Love your content. Keep it up. I've been racing and working on cars for 50 years. I still don't know a lot. I am self-taught. I've invested a lot of love, sweat, and tears.
Successful flat tappet camshaft break in check list: Do the cam lobes have a slant? Do the lifter bores check out? Are the lifter faces hardened? Are the faces convex tapered? Do the lifters spin ok? Are you running a break in oil? Are the inner valve springs removed? Is there a quality oil filter? Is the oil system primed? Will the engine fire up immediately? Then there is the bleed down issue all new lifters have these days.
At our local track here they had a limited late model spec engine series. 358 cid max, vortec heads about 15 years ago. Flat top pistons and 500 lift with 025 lash on a solid flat tappet cam, 2bbl 4412 carb. I always used Johnson hy-lift lifters with a hole in the bottom. the cam was a bullet with a P-55 core. never had a failure. Knock on wood! Break in on the engine run stand was done with out the inner springs. Low rise aluminum dual plane, they made an average of 438hp. They were very reliable
Thanks Pat, I had my first flat tappet failure in 2018 when I slapped a cam into a junkyard 305 for my truck. Second installation of an identical cam and lifters was fine and got me by for 5 years. Finally replaced that low budget setup with a roller cammed 383 but I wish I would have known this trick back then.
You can also check the cam lobes for the proper taper as well. The lobe should be around .002" higher checked with mics or calipers towards the rear of the engine after it's installed. That would be .001" per side so that .002" on the lifters are meant to wear into the .001" the surface of the lobe the lifter is in contact with. If the cam taper isn't there that is another way for a failure. And if both components check perfectly the cam/lifters can still fail if they don't have the proper heat treatment. Uncle Tony did a pretty good break down on cam failures about a year ago.😎👍
GM/Delphi HL66's are all I use in my Chevys. Clean free lifter bores, good break in oil, break in valve springs, pre oil priming, proper break in. Shouldnt have any problems. Stay away from cheapie lifters
Already bought Summit 1103 cam for my 383 build going into my orig. '72 Vette block so buying Rhoads lifters to also get streetability in '91 Camaro conv. Thanks for the clear demo, another top video!
Quality lifters and good break in procedures are half the battle IMO. The other half is proper preparation of the lifter bores. Every old GM block that has been through thousands of heat cycles and probably a few hot tanks, should have the lifter bores honed to ensure lifter rotation. All that heat can cause the bores to become egg shaped and then your lifters will stick and POW!
Thanks for the video! Thanks for sharing your engine experience with everyone. Love the tips and tricks on your channel! Saved me a lot of time with the part numbers you listed for vortec head springs, seals , etc. Thanks for great content!
Thank you Pat for you instructional video! I've also number of flat tapped cams waiting to be used. Glad to put install them with confidence with your checking procedures
Thank you for making this video!!! There are so many videos with people's opinions on why not to use flat tapped cams. I'm about to build a motor and I was really nervous to go flat tapped
Your efforts and the videos are MUCH appreciated! You are a great mechanic..and teacher..Love the Vortec stuff❤.. I once had a 350 with the 305 Vortecs...Comp Extreme 268 1 5/8 headers...4speed ..3:42..was a very good daily driver combination..lots of low rpm torque...
Yes I love your videos you can hardly get a good set of heads for the money I could build a killer small block for I could build a 327 to 400 cubic inch small block that had all good parts in it for 2k I know alot of people are using risky flat tappet cam with no problems and I know you had a few builds with the summit flat tappers I wonder who's grinding there cams Also let us know the combo on the 406. Thanks for the video
Yes,good explanation,,that is the main problem with lifters these days.Powell engineering found and showed the same problem,,Hardness wasn't the issue as many think it is.Another thing to check is cam lobe to lifter bore offset and cam endfloat.Ive had good luck with 3 FT cams in the past using the same block.My last build in 2012 was with a crane cc272 solid,,.520"lift using LS6 90# blue beehives for my daily driver 355 Aussie Holden.Ive only checked lash 2 times in 50k miles and was only a few thou extra lash,I set lash at .020" instead of .025",so it gives me more time between checking ,,I'm lazy lol
Thank you for this video, I'm putting together an 350 with a lunati cam and lifters (flat tappet). I wiped out a flat tappet on my big block, and had to rebuild with retro fit roller. I will use this method to check the lunati lifters
@cuttersperformance I learned the hard way. Went back with Howards retro roller lifters and a Clay Smith cam, could not be more pleased, this g is a beast
I’m working on changing the heads on my 400 to Vortec, adding 1103 cam , second guessed the lifters so ordered those you showed. Hope to get it together in next few months.
Taking it a step further you could measure all the cam lobe tappers & match them up with the lifters .... as an additional step you could also put bluing on the face of all the lifters and see how they pattern with each lobe , bluing could actually be a good predictor of which lifter is most likely to fail and if you do have a failure you can see if it correlates ?
