Actually we were witnessing a miracle: Moviestar did something smart and they were guessing:"O.K. We can not drop Roglic. At least net yet. So we are working with him to improve our position on GC and we wait for an opportunity to attack him during the later stages of the Vuelta. Until then, we are trying to drop out every other potential threat for our two remaining GC contenders. If we can not drop Roglic, we want to have two riders on the podium. If we can drop Roglic at some stage, that is a bonus." They took the opportunity and that was a good decision.
He closed it because of his insane acceleration and sprint. If immediately another attack followed, Rog would be on his limits but everyone got scared after seeing Roglic do that.
@@РуменДоспатлиев Everyone else from the chasing group had also just made a big effort to try stay with Roglic, or there was Yates and Lopez who had just attacked. I agree though that if Bernal had attacked over the top, Roglic would have had some problems.
It’s a pleasure to listen to your Australian accent turn in to great pronunciation of European places and names. Obviously you are fluent in more than English, well done.
Great Race by Caruso, Attacked at the perfect moment knowing that the last descend is technical where he as a solo rider would actually gain time over the peloton. Just smart.
It was absolutely a great decision and a fantastic effort for Caruso to go when he did - all credit to him. However, if the Ineos effort had not run out of gas before the last climb,. he probably would not have made it to the line first.
Exciting final. Mas looking really strong, but I think he was glad Roglic worked with him. He did set a hard pace, but he was feeling it as well. Think Roglic looked better as they went on, but it was a hard pace for sure.
This is the advantage of being a strong time trial as a GC rider. Roglic can gain time on all these guys in the TT, he doesn’t have to create action like they do. The fact that he can put punch them makes it worse since he can also rely on time bonuses by out sprinting them. Of course this is really just to say he’s an all round better rider than the rest of the guys in the gc field. Regardless of their strategy and teammates, Roglic is usually going to beat them if he stays upright.
Your enunciation is also much crisper and clearer lately. Fun to listen to. Earlier in the year, I couldn't parse your strings of speed-reading sentences without punctuation. Now you're clear as a bell. That's not easy to accomplish. Bravo.
Since Portal’s very sad and early passing Ineos have been tactically pretty ropey. They’ve basically ridden every race like they have the strongest rider and when they don’t it looks awful. Today was an example of their old style of riding not working and them having no real idea what plan b looks like.
I think team’s budgets have finally caught up to what Sky/Ineos has. The key to winning a gt these days is to have loads of superdomestiques who could get top 10 in their own right while having one clear cut leader. Ineos’s problem might be that they have too much talent and aren’t able to tell the guys that they’re gonna be domestiques
@@first_namelast_name5139 i think its much simpler than that. if you pace hard to make your competitors suffer, you only gain something if your leader suffers less than theirs. and that's the ineos strategy. having super doms is still valuable, especially for chasing down attacks, or maintaining gaps in valley's between climbs, but thats not how ineos uses them.
What exactly do you think their old style is? In all their years of dominating with Froome, I never saw Porte/Landa/Thomas/Poels/Ellisonde/etc attack. They'd just park their super doms on the front at 6W/kg, and then Froome would attack in the last 1 or 2km. Yates attacking with 10km would be unheard of in the old style you refer to.
@@GDF07 Rafael Majka with 6 GT Top 10? David de la Cruz with 2 GT Top 10? Brandon McNulty...and next year George Bennett...Marc Soler...Jaoa Almeida...
Interesting to talk about Ineos tactics. I feel they lack real tactics/strategies since Nicolas Portal died. On the TDF it was quite pathetic sometimes, and now it seems they make a fool of themselves again on the Vuelta.
A deeper discussion on “multiple team leader” tactics would be interesting. I’m sometimes lost on what’s the optimal use of Carapaz-Yates-Bernal or Valverde-Mas-MAL (for instance).
I reckon Moviestar just started to listen regularly to the LR podcast and highlights and figured a great tactic for their homerace. Dropping seasons 1 & 2 of their documentary solely for the purpose to confuse their competitors.
Yates had to attack. What alternative strategy did Ineos have ? ride conservatively and hope not to lose further time to Roglic and red jersey ? Yates went out to see if he could crack Roglic on the biggest climbing stage in the Vuelta and claw back some time but unfortunately Bernal could not come to the party. if the aim is to win the Vuelta then Ineos strategy today was the right strategy but they couldn't execute it because Roglic had them covered and Bernal does not have the legs to go with Roglic.
Easy to have a go at Ineos but at least they tried something. Astana did sod all today and Vlasov bombed but get half the heat. At least Ineos are trying to race.
The tactics were fine today. It is just that nobody had the brute wkg that Roglic had. He is in another level compared to the rest. Both Roglic and Pog look like hyper responders to whatever new product is being given to them. Roglics brachioradialis looks so pumped. Everyone elses looks so depleted. His head sits so high on his shoulders. Zero fatigue compared to Egan who also thrives on hot weather and media pressure.
Hey mate! Awesome as always!! A theme could be the goals, ambitions and stress in the continental teams in each stage such as Caja Rural, Euskadi and Burgos. I know several of the riders and theirs is a tough life!
Excellent summary and analysis as always. One of the things you could report on is the issue of accidents and rider safety. It seems to be a hot potato on this tour, as it was on the TDF. It seems most fans and pro cyclists accept it as part of pro cycling, but maybe it's indicative of something not right within the sport. For example, the crash of Alejandro Valverde could have been fatal so why are road surfaces not repaired or at least potholes highlighted with a luminous paint, for example. As it's a heat wave in Spain at the moment, it would interesting to do a feature on hiw riders manage core temperature and avoid heat exhaustion.
Cycling just doesnt have enough money to fix this and they are driving sooooo far and on different roads that its basically impossible to fix it you would have to basically do a whole new road network and redo it every year And they dont have enough money cause they would have to put barriers all the way of every stage
@@philipmeisterl surely the country hosting the event could send up the local cycling clubs to survey with a tin of luminous spray paint a few days before the race. Just a suggestion, it wouldn't cost very much to do.
