Research reveals that in 1912 Wiley & Russell Mfg. Co. was acquired by Greenfield Tap & Die Corp. The Wiley & Russell name, was discontinued after 1916. So that makes this set damn old.
i love the lines of the greenfield t&D tap handles dam shame thers not any ! i have several old sets just for looking at ;) i belive you have a great find there . thanks for sharing .
good video i grew up in the United States and my Dad loved his Antique MGs that he and i were always working on in some fashion or another my Father was too cheap to go buy a complete set of Whitworth wrenches or sockets instead he spent hours scanning tool vendors at Flea Markets and Swap meets buying random Whitworth wrenches as most A,erica s had no idea what they really were many of the tools we did use were from Motorbike companies and we did use a mix of our Metric and Imperial tool sets as we did whatever we had to do
I bought a Morse Taper 3 with a 14mm head on it. The taper probably came from China. When I got to buying a nut for the thread I discovered it was TPI 26. Although very knew to lathes and such, these learning are all interesting historically probably a reason for all of this. Enjoyed your video. Thank from across the pond.
Interesting -- I have an old (large) wooden box with some actual Whit taps and dies - mainly large and old. Has occasionally got me out of trouble. Ahh - 26 TPI - that is a pitch that was very popular in the past.
Funny enough ran into some 26TPI threads earlier this year, in a sieve. Find out it is a 4/40 UNC thread, and even funnier I actually have both the capscrews for it ( for another machine) , the die nut and tap, and even a recoil set for it. Sadly though I needed stainless steel capscrews, but only have high carbon steel ones, and they are not available locally at any of the 3 nut and bolt sellers around, only special order, and they want a minimum order of 500 to order them. Yes I also buy old sets of thread nuts and taps, because they are useful. That your set does not have a tap holder is not strange, as in many cases the apprentice schools were making the tap holders as part of training, and thus there would always be at least 3 of them per journeyman, the one made as apprentice, the one made to qualify and at least one larger one made by them to handle larger taps. Tap holders I have a few, from small to large, though a lot of times the taps are done with the use of a spanner or using an adjustable wrench, simply because of limited space in there to fit the tap holders. I also do posses a few broken tap extractors, which have the signs of use on them as well. Will also point out that old wiper blades also have a near perfect match in the stainless steel strip in the blade to make a DIY extractor, using only the rest of the tap and an appropriate nut to act as the mandrel. 5 minutes on the grinder to profile the stainless strip in some smaller threads and it works well.
G'day Rob what a fantastic find, just with the railway history they have would be worth a lot of money to a real steam buff......like me! Wish that I could find something like that over here regards John. PS lucky bugger! I'm jealous!
Hi John, They made stuff to look good back then. Just like my tired old Schaublin lathe. They're all feel good tools. I wonder how many steam engines it was used on ? If only tools could talk, they would tell a few fascinating tales. My father who was convoy mechanic in the AIF during WW2 told me how he once lifted a steam engine back onto the Alice Springs to Gorrie railway line (Northern Territory) with a mighty Kenworth M1 A1 heavy wrecker recovery vehicle he was assigned to. No mean feat. People forget that steam was still THE railway driving force during WW2 when technology really took off. Cheers Rob
I have bought stuff not know exactly what it was at a flea market or something. You can tell its nice and for ten bucks who cares, right? The deals that "bother" me though are the craigslist finds where I get something from some single mom who's cleaning up her fathers garage after he dies and I get home and find out I just paid a couple hundred for several thousands of dollars worth of vintage, should be in a museum, tooling.... So one time i decided I needed to make it right, i felt super guilty..... I took a lady a thousand bucks. Told her that I don't resell or even buy tools for the purpose of collecting, that I buy tools I USE and they would have a good home and that I felt like she deserved more than the 200 bucks I gave her. BTW, I gave her EXACTLY what she was asking, which is kind of what bit me in the ass when she decided to TRY AND SUE ME for taking advantage of her. If I had tried to haggle her down further I was told she would have less of a case. So always try to screw people and never try to make things right i suppose should be the take away.... Remember, no good deeds go unpunished...