I was gonna go flat tappet on my latest build but i chickened out. Went retrofit but i went solid roller lifter on a hydraulic roller cam to save a little cash. I do have a .060 over 350 in my truck with a flat tappet summit # SUM-1786 with Crower 66000RX3 camsaver heavy duty race lifters. Been running 2 years without a problem.
Ive thought of doing the hydraulic / solid combo on my big block , being a hyd profile i figured i could run near zero lash (i've done it on my shovelhead for years) i had calculated i could run 0.004" of lash and that would be near zero at full op temp . how have you got your combo set up ?
This is a great video. Have been hesitant on installing my Howard’s flat tapet. Now I can check the lifters. Idea for video in future, what tools are essential check an engine.
I mostly do vintage engines, so roller lifters are rarely an option unless it's a Packard. Some Packard engines from the '20s through the '30s came with roller cams. Inline sixs and V12s.
I installed a Lunati barebones can and lifter set into my third gen Firebird 2 years ago. I didn’t have this knowledge at that time, so I didn’t measure them in this way. I did however check to make sure there was a good radius on each lifter and I read the instructions (odd, right?). I spent almost as much money on Lunati recommended Driven BR30 break in oil and Permatex assembly lube Canadian eh?) as I did the cam kit. I also broke the (mild) cam in on stock springs. I’ve got 2 years on the install and it’s just as strong as day one. I am considering going to 1.6 rockers…
As much as I’d like to do a 4 bolt hydraulic Vortec block right now for the ‘72 I’m probably going to just go cheap for the first rebuild and do flat tappet
I wish I’d have known about this a few years ago! I bought a fairly common performance cam, searched for some better lifters that were made in the U.S.A, used reputable high zinc bark in oil, followed the prescribed break in procedures, and still had a cam failure. I’ll never know if it was the cam, the lifters or both, but I’d never seen this simple way to check lifters. I’ll probably never build another flat tappet cam engine again, but I’d love to see how you check the cam
I just bought a Comp Cams kit with lifters and springs and 12 of the 16 were bad ! I am a tool and Diemaker I can't believe the junk we are getting . I heard the johnson Hy-lift are the best .
I vote flat tappet... and proper spring pressure with reducing it during breaking. I'm running speedway cam and lifters. (Made by comp) with good success
I don't like rollers for street actually. For durations under 278 flat tappet cams actually makes more power,and also the roller and especially retro roller lifter setups weigh more than the flat tappets, and less valve train weight is more power.
I still can't figure out why modern manufacturing can't manage to correctly reproduce "primitive" parts. We've gone from having 1 out of a 100 parts being bad to almost 1 out of 2 or 3 parts being bad. I'm still emotionally scarred from all the late 70's, early 80's Chevy 305 and 350 "soft" cams that I had to rebuild engines because of, so I know cam and lifter failure ain't no joke.
It’s getting even harder to find a good machinist nowadays, 😢 Old school guys like myself, sent a block to be resurfaced they gave it back to me only half done, and bore was all fucked up , can’t put a .030 piston in a bore that was over .037 thousands over lol Must have been done on a Monday or a Friday lol
Thank you for shedding light on this topic never would have thought about it. I have a 400 I’m building but stuck on bore size your thoughts on 40 over
Thank You for the video I have question on a 1995 TBI that needs a little help for power and economy , , I am told that TBI 5.7 is waste of time , I thought a swap to vortec heads and a mild cam to help , I been told that causes trouble with computer Your thoughts , , Thank You for taking the time , You , Golds Garage , a few others here on the You Tube give folks awesome info , Cheers !!!
Head swap will gain you alot of power over swirl ports, especially with a mild cam. You'll need to talk to a tuner about tuning options or swap to an aftermarket fuel injection
@@cuttersperformance Thank you for your reply , I am in Saskatchewan and not sure where to source a tuner with abilities to map fuel / timing curves etc, I would entertain the idea of using a vortec head and maybe combine with a throttle body adapter , or , maybe try a modified vortec lower with a multiple throttle body cover , that would need custom fab air cleaner base, Air horns seem to favor drop base style breathjer housings with a spacer between air horn and filter base , maybe a 1-1/2" - 2" spacer there . perhaps a 2 throttle body's on a edelbrock esp ?? may be interesting trying a dual TBI , , maybe find a test somewhere , .Thank You for the Videos .. Cheers from Regina
I've broken in 5 flat tappet cans in the past, never removed a valve spring or used lower ratio rockers for break in, never had an issue, all comp cams/lifters, always used GM EOS. I've got a 327 build I'm invested in, looking to go flat tappet mechanical. What are your thoughts about grooving the lifter bores? Compcams has a tool, but I seen a video that some dude just used needle files.. I'm aware of edm lifters, that might be a better option.
