Hello friend, yes, that's what I'm planning to post soon. I was checking my stock of catalysts today. Making a cell requires some other elements that I am already providing as well. Wait for news soon!
That would be great, this is already a big step and over 70% of the work done, to make an ion-permeable membrane, congratulations on your success, I take my hat off to this guy :) Go ahead
@@jonasmodie3608 I see and note that it is a great passion and excitement to make a fuel cell at home. Well, yes, because it will really be the career of the future very soon, which is on our doorstep, because the hydrogen transition is on the doorstep and as soon as the standard of electric cars falls, hydrogen will come on the scene, and hydrogen fuel cells. And that's where our story comes in, this is really great and I've been trying to make a fuel cell for a long time in my workshop without special equipment and machines. When I succeed in that, the next thing that will follow is a bicycle powered by hydrogen, with a fuel cell, and you can watch my channel where I presented the production of hydrogen gas by electrolysis of water, and storage in high-pressure cylinders :)
I really like this video. But I have a request. Can you remake this video with an in depth explanation of why you’re using the chemicals that you’re using and how it brings you one step closer to creating an ion exchange membrane?
I can think about doing this in future videos. In fact, this membrane belongs to a larger class of materials than hydrogels modified and functionalized to have this characteristic of ionic conductivity. So it can be done using other compounds, with stabilities at different pHs. They are used in many other applications besides fuel cells as well. At the time I was looking for alternative solutions to nafion and realized that this class of materials was very promising for this purpose.
Very nice video Daniel.... We encountered problems with our aqueous PVP and aqueous PVA mixtures. For this reason, we had a question for you. What are the mass ratios of PVP and PVA materials in aqueous PVP and aqueous PVA mixtures that make up the membrane?We will be glad if you answer.
The ration can be 1:1, but if you is having problems, start using just PVA. When you make the correct crosslink, add PVP in minor quantities and observe the results.
Daniel I apologize, I just started to be interested in fuel cells, the Russian-language UA-cam could not offer me any information, but I am grateful to you for your content. I do not quite understand how this membrane works, like a Nafion film? Or is it, roughly speaking, a gel electrolyte? If it works like a gel electrolyte, how often does an alkaline fuel cell need to be serviced, and how long can it actually operate on a given membrane without maintenance?
Congratulations on the success of the anion membrane formation. It is my great passion to buy all the chemicals needed as soon as possible and to start making them. I am very grateful for the nice explanation of how to make it. I have a question, have you tried the made anion membrane in electrolysis 20 -50 mA per square centimeter current density using KOH electrolyte. How durable is this kind of membrane for alkaline electrolysis?
Hello friend, thanks for the support, I'm going to make another video with the cell, I'm preparing the materials and I still need to publish other pending videos
Wow you made my day :) this was the missing last piece of my "know how" puzzle, now i can start constructing my hydrogen systems. Thank You Very Much for fantastic video. Ride on!!! Ill do castings, let me know if you need anything, as anodes or cathodes in specific alloys or shapes.
Hi Valands, sorry about my delay and thanks for your comments! I will post one video soon about how to construct the MEAs with more details. Thank you about you offer about anodes and cathodes, I will contact you if you need them ;)
Daniel, achei seu vídeo extremamente educativo, informativo e inspirador. Poderia me falar onde posso encontrar as referências bibliográficas? Sou estudante universitário e planejo reproduzir seu experimento e compará-la em ciclo convencional e reverso (funcionando com hidrogênio) com a eficiência da membrana Nafion. Além disso, gostaria de saber se tem referências sobre os catalizadores.
Oi Marcos td bem? Eu deixei a referência bibliográfica dessa membrana na descrição do vídeo. É bem interessante sua idéia, e se fizer o experimento e puder me dizer o resultado eu agradeço. Tem para vender os catalisadores, mas não achei no Brasil, ou você pode produzí-los, o que talvez seja interessante. Para hidrogênio, o catalisador mais clássico é o de platina sobre carbon. Existem alguns outros métodos como o de eletrodeposição que é bem eficiente, já que ele só deposita sobre os clusters ativos. A montagem da MEA é importante, pq no caso da Nafion vc pode utilizar o "hotpress", mas no caso dessa membrana, que é um hidrogel, vc vai ter que usar uma técnica um pouco diferente.
Olá, Daniel! Para utilizar essa membrana para eletrólise da água, é necessário a presenta de eletrólitos dissolvidos na água? Ou essa membrana já funciona como o próprio eletrólito sólido? Parabéns pelo vídeo!
Boa pergunta essa! Membranas trabalham de forma diferente dependendo da sua composição. No caso dessa aqui de hidrogel eu uso um sal (KOH) dissolvido. Isso pq a característica desse material é de facilitar o transporte de íos OH que já estão no eletrólito e tbém na membrana. Mesmo pq aqui eu preciso do meio "alcalino". No caso da Nafion por exemplo, em células eletrolisadoras, vc usa água destilada. As vezes vc escuta dizer que não é possível fazer eletrólise de água destilada, só que nesse tipo de célula, a membrana já atua com mobilidade de H+ na presença apenas de água. É claro que a platina vai ter o papel fundamental de "quebrar" a molécula de água, permitindo assim a eletrólise usando apenas água destilada.
Excelente video! te consulto por proveedores allá en Brasil, acá en Argentina no pude encontrar ni siquiera de Nafion, bueno de nuevo felicitaciones por el canal, muy interesante!.
@@olegdrobot8389 You know a lot of people have asked me that. I'm still going to put a lot of material on this subject. I haven't had much time lately. Here in my country I do some fuel cell assembly workshops, but I've never done one online, I can think about that in the future.
Hi Daniel...very informative video...how has this membrane performed so far? How would you compare it to the proprietary commercial membranes in terms of ionic conductivity and life?
I have membranes that have been stable in storage for over 9 years, but I don't know in operation what the durability would be. As for ionic conductivity they are very good, but still not as good as nafion. This is also due to the alkaline medium, which is a little different from acid. The main advantage is the cost per square meter, manufacturing with non-toxic ingredients and being able to use cheaper catalysts.
Doesn't the crosslinked polymer slowly degrade in highly acidic and basic aqueus conditions? I.e aren't we just reforming the gluteraldehyde as we submerge it in active water?
Daniel, que video maravilhoso! Você é sensacional. Fiquei bem curioso e queria explorar isso mais afundo, seria possível disponibilizar o artigo utilizado como base para essa síntese?
It looks like my Fumasep membrane i bought but mine in flat without dents. That could probably be fixed with a slight modification to the procedure. Nicely done. Have you made other types of membranes too? I check your other videos.
I found some interesting papers about this: "Direct-Ink-Write 3D Printing of Hydrogels into Biomimetic Soft Robots". This one use PVA with other chemicals and "Highly stretchable hydrogels for UV curing based high-resolution multimaterial 3D printing". Interesting stuff!
I half expected you to do a chemical "Cups and balls" magic routine when I saw the glass stir rod, the plastic cups and you tapping away on each of them! Seriously though, have you tried to put a fuel cell stack together with this material? Second question is "have you looked at halogen catalysts like Iodine" as an alternative to platinum? Great job with the membrane! Thanks Doug
Sir thank you for making this type of vedios. Sir this is my humble request you to sir. Sir please make a vedio on how to make a proton exchange membrane for PEM fuel cell.
Hi, thank you for watching. Yes, when I start to make videos I can make a video about this. I'm hard working this year and my time is a bit complicated.
Thanks for posting this video! Do you have any recommendations for making a cation exchange membrane using PVA? I have been doing crosslinking of PVA with phosphoric acid, urea and cellulose but I cannot seem to get permselectivity values above 50% (with 0.1M NaCl | 0.5M NaCl). Any suggestions would be appreciated!
Obrigado! Entrei no seu canal faz um tempo e está muito show de bola!! Tem poucos canais como o seu no Brasil, o primeiro que vi foi o NurdRage muito tempo atrás. Parabéns grande trabalho! Preciso melhorar os vídeos, e estou com menos tempo que no ano passado, mas ainda tenho bastante conteúdo pra colocar.
3 роки тому
@@danielrosselli Me sinto muito prestigiado pelo seu comentário! Tenha certeza que seu conteúdo é de grande utilidade e de qualidade de informação, isso que importa. Pode ter certeza que vou aguardar os próximos vídeos, esse tema me interessa bastante! Inclusive estava pesquisando aqui e vi um artigo que descrevia a metodologia que você reproduziu com maestria. Parabéns!
Doesn't the KOH lead to deesterification making the polymer decompose back into the pva? And that makes it water soluble. That's what Wikipedia says and it makes sense to me.
Hi, the scientific paper describing the process is the "Alkaline solid polymer electrolyte membranes based on structurally modified PVA/PVP with improved alkali stability". Search on google and I will find more answer.
