1) Less Material 2) Less Space in Warehouse/Storage 3) Less Shipping/Transportation Weight 4) Higher Profit Margin 5) Market Demand for Small Solutions... I can go on... For me though, after experiencing the weightier, more large scale of presentation, I simply cannot go back to small speakers. It's not about max SPL, but rather a more dynamic, realistic, and larger-than-life experience. To each their own.
Although there are many notable exceptions the speakers held in highest regard by the most seasoned audiophiles have very large woofers. The trend towards smaller woofers has long been led by the desire to design smaller and more decor friendly speakers. And in my own personal experience while I have heard countless multiple smaller woofer speakers that sounded great all the best I've heard had multiple 10" drivers or 12" to 18" single drivers and sometimes multiple drivers over 12"'s. There's an ease and finesse to lower bass and dynamics with large drivers that multiple smaller drivers never seems to match. I am well aware of what the math says about cone area and excursion. I am also well aware of what reality says the math sounds like when it comes to real world applications.
The simple way around the big woofer / big baffle issue for a tower speaker is to have separate enclosures for the woofer and mids/tweeters that are sized appropriately. The reality is most modern speakers are small and powered subs are used to augment their bass. I built 2 piece towers many years ago that are designed this way.
I think one big woofer sounds better than two smaller ones. My big woofer speakers image better than my narrower twin woofer speakers and they have better scale and deeper bass.
I assume there must be a cost associated with putting 2 speakers in a narrow baffle as opposed to 1 large one, and there must be advantages too. We are free to use our ears (and sometimes our prejudices) to decide what does it for us. Both tell me I agree with you, my guess is there is a sonic signature that we can discern and that the larger speaker is maybe more character and less fidelity, a price I am happy to pay.
@@bradmodd7856 I think it is also a wife acceptance thing, but some big woofer speakers are coming out again like JBL L100, Klipsch Heresy IV. You can treat the front baffle for reflections, Klipsch uses horned tweeters and midrange. The front baffle doesn't matter so much there. I think Bass is the most important part of a speaker and mids an high's should be built up from it.
Yes. Cannot beat the size. Size does play an important role. Big woofers tend to sound big, more headroom and natural in bass producing job. To compensate for mid range/bass losses, go for 3 ways or 4 ways.
Efficiency, Efficiency, efficiency. Or what has actually become over thinking a non problem. I've wasted so much money on these small woofer speakers. I finally went back to oldschool speakers and got the exact sound I've been looking to re create as when I was younger. I don't think I'll ever be a person who needs so called efficient modern speakers so I can just sit and visualize jazz music. Big box, Big woofers are my world. 😛🤘
A smaller woofer needs a smaller enclosure, which results in lower manufacturing costs... Two small woofers with a tiny box cost less than a bigger woofer and a bigger box. Efficiency is what HiFi lacks to be honest. An averge HiFi woofer has a sensitivity of 86 dB/Watt/1 m, while PA woofers have 96-100 dB. In practice, the HiFi woofer needs 4x times more power to have the same sound pressure. Then, you reduce the cone size and the magnet to save cost. The result is a weak, cheap sound in comparison to a 12" PA woofer.
Seems like you're mixing up baffle step and diffraction. Baffle step loss gets worse the smaller you make the baffle. The "pod" style speakers will have the most loss. Big baffles will provide the most support and push the rolloff to a lower frequency. When it comes to diffraction, then that's where things become trickier and there's no simple solution. Infinite baffle (or realistically a huge baffle) will eliminate the edge diffraction and is theoretically the best solution but not practical for most. When you get to mid sized baffles then it can sometimes not sound as good as small baffles but at the same time, small baffles introduce problems of their own with the imaging.
I just put some med/treble single drivers into pod shaped omni directional boxes, taken from similar rectangular omni boxes (like the old Sonabs). There is a vast improvement in the image. Both type boxes have a woofer added.
Isn't it true though that a larger woofer has to move a lot less pistonically and there are benefits to that? In terms of Doppler distortion, there is a different sound to a 12 or 15-in woofer or or even 18 in moving a tiny amount to a bevy of six and a half inch high excursion woofers.
I recently was at my dealer picking up my Luxman D-10X and there was another client demoing a used pair of B&W 801Ns. They were huge, but sounded very very good being powered by a Luxman 509x. Their bass signature was very pleasing and rich. It wasn't as fast or punchy as a modern speaker like my Sopras, but it left a favorable impression. Kind of like a newer Cadillac vs an old Fleetwood that coasts along. I really appreciated them and he bought them, but because they are so big and not as good as my Sopras in many other areas I wouldn't get them, but damn are they good and I can hear why people miss larger drivers. Having the turbine for the midrange and seperate tweeter housing definitely played to their favor as the front baffle didn't interfere too much with their imaging. But they definitely have their own magic 🪄✨
The audiophile speaker world is a fun one, there are so many ways to make a speaker. There are many speakers that I personally would not own that others like. There will always be two camps, multiple smaller woofers vs one larger one. A larger woofer will typically exhibit lower harmonic distortion in the bass frequencies vs a smaller one. This is only a rule of thumb, not an absolute. I would suspect using multiple smaller woofers vs only one small woofer would have lower distortion. For me I’m in large woofer camp, I just like the sound, it’s easier for me due to me applying extensive cone/frame treatments which is time consuming but it makes 1st order crossovers easier to use.
my vintage ess amt 1am have big ( I think 15 inch?) passive radiators . On some tracks ( especially when playing vinyl) the low end can literally can shake my entire house, I can hear the gutters rattling if im standing outside. it somehow does this without being overwhelming or sounding unnatural; just sounds more like live music the more I crank the volume knob. I like it. Bigger is better, but newer isn't always better my 2 cents
@@HaraldMacGerhard Yes I also agree. When I come home from one of the electronics shows, and fire off my 15" stereo speakers, the physical experience from the room being pressurized is what I find is missing from most of the present day speaker designs (Very disappointing.). I do not even have to have the volume up much higher than conversation level. IDK, I understand what Paul is saying, trade-offs, and my preference is to experience the music through my ears and my body.
The 12" and 15" woofers have just moved into subwoofers in higher end systems. There are still speakers on the market with big woofers, and the "retro" speakers (like KLH model 5) are having some resurgence.