@@markdonovan1540 On the TDF they have a team that repaint all the d*cks painted on the road into owls (yeah I'm not talking about ducks becoming owls ;)), so this could definitely be handled by the organisation of the Vuelta.
I think the Ineos tactics are designed to drop Roglic's team and then attack him, but they are overestimating their riders, especially Bernal, and they are not taking Moviestar seriously enough. I think previously in the Sky years they got too much credit as it was easy to look good when you have the best 3 GC riders in the race. Now they're looking pretty average and it's funny to see them still thinking they're the big dog, but it's more like a chihuahua yapping at a rottweiler who's not bothered.
@@debcress6718 Maybe he ist in the Giro form, but in this Giro there wasn´t much competition...Caruso was second...Vlasow was fourth...Bardet was seventh...all of them much weaker in this Vuelta because of much more competition by Jumbo/Roglic and Movistar/Mas/Lopez...even Bahrain with a much stronger Team than in the Giro
What's the deal with Carapaz. Is he just out of form or just going through the motions? He doesn't seem to be doing much, or actually helping Bernal or Yates. Seems to just be doing his own thing with no mission or intent.
@@grey_fox7 i imagine because a tired carapaz is still better than your average domestique. helping the team doesnt just mean attacking the leader on the big climbs. there is all sorts of work going on that you wont be seeing, plus he might be hoping for a stage win further down the line if he has a good day
@@chamonixskibum yeah, I just haven't seen him do much domestique work though. I've hardly seen him doing a good pull, I almost never see him in front of Bernal or Yates, so he's not protecting them much. He just seems out there on his own without a solid strategy to assist the team.
I’m no expert but if you’re not going for the stage win and you have 3 potential GC riders, why instead of pacing the peloton and dragging Roglic up the mountains all day, did they not take turns attacking until either one sticks or Roglic tires out from chasing them down and then pick up the pace? At this point it’s pretty clear they’re not going to wear him out by simply setting a high tempo on the last climb of the day
The multiple attack strategy is good, the choice of who makes those attacks is the problem. At the moment, it looks like Yates is the strongest, then Bernal, then Carapaz (yesterday at least). So your best chance of winning is probably with Yates. But for some reason, Yates attacked first, Bernal pulled for Carapaz at some point, Carapaz did the weakest attack ever half way up the climb when he was already looking cooked, Yates dropped Bernal and had to wait for him by the looks of things, it's just a mess. It would make more sense if Carapaz attacked first at the base before he tired himself out on the climb. He also has the best chance of not being marked as closely seen as he's the lowest on GC and might actually be able to get a gap. Hopefully that attack starts to isolate Roglic and force him to work himself. Then attack with Bernal to keep the pressure on, and then hopefully put in a killer blow with your strongest rider - Yates. Rinse and repeat. Putting in a big attack with your strongest rider first when Roglic is the freshest and has the most team mates makes no sense seen as the first attack is the least likely to stick but you've fatigued your #1 rider.
@@GDF07 Bernal and Carapaz simply wouldn't have been able to get seperation yesterday. Bernal couldn't even try to lift his pace, and when Caparaz tried Lopez just moved onto his wheel like it was just a move to pace and then Carapaz blew up.
Tbh i just think Ineos kep trying to attack and attack to see if Roglic / Movistar dropped or got into difficulty irrelevant of how Bernal was actually doing which was the problem.
@@keirfarnum6811 offcourse that happens.. and thats why their tactic didn’t work.. the tactic they tried to use only works if you are the strongest on the last climb.. well its obvious by now, they (Ineos) are far from the strongest riders
As I watched the race I though, “I can’t wait to hear LR torch Ineos for torching themselves” 🤣 I’ve never raced and as I watch it I asked myself WTH are they doing??
It's a question of confidence and legs. Ineos have got to try something. If Yates was on a good day and got to about a minute forcing Roglic to chase with Bernal and Carapaz comfortably marking until the last km followed by some attacks, you would be giving them a verbal slap on the back. When reality is that all 3 of your main riders are not at that level, then you look a bit foolish.
I just finished Lora Klinc's book on the 2019 Vuelta, and even though she obviously takes sides, it seems clear that Roglic is more instinctual racer than we are used to seeing in top riders. I don't have a justification for Kuss following the Yate's attack, but I do think that it provided Roglic with another flag to chase. He does seem to do better and remain calmer with team mates around him or in sight, but also he seems to want a target too.
Kuss was actually doing pretty good job marking Yates, making Yates to crack,and preventing those initial chasing group to break loose (by sitting on Yates' and Mas' wheel) until Roglic bridge up the gap. That's why he didn't attack beyond Mas.
How do you beat Roglic tho? Surely, you've got team up on him and repeatedly attack him. Ineos rode hard and then Yates attacked him twice without success but at least they tried. A better tactic might have been for Yates to attack followed by either Bernal/Carapaz sitting on Roglic's wheel, ready to then attack over the top, once Roglic bridged the gap, but neither rider were strong enough to do that. Movistar tactically played it safer/smarter by having Lopez go with Yates and Mas with Roglic. It would've been interesting to see Mas attack Roglic once they bridged back to Yates but it seemed Roglic was too strong and it was more sensible to wait for another day. But obviously, the number of other days is finite. It seems very, very likely that Roglic will win regardless but Mas riding for 2nd place on GC is gonna make it easier for him.
Incomparable, and Roglic rode the World championship road race and LBL between the tour de France 2020 and La Vuelta 2020 and still won la Vuelta. He was amazing!
Yates is obvs very strong but always seems overgeared to me. It serves him well in an initial attack if he can then maintain it. However, if caught, everyone else seems to be able to spin away more easily while his “churning” cannot respond.
Ineos appear to have not noticed that all the other big teams have upped their game considerably, and that they do not have the dominant GC rider anymore. Bernal and Carapaz also have a full grand tour in their legs, and Roglic is too good for them at the moment.
@@beaufortdalpage186 I think the expectations are too great as well. They have a grand tour win and several stages, a couple of smaller tours GC and a clutch of stages in other events. Unfortunately with their budget, it could be seen as lacking.
