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Webley-Kaufman: The Improved Government Pattern Revolver
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2020
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Michael Kaufman was a talented gunsmith who worked for the Webley company from 1878 until 1881. While there, he patented a substantially improved clockwork for the gun, removing 5 parts from the system and improving the trigger press. He was paid a royalty for this system, which was tracked by the stamping of “MK” numbers on each gun so equipped. Between 1882 and 1885 Webley made three iterations of revolver with his lockwork, continuously improving the the latch system that held the frame together while firing. This example is a third pattern, of which fewer than 100 were made. It is the first appearance of the classic stirrup latch locking system, which was patented by Webley himself and would be used in all future patterns.
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"gave Webley plenty of opportunity to provide a better product"
This is the smoothest insult I've ever heard
lmao
Typical government product from Enfield!
Timestamp?
Matthew Doye I guess you missed the part where Ian says this is NOT a government contract. Enfield was the in-house gun supplier to Her Majesty’s armed forces. Webley wanted to get a pistol contract and improved their pistol until it was good enough to be approved.
@@samiam619 I'm afraid you misunderstand me, I meant the Enfield revolver was a typical government product. Just good enough to do the job yet lacking the refinements that come from competition. As Ian says it wasn't exactly hard for Webley to produce something better.
I have to say I love those "birdshead" grips on Webley's, or revolvers in general :-)
I do mounted cowboy action shooting, imo the birdshead grips make it much easier to work the hammer on a SAA.
@@Reuter6795 I once got the chance to shoot a solid frame Webley "improved army express" with similar grips and similar sights. As Ian mention in the video, when firing aimed shots, those features made for amazingly fast target acquisition.
The shallow vee notch is reminiscent of the express sights found on large bore english double rifles. I suppose because both have the same purpose, quick sight aquisition under duress. As a side note it would be really cool if you could interview Ross Seyfried sometime. He really is the guru on british guns from this era.
Before the First World War most (if not all) armies required an officer to buy his own kit. Uniform, weapons, Horses etc for British officers there was a co-operative society called the Army and Navy Stores which could supply everything from a button to a saddle for a Camel. In Russia you bought your cavalry sabre from the cavalry training institute and your side arm from the weapons training institute. Japan had an almost identical system to Britain but known as Kaikosha.
During Colonial Times' British Officer's were required to buy their own sidearms. So you could find a lot of different types of weapons filling out this role as sidearm for officer's to use.
British Officer in Africa 1880s: I have my revolver, my swagger stick, a cup of tea, and a huge mustache. I can conquer anything!
Wrong ... British Officer anywhere in the world ...
Afghans: *are you sure about that*
@@maxschaeffner9005 well TBH one doesnt simply become the grave of empires by being s bunch of pushovers
Tally Ho, yippety dap, and zing zang spillip! Looking forward to bullying off for the final chucker?
The swagger stick - wouldn’t want to face German machine guns without that :)
Classic beefy revolver, sweet presentation box? Sold!
I wish webley was making new revolvers. Or someone, maybe smith and wesson top break types for modern loads. I do love top break revolvers.
James Thomas If you have the money (and I mean a lot) Anderson Wheeler do one
Anderson Wheeler in the UK makes custom Webleys right now. 7 shot .357 magnum, 6500 pounds.
Same :/ Too bad Taurus doesn't just rip off a bunch of classic designs but in modern alloys and modern calibers :/
@@grayeaglej Guess what most people would rather buyl...you want niche, you cough up.
Uberti in Italy makes classic break open revolver clones like Schofields and other classic revolvers.
I often wonder about the history of these guns; some would have pretty dull back-stories but others would have seen some amazing adventures in some distant parts of the British Empire!