Nah, I'm still in love my old 15" Altec A7 VOTTs driven by my Dynaco tube amp with KT-88s. Even built my own passive crossovers and a Raspberry Pi DAC, (no preamp is the best preamp) I think the sound is truly amazing. Lots of tweaks to the system and room over the years, but that's the other half of the fun! If I had to do it all over, Bozak Concert Grand maybe my other consideration.
Hi, thanks for your videos I always manage to learn something new, I remember the old days when we had 15 & 12" 3 way hi fi speakers in our front rooms, also at that time i used to go out to listening to various reggae sound systems who used 18" bass bins at venues throughout the UK, But as time has moved on I have to as well I now play flac files via USB flash drive on an award winning mid level sony av receiver in stereo mode with entry level 2.5 way monitor audio speakers with 6.5 mid bass & 2 x 6.5 woofers Bi amped with audioquest rocket 22 & qed xt 40i cables. Thanks to my room acoustics I don't use an active sub "YET" for listening to roots reggae music, the monitor audio's can't reach to the very lowest bass note but they get close to it, they can still fully reproduce every single bass note that they can capture without any problem all the same, I feel adding that 2 good quality active subs would be all I would need to recreate the deep bass sounds I listened to all those years ago, plus I didnt get any grief because the size of the speakers were very acceptable to my spouse
My Infinity RS IIIa's from the early 1980's have two 10's each in shallow (but tall) boxes. So it's not always been that way. I have also always thought there is no replacement like displacement so that's why I have 4 of them for a total of eight 10's
Well after using so many narrow speakers I'd say I prefer my KLH Model 5 to any narrow one I've used so far. Just sounds big and loose in the bass yet defined. That's just me but no one is wrong depends on your preferences
When it comes to standalone stereo floor standing speakers, I’ll take a pair of “properly” designed 3-way full range sealed speakers any day over anything else. I don’t care if it takes several cubic feet of volume to accomplish that. I personally haven’t heard the KLH Model 5’s, but I hear they are a move in that direction for the budget conscious. 👨🏻 Enjoy your speakers. They can be your best consoling friend in times of trouble.
Paul is confused on baffle step. The smaller the baffle the bigger the problem. The real reason for slim enclosures is fashion and looks. This is why most slim speakers will benefit from a seperate sub. At least three 8 drivers are required to match driven area of one 15 driver. Larger woofer drivers have a lower resonant frequency and can move air more easily at lower frequencies. It is basic physics.
I have a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos ST's that have built-in sub woofers and the speakers are 9 inches wide They go down to 20hz I love that full range sound! Oh l also have two SVS Ultra 13 subs in my stereo rig
The combined surface area of multiple smaller drivers will of course move as much air as one larger driver, and smaller cones are easier to control. Two benefits right off the bat. Add in the narrower baffle, and you have three.
Modern design Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers are absolutely fantastic for their transient response and weight/depth of sound, the VX12 and VX15 for example. For me, small loudspeakers just don't cut it. Find a happy medium depending upon your requirements and room size. Whatever your ears tell you.
Have you heard the Fyne Audio series? The management of Fyne Audio are the ex-management and design team from Tannoy before they became a brand name of a conglomerate group of companies.
@@joepostle3561 I am Informed of Fyne Audio loudspeakers and that's quite interesting actually. I haven't heard them in person yet but I'm hoping to find a place where they can get them to sing for me on a private audition
My speakers have 2 10" woofers, 6×10" mid horns coupled to compression drivers, and a lovely 1" horn loaded tweeter. Over 25 years I have through much trial and error found just the right electronics to put behind them, and they are phenomenal, forward, but sound like a live performance, I still get the chills now and then. Love the channel Paul, please keep the knowledge flowing
My aDs 910s also have dual-10.5" bass drivers, built into their own enclosures inside the cabinets, along with dome mids/tweets. They're easily the best loudspeakers I've ever heard, with 93db efficiency and 4ohms, they're very easy to drive, though they demand all the current they can gulp up. The NAD 208 thx power amp and Emotiva xda-2 balanced preamp/DAC has been the best electronics gassing them up. A pair of Adcom 555s also works quite well.
@@trog69 my speakers are 25 year old 50th anniversary klipch legend series, KLF20s, I finally settled on a midlevel Yamaha AVR RXA2 and an emotiva BasX a2 for the mains, the Yamaha is very musical and a bit warm, the emotiva ii
@@trog69 opps the emotiva is basically transparent and adds massive headroom, Its operating in the 20% range, totally linear and never has to try very hard
@@dans550 I was looking hard at the KLF series before I fell into the aDs sphere. I saw a pair of L810s on their original stands and decided I had to try them out. Got myself a pair-sans stands ( the stands for the L710/L810s are rarely seen nowadays. ) and love them, and the 910s practically fell into my lap here in S. Arizona. Once I put some serious power to the 910s I was floored by the power and all-around dynamics, though I'm sure the klf20s are similarly dynamic.
I am still the most happy with 2 10" Celestion woofers per side. In the past I had the Dali Special Project 40, which had 4 10" woofers per side. I like my bass, and I do not like subwoofers.
A good active subwoofer still gives better deep bass than a fullrange passive speaker. That's why I always add atleast one sub regardless of what the speaker specs say about going low.
Maybe you have problems with standing waves on lower frequencies and thats why you dont like subs? I think there are few rooms that can handle sub frequencies well.
@@bingoberra18 Or maybe he does the same mistake like soooo many others: Can't adjust the phase quite correct between sub and speakers so it sounds like shit. I hear this all the time. Took me awhile ti get mine right but now I would never ever have a system without a sub. And I have 12 inch floor speakers with pretty good bass.. But never evwr heard a passive speaker give me that deep, true subwoofer bass. A system needs an good active sub to do that properly.
@@Oystein87 warm, very close, but not completely. I don't want the effort to get everything right. I seem to have a preference for big speakers I love the infinity Paul played with for a long time, or the YM lab grande utopia. I want to play everything from classical and opera to dance music. I want to be able to use my speakers when I throw a party, but they should also sound just as vital on lower volume.
