Watch Me Break Down David Archuleta's Emotional Track 'hell together"
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- #DavidArchuleta #ExMormon #HellTogether
Check out my first listen to David Archuleta's "Hell Together" where he shares why he left the Mormon Church.
What Mormons Really Believe:
► • Cartoon Explaining Mor...
BOOKS:
Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate: by Justin Lee
►www.amazon.com/dp/1455514306?...
God And The Gay Christian: by Matthew Vines
►www.amazon.com/dp/160142518X?...
Forging A Sacred Weapon: How The Bible Became Anti-Gay: by Kathy Baldock (PRE-ORDER)
► canyonwalkerconnections.com/b...
Affirming:A Memoir of Faith, Sexuality, and Staying in the Church: by Sally Gary
►www.amazon.com/dp/0802879179?...
Scripture, Ethics, and the Possibility of Same-Sex Relationships: by Karen Keen
►www.amazon.com/dp/0802876544?...
DOCUMENTARIES / MOVIES:
1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture (2023)
►www.1946themovie.com/
Prayers For Bobby (2009)
►www.amazon.com/dp/B00I3DJ228?...
For The Bible Tells Me So
►www.amazon.com/dp/B000YHQNCI?...
GET INVOLVED! (WEBSITES / CONFERENCES):
THE REFORMATION PROJECT
►reformationproject.org/
CENTERPEACE
►www.centerpeace.net/
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:37 "What Do Mormons Believe Compared To Christians?"
03:32 "The Bible Is Not Anti-Gay"
04:36 My Concerns About The Song
06:43 Reaction and Review To "Hell Together"
16:13 Final Thoughts - Розваги
What do you all think of the song? ❤
Thanks for your review. I interpreted the “hallelujah, what’s it doing for ya?” As maybe these were thoughts going through his head for his personal journey with the church
Amazing! You are right! We all love him! No one loves him as much as his mother!
I really liked it. I could feel his struggles. I wanted to reach out and hold him in a long hug and to share my beliefs with him that got me through.
I agree with you as a person raised in the lds faith that it's a lot of pressure. I been trying to find a place where I can be myself and still believe. I can hear David's pain in the whole song. I cry every time I hear it.
I love how you articulate and put yourself to the song. I agree, we don't need to lose our faith because of this issue/s. Remember that God is Love, we may judged, criticized, or discriminate by the society. But we must to live out the love, compassion, and mercy of God in our lives.
If my mom came to me today, a few months shy of 20 years since I came out, and said, “if that place called heaven is a place you’re not allowed to be unless you be somebody different, then I don’t want to be there”, I would finally have a mother. Instead, she has asked me repeatedly when I am going to give up my gay lifestyle and has chastised me for forcing her to choose between her faith and her son. She chooses her faith and condemns her son to hell.
I didn’t hear the song as “gay people go to hell”. I heard the song as, “if hating people for how they were made is what heaven is, I want the opposite of that”. And in religious speak, that opposite is hell. I also didn’t hear an encouragement to abandon faith, but rather to understand what damage your religion is doing and make adjustments. My life got infinitely better when I got away from the church. I was able to stop worrying about going to hell and just be who I am. I see how you hear the negative message, but I hear a beautiful message of what love really is. His mom chose him; mine chose the toxic religious culture.
😢😢 Your words are so deeply appreciated. Thank you for sharing that. I can somewhat actually relate. Being a parent is one of the greatest gifts we can ever be given. I’m sorry your mother couldn’t see that. My own parents both struggled in that area as well. You are loved, new friend. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Amen to that!
I don't think he's leaving his faith just the church. I left the Mormon church about a week or 2 ago and my faith in God will always be here. I just lost my faith in Mormon church
I’m happy to hear that you walked away. The Mormon Church is definitely a cult. Sadly, an interview with David filmed last year confirms that he was walked away from faith altogether. Like you, I do wish he would have kept it only to the Mormon Church, but this song blames the “pages” meaning it’s his misunderstanding that any faith will not accept him. I wish I could be in his life in some way to show him that that isn’t the truth .
Religion/church is not part of divinity.
This is me
Keep deconstructing, religion is all man made but most churches are safer than lds
Give it time. It's only been a week or 2. It took me about a year to say, yeah it's all bulloney. #justbenice
I’m a trans woman who grew up mormon, I just want to gently push back on the characterization of the title and themes as problematic. The Mormon church only exists based off of shame, it’s what motivates the membership entirely, I think more grace can be given to David under that context. He’s referring to the mormon concept of hell, known as “outer darkness” a place exclusively reserved for mormon apostates. Under this context of religious trauma I think it’s entirely justified to associate being queer with going to hell. Like you pointed out, it’s tongue in cheek. I’m unsure of where I stand on religion but I just thought I’d add some context.
