Thanks, Joshua! The Q&A is on a longer (private) video of our recent zoom meetup... If you'd like to join the group just send me an email at sovereignloveorg [at] gmail [dot] com and I will add you to our list (and send you a link to last Saturday's meeting) 👍🏼 Thanks an Blessings! wayne
Great that humility is being advocated in terms of a willingness to learn, rather than as it is sometimes presented: a refusal to learn, on the grounds that we cannot be certain about the things that other people are certain that we must be uncertain about. Theology is a moral exercise from beginning to end: unless we have the right attitude, we are unlikely to understand anything as we ought. We will certainly not conclude things like "God is not the God of the dead but of the living" as spiritually self-evident apart from proof texts, as Jesus himself required.
I want to thank John for sharing his thoughts. It's always helpful to hear the path a person takes to get to universal restoration. Like so many, I'm on the fence. I've defaulted to ECT since coming to faith in Christ 50+ years ago, never thinking too deeply about it. After all, God said it. That settles it it. Right? But, as Lee Corso says, "Not so fast!" The last few years, especially now that I'm older and am encountering death at a much higher rate than before (I've also been a hospice Chaplain the last 15 years), the whole idea of what happens after death has become front and center for me. God has me on a journey. Regarding where that will end up on universal restoration, I don't know. I'll only say this: I'm not where I was a couple of years ago. I keep trying to practice "incarnational listening." I like that phrase. I'm not sure I've heard it before. Wayne, I appreciate you, your channel, and your high view of Scripture, which keeps me coming back to you.
Thanks for your kind and encouraging words, James! "incarnational listening? Yes!! God continue to richly bless you in your hospice ministry! If you had to narrow it down to what still seems to keep you from embracing UR - how would you frame it? (II know that might be challenging - but I would love to hear what you might say in response...)
Rom 8: 11 BUT IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the d3ad dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the d3ad will also give life to your MORTAL bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Problem is John 14:17 “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.. They wait for carnal Jesus,deceived,not understanding that the Holy Spirit is 2nd coming. Mat 23: 26 “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. Paul gave simple test to see if man is in correct faith: 2 Cor 13: 5 unless he/she is disqualified 2 John 1 : 7
@@MrHwaynefair Simply put, Wayne, I'm not convinced that the Scriptures teach it. Certainly, there are passages that imply it, e.g., Isa 25:6-10; Acts 3:21; 1 Cor 15:20-28; Col 1:19-20; Rev 21:1-4, etc. But there are also passages that suggest otherwise, e.g., Dan 12:2; Mt 7:21-23; 25:31-46; Mk 3:28-29; Jn 5:25-29; Heb 6:4-8; Jude 7; Rev 21:22-27; 22:14-15, etc. I haven't been able to sufficiently work this out in my mind, so as to say I affirm that all shall be saved.
@@MrHwaynefair By the way, I recently watched a YT teaching video by Dr Kevin Vanhooser called The Sovereignty of God. He presented it at an EFCA convention. In it he covers Relational Theology and Universalism. Very thought-provoking! I invite you to look it up.
Scripturally I am convinced that it is not only implied but stated: "the all things" (with the Greek definite article) means exhaustively "each and every thing" that Christ created and sustains. Also I do not see how to interpret Romans 5 otherwise - and the whole Adam Christology that flows out of it and 1 Cor.15. Theologically (even philosophically) my interpretive principle is "maximal goodness" - therefore I let these verses and many more bring me to the conviction and confession of unilateral Victory: Christ will do far more than the first Adam (and the first did not ask our permission to throw the world into sin, corruption and death). But there I go again, Sorry... You know all this - and I genuinely appreciate that you seriously consider these things - unlike so many that simply dismiss them.... So I guess our difference is in what we think is "implied" and what is explicit and plain and moves in the direction of Love and Goodness beyond what we can think or imagine... One of the things I keep pondering: HOW do we resolve these paradoxes of Scripture? I think there is a way (and you've almost certainly heard me talk about it - even as I alluded to above...) Thanks for sharing and answering, James! I appreciate and respect your take on these things ❤️
God uses fierce language to condemn and warn....but in the end, He also restores.God judged Israel with the Babylonian captivity but brought them back after their captivity. In Jer. 30:12, their wound was called "incurable" but then He promises to heal and restore their "incurable" wounds (v. 17). God declares a fierce judgment on Moab to "make an end to Moab" (Jer. 48:35 ) and to "destroy them from being a people" (Jer. 48:42) but ends with a promise for restoration (Jeremiah 48:47). Similarly, God's fierce judgment on Ammon and Edom in Jeremiah 49 are both followed by restoration. In 1st Corinthians 5, God's fierce judgment of the immoral man (v. 13) is done for his salvation (v. 5) and that man was in fact restored (2 Cor. 2:1-11). Jesus came not to judge but to save the world (John 12:47). Therefore His judgments are all done for the purpose of salvation. God's judgments warn and condemn so that we stay away from sin....but God's judgments also restore. Here are a few more verses that point to God's judgments being part of His overall purpose to restore and save people: Exodus 6:6: “Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.’” Psalm 76:8-9: “You caused judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared and was still when God arose to judgment, to save all the humble of the earth.” Psalm 119:149: “Revive me, Lord, according to Your judgments.” Isaiah 26:9: “When the earth experiences Your judgments the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.” Romans 14:10-11: “For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, ‘AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD’.” Matthew 12:20-21: “A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF, AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE [judgment] TO VICTORY. AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.” The point is that judgment leads to all worshiping God in the end.