Thank you for feedback! I never thought of a name. I tried other support materials like fabric, paper, fiberglass, but not pet. Paper is easy to make and works well
hello daniel, i know this is a little off topic, but is it possible to use this membrane for the electrolysis of sodium chloride solution? i'm really interested in making my own chemicals like naoh and hcl from household chemicals like table salt, and it would be really helpful if i could use such a membrane. alternatively i could use an agar salt bridge, but i wasn't able to find much information on how to make such a salt bridge. do you have any advise for me? i just don't know what would work best. edit: i think that for one of my current ideas i need an anion exchange membrane which blocks sodium and copper cations, but lets chloride anions pass. such a membrane couldn't be replaced with a salt bridge. for my other setups i *could* use an agar salt bridge, but as i said, i don't know whether this would be the best choice, especially since i dont know how chemically resistent agar and anion/cation exchange membranes are. sorry that i'm asking these millions of questions, i just don't know what to do...
Hi Stefanie, some people asked me about using this membrane in an chlor alkali environment. But others here have reported that it has completely degraded. So I believe that this membrane does not work for that. I personally haven't tested it. What I already did was use this membrane in an experiment with electrolytes with different pH and it degraded.
@@danielrosselli thanks so much! now i don't have to buy all these chemicals i would have needed to make such a membrane. sad that it doesn't work, but i can still use an agar salt bridge so i guess it'll work out.
Maybe you can try using it, but I guess have other chemicals too and can difficult ion transport. PVA alone don't have a better ionic transport if compared with other comercial membranes.
Boa Tarde Amigão Daniel vamos fazer membranas nafion!!👏👏👏👏 eu comprei aquela geleia coloridas que as crianças brincam para fazer oque Você falou como alternativas a pem mas tenho uma duvida que calsa ecos dentro de minha cabeça os eletrodos catodo e anodo da fuel cell são de metais diferentes? Exemplo Igual uma pilha química que é zinco e grafite ou os eletrodos da fuel cell são de mesmo material metálico ?
Boa tarde!! Hehehe sim, não diria que é nafion, mas membranas de hidrogel vc vai fazer! Aquele liquido do slime é PVA, só precisaria adicionar o PVP pra ter mais condução iônica, mas vai funcionar pra vc fazer os testes que precisar. O metal é do mesmo material (aqui eu uso tela de aço, pode usar tela de níquel ou outras), ele não é o anodo e catodo como nas baterias, não vai ter reação de redox, ele serve apenas para fazer contato com a MEA (aquela membrana central com os carvões pretos impregnados nos 2 lados). A reação da célula de combustível ocorre naqueles carvões (carbon black) e ele está impregnado com catalisador que vai quebrar as moléculas na reação e liberar os elétrons. É aquela parte da célula de combustível que é responsável por todo o processo. Aí cada combustível vai um catalisador que é melhor para cada caso. O de uso geral é a platina, mais usado também para comparar a eficiência com outros catalisadores. A pilha quimica é diferente já faz o redox direto dos metais.
@@danielrosselli sim entendo mas o catalisador platina + carbono vai só do lado do hidrogênio certo? E do lado da MEA que tem o carbono Preto que vai o oxigênio vai algum tipo de catalisador também? Eu posso usar cavao de núcleos de pilhas para fazer estes catalisador layes que vai dos dois lados da MEA ? Tenho aqui uma moeda de um peso que acredito ser de prata como fazer para obter o catalisador apartir dela eletrólise funcinaria '?
@@julhoponde1656 o carbon + platina pode ir nos 2 lados, pq a platina consegue catalisar as 2 reações, tanto do lado do hidrogênio quanto do oxygênio. Aliás, é o do lado do oxigênio que geralmente tem mais problemas. Agora para o uso em células alcalinas, existem outros catalisadores que são eficientes tbém, vc pode usar por exempĺo alguns óxidos, como o de manganês ou cobalto. A prata já usei mas oxidou rapidamente e não teve boa performance. Um catalisador para usar no lado do hidrogênio pode ser o níquel, ele funciona bem no meio alcalino. Lembre-se que a eficiência dos catalisadores também está relacionado ao tamanho das partículas, sendo os nanocatalisadores bem mais eficientes. Não testei usando carvão de pilha, ele tem dióxido de manganês eletrolítico, pode ser que funcione. Tem um artigo sobre esse manganês aqui se quiser dar uma olhada: pubs.rsc.org/en/content/getauthorversionpdf/C5RA05892A
@@danielrosselli obrigado vou dar uma olhada ' o niobio ou o tungstênio ou o titânio não são alternativas para usar como catalisador no lado ácido do oxigênio?
I THINK I understand correctly. So this brown membrane you created will pass OH- ions instead of H+ ions as with Nafion? Would the end result be the same? I want to make membranes to use in electrolyzers, not fuel cells. With Nafion, H+ ions migrate through the membrane and are met with electrons on the other side, producing H2 molecules, which exit and can be collected. With an alkaline membrane, what happens? OH- ions migrate through, leaving H+ ions behind and the hydrogen is produced at the opposite side?
Dear Daniel Rosselli, Have you tested the fuel cell using PVA/PVP MEMBRANE? What non PGM electrode catalysts may be used here? Do you have some videos and literature link regarding this? Eagerly waiting for your reply. Wishing the best.
Hi, yes my other videos that used alkaline electrolyte were using this membrane. I used it in the ethanol cell, in the zinc-air cell, etc. You can use nickel, cobalt, manganese, and other metals as electrocatalysts
is this membrane durable in highly alkaline KOH solution? I want to make a PEM electrolysis cell for hydrogen production, and use KOH as electrolyte , thanks for your excellent video, I hope it can solve my problem for water electrolysis,
Great video! It seems like gluteraldehyde it pretty hard to come by where I live -- is it possible to use other more readily available crosslinkers (such as borax) instead? Thanks!
In my country I get glutaraldehyde from hospital supply stores, or from stores that sell chemical products. Formaldehyde can crosslink, but it is more toxic. There are other ways to make PVA crosslink, borax can also work, it is used with PVA to make slime, but I don't know the result regarding ionic conditivity. There are gel-type membranes, so perhaps borax could serve as the basis for this type of membrane.
I was forgetting a more 'green' reagent, the citric acid! You can use it with PVA, heat it to about 140 degrees Celsius for 5 minutes. This will do the crosslink as well.
Thank you very much. you use pva and pvp and what is the result? I mean probably it's not pet? i ask because i think about to buy pipes to make membranes, therefore it would be usefull to know which material to use. Great Video. Thank you in advance.
Hi, this mixture is not the same as PET, this is another class of polymers. PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) is a polymer known and used in many mixtures including its ability to form hydrogels. PVP is another film maker. Its objective is to increase the ionic conductivity of PVA. The result is a hydrogel with more ionic conductivity.
Hello again... One more question appeared.... Do you somehow know, whether this membrane is selective permeable so that oh- can pass but for example chlorideions (cl-) are rejected?
Hi, I bought the chemicals a while ago, I know they are very cheap. I never did an exact calculation on this, but I believe it would be very little per square meter, maybe a few dollars or not even that.
hola Daniel gracias x tu videos , tengo el problema q a mi no me sale la textura q se ve en el video, y después cuando lo sumerjo en acetona puro, se desintegra. pero todo lo hago tal como indicas, o hay algo q estoy haciendo mal.....
@@robindavinci9646 Creo que es suficiente, si tienes dudas haz una medida para ver si ha bajado el pH. Entonces, si no es el pH, probablemente en la composición del PVA, o hay mucho PVP en relación con el PVA. El entrecruzamiento se realiza en PVA, el PVP sirve más para aumentar la conducción iónica, pero disminuye la resistencia mecánica y la propiedad de formación de gel.
Yes you can use 2.5% without problems. HCL are just a few drops to acidify. You can use other acids too, the important thing is to leave the pH of the solution acidic.
Hey, I really appreciate these videos and I'm really looking forward to seeing this assembled in a DIY cell. Maybe a bit OT but is it feasable to DIY such a fuel cell with self-electrolyzed hydrogen gas and replace the battery in EV conversion? In other words, how many Watts can you get out of this, with non-noble electrodes and just carbon cloth? Since typical EV motors I came across by some quick research require around 12kW for small builds.
Hello, yes my next video will be an ethanol fuel cell. I already did the experiment now I need to make the video. I plan on making a reversible hydrogen cell, but I'm out of platinum catalyst. For ethanol, I used platinum-ruthenium, but for hydrogen it is better to use only platinum. Hydrogen cells are now the most studied and developed, with catalysts even more efficient and cheaper than platinum. In alkaline cells you can test with more common metals, such as nickel, iron, cobalt, copper, etc ... I can't say how many cells would be needed for 12kW because it depends a lot on the efficiency that each cell can obtain. I never did the test using only carbon felt without catalyst. You have to test and see if it has any efficiency, but I think it will not yield much. If I do I post a video about it too.
Is it possible to use this membrane with for example nickel plate anode cathode and GDL? Also can electrodes be placed directly on membrane? How is in operation regarding hydrating this membrane?
Yes, is possible! There is many ways to assembly the cell, you need to pay attention about the electrolyte corrosion, for example, if you will use nickel, the fuel need to be compatible. In many commercial cells, nickel is used as current collector (or you can use entire nickel plate). And yes, you can place electrodes directly onto membrane contact.