Also most exmormons end up atheists, that’s just a consequence of deconstructing a cult, you end up seeing how inconsistent mormon history is and apply that same standard too all religion, they don’t usually make the cut for most people.
Thank you so much for your comment. I don’t disagree with you that David is being tongue in cheek about the version of hell he was presented. That’s not what I’m arguing. With respect, I believe I was quite thorough that what I take issue with is the use of the terms Heaven, Hell, Hallelujah, etc that apply to the general Christian faith, not just Mormonism. Mormonism has hijacked these terms and most people are not aware of the differences. I do believe David walking away from all faith, not just Mormonism doubles down on this message. The “outer darkness” argument, although informative, is irrelevant in this context as it’s not mentioned in the song and doesn’t negate the central message of “Hell for LGBTQ people” which blatantly takes center stage. It’s ok that we disagree, I just wanted to make sure I am reiterating what I said because you seem to have misunderstood by your in incorrect summary of my argument.
Yes!!!! @NiaNostos
As someone who grew up in the Mormon church, served a mission, got married, did everything I was supposed to, then my wife had a faith crisis, left the church and I was forced to choose between having a happy marriage now or possibly living forever without her; I feel this song so much. I chose my wife over a potential forever. It all came down to me asking "would heaven be heaven without the person I love?" The answer is that it would be hell to be without her. If you are going to hell, I'm going too. I would rather spend eternity in hell with her than a moment in heaven without her. This song has helped me in so many ways voice my feelings about my standing with God and the church... if there is another life beyond this, I am glad I chose my best friend to spend forever with.
That makes me cry. Because it is horrid that we have to choose the people we love, even if they're "amazing people", over eternal "bliss?"
I love this song. I don't hear it the same way you do. He isn't necessarily saying goodbye to faith, but to the religious constructs that other people have burdened him with. The "hell" they're going to is the made up place that other people are wrongfully condemning him to. I also believe that if the faith you are in isn't serving you, it's okay to look inside and find your own connection to creation.
Such a powerful song and beautifully performed
I definitely don't understand the song the same way you do. This is HIS experience.
Mormons will give you flack but exmormons will agree. 👀👀👀 I think that says A LOT
I enjoyed this video, Gilbert. Thank you for being so honest and sharing your perspective. I am a long-time fan of David and seeing his evolution from American Idol to now with the roller coaster in between has been a true journey. So glad I'm here to see where he is now. While I don't share your exact feelings & concerns about David's current faith position, I can clearly see how earnest you are and how much you appreciate David as a person. I really respect that.
Something I found interesting about the song is how much it sounds like a hymn. I'm sure that juxtaposition is intentional but when the Hallelujah chorus came in the first time I listened, I actually gasped. I love when songs surprise me and pull me into genuine reactions. 🙌
Thank you so much for sharing so honestly, sensitively and wisely! You just brought a little bit of warm glossy tears to my eyes. 🥹 Thank you immensely. And yes, I will ALWAYS be a fan of David. I adore him and have supported him since the beginning and I will never stop! ❤❤
I hope many hear this song
I have never been religious. I agree this is a very beautiful and very powerful song. I can't believe anyone would suggest it not be released. I'm afraid if you think the Mormon church will ever be a welcoming place for gays and lesbians you are sadly mistaken. I hope this song helps more Mormon families stick together, even if that means them having to leave their faith together. Actual family and actual love is so much more important than the make-believe stories organized religion will tell you.
He is only speaking of his experience in the Mormon Church. He speaks of this in other interviews and his mom recently left the Mormon church as well. I'm an exmormon and Mormons don't believe in hell persay, but rather three levels of kingdoms, the lowest two being separated from your family. To many of us, that is hell. I'm a mom of a gay son that chose my son over the Mormon faith. My son is a very spiritual person and he and I bawled watching 1946 The Movie. We were lied to in the Mormon Church. That is David's experience and his mom's experience. It's okay for them to take a break in order to heal. The Mormon church did a number on all of us. We were just lucky enough to escape.
I do feel like the song is specifically speaking of Mormon "Heaven/Paradise" ("someone else's Heaven") where it's taught you can't get there unless you have met very specific requirements: married to someone of the Mormon faith in the temple (same sex marriage is not allowed), remain faithful & serve all your life & give 10% of your income your whole life. So there is no Mormon heaven for him, so "hell" is the only option. It's A LOT! Mormonism is very specific black & white in it's teachings. There is no place for anyone different in the Mormon church. Unfortunately, I feel like Mormonism alienates & deeply wounds anyone in the queer community so much so that letting go of the faith all together is a way to survive when drowning in sorrow & rejection. I know the God David "knew" is not the God you know. Hope that makes sense. 💕
We actually believe there are 4 different places people can go based on how they live their life-either the Celestial, Terestial, or Telestial Kingdom, or in RARE cases, outer darkness. We don't even really talk about "Hell" but instead of a place called outer darkness (only the most wicked go there). We're also told not to decide where somebody will end up-it's not our place to. I mean this with the most respect and everybody has the right to their own opinion-just wanted to clear up the misconception:)
@@scarletnoorlander5682 I completely see what you’re saying, there is a misconceptions between people thinking it’s just one heaven within mormonism. But one thing the song is explaining is how his active Mormon family would be celestial (or whichever heaven) and not with David in the end cause he chose to leave mormonism. That was the hardest part about leaving mormonism, coming to terms that I won’t be with my family in the end because I left. Again I say this with all the respect, just adding to your clarification of multiple heavens and the songs meaning!
