how easily the prop windmills or not
In my Aerovee powered Xenos I have flown for 3 hours with only a 5 minute engine run, even here in, thermally unremarkable, central NY state
Both you guys should talk to Dick Vangrusven about electric airplanes. He has been flying an Antares 20 m self launch very high performance glider for years. Just this last year one of the major German glider manufacturers has started producing a self launching electric high-performance glider.
Paul, with the Zenos motor Glider you have should have no trouble getting to the homebuilders meeting in Tehachapi on a good storing day.
This is exactly what I'd like to do and has been my dream since I saw the Tesla Roadster in 2008. I wanted to use the Waeix, but the Xenos does make more sense. 😁
Makes me want to convert a Bonanza into a motorcycle... Great video with lots of good info. I wonder if you can do regenerative charging while soaring? Here's another thought how about an ejectable battery pack, small charges to cut the connections and mounts and bye-bye battery... Just a thought. Another good one guys.
regenerative charging while soaring
@@braincraven as soon as I posted my thought I thought of the drag factor///
I've had a Zero electric motorcycle for 9 years now. Maybe this will be its fate too 😉.
Zero honored the 5 year battery warranty on mine - the battery slowly died after 3 years, due to a bug in their charging system (it trickle charged the cells when they were already full, which destroys the cells). The replacement has done another 25,000 miles without issue. I don't think I'd like to have this in an aircraft though, because the indicated battery state of charge (percent remaining) isn't reliable. Also, the way the system handled a bad battery was not great: sudden loss of power, so full throttle would give you 17mph. Nice when you're in a middle lane on a busy freeway! Would not want to rely on that for go-arounds.
Energica eva has 21.5 kw battery and 171 hp motor.Would be a great match for this project.Easily over one hour flight time plane only.
With lithium ion battery the bms should keep track of number of charge/discharge cycles as well as capacity degradation. Other than that, not discharging it below 20% is really advisable, since beyond that point the voltage drops like a rock, which could be a safety issue. Fascinating topic, thank you for covering it!
In fact GA rule says land with 15minutes left of fuel minimum. To avoid the same issue.
@@jamesordwayultralightpilot Does it apply to gliders?
@Jaakko is watching lmao I'm sure they have their own way of knowing when they're done flying
Yeah the Zero BMS knows the cell voltage states, several temperature sensors, resistances to ground, and overall lifecycle history and manages it pretty well independent of the main bike board.
I wonder if okay to build a Xenos with tricycle gear and retractable nose gear … even if a manual operated retract?
I have a Zero DS but really not willing to sacrifice it😅
I wonder if the good people out at Castle Creations could make a speed control that would use less programming.
XC? Just land near RV parks, they always have 240v available. Just need to find a convenient lot!
Interesting and well configured video. An impressive and well executed e-thingy, even if good for only 45 minutes. Paul, I see you shaved your “tash”. Looking good!
One critical point. !!!!
Does this bike have a integral to motor gear reduction? Does this gear reduction have an oil pump? Tesla stuff has an oil pump and if the motor is run in reverse, an aftermarket oil pump must be used otherwise the gear box will fail.
It's a belt reduction, no? Easy Bob. Four exclamation points, really?
I designed a conversion of my pick-up truck, but even with a glider-like wing, it was under-powered.
Please share flight videos
It would be better to configure it using the same configuration as a prious
So. "The prop was a wash." There's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm not going to make it.
Put electric on the RV12 so you can easily take the wings off. 😊
The whole industry, cars included, need to have quick change battery packs.
The problem is deciding on an electrical as well as a physical standard.
Three batteries for the flight school might be the ticket
Agreed. It seems like the flight school solution would be swappable battery systems.
Swapping a 180lb battery is not going to happen on a daily basis.
The most reachable option is to double the charging speed so the aircraft can be turned around in 1 hour vs 2 hours.
@@BrianTRice77 In the world of fork lifts, 2,500 + lb batteries are rottenly changed by a single person so the next shift has a full charge. Many times this is a human powered change out using rollers. Working up a quick change for a sub 200 Lb battery is a non issue.
Could a windmilling prop not be used as a RAT for KERS type re-gen in the descent? : )
The main scenario I can think of where this would be useful is to tow gliders.
If it uses about 10% battery to climb each 1000 feet, you couldn't tow the glider very high even on a full charge.
@@j_taylor I guess you are correct. I also wonder how much more charge it would use pulling the extra mass.
Electric planes will only truly become viable once someone perfects the swappable battery. Electric chainsaws are fantastic around my farm and electric battery drills are fully mainstream but these work best because you have 2 or 3 batteries and swap them out. If someone finds an easy method of changing a 180 pound aircraft battery then they suddenly become a whole lot more viable for a whole lot more use cases.
2 or more batteries always charging,
If Zero is smart, they will get over themselves and start making kits
It's all about litigation liability. That's the catch. One has to take that on themselves.
@Bert Ruttan not too much liability selling Electric powerplants. You could slap a sprocket on anything and make it electric. If they made a conversion kit for a dirtbike and someone used it for a plane, it would be their own fault if it didn't work out. But think of the money they could make just selling the kits for dirtbikes. Billions of dollars to be made.
I know Zero very well, and their legal department is highly defensive. I wish I knew why. But they only want to deal with major corporate partners like Polaris who puts the powertrains into quads.
@Brian Rice I mean they aren't the only ones doing it so someone will eventually cash in. There's definitely a market for it.
@@jamesordwayultralightpilot Yes, and I’m the maintainer of the unofficial Zero manual website and have been arguing in that direction for a while. We still haven’t seen it, unfortunately.
I do not think there are billions to be made in electric dirt bike conversions, though. Kit profitability hinges on mass production and each model fits differently so there would be a lot of R&D overhead per model. Not for the motor, mind you - for the battery.
Just need motor specs
Never mind dont need a 180# battery
The motor is very lightweight, so battery and motor mass mounts the original engine and the fuel. He says so in the video that the Cg was the same without compensating.
Sound like it is only useful for playing around by an airport, for going anywhere it is just not capable. It is a toy, but toys are fun so there is that,
All gliders are toys. Motor gliders are just "slightly" more practical.
سبحان الله وبحمده سبحان الله العظيم 😇💯
Considering Zero Motorcycles is an awful company, this is the best thing I can imagine doing with one of their bikes. The tech is good, the company is awful.
What an absolute waste of time and money.
enjoy it while it lasts. keep a fire alive for it when it all comes crumbling down. (can you tell i've watched too much sid smith (collapsologist))