Yates, messed it up. He thinks he want keep up the the fight in the high mountains, and decided to break up the team. Time will prove he doesn't have what it takes to win La Vuelta...
I disagree. Mas shouldn’t work for Roglic when he has Lopez behind. Lopez shouldn’t work for Haig & Yates when he has Mas in front. Haig shouldn’t work with Mader behind and Caruso in front. Yates shouldn’t work with Bernal behind, but we’re out of riders, someone has to pull, and he’s the only one without a teammate in front of him. Perfect tactics: Roglic pulls Mas Yates pulls Haig & Lopez Ciccone pulls Bernal & Mader
Really well done it makes you think if they had executed this move, without the early pacing too against the new olympic tt champ! ,with yates being their best chance for stage winning counter punch move on steep mountain and he looked great. Thats the only way they are getting time on roglic imo,, kudos for pointing out how smart enric mas was not to try to follow roglic wheel that was a GREAT point really well done, and shows how little that early tempo worked on primoz. Hes a thicker guy, again olympic tt champ on rolling course. the more times you can disrupt his rhythm the better for the rest. On a mountain he is riding his tempo which is usually high to the top to minimize attacks , and on his day has that seated surge that nobody can follow. Sky did it for years with froome.....I know they have changes to their roster and style but it would suit what LR is pointing out. Agree absolutely Mas rides even if roglic didn't help, and he did, mas still rides he is shaping the race podium potentially and putting time into every other competitor and roglic even looked on his limit otherwise, he as one of worlds best puncheurs would never leave it that late to move for the line. I hope to see lopez attack on a stage like 14 suits him on paper let mas sit on to counter if brought back and race gets tense, but thats when I remember there's several teams here and bahrain goes after superman:) I like Haig too its a race and a good one..... they all need time and and lots of it before stage 21. Really solid analysis LR
Yates should not be pacing Bernal, but Bernal had no business trying to close gaps. They are both worth more when a threat on their own. Neither should sacrifice for the other if they want first place. Movistar should not be working with Roglic ever either if they too want anything more than podium. I suspect they know they can't do better and will continue the same. As the race is going tactically it's heading for another fight for second/third while the leader only gets further ahead.
Maybe Carapaz is too worn out (from recent racing) to attack on behalf of Bernal and Yates, and will only expose himself and therefore the team? I think Ineos need to race like the 4th best team and use their brains more.
@@mmmbass6068 If they do anything but attack they are racing for second or third. MoviStar will not do work for them and Jumbo can happily sit out of working either. They can't race like the 4th best team because they aren't and nobody sees them as such to give them opportunities for it. The issue is they are attacking a stronger leader with weaker ones while the third best team is attacking them as well.
It’s not like there is anything huge between the top 10 and we have seen how riders like Bernal can switch it on later in a tour. It’s good to see Caruso up there and Haig but so far, apart from Kus burning out Roglic looks safe.
I think that Bernal would actually do better if they had a proper mountain train like in the Froome days and just drilled it up the climbs at a constant pace rather than attack after attack on the climbs like they're currently doing. Bernal seems to struggle with the surges of the constant attack approach they have now, but can probably push big 20 or 30 minute numbers if he doesn't have to surge. (In case you missed it, they haven't been doing their old mountain train tactics like in the Froome days and have been using their super doms as attackers rather than telling Yates/Carapaz to set a high tempo for as long as they can from the base to prevent attacks, and then only attacking with Bernal at the very end)
Roglic is on form, trying to keep up with him his probably something only Podgecar can do, so Moviestar did great! Don't understand Kuss, he'll learn, Roglic will probably talk to him a bit
Mate, the discussion of tactics just sets this channel apart. No one asks the questions like WTF ineos! They all just report the facts. Let's get some good subjective analysis!
Why not let Yates attack early and try something? He needs big stuff to happen with his deficit and if you catch Roglic out on a bad day early this is like christmas coming very early. What I didn't like at all Yates attacking after knowing Bernal is having the bad day out of the favorits. I mean he is the best GC rider on that team, even if they want to ride it for Yates you want Bernal up there as well and they totally blew that. You can not be the one pacing there. Sit in and counter if you think you have the move but anything else is bush league tactics.
better to let Carapaz attack, force other teams to ride (or let Carapaz take time back if they don't) and then attack with Yates or Bernal after Carapaz is taken back/has a decent lead. The way they rode now, Carapaz is essentially useless, he did nothing at all.
@@nickmullen2830 And then a second time, which this post is about. That was the dumb mistake I was talking about. Edit: If you find out your GC contending teammate is the one in the hurt box you don't go for crazy attacks anymore. You let other people do their move and if you're the crazy guy you go over the top after there move. Nothing else.
@@MDP1702 Well Carapaz was pretty done immediately so, I don't know if he had a strong attack in him at all. This would be the best option if it was an option. Maybe Yates attacked regardless then I also wouldn't like that move. But considering how Carapaz looked, I can't critizes them without being in their car.
@@portrunner6931 Carapaz tried an attack after Yates first attack if I remember correctly, however at that point Yates first attack already sapped his energy. It would be better if he had attacked first, when he didn't had to waste so much energy just remaining in that group when Yates attacked. Yes, Carapaz's attack would likely not get him anything in the end, but it would have allowed Ineos to sit in everyones wheel while other teams had to chase after him. Even if Carapaz's attack doesn't do anything, it wouldn't be worse than the outcome today (regarding Carapaz's contribution), and with a bit of luck it would have done more.
Not sure what INEOS would have gained have gained by having Carapaz attack, who was going to worry about chasing him down? I suppose Yates might have then bridged across but has Carapaz got the legs to work with Yates at that point,? At some point you have to test the legs of the other riders. At least Yates had a go, it didn't come off but that's sport.
sky used to win because they had far more money than anyone else. they weren’t smarter. they just bought the best riders, coaches, facilities, & support staff. that no longer obtains. they can’t buy victories like they used to.