@@miepmiepzoefzoef So you don't care about sound then since it still requires an effort with or without a sub?🤷♂️ I also like big speakers.. But I still have never heard one that do not need an active sub along side it to really hit the lows. Unless it already has a built in active one. But even then I could still consider a dedicated sub in many cases. Everything you mention is just a bigger reason to add a sub or two..🤷♂️
this whole theory only applies to passive radiators, otherwise you have to have increased moving mass to get lower bass, unless you use dsp then only cone area matters. and perhaps displacement if you want to sacrifice some fidelity, which passive radiators and ports do.
I memory serves me right, there is an old video with Chris, in which he explains the pros and cons of having woofers on the side or woofers on the front, one big woofers or multiple small woofers.
Many years ago, I had speakers that were not narrow baffle. The front of the speakers were about two feet into the room. Hospital foam rolled out on the wall behind the speakers improved depth and soundstaging considerably. When I replaced those speakers with Vandersteen 2c's, the hospital foam was no longer necessary, as the midrange and tweeter mounted above the woofer cabinet.
...I missed those big woofer speakers. Only they can create music that can feel in your chest...shake windows...and roof. That's a good feeling. Houe full of music. Nowadays speakers would only give you room filling music ...discreet music...lol
How do planar, line sources, operated as dipoles fit into this discussion? To avoid cancellation, via destructive interference of rear wave, Superpositioning,( Classical), with front wave, my baffle is 17 inches wide. Notice the IRS V has a rather large baffle too.
All, our host is softly pushing smaller woofer sizes, because that is what he is selling in his speakers. There is truth to what he is saying. But there is also that which he is not saying, which pertains to the advantages of 12" woofers. Vandersteen's flagship model Seven speakers use 12" woofers. Those speakers are "reference" speakers. They compete with any speakers at any price for the #1 spot in sound reproduction. Why does Richard Vandersteen use 12" woofers in his model Seven speakers? The next time I meet him, I will ask him (he travels the country and speaks to customers about all of his products). But based on how amazing all of his speakers sound, and especially his model Seven speakers, it stands to reason that Richard knows his craft, and that 12" woofers are the right choice for some speakers. Eight inch woofers will also sound amazing for some speakers. But let's not poo-poo 12" woofers because we (our host) do not sell them.
Until a musician changes a guitar cabinet from say x 10s etc then I’m not changing. And yes like Paul said plenty still making full range speakers with large woofers so tada.
I would challenge the 10" or larger woofer required. My speaker have 4 eight's in an array on each speaker and they barely move and the sound halfway up would drive most out of the room while still being crystal clear. If you have a high quality cabinet it can make even a cheaper woofer do wonders. If you have an excellent woofer in a crap cabinet it will sound horrible. Now it is true in general a larger sub like a 15" will not be as fast or have the separation of the smaller woofers. I did see an exception when I owned the Klipsch flagship corner loaded horns with the 15's in the bottom. Those things could make you tap out but sounded super fast and tight with rock songs. So based on price point most smaller woofers move faster and less muddy and most large woofers slower and not as defined. When you move up the quality chain in construction and design that can change. So budget to spend might define how you approach what size woofer and brand to use.
Not really true that a bigger woofer is slower. If it's well designed it's lightning fast but remember to have the power to make it move controlled. Or else it just gets muddy on high volumes. I have hear a 18 inch sub play perfekt with 5x 5 inch floor speakers so. But yeah, it also costed a bit of money so... And I rather have 1x 15 inch than i.e a 4x 8 inch sub
woffee size matters a lot! in active speakers and bluetooth speakers, DSP is often used. digital signal processor since over the years it has become relatively cheap to use. and that powerful speakers are relatively cheap to use, so bass and sound quality are quite good for small speakers nowadays For sub/bass you should not use less than 10" in good speakers, I would never choose less than 6.5" It has also long been a struggle to squeeze a speaker into the smallest possible box. smaller boxes mean less bass
it depends the music you will hear, and the place where the system is located. shut up and get out of here trying to impose your criteria without knowledge. not every system got to be as you say.
@@georgemartinezza You should not always doubt what everyone else says. They may be right in what they say. There are some things you cannot escape when talking about speakers and speaker construction. Speakers are not an easy thing to deal with. You will often be disappointed. If you have speakers that only produce good sound for a few types of music, you don't have good speakers. if you have good speakers but they don't give you good sound on some types of music, then it's the music recording's fault, not the speaker if you put a speaker in a corner or next to a wall in a room, you get better bass but not as good sound quality! if you have a 5 inch speaker in a box that is too small, you will get less good sound. if you have a sound system with a 6.5 inch bass box, you will not get good bass! If you are going to have a subb/bass box for your sound system, you should have a minimum of 10 inches. the difference between 6.5 and 10 inches is large. small mids are better and give faster mids than what a 10" 12" does. harman kardon and jbl extreme bluetooth speakers often have a special bass that colors a lot at around 80hz, which does not give the best bass sound
are you being a bit harsh w/ the "shut up and get out..." line? might be nicer to suggest folks be careful conflating, "you should..." with "I would..."
Most common is 6,5 to 8 inch woofers and i think its better to have multiply of those woofers than one big one, it would be much easier to place those speakers in room, i take sq always ovrr spl
@@georgemartinezza we don’t need such big drivers in speakers becouse we can use multiply drivers instead and make a slimmer speaker witch will work better and sound better in most rooms, subwoofers is there to help with lowend and yes i prefer a larger sub, but for the main speaker 3-4 6,5-8 inch drivers is more than enough typ push high spl with good subs, look at perlisten r7t and s7t they have 4 bass drivers each 7 inch in r7t and 8 inch in s7t, both can play over 115 db, s7t can nearly reach 120 db, so yes those kind of drivers is enough in a main speakers just use subwoofers for bass output under 30 hz, most people play Below 85 db at their listening position, even speakers with 2 6,5 drivers can play 85 db in your listening position without problems and it might be louder than you think, playing much louder than that of you plan to listen music for long periods will just damage your hearing in the longeun,
@@georgemartinezza yes i agree i am just using one at moment but planning to get another later, i have no rush through as i think the one i have in my room does a really good job👍
I think dual 10" woofers per tower is the sweet spot for bass response, though I havent heard many speakers that use four or more 6\8" woofers per cab. More drivers working @ half their load makes sense for keeping down distortion for sure..
