I really appreciate seeing how you approach deciding on value and decision making in this game - it's very instructive in the more general sense of how to assign value and goals, where approximations are useful and where they are not, etc. Super fascinating look under the hood of Brotato. Thanks for making videos like this!
Appreciate focusing the objective on consistency, so every choice is informed by a common set of assumptions and preferences. Another dimension of choices I hadn't thought much about until reading your spreadsheets is movement. To ensure up-time on both your ranged and melee weapons, taking into account variable cooldowns, cleaving/explosive range, turrets, consumables, trees, and enemy types, certain tactical movements will have different effectiveness and depend on your playstyle & skill dodging. Stats like attack speed, damage, pierce/bounce, and range must relate to one's movement strategy. I personally value attack speed higher than this spreadsheet. Flat damage is certainly essential to a point, with %-scaling better past that, but their utility is hurt by overkilling (excepting piercing to some extent). On the other hand, attack speed should always translate reducing effective enemy HP, so long as you move to keep enemies in range of all weapons. And it improves the utility of lifesteal and crit procs like tentacle and hunting trophy. On the other hand, I'm honestly not sure if the above which I think is true on paper is seen empirically. I can't tell how often weapons swing and miss, or hit the space of enemies already killed.
Incredible stuff! Learning some basics from you got me to my first higher ascension wins on STS, and I'm nearly positive these vids on Brotato will get me consistently winning more Danger 5 runs
For the negative level items giving high negative numbers problem: You can define the quality with lvl/cost instead of cost/level, using score instead of loss. With lvl/cost higher number is always better.
seeing plush monkey in C was brutal since it absolutely hard-carried me through lifesteal's capped heal rate. never touched torture since i find i'm often wanting more than 4HP/s in recovery but this is probably me compensating
something thats great with pickup healing is it stick around untill you get hit. HP regen and lifesteal are worthless at 100%. Luck+Pickupheal increase can easily heal you from 20% to full in like 2 seconds if thats the first time you take damage in the fight
I tend to see dodge more as a flat reduction in damage more than a potential win strategy- kind of a "win more" stat most of the time. If you have a 20% dodge stat, a good fifth of the small hits are going to be negated, meaning you can more often get into crowds of smaller enemies to get more loot. Being capped at 60% really hurts how effective it can be, and the -100 armor on Ghost does NOT do it justice at 90%. I can't say that it tends to really matter, it just personally ends up about as valuable as lifesteal on most runs.
Something I'm taking away from this is to evaluate things with variable value in terms of things with more consistent value, if applicable. This is reminiscent of how jorbs approached evaluating relics in terms of upgrades
Hello Jorbs. Always nice to see spreadsheets. If you wouldn't mind, could you explain what appeals to you about Brotato? Its a game that left me conflicted and I unexpectedly obsessed with it. It never clicked for me, but I felt the need to keep playing. I didn't like it but I wasn't sure why. I don't know if you ever get into this weird state of mind where you feel very strongly but can't put it to words. You are someone I trust with getting to the point of things, generally. Sorry if this is weird.
Question about the spreadsheet. You said something below zero means really bad, but Baby with a Beard shows as -20 on there, but is in the S-tier items. Is that just an issue with calculating its value? Or is it a reflection of a lot of its value coming from having Ranged Damage?
it is horrible unless you have ranged damage, which you will - so natively the item has horrid value that scales rapidly as you get about any damage scaling. which is why its S-tier
That number measures a very complex and specific thing. Whether an item is good or not is a high dimensional question, so to answer it, you always need to ask whether the number you are looking at is relevant to whether the item is good. That number is most relevant for items *just* have a bunch of +/- stats and no other abilities. That is because the number tries to capture the cost of those stats (taking into account how those stats level-up and how valuable jorbs thinks they are). I'd guess that Baby with a Beard has some negative stats (hence the negative number) plus an effect that counterbalances that.
Weird thing with the spreadsheet with negative numbers. He doesn't have anything for ranged damage, and he put in the -50 range. That makes it negative, which makes it "better" in terms of cost/level up, but that's kinda wrong, since it's taking stats away. Of course, he's evaluating on different things than just the semi-vibes based assignments.
It’s hard to make tier lists for this game because there are no S-tier items and no F-tier items. Each item and stat is better and worse depending on which character you’re playing. If you are playing Golem, you you will greatly value Dodge. Armor alone is not enough. You need layered defenses on high difficulty. General rule of thumb, a combination of both dodge, armor and either consumable/steal or consume/regen depending on how fast your weapons attack.
i will say this any crit chance is better than no crit chance at all sure its rng and depends on the weapons you have but lets face it you can never have enough damage
So you say Triangle of Power is not bad because "just don't get hit" but you proritize armor (which needs you to get hit) over Dodge (which nullifies entirely a hit when it triggers). Are you sure you make sense?
This makes sense. You don't ever want to get hit. Regardless of what mitigation strategy you're using, you don't want to get hit. Armor always activates, but Dodge only has a chance of activating. Not everything needs to be "synergistic." Taking less damage makes your sustain more powerful and makes your max hp more powerful. If you low roll on dodge, you die in way fewer hits than if you were taking armor.
I really appreciate seeing how you approach deciding on value and decision making in this game - it's very instructive in the more general sense of how to assign value and goals, where approximations are useful and where they are not, etc.
Super fascinating look under the hood of Brotato. Thanks for making videos like this!
Only in a mathematical approach can there ever be an Item tierlist with Torture in S and Hoodie in D
Agreed, this is.. puzzling.
