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"Hill's Patent" Stanley Bull-Dog Revolver: Blatant Patent Theft in 1878
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- Опубліковано 24 вер 2023
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The Stanley Bull-Dog revolver is an English-production revolver which is marked as being "Hill's Patent". The gun uses an interesting simultaneous ejection system similar to the Fagnus - which one assume was the subject of Hill's aforementioned patent. The guns were made in a variety of configurations (blue, nickeled, various barrel lengths and calibers, etc).
Hill's actual patent (number 3645 of 1878) is actually a provisional patent relating to the lockwork that turns the cylinder. In fact, the ejection system used on the guns was invented by a Belgian named Jean Mathieu Deprez-Joassart five years earlier in 1873. Deprez-Joassart did patent the mechanism, and Hill appears to have simply claimed the system as his own and convinced a British gunmaker to pay him royalties for guns made with it.
Thanks to Select Fire Weaponry of Waukesha, Wisconsin for loaning me this revolver to film.
Thanks also to Littleton.Be for use of photos of Deprez-Joassart revolvers - you can see their whole page on the man here:
littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...
Contact:
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That angular barrel is aesthetically pleasing.
I love polyganol barrel design, such as the Winchester Model 1892. Some .410 “poacher" shotguns in the UK had octagonal barrels. They were called poacher shotguns as they folded in half to fit inside a long coat with poacher pockets (pockets large enough to conceal braces of pheasant and rabbit).
I think it was easier to manufacture hexagonal and octagonal barrels without the use of large lathes and large areas for engineering machinery. Typically they would forge or grind them into shape.
Gotta love the gnarly revolver designs from the late 1800's and early 1900's. Thanks again Ian!
Those are my favorite
Same. These are my favorite part of the show. I hope they make a playlist on Weapons and War that's just Forgotten Weapons 1900s revolvers, and then another one for C& Arsenal.
Back when all guns didn't look exactly the same.
@@monotech20.14its like convergent evolution.
What a grotesquely clunky and fiddlesome period it was
"It's definitely not select-fire."
I am now wondering how a select-fire revolver would even look like and how would one even function.
EDIT: Guys, I know that the Pancor Jackhammer exists. Problem with that is that the Jackhammer was only a prototype and never went into full production.
As for revolver autocannons, those are pretty cool but are too large and impractical for handheld usage.
Now I'm curious.
Look no further then metaba unica 6 and webly autorevolvers… should look similar
If I would hazard a guess, it would probably be something like the Unica 6, but with the trigger disconnecter modified.
The Pancor Jackhammer is a revolver. 😁 jk
There are a number of auto ejecting and self cocking "revolver" designs that have been done, Webley-Fosbery comes to mind as a "full auto' revolver if you operate it wrong enough ...
I remember reading an article by Leroy Thompson. IIRC, he attended university in Great Britain in the late 60’s -and when he came back to the states he worked as a deputy sheriff for some sort of municipality. He carried a Webley RIC snub loaded with .45 auto rim hand loads as his off duty concealed carry piece. He assisted the Sheriff in an arrest and both the perp and the Sheriff were suitably awed by the huge bore of a tiny funky revolver like the RIC.
I got to handle one of those back in the late 1980's. An elderly neighbor of mine had one that belonged to an ancestor of his. If I remember right it was the sidearm of his great great (however many greats) uncle on his mom's side. He carried it as a detective in late 1800's Detroit. Kinda cool to see one on here. I actually have no idea where that pistol is today.
1:05 Stanton & Co could be Stanton Ironworks, who were based in Derbyshire about fifty miles from Birmingham. They only went out of business about 15 years ago, a lot of British people will know them as the guys who manufactured most of the manhole covers in the country. (Seriously, if you’re in the UK then look down next time you walk past a manhole cover and there’s a very good chance it will have Stanton stamped on it.)
Love these old guns, the most interesting firearms come from the periods where people are still figuring things out.
One thing is that it is also possible that whoever made/sold the gun simply assumed there was a person named Hill with a patent to attempt to fool others into not competing with them. It could be that the Mr. Hill that you found had nothing to do with the whole thing. As you point out research was much more difficult at the time.
I was thinking the same. Those patent marks could be the same as "Brevet" and "Wauser" plastered all over Chinese mystery pistols. Somebody with toolings to make that type of revolver, most likely in Belgium, made them for the British market.