6 років тому+1
The large die holder is worth 20 bucks on its own. Back ward step when we went metric.
Whit was probably the guys name.... I bought some beautiful tooling once at a gar(b)age sale and for years tried to identify it and find more of it. Turns out the kid I got it from had a great grand father who was a master tool and gauge maker and all stuff I have is from his 50+ years of making his own tools. ALL of which was stamped with his initials..... The search...... continues.....
Yes, these are high pressure threads so they are good for hydraulics and gas lines. I used a small size the other day on a Stirling engine build and they worked well (only because the fine pitch made for an airtight thread). Must have cost a fortune when new. Cheers Rob
$20 cant go wrong, if your after some bsw dies, try a seller by the name of C-tool his located in wentworth nsw ive actually bought some brand new old stock BSW p&n dies still in the packet, cheap aswell
might have a 1/2 ww die. will have a look around. work in the railways - english electric locos r full of it and bsf. they're all scrapped now. brass thread is, or was used a lot in electrical fittings. lampholders etc. will let ya know if I find one. or two............
Something tells me that an adapter or two is missing for the taps. No American tool company at that time would produce a premium product for a very specific market and sell it half functional. I’m intrigued and will do a bit of research myself. Update Yes, W&R sold similar sets wit die wrench tap adapters. Figuring out what die doesn’t belong here is the hard part.
Hi Rob, I was just browsing on eBay for a die and noticed Toolingstation in Western Sydney has a 1/2 BSW die from Sutton for around $30, and a P+N one for $15. They're both a 2in OD. Hard to tell the condition, but I've not been disappointed in other tools I've bought from him before. Thought you might be interested :)
Rob...got a question for you mate. If, say your want to use a 5mm metric die (M5 x 0.8) on a some turned down brass. What diameter would you turn the brass down to? I've got a great chart for taps from H&F on the shed wall that I constantly refer to for tapping.
I always use the nominal size of the die. In this case 5 mm. I only ever use charts for taps. Brass can distort when threading and one trick I use is to flip the die over and use the reverse side without any lead in taper (once you get it started). This will usually give a cleaner more regular thread. Brass can be tricky stuff to work. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Thanks Rob, I always find that if I use the nominal size that the thread is really tight. That's why I was wondering if you were supposed to be a little under. I've Googled heaps, but have come up with no charts, only the handy charts for tapping. Thanks mate and hope you're staying safe from Covid and also staying warm. Its bitter here today on the South Coast of NSW.
If it's a bit tight then reduce the diameter very slightly. It won't matter with brass as it's generally used for low torque applications. If the thread profile looks complete and it measures up the same as a factory bolt (do a comparo) then it should be OK. The die being used could also be a bit dodgy. Those cheap Chinese ones are pretty basic. Quite a few things can do it, but deformation is top of the list. Sunny but cold here but I did get to Dan Murphys to stock up on beer specials :)
sir can you help me i'm looking P&N metric taps and die i have a set but i "m trying to look for bigger die and taps more like from 11mm to 20 mm don't know if they were ever made just like to try to get to full set i will send a picture later on of what i got regards Robert in NSW
Hi Robert, larger sizes are available, but they will be expensive. I know for a fact that 20 mm dies are sold, so I am sure you can get smaller sizes if you hunt around. Your best bet is to inquire at a major tool supplier/seller. Cheers Rob
I think you have mis-interpreted the labelling on the box. At the time the set was made (about 1910 or 1912) both 60 degree and 55 degree thread pitches were in common use and a purchaser would have had no problem understanding what he or she was buying. It was Whitworth thread form with the pitches stated on each item. I would say the set is well worth what you paid for it. Nowadays you almost never see sets with alignment collars. Re the "missing" tap holder, could the taps be assembled into the collar on the smaller handle? Kind regards.