Style. Few people want to see huge floor speakers anymore. When was the last time you saw an audio system as the focal point of a living room? People want small speakers they can hide, and maybe a subwoffer in the corner if they are fancy.
You are absolutely correct. We have been talked into thinking larger speakers are ugly. It started with the satellite/ subwoofer push by certain companies saying it was just as good. Once the wives got convinced, speakers were no longer furniture. Now the focus is on making it smaller while minimizing natural compromises. Some are more successful than others.
I was surprised at the answer for this one. I thought the reason speakers were getting thinner was to make them more pleasing to look at and take up less living room space. "Wife acceptance factor" to coin a mildly sexist term. ;-) I didn't know that the thinner design also had acoustic benefits.
Not sure I totally agree with you on this one Paul, to me the compromise is wife acceptance in the home...like the IRS 5's? Take for example the brand new 75th anniversary Jubilee speakers out from that famous Hope Arkansas company known for the horn speakers that are absolutely massive, almost 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide. They are running two 12" subs per speaker with a 7" horn...they have massive foot print in a room. Wife acceptance is 0%. Another problem is cost also, more power is required to drive these larger speakers also...sadly the market demands are really controlling speaker size or everyone would live in mansions with million dollar audio systems. Look at the SR30's were delayed years to make them more modern looking than the original prototypes...? Multiple driver speakers also have their own inherent issues that have to be overcome as well...no? No compromise speakers don't sell volume or net companies big cash, this is the hard truth of market economy...cheap mass volume speakers can though.
Actually.. Less power is requiered to play at the same level volume as a smaller speaker... But to play REALLY loud and stille have good control it will always require more power regardless of the speaker size.
@@digggerrjones7345 Yes, higher sensitivity speakers CAN play VERY loud with almost no power at all. But still needs good power to have full controll at high volumes regardless. Even more for less efficient and smaller speakers. That is the 100% correct answer.
@@digggerrjones7345 Every idiot knows that brand is high mark for speaker efficiency, I was generalizing for large speakers like in general...but what ever makes you feel superior man. 🤣🤦♂
I wish this guy had visuals that matched his excellent explanation. The surrounding room and background had nothing to do with speakers. Why not a few props? What's with the square microwave oven looking things on the ground? Shouldn't we be looking at examples of speakers as he talks about speakers?
I know people want "quick" bass, but sometimes there's no replacement for displacement. Bass slam is something no little 6.5" woofer is ever going to give you.
I got in an argument in the comments in another one of your videos with someone about a larger woofer being slower than a smaller one. You said in this video that a smaller woofer is lighter and faster like I had thought. What's the truth?
Everybody's a self-defensive know-it-all. I don't claim to know everything but, yes, a lighter woofer would be faster, more responsive, it would have less resonance, a tighter sound and easier to drive too.
I totally agree. All the topics concerning loudspeakers, even the interaction between power amplifier and loudspeaker should left to Chris. Paul does more harm then good for the public and for PS Audio.
@@JerryRutten sorry, he did a perfectly ok simple explanation. Chris would of did a more technical explanation, but that wasn’t necessary. There is a reason the FR30 doesn’t have 12 inch or bigger woofers, several smaller woofers is superior.
@@scottborenstein8291 According to Paul are the best loudspeakers in the world the IRS-V. Small woofers (12") and small baffles for the midrange (3') ? He's not consistent...
WRONG AGAIN! Case in point,. A pair of JBL K29900 speakers have 15 inch drivers. They will produce far more bass than your 4 8 inch speakers. Like the old saying goes "There is no replacement for displacement". If you really want to get punished with bass, let's compare your puny 4 8 inch drivers with the king of bass for floor standing speakers. Of course, I am talking about the legendary Cerwin Vega XLS 2-15 speakers with TWO PUNISHING 15 inch high output drivers per speaker. Those speakers will OBLITERATE ANY SPEAKERS PS Audio has....... PERIOD and next topic of conversation.
Having heard small and big woofers, I suppose common bias is the need to produce 'market fit' products and speakers. 18 inch sounds amazing, but ain't desired by many due to an ideal cabinet size of about 500 litres for example, let alone the cost (in the whole chain). But it's also a matter of taste. I have never liked the series of small woofers, let alone the speakers that need very powerful amps to drive them. But for the industry, small boxes needing loads of power, thats profit for them any day.
1) Less Material
2) Less Space in Warehouse/Storage
3) Less Shipping/Transportation Weight
4) Higher Profit Margin
5) Market Demand for Small Solutions...
I can go on...
For me though, after experiencing the weightier, more large scale of presentation, I simply cannot go back to small speakers. It's not about max SPL, but rather a more dynamic, realistic, and larger-than-life experience.
To each their own.
Although there are many notable exceptions the speakers held in highest regard by the most seasoned audiophiles have very large woofers. The trend towards smaller woofers has long been led by the desire to design smaller and more decor friendly speakers. And in my own personal experience while I have heard countless multiple smaller woofer speakers that sounded great all the best I've heard had multiple 10" drivers or 12" to 18" single drivers and sometimes multiple drivers over 12"'s. There's an ease and finesse to lower bass and dynamics with large drivers that multiple smaller drivers never seems to match. I am well aware of what the math says about cone area and excursion. I am also well aware of what reality says the math sounds like when it comes to real world applications.
The simple way around the big woofer / big baffle issue for a tower speaker is to have separate enclosures for the woofer and mids/tweeters that are sized appropriately. The reality is most modern speakers are small and powered subs are used to augment their bass. I built 2 piece towers many years ago that are designed this way.
I think one big woofer sounds better than two smaller ones. My big woofer speakers image better than my narrower twin woofer speakers and they have better scale and deeper bass.
I assume there must be a cost associated with putting 2 speakers in a narrow baffle as opposed to 1 large one, and there must be advantages too. We are free to use our ears (and sometimes our prejudices) to decide what does it for us. Both tell me I agree with you, my guess is there is a sonic signature that we can discern and that the larger speaker is maybe more character and less fidelity, a price I am happy to pay.
@@bradmodd7856 I think it is also a wife acceptance thing, but some big woofer speakers are coming out again like JBL L100, Klipsch Heresy IV. You can treat the front baffle for reflections, Klipsch uses horned tweeters and midrange. The front baffle doesn't matter so much there. I think Bass is the most important part of a speaker and mids an high's should be built up from it.