Hello Pat; Im building the 400hp budget motor as I already had the short block ready to go. Ordered all the parts you listed to upgrade the vortec heads I have ordered the Melling cam and Melling lifters from Summit they arrived in horrible condition. The cam and lifters were shipped in a box big enough to put 50 cams and lifter sets with no packing most of the lifters came out of their little boxes and rattled around for the whole trip. Needles to say 9 were marred dinged and messed up. Kudos to Summit as they replaced them quickly and free of charge. I bought the middle of the road ones not cheap and made in Mexico. I will be doing the checks you show in tis video. What is your take on the Mexican Melling lifters?
Thanks Pat! Great video! Yes any flat tappet info you could pass on would be awesome 👌 Have you had any experience with the new DLC coated lifters? And with a 406 I assume you will be running the vortec heads without steam holes? Your spin on that would be a great video. Thanks for the content. I just scored a gm 400 block so I'm excited to see what cam and numbers!
@cuttersperformance it would be nice to see a custom grind DV lsa cam. If my math is right 104.5 lsa? Looking forward to the next video. You are our Yellowstone lol!
Hey Pat, have you ever tried using the shorter factory v6 roller lifters in the older blocks? A guy on the Bay of e used to sell instructions on how to retrofit a spider hold down and dog bones to work with the v6 lifters in the older blocks. Not sure if he still does though, it's been about 5 or 10 years since I seen that. I'm sure you could figure it out yourself to make that work though? Also I have been thinking about how to install a factory roller cam in a non roller block. If you used four 10-32 flat head screws drilled and tapped in that ring where the front of the cam is in the block to bolt on the cam retainer plate. If you have access to a Bridgeport or any other vertical mill you can setup an engine block on to drill and tap for the cam retainer plate and to be able to drill and counter sink for the flat head screws you should be able to? Just make sure to chamfer the threaded holes deep enough so the flat head bolt taper can go into the block just a bit because those cam plates are probably not thick enough for the entire taper of the flat head bolt? You can do it and you'll probably get tens of thousands of views or maybe hundreds of thousands of views if you do it on video. If people can't copy what you did, they should be able to send your video to their local machine shop so they can copy you.😎👍
I have seen it online but never attempted it. Might be worth a try one day. Or just convince a company to come out with a decently price set of retro fit lifters haha 😄
What is your gauge to test officially called, where to find it (my guess Mitutoyo sells it) and how much did you pay for it, if I may. Would it not be more precise if the gauge would be on a thicker plexiglass sheet and the whole thing bolted to a work bench? Questions and ideas passing by at great speed in my head like that. I would use flat tappets for different projects, but the ones you didn't talk about: solid flat tappets. Again it depends in what the 400 goes in: a truck that needs reliability or a car that needs performance and don't mind adjusting the valves every now and then. Great video :)!
It is just a dial gauge mounted to a homemade stand. You can use a regular dial gauge stand, and yes thicker plexiglass or glass would be even better. Same checking applies to solid tappets
The SBC oiling system has if im not mistaken , three 90* turns , how many engine builders bother to radius those turns ? to me 60 psi oil pressure is the minimum you should run considering the path it has to take. Oil cooler is not a bad idea ether , when you think about it all industrial heavy duty engines use oil coolers , not the small block , crazy eh ?
Very true but actually the interesting thing is they used oil coolers in some of the later L98s as well as the l31 vortecs. Maybe they were onto something 🤔
@@cuttersperformancewhat about factory OEM roller lifters in the L31? I have a set with the engine I’m building (you made it possible with the secret squirrel locks!) and they looked great- clean, and I’m going to re-use with the summitt 8802 (LT4 hot cam copy)….. should I spring for new roller lifters? Or are the OEM’s ok where I’m at, and at @ 100k miles? You ARE the GOAT on Vortec’s!!!
Wondering if you have any feedback on Trend Perf? Got a set of high $$ big name solids and they're junk, looks like Trend does cup car stuff, choice on solids seems even slimmer
Off topic but how can I identify / profile a mystery hyd roller cam in my LS1 vette? Can I get decent measurements simply with a dial indicator on the spring retainer?
If you can't find any identification you can call local machine shops or speed shops and ask if they have a "Cam Doctor". It's a machine the profiles and checks the lobes
@Cutter's - What's your take on solid roller cam for big hp on pump gas? Obviously this would be mostly for track, where adjusting valve lash comes with the territory.
have you had good luck with summit's ft cams? do you have a cam doctor to check them or do you just use calipers and check the front and back (forward and rear) side of the lobe for the .oo2 taper?
Proper oil is important. I have not used those lifters with a hole. I was told by a tech guy I know that they are a bit of a gimmick, but I have no proof either way
@@cuttersperformance oh, interesting. I don't remember what the springs in these heads looked like, but coming back from a sketchy machine shop, they have inner damper springs in them. Ok. I'll just get beehives to be safe. Thanks.
Have you any experience with the kits that allow you to drill your block and use the spider and oe style dog bones & lifters? Any thoughts on using those?