Buenas Daniel! Excelente vídeo, no caso de uma aplicação que necessitasse de 25kW de potência gerando 350V, teria uma idéia de custos de fabricação da(s) célula(s)? (Pode ser o custo estimado por cm² e a área necessária para produzir essa potência nessa tensão) Muito obrigado!
Olá, não vi qual o combustível que vai usar nessa célula. Vou pensar que está usando uma clássica PEMFC. Nesse caso para essa voltagem seria preciso quase 584 células se usar o modelo em série de cada célula (considerei 0.6v por célula, mas isso pode variar tbém). Para 25kW seria preciso 72 amps x 350v. Para MEAs clássicas usando Nafion e platina o valor desse pack pode ficar muito caro.
Hello Daniel, If I let a membrane dry after making a membrane, can I use it dry in a hydrogen cell after a few weeks? or do I have to do a special procedure? Many greetings
Hi, yes you can let it dry, but it will wrinkle a little due to water loss. When using, you can rehydrate it using KOH solution (alkaline pH) or a saline solution (neutral pH). When it is dry it is mechanically stronger and does not break easily.
Hi Daniel. Cool Video! Do know a recipe for an Anion selective membrane that is stable in an acidic solution. I am looking for a cheap replacement for an AMI-7001 membrane. I thought of purolite a520e powder (chemicaly identical to AMI-7001) in a matrix of your crosslinked PVA/PVP polymer. Do you think that could work or could you try to create such a membrane?
Hi Daniel, yes, I already made a cationic membranes too, but I used other chemicals. The membrane of this video is not stable in acidic media. AMI-7001 is anionic, you could use this to substitute it, but the mechanical force can be a problem. In this case, you will need to use a matrix material like the AMI-7001. You could use for example woven, glass fiber, paper or others. So, you will impregnated the material with this resin (in this video) and make a crosslink. In my experiments I use paper for example, to increase the mechanical resistance. The membrane will be a little more resistive, but the practical application is more simple.
There are other ways to polymerize PVA, you can find it on google, because I haven't tested it. Formaldehyde also works, but it is more toxic than glutaraldehyde.
So you make the membrane is anion exchange but what about make it proton exchange? If i replace KOH in last step with acid like HCl or H2so4 does this make it a proton exchange membrane?
You don't need a laboratory to make this membrane, just some equipment. This is because these materials are not toxic, in fact they are even biocompatible depending on the crosslink. In the video I made a point of using only domestic equipment so that people see the possibility of doing it without too many problems. It is clear that if you have laboratory equipment it is easier, precision balance, heating table with stirrer. The result is much more accurate. But nothing prevents you from making a mixture like that at home. I even used an induction cooker that I have here. It takes a little work for you to mix the PVA in the water. The advantage is that PVA and PVP are cheap and easy to find. Hydrochloric acid which can sometimes be a problem, but can use other acids as well because its function is to lower the pH. I didn't make a paper about it, I used this: doi.org/10.1016/j.polymer.2010.08.018
@@danielrosselli how to avoid degrade the membrane? I Use 1:0.5 ratio of PVA and PVP-K 90 but it started degrading even in Cross link as well as KOH activation process. Even I changed the ratio of Glutaraldehyde as 5%, 2% and even 0.5% in crosslink preparation. follow up, I chanced the ratio of KOH as 1M and 0.1M but still it degrades. I haven't changed the ration of PVA/PVP
I don't know if there is a specific nitrogen exchange membrane. There are some ions that can be transported like sodium in the nasicon membranes. Perhaps this type of membrane can be modified for other ions. Hydrogel-type membranes, depending on their composition, can cause other ions to react inside the membrane (also depending on the type of electrolyte used) but their most standard application are cations and anions of type H and OH. I don't know what its application is, but anyway many tests would have to be done to confirm the possibility of selective nitrogen transport.
Yes you can, the difference is the internal chemistry, in this case this membrane is to alkaline fuel cell. So you combine hydrogen and oxygen to generate electrical energy, and the ionic transport is going to be OH- (anion exchange). In practice the result is the same, but the materials and internal chemistry are a little different. I'm going to show this in a future video and hope it gets clearer.
I have all ingredients to make this but one thing I can't find here, it's glutaraldehyde. I have it in solution of only 0.3%. Please, do you know any method to concentrate this from water solution to higher concentration. Does dehydration with for example CuSO4 works? Thanks!
Hi, I dont't know if CuSO4 can work, maybe you need to make a test. If you evaporate the water excess can help to improve the concentration. Or use the 0.3% and extend the time of crosslink. Maybe can work too. You can find glutaraldeyde 2% in medical products, they use it for desinfection.
Olá, sim ela pode substituir a nafion e tem o rendimento um pouco menor, porém aqui estamos falando de meio alcalino e isso muda a condutividade um pouco. Aqui vc tem a vantagem do preço e dos catalisadores mais baratos, dá pra compensar com uma área maior e assim mesmo manter o preço bem abaixo.
@@danielrosselli isso é muito legal, eu estava pesquisando a nafion na china e um pedaço de 10/10 cm custava mais de 300 reais, ja com esse metodo consegue-se fazer muito maior, vc ja pensou em fabricar celulas de combustíveis? Essa tecnologia me parece bastante promissora
@@csm-eletronica8181 Pois é, o preço é realmente muito alto. Membranas do tipo hidrogel são absurdamente mais baratas. Muda um pouco também a forma de montagem e fabricação das MEAs, isso pq a natureza dos materiais são um pouco diferentes, e é isso que quero mostrar em outros vídeos. Eu nunca pensei em fabricar, eu gosto da parte experimental dela, mas é possível. Antes da pandemia eu fiz um workshop, tipo uma oficina que eu ensinei uma galera a montar as células. Esse ano tive muitos compromissos no trabalho e não estou conseguindo gravar novos vídeos, espero continuar em breve, eu gosto bastante dessa área!
@@danielrosselli eu sou mais conhecedor no mundo da eletrônica queria ter a oportunidade de lhe perguntar se com esse tipo de membrana usando o mesmo metodo poderia ser feito membranas para equipamentos para a mediçao de oxigenio dissolvido na água, eu pesquisei um pouco e vi que as membranas usadas neles é uma membrana permeável a oxigênio, será que daria pra fazer utilizando esse mesmo método?
You can test with different molecular weights. PVP you can use K30 or K90 and find the correct ratio. It will increase the hydrophilicity and ionic transport but the membrane will be more fragile. Try 50/50 in the beginning and make some tests.
Hi, this one is to be used in alkaline environment. I will try to show a proton conductive membrane in others videos. (one of them is use phosphoric acid).
I don't know much about this area, but I believe it would break easily if any pressure is applied. There are some composite materials that can use the polymer within its matrix. Or use a ceramic matrix for example and fill your pores with hydrogel polymers. But I don't know if it works. Here is a article that reviews this area: "A Review on Current Development of Membranes for Oil Removal from Wastewaters"
I don't have instruments here to measure CO2 absorption, but I believe that if it exists it will be more related to the amount of water or electrolyte that the membrane retains, as is the case with Nafion. It is usually the solubility of co2 in the electrolyte that causes it to pass through the membrane. Studies show that PVA-based membranes have less permeability to methanol or ethanol for example. This is very good, and maybe it can retain co2 better too, but I can't say that.
There are some hydrogels that are more permissive to protons and you can create a membrane like that, I might make a video about that in the future. However, its ionic conductivity is not as efficient as nafion. The advantage is that they are much cheaper.
I would like to ask if this can replace nafion in a platinum based catalyst, or will it only work in alkaline fuel cell in the cell? And if this is the membrane is it surface rough enough for the platinum based catalyst ink to stick from something like an ultrasonic sprayer for instance?
Yes you can replace the nafion and use the platinum catalyst too. The difference is the use of an alkaline medium only. The techniques for impregnating the catalyst in the membrane are different because nafion is a thermoplastic and PVA no longer works that way. That is the subject of my next video that I am preparing. I will show you how to impregnate the membrane with a catalyst to form the MEA. This is because we cannot use the "hot-press" as done at nafion. And just deposit the catalyst on the surface of the membrane it will drop off. It must be fused to the surface of the membrane.
@@danielrosselli coollll. Subscribed and waiting. I am researching fuel cells but much of the research is arbitrary as cover nickel sheets in platinum and pasting nafion in between, I also found a paper where they use a nafion sheet covered with graphite sheet coated in ultrathin platinum. I am surprised how little published research there is, as people are developing methods and keeping it to themselves or keeping research private which I think is bad as I as a researcher have to come to the same conclusion again.
@@aayushgargofficial Yes I agree. I made this membrane a few years ago and I was surprised that after all this time there is still very little material about it. So during the pandemic I decided to recreate some experiments at home and started to see an interest in this subject. There is a lot of research on fuel cells but not everything is disclosed. And most are with nafion. Using hydrogels are few and they do not describe the whole process. But I think it is now possible to open some doors and if others also move forward we can raise some alternatives to the development of this area. And also bringing it closer to people, with more accessible and more "reproducible" material. I think it's really fun when I turn on the cell and watch it work!
