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Great Video again! You might be interested maybe in German small audio company Abacus-Electronics. Minimalistic looks but a way of their own with audio engineering. From quiet affordable but great sounding till a step up in price. You can find some very good German reviews.
@P T Buying a separate sound processor is the way around that for having multi channel setups for home theater etc. just WAY more expensive and "intense" if you dont know what youre doing
@P T oh yeah, a separate processor is sometimes better for balanced connections and running higher power amps blah blah blah.... Thousands of dollars more for it and "accessories".
ive had integrated amps that sounded better than my separates - ive had seperates that sounded better than my integrateds - it really depends on where u are at in your audiophile journey and where u are in your life - it changes like the seasons in the northeast - when i have tubes - i want solid state - when i have integrateds - i want separates - when i have separates i want integrateds - when i have class d - i want class a - there is no rhyme or reason to want i want at any given time
I AGREE - A PROPERLY DESIGNED AMP WILL HAVE A POWER SUPPLY FULLY CAPABLE OF DELIVERING MORE THAN ENOUGH CLEAN POWER TO AT LEAST IT RATED WATTAGE -- WITH A KNOWN REPUTABLE AUDIO COMPANY THIS IS MOSTLY A NON ISSUE -- AS IS THE ISOLATION ASPECT -- AND SOME OF THE BETTER INT AMPS DO HAVE SEPARATE POWER SUPPLIES FOR EACH CHANNEL -- THEY'RE HIGH DOLLAR -- BUT THEY SOUND IT TOO -- LISTEN TO THE VIOLA LABS CHORALE IF YOU GET A CHANCE -- IT WAS END GAME FOR ME -- ALL I'LL EVER NEED
You might need NAD, I still have my integrated from 1999, however the left channel goes a little silent from time to time, it had the most perfect satisfyingly sound an audiophile could ever crave, but looking at new NAD they seem so far out, class D only, no more analogue, everything streaming, they seem to be straying away from their old philosophy, I might go with Vincent Audio, Rotel.
I gave up after the first point. So integrated amps are "expensive" because dealers, markups etc. And that doesn't apply to separates?? Plus I'm yet to see any situation where an integrated amp costs more than an equivalent pre/power setup, so for those of us on a limited budget, integrated is often the best bang for buck.
@@Frankonero12 Well, for example, I wanted to upgrade my Emotiva amp with a Parasound Amp this year - both are attached to a pre-amp. I can use the same pre-amp, sell the Emotiva amp and them use my new Parasound power amp. It is componentized. That is what I mean.
@@Frankonero12 I see what you are saying. BTW an Integrated amp can make a good preamp if it has preamp out (I am using my very good Music Hall integrated amp for this function) so an integrated amp can be functional in this regard. I just like separates.
I have owned both receivers and integrated amps and loved both but I have been a separates guy for over 30 years. I had the Carver M500t power amp paired with an NAD preamp for most of those 30 years. I recently got the Schiit Freya+ preamp and I pair that with the Jeff Rowland 125 power amp. I'm a happy camper 🙂
And I'll bet that Jeff Rowland power amp set you back a lot more than just about any integrated you could buy, which was one of my points. Even an entry level power amp, if there is such a thing.
@@ziqfriq the Rowland was the most expensive piece of audio gear I've purchased. It did not bother me because I had the money and wanted an amp of superior quality. At my age it will be the last amp I purchase. No regrets whatsoever.
I dug the video! Plus I always admire the Justice poster behind you. Anyhow, I have a video idea for you: the best value system builds at $1,000, $2,000, and $5,000. It would be fun to hear your picks and why you chose them.
Completely agree with your thesis here. Think of the power supplies, interconnects, and cables as your "system". You can then swap components in and out. Buy quality. Buy it once. When upgrading, consider the entire signal path. I've had my (integrated) amp for about 25 yrs. I'm looking at upgrading - there's been movement in power amplification technologies that make this worthwhile. But my speakers are perfectly fine for my (smallish brightish) living room. The issue for me now becomes that to upgrade to the pre and power amps I want is a $12K expense (I'm contemplating Holo Audio preamp and Schiit Audio Tyr monoblocks) - CRAZY!!! Maybe for now I contemplate the Schiit Audio Freya+ and either Burson Timekeeper3x GT or Schiit Vidar 2 monoblocks (the Aegirs would be great but by Dynaudio speakers are relatively insensitive 86dB and 4 Ohms...)
Well,it depends. I got a Schiit Ragnorak 2 (the just an amp version without a DAC or phono stage.) I spend half the year listening to the Raggy, and then the other half of the year I use it as a pre-amp with a Decware tube amp. Fun. And, the main reason I went that route is ease of use, space saving, etc. AND there is plenty of options to upgrade the digital front end or analog front end.