Yes. Cannot beat the size. Size does play an important role. Big woofers tend to sound big, more headroom and natural in bass producing job. To compensate for mid range/bass losses, go for 3 ways or 4 ways.
Your right
the imaging don't happen at this frequencies at all and large, heavy membranes have their own issues
Efficiency, Efficiency, efficiency. Or what has actually become over thinking a non problem. I've wasted so much money on these small woofer speakers. I finally went back to oldschool speakers and got the exact sound I've been looking to re create as when I was younger. I don't think I'll ever be a person who needs so called efficient modern speakers so I can just sit and visualize jazz music. Big box, Big woofers are my world. 😛🤘
Great question, great answer
A smaller woofer needs a smaller enclosure, which results in lower manufacturing costs...
Two small woofers with a tiny box cost less than a bigger woofer and a bigger box.
Efficiency is what HiFi lacks to be honest. An averge HiFi woofer has a sensitivity of 86 dB/Watt/1 m, while PA woofers have 96-100 dB. In practice, the HiFi woofer needs 4x times more power to have the same sound pressure.
Then, you reduce the cone size and the magnet to save cost. The result is a weak, cheap sound in comparison to a 12" PA woofer.
Great explanation... thanks, Paul.
Thanks Sir for the info
Seems like you're mixing up baffle step and diffraction. Baffle step loss gets worse the smaller you make the baffle. The "pod" style speakers will have the most loss. Big baffles will provide the most support and push the rolloff to a lower frequency. When it comes to diffraction, then that's where things become trickier and there's no simple solution. Infinite baffle (or realistically a huge baffle) will eliminate the edge diffraction and is theoretically the best solution but not practical for most. When you get to mid sized baffles then it can sometimes not sound as good as small baffles but at the same time, small baffles introduce problems of their own with the imaging.
I just put some med/treble single drivers into pod shaped omni directional boxes, taken from similar rectangular omni boxes (like the old Sonabs). There is a vast improvement in the image. Both type boxes have a woofer added.
Isn't it true though that a larger woofer has to move a lot less pistonically and there are benefits to that? In terms of Doppler distortion, there is a different sound to a 12 or 15-in woofer or or even 18 in moving a tiny amount to a bevy of six and a half inch high excursion woofers.
I recently was at my dealer picking up my Luxman D-10X and there was another client demoing a used pair of B&W 801Ns. They were huge, but sounded very very good being powered by a Luxman 509x. Their bass signature was very pleasing and rich. It wasn't as fast or punchy as a modern speaker like my Sopras, but it left a favorable impression. Kind of like a newer Cadillac vs an old Fleetwood that coasts along. I really appreciated them and he bought them, but because they are so big and not as good as my Sopras in many other areas I wouldn't get them, but damn are they good and I can hear why people miss larger drivers. Having the turbine for the midrange and seperate tweeter housing definitely played to their favor as the front baffle didn't interfere too much with their imaging. But they definitely have their own magic 🪄✨
Thanks!
The audiophile speaker world is a fun one, there are so many ways to make a speaker. There are many speakers that I personally would not own that others like. There will always be two camps, multiple smaller woofers vs one larger one. A larger woofer will typically exhibit lower harmonic distortion in the bass frequencies vs a smaller one. This is only a rule of thumb, not an absolute. I would suspect using multiple smaller woofers vs only one small woofer would have lower distortion. For me I’m in large woofer camp, I just like the sound, it’s easier for me due to me applying extensive cone/frame treatments which is time consuming but it makes 1st order crossovers easier to use.
Greetings from another fan in Pearland Texas. It is directly south of Houston.
my vintage ess amt 1am have big ( I think 15 inch?) passive radiators . On some tracks ( especially when playing vinyl) the low end can literally can shake my entire house, I can hear the gutters rattling if im standing outside. it somehow does this without being overwhelming or sounding unnatural; just sounds more like live music the more I crank the volume knob. I like it. Bigger is better, but newer isn't always better my 2 cents
Agree, and I am not sure I agree with Paul, really large cones pressurize the room in a different way 😎
@@HaraldMacGerhard Yes I also agree. When I come home from one of the electronics shows, and fire off my 15" stereo speakers, the physical experience from the room being pressurized is what I find is missing from most of the present day speaker designs (Very disappointing.). I do not even have to have the volume up much higher than conversation level. IDK, I understand what Paul is saying, trade-offs, and my preference is to experience the music through my ears and my body.
Focal Grand Utopia EM's.. Wilson Audio Alexandria XLF... Monster woofers.. Monster money!
Great explanation as usual 🔊🔊
The 12" and 15" woofers have just moved into subwoofers in higher end systems.
There are still speakers on the market with big woofers, and the "retro" speakers (like KLH model 5) are having some resurgence.
Nah, I'm still in love my old 15" Altec A7 VOTTs driven by my Dynaco tube amp with KT-88s. Even built my own passive crossovers and a Raspberry Pi DAC, (no preamp is the best preamp) I think the sound is truly amazing. Lots of tweaks to the system and room over the years, but that's the other half of the fun!
If I had to do it all over, Bozak Concert Grand maybe my other consideration.
Hi, thanks for your videos I always manage to learn something new, I remember the old days when we had 15 & 12" 3 way hi fi speakers in our front rooms, also at that time i used to go out to listening to various reggae sound systems who used 18" bass bins at venues throughout the UK,
But as time has moved on I have to as well I now play flac files via USB flash drive on an award winning mid level sony av receiver in stereo mode with entry level 2.5 way monitor audio speakers with 6.5 mid bass & 2 x 6.5 woofers Bi amped with audioquest rocket 22 & qed xt 40i cables.
Thanks to my room acoustics I don't use an active sub "YET" for listening to roots reggae music, the monitor audio's can't reach to the very lowest bass note but they get close to it, they can still fully reproduce every single bass note that they can capture without any problem all the same, I feel adding that 2 good quality active subs would be all I would need to recreate the deep bass sounds I listened to all those years ago, plus I didnt get any grief because the size of the speakers were very acceptable to my spouse
My Infinity RS IIIa's from the early 1980's have two 10's each in shallow (but tall) boxes. So it's not always been that way. I have also always thought there is no replacement like displacement so that's why I have 4 of them for a total of eight 10's
Well after using so many narrow speakers I'd say I prefer my KLH Model 5 to any narrow one I've used so far. Just sounds big and loose in the bass yet defined.