The E.M. Reilly & Co. label in the case is quite cool in itself. I don't think I'd seen the terms "double-fowling pieces", "pea rifles" or "air canes" before. =)
I'm pretty sure a double-fowling piece is just a double barrelled gun for shooting birds but I'd love to know more about pea rifles and air canes
@@TertiaryBrewing Yeah I'm sure that's what double-fowling means too, but it's an interesting term for it that I had never seen or heard of before. Air canes apparently are some sort of large bore single shot air guns in the form of a walking cane, and pea rifles are would appear to be muzzle loaders that shoot pea sized ball ammunition. Would indeed be interesting to hear more about these, they seem quite forgotten! =)
@@jubuttib Hi, I'm Matthew and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Forgotten Product Names.
Re the case, given the difference in address and the lack of obvious place for the spare cylinder I think it's possible someone has combined an empty case with a separate revolver.
I was also wondering if the case had been "put together" with a different revolver. We have a provenanced 1877 Webley-Pryse in its original Rilley presentation box in our museum collection, and the mahogany wood, workmanship and layout of this box is of hugely higher quality. The box in this lot by contrast seems to be made from cheaper wood, have a modern clasp, and has staining around the edges of the interior where it looks like an original lining could have been removed. The label is also stained, but the lining around it isn't. The lining is also roughly glued in and not properly ironed out smooth. Not conclusive, but would make me wary. Nice revolver. mind. EDIT : at 2:42 you can see modern steel hex-nuts have been used to to bolt the top of the closing clasp in place.
Reilly had two shops in London. " In November 1881 Oxford Street was renumbered; '502' became '16 New Oxford Street' and '315' becoming '277 Oxford Street.'"
See:
www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-new-history-of-e-m-reilly
www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-life-of-reilly
@@AerialImagery Thanks for the info and link!
@Papa Legba Where did the bad man touch you?
@Papa Legba In what way is it 'fraudulent'?
Fascinating! And here I thought the Ashley Express sights I put on my Kimber only dated to 25-30 years ago. Nothing new under the sun!
That is one nice-looking top-break revolver, if I ever saw one!
*Mad Lads theme starts playing*
A man of culture
Albert Dryden.
Lol that’s right away what I thought of
But, before we get into the mad lad...
Bruh
Hi, Ian. Interesting iconic Webley style. Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
It's a handsome pistol. Alwayd like them since I saw one in Indiana Jones.
His original sidearm was a S&W.
In the second he carried a Smith and Wesson .38 victory
That's what made me like Webley's too.
@@michaelgoldman1433 in the second he carries a Colt Official Police that transforms into a .38 Victory when WIllie throws it out the window.
@Garrison Nichols S&W Hand Ejector, but it has commercial grips on it, no lanyard ring, different barrel length, front sight is different as well. Hard to tell caliber from the brief appearance in the screen shots.
That Revolver looks pretty damn nice
Great job Ian! Can tell you're enthusiastic about these =)
Informative and Literate presentation. I look forward to these!
Ooooh! Shiny. Really nice looking revolver. This really got my interest up about Webley.
I just love how they machined them back then
Last time I was this early the sun never set on British empire
It still doesn’t. Who’s language, customs and culture are you using?
Still dosen't , technically.
Hey, the last time I was this early, Richard the V? Never heard about him, was he famous?
Fun fact: Britain was named by the romans.
"The Sun never set on the British Empire, because God doesn't trust the British in the dark."
Interesting gun and history of the Webley.
I love the look of Webley military revolvers
Looking at that label (2:41), why haven't you shown us any pea rifles or air canes? I'm curious now.
This is, by far, the most English thing I have seen this week. After watching I was forced to use “bits and bobs” in a sentence.
Bits and bobs is so useful for bits and bobs
I studied "abroad" in san Salvador in the early 2000s. I worked for a man at his smith shop while there in possibly less-than-legal circumstances. He had one of these in what I would consider to be in as 'mint' a condition a revolver of that age could be. I've never forgotten that pistol, despite only seeing it a few times. I've desired one since that day.
Beautiful peice of machinery and history
I would do unspeakable things for a webley-Fosbery but unfortunately I’ll have to settle for a Webley-patent Enfield, sadly. I don’t know what it is about the webley revolver aesthetics, but I love it.
God it's such an awesome revolver. Definitely a classic
Thank you , Ian .
Fetch my lanyard will you Jeeves, I feel like having a bit of an explore this morning.
