You're awesome Paul!!! Thank you and grateful for youuuuu and your humble soul. I was not watching the video, but listening - and for some reason was assuming 'toe' accounted for the vertical tilt as well but of course, it makes sense as the terms(toe and camber) are too shared in automobile suspension system. I get that listener should be still(for the purpose of calculating and observing) and so we can leave an axis (y) as constant. So all that is left is the change in the x axis... I see how there could be significant change here, but what if you'd rather project to a group of people, and the observer is not just you, or one person? This is my assumption on why the manual said to tilt back them loudspeakers( exactly the opposite goal of what you were explaining) - Which was the single observer projection/experience./.// I watched the video again and still learned something
Well done, Paul. You do a pretty good job of putting the cookies on the lower shelf so we can more easily get at them. :) I also just slightly toe-in my speakers. Using a clock image I'd venture my speakers are angled at about the 12:45 to 1 o'clock position. Just seems to be the best overall compromise for as you say at least some speakers.
If you haven't got a designed-in radiation pattern front and rear you can fake it by increasing gain on the rear output by at least 6dB and toeing the speakers in by 30 degrees. That will give some time/intensity trading in the direct plus enough gain in back for depth and spaciousness of the soundstage. Position them 1/4 of the room width in from the side walls and the same amount out from the front wall. Apply diffusion as needed.
@@ryanschipp8513 True, but the great thing that carries Bob's legacy is his ability to teach and have his audience create. He does this by making his knowledge relatable and attainable so that the average or above average person could be empowered to learn about art: how it's created, and how to actually create it and make it ones's own with practice and by watching his shows. Paul has done this in so many ways for everyone in his audience on UA-cam, or by simply emailing or calling PS Audio from customers to enthusiasts. As the owner and figure head of his company he does pitch his products, but his overall intentions are for the betterment of music and it's medium of transmission, whether it has his companie's logo(s) or not.
@@LuxAudio389 I understand, just feel Paul can be like a used car salesman at times where as Bob is not. So....Paul is kind of like Bob. But also very different than Bob.
What about a home theatre situation with a good bit of separation of fronts and rears in a good sized living room? Would you still position them mostly on axis with just a small amount of toe in?
Hi Paul, Love your videos, I know you were attempting to create your own midrange driver? Are all of the speaker drivers in the FR30 original or did you get them off the China shelf? Keep up the good informative videos.
The best place to start when placing speakers in a room is the owner's manual. Most speaker manufacturers put placement instructions with illustrations and measurements in the first few pages of the manual.
Nice explanation. With my less than FR30 class speakers, I choose little toe in for a nice wide soundstage, and simply EQ the tweeters a little hotter to keep it crisp. I find toe in brings additional sharpness at the expense of soundstage width. It is all a balancing act.
It's always the room because 50% of what you what you hear is the the room - hence put put your name down money money in the room instead waste it for gear and cables
Ok, so you are telling us that you will have an expanded/wider soundstage if you only place them with just a little bit of toe-in? This should mean that the room it self comes to play more and the direct sound from the speakers less... I can understand this effect, but doesn´t this degree clarity, presence and center focus? Some speakers with beamy characteristics need to be toe-in/on-axis to sound their best, with maximum presence, but will not be able to have this wider soundstage then according to you? Perhaps I misunderstood and this was about the FR30´s only...?
I place mine on adjacent walls, eleven feet apart forming a V with me at the apex.The sound fills the entire middle of the V. With a TV at the mouth of the V. Magic
I will also note. if great soundstage and imaging is not in the recording itself I don't care if you have Paul's speakers or $100 Sony bookshelf speakers, the speakers can't transform a crappy recording to all of a sudden have a ton of soundstage and great Imaging. point being, great soundstage and imaging come from mainly the recording itself. I'd say 80% of it comes from the recording at 20% from the speakers.
A complete sound field like the one Paul describes is my preferred soundstage which extends well beyond the right and left sides of a loudspeaker. This is a requirement for me and I get kinda frustrated when I hear a system where things are truncated between the loudspeakers. Everything in audio playback is an elusion and I want my speakers to be able to perform what was intended on a recording good or bad! This has no basis on enjoying music for the music.