The Hill patent he shows says nothing about the ejection system. Its about the trigger mechanism.
@@Mini-TOutdoorsMedia Ian said that in the video.
@@Mini-TOutdoorsMedia , That's true. All the more likely that someone would blindly copy the words that were used on a completely different revolver.
So we need to look at the trigger mech to see if it follows the patent. We are assuming that the Hill patent marking was being used in reference to the ejector mechanism, but we don't know that it was.@@thelaughinghyenas8465
Something I'd expect to see Dr John Watson slip into his pocket to accompany Sherlock confronting some master villain.
For some reason, the revolver is instantly recognizable as British and would fit well in an old Sherlock Holmes movie.
The "Bulldog" is *the* British pocket pistol.
That winged logo looks very similar, if not, identical to the Longines winged hourglass logo. Longines is a major Swiss watch company and their winged hourglass logo is the oldest unchanged active trademarked logo in the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) which was registered in 1889. However, similar variations of that logo seem to have been in use by Longines since at least 1860.
Patent warfare is an amusing subject, I wonder whether the whole concept was to navigate around the patents for the sort of top-break auto-ejecting revolvers Webley and S&W presumably held at the time.
I work in the patent law field, so whenever patents are mentioned in your videos, it’s quite interesting.
I wonder if the company making these revolvers, may have just added the hill's patent section because they thought it would sell better in england if it looked like an english patent gun. The trademark logo looks identical to Longines which is a swiss watchmaker. Longines could have made the gun and lockwork and sold it to Stanton & Co for sales in england and then Stanton & Co added the Hill's Patent mark to improve sales.
Regarding patent law, a Belgian patent protects a manufacturer in Belgium and needs to be filed in the UK to give you any protection. Hill couldn't get a patent because the Belgian patent was prior art. To get royalties you needed a patent from the particular country you were planning to sell your product.
There is no "worldwide" patent.
This is probably what happened.
"Prior Art" is the big catch and is one of the reasons just applying for a patent is fiercely expensive.
In these times, patenting "something" is almost not worth the expense. Industrial espionage and rapid reverse engineering and "alteration" (or outright cloning) is rife.
The "burnout" time on new products and designs is quite short. This is exacerbated by the blatant "creativity" of at least one major global economic player.
If you think you have a "winner" on your hands, it might be wiser to keep it completely under wraps before it hits mass release. AND have the "follow-up product in prototype or better at the same time. This, of course, means having solid financial support. But it may still be cheaper than going through the possibly "leaky" patent process. "Word of Keyboard" will publicize and sell stuff a LOT faster than things moved in the 20th Century, let alone the previous one.
nowadays a patent in belgian is automatically one thats also registered in the netherlands, luxembourg as well.
It’s this kind of video where Ian shows off the iceberg-like research that goes into his videos. We only ever see a small percentage of that.
Thats the one of the coolest ejections ive ever seen. Please show more fun ejections!
Surprised it doesn’t say “BELGIANSBELGIANSBELGIANS” on the side
I wonder what the Longines watch company trademark is doing on that pistol? One of the world's oldest trademarks, it was established in 1889.
The question you bring to my mind is; Does This Pistol use Hill's Lock-work?
Forgot - It was marked on the barrel " The Stanton Stanley " - I was told that Stanton was a Birmingham manufacturer and Stanley was to " Honour " Henry Morton Stanley ( who " found Dr Livingston ) - It was in 38 cal with about six inch barrel - Phil .
I love bulldog revolvers. Wish I had more of them. This one is very cool.
I'm sure Hill's characteristically British reasoning was that since Deprez-Joassart's country wasn't real, his patent wasn't real, either.
i wonder if they called it a stanley to cash in on the stanleymania sweeping the world at the time due to the famous explorer.stanley had close ties to belgium the uk and of course the usa so would be a great name to use on a pistol as he was a famous shooter of game and people.
Excellent as always.
I would carry that thing back in the day for sure. Very cool story behind it as well.
My favourite era for this kind of revolvers
get the long barrel one and imprint the word "Parable" underneath
And then an extra long barrel one (think The Joker in Batman 1989) with "Stanley worked for a company in a big building where he was Employee Number 427."
Good thing you decided against taking it to the range! It is illegal in most states to fire one of these without wearing a top hat, a monocle, and brass-and-leather motor goggles. :D Steampunk AF!