Appreciate focusing the objective on consistency, so every choice is informed by a common set of assumptions and preferences. Another dimension of choices I hadn't thought much about until reading your spreadsheets is movement. To ensure up-time on both your ranged and melee weapons, taking into account variable cooldowns, cleaving/explosive range, turrets, consumables, trees, and enemy types, certain tactical movements will have different effectiveness and depend on your playstyle & skill dodging. Stats like attack speed, damage, pierce/bounce, and range must relate to one's movement strategy.
I personally value attack speed higher than this spreadsheet. Flat damage is certainly essential to a point, with %-scaling better past that, but their utility is hurt by overkilling (excepting piercing to some extent).
On the other hand, attack speed should always translate reducing effective enemy HP, so long as you move to keep enemies in range of all weapons. And it improves the utility of lifesteal and crit procs like tentacle and hunting trophy.
On the other hand, I'm honestly not sure if the above which I think is true on paper is seen empirically. I can't tell how often weapons swing and miss, or hit the space of enemies already killed.
It's really nice to see you so engaged with Brotato, it makes my day a little better. xx
I’ve been playing brotato when I need a break from baldurs gate and I’m loving it, these videos are perfect for me right now jorbs cheers 👍
same
I respect that you prefer not to share the content until youre good, but it would be really cool to see how you approached getting good
Did he not stream his early ventures into brotato? His UA-cam content is curated, if you want the whole firehose, check out the stream.
Incredible stuff! Learning some basics from you got me to my first higher ascension wins on STS, and I'm nearly positive these vids on Brotato will get me consistently winning more Danger 5 runs
You know it's going to be a good video when Jorbs' says, "so I've decompiled the game code and...."
lmaoo true
I would love more guides like this and SMG/brawlers guides!
For the negative level items giving high negative numbers problem:
You can define the quality with lvl/cost instead of cost/level, using score instead of loss. With lvl/cost higher number is always better.
seeing plush monkey in C was brutal since it absolutely hard-carried me through lifesteal's capped heal rate. never touched torture since i find i'm often wanting more than 4HP/s in recovery but this is probably me compensating
something thats great with pickup healing is it stick around untill you get hit. HP regen and lifesteal are worthless at 100%. Luck+Pickupheal increase can easily heal you from 20% to full in like 2 seconds if thats the first time you take damage in the fight
Appreciate the amount of work you put into this, you madman
I tend to see dodge more as a flat reduction in damage more than a potential win strategy- kind of a "win more" stat most of the time.
If you have a 20% dodge stat, a good fifth of the small hits are going to be negated, meaning you can more often get into crowds of smaller enemies to get more loot. Being capped at 60% really hurts how effective it can be, and the -100 armor on Ghost does NOT do it justice at 90%.
I can't say that it tends to really matter, it just personally ends up about as valuable as lifesteal on most runs.
Something I'm taking away from this is to evaluate things with variable value in terms of things with more consistent value, if applicable. This is reminiscent of how jorbs approached evaluating relics in terms of upgrades
Hello Jorbs. Always nice to see spreadsheets.
If you wouldn't mind, could you explain what appeals to you about Brotato? Its a game that left me conflicted and I unexpectedly obsessed with it. It never clicked for me, but I felt the need to keep playing. I didn't like it but I wasn't sure why. I don't know if you ever get into this weird state of mind where you feel very strongly but can't put it to words. You are someone I trust with getting to the point of things, generally. Sorry if this is weird.
Thinking on this a bit, how does The Mutant confirm/ adjust your perspective of the value of lvl ups vs shop items?
When part 2?
Question about the spreadsheet. You said something below zero means really bad, but Baby with a Beard shows as -20 on there, but is in the S-tier items. Is that just an issue with calculating its value? Or is it a reflection of a lot of its value coming from having Ranged Damage?
it is horrible unless you have ranged damage, which you will - so natively the item has horrid value that scales rapidly as you get about any damage scaling.
which is why its S-tier
That number measures a very complex and specific thing. Whether an item is good or not is a high dimensional question, so to answer it, you always need to ask whether the number you are looking at is relevant to whether the item is good.
That number is most relevant for items *just* have a bunch of +/- stats and no other abilities. That is because the number tries to capture the cost of those stats (taking into account how those stats level-up and how valuable jorbs thinks they are). I'd guess that Baby with a Beard has some negative stats (hence the negative number) plus an effect that counterbalances that.
Weird thing with the spreadsheet with negative numbers. He doesn't have anything for ranged damage, and he put in the -50 range. That makes it negative, which makes it "better" in terms of cost/level up, but that's kinda wrong, since it's taking stats away. Of course, he's evaluating on different things than just the semi-vibes based assignments.
the time has come. brotato spreadsheets
It’s hard to make tier lists for this game because there are no S-tier items and no F-tier items.
Each item and stat is better and worse depending on which character you’re playing.
If you are playing Golem, you you will greatly value Dodge. Armor alone is not enough. You need layered defenses on high difficulty.
General rule of thumb, a combination of both dodge, armor and either consumable/steal or consume/regen depending on how fast your weapons attack.
she tato on my bro until I mash
and he didnt come back D:
i will say this any crit chance is better than no crit chance at all sure its rng and depends on the weapons you have but lets face it you can never have enough damage
So you say Triangle of Power is not bad because "just don't get hit" but you proritize armor (which needs you to get hit) over Dodge (which nullifies entirely a hit when it triggers).
Are you sure you make sense?
This makes sense. You don't ever want to get hit. Regardless of what mitigation strategy you're using, you don't want to get hit.
Armor always activates, but Dodge only has a chance of activating. Not everything needs to be "synergistic." Taking less damage makes your sustain more powerful and makes your max hp more powerful. If you low roll on dodge, you die in way fewer hits than if you were taking armor.
Great video always nice to see his thought process. Shame he pronounced tomato wrong. Reported, unsubbed.
super boring video. sry bud
all good, thank you for engagement to help algorithm.
you suck coc