Take them junk heads off put some ebay Aluminum cylinder heads. It will. Probably go half a second faster in the quarter mile. I had one with a set of vortex heads that I did extensive port work on lut 2.02 1.6 stainless valves in. Went 12.23.. took them off bolted Aluminum. Heads on and went 11.74.. half Second. With just heads..
@cuttersperformance 383 flat tops and forged balanced rotating assembly. right now the engine has a set of world products sportsman 2 but I am thinking about ordering a set of 195 AFR enforcers. Or maybe those nkb heads?
@@davelewis2174 They sell lesser expensive lifters that they know will fail so people buy their more expensive ones that might not. I don't blame Pat for not buying from Comp.🤷
Yes, please do more on flat tappets. Some of us just can't afford retrofit rollers.
Love your content. Keep it up. I've been racing and working on cars for 50 years. I still don't know a lot. I am self-taught. I've invested a lot of love, sweat, and tears.
Thank you!
Those Vortec heads on a big inch small block make some eye peeling torque.
Successful flat tappet camshaft break in check list:
Do the cam lobes have a slant?
Do the lifter bores check out?
Are the lifter faces hardened?
Are the faces convex tapered?
Do the lifters spin ok?
Are you running a break in oil?
Are the inner valve springs removed?
Is there a quality oil filter?
Is the oil system primed?
Will the engine fire up immediately?
Then there is the bleed down issue all new lifters have these days.
Use Isky cam gear.
At our local track here they had a limited late model spec engine series. 358 cid max, vortec heads about 15 years ago. Flat top pistons and 500 lift with 025 lash on a solid flat tappet cam, 2bbl 4412 carb. I always used Johnson hy-lift lifters with a hole in the bottom. the cam was a bullet with a P-55 core. never had a failure. Knock on wood! Break in on the engine run stand was done with out the inner springs. Low rise aluminum dual plane, they made an average of 438hp. They were very reliable
Might you be related to Paul?
Your visual explanation was the H-bomb of understanding. Top marks!
Can't wait to see the results of Vortec 406, looking forward to the results, Thanks
Damn, you might have saved my build. I'm about to install mine this week, now I'll be checking every one!
Thanks!
Thanks Pat, I had my first flat tappet failure in 2018 when I slapped a cam into a junkyard 305 for my truck. Second installation of an identical cam and lifters was fine and got me by for 5 years. Finally replaced that low budget setup with a roller cammed 383 but I wish I would have known this trick back then.
You can also check the cam lobes for the proper taper as well. The lobe should be around .002" higher checked with mics or calipers towards the rear of the engine after it's installed. That would be .001" per side so that .002" on the lifters are meant to wear into the .001" the surface of the lobe the lifter is in contact with.
If the cam taper isn't there that is another way for a failure. And if both components check perfectly the cam/lifters can still fail if they don't have the proper heat treatment. Uncle Tony did a pretty good break down on cam failures about a year ago.😎👍
GM/Delphi HL66's are all I use in my Chevys. Clean free lifter bores, good break in oil, break in valve springs, pre oil priming, proper break in. Shouldnt have any problems. Stay away from cheapie lifters
Agreed in a flat tappet!!
I have a NOS set, I’ll never let go- just waiting on that right build! Lol
@@SuperDave227D Nice! Hope it's a fun one. Cheers
I use the gm performance parts lifters with the tool steel foot no issues
Same - made in USA with the hardened foot. Funny how everyone over looks them - but have given me trouble free performance
Whats the part number on them good Delphi lifters u got there?
I'm big fan of SBC 406, love all different builds on 400s.
Already bought Summit 1103 cam for my 383 build going into my orig. '72 Vette block so buying Rhoads lifters to also get streetability in '91 Camaro conv. Thanks for the clear demo, another top video!
I really enjoy your videos, very informative without the condescending tone. Thanks for sharing your experience
Appreciate that, thank you
Much better than my vintage iron
Thanks for the "how to check your lifters"! Keep up the content we appreciate it
Quality lifters and good break in procedures are half the battle IMO. The other half is proper preparation of the lifter bores. Every old GM block that has been through thousands of heat cycles and probably a few hot tanks, should have the lifter bores honed to ensure lifter rotation. All that heat can cause the bores to become egg shaped and then your lifters will stick and POW!
Exactly 💯
We also put two lifters bottom to bottom and watch the crowns. Great videos.
Thanks. I am looking at a 69 350 rebuild for my 85 vette. and I don't want any surprises.
Thanks for the video! Thanks for sharing your engine experience with everyone. Love the tips and tricks on your channel! Saved me a lot of time with the part numbers you listed for vortec head springs, seals , etc. Thanks for great content!
Appreciate the positive feedback. Thank you
Yes please flat tappet. We've had good luck. But always willing to learn more....
They used to reface used lifters on rebuilds 40 years ago, I remember a machine for this in school shop class
Some machine shops still do it...