There is nothing that would have stopped me from picking that up for $20. Even if ultimately it's not useful to you, somebody will pay you handsomely to get it. Then you will have most of what you need of not more in order to buy all the Whitworth dies you'd like. All courtesy of GumTree and a little effort.
a "deal sweetener" for trade/swap/barter palavers at a steam show, if nothing else. with all the ancient machinery and hobbyist restoration down there, that set will probably be " golden unobtainium" when you find the right lunatic, err, hobbyist
I’m sure you could find some steam engine restore group that would wet their pants when they see that set😀 You could knock up that missing spacer. I do wonder what those odd looking gears are for? Very interesting find
Great video, thank you for posting it. I live about 10 miles from the original factory. There’s not much left of the buildings, one is still standing and has since been refurbished into elderly housing. Here is a link to a museum in the area. They have a good bit of info about the manufacturing of that time. industrialhistory.org/about/
there you go rob----search ebay ------Brass Split Button Die 26TPI From 1/4 - 1" all 55deg -----------brand new $28 delivered,to complete your set.geoff
Research reveals that in 1912 Wiley & Russell Mfg. Co. was acquired by Greenfield Tap & Die Corp. The Wiley & Russell name, was discontinued after 1916. So that makes this set damn old.
Despite the oversight, you’ve got yourself a treasure, Rob.
Very interesting, and a great buy even if only for fondling now and then. 😳
Thanks Rob very interesting
i love the lines of the greenfield t&D tap handles dam shame thers not any ! i have several old sets just for looking at ;) i belive you have a great find there . thanks for sharing .
good video i grew up in the United States and my Dad loved his Antique MGs that he and i were always working on in some fashion or another my Father was too cheap to go buy a complete set of Whitworth wrenches or sockets instead he spent hours scanning tool vendors at Flea Markets and Swap meets buying random Whitworth wrenches as most A,erica s had no idea what they really were many of the tools we did use were from Motorbike companies and we did use a mix of our Metric and Imperial tool sets as we did whatever we had to do
I bought a Morse Taper 3 with a 14mm head on it. The taper probably came from China. When I got to buying a nut for the thread I discovered it was TPI 26. Although very knew to lathes and such, these learning are all interesting historically probably a reason for all of this. Enjoyed your video. Thank from across the pond.
Interesting -- I have an old (large) wooden box with some actual Whit taps and dies - mainly large and old. Has occasionally got me out of trouble.
Ahh - 26 TPI - that is a pitch that was very popular in the past.
Great find Rob, some guys have all the luck.
You have to keep looking.
Thank you very much I’ll try is just for some project Cheers Robert
Funny enough ran into some 26TPI threads earlier this year, in a sieve. Find out it is a 4/40 UNC thread, and even funnier I actually have both the capscrews for it ( for another machine) , the die nut and tap, and even a recoil set for it. Sadly though I needed stainless steel capscrews, but only have high carbon steel ones, and they are not available locally at any of the 3 nut and bolt sellers around, only special order, and they want a minimum order of 500 to order them.
Yes I also buy old sets of thread nuts and taps, because they are useful. That your set does not have a tap holder is not strange, as in many cases the apprentice schools were making the tap holders as part of training, and thus there would always be at least 3 of them per journeyman, the one made as apprentice, the one made to qualify and at least one larger one made by them to handle larger taps. Tap holders I have a few, from small to large, though a lot of times the taps are done with the use of a spanner or using an adjustable wrench, simply because of limited space in there to fit the tap holders.
I also do posses a few broken tap extractors, which have the signs of use on them as well. Will also point out that old wiper blades also have a near perfect match in the stainless steel strip in the blade to make a DIY extractor, using only the rest of the tap and an appropriate nut to act as the mandrel. 5 minutes on the grinder to profile the stainless strip in some smaller threads and it works well.
You bought BSB British Standard Brass. John. Had to say that before you did, now I will go back to Video. GOOD SCORE!
you scored Rob , That it worth WAYYY more than you paid man !!
Damn ! I’ve weve got an 1890s set at the museum that’s still in use
G'day Rob what a fantastic find, just with the railway history they have would be worth a lot of money to a real steam buff......like me! Wish that I could find something like that over here regards John. PS lucky bugger! I'm jealous!
Hi John,
They made stuff to look good back then. Just like my tired old Schaublin lathe. They're all feel good tools.
I wonder how many steam engines it was used on ? If only tools could talk, they would tell a few fascinating tales.
