Part One: The Parenting Gurus of Nazi Germany | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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- Опубліковано 6 тра 2024
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Part One: The Parenting Gurus of Nazi Germany | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert sits down with Margaret killjoy to talk about Moritz Schreber, the pseudo scientific parenting guru who strapped children into torture devices and helped prepare Germany for the Nazis.
(4 Part Series)
Original Air Date: May 7, 2024
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
New episodes twice a week on iHeartRadio.
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Ruby Franke's five-year-old not only had to remember her lunch, she had to MAKE it. Ruby's video expressing the wish that no one at the school give her food is enough to prove she's a monster.
absolutely. as a teacher, I am often mortified by some of these family vloggers. and it's insane to me that apparently in the US parents in the US can upload videos of their abuse and neglect for years, with tons of viewers, without anyone stepping in until it's too late.
here in switzerland, we would first talk to the parents and try to educate them about what they are doing. and if they keep doing it, the law steps in.
of course children in by far most cases should be left with their parents but there are absolutely cases where they need to be saved.
Laying Prone is on your stomach, laying on your back is Laying Supine.
I'm so sorry, but I am constitutionally unable to let that common mistake go. I'm working on it, and maybe someday I can move past it and live a full and meaningful life.
as the saying goes: laying supine is on your spine, laying prone is on your pronis
You adjusted your posture.
Hey you are the good kind of pedantic
Word meanings are...meaningful 😊 Keep fighting the good fight.
It's okay I'm the same way when people misuse the word "electrocution"
Fun fact: Mormons used a version of this guys child rearing technique up until the 80s.
If they were using it in the 80s they're sure as hell still using it now.
@@alexcarter8807 yeah that seems waaay too progressive for mormons a people adverse to good ideas
@@alexcarter8807 Ruby Franke, the mommy influencer mentioned at the start, is Mormon. So, yeah...
Fun fact: if you listen on other platforms, Robert reads BetterHelp ads, which would be... iffy, but fine, if your network is forcing you to and unwisely you gave them some rights to your show, and now you're kinda stuck, which i'm willing to assume. But he doesn't just read generic ad copy but gives a personal anecdote about how therapy helped him. He doesn't quite claim BetterHelp specifically helped him or that it's good, or personally endorse it in his own words, but he certainly abuts that line intimately. Seems a strange thing to do for someone who espouses a sense of journalistic ethics in various ways and talks about bastards.
I'd say nothing if an ad in someone else's voice for whatever ran. Sure, they have no control over that. You damn sure have control over what ads are read in your own voice and include personal, emotional anecdotes which lead people to sign up for a data-selling scam exploiting people when they're most vulnerable.
It makes the "we don't control what ads run" excuse i've heard about the white supremacist coffee or whatever ring kinda hollow at that point, really. Clearly you don't care much what ads run if you're willing to voice those ads.
As a person with ADHD, I think those posture correction devices sound like my worst nightmare.
Agreed
"What's philiaing my-"
"Robert, NO!"
The most confusing thing to me about these kind of parenting manuals is this: don't the parents reading it ever think "wait, I wasn't raised this way, but I turned it okay so this must be BS"?
well, most of the parents back then grew up a lot more physically active as they had to work the farms and such. so it make sense they would think their children need something extra to make up for the lack of excercise.
also, a lot of people at the time did in fact suffer heavily from physical issues, often caused by childhood malnoutrition and overwork. so, a lot of them wanted their children to have it better. and they had no idea how to achieve that
Margaret killjoy stands like a jojo character
Just starting the podcast, I know you're going to cite Alice Miller. She wrote a telling book on toxic parenting focusing on Germany. For Your Own Good is definitely a seminal text on the topic.
Came here to recommend Alice Miller
I had the luck of growing up with a very caring father but the strictness and suppression of weakness is something that is still to a degree baked into the German way of child raising. Phrases like "Bist du Mann oder Maus" (Are you a man or a mouse) or "Ein Indianer kennt keinen Schmerz" (Indians know no pain) were very common when I was a kid for me and others. And though it was not meant to a degree like it used to it still has an impact on children and on showing emotions and weakness to themselves and others.