No, it is not all an illusion - it's physics. The depth and space is caused by the reflected sound output of the speakers. That is why the tweeters on the back of the IRS and the rear tweeters on the FR30s. They still haven't made them adjustable for greater gain but it's a baby step in the right direction. Also depends on speaker positioning and toe in.
I am curious as to how large can the room be for the FR30's! Also what the Maximum Spread between them should be! Always a Pleasure hearing from you Paul!
@Taco Long before I consider coughing up $30,000 I like to do as much investigative research as possible! Including a trip to PS Audio listening room! I have 5 rooms to Visit during the next year! Thanks for the Edification!
I used to have a pair of electrofluidics sonolith 2.2 xi and not only was speaker placement crucial, so was toe-in. Mine were at almost 45 degrees toe in for perfect imagiary. Straight on firing of speakers head on, I was never a fan of
IF you have B&Ws, and you toe them in pointed at you, your ears will be bleeding within minutes, since they like to voice their tweeters way too hot, and at least 5db louder than the woofers and midrange drivers. Pointing them straight out will alleviate that to some extent, but still not enough for my ears. I can't stand it, but many consumers love B&W speakers.
I own speakers (3 drivers), with off axis placed tweeters. That gives me some more to Play with, in terms of set-up, and room size, placement and so forth.
Depends on the on room acoustics - with 15 degees sidewalls become more problematic and it always depends on the combination of speakers and room - Dali es example are designed for not toe in at all
@@Harald_Reindl how do you work out 15 degrees is more problematic, it's less problematic, a wider dispersion angles is going to give you comb effect and room resonance problems more.
Is there a way to tell based on their design which tweeters should be pointed at the listener and which work fine even if they are pointed straight ahead? 🤔
I suspect that some of what Paul conveyed is news to some folks. Speakers disappearing? Yes. When you close your eyes, and your ears cannot identify the location of the speakers, then you have a great set-up. Most people, I believe, never heard such a set-up. Most people, I believe, never conceived that such an experience can exist. Same thing for sound seemingly coming from beyond the outer edges of the speakers. Yes, when everything is dialed in properly, you will hear voices and instruments (more often instruments) several feet to the left of the left speaker, and ditto for the right speaker. And then there is the height of the sound-stage and the depth of the sound-stage. Same principles. Note that the quality of the song you are playing must be up there. Most songs are wrecked in the studios by incompetent "engineers", making the above not possible with such songs. All of the "cables are cables" trolls have never heard such a system, and it is one of the reasons that they bash quality cables (because on their stereo, which does nearly none of the above, cables pretty much make no difference). The other reason the trolls bash cables is because of "out of their reach" envy, which is a bad character trait. I cannot afford any of the above. But I have heard it, and I give credit to the brilliant folks that design such mind-blowing equipment that delivers what has to be heard to be believed.
Great video, Paul. Go ahead and name the names, I appreciate it! 🙂
🤗👍THANKS PAUL … for tiptoeing through a sensitive subject about Toe-In and like you suggested let our ears 👂 determine the “proper” Toe-In 👍😍😍😍
You're awesome Paul!!! Thank you and grateful for youuuuu and your humble soul.
I was not watching the video, but listening - and for some reason was assuming 'toe' accounted for the vertical tilt as well but of course, it makes sense as the terms(toe and camber) are too shared in automobile suspension system. I get that listener should be still(for the purpose of calculating and observing) and so we can leave an axis (y) as constant. So all that is left is the change in the x axis... I see how there could be significant change here, but what if you'd rather project to a group of people, and the observer is not just you, or one person? This is my assumption on why the manual said to tilt back them loudspeakers( exactly the opposite goal of what you were explaining) - Which was the single observer projection/experience./.// I watched the video again and still learned something
Well done, Paul. You do a pretty good job of putting the cookies on the lower shelf so we can more easily get at them. :) I also just slightly toe-in my speakers. Using a clock image I'd venture my speakers are angled at about the 12:45 to 1 o'clock position. Just seems to be the best overall compromise for as you say at least some speakers.
Right on Paul, well explained. “Although” your video title says something different. Speaker placement is a whole other subject.