A Christian universalist perspective on the destruction of Sodom-and indeed on all of God’s judgments-often turns on the idea that “eternal” in Scripture (Greek: aionios) does not necessarily denote unending, never-to-be-reversed punishment. Instead, it can express a divine judgment that is definitive, of great consequence, or pertaining to “the age” (rather than timelessness). A few points come into focus: 1. **The Restoration of Sodom in the Prophets** In passages like Ezekiel 16:53-55, Sodom (along with Samaria) is spoken of as being restored in some future day of blessing. This appears to conflict with references to the “eternal fire” by which Sodom was destroyed (cf. Jude 1:7). A Christian universalist will often say: if God truly intended the destruction to be absolutely final, why would the prophets speak of a future restoration at all? The tension suggests that the notion of “eternal destruction” must be interpreted in a way that allows for divine mercy and renewal. 2. **“Eternal” (Aionios) as “Age-enduring”** In Greek, the term aionios (often translated “eternal”) can simply mean “pertaining to an age” or “of the ages,” emphasizing the quality or nature of a thing, not necessarily endless duration. Thus, some universalists argue that statements about “eternal fire” or “eternal punishment” indicate a divine judgment appropriate to the age (the severity and gravity), rather than an unending state of hopelessness. 3. **Destruction and Restoration in Christ’s Own Words** When Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days” (John 2:19), He is speaking on two levels: - **Literally** (from the perspective of His listeners): the Temple in Jerusalem could be torn down. - **Spiritually and prophetically**: He refers to His own body being put to death and raised up again. The underlying principle is that what appears to be utterly destroyed can still be raised anew by God’s power. Even a judgment that seems irrevocable (the crucifixion of the Messiah, which looks final and absolute) becomes, in God’s hands, the pathway to resurrection and restoration. Universalists see this as a pattern in Scripture: God’s severe judgments, while real, may serve a redemptive purpose that culminates in healing or restoration. 4. **Consistency with the Character of God** If God’s nature is love, and He wills “all people to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4), then judgments-however severe or “eternal” they may seem-cannot be taken as a final word against His creatures. Rather, judgments are part of a refining or purifying process, which will ultimately lead to reconciliation. In short, a Christian universalist reading of the Sodom texts (and other “eternal judgment” passages) is not that God’s judgment is meaningless, but that it does not shut the door to God’s ultimate purpose of restoration. Jesus’s reference to the destroyed temple, raised up again, is a paradigm for divine power to undo destruction; “eternal” does not necessarily equal “everlasting hopelessness,” but rather underscores both the seriousness of sin AND the greatness of God’s restorative grace. Grace and Peace To You!❤️
I think he did - and yet not as fully as I do (as a Christian Universalist)... I don't know his heart - and I think the gospel he preached was incomplete at best... God will judge him in Love - purify him with fire -and, as Jesus said, "we will all be salted be fire", and Paul, all our works will be put through a fire that will burn up the wood, hay and stubble...
Luke 7: 41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Luke 7: 42“And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?” Luke 7: 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.”
"I pray for them, I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine"
Great vid. Some really cool concepts discussed:: incarnational listening, etc.
Thanks for listening!
Thank you for the upload 🙏🏼 Did the QnA section perhaps get recorded?
Thanks, Joshua!
