Something that uspets me to no end is when people say you can't sexualize people who've been through abuse WHEN A VERY PROMINENT SYMPTOM OF ABUSE IS HYPERSEXUALIZATION. Angel dust actually has so much character development just throughout the first season that he just completely ignores
First of all, no he doesn't, And this isn't a symptom of his character but every single character in Hazbin hotel is developed in the most poor way possible and it has to do with a mix of vizzy's incompetence in writing and the very strict runtime they have Yes The episode focusing on him is really good and setting up the fundamentals, but the issue with that, is that that's all it is. Past that episode he doesn't get any meaningful development and goes back to acting the same way he was. There is no long-lasting development that he or any of the other characters react to Because it never gets expanded upon, which is jarring because by the climax Charlie chooses him to be the representative of change in hell which would have been a cool idea if he had actually changed and grown as a person This is due to a mix of vizzies incompetence in writing, How she butchered the entire premise and a lot of the development of the characters and the fact that with only eight episodes there is so little to do but at the same time she could have made it work if her writing was better and sadly it wasn't leaving angel dust and most of the characters very underdeveloped
@@PinkPuff07 There are time jumps that are put in place to get the season to the planned end point in only 8 episodes, but I don't think this means the characters are poorly written. It's the story structuring that's the problem more than the character development. In the case of episode 6, which I wouldn't really characterize at the climax of the season, we're supposed to take for granted that after Loser, Baby, Angel Dust becomes more committed to salvation, hence the establishing dialogue between him and Husk at the sex club. It's fast and economical, but it's not exactly missing any key information. There are no plot holes in Angel's development. It's just the sort of thing where if they had moved episode 6 to the end of the season, it would have given them a better canvas on which to develop things. He doesn't go back to acting the same way he was, as you claim, but he's not given much screen time past the midway point except for episode 6, so the writers were working with very little. One of the few times we see him have a meaningful moment is in episode 8 when he decides to spend the night talking with Husk, saying "you fucked one cannibal pool boy, you've fucked them all." It does indicate that he's found a connection in Husk and doesn't just want to spend his last night partying, which is indeed character development. I think a lot of the criticism of the writing on this show has been overblown or just not accurate, although there definitely are flaws.
@@foreverdirt1615 I think the character development is equally as bad as the story development because again it's just poorly written Everything you said is correct and valid but my issue is not that he isn't developed but just how little he was developed. Again even after his episode, He still acts the same. Yes, his dynamic with another character changed but that isn't enough to justify his importance later on being the representative of reformed people from hell. That episode should have been fundamentals of his development being formed and not the actual development itself. The worst part is that he got it better off most of the characters: Alastor is just there to say cryptic shit and give fuel for Fan Theories, The Overlords literally do nothing for the entire show, and Vaggie story is so poorly paced I don't even want to talk about it All of these characters suffer from the fact that they just don't have enough screen time to develop them beyond surface traits and fundamentals, it's just bad writing because Vizzie was scared In this day and age it's very easy for your show to be canceled on a whim, And with only 8 episodes, I can understand why she was so scared and tried to cram in as much as possible but that just ends up with the show being a mess Because the show's premise and characters should have been a slow burn story rather than something you could cram into 8 episodes
@@PinkPuff07 I mean, I don't really see the big deal of having Angel represent the hotel in episode 6. It makes sense to me given that Charlie is such a blind optimist that she would pick him when he's shown progress as of late, as was established in that episode. I don't see why we need to see him undergo significant change when that's not really what that episode was about. And besides, in that episode we do see Angel showing a protectiveness over Niffty, which is another aspect of character growth for him. I just don't get why none of this is sufficient for you not to call it bad writing. It's economical, but it does the job. I'm sure we have more development from him coming in season 2. Episodes 6 is not supposed to be the climax of his development. The show is ongoing. The overlords do nothing for the show? They do plenty. I actually thought the worldbuilding showing the politics of Hell was one of the more interesting aspects of the show, and their portrayal in episodes 2 and 3 does a good job at setting up what kind of life Husk must have had before selling his soul, so it helps make his character development efficient. Valentino is an overlord and he has a tremendous importance to Angel Dust's story, and seeing his circle and how they've set themselves apart from the other overlords in the city as a sort of renegade group is fascinating and serves as a good setup to more conflict in season 2, which is going to focus on the Vees. Alastor is supposed to be mysterious at this point in the series. It wouldn't be satisfying if we learned everything about him in season 1. Part of why he's interesting is the fact that he hides everything about himself and he never lets his guard down. You never see what's beneath that fake smile of his, and he even confides about that to Charlie in episode 7. The big questions of how evil he is, what his motivations really are, what his connection to Lilith is, etc. are better left unanswered in season 1. I get wanting a slower story, but I think it's totally unfair to say that the story we got was incompetent. It checks most of the boxes for good storytelling in my opinion.
