I was a fallen away Catholic at the time of Vatican II. I considered the church cold and scary. I stayed away for 35 years. I didn’t raise my kids Catholic. I finally came back, finding the church more human and accessible after Vatican II
It's telling that Bishop Barron's mother was sad when Fish on Friday, a core of Catholic family values, was dropped. It reminds me of the Jewish Priests' being scandalized when Jesus said that ritual washing of hands before meals was useless. A culture's wealth of lore and practices Is the culture. His mother felt duped. As the Jews resisted Christ's upending of Leviticus, Christianity went to the Gentiles. Now it is passing to the Global south, newly relevant and vital!
I too, now aged 90 was “there at the time” and living and working in Rome. I had been an Anglican, but was received into the Catholic Church in 1958, aged 24. Vatican II was definitely much needed, BUT the decisions made then by all the bishops have not been fully effected, and many things have changed because I am afraid many bishops and priests have since given into the demands of the Laity on several things, one of them being Communion in the hand, for instance. The leaders need to be far more firm, I think. +
Wendy Field, is it not that consecrated married, celibate vowed to man in Christ and male female, vowed to God, keep in uncertainty of their belief their inseparability and qualitative equality as exercising an absolute power of authorisation? Was this as initiated at Vatican 11 by Humanae Vitae, 1968, 12 reflecting this keeping of inseparability in late 1964 by the UNO Food and Agriculture Organisation and Pope St Paul V1's Commission on Population? Was this as completed by the addition of 'qualitatively equal' authorised in exercising an absolute power by the consecrated celibate marriage of Pope Francis on 17 June 2021 ensuring its procreation role gifts embezzled by ten of its helpers, including Cardinal Angelo Becciu, and simultaneously insuring its need of union of its identity at unacceptable risk of fraud by the Italian State "Zan" anti-homophobia bill?
In such a powerful, hierarchical Church the people were infantilized, tasting the sacred mysteries, taking the eucharist like baby birds, reciting, genuflecting, signing, kneeling, behind the veil. Priests and deacons go through rigorous study in seminary; most of the congregation didn’t even know the bible then. How could they evangelize? Women still may not preach, but they give out the blessed sacrament in Mass. It's a hybrid religion. We go behind the curtain, we read the Bible without understanding. We wanly wave and smile at each other, on cue, right before Eucharist thus disrupting the transformation at the altar. The baby and the bathwater / no one steps in the same river twice. Is the river now dry, or the baby flung out ? Heavens know!
For those of us who were born in the early 1040’s and remember the Church before Vatican II - Vatican II was not at all a failure. We were thrilled to participate in the Mass understanding the words and praying them in our hearts. It was not a failure because we were able to learn more of the Bible and communicate with our Protestant counterparts. It was not a failure because we stopped avoiding having Jewish friends. It was such a breath of fresh air. The only issue was the intractability and urge to go back by conservatives!
The young are put off by boomer Mass. They come to TLM and ask " why has this been kept from us all this time??" The revived TLM revives many people's faith and converts more, is attractive to the young, and is the way forward, shorn of that censoriousness so common before V2 (I remember that). The irony is that censorious opprobrium returns, from the mouth of post conciliar.apologists towards those whom they have robbed of their very beautiful birthright, which, reborn, is proving very effective. 100s of.millions of souls.have been lost because of ugly liturgy.
I was a fallen away Catholic at the time of Vatican II. I considered the church cold and scary. I stayed away for 35 years. I didn’t raise my kids Catholic.
I finally came back, finding the church more human and accessible after Vatican II
Not a failure - an absolute unmitigated disaster.
It's telling that Bishop Barron's mother was sad when Fish on Friday, a core of Catholic family values, was dropped. It reminds me of the Jewish Priests' being scandalized when Jesus said that ritual washing of hands before meals was useless. A culture's wealth of lore and practices Is the culture. His mother felt duped. As the Jews resisted Christ's upending of Leviticus, Christianity went to the Gentiles. Now it is passing to the Global south, newly relevant and vital!
I too, now aged 90 was “there at the time” and living and working in Rome. I had been an Anglican, but was received into the Catholic Church in 1958, aged 24. Vatican II was definitely much needed, BUT the decisions made then by all the bishops have not been fully effected, and many things have changed because I am afraid many bishops and priests have since given into the demands of the Laity on several things, one of them being Communion in the hand, for instance. The leaders need to be far more firm, I think. +
Wendy Field, is it not that consecrated married, celibate vowed to man in Christ and male female, vowed to God, keep in uncertainty of their belief their inseparability and qualitative equality as exercising an absolute power of authorisation?
Was this as initiated at Vatican 11 by Humanae Vitae, 1968, 12 reflecting this keeping of inseparability in late 1964 by the UNO Food and Agriculture Organisation and Pope St Paul V1's Commission on Population?
Was this as completed by the addition of 'qualitatively equal' authorised in exercising an absolute power by the consecrated celibate marriage of Pope Francis on 17 June 2021 ensuring its procreation role gifts embezzled by ten of its helpers, including Cardinal Angelo Becciu, and simultaneously insuring its need of union of its identity at unacceptable risk of fraud by the Italian State "Zan" anti-homophobia bill?
In such a powerful, hierarchical Church the people were infantilized, tasting the sacred mysteries, taking the eucharist like baby birds, reciting, genuflecting, signing, kneeling, behind the veil. Priests and deacons go through rigorous study in seminary; most of the congregation didn’t even know the bible then. How could they evangelize? Women still may not preach, but they give out the blessed sacrament in Mass. It's a hybrid religion. We go behind the curtain, we read the Bible without understanding. We wanly wave and smile at each other, on cue, right before Eucharist thus disrupting the transformation at the altar. The baby and the bathwater / no one steps in the same river twice. Is the river now dry, or the baby flung out ? Heavens know!
For those of us who were born in the early 1040’s and remember the Church before Vatican II - Vatican II was not at all a failure. We were thrilled to participate in the Mass understanding the words and praying them in our hearts. It was not a failure because we were able to learn more of the Bible and communicate with our Protestant counterparts. It was not a failure because we stopped avoiding having Jewish friends. It was such a breath of fresh air. The only issue was the intractability and urge to go back by conservatives!
It's been a disaster, a faithkiller.
The young are put off by boomer Mass. They come to TLM and ask " why has this been kept from us all this time??" The revived TLM revives many people's faith and converts more, is attractive to the young, and is the way forward, shorn of that censoriousness so common before V2 (I remember that).
The irony is that censorious opprobrium returns, from the mouth of post conciliar.apologists towards those whom they have robbed of their very beautiful birthright, which, reborn, is proving very effective. 100s of.millions of souls.have been lost because of ugly liturgy.
maybe. you should be selling used cars...