The Q&A is on a longer (private) video of our recent zoom meetup...
If you'd like to join the group just send me an email at sovereignloveorg [at] gmail [dot] com and I will add you to our list (and send you a link to last Saturday's meeting) 👍🏼
Thanks an Blessings!
wayne
Great that humility is being advocated in terms of a willingness to learn, rather than as it is sometimes presented: a refusal to learn, on the grounds that we cannot be certain about the things that other people are certain that we must be uncertain about. Theology is a moral exercise from beginning to end: unless we have the right attitude, we are unlikely to understand anything as we ought. We will certainly not conclude things like "God is not the God of the dead but of the living" as spiritually self-evident apart from proof texts, as Jesus himself required.
I want to thank John for sharing his thoughts. It's always helpful to hear the path a person takes to get to universal restoration.
Like so many, I'm on the fence. I've defaulted to ECT since coming to faith in Christ 50+ years ago, never thinking too deeply about it. After all, God said it. That settles it it. Right?
But, as Lee Corso says, "Not so fast!"
The last few years, especially now that I'm older and am encountering death at a much higher rate than before (I've also been a hospice Chaplain the last 15 years), the whole idea of what happens after death has become front and center for me.
God has me on a journey. Regarding where that will end up on universal restoration, I don't know.
I'll only say this: I'm not where I was a couple of years ago.
I keep trying to practice "incarnational listening." I like that phrase. I'm not sure I've heard it before.
Wayne, I appreciate you, your channel, and your high view of Scripture, which keeps me coming back to you.
Thanks for your kind and encouraging words, James!
"incarnational listening? Yes!!
God continue to richly bless you in your hospice ministry!
If you had to narrow it down to what still seems to keep you from embracing UR - how would you frame it?
(II know that might be challenging - but I would love to hear what you might say in response...)
Rom 8: 11
BUT IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the d3ad dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the d3ad will also give life to your MORTAL bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Problem is John 14:17 “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him..
They wait for carnal Jesus,deceived,not understanding that the Holy Spirit is 2nd coming.
Mat 23: 26 “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Paul gave simple test to see if man is in correct faith: 2 Cor 13: 5 unless he/she is disqualified 2 John 1 : 7
@@MrHwaynefair Simply put, Wayne, I'm not convinced that the Scriptures teach it.
Certainly, there are passages that imply it, e.g., Isa 25:6-10; Acts 3:21; 1 Cor 15:20-28; Col 1:19-20; Rev 21:1-4, etc.
But there are also passages that suggest otherwise, e.g., Dan 12:2; Mt 7:21-23; 25:31-46; Mk 3:28-29; Jn 5:25-29; Heb 6:4-8; Jude 7; Rev 21:22-27; 22:14-15, etc.
I haven't been able to sufficiently work this out in my mind, so as to say I affirm that all shall be saved.
@@MrHwaynefair By the way, I recently watched a YT teaching video by Dr Kevin Vanhooser called The Sovereignty of God. He presented it at an EFCA convention. In it he covers Relational Theology and Universalism. Very thought-provoking! I invite you to look it up.
Scripturally I am convinced that it is not only implied but stated:
"the all things" (with the Greek definite article) means exhaustively "each and every thing" that Christ created and sustains.
Also I do not see how to interpret Romans 5 otherwise - and the whole Adam Christology that flows out of it and 1 Cor.15.
Theologically (even philosophically) my interpretive principle is "maximal goodness" - therefore I let these verses and many more bring me to the conviction and confession of unilateral Victory: Christ will do far more than the first Adam (and the first did not ask our permission to throw the world into sin, corruption and death).
But there I go again, Sorry... You know all this - and I genuinely appreciate that you seriously consider these things - unlike so many that simply dismiss them....
So I guess our difference is in what we think is "implied" and what is explicit and plain and moves in the direction of Love and Goodness beyond what we can think or imagine...
One of the things I keep pondering: HOW do we resolve these paradoxes of Scripture?
I think there is a way (and you've almost certainly heard me talk about it - even as I alluded to above...)
Thanks for sharing and answering, James! I appreciate and respect your take on these things ❤️
What are some examples in scripture of after Gods judgment comes restoration?