Thank you Pat for you instructional video! I've also number of flat tapped cams waiting to be used. Glad to put install them with confidence with your checking procedures
Thankyou for being so thorough on your explanations. I have learned a lot from your videos
Thanks Pat, be Awesome to show more old school builds and flat tappet builds....
show us the angle on the cam and a way to check......cheers Brett
Thank you for making this video!!! There are so many videos with people's opinions on why not to use flat tapped cams. I'm about to build a motor and I was really nervous to go flat tapped
Great video, good to see how to actually check the lifters prior to installation! Thank you!
Great tips, thanks - bucket lifters on OHC engines are crowned too I believe for rotation - can't beat OE parts for quality control
Your efforts and the videos are MUCH appreciated! You are a great mechanic..and teacher..Love the Vortec stuff❤..
I once had a 350 with the 305 Vortecs...Comp Extreme 268
1 5/8 headers...4speed ..3:42..was a very good daily driver combination..lots of low rpm torque...
Yes I love your videos you can hardly get a good set of heads for the money I could build a killer small block for I could build a 327 to 400 cubic inch small block that had all good parts in it for 2k I know alot of people are using risky flat tappet cam with no problems and I know you had a few builds with the summit flat tappers I wonder who's grinding there cams
Also let us know the combo on the 406. Thanks for the video
Yes,good explanation,,that is the main problem with lifters these days.Powell engineering found and showed the same problem,,Hardness wasn't the issue as many think it is.Another thing to check is cam lobe to lifter bore offset and cam endfloat.Ive had good luck with 3 FT cams in the past using the same block.My last build in 2012 was with a crane cc272 solid,,.520"lift using LS6 90# blue beehives for my daily driver 355 Aussie Holden.Ive only checked lash 2 times in 50k miles and was only a few thou extra lash,I set lash at .020" instead of .025",so it gives me more time between checking ,,I'm lazy lol
Thank you for this video, I'm putting together an 350 with a lunati cam and lifters (flat tappet). I wiped out a flat tappet on my big block, and had to rebuild with retro fit roller. I will use this method to check the lunati lifters
@popsshop1270 sorry to hear about the cam trouble, what brand flat tappet lifters did you use on the big block?
@@cuttersperformance comp
Yep comp is no longer good lifters. Lunati sadly is hit or miss now so definitely check them.
@popsshop1270 I stopped using comp about 4 years ago for lifters because of inconsistentes
@cuttersperformance I learned the hard way. Went back with Howards retro roller lifters and a Clay Smith cam, could not be more pleased, this g is a beast
Great video.I wasnt aware of the proper measurements and better quality of lifters to run. Thanks
406 , camel 291s with cc 268 extreme energy cam ..... flat tappet
Have heads to go back on .
Very interesting on lifters......
I’m working on changing the heads on my 400 to Vortec, adding 1103 cam , second guessed the lifters so ordered those you showed. Hope to get it together in next few months.
Another video coming up soon, hopefully get to the dyno late Sept early Oct
Taking it a step further you could measure all the cam lobe tappers & match them up with the lifters .... as an additional step you could also put bluing on the face of all the lifters and see how they pattern with each lobe , bluing could actually be a good predictor of which lifter is most likely to fail and if you do have a failure you can see if it correlates ?
Great video! Thanks for all the info!
I was gonna go flat tappet on my latest build but i chickened out. Went retrofit but i went solid roller lifter on a hydraulic roller cam to save a little cash. I do have a .060 over 350 in my truck with a flat tappet summit # SUM-1786 with Crower 66000RX3 camsaver heavy duty race lifters. Been running 2 years without a problem.
Ive thought of doing the hydraulic / solid combo on my big block , being a hyd profile i figured i could run near zero lash (i've done it on my shovelhead for years) i had calculated i could run 0.004" of lash and that would be near zero at full op temp . how have you got your combo set up ?
This is a great video. Have been hesitant on installing my Howard’s flat tapet. Now I can check the lifters. Idea for video in future, what tools are essential check an engine.
I mostly do vintage engines, so roller lifters are rarely an option unless it's a Packard. Some Packard engines from the '20s through the '30s came with roller cams. Inline sixs and V12s.
I installed a Lunati barebones can and lifter set into my third gen Firebird 2 years ago. I didn’t have this knowledge at that time, so I didn’t measure them in this way. I did however check to make sure there was a good radius on each lifter and I read the instructions (odd, right?). I spent almost as much money on Lunati recommended Driven BR30 break in oil and Permatex assembly lube Canadian eh?) as I did the cam kit. I also broke the (mild) cam in on stock springs. I’ve got 2 years on the install and it’s just as strong as day one. I am considering going to 1.6 rockers…
If you got the spring and clearance, the higher ratio rocker will always help
Just go 1.6 on Intake valve
Be nice to see how to check a camshaft
I can do a video on that
@@cuttersperformance❤
Over heard the Total Seal guy (Lake Speed Jr I think ) mention the hardness addressed for the future. 🤞
As much as I’d like to do a 4 bolt hydraulic Vortec block right now for the ‘72 I’m probably going to just go cheap for the first rebuild and do flat tappet
Excellent video! Thank you
Learned something today!