Hi David, yes you can use this membrane to create a electrolyser, in this case, a alkaline electrolyser. It will separate the gases, one side h2 other site o2. You can recombine in the blowtorch because they will be in correct ratio. I will try to make a electrolyser and post a video. I don't have platinum anymore, but maybe I can try other catalysts and see the results. Even if I use only carbon I know it works, it just won't be as efficient as using platinum or other catalysts, but it would be enough to build the electrolyser. I found a paper these days using cobalt with other non-noble metals using in alkaline cell.
Hola amigo Daniel. Me gustaría escribirle al privado, pero le diré el motivo de mi duda y problema. Seguí los pasos pero mi problema está en la pva y PVP no me da la consistencia de dureza cómo se ve en el vídeo y cuando le hecho a la acetona, termina como gel transparente sin tener éxito a sacarlo para el siguiente proceso . Q estaría haciendo mal ?
Hola amigo, perdón por mi tiempo. Intenta usar solo PVA al principio, hasta que puedas hacer el hidrogel de manera eficiente, y solo luego agrega el PVP a la mezcla. Eso es porque si el PVP es demasiado, el hidrogel puede disolverse y no formar el hidrogel. La mezcla de acetona y glutaraldehído también necesita acidificarse. Siempre agregue unas gotas de ácido para bajar el pH. Si la concentración de glutaraldehído/acetona y el pH son correctos, funcionará. Pero prueba solo con PVA puro al principio, hasta que domines bien el material. Dependiendo de la concentración del líquido de reticulación, puede hacer la reacción en segundos inclusive. El tiempo de residencia en el líquido, su concentración y su pH regularán el nivel de reticulación del PVA. Hay otras formas de entrecruzar el PVA, como usar formaldehído en lugar de glutaraldehído, pero el formaldehído es más tóxico.
I'm not sure if an alkaline membrane can work well with vanadium. I know they are using quinone in an alkaline environment. Even so, a lot of tests need to be done and evaluate if there is good ionic conductivity and if there is no crossover of the reagents. There are other types of membranes that work well with flow cells, such as ceramics, which may have advantages in this type of configuration.
I believe there may be many other materials that can be put in besides PVP, but only testing the mix and getting the results to make sure it works. Perhaps CMC (Carboxymethyl cellulose) could be an option.
Hi, I did the experiment and filmed the result, but I didn't make many measurements. I know that the current is much lower than the current generated by some batteries, for example, because the catalysis reaction is slower because it depends a lot on surface area and other factors. I'll do another one in the future using another catalyst and then I'll do the measurements and put it on the video. I am preparing the next video that I will show you how to build MEA (electrode assembly membrane) using hydrogel membranes. There it will be interesting for others to reproduce the experiment.
I ordered a few things to reproduce your work. I also want to try a few different things. I wonder if it is possible to thin the PVP/PVA mixture so it could be sprayed? Take two pieces of carbon fiber mat and spray both with membrane. Next, press both sprayed sides together and heat until they fuse. Then perform cross linking and KOH bath. Carbon fiber mat is porous and could act as both gas diffusion layer and current collector (I think). I know its possible to activate carbon fiber and I wonder if that increase in surface area would allow the reaction to proceed faster without a catalyst.
@@nick99995 Hello, yes you are going in the right direction, but there are some details that can increase efficiency. The spray technique is best for applying a layer of carbon black + catalyst or just carbon black on carbon paper. This causes the active area for chemical reactions to increase considerably. To make the carbon black spray you can dilute the resin more (increase the amount of water to decrease the viscosity), mix the carbon black and ultrasonic the mixture. Then you can use a grain sieve to make sure it won't "clog" the spray. This black ink you can apply on carbon paper. It will create a much larger reaction surface area than just carbon paper. In fact, carbon paper is great for electron flow and as GDL. To make the membrane you can use the pure resin in a support material for example tissue paper. That's exactly what I'm going to show you now in my next video! Ps. I saw you signed up on facebook, thanks for the support!
@@danielrosselli Thank you for all your advice. I have been making membranes for a few weeks now, experimenting with different methods. I've cross linked and doped a few and tried a few methods of putting carbon powder on them. I've tried making two fuel cells but so far no luck with getting any power. For carbon application, I've tried making a slurry and painting the membranes, using conductive carbon ink (for electronics), applying carbon to still wet (drying) membrane and using more PVA to glue the halves together etc. I have not included a catalyst in my carbon just yet. I now think spraying an ink is the way to go. One thing I have been trying to research is how close does the catalyst need to be to the membrane for the catalytic site an active. Activated carbon powder is filled with Pt nanoparticles which means the powder has adsorbed it over its entire surface. The sides of the powder that are not in intimate contact with the membrane cannot be an active site. Is that correct? Likewise, the part of powder touching the membrane with no gas flow to it cannot be active either? Seems like a large waste of Pt. Also, do you know what is the purpose of acetone in the crosslinking step? I've read a few papers that only used GA to crosslink with an acid catalyst.
![[UA] NAVI проти G2 Esports | Blast Premier Fall Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QWlIm4FGESQ/mqdefault.jpg)
You are a very generous guy Daniel
Thank you!
Sir , please make a video of alkaline fuel cell using this alkaline membrane in cell.
Hello friend, yes, that's what I'm planning to post soon. I was checking my stock of catalysts today. Making a cell requires some other elements that I am already providing as well. Wait for news soon!
@@danielrosselli Hi Daniel
any updates on the project?
looking forward to see the cell pumping.
thanks
@@danielrosselli Hello were you able to make the cell?
That would be great, this is already a big step and over 70% of the work done, to make an ion-permeable membrane, congratulations on your success, I take my hat off to this guy :) Go ahead
@@jonasmodie3608 I see and note that it is a great passion and excitement to make a fuel cell at home. Well, yes, because it will really be the career of the future very soon, which is on our doorstep, because the hydrogen transition is on the doorstep and as soon as the standard of electric cars falls, hydrogen will come on the scene, and hydrogen fuel cells. And that's where our story comes in, this is really great and I've been trying to make a fuel cell for a long time in my workshop without special equipment and machines. When I succeed in that, the next thing that will follow is a bicycle powered by hydrogen, with a fuel cell, and you can watch my channel where I presented the production of hydrogen gas by electrolysis of water, and storage in high-pressure cylinders :)
I really like this video. But I have a request. Can you remake this video with an in depth explanation of why you’re using the chemicals that you’re using and how it brings you one step closer to creating an ion exchange membrane?
I can think about doing this in future videos. In fact, this membrane belongs to a larger class of materials than hydrogels modified and functionalized to have this characteristic of ionic conductivity. So it can be done using other compounds, with stabilities at different pHs. They are used in many other applications besides fuel cells as well. At the time I was looking for alternative solutions to nafion and realized that this class of materials was very promising for this purpose.
Very nice video Daniel.... We encountered problems with our aqueous PVP and aqueous PVA mixtures. For this reason, we had a question for you.
What are the mass ratios of PVP and PVA materials in aqueous PVP and aqueous PVA mixtures that make up the membrane?We will be glad if you answer.
The ration can be 1:1, but if you is having problems, start using just PVA. When you make the correct crosslink, add PVP in minor quantities and observe the results.
great video, i will try it. Is it exactly the same as Nafion?
Daniel I apologize, I just started to be interested in fuel cells, the Russian-language UA-cam could not offer me any information, but I am grateful to you for your content. I do not quite understand how this membrane works, like a Nafion film? Or is it, roughly speaking, a gel electrolyte? If it works like a gel electrolyte, how often does an alkaline fuel cell need to be serviced, and how long can it actually operate on a given membrane without maintenance?
Congratulations on the success of the anion membrane formation. It is my great passion to buy all the chemicals needed as soon as possible and to start making them. I am very grateful for the nice explanation of how to make it. I have a question, have you tried the made anion membrane in electrolysis 20 -50 mA per square centimeter current density using KOH electrolyte. How durable is this kind of membrane for alkaline electrolysis?
Hello, could i use this membrane as a sodium membrane for electrolysis ?
Thank you very much for the awesome content.
It would be very nice that if you make a chlor-alkali cell with it
plz make more videos this is great stuff
Hello friend, thanks for the support, I'm going to make another video with the cell, I'm preparing the materials and I still need to publish other pending videos
@@danielrosselli im looking forward 2 that
@Daniel Rosselli . obrigado pelo vídeo. pra que exatamente serve está membrana?
Wow you made my day :) this was the missing last piece of my "know how" puzzle, now i can start constructing my hydrogen systems. Thank You Very Much for fantastic video.
Ride on!!! Ill do castings, let me know if you need anything, as anodes or cathodes in specific alloys or shapes.
Hi Valands, sorry about my delay and thanks for your comments! I will post one video soon about how to construct the MEAs with more details. Thank you about you offer about anodes and cathodes, I will contact you if you need them ;)
@@danielrosselliplease guide how to test this membrane.
Great presentation!
