I know how much yall like whiteboard thunder so strap yourselves in and get ready for a 3-part special of your boy talking over a slideshow for 30 minutes
@@jaiell2049 besides it having unmatched climb rate, turning like a zero, being nearly impossible to stall out, and having good guns? yeah you're right, it should skip 6.0 and go directly to 6.3/6.7
@@CatWerfer Trying my best not to fall, dont feel discouraged. The physics aspect is quite academic so people learn something. You make me remember AdamTheEnginerd with the climb stuff
@@bassbusterx it depends on the plane, some are more stable in a stall than others. if you do it right tho most planes don't have that much of an issue
I've recently learned how to make SEP over airspeed charts through WTRTI's inbuilt graph tool to figure out best climb speeds, making EM graphs would be a fantastic addition to my arsenal!
One problem I saw with the EM diagram you showed is that they don't seem to account for the controls locking up. Sure, theoretically the P-51 has a corner speed of 560 km/h and pulls 11.2 Gs. But this is only if the controls don't lock up. Datamines show us that the elevator of the P-51 starts getting weaker above 500 km/h (the "ElevatorsEffectiveSpeed" value). This is particularly prevalent in aircraft like the LaGG-3s and La-5s which compress extremely hard. Additionally, it doesn't account for flaps. Some planes have flaps that actually improve turn rate (J2Ms).
The p51d has a relatively "soft" control surface lockup that's only really apparent near rip speed. If i hadn't accounted for it, the pink line would not curve down at high speed. Flaps change the entire structure of the em plot, I mentioned it but maybe you missed it. Aircraft with flaps down settings would need a separate plot.
this is a lot of useful info for newer players that have little experience that would take a lot of time to learn through just playing the game and not everyone would be capable of gaining this info through playing as there is a lot going on when you are in a dog fight and many people cant keep track of their speed alt throttle how much ammo you have along with tracking one or more enemies at the same time so this graph is a treasure trove that if you learn how to read it and utilize it will give you a huge advantage over many that play the game because you can go into fights that would normally seem unwinnable if you have a strategy on how to play to your advantage and the opponents disadvantage an example would be with the graph shown the p51 if you have to take a turn fight against some one you want to do it in a downward spiral at close to your max flat speed because you can maintain your max turn rate only at a high speed and almost always avoid an upward spiral because the p51 is gonna lose that fight most of the time but to get the most out of graphs like these you really need to also look at the graph for what ever you are fighting and form a strategy for engagements where you can take the fight to where they are weaker than you it wont always be where your plane preforms best but where your opponent is considerably worse than you
You legend. I learned about EM diagrams a few years ago, but the maths and Excel plotting eluded me. Looking forward to the next video on how to make these 😁
Very nice explanation! I could never understand how to read those diagrams tbh. I'm looking forward to the creation video. I don't play WT so but I'll prolly end up using this in my SimplePlanes designs.
i mean maybe he was out of ammo and just wanted to show off some defensive flying before he died lol. He did jink enough to give me a hard time hitting him (skill issue on my end lmao)
It should be noted this is a relatively modern concept developed in conjunction with 4th gen jets. It's difficult to get accurate EM graphs of WW2 aircraft or early jets, as they have to be inferred from old flight test data with dubious accuracy
Is computational fluid dynamics not good enough or is it too expensive to run for a game? I'm not thinking about running it in real time. I'm thinking about Gaijin running it to get performance data to then plop into an easy to compute model.
@@ozan1234561 there arent. there literally no planes with its performace at a lower br. it has 2900hp, its climb rate is insane for 5.0 yet alone 4.7. Bad MER can be a good thing, just work around it.
@@ushikiii pyörremyrsky, j2m and spitfires at its br climb better or on par, have better guns and turn much better Edit: forgot yak-3s that just run circles around it at every altitude
Fantastic stuff. Wish Gaijin'd contract with you to have the game UI spit these exact sort of plots out (conveniently, they could be 3D) except we live in a world where the UI numbers for turn rate are literally just wrong so, lol.
my suspicion is that gaijin doesn't really want people to have access to this kind of information. I remember when they first added missiles and radars and flares and gaijin still doesn't have an official video on how irccm missiles work and how to dodge them, leaving it up to dataminers to figure it out and youtubers to publicise it. the reason they'd want to do this is if they had officially endorsed data plots on how aircraft fly in game, their flight models would be liable to scrutiny, and they probably don't wanna deal with a bunch of people telling them their flight models are "historically inaccurate". TBH i dont really care too much if the flight models are inaccurate as long as they fit well in the game, but the lack of good resources for determining how well one plane flies against another is pretty frustrating, so i'm hoping i can help fix that a bit.