I'm looking forward to see this engine run 👍👍
Thank you for this video. Great content!
I want more on flat tappet as well. I have some of both roller and flat.
I'm actually building this combo just for a fun street motor
I wish I’d have known about this a few years ago! I bought a fairly common performance cam, searched for some better lifters that were made in the U.S.A, used reputable high zinc bark in oil, followed the prescribed break in procedures, and still had a cam failure. I’ll never know if it was the cam, the lifters or both, but I’d never seen this simple way to check lifters. I’ll probably never build another flat tappet cam engine again, but I’d love to see how you check the cam
There are a bunch of other factors and things to check but I find the lifters are definitely the problem in most cases
I ve had good luck so far with Howards lifters with a direct oiling groove in the side on a lunati voodoo cam (2500miles.).
Howards are great lifters 👍
My favorite lifters are the hydraulic ones with the little roller things on the end of em ,im still waiting on them to wipe my cam lobes out.😂
I just bought a Comp Cams kit with lifters and springs and 12 of the 16 were bad ! I am a tool and Diemaker I can't believe the junk we are getting . I heard the johnson Hy-lift are the best .
Pretty scary, right?
Will being checking from now on. T/Y
Good stuff TY!!
I thought flats out but rollers in. Sounds like you got it made.
If it's in the budget, go roller but I will still rock a flat tappet on some builds
Buy Isky cam gear and sleep-tight at night.... Wrenching since 1958.
I vote flat tappet... and proper spring pressure with reducing it during breaking. I'm running speedway cam and lifters. (Made by comp) with good success
Do a video on initial start and break-in, including what oil you run
Please more info on flat tappet /Last Engine I built I used Rhoads very good
I don't like rollers for street actually. For durations under 278 flat tappet cams actually makes more power,and also the roller and especially retro roller lifter setups weigh more than the flat tappets, and less valve train weight is more power.
I still can't figure out why modern manufacturing can't manage to correctly reproduce "primitive" parts. We've gone from having 1 out of a 100 parts being bad to almost 1 out of 2 or 3 parts being bad. I'm still emotionally scarred from all the late 70's, early 80's Chevy 305 and 350 "soft" cams that I had to rebuild engines because of, so I know cam and lifter failure ain't no joke.
My 454 gen V has a flat tappet, but i would like to find a good grind with more duration to help with the old iron heads
It’s getting even harder to find a good machinist nowadays, 😢
Old school guys like myself, sent a block to be resurfaced they gave it back to me only half done, and bore was all fucked up , can’t put a .030 piston in a bore that was over .037 thousands over lol
Must have been done on a Monday or a Friday lol
Yeah it's definitely becoming a problem
Thank you for shedding light on this topic never would have thought about it. I have a 400 I’m building but stuck on bore size your thoughts on 40 over
If the block sonic test good then no problem. 400s can be quite good or quite bad when it comes to cylinder wall thickness
Makes me want to go back through engine already built…
@ralphparker9263 did you use cheap lifters?
@@cuttersperformance competition can,
I used the cam and lifters, use beehive valve springs I have Vortech heads on that engine..
@ralphparker9263 ive had great luck with beehives for break-in so that part is good. But I will not use a set of regular comp cams flat tappet lifters
I use flat tappet all the time break it and your fine. I'm building a tpi turbo 406 now
Thank You for the video
I have question on a 1995 TBI that needs a little
help for power and economy , , I am told that
TBI 5.7 is waste of time , I thought a swap to vortec heads
and a mild cam to help , I been told that causes trouble with computer
Your thoughts , ,
Thank You for taking the time ,
You , Golds Garage , a few others here on the You Tube give folks
awesome info , Cheers !!!
Head swap will gain you alot of power over swirl ports, especially with a mild cam. You'll need to talk to a tuner about tuning options or swap to an aftermarket fuel injection
@@cuttersperformance Thank you for your reply , I am in Saskatchewan and not sure where to source a tuner with abilities to map fuel / timing curves etc, I would entertain the idea of using a vortec head and maybe combine with a throttle body adapter , or , maybe try a modified vortec lower with a multiple throttle body cover ,
that would need custom fab air cleaner base, Air horns seem to favor drop base style breathjer housings with a spacer between air horn and filter base , maybe a 1-1/2" - 2" spacer there . perhaps a 2 throttle body's on a edelbrock esp ?? may be interesting trying a dual TBI , , maybe find a test somewhere , .Thank You for the Videos .. Cheers from Regina
@@nerradnosnhoj5122that would be awesome to use a duel 4 barrel intake with 2 throttle body adapters and 2 factory throttle bodies...