Not really, they actually were smarter, even this year in the beginning of the season. Think Giro and the one week races. But the mess they show here and even at the tour is embarrassing.
The confidence in couch DS-ing is getting ridiculous. Attacking with your top rider (Yates) while Roglic still respected Bernal most is the best move you can do. No tactics on the last climb can help if your best rider is a class below Roglic (and Mas). Suggesting the attack of lacklustre Carapaz that everyone knows is going nowhere is really not a good take. Kuss did tactically the right thing (that was the plan) but did not really have the legs to provoke Lopez/Mas. Ineos was right to put pressure on Jumbo team on the long climb but was just not successful. The problem is they didn't want to risk with surprise long attack by Yates (who could potentially bridge 1:30 to Caruso but would then not get any help) bc Movistar/Bahrain would chase him down. In short: its not easy to play tactics if your guys dont have the legs.. In hindsight - the only tactics that could potentially bring better result to Ineos today would be playing defense..
@@LanterneRougeCycling No matter what Yates did today he would lose time on Roglič and Mas. The legs were pretty clear and he rode the climb like he does most of the time - didnt see any burning himself - just your typical Yates climbing and losing against top guys. While first very early attack was imo legitimate surprise attack knowing Roglič wont follow - i do agree all later attacks were double counter productive..
@@LanterneRougeCycling As another UA-cam channel says "nails in the legs." Yates, after the decision was made to leave Bernal did not lose too much time to Mas and Roglic, he may well have been able to hang with them had he not burned himself out a few times (with 8.7 to go!) earlier. It seems there is a fair bit of wishful thinking (and maybe selfishness from Carapaz) is trending for Ineos.
This critique of Ineos is a little harsh: they made a huge effort to shake things up and test the GC standings. It didn’t work out so well for them (though it was far from disastrous for Bernal and Yates) - but I’d actually give them a lot of credit for trying to shake it up.
Egan had covid 19 after the giro and he was not ready for la vuelta, Carapaz is tire from the olimpics and the tour the France and I do not understand why Bernal is always in front of Roglic should be the other way around
was waiting for the lanterne rouge highlights, desperately trying not to click on the gcn vid lol
I'm kind of shocked how much better LR is than the ordinarily high quality GCN content. Their content is just not very good.
@@blue-pi2kt completely agree. But I think they aim for the more casual viewer.
I always watch GCN highlights + the LR Podcast & then the LR highlights, makes for an enjoable 3 vids each day lol
Bro exactly
I do the same
Actually we were witnessing a miracle: Moviestar did something smart and they were guessing:"O.K. We can not drop Roglic. At least net yet. So we are working with him to improve our position on GC and we wait for an opportunity to attack him during the later stages of the Vuelta. Until then, we are trying to drop out every other potential threat for our two remaining GC contenders. If we can not drop Roglic, we want to have two riders on the podium. If we can drop Roglic at some stage, that is a bonus." They took the opportunity and that was a good decision.
Mas winning a Grand Tour would truly be something
@ Movistar in general!
Good insight
@ i'd love to see it
Brilliant analysis mate
"Roglic closing a 50 meter gap in 20 meters..." -- classic.
The way Roglic closed the gap to Yates was ridiculous
Yeah I thought that just changed gear and zipped up the hill like it was flat the closing speed was crazy.
He's "built different" 🤣
@@sdrubaa he's "geared" different
He closed it because of his insane acceleration and sprint. If immediately another attack followed, Rog would be on his limits but everyone got scared after seeing Roglic do that.
@@РуменДоспатлиев Everyone else from the chasing group had also just made a big effort to try stay with Roglic, or there was Yates and Lopez who had just attacked. I agree though that if Bernal had attacked over the top, Roglic would have had some problems.
INEOS do a perfect impersonation of Movistar...
It’s a pleasure to listen to your Australian accent turn in to great pronunciation of European places and names. Obviously you are fluent in more than English, well done.
Wholesome comment.
Not many Aussies are fluent in English, so props for that alone 😉
living in Andorra - sure spanish too
It's a very subtle Aussie accent and very nice to listen to.I like accents though :)
@@chrishampden5261 Not many Brits are fluent in "understandable" English too ;)
Great Race by Caruso, Attacked at the perfect moment knowing that the last descend is technical where he as a solo rider would actually gain time over the peloton. Just smart.
It was absolutely a great decision and a fantastic effort for Caruso to go when he did - all credit to him.
However, if the Ineos effort had not run out of gas before the last climb,. he probably would not have made it to the line first.
Lets go Caruso! Great to see him follow-up on his performance in the Giro
2:21 top 5 rappers eminem was afraid to diss
Exciting final. Mas looking really strong, but I think he was glad Roglic worked with him. He did set a hard pace, but he was feeling it as well. Think Roglic looked better as they went on, but it was a hard pace for sure.
It's like Movistar and Ineos layered attacks just serve to tire each other out and build perfect bridges for Roglic to skip back up into to the lead.
This is the advantage of being a strong time trial as a GC rider. Roglic can gain time on all these guys in the TT, he doesn’t have to create action like they do. The fact that he can put punch them makes it worse since he can also rely on time bonuses by out sprinting them.
Of course this is really just to say he’s an all round better rider than the rest of the guys in the gc field. Regardless of their strategy and teammates, Roglic is usually going to beat them if he stays upright.
thank you for the correct use of the possessive apostrophe in the title
Bridging a 50m gap in 20m is quite hard but not for rogla 💪
Looked like he hit overtake button like in F1 :)
Have all the plans you want…..you gotta have the LEGS!
Thoughts on 1 households' dominance at the tour of Norway?( Walls and Hayter are flatmates along with Fred Wright)
best coverage on the whole internet
Great work. Your recaps are getting better and better, more economical. Solid editing. Chapeau.
Your enunciation is also much crisper and clearer lately. Fun to listen to. Earlier in the year, I couldn't parse your strings of speed-reading sentences without punctuation. Now you're clear as a bell. That's not easy to accomplish. Bravo.