Daniel, achei seu vídeo extremamente educativo, informativo e inspirador. Poderia me falar onde posso encontrar as referências bibliográficas? Sou estudante universitário e planejo reproduzir seu experimento e compará-la em ciclo convencional e reverso (funcionando com hidrogênio) com a eficiência da membrana Nafion. Além disso, gostaria de saber se tem referências sobre os catalizadores.
Oi Marcos td bem? Eu deixei a referência bibliográfica dessa membrana na descrição do vídeo. É bem interessante sua idéia, e se fizer o experimento e puder me dizer o resultado eu agradeço. Tem para vender os catalisadores, mas não achei no Brasil, ou você pode produzí-los, o que talvez seja interessante. Para hidrogênio, o catalisador mais clássico é o de platina sobre carbon. Existem alguns outros métodos como o de eletrodeposição que é bem eficiente, já que ele só deposita sobre os clusters ativos. A montagem da MEA é importante, pq no caso da Nafion vc pode utilizar o "hotpress", mas no caso dessa membrana, que é um hidrogel, vc vai ter que usar uma técnica um pouco diferente.
what chemical reactions are involved in the process?
can you make a video about how to make proton exchange membrane?
Olá, Daniel! Para utilizar essa membrana para eletrólise da água, é necessário a presenta de eletrólitos dissolvidos na água? Ou essa membrana já funciona como o próprio eletrólito sólido? Parabéns pelo vídeo!
Boa pergunta essa! Membranas trabalham de forma diferente dependendo da sua composição. No caso dessa aqui de hidrogel eu uso um sal (KOH) dissolvido. Isso pq a característica desse material é de facilitar o transporte de íos OH que já estão no eletrólito e tbém na membrana. Mesmo pq aqui eu preciso do meio "alcalino". No caso da Nafion por exemplo, em células eletrolisadoras, vc usa água destilada. As vezes vc escuta dizer que não é possível fazer eletrólise de água destilada, só que nesse tipo de célula, a membrana já atua com mobilidade de H+ na presença apenas de água. É claro que a platina vai ter o papel fundamental de "quebrar" a molécula de água, permitindo assim a eletrólise usando apenas água destilada.
Excelente video! te consulto por proveedores allá en Brasil, acá en Argentina no pude encontrar ni siquiera de Nafion, bueno de nuevo felicitaciones por el canal, muy interesante!.
Gracias por ver!
Muy buena la demostración. Ahora toca ver cómo consigo los reactivos. Excelente. Gracias.
Gracias por ver!
@@danielrosselli добрый день. Можете подсказать как Вы делаете топливные ячейки.
@@danielrosselli а Вы занимаетесь водородными топливными ячейками? У Вас есть месенджер?
@@olegdrobot8389 You know a lot of people have asked me that. I'm still going to put a lot of material on this subject. I haven't had much time lately. Here in my country I do some fuel cell assembly workshops, but I've never done one online, I can think about that in the future.
Hi Daniel...very informative video...how has this membrane performed so far? How would you compare it to the proprietary commercial membranes in terms of ionic conductivity and life?
I have membranes that have been stable in storage for over 9 years, but I don't know in operation what the durability would be. As for ionic conductivity they are very good, but still not as good as nafion. This is also due to the alkaline medium, which is a little different from acid. The main advantage is the cost per square meter, manufacturing with non-toxic ingredients and being able to use cheaper catalysts.
Doesn't the crosslinked polymer slowly degrade in highly acidic and basic aqueus conditions? I.e aren't we just reforming the gluteraldehyde as we submerge it in active water?
Daniel, que video maravilhoso! Você é sensacional. Fiquei bem curioso e queria explorar isso mais afundo, seria possível disponibilizar o artigo utilizado como base para essa síntese?
Olá, sim, eu vou ver se já deixei na descrição, mas se eu me recordo já mandei pra alguém aqui nos comentários, vou dar uma olhada nisso!
It looks like my Fumasep membrane i bought but mine in flat without dents.
That could probably be fixed with a slight modification to the procedure.
Nicely done.
Have you made other types of membranes too? I check your other videos.
@Mateo-wf1yz can you share procedure that slight modification removes dents
Fantastic. Could it be used as a psuedo solid state battery membrane ?
Very heplful!!! Thank you so much sir. Greetings from Turkey
thanks for watching!
I bet you could mix these with UV resin and 3D print custom membranes of any geometry
I found some interesting papers about this: "Direct-Ink-Write 3D Printing of Hydrogels into Biomimetic Soft Robots". This one use PVA with other chemicals and "Highly stretchable hydrogels for UV curing based high-resolution multimaterial 3D printing". Interesting stuff!
I half expected you to do a chemical "Cups and balls" magic routine when I saw the glass stir rod, the plastic cups and you tapping away on each of them! Seriously though, have you tried to put a fuel cell stack together with this material? Second question is "have you looked at halogen catalysts like Iodine" as an alternative to platinum? Great job with the membrane! Thanks Doug
Hi, thank you for observations, I will look about halogens catalysts like iodine. I have pure iodine and many chemicals with this element.
Sir thank you for making this type of vedios. Sir this is my humble request you to sir. Sir please make a vedio on how to make a proton exchange membrane for PEM fuel cell.
Hi, thank you for watching. Yes, when I start to make videos I can make a video about this. I'm hard working this year and my time is a bit complicated.
Thanks for posting this video! Do you have any recommendations for making a cation exchange membrane using PVA? I have been doing crosslinking of PVA with phosphoric acid, urea and cellulose but I cannot seem to get permselectivity values above 50% (with 0.1M NaCl | 0.5M NaCl). Any suggestions would be appreciated!
I have tested with some membranes for acidic media using PVA. But I need to make tests in real cells to watch the results.
Excelente trabalho amigo! Conheci agora o seu canal e já gostei bastante!
Obrigado! Entrei no seu canal faz um tempo e está muito show de bola!! Tem poucos canais como o seu no Brasil, o primeiro que vi foi o NurdRage muito tempo atrás. Parabéns grande trabalho! Preciso melhorar os vídeos, e estou com menos tempo que no ano passado, mas ainda tenho bastante conteúdo pra colocar.
@@danielrosselli Me sinto muito prestigiado pelo seu comentário! Tenha certeza que seu conteúdo é de grande utilidade e de qualidade de informação, isso que importa. Pode ter certeza que vou aguardar os próximos vídeos, esse tema me interessa bastante! Inclusive estava pesquisando aqui e vi um artigo que descrevia a metodologia que você reproduziu com maestria. Parabéns!
Well done sir. And can you make an acid membrane or PEM in the same way to transfer hydrogen ions? Do you have a video of how to make a PEM membrane?
Hello, yes I can make a video about this, I was working on this idea even these days!
@@danielrosselli you have made video on pem yet or not
Doesn't the KOH lead to deesterification making the polymer decompose back into the pva? And that makes it water soluble. That's what Wikipedia says and it makes sense to me.
Hi, the scientific paper describing the process is the "Alkaline solid polymer electrolyte membranes based on structurally modified PVA/PVP with improved alkali stability". Search on google and I will find more answer.
@@danielrosselli Ah thx. Unfortunately this paper doesn't seem to be publicly accesssible.
is it possible to make a membrane that is conductive to H+ ?
Super video!
What is the name ionic alkaline membrane? Did you tied used PET polymer as matrix for grafting?
Thank you for feedback! I never thought of a name. I tried other support materials like fabric, paper, fiberglass, but not pet. Paper is easy to make and works well
Where did you buy polyvinyl pyrrolidone and glutaraldehyde in Europe? Can you produce povidone-iodine?
Hola amigo Daniel, se puede usar el cloruro de benzalconio en vez del glutaraldeydel?
Este no lo conozco, pero puedes hacer una prueba para ver si funciona el crosslink.
Essa menbrana pode ser usada no hidrogenio
hello daniel, i know this is a little off topic, but is it possible to use this membrane for the electrolysis of sodium chloride solution? i'm really interested in making my own chemicals like naoh and hcl from household chemicals like table salt, and it would be really helpful if i could use such a membrane. alternatively i could use an agar salt bridge, but i wasn't able to find much information on how to make such a salt bridge. do you have any advise for me? i just don't know what would work best.
edit: i think that for one of my current ideas i need an anion exchange membrane which blocks sodium and copper cations, but lets chloride anions pass. such a membrane couldn't be replaced with a salt bridge.
for my other setups i *could* use an agar salt bridge, but as i said, i don't know whether this would be the best choice, especially since i dont know how chemically resistent agar and anion/cation exchange membranes are. sorry that i'm asking these millions of questions, i just don't know what to do...
Hi Stefanie, some people asked me about using this membrane in an chlor alkali environment. But others here have reported that it has completely degraded. So I believe that this membrane does not work for that. I personally haven't tested it. What I already did was use this membrane in an experiment with electrolytes with different pH and it degraded.
@@danielrosselli thanks so much! now i don't have to buy all these chemicals i would have needed to make such a membrane. sad that it doesn't work, but i can still use an agar salt bridge so i guess it'll work out.
@@stefaniesieveking7698 How well does the agar bridge work?