That's just me but no one is wrong depends on your preferences
Klh are excellent speakers
When it comes to standalone stereo floor standing speakers, I’ll take a pair of “properly” designed 3-way full range sealed speakers any day over anything else. I don’t care if it takes several cubic feet of volume to accomplish that. I personally haven’t heard the KLH Model 5’s, but I hear they are a move in that direction for the budget conscious. 👨🏻
Enjoy your speakers. They can be your best consoling friend in times of trouble.
what type / genre of music do you listen?
@@georgemartinezza pretty much everything but opera and country music
@@georgemartinezza I listen to most stuff also, but sorry fans… opera, rap, and disco are mostly intolerable from my perspective.
Paul is confused on baffle step. The smaller the baffle the bigger the problem. The real reason for slim enclosures is fashion and looks. This is why most slim speakers will benefit from a seperate sub. At least three 8 drivers are required to match driven area of one 15 driver. Larger woofer drivers have a lower resonant frequency and can move air more easily at lower frequencies. It is basic physics.
I have a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos ST's that have built-in sub woofers and the speakers are 9 inches wide They go down to 20hz
I love that full range sound! Oh l also have two SVS Ultra 13 subs in my stereo rig
I like big speakers but was pleasantly surprised to find two tens do pack a punch without so much wobble
12s are my favorite
The combined surface area of multiple smaller drivers will of course move as much air as one larger driver,
and smaller cones are easier to control. Two benefits right off the bat. Add in the narrower baffle, and you have three.
Modern design Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers are absolutely fantastic for their transient response and weight/depth of sound, the VX12 and VX15 for example. For me, small loudspeakers just don't cut it. Find a happy medium depending upon your requirements and room size. Whatever your ears tell you.
Have you heard the Fyne Audio series? The management of Fyne Audio are the ex-management and design team from Tannoy before they became a brand name of a conglomerate group of companies.
@@joepostle3561 I am Informed of Fyne Audio loudspeakers and that's quite interesting actually. I haven't heard them in person yet but I'm hoping to find a place where they can get them to sing for me on a private audition
@@no_bull If I may ask, which country are you based? (I only ask because if you’re in the UK I can recommend some dealers)
@@joepostle3561 Melbourne unfortunately. I'll be moving to Greece soon though
I dont use my 12 inch sub as a sub anymore, its more of a table...
My speakers have 2 10" woofers, 6×10" mid horns coupled to compression drivers, and a lovely 1" horn loaded tweeter.
Over 25 years I have through much trial and error found just the right electronics to put behind them, and they are phenomenal, forward, but sound like a live performance, I still get the chills now and then.
Love the channel Paul, please keep the knowledge flowing
My aDs 910s also have dual-10.5" bass drivers, built into their own enclosures inside the cabinets, along with dome mids/tweets. They're easily the best loudspeakers I've ever heard, with 93db efficiency and 4ohms, they're very easy to drive, though they demand all the current they can gulp up. The NAD 208 thx power amp and Emotiva xda-2 balanced preamp/DAC has been the best electronics gassing them up. A pair of Adcom 555s also works quite well.
@@trog69 my speakers are 25 year old 50th anniversary klipch legend series, KLF20s, I finally settled on a midlevel Yamaha AVR RXA2 and an emotiva BasX a2 for the mains, the Yamaha is very musical and a bit warm, the emotiva ii
@@trog69 opps the emotiva is basically transparent and adds massive headroom, Its operating in the 20% range, totally linear and never has to try very hard
@@dans550 I was looking hard at the KLF series before I fell into the aDs sphere. I saw a pair of L810s on their original stands and decided I had to try them out. Got myself a pair-sans stands ( the stands for the L710/L810s are rarely seen nowadays. ) and love them, and the 910s practically fell into my lap here in S. Arizona. Once I put some serious power to the 910s I was floored by the power and all-around dynamics, though I'm sure the klf20s are similarly dynamic.
I can't go to concerts easily any longer, but as far as I have heard, this is as close as I can get at home
what are you talking about?
@@georgemartinezza I take care of my 93 year old dad, just don't like to get to far away
I am still the most happy with 2 10" Celestion woofers per side.
In the past I had the Dali Special Project 40, which had 4 10" woofers per side.
I like my bass, and I do not like subwoofers.
A good active subwoofer still gives better deep bass than a fullrange passive speaker. That's why I always add atleast one sub regardless of what the speaker specs say about going low.
Maybe you have problems with standing waves on lower frequencies and thats why you dont like subs? I think there are few rooms that can handle sub frequencies well.
@@bingoberra18 Or maybe he does the same mistake like soooo many others: Can't adjust the phase quite correct between sub and speakers so it sounds like shit. I hear this all the time. Took me awhile ti get mine right but now I would never ever have a system without a sub. And I have 12 inch floor speakers with pretty good bass.. But never evwr heard a passive speaker give me that deep, true subwoofer bass. A system needs an good active sub to do that properly.
@@Oystein87 warm, very close, but not completely. I don't want the effort to get everything right. I seem to have a preference for big speakers I love the infinity Paul played with for a long time, or the YM lab grande utopia.
I want to play everything from classical and opera to dance music. I want to be able to use my speakers when I throw a party, but they should also sound just as vital on lower volume.
@@miepmiepzoefzoef So you don't care about sound then since it still requires an effort with or without a sub?🤷♂️ I also like big speakers.. But I still have never heard one that do not need an active sub along side it to really hit the lows. Unless it already has a built in active one. But even then I could still consider a dedicated sub in many cases.
Everything you mention is just a bigger reason to add a sub or two..🤷♂️
My Vegas have 12 in woofers
Can't beat the bass. My ohm l have 8 in woofers, can't keep up
It takes about 3 1/2 eight inch drivers to equal the radiating area of one 15 inch driver.
More like 4x 8 inch. There is some loss by just adding the mass together like you do because of the round shape
this whole theory only applies to passive radiators, otherwise you have to have increased moving mass to get lower bass, unless you use dsp then only cone area matters. and perhaps displacement if you want to sacrifice some fidelity, which passive radiators and ports do.