Question, will you give specific jet aircraft reviews, I know props have the highest skill cap in the game but I would love your skills put to the test at 8.3!
@lukeskywalket2894 as far as I'm aware, noones made them. I'm working on a method of making them at the moment so once I get it presentable I'll be sharing them and also how I make them
It is potentially possible to have an aircraft which can sustain turns at corner speed or even needs to back off on the throttle or spiral climb. Consider a rocket sailplane with a TWR of 0.5 and an L/D at corner speed of 15, capable of pulling 5 G? This plane cannot actually exert more than 0.333 G of deceleration from drag, yet exerts 0.5 of thrust, so will continue accelerating despite being at its optimal turn rate.
Does the community not have access to War Thunder’s flight equation(s)? I thought it’d be pretty simple to get all of an airplane’s performance metrics purely by all of the flight model data in the datamine
@Iden_in_the_Rain no, gaijins base physics engine in dagor is open source and a lot of the pieces to flight model stuff are there, but we don't have a full picture yet. Their aero physics model is surprisingly sophisticated, though there are a lot of weird spaghetti pieces that are thrown in that make it kinda hard to deconstruct
how do you account for altitude and energy lost or gained in postive or negative verticle manuvers. also i didnt understand how you got 290 km/h as the optimal climb speed. was there a visual clue i missed or is there more to it?
@@piedpiper4450 i didn't do a great job of explaining specific excess power and the energy aspect of it. At the corner speed, turning causes a lot of drag, loses you a lot of energy. Your plane has both kinetic and potential energy, and so you can choose to lose kinetic energy only while maintaining potential by doing a horizontal turn and maintaining altitude, or you can maintain kinetic energy (speed) and lose potential by diving in the turn. The optimal climb speed of 290kph is specific to the p51d5 and is something I tested myself (as well as all the other things shown in the example graph), and ill get to how you can find those in my later videos
You are talking about turn rates and all but yet you do not understand statcards. This raises some questions... Look buddy you are describing tools but yet you fail to paint the whole picture of situation...
@josippetkovic389 statcards are borderline useless. If they're altitude specific then they're still borderline useless. Idk what you think the utility of them is
@@josippetkovic389 well you can choose to either explain what you think i got wrong, or you could keep on pretending like you're some wizard in some high tower guarding the secrets to the universe
@@CatWerfer Your entire video is irrelevant to how WarThunder plays. Diagrams won't help neither you or anybody else. Only substance that your video has is to go in game and test things out yourself. You are just confusing players lol. Statcard gives you "maximum normal" limits for a plane. There is no way to represent entire performance envelope of a plane in a statcard so think of it as a snapshot.
Whats your level of education? where did you go to college? Why are you so smart? Your videos amaze me... will I ever use this info?.... no.... but I still love everyone of your videos, I just love watching your intelligence....
This is a setup, i know there's a lot of info here that seems kinda useless at the moment, but using this kind of graph we can show in what kind of fight certain planes do better than others. I'm not here to sound like im intelligent or anything, but my goal here is to try and explain stuff that might sound complicated in a way that anyone can use and understand, so hopefully this came off as a "wow this is some cool new stuff i've never heard about that's interesting and is explaining it well" and not "wow this guy is talking about stuff i can't understand"
Oh and for education i'm doing mechanical engineering undergraduate right now. though this isnt stuff i've learnt from there, this is just stuff i got interested in and wanted to find stuff about.
@@CatWerfer I didn't mean to sound insulting, I was just saying That when it comes to using a plane in the most effective manner it comes down to experience and just having a feeling for the fight and what to do, ya know?
@SHEEPS_123 I know you didn't mean any harm with the comment, and I'm happy you think I'm smart! I just want others to be able to learn and get smart together so I was hoping I did a good job of explaining something that might have come off as complicated. Do you think I did a good job of that?