My father who was convoy mechanic in the AIF during WW2 told me how he once lifted a steam engine back onto the Alice Springs to Gorrie railway line (Northern Territory) with a mighty Kenworth M1 A1 heavy wrecker recovery vehicle he was assigned to. No mean feat. People forget that steam was still THE railway driving force during WW2 when technology really took off.
Cheers Rob
good tool, i also want a kit
Rob, if your going to stuff up a buy, that's the best way to stuff up. Good score!
Cam
Yes. Only $20. When you think about what it must have originally cost. Wow.
I have bought stuff not know exactly what it was at a flea market or something. You can tell its nice and for ten bucks who cares, right?
The deals that "bother" me though are the craigslist finds where I get something from some single mom who's cleaning up her fathers garage after he dies and I get home and find out I just paid a couple hundred for several thousands of dollars worth of vintage, should be in a museum, tooling....
So one time i decided I needed to make it right, i felt super guilty.....
I took a lady a thousand bucks. Told her that I don't resell or even buy tools for the purpose of collecting, that I buy tools I USE and they would have a good home and that I felt like she deserved more than the 200 bucks I gave her. BTW, I gave her EXACTLY what she was asking, which is kind of what bit me in the ass when she decided to TRY AND SUE ME for taking advantage of her.
If I had tried to haggle her down further I was told she would have less of a case.
So always try to screw people and never try to make things right i suppose should be the take away....
Remember, no good deeds go unpunished...
The large die holder is worth 20 bucks on its own. Back ward step when we went metric.
Can't go wrong at $20. Good find.
Whit was probably the guys name.... I bought some beautiful tooling once at a gar(b)age sale and for years tried to identify it and find more of it. Turns out the kid I got it from had a great grand father who was a master tool and gauge maker and all stuff I have is from his 50+ years of making his own tools.
ALL of which was stamped with his initials.....
The search...... continues.....
British Cycle Thread once used in the bicycle and very early motorcycle industries
Roy Lang. spot on . Only just found this video and your comment.Rather suprized that many others have not commented on it .
,,,the Whitworth has a radius at the base or peak, instead of a point or slight edge break .
You will use them. These obsolete threads are always handy to have.
Yes, these are high pressure threads so they are good for hydraulics and gas lines. I used a small size the other day on a Stirling engine build and they worked well (only because the fine pitch made for an airtight thread). Must have cost a fortune when new. Cheers Rob
$20 cant go wrong, if your after some bsw dies, try a seller by the name of C-tool his located in wentworth nsw ive actually bought some brand new old stock BSW p&n dies still in the packet, cheap aswell
Lost count of the stuff I've bought from C-tool over the years.. Good old stuff still in the wax paper too a lot of the time.
might have a 1/2 ww die. will have a look around. work in the railways - english electric locos r full of it and bsf. they're all scrapped now. brass thread is, or was used a lot in electrical fittings. lampholders etc. will let ya know if I find one. or two............
Hi Don, I've now got one. Cheers Rob
no wurries mate
Something tells me that an adapter or two is missing for the taps. No American tool company at that time would produce a premium product for a very specific market and sell it half functional.
I’m intrigued and will do a bit of research myself.
Update
Yes, W&R sold similar sets wit die wrench tap adapters. Figuring out what die doesn’t belong here is the hard part.
Hi Rob,
I was just browsing on eBay for a die and noticed Toolingstation in Western Sydney has a 1/2 BSW die from Sutton for around $30, and a P+N one for $15. They're both a 2in OD. Hard to tell the condition, but I've not been disappointed in other tools I've bought from him before. Thought you might be interested :)
Hi Adam,
Thanks for that. I will check it out.
Cheers Rob
I bought the P&N. Looks OK for the money.
Rob...got a question for you mate. If, say your want to use a 5mm metric die (M5 x 0.8) on a some turned down brass. What diameter would you turn the brass down to? I've got a great chart for taps from H&F on the shed wall that I constantly refer to for tapping.