You hit it spot on. There's a lot of overlap between Mormonism and the other general Christian community, but there are major differences in its teachings, specifically in how a person develops a relationship with the Mormon God, that the other Christian communities have difficulty understanding. It's leagues more manipulative and consuming than other common Christian religions (that is not to discount the still severe wounds those more common religions can inflict on a person). I have found that ex-orthodox Catholics, ex-orthodox Jew, and ex-orthodox Muslims can understand the nuances of an ex-Mormon experience.
@@scarletnoorlander5682 The clarification is important, you're right. What is notable is how rare it is for people to go to outer darkness, i.e. Mormon Hell. The only people who go to outer darkness are people who leave Mormonism, i.e. apostates/sons of perdition. Only they get to experience the "complete absence of God" and reside with Satan and his angels. According to the lore.
@didrial No, people who leave The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not go to outer darkness. It's almost impossible for a person who was born on earth to end up there. People who have seen and experienced Jesus's presence, and know for a fact that Jesus is the Christ and chose to not believe after those experiences are the ones in danger of that. For example, if a person like Joseph Smith decided he didn't believe in his faith anymore, he'd be in danger of going to outer darkness.
The bridge, I thought, was calling out the hypocrisy of praising God and then using your next breath to hate your neighbor for how God made them
My best friend is gay and Mormon and we have talked at length about how welcome he feels in the church. Listen we all think and believe differently, let’s respect that
I have always been a man of faith, and will always be. I remember back when I was studying theology, I learned that it is better not to believe but to do good things than to believe but do things unacceptable to God's will; those are the people worthy of God's promises. I have heard and witnessed people who don't believe in God or have lost their belief in God share their stories and past experiences. If David meant to entirely leave his faith based on that bridge of the song, then for me it's acceptable and understandable. Because for me, it takes a lot of courage to turn back on your religion, but it also takes a lot more courage to open your door to another, especially when you still have those beliefs implanted in your head by your past religion.
I’m so happy for David. I’m glad he has the unconditional support of his mother. I also don’t think he was conveying that gay folks go “to hell”. It was more implying that Mormonism preaches that idea and his mom ultimately decided her son was more important than a vague ideology.
Your explanation of Mormonism had me rolling lol. You are absolutely correct in that description, whether currently believing Mormons know it or not. As a believing Utah Mormon, I was taught that I was Christian. When I moved away and also left the cult, I found out just how opposite the Christian teachings really were.
You are also absolutely correct that the narrative or assumption that those of us who aren't straight are going to hell is harmful. So obviously harmful. What is missing in translation here from general Christianity and Mormonism is the definition of "hell." For Mormons, the only ones going to actual "hell" (outer darkness) are what they term as apostates, i.e. anyone who has a "perfect" knowledge of the truth and abandons it. Basically, it's anyone who was Mormon, was baptized and perhaps even made temple covenants, and decides to leave. So the term "hell" in this song is actually a reference to him leaving the Church, not a reference to him being gay. Being gay is heavily stigmatized and prevents someone from making those "sacred covenants," which often results in not being a member of the Church, but it isn't automatically a "hell sentence."
I’m gay and ex-lds and something to point out is that Church and members are two different things and David points this out a lot just like his mother, they don’t agree with the leadership and most members of the church for their judgement of being queer, even if it means leaving the church or loosing the way to salvation as believed in the lds church, thus the title “Hell Together” , but nowhere it means to loose their faith in god or the gospel, and where I disagree with you is that you mentioned Jesus Christ is not believed to be a holy being by the church and that’s where you are wrong and misleading, also title of the song is being hypocritical not literal since of course they believe in a god that loves us all equally but only they do not agreeing with the believes of other members or Christians, I love the song and feel very connected to it. And love that the main meaning of the song that most are not understanding which is, the pure love of a mother who would loose anything even her faith instead of loosing her son ❤,
What you said about how the Mormon church being its own different thing is a sentiment I’ve heard from other Christians, and I understand that. However, I will just say that when red hurts you, pink looks scary. I know that they are distinctly different, but they are similar enough where Christianity is unappetizing after a traumatic Mormon experience.