@@PinkPuff07 How is the character development OR story development bad at all or poorly written? It really wasn't. He was developed enough for a first season though. No he doesn't act the same how does he? He stops harassing Husk at that point. It is enough when he slows clear change and improvement still. I mean it's both...it starts his development and see that expanded more in episode 6. That's not the worts part that is good and makes sense really. No Alastor helps out and gives some lore tidbits and plays a clear role and is planning something. No the Overlords do do stuff and help tell us how Hell works and operates and of course Overlords like the Vees and Carmilla have their roles in the plot too. Vaggie's story isn't all that poorly paced though. Except they do have enough creen time to develop them beyond surface traits and fundamentals or at least most do, it's not bad wriitng though and you can't even give an example to prove how it is bad writing or to prove your point really, and no Vivzie isn't scared. I mean not everything was crammed into 8 episodes and there still is some slow burn stuff like Angel's character development really.
i really disagree with your take on stereotypes and representation, i don't think people who rag on characters for being "bad rep" are tokenizing them, or getting mad they're not perfection, "good rep" is often just seen as.. a well written character. and i do feel like how you write for example, a marginalized/often misunderstood kind of person does reflect on you, the writer. Say someone portrays a black person in a played out way with racist undertones, it's understandable for people to be upset at that as history has shown that this portrayal of black people in media is unneccasarily cruel and adds to the cesspool of minorities being JUST stereotypes instead of characters that can stand on their own. stereotypes "holding some truth" just gets to the point where people are slapping stereotypes about a certain group onto a character and calling it a day without using common sense when it comes to writing, and that's tiring to see. i dont think it's too much to ask for writers to try and avoid leaning on these stereotypes as i just see it as lazy. its unfun to watch their interactions with others and usually makes them flat or takes away from other characters. with angel, i never hear anyone say "val isn't good queer rep!" because his behaviour is taken seriously by the narrative, angel gets whole song about it, but when its angel s/xually harrassing husk its played for jokes other than when it benefits ANGEL'S character development, and in those moments it's played for jokes im just flipping through everytime ive seen a flamboyant gay character harrassing/hitting on another character for comedic effect when in any other scenario it'd be taken seriously, and rolling my eyes cause hazbin is a super big leap for queerness/a male s/a victim being openly portrayed in animated adult media and this is what we're getting. thats where i personally see the bad writing shining through when it comes to stereotypes, it stifles the characters when unwanted s/xual advances is only taken seriously when it's happening to angel (an effeminate gay character) but then with husk (masc queer guy) it's not even given a second thought that he should be the one to chase after him when other characters are aware angel had been harrassing him as he worked multiple times. the only reason i can think for that is preconcieved biases. it's a double standard that if optics played a role mayybe they wouldve taken writing that part of angel more seriously, im not even saying the harrassment needs to be deleted or something. it just makes husk feel kind of hollow in comparison when his harrassment is casually mentioned or comepletely disregarded outside of furthering angel's redemption, their relationship come off as rushed/unearned, angel getting nothing but a slap on the wrist and a new friend as consequences. It all just makes me feel that angel could be written better as he should be on the same standard as any other character even if he's gay.
I don't know much about representation. But I kinda agree with you what you said. But this video and what he saying some weird shit and sometime he confront himself. Which genuinely shows his true Ego of himself.