As you wish sir *presents over a lanyard* will this suffice good sir?
A hundred and five shillings was five guineas. A guinea equalled twenty one shillings. FWIW.
Ah yes, the good old days where nothing made any sense 😂
@@bmstylee "we"
Welcome to the Old Times of Imperial system! Comparing to that the Modern Imperial System is a paragon of standardization
@@bmstylee I had an onion on my belt
it was actually £5 as we stopped using guineas in the early 19th century, and £1 back then was worth twenty shillings. Which actually makes it worth 5.5 Pounds, and that in today's money is would be £711.40.
This is so nerdy of me, but I must confess that part of the reason why I liked this was the Victorian typography
Fine sights were not essential with an angry Zulu coming at you! Seeing him half a mile away was enough!
Hi Ian, 1 S.F. Probably 1st Battalion of the Sherwood Forresters.
If correct it's lucky this gun is not from the 1970-80's as it would be then be 1st battalion The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment - who insisted it was always written in full and not abbreviated to 1WFR. You would need quite a big gun to write that on!
I was thinking Southampton Fusiliers. 😁
@@zoiders That would explain the Smile face at the end of the sentence 😁.
@RocketSurgeon ... poor robin has been equipped with just about everything else by hollywood, a webley is at least British. Fully expect him to be equipped with a M4 MWS at some point. ;o)
Two points….there were 20 shillings in a £ ( the shilling goes back to the Anglo Saxons )
…….the Kaufman thumb release is the same on my Webley air pistol !!
I know cowboy action shooting is big,but I wish some company would make high quality reproductions of these old revolvers. Chambered in .45 acp or .45 acp rimmed would be bad ass!!! Hell,bring back the .455 webley!!!
That is one very nice revolver!
That sight is akin to the xs big dot. Crazy how ideas come full circle over and over again
Yep. I put some XS Big Dot Express sights on a Glop 30 some yeara ago. Love them. Fast and accurate. The gun was very accurate to begin with, even with the cheese whiz factory sights. The XS sights are even better. Thinking about putting some on a 1911 or maybe the front sight of my SP-101
Always love the Webley! :)
Lots of good historical info here. Went back and looked at video again but cant see anywhere the caliber is mentioned.
What a beautiful revolver
If you ever get the chance to do a video on one, the URZ Plamen would be a great addition
I wonder why Webley pattern revolvers almost disappeared in modern firearms world but swing cylinder are ever popular?
Break actions systems are generally not strong enough for potent smokeless-powder cartridges used today. Solid frames are much stronger.
MP-412 REX
anyone?
@@ForgottenWeapons Thanks.
Forgotten Weapons Any thoughts on the Anderson Wheeler Model VII? It’s a webley style in .357 Mag that reportedly has none of the expected loosening issues. I’d think modern metallurgy and sufficient material (perhaps a slightly different lock up) would handle 44 mag and other high power cartridges just fine.
I’d love to see a video on the AW VII, but at $8600 I don’t think we’ll see one unless fireplace guy likes it
@@windstormscr8948 Me want.
It looks so gorgeous
I have one of the last Webley top breaks in .38 caliber. Not .38 special but the original. 38 short. Never fired and still in the original box with papers.
Not 38 short either but 38/200 ,almost identical to the US Smith & Wesson 38 S&W , different projectile.
Such a beautiful revolver. Specially in nickel plating.
8:59 I thought that the irongsights for the Webley in Battlefield 1 and 5 were not historically accurate, changed for gameplay purposes, and weren't real. Seems I was wrong in this example.
Ian helped with one of the Battle feid games ,bf one I think
7:53: Ian - "I do not know." I never thought I would hear Ian utter those words.
It's interesting it has Oxford street on the gun. Oxford street is still a massive shopping street in London with all the flagship clothing stores etc.