I always use the nominal size of the die. In this case 5 mm. I only ever use charts for taps. Brass can distort when threading and one trick I use is to flip the die over and use the reverse side without any lead in taper (once you get it started). This will usually give a cleaner more regular thread. Brass can be tricky stuff to work. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Thanks Rob, I always find that if I use the nominal size that the thread is really tight. That's why I was wondering if you were supposed to be a little under. I've Googled heaps, but have come up with no charts, only the handy charts for tapping. Thanks mate and hope you're staying safe from Covid and also staying warm. Its bitter here today on the South Coast of NSW.
If it's a bit tight then reduce the diameter very slightly. It won't matter with brass as it's generally used for low torque applications.
If the thread profile looks complete and it measures up the same as a factory bolt (do a comparo) then it should be OK. The die being used could also be a bit dodgy. Those cheap Chinese ones are pretty basic. Quite a few things can do it, but deformation is top of the list. Sunny but cold here but I did get to Dan Murphys to stock up on beer specials :)
@@Xynudu Thanks Rob much appreciated mate and sorry to bug you with that question. Crack a beer and have a good arvo!
sir can you help me i'm looking P&N metric taps and die i have a set but i "m trying to look for bigger die and taps more like from 11mm to 20 mm don't know if they were ever made just like to try to get to full set i will send a picture later on of what i got regards Robert in NSW
Hi Robert, larger sizes are available, but they will be expensive. I know for a fact that 20 mm dies are sold, so I am sure you can get smaller sizes if you hunt around. Your best bet is to inquire at a major tool supplier/seller. Cheers Rob
this is the nature of the beast working with old British Iron!? oh hell I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's have a Bash !
That's set is worth a few hundred where I come from .......Boston Massachusetts that is...
I think you have mis-interpreted the labelling on the box. At the time the set was made (about 1910 or 1912) both 60 degree and 55 degree thread pitches were in common use and a purchaser would have had no problem understanding what he or she was buying. It was Whitworth thread form with the pitches stated on each item. I would say the set is well worth what you paid for it. Nowadays you almost never see sets with alignment collars. Re the "missing" tap holder, could the taps be assembled into the collar on the smaller handle? Kind regards.
Hi John, I could only go by the lettering on the dies and taps - which say "Whitworth". Cheers Rob
What is the purpose of the item which appears to look like a gear, 2nd item from bottom right in the case?
It's a tap guide.
What are the two interchangeable 'gear' wheels used for?
They are tap guides. Same as the smaller ones but have a serrated edge for gripping.
There is nothing that would have stopped me from picking that up for $20. Even if ultimately it's not useful to you, somebody will pay you handsomely to get it. Then you will have most of what you need of not more in order to buy all the Whitworth dies you'd like. All courtesy of GumTree and a little effort.
a "deal sweetener" for trade/swap/barter palavers at a steam show, if nothing else. with all the ancient machinery and hobbyist restoration down there, that set will probably be " golden unobtainium" when you find the right lunatic, err, hobbyist
Glorious set. I will give you your money back if you feel cheated😀.
_Dan_
Does that have a taper thread .
No.
I’m sure you could find some steam engine restore group that would wet their pants when they see that set😀
You could knock up that missing spacer.
I do wonder what those odd looking gears are for?
Very interesting find
Hi David,
They are not gears but a gripping surface for the two larger tap guides.
Cheers Rob
Great video, thank you for posting it. I live about 10 miles from the original factory. There’s not much left of the buildings, one is still standing and has since been refurbished into elderly housing. Here is a link to a museum in the area. They have a good bit of info about the manufacturing of that time. industrialhistory.org/about/
Thanks for the link. Very interesting. My tap and die set would be right at home there :)
Cheers Rob
there you go rob----search ebay ------Brass Split Button Die 26TPI From 1/4 - 1" all 55deg -----------brand new $28 delivered,to complete your set.geoff
Some days you eat the bear & some days the bear eats you :)
He who dies with a lot of tools, dies without enough tools. Nice purchase for $20 even if it isn't likely to see a lot of use.
Ok so bsw is a third standard for thread sizes?!
You put the 1/2UNF die back in the WW side....................it bugs me.
There are a lot more than three standards for thread sizes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_thread#ISO_standard_threads