@@styckzii I don't agree with any of this really. I don't think it's a problem that Angel's behavior is played for laughs. I don't think his behavior actually matters much to Husk. It's not like he's in pain over Angel sexually harassing him or anything. In that one episode, Angel was feeling particularly anxious, and so he kept pushing, and eventually pushed him to his breaking point and got him to blow up in anger. To me, that's good storytelling. It establishes a premise when the stakes are low, and then as you learn more context about the situation, it develops naturally from comedy to drama, as it should. Lazy stereotypes are cringe, and I agree with that, but well-written characters that happen to also conform to stereotypes are not cringe, and I think Angel is the perfect example of that.
@foreverdirt1615 i think it is a problem when they play it for jokes then don't really address it. my point isnt that angel's development is written absolutely horrible and makes no sense. its that what the show is trying to push kind of comes across as hypocritical if they can't take pushing s/xual boundaries seriously when it comes to a character they're not focusing on, and it leaves angel's relationship with husk feeling unearned like i said, and angel's character feeling like its still missing reflection. it feels less like building off of stereotypes and more like leaning back on them when writing gets hard icl. i dont think it matters if husk really felt like it was a big deal, it was tonal whiplash to be shown he's uncomfortable with these advances multiple times, literally has to push angel off of him, then the episode end with them singing a duet and being bffs. which i get they bonded over both being under contracts but before loser baby husk has literally shown angel nothing but disdain for harrassing him and/or "being fake" so the switch is just "oh okay, they're friends now", i guess this can be a difference in opinion but that wasnt a well executed conclusion that rounded them both out fully
@styckzii Again i totally disagree. I think it was a perfectly executed arc. When it wasn't serious, they didn't take it seriously. When it became serious, they did take it seriously. I think it makes perfect sense why Husk would warm up to angel when he can see an opportunity to form a real connection, and he has been tasked with keeping Angel safe that night. It was kind of his job in that moment to say something to help him, and through helping Angel they were both able to heal their relationship. All of it feels totally natural to me and not jarring at all.
Something that uspets me to no end is when people say you can't sexualize people who've been through abuse WHEN A VERY PROMINENT SYMPTOM OF ABUSE IS HYPERSEXUALIZATION. Angel dust actually has so much character development just throughout the first season that he just completely ignores
First of all, no he doesn't, And this isn't a symptom of his character but every single character in Hazbin hotel is developed in the most poor way possible and it has to do with a mix of vizzy's incompetence in writing and the very strict runtime they have
Yes The episode focusing on him is really good and setting up the fundamentals, but the issue with that, is that that's all it is. Past that episode he doesn't get any meaningful development and goes back to acting the same way he was.
There is no long-lasting development that he or any of the other characters react to Because it never gets expanded upon, which is jarring because by the climax Charlie chooses him to be the representative of change in hell which would have been a cool idea if he had actually changed and grown as a person
This is due to a mix of vizzies incompetence in writing, How she butchered the entire premise and a lot of the development of the characters and the fact that with only eight episodes there is so little to do but at the same time she could have made it work if her writing was better and sadly it wasn't leaving angel dust and most of the characters very underdeveloped
@@PinkPuff07 There are time jumps that are put in place to get the season to the planned end point in only 8 episodes, but I don't think this means the characters are poorly written. It's the story structuring that's the problem more than the character development. In the case of episode 6, which I wouldn't really characterize at the climax of the season, we're supposed to take for granted that after Loser, Baby, Angel Dust becomes more committed to salvation, hence the establishing dialogue between him and Husk at the sex club. It's fast and economical, but it's not exactly missing any key information. There are no plot holes in Angel's development. It's just the sort of thing where if they had moved episode 6 to the end of the season, it would have given them a better canvas on which to develop things. He doesn't go back to acting the same way he was, as you claim, but he's not given much screen time past the midway point except for episode 6, so the writers were working with very little. One of the few times we see him have a meaningful moment is in episode 8 when he decides to spend the night talking with Husk, saying "you fucked one cannibal pool boy, you've fucked them all." It does indicate that he's found a connection in Husk and doesn't just want to spend his last night partying, which is indeed character development.
I think a lot of the criticism of the writing on this show has been overblown or just not accurate, although there definitely are flaws.