![True Size of a Cadian Regiment [999.M41] 3D Documentary](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0Vrnn2uOj6w/mqdefault.jpg)
I know how much yall like whiteboard thunder so strap yourselves in and get ready for a 3-part special of your boy talking over a slideshow for 30 minutes
I think that mk9 is experienced player, you can see him pre-flare to avoid being locked by IR missile at 0:34
lmaooooooo preflaring ain't gon do anything against my F8's aim9m
that pilot is the reason why the lfmk9 is still 5.7
HItting "to battle" in the LF Mk9 is the equivalent to hitting the win button in war thunder
I don't see why the LF should go to 6.0
The re 2005 serie 0 is lf mk9 but worse and its 6.0 lol
@@kennedy-uz4wb massive understatement, the 2005 has F Mk IX (4.3) performance minus the overheat
@@jaiell2049 besides it having unmatched climb rate, turning like a zero, being nearly impossible to stall out, and having good guns? yeah you're right, it should skip 6.0 and go directly to 6.3/6.7
Close enough, welcome back Adam the Enginerd!
Lol i'm no identity thief, adam is still pretty active on his discord server
No he isn't, that's a bot program he coded to take his place in his absence
@jaiell2049 hmmm there may be merit to your theory, he does seem to play civ 6 an abnormal amount....
maththunder, keep up the incredible quality . I'm on the verge of another WT addiction season.
I dont wanna enable your addiction lmao...
thanks for the complement!
@@CatWerfer Trying my best not to fall, dont feel discouraged. The physics aspect is quite academic so people learn something. You make me remember AdamTheEnginerd with the climb stuff
Everybody gangsta untill 109K4 switched to sim contorl in a turn fight
FR tho the 109s get gimped so hard by the instructor
@@CatWerfer Can confirm...
@@CatWerfer is there any reason why the instructor completely spaz out when I try to do a hammerhead move?
@@bassbusterx it depends on the plane, some are more stable in a stall than others. if you do it right tho most planes don't have that much of an issue
As a mechanical engineer, easy. But as a terrible gamer, yeah no I still can't hit anything.
me fr 😭
Average knowledge base of an enemy player I run into at 4.0:
some people at 4.0 are kinda cracked ngl (usually not US mains tho lol)
I've recently learned how to make SEP over airspeed charts through WTRTI's inbuilt graph tool to figure out best climb speeds, making EM graphs would be a fantastic addition to my arsenal!
Oh sweet, knowledge no longer beyond my comprehension.
The power of 150octane,
in the palm of my hand...
(hopefully i explain it well enough that you know what's going on)
One problem I saw with the EM diagram you showed is that they don't seem to account for the controls locking up.
Sure, theoretically the P-51 has a corner speed of 560 km/h and pulls 11.2 Gs. But this is only if the controls don't lock up. Datamines show us that the elevator of the P-51 starts getting weaker above 500 km/h (the "ElevatorsEffectiveSpeed" value).
This is particularly prevalent in aircraft like the LaGG-3s and La-5s which compress extremely hard.
Additionally, it doesn't account for flaps. Some planes have flaps that actually improve turn rate (J2Ms).
The p51d has a relatively "soft" control surface lockup that's only really apparent near rip speed. If i hadn't accounted for it, the pink line would not curve down at high speed.
Flaps change the entire structure of the em plot, I mentioned it but maybe you missed it. Aircraft with flaps down settings would need a separate plot.
this is a lot of useful info for newer players that have little experience that would take a lot of time to learn through just playing the game and not everyone would be capable of gaining this info through playing as there is a lot going on when you are in a dog fight and many people cant keep track of their speed alt throttle how much ammo you have along with tracking one or more enemies at the same time so this graph is a treasure trove that if you learn how to read it and utilize it will give you a huge advantage over many that play the game because you can go into fights that would normally seem unwinnable if you have a strategy on how to play to your advantage and the opponents disadvantage an example would be with the graph shown the p51 if you have to take a turn fight against some one you want to do it in a downward spiral at close to your max flat speed because you can maintain your max turn rate only at a high speed and almost always avoid an upward spiral because the p51 is gonna lose that fight most of the time but to get the most out of graphs like these you really need to also look at the graph for what ever you are fighting and form a strategy for engagements where you can take the fight to where they are weaker than you it wont always be where your plane preforms best but where your opponent is considerably worse than you
yep! I'll be getting into how to compare plots in the next set of videos
You legend. I learned about EM diagrams a few years ago, but the maths and Excel plotting eluded me. Looking forward to the next video on how to make these 😁
ay nice! this video was mostly to explain how the diagrams work for people who haven't seen them before but i guess you're already ahead
@@CatWerfer by a whisker... Maybe.
as a mech Eng and one of the top D5 pilots in the game, this video and this chart has me frothing at the mouth
@@zedoktor979 ..in a good way?