Thank you I am still learning about the effects of DSP on the loud speaker ( self taught )
I memory serves me right, there is an old video with Chris, in which he explains the pros and cons of having woofers on the side or woofers on the front, one big woofers or multiple small woofers.
that's a real and true fact: the place and space where the speakers are located really matters.
Many years ago, I had speakers that were not narrow baffle. The front of the speakers were about two feet into the room. Hospital foam rolled out on the wall behind the speakers improved depth and soundstaging considerably. When I replaced those speakers with Vandersteen 2c's, the hospital foam was no longer necessary, as the midrange and tweeter mounted above the woofer cabinet.
So happy we have fans of Vandersteen speakers.
He can still find larger drivers in some of the open baffle speakers . They have gained some popularity .
...I missed those big woofer speakers. Only they can create music that can feel in your chest...shake windows...and roof. That's a good feeling. Houe full of music. Nowadays speakers would only give you room filling music ...discreet music...lol
Does the choice of 1 big woofer vs multiple smaller ones affect the sensitivity?
How do planar, line sources, operated as dipoles fit into this discussion? To avoid cancellation, via destructive interference of rear wave, Superpositioning,( Classical), with front wave, my baffle is 17 inches wide. Notice the IRS V has a rather large baffle too.
All, our host is softly pushing smaller woofer sizes, because that is what he is selling in his speakers.
There is truth to what he is saying. But there is also that which he is not saying, which pertains to the advantages of 12" woofers.
Vandersteen's flagship model Seven speakers use 12" woofers.
Those speakers are "reference" speakers. They compete with any speakers at any price for the #1 spot in sound reproduction.
Why does Richard Vandersteen use 12" woofers in his model Seven speakers?
The next time I meet him, I will ask him (he travels the country and speaks to customers about all of his products).
But based on how amazing all of his speakers sound, and especially his model Seven speakers, it stands to reason that Richard knows his craft, and that 12" woofers are the right choice for some speakers.
Eight inch woofers will also sound amazing for some speakers. But let's not poo-poo 12" woofers because we (our host) do not sell them.
Dual 21in concert subs ✊🏽wait not in a living room … or maybe 🤔 🤣
hm I did not know that very cool!
I think these days using a sub is the norm. As long as your mains can go below 80 hz I think you're in good shape.
What about separate boxes? Bass with big woofer and small MID/TWEET box up?
The baffle step can be fixed with the appropriate crossover.
And cabinet/box design etc
Until a musician changes a guitar cabinet from say x 10s etc then I’m not changing. And yes like Paul said plenty still making full range speakers with large woofers so tada.
I would challenge the 10" or larger woofer required. My speaker have 4 eight's in an array on each speaker and they barely move and the sound halfway up would drive most out of the room while still being crystal clear. If you have a high quality cabinet it can make even a cheaper woofer do wonders. If you have an excellent woofer in a crap cabinet it will sound horrible. Now it is true in general a larger sub like a 15" will not be as fast or have the separation of the smaller woofers. I did see an exception when I owned the Klipsch flagship corner loaded horns with the 15's in the bottom. Those things could make you tap out but sounded super fast and tight with rock songs. So based on price point most smaller woofers move faster and less muddy and most large woofers slower and not as defined. When you move up the quality chain in construction and design that can change. So budget to spend might define how you approach what size woofer and brand to use.
Not really true that a bigger woofer is slower. If it's well designed it's lightning fast but remember to have the power to make it move controlled. Or else it just gets muddy on high volumes. I have hear a 18 inch sub play perfekt with 5x 5 inch floor speakers so. But yeah, it also costed a bit of money so...
And I rather have 1x 15 inch than i.e a 4x 8 inch sub
totally agree
woffee size matters a lot! in active speakers and bluetooth speakers, DSP is often used. digital signal processor since over the years it has become relatively cheap to use. and that powerful speakers are relatively cheap to use, so bass and sound quality are quite good for small speakers nowadays
For sub/bass you should not use less than 10"
in good speakers, I would never choose less than 6.5"
It has also long been a struggle to squeeze a speaker into the smallest possible box. smaller boxes mean less bass
it depends the music you will hear, and the place where the system is located.
shut up and get out of here trying to impose your criteria without knowledge. not every system got to be as you say.
@@georgemartinezza You should not always doubt what everyone else says. They may be right in what they say.
There are some things you cannot escape when talking about speakers and speaker construction.
Speakers are not an easy thing to deal with. You will often be disappointed.
If you have speakers that only produce good sound for a few types of music, you don't have good speakers.
if you have good speakers but they don't give you good sound on some types of music, then it's the music recording's fault, not the speaker
if you put a speaker in a corner or next to a wall in a room, you get better bass but not as good sound quality!
if you have a 5 inch speaker in a box that is too small, you will get less good sound.
if you have a sound system with a 6.5 inch bass box, you will not get good bass!
If you are going to have a subb/bass box for your sound system, you should have a minimum of 10 inches. the difference between 6.5 and 10 inches is large.
small mids are better and give faster mids than what a 10" 12" does.
harman kardon and jbl extreme bluetooth speakers often have a special bass that colors a lot at around 80hz, which does not give the best bass sound
@@ford1546 yes. I love.
are you being a bit harsh w/ the "shut up and get out..." line? might be nicer to suggest folks be careful conflating, "you should..." with "I would..."
This is true
Most common is 6,5 to 8 inch woofers and i think its better to have multiply of those woofers than one big one, it would be much easier to place those speakers in room, i take sq always ovrr spl
maybe you don't know how the sound in subwoofers is developed.
subwoofer is Omni directional
@@georgemartinezza we don’t need such big drivers in speakers becouse we can use multiply drivers instead and make a slimmer speaker witch will work better and sound better in most rooms, subwoofers is there to help with lowend and yes i prefer a larger sub, but for the main speaker 3-4 6,5-8 inch drivers is more than enough typ push high spl with good subs, look at perlisten r7t and s7t they have 4 bass drivers each 7 inch in r7t and 8 inch in s7t, both can play over 115 db, s7t can nearly reach 120 db, so yes those kind of drivers is enough in a main speakers
just use subwoofers for bass output under 30 hz, most people play Below 85 db at their listening position, even speakers with 2 6,5 drivers can play 85 db in your listening position without problems and it might be louder than you think, playing much louder than that of you plan to listen music for long periods will just damage your hearing in the longeun,
@@andreasmoller9798 more subwoofers -
@@georgemartinezza yes i agree i am just using one at moment but planning to get another later, i have no rush through as i think the one i have in my room does a really good job👍
@@andreasmoller9798 more subwoofers is complex. to setup got to be "carefully" . ✌
Must be Pearland, which is Houston
Tannoy Westminster Royal GR is probably the best example going off what Paul was saying. Let’s not mention their weight or their price?