@@foreverdirt1615 I think the character development is equally as bad as the story development because again it's just poorly written
Everything you said is correct and valid but my issue is not that he isn't developed but just how little he was developed.
Again even after his episode, He still acts the same. Yes, his dynamic with another character changed but that isn't enough to justify his importance later on being the representative of reformed people from hell. That episode should have been fundamentals of his development being formed and not the actual development itself. The worst part is that he got it better off most of the characters: Alastor is just there to say cryptic shit and give fuel for Fan Theories, The Overlords literally do nothing for the entire show, and Vaggie story is so poorly paced I don't even want to talk about it
All of these characters suffer from the fact that they just don't have enough screen time to develop them beyond surface traits and fundamentals, it's just bad writing because Vizzie was scared
In this day and age it's very easy for your show to be canceled on a whim, And with only 8 episodes, I can understand why she was so scared and tried to cram in as much as possible but that just ends up with the show being a mess Because the show's premise and characters should have been a slow burn story rather than something you could cram into 8 episodes
@@PinkPuff07 I mean, I don't really see the big deal of having Angel represent the hotel in episode 6. It makes sense to me given that Charlie is such a blind optimist that she would pick him when he's shown progress as of late, as was established in that episode. I don't see why we need to see him undergo significant change when that's not really what that episode was about. And besides, in that episode we do see Angel showing a protectiveness over Niffty, which is another aspect of character growth for him.
I just don't get why none of this is sufficient for you not to call it bad writing. It's economical, but it does the job. I'm sure we have more development from him coming in season 2. Episodes 6 is not supposed to be the climax of his development. The show is ongoing.
The overlords do nothing for the show? They do plenty. I actually thought the worldbuilding showing the politics of Hell was one of the more interesting aspects of the show, and their portrayal in episodes 2 and 3 does a good job at setting up what kind of life Husk must have had before selling his soul, so it helps make his character development efficient. Valentino is an overlord and he has a tremendous importance to Angel Dust's story, and seeing his circle and how they've set themselves apart from the other overlords in the city as a sort of renegade group is fascinating and serves as a good setup to more conflict in season 2, which is going to focus on the Vees.
Alastor is supposed to be mysterious at this point in the series. It wouldn't be satisfying if we learned everything about him in season 1. Part of why he's interesting is the fact that he hides everything about himself and he never lets his guard down. You never see what's beneath that fake smile of his, and he even confides about that to Charlie in episode 7. The big questions of how evil he is, what his motivations really are, what his connection to Lilith is, etc. are better left unanswered in season 1.
I get wanting a slower story, but I think it's totally unfair to say that the story we got was incompetent. It checks most of the boxes for good storytelling in my opinion.
@@PinkPuff07 How is the character development OR story development bad at all or poorly written? It really wasn't.
He was developed enough for a first season though.
No he doesn't act the same how does he? He stops harassing Husk at that point. It is enough when he slows clear change and improvement still. I mean it's both...it starts his development and see that expanded more in episode 6. That's not the worts part that is good and makes sense really. No Alastor helps out and gives some lore tidbits and plays a clear role and is planning something. No the Overlords do do stuff and help tell us how Hell works and operates and of course Overlords like the Vees and Carmilla have their roles in the plot too. Vaggie's story isn't all that poorly paced though.
Except they do have enough creen time to develop them beyond surface traits and fundamentals or at least most do, it's not bad wriitng though and you can't even give an example to prove how it is bad writing or to prove your point really, and no Vivzie isn't scared.
I mean not everything was crammed into 8 episodes and there still is some slow burn stuff like Angel's character development really.
fully agree w vid so far but was not expecting the straight up hard r n word looool
or admitting to having a grape fetish
we go hard on this channel.
i really disagree with your take on stereotypes and representation, i don't think people who rag on characters for being "bad rep" are tokenizing them, or getting mad they're not perfection, "good rep" is often just seen as.. a well written character. and i do feel like how you write for example, a marginalized/often misunderstood kind of person does reflect on you, the writer. Say someone portrays a black person in a played out way with racist undertones, it's understandable for people to be upset at that as history has shown that this portrayal of black people in media is unneccasarily cruel and adds to the cesspool of minorities being JUST stereotypes instead of characters that can stand on their own. stereotypes "holding some truth" just gets to the point where people are slapping stereotypes about a certain group onto a character and calling it a day without using common sense when it comes to writing, and that's tiring to see. i dont think it's too much to ask for writers to try and avoid leaning on these stereotypes as i just see it as lazy. its unfun to watch their interactions with others and usually makes them flat or takes away from other characters.