I've broken in 5 flat tappet cans in the past, never removed a valve spring or used lower ratio rockers for break in, never had an issue, all comp cams/lifters, always used GM EOS. I've got a 327 build I'm invested in, looking to go flat tappet mechanical. What are your thoughts about grooving the lifter bores? Compcams has a tool, but I seen a video that some dude just used needle files.. I'm aware of edm lifters, that might be a better option.
Any and all information you can share about using flat tappet lifters would be helpful.
Ok maybe I will do some more videos about this
Hello Pat; Im building the 400hp budget motor as I already had the short block ready to go. Ordered all the parts you listed to upgrade the vortec heads I have ordered the Melling cam and Melling lifters from Summit they arrived in horrible condition. The cam and lifters were shipped in a box big enough to put 50 cams and lifter sets with no packing most of the lifters came out of their little boxes and rattled around for the whole trip. Needles to say 9 were marred dinged and messed up. Kudos to Summit as they replaced them quickly and free of charge.
I bought the middle of the road ones not cheap and made in Mexico. I will be doing the checks you show in tis video. What is your take on the Mexican Melling lifters?
Well I would carefully check them, but if you notice any sort of weirdness or inconsistency, then I would just swap the for some Delcos
Always been unsure of hydraulic flats
Yes I would please
Unless I was running a class that requires a flat tappet cam, I would get a second job to afford a roller cam.
Thanks Pat! Great video! Yes any flat tappet info you could pass on would be awesome 👌 Have you had any experience with the new DLC coated lifters? And with a 406 I assume you will be running the vortec heads without steam holes? Your spin on that would be a great video. Thanks for the content. I just scored a gm 400 block so I'm excited to see what cam and numbers!
I haven't tried the DLC lifters but it sounds like they are working out for some. I have drilled the vortecs for steam holes
@cuttersperformance it would be nice to see a custom grind DV lsa cam. If my math is right 104.5 lsa? Looking forward to the next video. You are our Yellowstone lol!
Good information, I personally would rather spend cash up front for a reliable engine
If you got the cash, there's no downside to roller
Excellent video! Can you get them in solid flat tappet for BBC?
Go Howard's if delcos are not available
Hey Pat, have you ever tried using the shorter factory v6 roller lifters in the older blocks? A guy on the Bay of e used to sell instructions on how to retrofit a spider hold down and dog bones to work with the v6 lifters in the older blocks. Not sure if he still does though, it's been about 5 or 10 years since I seen that. I'm sure you could figure it out yourself to make that work though?
Also I have been thinking about how to install a factory roller cam in a non roller block. If you used four 10-32 flat head screws drilled and tapped in that ring where the front of the cam is in the block to bolt on the cam retainer plate. If you have access to a Bridgeport or any other vertical mill you can setup an engine block on to drill and tap for the cam retainer plate and to be able to drill and counter sink for the flat head screws you should be able to? Just make sure to chamfer the threaded holes deep enough so the flat head bolt taper can go into the block just a bit because those cam plates are probably not thick enough for the entire taper of the flat head bolt?
You can do it and you'll probably get tens of thousands of views or maybe hundreds of thousands of views if you do it on video. If people can't copy what you did, they should be able to send your video to their local machine shop so they can copy you.😎👍
I have seen it online but never attempted it. Might be worth a try one day. Or just convince a company to come out with a decently price set of retro fit lifters haha 😄
@@cuttersperformance
Yeah, don't hold your breath waiting for
that!🤣😂😁😎👍
@@itseithergonnaworkoritaint7852 😄
Would like to see the cam specs for your torque monster 406 and compression ratio, thanks
More videos coming
What is your gauge to test officially called, where to find it (my guess Mitutoyo sells it) and how much did you pay for it, if I may. Would it not be more precise if the gauge would be on a thicker plexiglass sheet and the whole thing bolted to a work bench? Questions and ideas passing by at great speed in my head like that. I would use flat tappets for different projects, but the ones you didn't talk about: solid flat tappets. Again it depends in what the 400 goes in: a truck that needs reliability or a car that needs performance and don't mind adjusting the valves every now and then. Great video :)!
It is just a dial gauge mounted to a homemade stand. You can use a regular dial gauge stand, and yes thicker plexiglass or glass would be even better.
Same checking applies to solid tappets
@cuttersperformance Thanks.
@@dyoutubechannel8218I would not use plexiglass...
The SBC oiling system has if im not mistaken , three 90* turns , how many engine builders bother to radius those turns ? to me 60 psi oil pressure is the minimum you should run considering the path it has to take. Oil cooler is not a bad idea ether , when you think about it all industrial heavy duty engines use oil coolers , not the small block , crazy eh ?
Very true but actually the interesting thing is they used oil coolers in some of the later L98s as well as the l31 vortecs. Maybe they were onto something 🤔
Chevrolet used oil coolers back in the early 1970's!!!
What’s a good brand for roller lifters? Should I be worried about cheap roller lifters?