Since Portal’s very sad and early passing Ineos have been tactically pretty ropey. They’ve basically ridden every race like they have the strongest rider and when they don’t it looks awful. Today was an example of their old style of riding not working and them having no real idea what plan b looks like.
I think team’s budgets have finally caught up to what Sky/Ineos has. The key to winning a gt these days is to have loads of superdomestiques who could get top 10 in their own right while having one clear cut leader. Ineos’s problem might be that they have too much talent and aren’t able to tell the guys that they’re gonna be domestiques
@@first_namelast_name5139 i think its much simpler than that.
if you pace hard to make your competitors suffer, you only gain something if your leader suffers less than theirs. and that's the ineos strategy.
having super doms is still valuable, especially for chasing down attacks, or maintaining gaps in valley's between climbs, but thats not how ineos uses them.
@@first_namelast_name5139 Who are UAE's domestiques that could get a top 10 on their own?
What exactly do you think their old style is? In all their years of dominating with Froome, I never saw Porte/Landa/Thomas/Poels/Ellisonde/etc attack. They'd just park their super doms on the front at 6W/kg, and then Froome would attack in the last 1 or 2km. Yates attacking with 10km would be unheard of in the old style you refer to.
@@GDF07 Rafael Majka with 6 GT Top 10? David de la Cruz with 2 GT Top 10? Brandon McNulty...and next year George Bennett...Marc Soler...Jaoa Almeida...
Interesting to talk about Ineos tactics. I feel they lack real tactics/strategies since Nicolas Portal died. On the TDF it was quite pathetic sometimes, and now it seems they make a fool of themselves again on the Vuelta.
Let's call it Landa's Paradigm: When he is in good shape, crashes. When he's broken, he doesn't even get a flat.
A deeper discussion on “multiple team leader” tactics would be interesting. I’m sometimes lost on what’s the optimal use of Carapaz-Yates-Bernal or Valverde-Mas-MAL (for instance).
I reckon Moviestar just started to listen regularly to the LR podcast and highlights and figured a great tactic for their homerace. Dropping seasons 1 & 2 of their documentary solely for the purpose to confuse their competitors.
Patxi Vila is directing tactics from the car rather than be only head of performance. Movistar’s improved racing could be down to this change.
Yates had to attack. What alternative strategy did Ineos have ? ride conservatively and hope not to lose further time to Roglic and red jersey ? Yates went out to see if he could crack Roglic on the biggest climbing stage in the Vuelta and claw back some time but unfortunately Bernal could not come to the party. if the aim is to win the Vuelta then Ineos strategy today was the right strategy but they couldn't execute it because Roglic had them covered and Bernal does not have the legs to go with Roglic.
Easy to have a go at Ineos but at least they tried something. Astana did sod all today and Vlasov bombed but get half the heat. At least Ineos are trying to race.
The tactics were fine today. It is just that nobody had the brute wkg that Roglic had. He is in another level compared to the rest. Both Roglic and Pog look like hyper responders to whatever new product is being given to them. Roglics brachioradialis looks so pumped. Everyone elses looks so depleted. His head sits so high on his shoulders. Zero fatigue compared to Egan who also thrives on hot weather and media pressure.
That's because he's riding discs and not rim brakes bro. The rimb brake cartel got demolished.
Good recap as always. Insightful. Thanks!
Tactical perfection from Movistar! Maybe Bala was the only problem they have had all along 😅🤣
Whatever tactics Ineos adopt will look wrong with Roglic in such dominant form!
Great video recaping the stage. Thank you
It would be interesting to understand the differences in course and overall strategy between the giro, vuelta, and tour.
That would be a fascinating study.
Hey mate! Awesome as always!! A theme could be the goals, ambitions and stress in the continental teams in each stage such as Caja Rural, Euskadi and Burgos. I know several of the riders and theirs is a tough life!
I think Roglic and Movistar make a great team!🙃
Excellent summary and analysis as always.
One of the things you could report on is the issue of accidents and rider safety. It seems to be a hot potato on this tour, as it was on the TDF. It seems most fans and pro cyclists accept it as part of pro cycling, but maybe it's indicative of something not right within the sport. For example, the crash of Alejandro Valverde could have been fatal so why are road surfaces not repaired or at least potholes highlighted with a luminous paint, for example.
As it's a heat wave in Spain at the moment, it would interesting to do a feature on hiw riders manage core temperature and avoid heat exhaustion.
Cycling just doesnt have enough money to fix this and they are driving sooooo far and on different roads that its basically impossible to fix it you would have to basically do a whole new road network and redo it every year
And they dont have enough money cause they would have to put barriers all the way of every stage
@@philipmeisterl surely the country hosting the event could send up the local cycling clubs to survey with a tin of luminous spray paint a few days before the race. Just a suggestion, it wouldn't cost very much to do.
@@markdonovan1540 On the TDF they have a team that repaint all the d*cks painted on the road into owls (yeah I'm not talking about ducks becoming owls ;)), so this could definitely be handled by the organisation of the Vuelta.
@@great_live_music 🦉 🦉 🦉 true story?
@@sarahkottke676 Yup. They have a few "designs" to modify things into less dodgey paintings.
I think the Ineos tactics are designed to drop Roglic's team and then attack him, but they are overestimating their riders, especially Bernal, and they are not taking Moviestar seriously enough.
I think previously in the Sky years they got too much credit as it was easy to look good when you have the best 3 GC riders in the race. Now they're looking pretty average and it's funny to see them still thinking they're the big dog, but it's more like a chihuahua yapping at a rottweiler who's not bothered.
It is the result of poor leadership.
interesting! i wonder if bernal is not back to his giro form because of his covid infection!
@@debcress6718 Maybe he ist in the Giro form, but in this Giro there wasn´t much competition...Caruso was second...Vlasow was fourth...Bardet was seventh...all of them much weaker in this Vuelta because of much more competition by Jumbo/Roglic and Movistar/Mas/Lopez...even Bahrain with a much stronger Team than in the Giro
@@debcress6718 I've been saying this since 2020. Bernal is not anywhere near the level of the slovenians.
