I think for 5 man squads, the Knights are worth it over a Command Squad, but if you're going full 10 man I do love the Command Squad! But Knights can 100% be a nice, solid, midfield bully Unit especially with a Chaplain joining them!
I think you're right about the DW command squad being the best terminator unit but I have to give an honorable mention to the DW Knights. Every game I've taken them as a speed bump to anchor a flank. Just a 5 man unit. And every game they have over performed and rolled up that flank killing twice their points cost. I'll never leave home without em.
They definitely get an honourable mention, T5, 4W and -1D is really, really tasty, I just think they're still a tad overpriced all things considered, but still definitely a worthwhile pick if you're running a Deathwing list! :)
If you add a Primaris Apothecary to Azrael’s squad the Hellblasters are a nightmare fuel to exist. If you add Stubborn Tenacity then while the Squad is undersized they do even better, which gives you more reasons to constantly Supercharge at all times.
my nephew just played against another DA Player a few weeks ago. Terminator Captain, Strikemaster and 10 Command Squad Deathwing, and Killed The Lion with it.
if you take a shooty deathwing command squad and attach Belial and a strikemaster with bolter discipline, with storm of fire you can have all your shots be critting sustained lethal precision on a 5+ including the cyclone missiles. expensive but quite good against character attached units
Ravenwing seems to be really underrated on many levels. Vengeance speeders got a really nice buff with the new blast rules and the twin linked plasma batteries. 2 of them have a quite nice damage potential against any high toughness enemy. Darkshroud also pops a better save now and unless your opponent uses ignores cover, you can even negate -2 AP with AoC alongside. However, if you do happen to get shot down, vengeance speeders just avenge it. The nephilim jet fighter also seems to be a good choice now, if only the points were any better. Great survivablity and the new heavy bolter profile with the sustained hits is just a treat also, due to the hover mode you can start on T1. S5 is not the best, though you get 3 shots with twin linked and the 10 shots can also make the punch and you can easily amp up the AP from -1 to -3, you only need a Hailstrike and a Storm of Fire, or just use the lascannons. I put together a RW list with a lot of mid strengh high AP shooting units. First match against Custodes didn't go too well but also wasn't that bad either. Had I kept my distance, the golden bois would not have had the chance to engage in melee.
one neat little trick is having one drop pod in your and lion el johnson because people usually hwne they hear that you have drop pod they will disperse their units whic is normally good idea how ever lion in your list they usually disperse their battle line to thin and the ngood old lion will jsut bounce and slaughter enemy team bretty much alone
Azrael offers incredible value for points and my Deathwing Knights have never let me down; outside of some bad rolls now and then, they pretty consistently perform well for me. I'm discouraged to say that to this day, I have yet to get my hands on a Lion miniature, he's sold out every single time I go to GW's website and my local stores can't keep him in stock on the rare occasion they get him at all. I'm hoping he comes with the reported range refresh coming early next year, this is ridiculous.
Judicar Heavenfall Blade leading Blade guard Azzy leading 10 man hell blaster Inquisitor Greyfax leading 5 man intercessor squad in an impulsor and another 5 man int to stick on obj in deployment then move up and screen deep strike then you'll have extra points to have leeway and flavor like Lion or maybe Ancient leading DW knights with pennant of remembrance for a truly durable unit
@@TheSixMachine As someone who's been running Azrael with 10 Hellblasters since 10th Dropped, I have managed to straight up delete things I probably shouldn't. Bring it in a 1000 point game and use Oath of Moments on your target, and let the Hellblasters just wipe it off the floor.
Tbh I like strike master with the bolter discipline instead of Azrael. 5 points cheaper could be the difference in what squad you bring. Less wounds more toughness
Black Knights are expensive. It's 115 points to fight infantry or elite infantry (which space marines don't have issues with) or scratch a monster. You can pay 145 pts for a Gladiator Lancer and hurt vehicles or monsters, maybe even kill one. Black Knights should really be only 100 pts, not competitive at all imo. I'm surprised the Darkshroud or Vengeance didn't make the cut. The Vengeance is really cheap for D6+1+Blast 3 damage str 9 plasma shots and only cost 160. They'll do much more than the Black Knights. Darkshroud is -1 to hit on all ranged weapons attacking nearby units (including itself) and grants benefit of cover to them as well. That's a big cut to firepower going into your army that can span over two blocks of terminators sitting on two different objectives. Any reason not to include them?