Very nice explanation! I could never understand how to read those diagrams tbh. I'm looking forward to the creation video. I don't play WT so but I'll prolly end up using this in my SimplePlanes designs.
Glad you found it informative! I'm working on that video right now so look forward to it :)
That LF IX played it so bad, another thing to consider in a dogfight is the pilot, probably the most important factor in a fight
Lf probably could've pulled off for another pass or committed to the deceleration lol
@@CatWerfer or literally just turn left or right and keep turning
Yeah all he had to do was not keep turning in front of the Bearcat and he failed lol
i mean maybe he was out of ammo and just wanted to show off some defensive flying before he died lol. He did jink enough to give me a hard time hitting him (skill issue on my end lmao)
cool vid. very informative
stay tuned for parts 2 and 3 where the informative part becomes actually useful lol
It should be noted this is a relatively modern concept developed in conjunction with 4th gen jets. It's difficult to get accurate EM graphs of WW2 aircraft or early jets, as they have to be inferred from old flight test data with dubious accuracy
oh baby wait til the next video and see what we got to show you
Is computational fluid dynamics not good enough or is it too expensive to run for a game?
I'm not thinking about running it in real time. I'm thinking about Gaijin running it to get performance data to then plop into an easy to compute model.
trying to analytically deconstruct their physics engine has some... issues. I'll go over them when I get to generating the plots
Damn this would be nice to have instead of the stat card. Still not perfect but waaay better. Maybe one day!
@@conehed1138 I'm working on it, stay tuned for parts 2 and 3
They plan to downtier the F8F-1 to 4.7^^
Yeah... it'll still fight LF Mk9s in a full uptier tho
@@CatWerfer ya but its a 6.3 platform at 4.7...
@@SHEEPS_123 its flight model is a complete mess and there are other planes that do what it does much better at lower brs no less
@@ozan1234561 there arent. there literally no planes with its performace at a lower br. it has 2900hp, its climb rate is insane for 5.0 yet alone 4.7. Bad MER can be a good thing, just work around it.
@@ushikiii pyörremyrsky, j2m and spitfires at its br climb better or on par, have better guns and turn much better
Edit: forgot yak-3s that just run circles around it at every altitude
Fantastic stuff. Wish Gaijin'd contract with you to have the game UI spit these exact sort of plots out (conveniently, they could be 3D) except we live in a world where the UI numbers for turn rate are literally just wrong so, lol.
my suspicion is that gaijin doesn't really want people to have access to this kind of information. I remember when they first added missiles and radars and flares and gaijin still doesn't have an official video on how irccm missiles work and how to dodge them, leaving it up to dataminers to figure it out and youtubers to publicise it.
the reason they'd want to do this is if they had officially endorsed data plots on how aircraft fly in game, their flight models would be liable to scrutiny, and they probably don't wanna deal with a bunch of people telling them their flight models are "historically inaccurate".
TBH i dont really care too much if the flight models are inaccurate as long as they fit well in the game, but the lack of good resources for determining how well one plane flies against another is pretty frustrating, so i'm hoping i can help fix that a bit.
Question, will you give specific jet aircraft reviews, I know props have the highest skill cap in the game but I would love your skills put to the test at 8.3!
Is there a place I can find these graphs outside the video? Is there a forum post or spreadsheet with the graphs for different aircraft?
@lukeskywalket2894 as far as I'm aware, noones made them. I'm working on a method of making them at the moment so once I get it presentable I'll be sharing them and also how I make them
It is potentially possible to have an aircraft which can sustain turns at corner speed or even needs to back off on the throttle or spiral climb. Consider a rocket sailplane with a TWR of 0.5 and an L/D at corner speed of 15, capable of pulling 5 G? This plane cannot actually exert more than 0.333 G of deceleration from drag, yet exerts 0.5 of thrust, so will continue accelerating despite being at its optimal turn rate.