@@Cyberjack1907 they have a strong lineup with Mark Padun
Roglic seams to be on another level. Can he keep it up?
His form or the bike?
What's the deal with Carapaz. Is he just out of form or just going through the motions? He doesn't seem to be doing much, or actually helping Bernal or Yates. Seems to just be doing his own thing with no mission or intent.
probably exhausted after TDF and then the olympics...
@@chamonixskibum so why's he here then if he doesn't have the legs to help the team much?
@@grey_fox7 i imagine because a tired carapaz is still better than your average domestique. helping the team doesnt just mean attacking the leader on the big climbs. there is all sorts of work going on that you wont be seeing, plus he might be hoping for a stage win further down the line if he has a good day
@@chamonixskibum yeah, I just haven't seen him do much domestique work though. I've hardly seen him doing a good pull, I almost never see him in front of Bernal or Yates, so he's not protecting them much. He just seems out there on his own without a solid strategy to assist the team.
I’m no expert but if you’re not going for the stage win and you have 3 potential GC riders, why instead of pacing the peloton and dragging Roglic up the mountains all day, did they not take turns attacking until either one sticks or Roglic tires out from chasing them down and then pick up the pace? At this point it’s pretty clear they’re not going to wear him out by simply setting a high tempo on the last climb of the day
The multiple attack strategy is good, the choice of who makes those attacks is the problem. At the moment, it looks like Yates is the strongest, then Bernal, then Carapaz (yesterday at least). So your best chance of winning is probably with Yates. But for some reason, Yates attacked first, Bernal pulled for Carapaz at some point, Carapaz did the weakest attack ever half way up the climb when he was already looking cooked, Yates dropped Bernal and had to wait for him by the looks of things, it's just a mess.
It would make more sense if Carapaz attacked first at the base before he tired himself out on the climb. He also has the best chance of not being marked as closely seen as he's the lowest on GC and might actually be able to get a gap. Hopefully that attack starts to isolate Roglic and force him to work himself. Then attack with Bernal to keep the pressure on, and then hopefully put in a killer blow with your strongest rider - Yates. Rinse and repeat.
Putting in a big attack with your strongest rider first when Roglic is the freshest and has the most team mates makes no sense seen as the first attack is the least likely to stick but you've fatigued your #1 rider.
@@GDF07 I'm even thinking they should have attacked all day on every climb instead of waiting for the obvious last moment
@@GDF07 Bernal and Carapaz simply wouldn't have been able to get seperation yesterday. Bernal couldn't even try to lift his pace, and when Caparaz tried Lopez just moved onto his wheel like it was just a move to pace and then Carapaz blew up.
Tbh i just think Ineos kep trying to attack and attack to see if Roglic / Movistar dropped or got into difficulty irrelevant of how Bernal was actually doing which was the problem.
It wasn’t the tactics that where wrong, it was Yates and Bernal not performing at the expected level..
It happens. Unless you’re on PEDs, the body just has days where it doesn’t work like normal.
@@keirfarnum6811 offcourse that happens.. and thats why their tactic didn’t work.. the tactic they tried to use only works if you are the strongest on the last climb.. well its obvious by now, they (Ineos) are far from the strongest riders
Bernal is a clean rider trying to win against such a doped up Roglic that even Armstrong is jealous of ... Impossible.
@@pereiraplaza222 so please present us with the proof that Roglic is doping and team Ineos riders are not?
@@pereiraplaza222dude, you are delusional 😂
And now I wonder if Valverde didn't crash out Movister must really have good gc position as Valverde also has pretty good form prior to the crash.
Strange times indeed. Ineos doing a Movistar who in contrast played their cards well. What has the world come to?
As I watched the race I though, “I can’t wait to hear LR torch Ineos for torching themselves” 🤣 I’ve never raced and as I watch it I asked myself WTH are they doing??
It's a question of confidence and legs. Ineos have got to try something. If Yates was on a good day and got to about a minute forcing Roglic to chase with Bernal and Carapaz comfortably marking until the last km followed by some attacks, you would be giving them a verbal slap on the back. When reality is that all 3 of your main riders are not at that level, then you look a bit foolish.
That is actually a very good point!
Where did Roglič shown weakness? I a curious at your comment...
You got a nice pronunciation even with the hardest spanish local names.
I just finished Lora Klinc's book on the 2019 Vuelta, and even though she obviously takes sides, it seems clear that Roglic is more instinctual racer than we are used to seeing in top riders. I don't have a justification for Kuss following the Yate's attack, but I do think that it provided Roglic with another flag to chase. He does seem to do better and remain calmer with team mates around him or in sight, but also he seems to want a target too.
And for the record, it was a quite nice read.
I plan to get the book. Thanks for the info!
Kuss was actually doing pretty good job marking Yates, making Yates to crack,and preventing those initial chasing group to break loose (by sitting on Yates' and Mas' wheel) until Roglic bridge up the gap. That's why he didn't attack beyond Mas.
Pretty exciting vid. PodC; I must have been too tired for after ride. Fell sleep twice to it
Thanks great summary. On the topic of team Ineos why is Pidcock seemingly riding so meh?
Kuss did the same thing at the 2020 TdF where he pedaled up ahead, instead of helping out GC
How do you beat Roglic tho? Surely, you've got team up on him and repeatedly attack him. Ineos rode hard and then Yates attacked him twice without success but at least they tried. A better tactic might have been for Yates to attack followed by either Bernal/Carapaz sitting on Roglic's wheel, ready to then attack over the top, once Roglic bridged the gap, but neither rider were strong enough to do that. Movistar tactically played it safer/smarter by having Lopez go with Yates and Mas with Roglic. It would've been interesting to see Mas attack Roglic once they bridged back to Yates but it seemed Roglic was too strong and it was more sensible to wait for another day. But obviously, the number of other days is finite. It seems very, very likely that Roglic will win regardless but Mas riding for 2nd place on GC is gonna make it easier for him.
Thought the same thing. When Lopez pulled Roglic and mas together back to Yates I wanted to bash my screen. So clearly playing for second.