And worse, mice are cute, why?? but yeah the not showing, god knows it has still an impact today, imagine we have the more weimar exploring emotional openness, , or emos and goths, which is healthy.
i bet that "indians know no pain" thing is related to the weird german fascination with native americans, and their very very unrealistic ideas of them.
Thank god we would never have pseudo-science today..
We call it "holistic remedies" these days :P
And child abusive education is not sticking around somehow, or like thinking demons make children misbehave or something
Not quite dino sized but if your looking for giant cows check out the Bantäng. Bovine species from India, bulls can get up to 9200lbs.
Margaret was completely correct. I immediately sat up straighter when you were mentioning posture, even though i think i heard that theres a new research saying slouching isn't as bad as we've been told. It was a very brief wait wait dont tell me question, so im not sure if i heard it correctly.
i think a lot is really about confidence too and, probably a social construct. Like does it make feel more confident in a lot situations, maybe, but thats probably a social construct.
That one of Kurt Vonnegut's kids was also my pediatrician until I was 12. Dr. Mark was a great guy, and if anyone gets the chance, I really recommend looking up both his books on the topic, "Eden Express" and "Just Like Someone Without Mental Illness, Only More So." They are both moving, informative, and also at times laugh-out-loud hilarious.
I didn't know he's written a 2nd book ... I'll keep an eye out for it.
20:49 I literally stopped in the street and cracked my back
take note: if you want a kid to grow up hating Authoritarianism have him be raised by a guy who treated his kids and step kids like soldiers constantly telling the to set up straight
Not gonna lie... Those "remedial exercises" still sound less abusive than letting a chiropractor "adjust" your kid's growing spine!!
Have you listened to the episode about chiropractors? Cause it basically is a pseudoscience
@@cassiemoyles4177 I haven't yet, but I know what I'll be listening to this week at work! 😁
Hilariously I got an ad on this video for some fake shit about correcting sleeping posture
Are you all the way caught up with uploading past episodes? I've been starved for more BTB showing up in my feed.
Alas, I think they are
@@Daedalus117 they aren't...
there's a lot of partial series still...
@@William-Morey-Bakerwait really? I haven't noticed any. I guess I'll have to go back and check
I know that they skipped part 2 of the forensic science one, for some reason, cause that one is out on iheartradio
His dad just died. I think he's entitled to time off.
I think the reference to hallucinatiins as miracles is a kind of translation quirk where the word for miracle, Wunder, can also be associated with mental illness in the German language.
That makes sense. I mean, especially considering the general cultural overlap between Joan of Arc kind of visions & what we would now call hallucinations.
Guten Tag Robert, Hoffe Sie haben einen wunderbaren Tag, Robert. Wunderbar sie zu hören, Robert. Bleiben Sie dran an ihrer grossartigen Arbeit, Robert! :P
I would have been so cooked with my godawful autism posture
I saw the topic and was hoping it's an upload of an older episode, so I could listen to all the parts at once. But, alas it's new. I'll have to wait
For what it's worth, Robert mentions around 4:28 that he knows a lot of listeners like to wait for all the episodes to come out to listen to them together and he says this series has multiple connected stories in it so it may not be necessary to do so. It sounds like it's more about a topic rather than a linear plot? Not that you need to change anything about your listening habits, but Robert does acknowledge that :)
Some kraut from the 1800s with OCD is the reason I got pestered for slouching. Well I can't say I'm surprised.
Such a german thing to do
Suddenly the German Fetish Trope makes WAY more sense.
I was just about to say the same thing. That and so many other things...
I mean, if people are into getting spanked as adults, I can't even fathom the kinky stuff that adults who were strapped into literal torture devices as children would be into.