Solid legal advice!
Good Sir.
You forgot the need for a grip, and man cape for protection against the elements.
As always thanks for another rare cool gun Ian
Weird take but one of my favourite episodes of the last7 years. I love the legal mixed with the mechanical.
Also it sounds like you are exited about the unknown element of the patent. How difficult would a book about dubious patents be?
There's your next book, Ian, "Dodgy Bulldog Revolvers of the World".
I've wanted a bulldog style revolver for years, preferably in a caliber I can still get ammo for (even if it is special order, like .455 Webley or .45 Auto Rim), but I can never find one that isn't either insanely overpriced or in terrible condition.
And here I was last week imagining a revolver that operates like this 😮
Sometime in the mid 1970s one of my brothers invented the internal combustion engine.
It feels as if the original was an attempt to get around a Webley patent for break-top revolvers by having the mechanism fold up instead of down. The Webley design is intuitive whereas this is weird - you have to twist the barrel to point back at yourself.
Yes, before 1883 it was a civil law matter not criminal so it required a plaintiff to take it to court for damages and, hopefully, costs. The old black powder 450CF was a very practical pocket pistol cartridge for guns like this being a reasonably heavy bullet with a controllable recoil which was useful with the short pocket revolver butt. I suspect it to be Belgian made from aspects of the finish and the lock work was probably not in the best steel so rather soft. OK for a pocket revolver that was used rarely and lived in a drawer or pocket rather than the range.
i love this little guy!
i know the sights will be crap but id love one!
looks cool. love it
Great video!
Hey Ian got Waukesha right in this one! Haha just joshin around, love the video as always!
Yes defending patents could be more trouble than it was worth. Even Webley seems to have made no attempt to defend its patents on the Bulldog pocket revolvers made in such profusion in Belgium.
The crazy graveyard of Victorian-era handguns.
Please send that gun to Anvil. I would love to see Mark Novac get that gun on working order..then a new video of Ian shooting it in a match ..that would be super cool
Love the Bull-dog brand of pistols. Easy to keep in a pocket or a bedside draw
I'd love to see a select fire revolver in an action comedy movie as an absurdist gag.
This thing is fascinating like genuinely
I really like the design, small and compact, revolver, my type of weapon
awesome thank you ian
Ah one of my most used weapons in battlefield one. The snub barrel and the fancy ejector make it even cooler than the game version.
It was in battlefield 1?
@@phil_zupra_b5880 What wasn't, at this point?
@@leszekkadelski9569 I would remember a reverse break open revolver like that in bf1 but i guess not lol
This isn't in BF1 😭
The "bulldog" revolver in Battlefield 1 is a Webley RIC, which is a completely different revolver.
0:55 Nice portmanteau there, Ian.
Another Great Video 💯Thank you Ian 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Nice video.
Thank you, very interesting
Boy, things certainly advanced between this model and the Walker Bulldog 😅
DJ Ejection. Very popular at parties. I like that you found out who actually invented that system.
The Dupu... The Dup... The Dupui...
The "Hill" revolver. 😅👍
Thanks for the obscure tomflippery that makes my day excellent hah.
Awesome!!! Super Neat.
I was gunna say wow, that thumbnail pic is blurry, then started the video and realized, oh the gun itself is blurry. Lol
There was a popular idea of reproducing straight copies of other designs, then make fake paperwork and let people chase ghosts over a few hundred production models. Marking up an item with patents for renowned designers would act more as a prestige piece. Sort of like off-brand items today.
You find similar all through that century, I think Conan Doyle complains that the Astor-Patent pistol has a screw-threaded barrel and removable cylinder, so that the Astor pistol frame can be rebuilt for different ammunition types, but in practice a lot of Colt clone pistols were branded "Astor Patent." Likewise, a few companies tried to use "Brunel Patent" in association with that engineer, though he rarely patented anything. It's an air of authenticity that it is a British fire-arm, rather than Imported European or American.
I'd assume it was Stanton and Sons, Chester. because they preferred doing milled hexagonal barrel weapons. I've seen some of their rifles and shotguns. Not the finest engineering in the world but they certainly made serviceable-enough. Stanton Ironworks would make a few weapons but mainly experimental developments for regional shooting championships, to my knowledge.
Gun jesus and king nerd ! I have a feeling that Ian's gunsmith has a job for life 🔫👍
I would be curious if Hill's patent applies to the lockwork of the little snubbie.