There are fundamental differences in the doctrine. Those differences are oppposing. It’s not just a different version, it’s opposing in its theology. Salvation means going to heaven. They have different takes on that. Those takes oppose one another. In general Christianity, only God can save us… That is why Jesus is God in the flesh. In Mormonism, Jesus is not the father, he is the son alone, and is not the God that created this world. That goes against all of the Old Testament in the Bible. Mormons, teach that you will become your own God of your own celestial planet and you will populate it with your heterosexual wife creating billions of spirit children. This is absolute blasphemy compared to the Old Testament and the New Testament of the holy Bible. The names of God are different. Mormons, believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers. This is also blasphemy. Jesus was never created, Lucifer was. Lucifer was an angel, he was not in the same league as Jesus. I could go on and on…it is intellectually, lazy and manipulative and dishonest to claim that these religions are not wildly different, because they are. This has nothing to do with pain or hurt or disappointment. This has to do with theological studies and the blatant warnings in the Bible to reject false doctrines (like Mormonism) because according to the Bible, that is how Satan plans to deceive the masses and clearly your comments are confirmation that it is working… at least on some individuals
@@GilbertGTV That is true, the doctrines are fundamentally different. It is just that the spiritual experiences and the way we get confirmation of truth are very similar. In my Mormon faith I really had a strong connection with a God who loved me, and who I was trying to emulate by being a better person. I’m not exactly familiar with how christians gain a testimony, but I imagine it is similar to how Mormon’s gain a testimony which is by praying to God and waiting for a witness from the Holy Ghost, or the spirit of God, or the comforter that Jesus promised in the last supper, or whatever phrase or terminology that is used to describe the warm sacred feeling that enters your heart when you feel at peace. So for me, I feel that Christianity and Mormonism is similar in that way. Another issue for me has been the patriarchy that has pervaded Christianity. The Mormon church is very patriarchal in that only men are ordained to the priesthood. I went to a nondenominational christian church with my friend a few times after I stopped attending the Mormon church. I remember one Sunday when the pastor cracked a sexist joke, which everyone laughed at, and also touched briefly on the family unit on how wives should “submit” to their husband. It bothered me and I couldn’t help thinking, “is christianity doomed to be haunted by patriarchy?”. Given your liberal views on gay people I likewise assume that you have your own interpretations for potentially disturbing parts of the bible that make women less than men. However that has just been something that has been tough for me as well. At this point, it is hard not to feel betrayed by God a tiny bit, because I prayed to him to ask if the Book of Mormon is true, and I believed I had confirmation from the Holy Ghost. I don’t have the emotional maturity or bandwidth to trust in God the way Christians do at this point in my life. You are a very great Christian though, truly trying to show Christ-like love to people so I appreciate that. I just wanted to share my experience of why transitioning from Mormon to Christian is harder than it might appear.
What you said and this song just fills me with joy! I’m an openly queer ordained clergy person and it took many years for me to heal. I went through conversion therapy which failed, obviously. My spiritual work now focuses on those who have been hurt and burned by the church. I will say that sometimes people need to leave something in order to redefine it and seek their truth. Some people who are brought up in this toxic theology don’t know that there is something else out there that speaks to a God of love. Keep sharing your message of love! Sending YOU love! ❤
Thank you so much!! 🥹🙏🏼❤️
The way I interpreted the song, at least, is the "hell" and "heaven" he, or his mom I suppose, speak of are not real. They are what others in organized religion have used to hurt people. This is more about the mormon church, than it is about God himself.
"If they dont like the way your made, then theyre not any better" is very much, in my mind, connecting to songs like Born This Way; the way youre created is uncontrollable, but ultimately beautiful.
I dont think any of this song is a call to leave God, or even the church. Just a note of how organized religion can do those things.
This song is beautiful and powerful...i was raised Catholic i stepped way from the church I am now Episcopalian I love my church and the people in my church they are very excepting if I had a partner We are allowed to get married in the church...I pray say my daily prayers read my Bible God made me Gay and I know he loves me if I go to hwll irs because I have been a bad person not follow Gods commandments not because I am gay..great song great show
I am gay and battled my very strong belief in JESUS for many years. If you can, please share with David. That I firmly believe that ,as long as we believe that JESUS died to save us, we WILL have eternal life. Most likely not in heaven but here on Earth when it is recreated around the time of the New Jerusalem.
If you're worried that it will discourage people from believing in God pray to God that he use the song for positive change and that it bring people closer to love, respect, and understanding. Then ask him how you can help him to do so.
What if that’s already what’s happening?
@@GilbertGTV Then good job Gods got it.
I'm sorry for any church members who struggle in faith and leave the church do to miss understanding of the teachings of the gospel can easy miss judged.