Actually, yes I can, never mind.
yep, hearing about these devices and going "yeah that sounds like something my SO would want to be put in...ah, so that's why Germany is like that."
Only 4 parts.. so 2/3 on the Kissinger scale..
The normal way top stand is however you feel comfortable standing. Your body will tell your brain when its time to switch legs. You will hardly ever be consciously aware of when you are shifting your weight or posture. The things that contribute to bad posture are mostly about your enviroment and tools rather than your natural body position. Standard keyboards, gaming chairs, monitor hieght, car seats, and hard school desks are major contributors.
I think the recommanded thing there is even, it has very little to do with posture, but literally, do regular rests for the eyes and basically strech, the problem is more that you can get stuck in a position so strechingand standing and xhangin a bit, is the actual thinghelping.
Ok with children its probably more, maybe give kids room to move around a bit while in school that they actually can let out energy and even learn moving around. While learning too to sit down if they have to, but too, let them waste energy enough.
Ands just be more interesting , vivid and engaging that its not too dry. Because chiuldren are knowledge sponges , but also, you have to have their attention and get a bit of a hook ideally that they are interested.
Hell the best educated always use a hook to show a topic is acxtually relevant and can be interesting and then go on the more dry stuff. Children are sponges , if you get a way to engage them in the first place. in some way with a topic.
Like history, can it have dry parts, but its also really interesting and people in their free time hear a historian tell fun interesting if horrible stuff on a podcast, because its made more relatable direct toa thing people find interesting, not lead with the drier stuff.
Guys, Benjamin Spock published his big book on baby and child care in 1946, long before Star Trek. My Mum still had a copy when I was little in the 1970s, but by then it was a bit old-fashioned. In an episode of Rumpole of the Bailey broadcast in 1979, Claude says to his girlfriend, whom he has got pregnant, "Dr. Spock is almost totally outdated now"-although in fact many of his ideas are still current. On the 'accidentally killing' babies front, Spock was guilty of saying that babies sleep better on their bellies (prone) rather than on their backs (supine)-but it has since become clear that lying a baby face down increases the risk of Sudden Infant Death!
Well i got an ad for a german Physiotherapie clinic.
What a story
Shame he didn’t get a singing nanny from the local convent.
So after the fall of fascism in Italy there were several new educational philosophies that developed, predominantly Montessori and Reggio Emillia, which are fundamentally focused on the view of children as full human beings who should be respected as individuals. Hopefully whoever read these books learned from them.
Montessori, it's like Steiner but without all the esetorics and proto facism
I would love an investigation into how, if at all, these ideas influenced Joseph Pilates and Reformers!
Oh, I think Robert is building up to Helmut Kentler here. 😬 Eeesh, that man truly was a real-life version of the worst homophobic prejudices one can imagine.
So, I don't know how deep Robert dug into Ruby Franke, but if he feels like being depre-I mean, finding out how some familiar beats intersect, well, it turns out part of that older son's "disappearance" was to a teen wilderness camp. I thiiiiink it was Anasazi but it could have been a different one. (It was either The Right Opinion or J Aubrey who went more into that. Swoop also had a doc, though for a more in depth take on a lot of the Mormon elements of the abuse, Jordan and McKay have covered a fair amount of what happened.)
Infodumping aside, I too believe spears and other more ranged pointed sticks are far superior in battle even if swords have a fun elegance to them.
Robert Evans stop lying. That was a great way to start a podcast.
I thought contrapasta was Italian food
So glad to hear some spear love at the end there, reach is supreme!