Although Caruso and Roglic had impressive ride, I'm even more impressed with Lanterne Rouge's Spanish pronunciation... 0:11
Compare Rogla '20 TdF + Vuelta vs. Carapaz '21 TdF + Vuelta.
Incomparable, and Roglic rode the World championship road race and LBL between the tour de France 2020 and La Vuelta 2020 and still won la Vuelta. He was amazing!
Yates is obvs very strong but always seems overgeared to me. It serves him well in an initial attack if he can then maintain it. However, if caught, everyone else seems to be able to spin away more easily while his “churning” cannot respond.
Ineos appear to have not noticed that all the other big teams have upped their game considerably, and that they do not have the dominant GC rider anymore.
Bernal and Carapaz also have a full grand tour in their legs, and Roglic is too good for them at the moment.
These tactics worked for them in Italy, Switzerland (x2), Catalunya Dauphine etc; but not since then and they're looking more leggy by the week.
@@beaufortdalpage186 I think the expectations are too great as well.
They have a grand tour win and several stages, a couple of smaller tours GC and a clutch of stages in other events.
Unfortunately with their budget, it could be seen as lacking.
Movistar are gonna work hard the next two weeks to win back the title for most self-destructive tactics.
Jokes aside, they are doing pretty well in this vuelta. 2 and 3 in GC, better than Ineos and with not that much money
Yates, messed it up. He thinks he want keep up the the fight in the high mountains, and decided to break up the team. Time will prove he doesn't have what it takes to win La Vuelta...
Bernal hasn't looked right since the race started, not just the last km. Mas looks pretty impressive and even superman read the script.
2:21 - tucka tucka back to them. 😂😂
What happened there mate?
That was the helicopter noise, gave me a good laugh anyway!
Tour de l'Avenir!
Unbelieveble final stage, what a fight, 7 seconds in the end.
INEOS has one tactic, whether it works or not :)
I disagree.
Mas shouldn’t work for Roglic when he has Lopez behind.
Lopez shouldn’t work for Haig & Yates when he has Mas in front.
Haig shouldn’t work with Mader behind and Caruso in front.
Yates shouldn’t work with Bernal behind, but we’re out of riders, someone has to pull, and he’s the only one without a teammate in front of him.
Perfect tactics:
Roglic pulls Mas
Yates pulls Haig & Lopez
Ciccone pulls Bernal & Mader
Really well done it makes you think if they had executed this move, without the early pacing too against the new olympic tt champ! ,with yates being their best chance for stage winning counter punch move on steep mountain and he looked great. Thats the only way they are getting time on roglic imo,, kudos for pointing out how smart enric mas was not to try to follow roglic wheel that was a GREAT point really well done, and shows how little that early tempo worked on primoz. Hes a thicker guy, again olympic tt champ on rolling course. the more times you can disrupt his rhythm the better for the rest. On a mountain he is riding his tempo which is usually high to the top to minimize attacks , and on his day has that seated surge that nobody can follow. Sky did it for years with froome.....I know they have changes to their roster and style but it would suit what LR is pointing out. Agree absolutely Mas rides even if roglic didn't help, and he did, mas still rides he is shaping the race podium potentially and putting time into every other competitor and roglic even looked on his limit otherwise, he as one of worlds best puncheurs would never leave it that late to move for the line. I hope to see lopez attack on a stage like 14 suits him on paper let mas sit on to counter if brought back and race gets tense, but thats when I remember there's several teams here and bahrain goes after superman:) I like Haig too its a race and a good one..... they all need time and and lots of it before stage 21. Really solid analysis LR
Yates should not be pacing Bernal, but Bernal had no business trying to close gaps. They are both worth more when a threat on their own. Neither should sacrifice for the other if they want first place. Movistar should not be working with Roglic ever either if they too want anything more than podium. I suspect they know they can't do better and will continue the same. As the race is going tactically it's heading for another fight for second/third while the leader only gets further ahead.
Maybe Carapaz is too worn out (from recent racing) to attack on behalf of Bernal and Yates, and will only expose himself and therefore the team? I think Ineos need to race like the 4th best team and use their brains more.
@@mmmbass6068 If they do anything but attack they are racing for second or third. MoviStar will not do work for them and Jumbo can happily sit out of working either. They can't race like the 4th best team because they aren't and nobody sees them as such to give them opportunities for it. The issue is they are attacking a stronger leader with weaker ones while the third best team is attacking them as well.
SLOVENIJA 🇸🇮👍👏
Brailsford, apparently a genius
Brailsford *no longer has favourite for the race*: Aight I'ma head out
Who tf called him a genius? lol
Himself and Matthew Syed
I think its only you who's called him a genius tbh
@@slahudeenhussain5297 100% a genius at convincing people his teams improved through marginal gains
@@whatwelearned tbf his team has improved, it's just the rest of the peloton have improved even more.
Roglic with that 800w 1minute power
It’s not like there is anything huge between the top 10 and we have seen how riders like Bernal can switch it on later in a tour. It’s good to see Caruso up there and Haig but so far, apart from Kus burning out Roglic looks safe.
And there are people that are against a ban on team radio. WTF are these DS doing ? I think some of the teams would be better off without them.
Ineos swapping places with Movistar after that display?
So, Carapaz is now literally at the bottom of the GC? How is this possible?
Hes exhausted after a terribly long season for him. Not that hard to figure out.
Takataka back to them!
Ineos always ride as if they have peak Chris Froome on their team, when will they realise that bernal isn't the best in the mountains any more
I think that Bernal would actually do better if they had a proper mountain train like in the Froome days and just drilled it up the climbs at a constant pace rather than attack after attack on the climbs like they're currently doing. Bernal seems to struggle with the surges of the constant attack approach they have now, but can probably push big 20 or 30 minute numbers if he doesn't have to surge.
(In case you missed it, they haven't been doing their old mountain train tactics like in the Froome days and have been using their super doms as attackers rather than telling Yates/Carapaz to set a high tempo for as long as they can from the base to prevent attacks, and then only attacking with Bernal at the very end)
This Ineos is not team Sky anymore....