I don't think you have done one on the .38 caliber Enfield No2 Mk1. It was the final stage of these revolvers and is truly nicely balanced with it's 5" barrel. I did some really fancy revolver twirling with this gun when I was in my teens, and it's heavy (but smooth) trigger pull did wonders for my trigger finger. I did cut myself a few times on the front sight though :(
I wish I could find good reproductions of old guns like these
@Matt I guess that the Italian started the production of repros on account of cowboy action shooting, and this may go to explain the varying quality of Uberti's production for a start. I have noticed that in the past 10 years far more people got in old firearms generally (either black powder or smokeless).That initial start - plus the presence of a strong industrial district that did not buy in the delocalization bullshit - gave them an edge in the sector. I am watching a few European YT channel and black powder old guns are getting popular, so it may well be the case that the most iconic European models would sooner or later start to be offered, such as Martin-Henry, maybe dare I say it a Mannlicher 1886 or a Vitali-Vetterli repro in suitable centerfire cartridges such as 45-70?
Webley are making the MkIV from original drawings, only as an air gun unfortunatley, but it is nice bit of kit to pose with.
There are toys like these in Philippines, they could fire blank firecracker and the cylinder could be removed from the top, most of them are dyed/colored black
@@UCmDBecUtbSafffpMEN3iscA Back in tha days of Common Sense in UK a friend has a collection of Webleys from .22 Rimfire up to .455, he was popular at the range as he would allow you to try them out. Kids like me grew up with the Webley, everywhere from Sherlock Holmes to Films and Balck and White TV. None of those weird Colts, or .45- No self repecting British Hero at the time would carry anything but a Webley! They really are a Britsh Icon.
@@scipio10000 Italy also has some weird gun law that makes it where those cowboy guns are way easier to get that. Something modern.
Love the Webleys. Which I could afford one.
You should review the Andy Kaufman Revolver. Chambered in .44 Lawler.
This is the best channel change my mind
I dunno about this channel and beets but it is the *best* when it comes to historical firearms.
Dwight Schrute wants to know your location.
I have not watched a better channel about beets.
It was a typo
I think British pistol doctrine for the time period of this gun. It would mostly have been used as point shooting or even hip fired by military personal and therefore sight picture not so important.
Great video
hey Ian I know you probably wont see this but i was wondering if there was any more info on the chinese mystery pistol book, not trying to rush ya just super excited
Awesome I want one.... Unfortunately I'm in New York state they don't make it easy here... Land of the Free huh
You can get one easily given that you have the money, the problem is if you want to carry it, then its almost impossible.
move somewhere more free ;)
Very nice implementation and interesting revolver technology for the time period. The final thoughts I drew from the video included the dichotomy of officers having to purchase decent pistols with the assumption that government issued pistols were lacking. I wonder if enlisted men were allowed to do the same - as though it was an affordable option. You know military thinking they want everyone to be the same. Except for the entitled officers it would seem.
BTW, the green material lining the box is actually felt made in the same manner as paper by mixing fibers - and omitting the final pressing step - rather than being the described velvet, which is a mill-sewn fabric (in rows & columns). I blame my mother for these grammar/spelling nazi comments.
I suspect that the enlisted couldn't afford to buy a firearm, while anyone coming in as an officer could.
Why would the gun be sold with a spare cylinder? Was it a bulky early version of a speed loader, swapping a loaded cylinder for an empty one using that push button release? Or did the spring ejectors break easily so you needed a backup?
You da best Ian!
Is there any word on the WWSD 2020 rifles and when they might be shipping?
I miss your musical intro with the Ross rifle kaboom.
It looks new!
"1. S.F." Possibly first company Royal Scots Fusiliers? They were posted to South Africa from 1910 to 1914. A second more likely candidate would be the 1st company Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire Regiment) who served in the 2nd Boer War from December 1899 to September 1902.
There is one thing you seem to have missed - that gun is in remarkably good condition.
I think I recognize that extractor/ejector mechanism. So Indiana Jones' revolver (at least in the Last Crusade) was a Webley?
I sure do love me a break top wheel gun.
Any idea why there’s another cylinder?Just a spare or for different cartridge?