The Vengeance and Darkshroud were absolutely on the list of possibles when I was doing the video, and I did really weight up swapping the Black Knights for the Darkshroud. I think overall the darkshroud is better than the vengeance, but that MIGHT just be because my brain still just jumps straight to a Lancer when I'm putting a list together! On the Black Knight front, 115 points for 3 is maybe a tad pricier than I'd like I admit, I would really love them to be around the 100 points, but I do think they have a decent purpose especially in a mono/heavy ravenwing list, they can do a good job against infantry and are solid at hunting down longer range Enemy Units and at least tying them up, I like the idea of 6 alongside Sammael, it's pricey but advance, shoot, and still charge could be a decent combo for them against the right target!
I’ve been mulling over a deathwing terminator squad lead by captain and ancient with pennant, versus deathwing command squad lead by captain and whether it benefits from the ancient with pennant or not. Any thoughts?
The Ancient in the Command Squad unfortunately can't take an enhancement so technically can't use the Pennant, you have to take an 'extra' Ancient from the main Marine Index which... I think is a bit annoying/nonsensical, perhaps they'll iron out that interaction in the Codex when it arrives!
Big fan of Chappy on a bike, I bring one in almost all my Ravenwing lists! Being able to give him Bolter Discipline in a squad of 6 outriders and an ATV makes them actually decently shooty, and gives them the ability to fight their way out of a paper bag if they do get caught in melee! ;)
Knights of Caliban says 'the Unit', and when a Leader joins a Unit they do become part of that 'Unit', so... unless someone wants to correct me(?) I think they should do, so that would give the Leader anti-Monster and anti-Vehicle 4+, which... actually makes a Captain on Bike with a Thunder Hammer quite a scary prospect!
@@TheSixMachine with heavanfall blade enhancement for 6-7 attack str 9-10 ap-2 dmg 3-4 mortal wounds vs monsters an vehicles on 4+ will wreck most monsters and vehicles no stress,my ravenwing 2000pts runs 2 squads of black knights with one lead by a captain and the other by a chaplain and a command squad led by samael the rest is 3 minimal bike squads and 3 max squads of attack bikes.
The Lion moving up alongside a Command Squad would definitely be a scary thing for your opponent! The Command Squad in a Gladius for the Assault Doctrine advance and charge is also a really nice interaction thanks to the Champion's +1 Adv/Charge bonus!
@@TheSixMachine I'm so torn on what to do. My initial idea was a 5man DW Knight squad with Lion and then have another DW 5 man terminator squad. But a 10 man DW command with Lion following instead sounds crazy. Thoughts?
And yeah, I'll be running Gladius. That would be a cool 10man ball for opponent to think about (I have another 10man ball of 10 hell blasters + primaris apothecary AND Azrael)
What are you top 5 Dark Angels Units in 10th?!
i am building Dangels Green wing led by papa angel himself
and my top 5 is Drop bod
Deathwing Knights are amazing, perhaps the only terminator unit in 10th that is worth taking at 5-men, especially with the Chaplain attached
I think for 5 man squads, the Knights are worth it over a Command Squad, but if you're going full 10 man I do love the Command Squad! But Knights can 100% be a nice, solid, midfield bully Unit especially with a Chaplain joining them!
@TheSixMachine 10 knights are always with a Chaplain in terminator armour and Azzy++ are mvps every game
Deathwing command squad is why i play the game. That profile of the cyclone launcher, visually, is why i first picked up a mini. Just the coolest.
Yeah they look awesome, I love Deathwing so much!
I think you're right about the DW command squad being the best terminator unit but I have to give an honorable mention to the DW Knights.
Every game I've taken them as a speed bump to anchor a flank. Just a 5 man unit. And every game they have over performed and rolled up that flank killing twice their points cost. I'll never leave home without em.