Thank you for your views❤❤❤
Thank you so much
Faith is trust. When it comes to divinity you only trust ONE source. God is love the rest is commentary.
This came up because I watched his song today. TONS and TONS of times. It's pretty faith specific in the words. You don't need to worry about his soul. As you said, God's love isn't earned. I also am newly exMo and God is okay with my faith crisis.
💕💕💕🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Very fair! Love to you! Thank you for watching! I deeply appreciate it! ❤
The church began in the 1830’s the major growth and migration was in the 1840’s. Every branch of my family tree joined in the beginning years. They all left their jobs, homes and community to follow a false prophet to Utah. At the age of 40 my idea of the truth SHATTERED.
David was raised to believe there are three kingdoms in heaven. They basically translate to Rich-Middle Class- and Poor. Not being in the top kingdom is the worst, we have fear built into us starting from 18 months that will will be alone and cast out from Gods presence if we aren’t in the perfect kingdom. Many of us have reconciled these teaching to now know the “perfection” to be in the top kingdom isn’t sincere. We will go to a lower genuine kingdom rather than be with the pressure.
According to the Mormon faith…hell is for murderers and adulterers. Everyone else will be “sorted” to their kingdoms
Let you know his lyrics is what his mom said not what David said. Read his mom's article these words are his mom's words. Of her leaving the gospel last year
Thank you for this. I have read her statement. 🙏🏼❤️
To me, as an ex mormon and an atheist. I love this song! To me its a call to say that family is more important because your together, then a faith that could separate you. And maybe I would be different if I grew up and believed in a loving God. But to me this song is perfect and beautiful and a true sign of an amazing mothers love for her children.
It's a narrative about not wanting to be separated from your child because of dogma. Staying with the LDS faith caused him suicidal ideation. I cry every time I hear this song because I wish I felt that kind of solidarity from my own parents. Lupe is wise & brave. You can learn more if you watch her Mormon Stories interview.
David's song is beautiful and very moving. I don't believe David believes he is going to hell (that imaginary place). Of course not. It's a reflection on his own personal experience in his Church and how others reacted to him because of the tenets of the Church. Of course it is also what his mom relayed to him in showing her loving support, the basis of the song. I'm sure they are on their own personal journeys now with a much clearer vision of the truth. God, whatever your concept of God is, can be a part of your life without you being a part of any orthodox religion, the only way for me, personally. David is not speaking for other people, only for himself and his own experiences. I think you are over analyzing and reading things into this incredible song, that are simply not there. Enjoy the beauty and profound meaning of it. I believe this song will help a lot of people.
I’m so grateful that I got out of religion alive. It’s so toxic and manipulative.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information on Mormons from. We absolutely believe in Jesus Christ as not only the son of God, but divine.
You don’t believe He created *this* world though. You believe His father did and He is a separate God, a different entity. The Book of Mormon teaches this. That is my source and that perversion is blasphemy
@@GilbertGTVNo, we believe Jesus created this earth under the direction of His Father, God. Yes, we believe God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct beings, but one in purpose. We believe in the Godhead, not the trinity. This is why we are labeled as non-Christians by other Christian religions.
5:44 honestly, i think it is part of what you're saying, but it is also because Mormonism puts rejecting their docterine on the same level as cold blooded murder (maybe even above it in severity), so walking away from Mormonism alone is supposed to condemn you to Hell (or "outer darkness")
No offense, but I grew up Southern Baptist (which is very much so mainstream in American Christianity), and this song very much so reflects my experience with evangelicalism except the happy ending part where my parents stood with me. And it’s a story I’ve heard from other people. Like Catholics. I get what you’re trying to do. I get you’re trying to say it doesn’t have to be that way. But also, David is telling a very common and painful story and his story is valid. Hopefully it changes, and I know people are fighting for that. But in 2024, David’s song is the more common experience.
Thank you for this! Organized religions do have unshakable stances on this (like Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Muslims, etc) but I don’t believe true Christianity is supposed to be that way. I know this may sound offensive, but the truth, I see it that Jesus died to break us out of organized religion and to bring us close to Him in a relationship. Relationships are not built on rules and regulations, or at least they shouldn’t be. We have boundaries and we honor those we love in our relationships but that is different. My issue with the song is that it uses the same terminology that RELATIONSHIPS with God also use. Had he made clear, in the lyrics, that he was leaving Mormonism specifically, I would have no issue. However, the terminology is applicable to any faith at all and that’s why I think is damaging.
I left Christianity for good because of church politics.
I actually do understand. I know that we shouldn’t allow fallible people to have anything to do with our own personal relationship with God, but it’s often easier said than done. It just leaves such a bad taste in the mouth. I see you. 🙏🏼❤️
As a queer exMormon I am truly offended that you felt like you have the right to put the hashtag in the bio. Especially after you are spreading misinformation about the LDS church in the video. And then try to defend yourself in the comments when someone is telling you what lds members truly believe; from an actual exMormon.