мембрану можно сделать из гипса@@stefaniesieveking7698
You can wood glue instead Pva & Pva
Maybe you can try using it, but I guess have other chemicals too and can difficult ion transport. PVA alone don't have a better ionic transport if compared with other comercial membranes.
Boa Tarde Amigão Daniel vamos fazer membranas nafion!!👏👏👏👏 eu comprei aquela geleia coloridas que as crianças brincam para fazer oque Você falou como alternativas a pem mas tenho uma duvida que calsa ecos dentro de minha cabeça os eletrodos catodo e anodo da fuel cell são de metais diferentes? Exemplo Igual uma pilha química que é zinco e grafite ou os eletrodos da fuel cell são de mesmo material metálico ?
Boa tarde!! Hehehe sim, não diria que é nafion, mas membranas de hidrogel vc vai fazer! Aquele liquido do slime é PVA, só precisaria adicionar o PVP pra ter mais condução iônica, mas vai funcionar pra vc fazer os testes que precisar. O metal é do mesmo material (aqui eu uso tela de aço, pode usar tela de níquel ou outras), ele não é o anodo e catodo como nas baterias, não vai ter reação de redox, ele serve apenas para fazer contato com a MEA (aquela membrana central com os carvões pretos impregnados nos 2 lados). A reação da célula de combustível ocorre naqueles carvões (carbon black) e ele está impregnado com catalisador que vai quebrar as moléculas na reação e liberar os elétrons. É aquela parte da célula de combustível que é responsável por todo o processo. Aí cada combustível vai um catalisador que é melhor para cada caso. O de uso geral é a platina, mais usado também para comparar a eficiência com outros catalisadores. A pilha quimica é diferente já faz o redox direto dos metais.
@@danielrosselli sim entendo mas o catalisador platina + carbono vai só do lado do hidrogênio certo?
E do lado da MEA que tem o carbono Preto que vai o oxigênio vai algum tipo de catalisador também?
Eu posso usar cavao de núcleos de pilhas para fazer estes catalisador layes que vai dos dois lados da MEA ?
Tenho aqui uma moeda de um peso que acredito ser de prata como fazer para obter o catalisador apartir dela eletrólise funcinaria '?
@@julhoponde1656 o carbon + platina pode ir nos 2 lados, pq a platina consegue catalisar as 2 reações, tanto do lado do hidrogênio quanto do oxygênio. Aliás, é o do lado do oxigênio que geralmente tem mais problemas. Agora para o uso em células alcalinas, existem outros catalisadores que são eficientes tbém, vc pode usar por exempĺo alguns óxidos, como o de manganês ou cobalto. A prata já usei mas oxidou rapidamente e não teve boa performance. Um catalisador para usar no lado do hidrogênio pode ser o níquel, ele funciona bem no meio alcalino. Lembre-se que a eficiência dos catalisadores também está relacionado ao tamanho das partículas, sendo os nanocatalisadores bem mais eficientes. Não testei usando carvão de pilha, ele tem dióxido de manganês eletrolítico, pode ser que funcione. Tem um artigo sobre esse manganês aqui se quiser dar uma olhada: pubs.rsc.org/en/content/getauthorversionpdf/C5RA05892A
@@danielrosselli obrigado vou dar uma olhada ' o niobio ou o tungstênio ou o titânio não são alternativas para usar como catalisador no lado ácido do oxigênio?
please make more content about anionic exchange membranes
Yes, I will do!
I THINK I understand correctly. So this brown membrane you created will pass OH- ions instead of H+ ions as with Nafion? Would the end result be the same? I want to make membranes to use in electrolyzers, not fuel cells. With Nafion, H+ ions migrate through the membrane and are met with electrons on the other side, producing H2 molecules, which exit and can be collected. With an alkaline membrane, what happens? OH- ions migrate through, leaving H+ ions behind and the hydrogen is produced at the opposite side?
Sir. Como se usa? 😢
Great video
Dear Daniel Rosselli, Have you tested the fuel cell using PVA/PVP MEMBRANE? What non PGM electrode catalysts may be used here? Do you have some videos and literature link regarding this? Eagerly waiting for your reply. Wishing the best.
Hi, yes my other videos that used alkaline electrolyte were using this membrane. I used it in the ethanol cell, in the zinc-air cell, etc. You can use nickel, cobalt, manganese, and other metals as electrocatalysts
is it same as AEM
is this membrane durable in highly alkaline KOH solution? I want to make a PEM electrolysis cell for hydrogen production, and use KOH as electrolyte , thanks for your excellent video, I hope it can solve my problem for water electrolysis,
Yes, very durable!
You have made pem membrane
Great video! It seems like gluteraldehyde it pretty hard to come by where I live -- is it possible to use other more readily available crosslinkers (such as borax) instead? Thanks!
In my country I get glutaraldehyde from hospital supply stores, or from stores that sell chemical products. Formaldehyde can crosslink, but it is more toxic. There are other ways to make PVA crosslink, borax can also work, it is used with PVA to make slime, but I don't know the result regarding ionic conditivity. There are gel-type membranes, so perhaps borax could serve as the basis for this type of membrane.
I was forgetting a more 'green' reagent, the citric acid! You can use it with PVA, heat it to about 140 degrees Celsius for 5 minutes. This will do the crosslink as well.
@@danielrosselli thats great, thanks so much for the idea!
Which types of ions it is able to exchange cation or Anion ?
Or any Particular selective one type ?
Is for anion transport
Thank you very much. you use pva and pvp and what is the result? I mean probably it's not pet? i ask because i think about to buy pipes to make membranes, therefore it would be usefull to know which material to use. Great Video. Thank you in advance.
Hi, this mixture is not the same as PET, this is another class of polymers. PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) is a polymer known and used in many mixtures including its ability to form hydrogels. PVP is another film maker. Its objective is to increase the ionic conductivity of PVA. The result is a hydrogel with more ionic conductivity.
Hello again...
One more question appeared....
Do you somehow know, whether this membrane is selective permeable so that oh- can pass but for example chlorideions (cl-) are rejected?
I think this work is helpful
Can we estimate the financial cost of this film (square meters ... taking into account the thickness)
Thank you
Hi, I bought the chemicals a while ago, I know they are very cheap. I never did an exact calculation on this, but I believe it would be very little per square meter, maybe a few dollars or not even that.
hola Daniel gracias x tu videos , tengo el problema q a mi no me sale la textura q se ve en el video, y después cuando lo sumerjo en acetona puro, se desintegra. pero todo lo hago tal como indicas, o hay algo q estoy haciendo mal.....
¿acidificaste la solución?
@@danielrosselli las 10 gotas de ácido clorhídrico
@@robindavinci9646 Creo que es suficiente, si tienes dudas haz una medida para ver si ha bajado el pH. Entonces, si no es el pH, probablemente en la composición del PVA, o hay mucho PVP en relación con el PVA. El entrecruzamiento se realiza en PVA, el PVP sirve más para aumentar la conducción iónica, pero disminuye la resistencia mecánica y la propiedad de formación de gel.
¿Has puesto el glutaraldehído? ¡Él es muy importante! Es quien entrecruza el PVA
@@danielrosselli creo q esos datos q me indicas lo tengo claro probare y te hare saber. gracias nuevamente amigo Daniel dios me lo bendiga siempre
Very good videro, rly... I have question. How many % got yours HCL? There's will be diffrent if I will use 2,5% glutaraldeyde, not 2%?
Yes you can use 2.5% without problems. HCL are just a few drops to acidify. You can use other acids too, the important thing is to leave the pH of the solution acidic.
@@danielrosselli I have next question, what kind of PVP did you use? K30, K60, K90?
@@konradpiotrowski5662 I used K60 but you can use K90 or K30 with no problem. Adjust the viscosity and molecular weight if you needed.
@@danielrosselli Thank you very much, you are great!
Hola Daniel, puedo utilizar esta emembrana en una celda de metanol directo? DMFC?
Sim, funciona, solo lembre de ajustar o ph da solução de metanol para alcalino
Can the membrane used in the chlor alkali cell?
Hey, I really appreciate these videos and I'm really looking forward to seeing this assembled in a DIY cell. Maybe a bit OT but is it feasable to DIY such a fuel cell with self-electrolyzed hydrogen gas and replace the battery in EV conversion? In other words, how many Watts can you get out of this, with non-noble electrodes and just carbon cloth? Since typical EV motors I came across by some quick research require around 12kW for small builds.
Hello, yes my next video will be an ethanol fuel cell. I already did the experiment now I need to make the video. I plan on making a reversible hydrogen cell, but I'm out of platinum catalyst. For ethanol, I used platinum-ruthenium, but for hydrogen it is better to use only platinum. Hydrogen cells are now the most studied and developed, with catalysts even more efficient and cheaper than platinum. In alkaline cells you can test with more common metals, such as nickel, iron, cobalt, copper, etc ... I can't say how many cells would be needed for 12kW because it depends a lot on the efficiency that each cell can obtain. I never did the test using only carbon felt without catalyst. You have to test and see if it has any efficiency, but I think it will not yield much. If I do I post a video about it too.