Don't buy cheap roller lifters either. Buy made in the USA lifters. I like Howard's lifters or any made by Johnson or Morel
@@cuttersperformancewhat about factory OEM roller lifters in the L31? I have a set with the engine I’m building (you made it possible with the secret squirrel locks!) and they looked great- clean, and I’m going to re-use with the summitt 8802 (LT4 hot cam copy)….. should I spring for new roller lifters? Or are the OEM’s ok where I’m at, and at @ 100k miles?
You ARE the GOAT on Vortec’s!!!
@@SuperDave227Dyou can reuse roller lifters but definitely check them out well.
I would like to see you do what you did with the 355 sbc
Which one?
The 480 hp Dingle ball same mods to this just bigger ci to see horsepower and torque differences
Are you going to drill steam holes and the water bypass hole on this 400 with vortec heads
@@curtisdanielsforservice4131 yeah ive drilled them
Thanks for the info. What lifters would you recommend for a flat tappet 302 Ford?
I like the Howard's Max effort
Thank you!
Wondering if you have any feedback on Trend Perf? Got a set of high $$ big name solids and they're junk, looks like Trend does cup car stuff, choice on solids seems even slimmer
Normally their stuff is good but I've mostly just used their pushrods
Off topic but how can I identify / profile a mystery hyd roller cam in my LS1 vette? Can I get decent measurements simply with a dial indicator on the spring retainer?
If you can't find any identification you can call local machine shops or speed shops and ask if they have a "Cam Doctor". It's a machine the profiles and checks the lobes
@Cutter's - What's your take on solid roller cam for big hp on pump gas? Obviously this would be mostly for track, where adjusting valve lash comes with the territory.
No problem, solids are great. If you use good parts you should have minimal adjustments needed too
What distributor would you recommend?
I use a MAS HEI distributor in most of my dyno videos
have you had good luck with summit's ft cams? do you have a cam doctor to check them or do you just use calipers and check the front and back (forward and rear) side of the lobe for the .oo2 taper?
i think you want to use oil with the zddp in it. have you tried the howard's with the hole in the bottom?
Proper oil is important. I have not used those lifters with a hole. I was told by a tech guy I know that they are a bit of a gimmick, but I have no proof either way
But when doing the test are the bottoms of the lifters machine or is it just where the pushrod goes inside?
Did you drill steam holes in the vortec heads?
Yes I did
Hey Pat. How do you feel about using the stock vortec springs with the dampers pulled out instead of beehive? Summit 1065 cam. .458 lift. Thanks.
The stock vortec springs don't have dampers but yes they can be used for mild flat tappet cams
@@cuttersperformance oh, interesting. I don't remember what the springs in these heads looked like, but coming back from a sketchy machine shop, they have inner damper springs in them. Ok. I'll just get beehives to be safe. Thanks.
Beehives are your best bet. They don't have a ton of extra spring spring but can handle high rpm without float
Have you any experience with the kits that allow you to drill your block and use the spider and oe style dog bones & lifters? Any thoughts on using those?
Ive seen them but never used one before
How do the howards lifters compare to the gm's? And do you have a preference of cam manufacturers for flat tappets specifically?
Howards are great. I like their Max Effort lifters
Take them junk heads off put some ebay Aluminum cylinder heads. It will.
Probably go half a second faster in the quarter mile. I had one with a set of vortex heads that I did extensive port work on lut 2.02 1.6 stainless valves in. Went 12.23.. took them off bolted Aluminum.
Heads on and went 11.74.. half Second. With just heads..
I agree they are small for a 406, but guys have been asking to see dyno results with vortecs
@@cuttersperformance a hp Comparison test would be cool..
It's pretty easy to ruin Vortec heads trying to port them and put oversized valves in them!!!
So I am putting in a Comp Cam flat tappet would you recommend these lifters or the Howard's 91112
If it's operating over 6k rpm, go with Howard's. All else go with GM lifters
@cuttersperformance xe284h .507/.510 duration: 284° 296°
range:2300-6500
@@KevinRoadrageGarage what size engine and heads?
@cuttersperformance 383 flat tops and forged balanced rotating assembly. right now the engine has a set of world products sportsman 2 but I am thinking about ordering a set of 195 AFR enforcers. Or maybe those nkb heads?
These manufacturers need to be called out they are costing people thousands of dollars
💯
@@cuttersperformance Yes. So why won't you name the manufacturer with the junk?
@frankjones4094maybe watch the video again and listen...
What's the cam specs on your 406 thanks
Videos coming up
Any experience with Comps DLC coated lifters?
@DarthBobo68 I won't buy comp cam lifters anymore, so I don't have any experience with them
i have the Comp DLC lifters in 4 sbc's and 1 bbc with summit cams no failers to date
@@davelewis2174
They sell lesser expensive lifters that they know will fail so people buy their more expensive ones that might not. I don't blame Pat for not buying from Comp.🤷