And the fact that you feel like the message of the song is that you are going to hell if you are gay is truly missing the true message coming across. It’s obviously is mother talking to him. Telling him if you go I am going to leave the church with. Because I can’t live forever in the celestial kingdom of heaven without you. because it will be my (his mother) personal hell. In the most respectful way that is how a true LGBT exMormon will hear and listen to this. Because that is what they truly believe.
You spoke truth and said it very well. Thank you my exLDS friend!
Personally, I think the title is fine. In general Christianity, yes, there is no direct condemnation in scripture, but that is not the case in Mormonism. Being gay is considered a sexual sin which is one of two sins that sends you to “outer darkness”. Outer darkness is not hell. It’s oblivion. Essentially, David’s mother told her she wouldn’t want to exist in a universe where that were happen to her child. That’s love, and among families in the church, it’s rare.
All I see pain. All I hear is pain.
As an ex-mormon, I can say you got it wrong about their faith and beliefs.
They believe Jesus is divine and a God. Mormon is a Christian sect.
But you believe Jesus to be a SEPARATE God other than the God who made this planet! That is not Christian Doctrine. There is only ONE God!
Don't want to give you too much flak but your assertions about Mormon belief are not correct. I am a gay Mormon. Born and raised.
What did I say, specifically, did you find incorrect?
And what kind of life do you get to live as a gay mormon? Are you staying celibate your whole life? Are you getting into a mixed orientation marriage? You can be a gay mormon, sure, but unless the doctrine changed this moment, you can’t live as gay and have gay relationships while being a mormon in good standing.
I think from your framework and understanding your getting caught up with doctrinal issues of what is "truth". From an ex Mormon perspective this has no negative perspective. Culturally if you don't go to the highest tier of heaven you're in hell. Mormons would believe he will go to heaven just not to the highest. There's really not a hell as Christians believe. So in your mind and his mind, hell is 2 different places. As an ex Mormon myself I remember feeling like I was going to hell and I came to a place that I knew that was not true.
Your review is really frustrating when you know NOTHING about what goes on in Mormonism and many denominations of Christianity. Many people have been traumatized by Christianity and you have no right to tell him or anyone that they’re wrong for not wanting to be involved in that anymore. As a former exmo, you need to step back and respect his experience or keep your mouth closed.
You are making an egregious error in underestimating me and how much I have studied on all of these religions and have been studying the Bible and doing active ministry, and as an openly gay minister. Your venom is not for me. And even if you intend it, I will not accept it.
@@GilbertGTV👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
@@GilbertGTV lol oooook 🙄
Founded in 1830..
Haha thanks. I do believe it was April 6, 1830 though, in Fayette Township (New York.)
David is referring to the Mormon church.
Two things contradict the idea that he is simply singing about leaving the Mormon Church, specifically:
1) The lyrics of the song denounce all faith. The terms used (Heaven, Hell, the pages [of a Holy book], Hallelujah, etc) are not exclusive to the Mormon Church.
2) He himself admitted to being an Atheist and leaving all faith last year in an interview.
@@GilbertGTV If you go to his UA-cam channel, he says the lyrics came from a conversation he had with his mom, who noticed that the lds church wasn’t welcoming to the LGBTQA+ community, and she wouldn’t go to a place where her son wasn’t accepted as he is. This song resonates with the LDS teachings. I know what I’m saying, being an ex mo, too. If you want to believe he put all Christianity under the bus it’s your opinion. Now, I didn’t know he said he was an atheist. I need to watch that interview you mentioned.
how is going to hell a good thing though
Right? My exact thoughts. That’s not something to celebrate.
You are missing the point of the message he is not saying actual Hell she means it in a figurative or metaphorical way
@@mariettaborders1647 but hell is not metaphorical. Not everyone believes in it. I understand that. But for all who do, it’s where you spend eternity. It’s literally not a metaphor. I think that’s where the disconnect comes in. And also, you have to consider context. The song is about someone being rejected and told they are going to hell because of their sexuality. Again, it’s not a metaphor. It’s the spiritual claim of the song. Clearly one of us missed the point of this song, and it isn’t me.
As an atheist, religion makes no sense to me. I don’t need religion to be a good person. I have no respect for religion. With that being said, it’s your right to believe what you want. I might disagree, but it’s not up to me to tell others what to believe. If it gets you out of bed in the morning and makes you feel complete as a human being, you do you. It’s not my place to criticize your beliefs. Even if he stopped believing, he’d still be a good human being. Whatever he chooses, his mother will be right there next to him.
I don’t disagree with any of that and it wasn’t the point of my video at all.