They definitely get an honourable mention, T5, 4W and -1D is really, really tasty, I just think they're still a tad overpriced all things considered, but still definitely a worthwhile pick if you're running a Deathwing list! :)
@@TheSixMachine I think that's right. I'd feel much better about their cost if they were AP -2. Strength 6 I can live with.
Throwing a frontline of the Lion and a DW Command squad at teh enemy with a gunline of hellblasters with Azrael is REALLY Nasty.
If you add a Primaris Apothecary to Azrael’s squad the Hellblasters are a nightmare fuel to exist. If you add Stubborn Tenacity then while the Squad is undersized they do even better, which gives you more reasons to constantly Supercharge at all times.
Preach!
my nephew just played against another DA Player a few weeks ago. Terminator Captain, Strikemaster and 10 Command Squad Deathwing, and Killed The Lion with it.
if you take a shooty deathwing command squad and attach Belial and a strikemaster with bolter discipline, with storm of fire you can have all your shots be critting sustained lethal precision on a 5+ including the cyclone missiles. expensive but quite good against character attached units
Ravenwing seems to be really underrated on many levels. Vengeance speeders got a really nice buff with the new blast rules and the twin linked plasma batteries. 2 of them have a quite nice damage potential against any high toughness enemy. Darkshroud also pops a better save now and unless your opponent uses ignores cover, you can even negate -2 AP with AoC alongside. However, if you do happen to get shot down, vengeance speeders just avenge it. The nephilim jet fighter also seems to be a good choice now, if only the points were any better. Great survivablity and the new heavy bolter profile with the sustained hits is just a treat also, due to the hover mode you can start on T1. S5 is not the best, though you get 3 shots with twin linked and the 10 shots can also make the punch and you can easily amp up the AP from -1 to -3, you only need a Hailstrike and a Storm of Fire, or just use the lascannons.
I put together a RW list with a lot of mid strengh high AP shooting units. First match against Custodes didn't go too well but also wasn't that bad either. Had I kept my distance, the golden bois would not have had the chance to engage in melee.
one neat little trick is having one drop pod in your and lion el johnson because people usually hwne they hear that you have drop pod they will disperse their units whic is normally good idea how ever lion in your list they usually disperse their battle line to thin and the ngood old lion will jsut bounce and slaughter enemy team bretty much alone
been waiting for this one, love the videos
Thank you! That means a lot, and yeah I was really excited to do this one! 🤣
Great analysis! Thanks for creating.
Thanks for the comment, much appreciated! :D
Azrael offers incredible value for points and my Deathwing Knights have never let me down; outside of some bad rolls now and then, they pretty consistently perform well for me. I'm discouraged to say that to this day, I have yet to get my hands on a Lion miniature, he's sold out every single time I go to GW's website and my local stores can't keep him in stock on the rare occasion they get him at all. I'm hoping he comes with the reported range refresh coming early next year, this is ridiculous.
Judicar Heavenfall Blade leading Blade guard Azzy leading 10 man hell blaster Inquisitor Greyfax leading 5 man intercessor squad in an impulsor and another 5 man int to stick on obj in deployment then move up and screen deep strike then you'll have extra points to have leeway and flavor like Lion or maybe Ancient leading DW knights with pennant of remembrance for a truly durable unit
Watching this video it is now nuts that Azzy got a dataslate points discount down to 105!
Its either DW knights or Azreal... if its DA specific :)
Azreal with Hellblasters and a Apothecary with stubbern tenacity 👌👌
Azrael and an Apoth with Hellblasters is indeed a super good combo, haven't run it myself yet... but I can't wait to give it a try!
@TheSixMachine the secret is stubbern tenacity! So if you are always one or two hellblasters down, then you hit on 2 instead of 3 while moving
@@TheSixMachine As someone who's been running Azrael with 10 Hellblasters since 10th Dropped, I have managed to straight up delete things I probably shouldn't. Bring it in a 1000 point game and use Oath of Moments on your target, and let the Hellblasters just wipe it off the floor.