@@danielrosselli How much Chloroplatinic Acid in weight do you need?
Is it possible to use this membrane with for example nickel plate anode cathode and GDL? Also can electrodes be placed directly on membrane? How is in operation regarding hydrating this membrane?
Yes, is possible! There is many ways to assembly the cell, you need to pay attention about the electrolyte corrosion, for example, if you will use nickel, the fuel need to be compatible. In many commercial cells, nickel is used as current collector (or you can use entire nickel plate). And yes, you can place electrodes directly onto membrane contact.
How much water is added initially
hello, sir, we have taken the ingredients as a powder, we will liquefy them by adding what
Just add water (deionized is better). You will find the best viscosity trying different concentrations.
🤔Ok but can someone please explain whats better rubber or that?
If I dope this membrane with PT-Ru Catalyst, will it act as a single stack PEMFC? Have you tried it before, and how is its performance?
Yes, I made another video using platinum-ruthenium for alcohol catalysis, check it out. But I used the alkaline medium, so it's more like an AEFC
Buenas Daniel! Excelente vídeo, no caso de uma aplicação que necessitasse de 25kW de potência gerando 350V, teria uma idéia de custos de fabricação da(s) célula(s)? (Pode ser o custo estimado por cm² e a área necessária para produzir essa potência nessa tensão) Muito obrigado!
Olá, não vi qual o combustível que vai usar nessa célula. Vou pensar que está usando uma clássica PEMFC. Nesse caso para essa voltagem seria preciso quase 584 células se usar o modelo em série de cada célula (considerei 0.6v por célula, mas isso pode variar tbém). Para 25kW seria preciso 72 amps x 350v. Para MEAs clássicas usando Nafion e platina o valor desse pack pode ficar muito caro.
@@danielrosselli Qual seria a melhor solução para etanol?
Amazing. Grato!
Hello Daniel, If I let a membrane dry after making a membrane, can I use it dry in a hydrogen cell after a few weeks? or do I have to do a special procedure? Many greetings
Hi, yes you can let it dry, but it will wrinkle a little due to water loss. When using, you can rehydrate it using KOH solution (alkaline pH) or a saline solution (neutral pH). When it is dry it is mechanically stronger and does not break easily.
well done
Can other ketones and aldehydes be used for crosslink solution? With what effects?
Yes, formaldehyde will work too, but it is more toxic
Hi Daniel. Cool Video!
Do know a recipe for an Anion selective membrane that is stable in an acidic solution. I am looking for a cheap replacement for an AMI-7001 membrane. I thought of purolite a520e powder (chemicaly identical to AMI-7001) in a matrix of your crosslinked PVA/PVP polymer. Do you think that could work or could you try to create such a membrane?
Hi Daniel, yes, I already made a cationic membranes too, but I used other chemicals. The membrane of this video is not stable in acidic media. AMI-7001 is anionic, you could use this to substitute it, but the mechanical force can be a problem. In this case, you will need to use a matrix material like the AMI-7001. You could use for example woven, glass fiber, paper or others. So, you will impregnated the material with this resin (in this video) and make a crosslink. In my experiments I use paper for example, to increase the mechanical resistance. The membrane will be a little more resistive, but the practical application is more simple.
Hi Is there any chance instead of glutaraldeyde to use something else?
Thank you
There are other ways to polymerize PVA, you can find it on google, because I haven't tested it. Formaldehyde also works, but it is more toxic than glutaraldehyde.
So you make the membrane is anion exchange but what about make it proton exchange?
If i replace KOH in last step with acid like HCl or H2so4 does this make it a proton exchange membrane?
I already did this experiment, it ended up degrading. I have a few other variations using PVA that support the acidic medium.
and which if any research paper/procedure did you follow, or did you write your own paper? how can someone recreate this in a lab?
You don't need a laboratory to make this membrane, just some equipment. This is because these materials are not toxic, in fact they are even biocompatible depending on the crosslink. In the video I made a point of using only domestic equipment so that people see the possibility of doing it without too many problems. It is clear that if you have laboratory equipment it is easier, precision balance, heating table with stirrer. The result is much more accurate. But nothing prevents you from making a mixture like that at home. I even used an induction cooker that I have here. It takes a little work for you to mix the PVA in the water. The advantage is that PVA and PVP are cheap and easy to find. Hydrochloric acid which can sometimes be a problem, but can use other acids as well because its function is to lower the pH. I didn't make a paper about it, I used this: doi.org/10.1016/j.polymer.2010.08.018
Is it also A Proton Exchange Membrane ?
This is for anionic transport (OH). Some membranes will degrade if other pH are used and maybe has poor selectivity.
@@danielrosselli how to avoid degrade the membrane?
I Use 1:0.5 ratio of PVA and PVP-K 90 but it started degrading even in Cross link as well as KOH activation process. Even I changed the ratio of Glutaraldehyde as 5%, 2% and even 0.5% in crosslink preparation. follow up, I chanced the ratio of KOH as 1M and 0.1M but still it degrades. I haven't changed the ration of PVA/PVP
Congrats Daniel! Can this approach be used for a nitrogen ion membrane?
I don't know if there is a specific nitrogen exchange membrane. There are some ions that can be transported like sodium in the nasicon membranes. Perhaps this type of membrane can be modified for other ions. Hydrogel-type membranes, depending on their composition, can cause other ions to react inside the membrane (also depending on the type of electrolyte used) but their most standard application are cations and anions of type H and OH. I don't know what its application is, but anyway many tests would have to be done to confirm the possibility of selective nitrogen transport.
@@danielrosselli Thanks you! Keep it up with your great work
Can I use this in hydrogen fuel cell aka proton exchange cell? (which converts hydrogen and oxygen to water and produces electrical energy)
Yes you can, the difference is the internal chemistry, in this case this membrane is to alkaline fuel cell. So you combine hydrogen and oxygen to generate electrical energy, and the ionic transport is going to be OH- (anion exchange). In practice the result is the same, but the materials and internal chemistry are a little different. I'm going to show this in a future video and hope it gets clearer.
Please Sir can you make a membrane of 20 nm thickness and not hard please I want it in my work how can i do it i dont need alkaline to it
Price of pva and pvp
Will this work in place of nafion 117 for a vanadium redox battery cell
O don't tested with vanadium, maybe using a acid media PVA membrane can work
Daniel please use glows..
Hehehe, ok I will!
how much h2o was added to the PVA and pvp
I have all ingredients to make this but one thing I can't find here, it's glutaraldehyde.
I have it in solution of only 0.3%.
Please, do you know any method to concentrate this from water solution to higher concentration.
Does dehydration with for example CuSO4 works?
Thanks!
Hi, I dont't know if CuSO4 can work, maybe you need to make a test. If you evaporate the water excess can help to improve the concentration. Or use the 0.3% and extend the time of crosslink. Maybe can work too. You can find glutaraldeyde 2% in medical products, they use it for desinfection.
Can we use only PVA?
Yes you can, but the ionic conductivity will be lower
how many degrees can be used between the heat-resistant membrane and the steel chrome plate decently regards the health of your hands made ın turkıye
I used 60 celsius degress for KOH bath
Here you use which type of pva 99%hydrolyzed whose price is rs 5000 per 25 gram
Bom dia daniel, essa membrana ela pode subistituir o membrana nafion para a fabricaçao de células de combustiveis, ou ela tem um rendimento menor?
Olá, sim ela pode substituir a nafion e tem o rendimento um pouco menor, porém aqui estamos falando de meio alcalino e isso muda a condutividade um pouco. Aqui vc tem a vantagem do preço e dos catalisadores mais baratos, dá pra compensar com uma área maior e assim mesmo manter o preço bem abaixo.
@@danielrosselli isso é muito legal, eu estava pesquisando a nafion na china e um pedaço de 10/10 cm custava mais de 300 reais, ja com esse metodo consegue-se fazer muito maior, vc ja pensou em fabricar celulas de combustíveis? Essa tecnologia me parece bastante promissora
@@csm-eletronica8181 Pois é, o preço é realmente muito alto. Membranas do tipo hidrogel são absurdamente mais baratas. Muda um pouco também a forma de montagem e fabricação das MEAs, isso pq a natureza dos materiais são um pouco diferentes, e é isso que quero mostrar em outros vídeos. Eu nunca pensei em fabricar, eu gosto da parte experimental dela, mas é possível. Antes da pandemia eu fiz um workshop, tipo uma oficina que eu ensinei uma galera a montar as células. Esse ano tive muitos compromissos no trabalho e não estou conseguindo gravar novos vídeos, espero continuar em breve, eu gosto bastante dessa área!
@@danielrosselli espero que continue, ganhou mais um inscrito e vai ganhar bem mais se continuar.
@@danielrosselli eu sou mais conhecedor no mundo da eletrônica queria ter a oportunidade de lhe perguntar se com esse tipo de membrana usando o mesmo metodo poderia ser feito membranas para equipamentos para a mediçao de oxigenio dissolvido na água, eu pesquisei um pouco e vi que as membranas usadas neles é uma membrana permeável a oxigênio, será que daria pra fazer utilizando esse mesmo método?