Sorry, man, but as a gay ex-Mormon myself who came out in 1992, i have to say you have some misinformation about that church and what it teaches. It's still difficult to accept your sexuality, and difficult for your Mormon family to figure out how to respond, in that church. Many Christian churches have similar issues, but thankfully there are many Christian denominations that now embrace their non-heterosexual sisters and brothers.
Thank you for your comment. When you say, "you have some misinformation about that church and what it teaches" what are you specifically referring to? Don't summarize. Quote me. What did I say SPECIFICALLY that was incorrect?
@@GilbertGTV The part about their teachings regarding people of African descent - what you said there was never officially part of the doctrine of the church, although it was believed by a lot of people, and it was officially refuted in the late 70s. There were other things, but that was the one that I remember at the moment. I don't have time to rewatch the video right now and go through all the points. I remember thinking that the incorrect points were all things that opponents of the Mormon church commonly say about them, so I'm not surprised that you came across them.
@@starhawk63 2013 was the year anti-black beliefs were officially rejected. That was only 11 years ago. The history of Mormonism against Black people is extensive, even believing that obedient black slaves and servants would be rewarded with “white skin” in the next life. I was not incorrect. In fact, I didn’t go deep enough.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism#:~:text=In%201978%2C%20when%20the%20church,the%20first%20time%20in%202013.
@@GilbertGTV No, that was in 1978. And most of us didn't believe it long before that. Wikipedia isn't a good source for accurate info on religion. I'm an editor on Wikipedia myself, and so are thousands more. Just keep in mind some people will deliberately put incorrect info in there.
@@starhawk63In 1978, the church dropped its ban on letting black men hold the priesthood. It did not disavow racist theories about why the priesthood was denied in the first place. While many general authorities believed and taught that black skin was a curse for not being righteous, it was never official church doctrine. Those racist beliefs were also not officially refuted until 2013.
No offense, but you were doing a lot of backflips to try and 'explain' homophobia in the bible. The Christian doctrine vehemently condemns homosexuality, period.
David might be ex-mormon, but his trauma mirrors that of queer individuals who grew up in the Christian church -- whichever denomination.
I’m actually not as limber as I used to be, so I don’t know what “back flips” you were talking about. But your generalization with no acknowledgment of the original language that never condemns same-sex loving, committed relationships is ironic as you try and complain about me who did actually explain context, cited a documentary which is filled with sources and listen further resources in the description. You came here to troll me and showcase your ignorance when there is a bigger discussion at hand. Sad you couldn’t be part of that.
@@GilbertGTVI'm a queer man who grew up under the tyranny of ultra-religious, Christian parents, that’s the only source I need to cite. 😂 My point is, you going out of your way to differentiate mormonism w/classic Christianity minimizes the homophobia in ALL Christian sects.
I don't care what documentary you watch lmao. The pastor of my church stood in front of his congregation and condemned homosexuality, saying "gays will burn in hell."
The Christian doctrine that is already ENTRENCHED, and TAUGHT to millions of people, is inherently homophobic, and no documentary you watch is going to change that.
@@LosAnggraito Oh no! Please don’t get me wrong! I have my stories too! Mainstream Christianity ✝️ can be just as bad, if not WORSE than the Mormon Church on this issue. No one is contesting that. I wouldn’t even bring it up had others not brought up the idea that Mormonism and general Christianity were similar. They are not. They might be on this issue, but they are completely different religions. The confusing part for people is that Mormons use the same terms and names that general Christians do. That’s a huge problem and reason for the confusion. And again, the second reason I brought it up was because David didn’t just leave the Mormon Church. He left all faith. He blames the “pages” in the song which can be interpreted as the Book of Mormon or the Bible and that’s why I am making tang differential.
Big difference between organized religion and spirituality. Leaving any religion that teaches hate is great. By the way… God is not a man with a beard up in the sky. You keep calling God/Source a him.
What pronouns do you use for God?
@@GilbertGTV The Source of everything has no pronoun.
1 Corinthian 6:9-10 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
The Bible is very clear. Do not be deceived.
Luther Weigel was the head of the translation department at Yale University, who put that word “homosexual“ in the Bible for the very first time in 1946. Soon after he was challenged by a seminary student, he realized he had made a mistake. Luther tried to get the translation changed, seeing as how that was not an accurate choice of word: I discuss it more in this clip:
ua-cam.com/video/00Kp37xaJos/v-deo.htmlsi=c1ismfgg-hZFkyW_
@GilbertGTV What about what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible? To this day, it's a wasteland where brimstone is still found.
God loves all people, but He has set moral standards in place for us to follow. If we struggle in any area that the Bible says is a sin, it doesn't mean we were born that way, but rather, we need deliverance. Jesus is the deliverer. There are people who struggle with pornography, adultery, masturbation, stealing, lying, etc. that they can't seem to break off. By approaching God and asking Him to empower us with His Holy Spirir to help us overcome our temptation, we can be free of any sin.. God can remove our desire to sin.