At that time, I imagine lots of patent protection was handled by a guy named "Tiny" asking you to please stop.
And Tiny’s friend Bruno
Mmmmm very smart engineer, constructor, mechanic. How I can't remember that is possible to made this mechanic, construction like that. Very good construction, mechanica. I must do one they something like this mechanic, construction. Thank you for the video. Really thank you.
I poked around and found it's a double-action revolver, something not mentioned in the vid.
The winged hourglass is similar to Longines the swiss watchmaker logo
That break looks like it was designed to be followed by the sentence "oh for f***s sake" as something falls out every time 😂
Thank you , Ian .
🐺 Loupis Canis .
A low end "barker" for a Victorian ruffian. 😁
"Ah, the patents I could sell you! So many of them mine"
-W.J Hill, probably
Ah, any relation to Prof. Harold Hill? 🎵🎼We have trouble right here in small arms history that starts with P... ...🎵 Patent
If you were making a movie this would be a cool gun for your protagonist to reload...
0:53 "On the opposide."
OR... Hill was the agent that had a portfolio of Belgian patents for sale and Stanley got lazy (or didn't want a French name on) labeling it.
A certain Rollin White sighs in frustration whenever "Is it really worth to go after this patent theft, how much do you have to spend to get anything out of it" is mentioned.
"It's definitely not select fire."
I immediately imagined a full auto revolver 🤔
The logo on the side is very similar to the logo used by Swiss Watch Maker Longines, which is the oldest trademarked company logo still in use. Is it possible he copied both the design of the pistol and then copied a logo for good measure?
Oh look, a reverse Webley!
Between your video's, and Othias' at C&Rsenal, it seems like getting a patent in Europe, especially in revolvers, was a waste of time.
They seem to have just used what ever looked appropriate and to hell with the patent owner.
Things get named for the guy who stole them best, like the "rebounding hammer".
It's like trying to follow spaghetti.
It's interesting how Europe at the time was a bit like China a few years later, and the whole Far East many years after that - fast and loose with intellectual property.
ok so... now my curiosity has me wandering what, if indeed it ever existed, the device that Hill actually patented looked like
the original version of this is also the model of revolver used in president Garfield's assassination; the man who shot him purchased it for that purpose because he "thought it would look good in a museum"
That looks like fun. I've always wanted to burn my hand on a hot barrel every time I reload.
A true gentleman would have a handkerchief handy ;)
@@leszekkadelski9569 Or hand it to his man Jeeves to reload it for him.
Had one of these in U.K. Govt. took it in '97 - Phil .
So was this original research? Impressive.
PLEASE REVIEW 327 FEDERAL MAGNUM !! S&W Model 632 comes to mind compared to the Ruger SP101 or Ruger LCR !!
Is this an old video he finally uploaded?look at the quality. It looks like it's one of his 2000s videos from being in a fluorescent lit backroom.
I think its recent. This same exact gun from select-fire is up on gunbroker right now, ending tomorrow or something.
Is this book of patents complete, or might some patent numbers not be totally known about in detail, or missing from the list for whatever reason (lost original documents or whatever)?
Forgotten Weapons still need to use a less darkly colored cloth as the background. While this nickeled revolver shows up well enough, other weapons with bluing or parkerizing do not show details well at all.
What were the ballistics on that .450 rd, 230 gr at 230 ft per second? Lol.
That trigger guard attachment looks uncomfortable as heck.
A screw and that lump? Ick.
Thank s
When the trade mark is literally "Trade mark", you might get a bit suspicious.
Is there a name for this type of break on a revolver? It's not top break, which is the only one I know of, and I can't find anything through searching.
Almost looks like it's vomitting out the empty cartridges 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
Didn’t General Custer carry two of these at the Battle of Little Big Horn?
Hey have you guys ever considered doing a video on the mannlicher 1885 the father of semi autos?
I absolutely will if/when I find one of them to film.
8:06 Depends on where you sue. If you sue in Europe the losing side has to pay all the legal and lawyer fees of the winning side.
I suspect this might not be the case in the USA but it avoids a lot of frivolous lawsuits by people with money to spare.
So if it is a small bulldog is it tecnely a bullpup?
I bet that was a very uncomfortable firearm to fire.
Do I see a Headstamp publishing book on Belgian pistols being announced soon?
Neato !