Its caled ion exchange polymer not alkaline memvbrane ,because its nutraly charged ,because is nonpolar
How much water
there are multiple metal hydroxides want to understand why you chose potassium thx
You can use sodium hydroxide too. Potassium hydroxide in some papers show best results.
what molecular weights starter materials are you using? Thanks
You can test with different molecular weights. PVP you can use K30 or K90 and find the correct ratio. It will increase the hydrophilicity and ionic transport but the membrane will be more fragile. Try 50/50 in the beginning and make some tests.
hi , Can this alkaline membrane use as Proton Exchange Membrane ?
Hi, this one is to be used in alkaline environment. I will try to show a proton conductive membrane in others videos. (one of them is use phosphoric acid).
Hello Sir,
Can this membrane remove heavy oil from wastewater? How do you approach that scenario? Thank you !!
I don't know much about this area, but I believe it would break easily if any pressure is applied. There are some composite materials that can use the polymer within its matrix. Or use a ceramic matrix for example and fill your pores with hydrogel polymers. But I don't know if it works. Here is a article that reviews this area: "A Review on Current Development of Membranes for Oil Removal from Wastewaters"
@@danielrosselli Thank you so much
Can this membrane handle effect of CO2 gas easily?
I don't have instruments here to measure CO2 absorption, but I believe that if it exists it will be more related to the amount of water or electrolyte that the membrane retains, as is the case with Nafion. It is usually the solubility of co2 in the electrolyte that causes it to pass through the membrane. Studies show that PVA-based membranes have less permeability to methanol or ethanol for example. This is very good, and maybe it can retain co2 better too, but I can't say that.
Hola Daniel, i need to make a proton exchange membrane, which materials i need for this? Can i do the same process in your video?
There are some hydrogels that are more permissive to protons and you can create a membrane like that, I might make a video about that in the future. However, its ionic conductivity is not as efficient as nafion. The advantage is that they are much cheaper.
@@danielrosselli also interested in proton exchange
I would like to ask if this can replace nafion in a platinum based catalyst, or will it only work in alkaline fuel cell in the cell? And if this is the membrane is it surface rough enough for the platinum based catalyst ink to stick from something like an ultrasonic sprayer for instance?
Yes you can replace the nafion and use the platinum catalyst too. The difference is the use of an alkaline medium only. The techniques for impregnating the catalyst in the membrane are different because nafion is a thermoplastic and PVA no longer works that way. That is the subject of my next video that I am preparing. I will show you how to impregnate the membrane with a catalyst to form the MEA. This is because we cannot use the "hot-press" as done at nafion. And just deposit the catalyst on the surface of the membrane it will drop off. It must be fused to the surface of the membrane.
@@danielrosselli coollll. Subscribed and waiting. I am researching fuel cells but much of the research is arbitrary as cover nickel sheets in platinum and pasting nafion in between, I also found a paper where they use a nafion sheet covered with graphite sheet coated in ultrathin platinum. I am surprised how little published research there is, as people are developing methods and keeping it to themselves or keeping research private which I think is bad as I as a researcher have to come to the same conclusion again.
@@aayushgargofficial Yes I agree. I made this membrane a few years ago and I was surprised that after all this time there is still very little material about it. So during the pandemic I decided to recreate some experiments at home and started to see an interest in this subject. There is a lot of research on fuel cells but not everything is disclosed. And most are with nafion. Using hydrogels are few and they do not describe the whole process. But I think it is now possible to open some doors and if others also move forward we can raise some alternatives to the development of this area. And also bringing it closer to people, with more accessible and more "reproducible" material. I think it's really fun when I turn on the cell and watch it work!
How can I make a H and O separator,then recombine them in a blowtorch,at ratio's better for welding..can it be done.
Other wise I will have to separate the terminals.
Hi David, yes you can use this membrane to create a electrolyser, in this case, a alkaline electrolyser. It will separate the gases, one side h2 other site o2. You can recombine in the blowtorch because they will be in correct ratio. I will try to make a electrolyser and post a video. I don't have platinum anymore, but maybe I can try other catalysts and see the results. Even if I use only carbon I know it works, it just won't be as efficient as using platinum or other catalysts, but it would be enough to build the electrolyser. I found a paper these days using cobalt with other non-noble metals using in alkaline cell.
Hola amigo Daniel. Me gustaría escribirle al privado, pero le diré el motivo de mi duda y problema. Seguí los pasos pero mi problema está en la pva y PVP no me da la consistencia de dureza cómo se ve en el vídeo y cuando le hecho a la acetona, termina como gel transparente sin tener éxito a sacarlo para el siguiente proceso . Q estaría haciendo mal ?
Hola amigo, perdón por mi tiempo. Intenta usar solo PVA al principio, hasta que puedas hacer el hidrogel de manera eficiente, y solo luego agrega el PVP a la mezcla. Eso es porque si el PVP es demasiado, el hidrogel puede disolverse y no formar el hidrogel. La mezcla de acetona y glutaraldehído también necesita acidificarse. Siempre agregue unas gotas de ácido para bajar el pH. Si la concentración de glutaraldehído/acetona y el pH son correctos, funcionará. Pero prueba solo con PVA puro al principio, hasta que domines bien el material. Dependiendo de la concentración del líquido de reticulación, puede hacer la reacción en segundos inclusive. El tiempo de residencia en el líquido, su concentración y su pH regularán el nivel de reticulación del PVA. Hay otras formas de entrecruzar el PVA, como usar formaldehído en lugar de glutaraldehído, pero el formaldehído es más tóxico.
What is the possibility to use this membrane in VRB flow cell ?
I'm not sure if an alkaline membrane can work well with vanadium. I know they are using quinone in an alkaline environment. Even so, a lot of tests need to be done and evaluate if there is good ionic conductivity and if there is no crossover of the reagents. There are other types of membranes that work well with flow cells, such as ceramics, which may have advantages in this type of configuration.
Sir, has it been tested?
Yes, I used it in my other videos to demonstrate
good
Sir, is there anything that can substitute PVP?
I believe there may be many other materials that can be put in besides PVP, but only testing the mix and getting the results to make sure it works. Perhaps CMC (Carboxymethyl cellulose) could be an option.
Where did you buy ingredients for this membrane
Hi, You can found in marketplaces like eBay, aliexpress, amazon, mercadolibre, etc.. are cheap and non toxic.
Hi Daniel, did you measure the power/cm2 of the final cell?
Hi, I did the experiment and filmed the result, but I didn't make many measurements. I know that the current is much lower than the current generated by some batteries, for example, because the catalysis reaction is slower because it depends a lot on surface area and other factors. I'll do another one in the future using another catalyst and then I'll do the measurements and put it on the video. I am preparing the next video that I will show you how to build MEA (electrode assembly membrane) using hydrogel membranes. There it will be interesting for others to reproduce the experiment.
I ordered a few things to reproduce your work. I also want to try a few different things. I wonder if it is possible to thin the PVP/PVA mixture so it could be sprayed? Take two pieces of carbon fiber mat and spray both with membrane. Next, press both sprayed sides together and heat until they fuse. Then perform cross linking and KOH bath. Carbon fiber mat is porous and could act as both gas diffusion layer and current collector (I think). I know its possible to activate carbon fiber and I wonder if that increase in surface area would allow the reaction to proceed faster without a catalyst.
@@nick99995 Hello, yes you are going in the right direction, but there are some details that can increase efficiency. The spray technique is best for applying a layer of carbon black + catalyst or just carbon black on carbon paper. This causes the active area for chemical reactions to increase considerably. To make the carbon black spray you can dilute the resin more (increase the amount of water to decrease the viscosity), mix the carbon black and ultrasonic the mixture. Then you can use a grain sieve to make sure it won't "clog" the spray. This black ink you can apply on carbon paper. It will create a much larger reaction surface area than just carbon paper. In fact, carbon paper is great for electron flow and as GDL. To make the membrane you can use the pure resin in a support material for example tissue paper. That's exactly what I'm going to show you now in my next video! Ps. I saw you signed up on facebook, thanks for the support!
@@danielrosselli Thank you for all your advice. I have been making membranes for a few weeks now, experimenting with different methods. I've cross linked and doped a few and tried a few methods of putting carbon powder on them. I've tried making two fuel cells but so far no luck with getting any power. For carbon application, I've tried making a slurry and painting the membranes, using conductive carbon ink (for electronics), applying carbon to still wet (drying) membrane and using more PVA to glue the halves together etc. I have not included a catalyst in my carbon just yet. I now think spraying an ink is the way to go. One thing I have been trying to research is how close does the catalyst need to be to the membrane for the catalytic site an active. Activated carbon powder is filled with Pt nanoparticles which means the powder has adsorbed it over its entire surface. The sides of the powder that are not in intimate contact with the membrane cannot be an active site. Is that correct? Likewise, the part of powder touching the membrane with no gas flow to it cannot be active either? Seems like a large waste of Pt. Also, do you know what is the purpose of acetone in the crosslinking step? I've read a few papers that only used GA to crosslink with an acid catalyst.