God uses fierce language to condemn and warn....but in the end, He also restores.God judged Israel with the Babylonian captivity but brought them back after their captivity. In Jer. 30:12, their wound was called "incurable" but then He promises to heal and restore their "incurable" wounds (v. 17). God declares a fierce judgment on Moab to "make an end to Moab" (Jer. 48:35 ) and to "destroy them from being a people" (Jer. 48:42) but ends with a promise for restoration (Jeremiah 48:47). Similarly, God's fierce judgment on Ammon and Edom in Jeremiah 49 are both followed by restoration. In 1st Corinthians 5, God's fierce judgment of the immoral man (v. 13) is done for his salvation (v. 5) and that man was in fact restored (2 Cor. 2:1-11). Jesus came not to judge but to save the world (John 12:47). Therefore His judgments are all done for the purpose of salvation. God's judgments warn and condemn so that we stay away from sin....but God's judgments also restore. Here are a few more verses that point to God's judgments being part of His overall purpose to restore and save people:
Exodus 6:6: “Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.’”
Psalm 76:8-9: “You caused judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared and was still when God arose to judgment, to save all the humble of the earth.”
Psalm 119:149: “Revive me, Lord, according to Your judgments.”
Isaiah 26:9: “When the earth experiences Your judgments the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”
Romans 14:10-11: “For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, ‘AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD’.”
Matthew 12:20-21: “A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF, AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE [judgment] TO VICTORY. AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.”
The point is that judgment leads to all worshiping God in the end.
A Christian universalist perspective on the destruction of Sodom-and indeed on all of God’s judgments-often turns on the idea that “eternal” in Scripture (Greek: aionios) does not necessarily denote unending, never-to-be-reversed punishment. Instead, it can express a divine judgment that is definitive, of great consequence, or pertaining to “the age” (rather than timelessness). A few points come into focus:
1. **The Restoration of Sodom in the Prophets**
In passages like Ezekiel 16:53-55, Sodom (along with Samaria) is spoken of as being restored in some future day of blessing. This appears to conflict with references to the “eternal fire” by which Sodom was destroyed (cf. Jude 1:7). A Christian universalist will often say: if God truly intended the destruction to be absolutely final, why would the prophets speak of a future restoration at all? The tension suggests that the notion of “eternal destruction” must be interpreted in a way that allows for divine mercy and renewal.
2. **“Eternal” (Aionios) as “Age-enduring”**
In Greek, the term aionios (often translated “eternal”) can simply mean “pertaining to an age” or “of the ages,” emphasizing the quality or nature of a thing, not necessarily endless duration. Thus, some universalists argue that statements about “eternal fire” or “eternal punishment” indicate a divine judgment appropriate to the age (the severity and gravity), rather than an unending state of hopelessness.
3. **Destruction and Restoration in Christ’s Own Words**
When Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days” (John 2:19), He is speaking on two levels:
- **Literally** (from the perspective of His listeners): the Temple in Jerusalem could be torn down.
- **Spiritually and prophetically**: He refers to His own body being put to death and raised up again.
The underlying principle is that what appears to be utterly destroyed can still be raised anew by God’s power. Even a judgment that seems irrevocable (the crucifixion of the Messiah, which looks final and absolute) becomes, in God’s hands, the pathway to resurrection and restoration. Universalists see this as a pattern in Scripture: God’s severe judgments, while real, may serve a redemptive purpose that culminates in healing or restoration.
4. **Consistency with the Character of God**
If God’s nature is love, and He wills “all people to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4), then judgments-however severe or “eternal” they may seem-cannot be taken as a final word against His creatures. Rather, judgments are part of a refining or purifying process, which will ultimately lead to reconciliation.
In short, a Christian universalist reading of the Sodom texts (and other “eternal judgment” passages) is not that God’s judgment is meaningless, but that it does not shut the door to God’s ultimate purpose of restoration. Jesus’s reference to the destroyed temple, raised up again, is a paradigm for divine power to undo destruction; “eternal” does not necessarily equal “everlasting hopelessness,” but rather underscores both the seriousness of sin AND the greatness of God’s restorative grace.
Grace and Peace To You!❤️
You mention Hitler vs Billy Graham. Graham did not believe that the cross saves. We must add to it.
That is unbelief is it not?
I think he did - and yet not as fully as I do (as a Christian Universalist)... I don't know his heart - and I think the gospel he preached was incomplete at best... God will judge him in Love - purify him with fire -and, as Jesus said, "we will all be salted be fire", and Paul, all our works will be put through a fire that will burn up the wood, hay and stubble...
Luke 7: 41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
Luke 7: 42“And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
Luke 7: 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.”