I think dual 10" woofers per tower is the sweet spot for bass response, though I havent heard many speakers that use four or more 6\8" woofers per cab. More drivers working @ half their load makes sense for keeping down distortion for sure..
Style.
Few people want to see huge floor speakers anymore. When was the last time you saw an audio system as the focal point of a living room? People want small speakers they can hide, and maybe a subwoffer in the corner if they are fancy.
You are absolutely correct. We have been talked into thinking larger speakers are ugly. It started with the satellite/ subwoofer push by certain companies saying it was just as good. Once the wives got convinced, speakers were no longer furniture. Now the focus is on making it smaller while minimizing natural compromises. Some are more successful than others.
I was surprised at the answer for this one. I thought the reason speakers were getting thinner was to make them more pleasing to look at and take up less living room space. "Wife acceptance factor" to coin a mildly sexist term. ;-) I didn't know that the thinner design also had acoustic benefits.
Not sure I totally agree with you on this one Paul, to me the compromise is wife acceptance in the home...like the IRS 5's?
Take for example the brand new 75th anniversary Jubilee speakers out from that famous Hope Arkansas company known for the horn speakers that are absolutely massive, almost 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide. They are running two 12" subs per speaker with a 7" horn...they have massive foot print in a room. Wife acceptance is 0%. Another problem is cost also, more power is required to drive these larger speakers also...sadly the market demands are really controlling speaker size or everyone would live in mansions with million dollar audio systems. Look at the SR30's were delayed years to make them more modern looking than the original prototypes...?
Multiple driver speakers also have their own inherent issues that have to be overcome as well...no?
No compromise speakers don't sell volume or net companies big cash, this is the hard truth of market economy...cheap mass volume speakers can though.
Actually.. Less power is requiered to play at the same level volume as a smaller speaker... But to play REALLY loud and stille have good control it will always require more power regardless of the speaker size.
Gotta call you on the comment about more power for the Jubilees. Those things are 107-110db sensitivity!
@@digggerrjones7345 Yes, higher sensitivity speakers CAN play VERY loud with almost no power at all. But still needs good power to have full controll at high volumes regardless. Even more for less efficient and smaller speakers.
That is the 100% correct answer.
@@digggerrjones7345 Every idiot knows that brand is high mark for speaker efficiency, I was generalizing for large speakers like in general...but what ever makes you feel superior man. 🤣🤦♂
#1 the one and only PS Audio 💗
I wish this guy had visuals that matched his excellent explanation. The surrounding room and background had nothing to do with speakers. Why not a few props? What's with the square microwave oven looking things on the ground? Shouldn't we be looking at examples of speakers as he talks about speakers?
I know people want "quick" bass, but sometimes there's no replacement for displacement. Bass slam is something no little 6.5" woofer is ever going to give you.
🤗👍 THANKS PAUL,EXPLAINING WHY IT IS THE BEST TIME TO BE AN AUDIOPHILE 😎😁💚💚💚
I got in an argument in the comments in another one of your videos with someone about a larger woofer being slower than a smaller one. You said in this video that a smaller woofer is lighter and faster like I had thought. What's the truth?
Everybody's a self-defensive know-it-all. I don't claim to know everything but, yes, a lighter woofer would be faster, more responsive, it would have less resonance, a tighter sound and easier to drive too.
@@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter My thoughts as well.
Sat/sub.
They still do come with 12 and 15 inches....🤷♂️🤷♂️
My 12 inches are narrower at the top than on the bottom.
I think you are wrong to prove it look at the new Klipch Jubilee I think they know how to make a speaker.
Hey Paul,…Klipsch speakers come to mind..La Scala and Kipschorn for example
not even wrong! SIGH
Is it me or does this channel have a lot of chat bots? Broken English, investment opportunities, "prizes"?
I think maybe he should have left this one up to Chris Brunhaver....
Why, Paul did a good job explaining it.
@@scottborenstein8291 No, he didn’t.
I totally agree. All the topics concerning loudspeakers, even the interaction between power amplifier and loudspeaker should left to Chris. Paul does more harm then good for the public and for PS Audio.
@@JerryRutten sorry, he did a perfectly ok simple explanation. Chris would of did a more technical explanation, but that wasn’t necessary. There is a reason the FR30 doesn’t have 12 inch or bigger woofers, several smaller woofers is superior.
@@scottborenstein8291 According to Paul are the best loudspeakers in the world the IRS-V. Small woofers (12") and small baffles for the midrange (3') ? He's not consistent...
WRONG AGAIN! Case in point,. A pair of JBL K29900 speakers have 15 inch drivers. They will produce far more bass than your 4 8 inch speakers. Like the old saying goes "There is no replacement for displacement". If you really want to get punished with bass, let's compare your puny 4 8 inch drivers with the king of bass for floor standing speakers. Of course, I am talking about the legendary Cerwin Vega XLS 2-15 speakers with TWO PUNISHING 15 inch high output drivers per speaker. Those speakers will OBLITERATE ANY SPEAKERS PS Audio has....... PERIOD and next topic of conversation.
Doesn’t seem a satisfying explanation. Hard to see how a tiny woofer compares to the bass capability of the larger 12” on up.
Having heard small and big woofers, I suppose common bias is the need to produce 'market fit' products and speakers. 18 inch sounds amazing, but ain't desired by many due to an ideal cabinet size of about 500 litres for example, let alone the cost (in the whole chain). But it's also a matter of taste. I have never liked the series of small woofers, let alone the speakers that need very powerful amps to drive them. But for the industry, small boxes needing loads of power, thats profit for them any day.
Important: these rules of quality are not applicable for pro audio, you need high SPL for pro audio