10:58 you have to admit that the Evangelicals have been just as bad, if nit worse, than the Mormons. So, if someone wants to interpret this as refering to the bible rather than the book of Mormon, that is thier experience and they cant be blamed from leaving the whole thing behind as a result. When you go through enough trauma where a holy text is used as a weapon against you and a tool of that trauma, having anything to do with it can be too much to bear, and that is valid. Walking away from Mornonism or Christianity or Islam or anything else doesnt have to mean walking away from a faith in a god of some sort; it just means walking away from the institutions that used God's name in vain to harm them. You dont have to be Christian to believe in god, but everyone in a religion likes to pretend that you do. They are saying that if leaving an INSTITUTION (not necessarily the faith in that deity) that hurt you and your family gets you a one way ticket to hell like they say it does, then they are fine with that.
I hear you that mormonism and your christianity are different, and I don’t think you’re giving enough credit to the mormon experience. Members are taught it is the only true church, so they really have to toss the whole thing out before they can know what of anything spiritual is left. I appreciate your heaven and your god are safe for gay people, but David’s god and heaven experience weren’t like that. Please don’t cheapen his experience by saying it is not the same as yours, so god isn’t like that.
Your position on “mainstream christianity” also comes off as a bit naive honesty, to suggest that a mistranslation of the bible actually means that all Christians are not against gay people. Many Christians are still against gay people, regardless of any translation issue of the bible, of which there are many. Your version of christianity doesn’t become the truth about all christianity just because you want it to be.
So here’s the thing. I am aware that David’s god and my God are different. No arguments there. The problem is that the terms are exactly the same (Heaven, Hell, God, etc.) That’s my issue. This song isn’t called “Mormon Hell Together.” If this song made any kind of mention of the separation between Mormonism and regular Christianity, I would still be concerned for children growing up in the Mormon Church, but my disappointment would be no where near as intense. This song speaks about faith in general and condemns it (“Hallelujah’, what’s it doing for ya? When it gets in the way. Hallelujah, wish we knew it sooner!”) I think it’s misleading to pretend that those core messages aren’t in this song, because they are. This song even blames the “text” (which is not specifically called out to be only the Book of Mormon.) That means it is also condemning the Bible (and all other “holy books”, essentially.) What really confuses me is that I explained all of this in the video and yet, you still posted this comment, completely disregarding everything that was already there that invalidated it.
And my “version” of Christianity? What are you talking about? That is YOUR interpretation of what I am saying and therefore I’m not owning it. I’m not selling any kind of “Christian” brand. To the contrary, I’m asking for David (and EVERYONE watching this video) to do the work of research YOURSELF on this issue. No one is exempt from the consequences of what they say they believe. We are all accountable for not only what we believe but why we believe it. You should never just have beliefs because you were in a group that held them. That’s cowardly. You are responsible for seeking truth. We all are. That was my point. David didn’t do any work of seeking truth outside of his own religion before making this song. That’s why I am utterly disappointed in him as an artist and said what I did about him one day possibly regretting this song. He “spoke” on it WAAAYY too early. This song is damaging because whether he meant it this way or not, as a song being put out there for the masses, it comes across as the “finish line” when clearly David has so much growing and seeking that he could be doing. Nothing about what *I* said is naive, sir. I do agree that there is naivety going on here, but it certainly isn’t coming from me.
I'm active in the church and it hurts a lot to see David leave the gospel I fail in love with him since 2021 and God told me I'm his future but now I feel like I lost him completely and I struggle with faith because of him. Being patient is hard and even though God told me what I have lost is still mine but is it really. I already lost my opportunity for temple marriage with him in this life and I told myself I will give it a try ask him in the next life if David have me as his wife if not be hard to fall in love with someone else
💀
Get help
Maybe you should slow down and do some research before you start spouting things you allegedly "know" about another faith's theology. Literally the first sentence out of your mouth about what Mormons believe was complete hogwash. Integrity matters.
It's not hogwash. Non-Mormon Christians believe there is only one God. You believe Jesus is a different god. You do not believe Jesus to be the Creator of this planet. I was not incorrect. I could have articulated it better, but I wasn't wrong. You believe Jesus to be a different god and that is not consistent to the general Christian faith. My first sentence was actually not ebem about that entirely. My first comments were about the "backstory" that Mormons created about an existence before Earth was created. This is not Christian doctrine. Instead of insulting me, you should have paid better attention to the video and researched the differences between Mormonism and the general Christian faith. You gave sass for no reason. Keep your disrespect. I didn't call for it, sir.
You dont know what youre talking about. Stop it because your knowledge is wrong
Um, what? I explain my thoughts quite thoroughly. And I provide receipts. It’s not my responsibility to own your inability to comprehend them.