Have there been any webley top break revolvers made in a Calibre that is still common today. I really like the webelys cool action and I would like to own one in a more common calibre than .455
The webleys carried by RAF pilots in WW2 were chambered in .38 special.! That's the one I want.
Just got a uberti model 1873 .45 colt and its giving me issues lol darn revolvers
My dad had friend with a collection of webleys but when he died his wife surrendered to the police and 10 to 15 historic guns were destroyed such shame
So is there a version of this revolver that is available to buy and shoot today?
E.M. Reilly was a gun manufacturer all right. He made high quality targeting rifles. Most of their production was no frills but quality rifles made in large numbers to make up for lower margins. He obviously had this thing made by Webley, probably to have something to sell customers who came by his shop or to up-sell to customers who came for a target rifle which is not unusual. Marking the gun with the brand of the seller was also normal at the time.
@Papa Legba Don't tell me it's fake, tell RIA.
Webley, did you hear about this one?
Tell me are you locked in the punch?
Webley, are you goofin' on Elvis, hey baby
Are we losing touch?
If it's good enough for Indy it's good enough for me!
T.sf seems like an importation mark to me. An individuals last names first initial or a company initial and san fransisco .
Did tiffanies have a san-fransisco butique?
Why no modern top breaking revolvers?
I understand, that it created weak point in structure.
But there was significant improvement in metallurgy since 1900's and the metal we have today should be strong enough for moderately powerful ammo (if not for p++/magnum 'most powerful round in the world').
How wrong am I?
Very nice pistol for its age ! Who was the first to design a top break revolver, Enfield, Smith & Wesson, Webley ?
I did a little bit of digging (a quick google search to be honest) and found out that first patent for top break revolver was in the name of Richard Brooman in 1850s, first popular top break revolver though was probably S&W model 3 from 1870.
Juicewski2 Thanks for this answer.
Great video! I have some questions about the Webley. I have have a nickel plated revolver which belonged to my grandfather who was a RAF bomber pilot during WW2 and I would like find out some more information about the gun. Who can I contact for more info?
You can’t go wrong with a webley 😁
Very nice
Sweet!
I thought coarse combat sights were a relatively recent, modern thing
2:48 Lower right of the label. "Air Canes"?
Do you think you could make a vídeo of a 700 caliber nitro express gun ?
thanks
Anybody have any info on the 1879 webley tranter?
Looks like a "Peaky blinders" gun.
can you do a video on the Enfield revolver? I have one and I want to know more about it.
ua-cam.com/video/QmPZ89VRg0k/v-deo.html
@@frc_9933 sorry, I meant the Enfield No. 2.
Wonder if the extra cylinder was ever used as a speed loader ?
This is the Webley I imagine Dr John H. Watson carries.
Do you know if there was any preference for Blued vs Nickel among Military purchasers?
That is was Nickel thought to be too reflective, too distinctive or possibly to attract unwanted attention in battle in the way (I understand) it was not a good idea to have a horse in any color other than brown?
Considering most military sidearms of the time spent most of their time in flap holsters I very much doubt the visibility of the finish mattered.
As for horses, I have yet to see any historical calvary force committed to a single colour or even breed of horse.
@@clothar23 the Royal Scots Grey's would like to have a word, sir. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Scots_Greys
@@ScottKenny1978 Fascinating..also the irony of Scottish units with the Royal prefix never fails to amuse me.
@@clothar23 yes, I also find that amusing, but as someone of scottish descent I think it comes from the various royals saying "swear loyalty to us and you will never be without a fight again!"
@@ScottKenny1978 Seems as likely a reason as any.
Regardless I slaute thee for teaching me this day.
Where do you get all the information about the gun???
Books internet other collectors
Can't wait for Ian to get his hands on, and review, the Webley - Vickers 50.80 machine pistol!!!
Ian - yes, I know. But please find a way to do it anyway. LOL
"Front rank fire, second rank fire...." Ahhh days of empire and black powder Martini-Henry's. Gonna go for big bucks at Auction to the Webley lovers. "1 SF" it's my gun.
funny you mention iteratively i was thinking for their automobiles
Webley = instant like.