with angel, i never hear anyone say "val isn't good queer rep!" because his behaviour is taken seriously by the narrative, angel gets whole song about it, but when its angel s/xually harrassing husk its played for jokes other than when it benefits ANGEL'S character development, and in those moments it's played for jokes im just flipping through everytime ive seen a flamboyant gay character harrassing/hitting on another character for comedic effect when in any other scenario it'd be taken seriously, and rolling my eyes cause hazbin is a super big leap for queerness/a male s/a victim being openly portrayed in animated adult media and this is what we're getting. thats where i personally see the bad writing shining through when it comes to stereotypes, it stifles the characters when unwanted s/xual advances is only taken seriously when it's happening to angel (an effeminate gay character) but then with husk (masc queer guy) it's not even given a second thought that he should be the one to chase after him when other characters are aware angel had been harrassing him as he worked multiple times. the only reason i can think for that is preconcieved biases. it's a double standard that if optics played a role mayybe they wouldve taken writing that part of angel more seriously, im not even saying the harrassment needs to be deleted or something. it just makes husk feel kind of hollow in comparison when his harrassment is casually mentioned or comepletely disregarded outside of furthering angel's redemption, their relationship come off as rushed/unearned, angel getting nothing but a slap on the wrist and a new friend as consequences. It all just makes me feel that angel could be written better as he should be on the same standard as any other character even if he's gay.
I don't know much about representation. But I kinda agree with you what you said. But this video and what he saying some weird shit and sometime he confront himself. Which genuinely shows his true Ego of himself.
@@styckzii I don't agree with any of this really. I don't think it's a problem that Angel's behavior is played for laughs. I don't think his behavior actually matters much to Husk. It's not like he's in pain over Angel sexually harassing him or anything. In that one episode, Angel was feeling particularly anxious, and so he kept pushing, and eventually pushed him to his breaking point and got him to blow up in anger. To me, that's good storytelling. It establishes a premise when the stakes are low, and then as you learn more context about the situation, it develops naturally from comedy to drama, as it should.
Lazy stereotypes are cringe, and I agree with that, but well-written characters that happen to also conform to stereotypes are not cringe, and I think Angel is the perfect example of that.
@foreverdirt1615 i think it is a problem when they play it for jokes then don't really address it. my point isnt that angel's development is written absolutely horrible and makes no sense. its that what the show is trying to push kind of comes across as hypocritical if they can't take pushing s/xual boundaries seriously when it comes to a character they're not focusing on, and it leaves angel's relationship with husk feeling unearned like i said, and angel's character feeling like its still missing reflection. it feels less like building off of stereotypes and more like leaning back on them
when writing gets hard icl.
i dont think it matters if husk really felt like it was a big deal, it was tonal whiplash to be shown he's uncomfortable with these advances multiple times, literally has to push angel off of him, then the episode end with them singing a duet and being bffs. which i get they bonded over both being under contracts but before loser baby husk has literally shown angel nothing but disdain for harrassing him and/or "being fake" so the switch is just "oh okay, they're friends now", i guess this can be a difference in opinion but that wasnt a well executed conclusion that rounded them both out fully
@styckzii Again i totally disagree. I think it was a perfectly executed arc. When it wasn't serious, they didn't take it seriously. When it became serious, they did take it seriously. I think it makes perfect sense why Husk would warm up to angel when he can see an opportunity to form a real connection, and he has been tasked with keeping Angel safe that night. It was kind of his job in that moment to say something to help him, and through helping Angel they were both able to heal their relationship. All of it feels totally natural to me and not jarring at all.
@@foreverdirt1615 bro I think you are simp for everything with creators of writing the storytelling.
a little too mean but mostly based
I LOVE LOVE THIS