If you haven't got a designed-in radiation pattern front and rear you can fake it by increasing gain on the rear output by at least 6dB and toeing the speakers in by 30 degrees. That will give some time/intensity trading in the direct plus enough gain in back for depth and spaciousness of the soundstage. Position them 1/4 of the room width in from the side walls and the same amount out from the front wall. Apply diffusion as needed.
Paul is the Bob Ross of Audio. Think about that, but he's his own committed man forsure 🎶🎨
? But Bob Ross was not a salesman.
@@ryanschipp8513 True, but the great thing that carries Bob's legacy is his ability to teach and have his audience create. He does this by making his knowledge relatable and attainable so that the average or above average person could be empowered to learn about art: how it's created, and how to actually create it and make it ones's own with practice and by watching his shows. Paul has done this in so many ways for everyone in his audience on UA-cam, or by simply emailing or calling PS Audio from customers to enthusiasts. As the owner and figure head of his company he does pitch his products, but his overall intentions are for the betterment of music and it's medium of transmission, whether it has his companie's logo(s) or not.
@@LuxAudio389 I understand, just feel Paul can be like a used car salesman at times where as Bob is not. So....Paul is kind of like Bob. But also very different than Bob.
@@ryanschipp8513 sure he was, he was his own brand with merchandise and painting schools. Nice bloke though, just as Paul.
@@robinr5787 But he didnt sell snake oil power regenerator and power cables....
Thanks for the info! And first!
What about a home theatre situation with a good bit of separation of fronts and rears in a good sized living room? Would you still position them mostly on axis with just a small amount of toe in?
Hi Paul, Love your videos, I know you were attempting to create your own midrange driver? Are all of the speaker drivers in the FR30 original or did you get them off the China shelf? Keep up the good informative videos.
engineered by them. made in china.
I would love a pair of the FR30 studio monitors.
Wonderful explanation 👏 🏴☠️😎
omg the juudder at the end
The best place to start when placing speakers in a room is the owner's manual. Most speaker manufacturers put placement instructions with illustrations and measurements in the first few pages of the manual.
Lol
Nice explanation. With my less than FR30 class speakers, I choose little toe in for a nice wide soundstage, and simply EQ the tweeters a little hotter to keep it crisp. I find toe in brings additional sharpness at the expense of soundstage width. It is all a balancing act.
You simply need more reflected sound output from the rear drivers. Can you adjust that?
Aww man, I want to know your favorite brand. Well said👍
His favorite brand is Tannoy of course ;)
I've found in a small room stright on is fine but in a larger room toe'ing them in is better but I am talking about speakers from the 1980's. lol
I found that some rooms affect the tow-in verses straight-out question regardless of brand.
It's always the room because 50% of what you what you hear is the the room - hence put put your name down money
money in the room instead waste it for gear and cables
@@Harald_Reindl Yep. That's what I found also.
Wilson Audio, right?
Ok, so you are telling us that you will have an expanded/wider soundstage if you only place them with just a little bit of toe-in? This should mean that the room it self comes to play more and the direct sound from the speakers less... I can understand this effect, but doesn´t this degree clarity, presence and center focus? Some speakers with beamy characteristics need to be toe-in/on-axis to sound their best, with maximum presence, but will not be able to have this wider soundstage then according to you? Perhaps I misunderstood and this was about the FR30´s only...?
I had a dream that Paul came to visit me and we hung out and had a good time but never turned my stereo on.
I place mine on adjacent walls, eleven feet apart forming a V with me at the apex.The sound fills the entire middle of the V. With a TV at the mouth of the V. Magic
I will also note. if great soundstage and imaging is not in the recording itself I don't care if you have Paul's speakers or $100 Sony bookshelf speakers, the speakers can't transform a crappy recording to all of a sudden have a ton of soundstage and great Imaging. point being, great soundstage and imaging come from mainly the recording itself. I'd say 80% of it comes from the recording at 20% from the speakers.
Great explanation. Do Movie Cinemas toe in their behemoths?
Cinema and stereo are a different worlds
Don't think so, listeners in cinemas are all over the place, where to point the toe in to?
A complete sound field like the one Paul describes is my preferred soundstage which extends well beyond the right and left sides of a loudspeaker. This is a requirement for me and I get kinda frustrated when I hear a system where things are truncated between the loudspeakers. Everything in audio playback is an elusion and I want my speakers to be able to perform what was intended on a recording good or bad! This has no basis on enjoying music for the music.