Tbh I like strike master with the bolter discipline instead of Azrael. 5 points cheaper could be the difference in what squad you bring. Less wounds more toughness
Black Knights are expensive. It's 115 points to fight infantry or elite infantry (which space marines don't have issues with) or scratch a monster. You can pay 145 pts for a Gladiator Lancer and hurt vehicles or monsters, maybe even kill one. Black Knights should really be only 100 pts, not competitive at all imo.
I'm surprised the Darkshroud or Vengeance didn't make the cut. The Vengeance is really cheap for D6+1+Blast 3 damage str 9 plasma shots and only cost 160. They'll do much more than the Black Knights. Darkshroud is -1 to hit on all ranged weapons attacking nearby units (including itself) and grants benefit of cover to them as well. That's a big cut to firepower going into your army that can span over two blocks of terminators sitting on two different objectives.
Any reason not to include them?
The Vengeance and Darkshroud were absolutely on the list of possibles when I was doing the video, and I did really weight up swapping the Black Knights for the Darkshroud. I think overall the darkshroud is better than the vengeance, but that MIGHT just be because my brain still just jumps straight to a Lancer when I'm putting a list together!
On the Black Knight front, 115 points for 3 is maybe a tad pricier than I'd like I admit, I would really love them to be around the 100 points, but I do think they have a decent purpose especially in a mono/heavy ravenwing list, they can do a good job against infantry and are solid at hunting down longer range Enemy Units and at least tying them up, I like the idea of 6 alongside Sammael, it's pricey but advance, shoot, and still charge could be a decent combo for them against the right target!
I’ve been mulling over a deathwing terminator squad lead by captain and ancient with pennant, versus deathwing command squad lead by captain and whether it benefits from the ancient with pennant or not. Any thoughts?
The Ancient in the Command Squad unfortunately can't take an enhancement so technically can't use the Pennant, you have to take an 'extra' Ancient from the main Marine Index which... I think is a bit annoying/nonsensical, perhaps they'll iron out that interaction in the Codex when it arrives!
Thoughts on taking a chaplain on bike instead of Sam?
Big fan of Chappy on a bike, I bring one in almost all my Ravenwing lists! Being able to give him Bolter Discipline in a squad of 6 outriders and an ATV makes them actually decently shooty, and gives them the ability to fight their way out of a paper bag if they do get caught in melee! ;)
Does Knights of Caliban also apply to characters leading a unit of RW Knights?
Knights of Caliban says 'the Unit', and when a Leader joins a Unit they do become part of that 'Unit', so... unless someone wants to correct me(?) I think they should do, so that would give the Leader anti-Monster and anti-Vehicle 4+, which... actually makes a Captain on Bike with a Thunder Hammer quite a scary prospect!
@@TheSixMachine with heavanfall blade enhancement for 6-7 attack str 9-10 ap-2 dmg 3-4 mortal wounds vs monsters an vehicles on 4+ will wreck most monsters and vehicles no stress,my ravenwing 2000pts runs 2 squads of black knights with one lead by a captain and the other by a chaplain and a command squad led by samael the rest is 3 minimal bike squads and 3 max squads of attack bikes.
instead of Deathwing Command Squad, could a 5man Deathwing Knights with Lion attached be a competitive little murdering pack?
Unfortunately The Lion does not attach to any Units.
@@SlickSodaProductions you're absolutely right, sorry, I meant tagging along with them ;)
The Lion moving up alongside a Command Squad would definitely be a scary thing for your opponent! The Command Squad in a Gladius for the Assault Doctrine advance and charge is also a really nice interaction thanks to the Champion's +1 Adv/Charge bonus!
@@TheSixMachine I'm so torn on what to do. My initial idea was a 5man DW Knight squad with Lion and then have another DW 5 man terminator squad. But a 10 man DW command with Lion following instead sounds crazy. Thoughts?
And yeah, I'll be running Gladius. That would be a cool 10man ball for opponent to think about (I have another 10man ball of 10 hell blasters + primaris apothecary AND Azrael)
are there even 5 competitive units?
Possibly not anymore! 😅😅