I knew this would happen, smh. Ineos seems to be worse day by day😢
Roglic is on form, trying to keep up with him his probably something only Podgecar can do, so Moviestar did great! Don't understand Kuss, he'll learn, Roglic will probably talk to him a bit
start is so savage 😂
Mate, the discussion of tactics just sets this channel apart. No one asks the questions like WTF ineos! They all just report the facts. Let's get some good subjective analysis!
Why not let Yates attack early and try something? He needs big stuff to happen with his deficit and if you catch Roglic out on a bad day early this is like christmas coming very early. What I didn't like at all Yates attacking after knowing Bernal is having the bad day out of the favorits. I mean he is the best GC rider on that team, even if they want to ride it for Yates you want Bernal up there as well and they totally blew that. You can not be the one pacing there. Sit in and counter if you think you have the move but anything else is bush league tactics.
better to let Carapaz attack, force other teams to ride (or let Carapaz take time back if they don't) and then attack with Yates or Bernal after Carapaz is taken back/has a decent lead. The way they rode now, Carapaz is essentially useless, he did nothing at all.
Yates did attack early before Bernal started suffering.
@@nickmullen2830 And then a second time, which this post is about. That was the dumb mistake I was talking about.
Edit: If you find out your GC contending teammate is the one in the hurt box you don't go for crazy attacks anymore. You let other people do their move and if you're the crazy guy you go over the top after there move. Nothing else.
@@MDP1702 Well Carapaz was pretty done immediately so, I don't know if he had a strong attack in him at all. This would be the best option if it was an option. Maybe Yates attacked regardless then I also wouldn't like that move. But considering how Carapaz looked, I can't critizes them without being in their car.
@@portrunner6931 Carapaz tried an attack after Yates first attack if I remember correctly, however at that point Yates first attack already sapped his energy. It would be better if he had attacked first, when he didn't had to waste so much energy just remaining in that group when Yates attacked.
Yes, Carapaz's attack would likely not get him anything in the end, but it would have allowed Ineos to sit in everyones wheel while other teams had to chase after him.
Even if Carapaz's attack doesn't do anything, it wouldn't be worse than the outcome today (regarding Carapaz's contribution), and with a bit of luck it would have done more.
Always prefer the rest day, as LRCP entertainment is not diluted by an actual race.
Things are not perfect at Ineos right now. General bad mood and morale in the team since the tour (Porte) and also some communication issues (Carapaz)
Not sure what INEOS would have gained have gained by having Carapaz attack, who was going to worry about chasing him down? I suppose Yates might have then bridged across but has Carapaz got the legs to work with Yates at that point,? At some point you have to test the legs of the other riders. At least Yates had a go, it didn't come off but that's sport.
Damiano Caruso for PRESIDENT!!!
Ineos the new Movistar
It's easy to say their tactics were terrible afterwards... At least they tried.
Thx
Ineos tactics are fine. Only so much you can do if you don’t have the strongest rider.
Seems Inez’s doesn’t have much in leadership on the road anymore
Taka Taka back to them… 😆
Team Ineos GC perform is all nearly same, without a outstanding perform GC like Froomey, they can’t win the GT.
Takka takka
I feel like Carapaz wasn't pacing because he was out of gas.
sky used to win because they had far more money than anyone else. they weren’t smarter. they just bought the best riders, coaches, facilities, & support staff. that no longer obtains. they can’t buy victories like they used to.
Not really, they actually were smarter, even this year in the beginning of the season. Think Giro and the one week races. But the mess they show here and even at the tour is embarrassing.
Who would have thought that Superman López would be a better domestique than a leader...
Ineos and Movistar have switched places or something.
Carapez overtrained from the Olympics?
he is too tired 😭😭😭😭
The confidence in couch DS-ing is getting ridiculous. Attacking with your top rider (Yates) while Roglic still respected Bernal most is the best move you can do. No tactics on the last climb can help if your best rider is a class below Roglic (and Mas). Suggesting the attack of lacklustre Carapaz that everyone knows is going nowhere is really not a good take. Kuss did tactically the right thing (that was the plan) but did not really have the legs to provoke Lopez/Mas.
Ineos was right to put pressure on Jumbo team on the long climb but was just not successful. The problem is they didn't want to risk with surprise long attack by Yates (who could potentially bridge 1:30 to Caruso but would then not get any help) bc Movistar/Bahrain would chase him down.
In short: its not easy to play tactics if your guys dont have the legs.. In hindsight - the only tactics that could potentially bring better result to Ineos today would be playing defense..
Yates wasn’t a class below Mas. He attacked multiple times starting way too early at 10km to go and then burned himself
@@LanterneRougeCycling No matter what Yates did today he would lose time on Roglič and Mas. The legs were pretty clear and he rode the climb like he does most of the time - didnt see any burning himself - just your typical Yates climbing and losing against top guys.
While first very early attack was imo legitimate surprise attack knowing Roglič wont follow - i do agree all later attacks were double counter productive..
@@LanterneRougeCycling As another UA-cam channel says "nails in the legs." Yates, after the decision was made to leave Bernal did not lose too much time to Mas and Roglic, he may well have been able to hang with them had he not burned himself out a few times (with 8.7 to go!) earlier. It seems there is a fair bit of wishful thinking (and maybe selfishness from Carapaz) is trending for Ineos.
This critique of Ineos is a little harsh: they made a huge effort to shake things up and test the GC standings. It didn’t work out so well for them (though it was far from disastrous for Bernal and Yates) - but I’d actually give them a lot of credit for trying to shake it up.
Mas is just a smart rider , but he still needs to get the cheque book out ,
Electric viewing.
Egan had covid 19 after the giro and he was not ready for la vuelta, Carapaz is tire from the olimpics and the tour the France and I do not understand why Bernal is always in front of Roglic should be the other way around
Roglic was tired either last year after TDF 2020, World championship, LBL, but still won La Vuelta 2020.
Ineos burned their matches but produced no fire🤪🤪🤪