No, it is not all an illusion - it's physics. The depth and space is caused by the reflected sound output of the speakers. That is why the tweeters on the back of the IRS and the rear tweeters on the FR30s. They still haven't made them adjustable for greater gain but it's a baby step in the right direction. Also depends on speaker positioning and toe in.
JBL horns. Go ahead Paul, you're free to say what you want.
My Tannoys sound great firing straight ahead AND with extreme toe in, crossing in front on the listening position.
I am curious as to how large can the room be for the FR30's! Also what the Maximum Spread between them should be! Always a Pleasure hearing from you Paul!
@Taco Long before I consider coughing up $30,000 I like to do as much investigative research as possible! Including a trip to PS Audio listening room! I have 5 rooms to Visit during the next year! Thanks for the Edification!
They have a video where Paul himself is delivering fr30s. Room was pretty small. Around 5m X 7m if I am not mistaken.
@@jazzabana Thank you, I have seen 2 delivery Presentations but it still does not answer my 2 questions about how large of a room or how far apart!
That speaker on the table looks like a candidate for a lower cost bookshelf brother to the FR30
...and it will probably cost *only* $10-15k!
I used to have a pair of electrofluidics sonolith 2.2 xi and not only was speaker placement crucial, so was toe-in. Mine were at almost 45 degrees toe in for perfect imagiary. Straight on firing of speakers head on, I was never a fan of
i guess the one brand talked about for the huge toe in is AN UK.
Great speakers, like the original Snells. These are designed for extreme toe in and corner placement.
Could also be Audio Physic
You made a echo chamber in that room
IF you have B&Ws, and you toe them in pointed at you, your ears will be bleeding within minutes, since they like to voice their tweeters way too hot, and at least 5db louder than the woofers and midrange drivers. Pointing them straight out will alleviate that to some extent, but still not enough for my ears. I can't stand it, but many consumers love B&W speakers.
You are probably too young for b&ws.
Yep. G&R Research recently lambasted B&W for this reason, with lots of measurements to back it up.
He wouldn't be referring to Wilson Audio, would he? ;)
Go Colorado! Sorry, off topic I know.
I own speakers (3 drivers), with off axis placed tweeters. That gives me some more to Play with, in terms of set-up, and room size, placement and so forth.
30 degrees is not necessarily good for narrow rooms you want something like 15 or 22 degrees
Depends on the on room acoustics - with 15 degees sidewalls become more problematic and it always depends on the combination of speakers and room - Dali es example are designed for not toe in at all
@@Harald_Reindl how do you work out 15 degrees is more problematic, it's less problematic, a wider dispersion angles is going to give you comb effect and room resonance problems more.
Is there a way to tell based on their design which tweeters should be pointed at the listener and which work fine even if they are pointed straight ahead? 🤔
I suspect that some of what Paul conveyed is news to some folks.
Speakers disappearing?
Yes.
When you close your eyes, and your ears cannot identify the location of the speakers, then you have a great set-up.
Most people, I believe, never heard such a set-up. Most people, I believe, never conceived that such an experience can exist.
Same thing for sound seemingly coming from beyond the outer edges of the speakers.
Yes, when everything is dialed in properly, you will hear voices and instruments (more often instruments) several feet to the left of the left speaker, and ditto for the right speaker.
And then there is the height of the sound-stage and the depth of the sound-stage. Same principles.
Note that the quality of the song you are playing must be up there. Most songs are wrecked in the studios by incompetent "engineers", making the above not possible with such songs.
All of the "cables are cables" trolls have never heard such a system, and it is one of the reasons that they bash quality cables (because on their stereo, which does nearly none of the above, cables pretty much make no difference).
The other reason the trolls bash cables is because of "out of their reach" envy, which is a bad character trait.
I cannot afford any of the above. But I have heard it, and I give credit to the brilliant folks that design such mind-blowing equipment that delivers what has to be heard to be believed.
Cables 🤤
Aaaaaaaargh. just say the brands. Just sayin'. Cheers!
Very very basic nothing to learn here.
5 minutes of HS.