I want a link to the picture!
the community a gardens are still quite popular. in switzerland we call them Schrebergarten but in germany most people today call it "Kleingartenanlage". (small garden facility)
the Schrebergarten isn't exactly like what you think of when you hear communal garden. it's not a garden that a community works on together. it's more like a bunch of small gardens, each having it's own owner/tenant and the gardeners are organised in a community to set rules and so on. basically a HOA for just gardens.
it's very popular in cities because people often don't have gardens next to their homes, so some of them rent a small garden on the edge of the city to spend weekends on and such.
these small gardens often have a little hut on them ik which you can't really live but sleeping a night or two is fine
I've been reading quite a lot about the politics of childhood and the notion of the need to 'train up' children in various cultures recently, and I'm not entirely sure that we don't have a similar problem in our society. For example, a couple of times here we see children described as moving around a lot because they're 'not yet in control of their bodies', but I think it can be a bit problematic to assume that adults are a good example of how a body should move. Rather I think adults often have a very specific and stilted form of movement, resultant from the pressure in schools and work place environments to remain still, or to present their bodies in particular ways, and conversely even very young children manouver their bodies in ways impacted by society. I think combining Lesko's Act Your Age (for its analysis of school as a frequently carceral structure, operating on 'panopticon time' in which children are expected to always be disciplined, and even momentary lapses are judged as morally significant violations) with Bradley's Visions of Infancy (which tracks scientific and psychological interest in infants to show how they are often coloured by political histories and used as convenient tools for regulation of people, while suggesting that infancy is a period not of naturalness, but of still being embedded in culture) can demonstrate this relation of culture to movement quite well, and in fact we could take this further with Feldman-Barrett's 'How emotions are made' to suggest that by the time a baby can make facial expressions, they are already engaging in a cultural mapping of their body to expectations, which are then influenced less by 'natural' development but more by the changing cultural spaces they move into as children (school, public space) and adults (work, universities, public space as an adult) which need to be re-responded to in different ways.
Also, more anecdotally I have a mild case of cerebral palsy and a kind of erratic tremour in my left arm (the hand I write with). Since these sort of symptoms rarely get mentioned in text books, but I've seen other people with cerebral palsy discuss them, I've always wondered if the ocassional thrashing moments my arm does are a product of my withered shoulder, or more a product of the fact that my disability has let me escape the language of 'sit still' and 'stop fidgetting' that impacts most people growing up.
And we could talk about how the notion of 'fidgetting' pathologises movement, which is continued into discussions of ergonomic design as typified by the focus on the still, diagramatic body too, but this is probably more in depth and needs studies I haven't done.
I'm really enjoying this. Histories like this are brilliant for getting us to think more about the way we relate with our society and the sciences that travel through and around it, for their cultural positions, actions, practices and biases. Good stuff.
Shreber sounds like Shredder and I'm convinced that they would have loved each other's tactics 😂😢
Here's a comment I accidentally left on the new SMN episode that I had queued in another tab while I was listening to this one:
I had one of those "figure-8 braces" when I was a kid and I broke my collarbone, everybody asked me what was wrong with my back. I seem to recall it not being terrible for its purpose at the time.
Guten tag!
this makes me wonder how much of genetic developmental and psychological things like autism is based on genes and how much is based on traditions like parenting this way
POSTURE CHECK
Where are the notes for each episode now? I know the website is gone so do we just not get to see the pictures now?
So you're saying that nazism is _fascism with german characteristics_ ? :D
Actually, hallucinatory fantasies seems like a good definition of "miracles."
Sounds like Margaret was welcomed across the border by Hans Grosse.
In an alternate universe one of this guy's sons became Godfrey in Poor Things.
Oh god, I think I know what next week is...
Spock DID not have his shit together. He's fucking nuts. He just looks like he has his shit together.
i know it's spelled Franke but it's pronounced Frankie
.... Why did I just hear, "Oops, all pedophiles?"
I feel like I know what the paranoid dude was going through 😔
Good, the guest is team stick. Yess spears.
Why *do* the Germans be like that, though?
2:28 The thirty years war
@0:05 FAAAAARK.....HEADPHONE warning please
Holy shit I think this podcast just saved me from ciratica
Please read The works of Alice Miller on the history of pedagogy and child rearing techniques in the western world and how authoritarian and damaging they have been since biblical times.