Prime example of this is the BI, if you don't ease up on the throttle you will turn into a lawn dart
Does the community not have access to War Thunder’s flight equation(s)? I thought it’d be pretty simple to get all of an airplane’s performance metrics purely by all of the flight model data in the datamine
@Iden_in_the_Rain no, gaijins base physics engine in dagor is open source and a lot of the pieces to flight model stuff are there, but we don't have a full picture yet. Their aero physics model is surprisingly sophisticated, though there are a lot of weird spaghetti pieces that are thrown in that make it kinda hard to deconstruct
Is this the guy that tune his engine midfight? I remember your Yak 9 VK107 vids
uhh i think you have the wrong guy lol.
I neither use manual engine controls, nor have the yak9 vk
@@CatWerfer found him, it was Adam514, too bad the guy went MIA, but you got the same format though, imma learn from you from now on
oh yeah he's still active on his discord but he doesn't do war thunder anymore
Hell yeah, Maths Thunder
There was surprisingly little math in this video (relative to my other ones)
@@CatWerfer That's true
can we have a full guide on how to play air rb, i keep suffering on my p-38e and constantly dying to japanese planes and bf 109's
@@youre5066 sure! I was planning on doing one eventually, ill bump it up on the priorities list
@@CatWerfer thats actually swag, but take ur time pretty please
don't burn out! and good luck funny war thunder nerd man on my monitor. :)
how do you account for altitude and energy lost or gained in postive or negative verticle manuvers. also i didnt understand how you got 290 km/h as the optimal climb speed. was there a visual clue i missed or is there more to it?
@@piedpiper4450 i didn't do a great job of explaining specific excess power and the energy aspect of it. At the corner speed, turning causes a lot of drag, loses you a lot of energy. Your plane has both kinetic and potential energy, and so you can choose to lose kinetic energy only while maintaining potential by doing a horizontal turn and maintaining altitude, or you can maintain kinetic energy (speed) and lose potential by diving in the turn.
The optimal climb speed of 290kph is specific to the p51d5 and is something I tested myself (as well as all the other things shown in the example graph), and ill get to how you can find those in my later videos
That aim was painful, still great video tho
lol maybe i should change up my convergence.... i suck at aiming but i think im pretty decent with positioning
@@CatWerfer You are right, but i think 600m convergence still great for long/medium shots.
@@Lucas69FG 600 is what I use
E is stored in the balls
Mark E plier
You are talking about turn rates and all but yet you do not understand statcards. This raises some questions...
Look buddy you are describing tools but yet you fail to paint the whole picture of situation...
@josippetkovic389 statcards are borderline useless. If they're altitude specific then they're still borderline useless. Idk what you think the utility of them is
@@CatWerfer So you don't understand
@@josippetkovic389 well you can choose to either explain what you think i got wrong, or you could keep on pretending like you're some wizard in some high tower guarding the secrets to the universe
@@CatWerfer Your entire video is irrelevant to how WarThunder plays. Diagrams won't help neither you or anybody else. Only substance that your video has is to go in game and test things out yourself.
You are just confusing players lol.
Statcard gives you "maximum normal" limits for a plane. There is no way to represent entire performance envelope of a plane in a statcard so think of it as a snapshot.
@@josippetkovic389 imagine substantiating your arguments with "proof" or "evidence", couldn't be me
Whats your level of education? where did you go to college? Why are you so smart?
Your videos amaze me... will I ever use this info?.... no.... but I still love everyone of your videos, I just love watching your intelligence....
This is a setup, i know there's a lot of info here that seems kinda useless at the moment, but using this kind of graph we can show in what kind of fight certain planes do better than others.
I'm not here to sound like im intelligent or anything, but my goal here is to try and explain stuff that might sound complicated in a way that anyone can use and understand, so hopefully this came off as a "wow this is some cool new stuff i've never heard about that's interesting and is explaining it well" and not "wow this guy is talking about stuff i can't understand"
Oh and for education i'm doing mechanical engineering undergraduate right now. though this isnt stuff i've learnt from there, this is just stuff i got interested in and wanted to find stuff about.
@@CatWerfer I didn't mean to sound insulting, I was just saying That when it comes to using a plane in the most effective manner it comes down to experience and just having a feeling for the fight and what to do, ya know?
@SHEEPS_123 I know you didn't mean any harm with the comment, and I'm happy you think I'm smart! I just want others to be able to learn and get smart together so I was hoping I did a good job of explaining something that might have come off as complicated. Do you think I did a good job of that?
@@CatWerfer yes absolutely, your content actually reminds me of real engineering or vertasium if you know those channels