Also I know there's the usual behind the bastards prejudice against non-modern practices and peoples but it's worth noting that it's not true that parents have always done bad cruel things to their kids until modern enlightenment came along. What we could refer to, as a convenient shorthand, as "pedagogy" among foraging peoples is known to differ greatly from the canonical models of the West.
No wonder Germany is the epicenter of bdsm😂
Have you *heard* German porn? Those people are weird.
I wanna know if there's a podcast out there that does this... But with the opposite of bastards.
Like, "behind the good guys."
Oh, so like a podcast about Cool People Who Did Cool Things?
Somebody oughta make that.
it's this one in the last week of December.
@@youmukonpaku3168 I found that one too.
Loved it.
on the one hand i love when margaret is on but also i saw the title of this one.....
Haven't read other comments yet, so it may have been addressed already.
Ruby Frank-E. The E is pronounced at the end of her last name. That's a minor bit though (no pun intended).
She was convinced to separate from her husband by her "business associate", Jodi Hildebrandt, who convinced Ruby and her husband that he was a chronic sinner. They are all Mormon, so there was some big religious influence in the mix there. There were already some questionable parenting practices going on before Jodi came along, but from what reports have come out, Jodi got Ruby whipped up into thinking that the two youngest were constantly sinning beyond repair, thus needing to be constantly punished.
Some dark shit went down.
i should really be watching these on my laptop so i can like and comment and such but i like listening to em on commutes or when doing chores so it's usually on my phone where i am not logged in cause honestly who has the time.
anyways. this morning i woke up and for whatever reason one of the first thoughts in my head was "i remember reading somewhere that the school in the show bluey, is apparently based on a waldorf/steiner school." and i had no idea what that was so i did a bit of research.
to get to my point quicker it's a style of schooling founded by a guy named Rudolf Joseph Lorenz Steiner. he was austrian but a lot of his ideas resonated with a particular movement mostly in germany in the early 1900's. so you know where this is going.
much like the subject of this episode i don't think he was entirely a bastard but he had some fucked up ideas about race, which are more outwardly patronizing than hateful, but still racist.
Steiner was focused on a more holistic and spiritual method of child education, with a focus on play and social skills rather than math/science/writing that a typical school is geared towards.
And this brings me back to Bluey. this silly little rectangle dog show lives in my head rent free and it's well known now that Bluey has a lot of good lessons not just for children but for their parents. And there are ideas on how kids think and how they should be treated that i think are overall good.
But it just nags at me a little that the bluey show creators chose to specifically use a steiner school. this is based on Joe Brum (series creator) 's own experience for his kids. The older of them had difficulty adapting to a traditional school environment so he ended up enrolling them in a steiner style school, as he has stated in interviews.
i'm not sure ultimately where i'm going with this. i think maybe, it's just a little uneasy feeling that since bluey is so popular that more people may end up sending their kids to these schools. and while many good organizations today have had problematic beginnings or founders, this model of schooling does implement the philosophies that Steiner held. i think i'm just rambling now. i need to read more on this.
my point i guess with this long winded comment is that like Schreber, Steiner was a guy with good intentions but deeply flawed methods/ideas.
Touch grass man! 😊
Freud's obsession with sex & stages of childhood makes so much more sense now. Yeesh.
It's just a fact that children experience stages of sexual development though.
Silent podcast
What if a podcast tried to be a podcast and failed?
I just wanna say, I am a fascist, though I do not support the German type discovered here, and I LOVE your pod. We do have many similar enemies even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.
Lmao, at least you're honest about it
@@perhaps1094 Why wouldn't I be?
@@albertomartinez714 Be for real lol. The term 'hiding your power level' exists for a reason. Most people aren't forthcoming with their politics on issues far less divisive than fascism.
@@perhaps1094 Oh, I get that. I'm not a politician, though, so I have no reason to hide it. I wouldn't really tell those around me about it either because it's so stigmatized to be a fascist in American culture. And I have a common enough name that you probably wouldn't be able to find me from my screenname.