Nope. I will never give up my Sansui AU7900 integrated amp that powers my JBL 100t's. So many inputs and yes I stream through it and also use a Ifi Zen phone preamp through one of the tape inputs. Of course it is a 1975 vintage piece of gear that has been completely restored to new. Just a complete versatile amp. For me, perfect.
I have to agree with that model, after well over a hundred (maybe even 2-300) different amps/receivers etc., the Sansui au-7900 is in my top 10 favorites, if not higher on the list, maybe even cracks the top 5, it's been a few years but I'd have to hear it again. Also, that's an awesome set of speakers you have also, big lively fellas.
@@JukeboxAlley The speakers are the rare black lacquer finish. Most people have never seen a pair because the finish gave JBL problems and not very many were made.
@@airgunnersc9335 those are keepers, I've only saw one set for sale in the past with black piano finish, I believe it was only a special order option if I remember right, you never see them around.
@@airgunnersc9335 and they quit making them because it caused them problems, I would imagine some people beat them up and didnt take care of them was the most likely the problem, the black finish is tough to keep perfect that's for sure, that's interesting, just gained some knowledge I didn't know about them. So if you have a sharp set I'd say hang onto em for sure.
One thing to look for on integrateds or receivers, vintage or new is the Pre Amp Out / Power Amp In jumper found on many models. It is usually a metal U shaped metal bar. I call it the nail. Pull the nail and install just about any RCA cable known to man (even the cheap audio man). You will be amazed. I discovered this trick in the late 70's when I was in audio retail.
Hey Randy, entertaining as always. I’m with you on the dedicated boxes route to best quality and the most I would ever want to see in a single box is the pre and power amp. Having said that, one of the cheapest ways to get into quality vinyl playback is with a vintage NAD integrated amp with built in phono stage. Just to add a little reality in your cost comparisons, if a manufacturer chooses to sell direct, they don’t charge half the price of a dealer sold box. They may not have a dealer margin to pay but they do have a direct sales operation with shipping, free trials, returns etc to fund. Best case, they’re probably saving the consumer about fifteen percent. More to the point, unless you’re prepared to buy five amplifiers with a view to shipping four of them back, you’re never sure you picked the best one for your system.
I agree, separates are preferred. And of course cables make a difference. Probably less so than a power filter and linear power supplies for all your separates, but they definitely make a difference. Otherwise I would not have spent 800 bucks in total on my cables.
I started my audiophile journey back in the 70's with a Marantz 2245 + JBL speakers + Dual turntable. I soon graduated to separates and quickly learned the costly lesson that all pre-amps are not created equal. LOL. I totally agree with you about separates, but I have returned to integrated for simplicity's sake (TA1). Also, I bought a power conditioner purely for device protection from dirty power/spikes ($300+). I was completely surprised when I plugged my WiiM Mini and J2 DAC into it and turned them on. The sound improvement was very noticeable and totally unexpected but thoroughly loved. I guess this would be in the neighborhood of your power cord statements. Keep up the good work Randy, your videos are very much appreciated.
Separates will always cost you more money, but I do give you better variety for upgrading. But if you're someone who's not going to be upgrading integrated do make a great choice space wise. You are always need more Rackspace that's a bigger more expensive rack or stand. Before I saw this video had already purchased an integrated, but I bought a integrated without a DAC or photo stage and went with separates for these devices, which still gives me a decent upgrade route. If you're someone who doesn't plan upgrade much integrated can make a lot of sense. Be sure to audition your equipment first before you buy, that way you get the sound you like.
This about sums it up, for convenience go receiver/integrated on a simpler setup and it'll be just fine, but if you like trying different flavors of amps and extra tuning options also added gain and filtering, more flexibility and fun if you like to change things out a lot, then that system for critical listening and interchanging components etc. then separates will pretty well always win that case.
I can hear if I am using wire from the 70s. You probably think that’s obvious but I can only discover it by changing to new wires. (I never know how I’ve treated my car until I change the oil). I was a sound technician around 15 years. (By the way I agree with everything you are saying along with a caveat). You would be surprised what you can get away with unless they are listening for it. A quote from beyond my recollection. “You won’t hear it if you aren’t listening for it”. That’s what sound professionals learn in training. I just discovered your channel today. I like it.
I just watched this how did I miss it. Great video and spot on. All of my systems are separates with the exception of my AV movie system which still has a separate amp running some of its many channels. I will argue separates are best any day. Systems : Yamaha, McIntosh, Rotel and soon Emotiva. AV Marantz
Hey Randy, great video. I got started with an SVS Soundbase. It has given me great sound, and I've had a ton of holy crap moments when listening to familiar music. That being said, within about a year, it became very apparent to me how limited this device is. It was super user friendly as a beginner, so it allowed me to have a non intimidating way into the audiophile community. However, I'm already on a quest for a separates based system, and so, as you've mentioned, will end up spending more money in the long run. Integrated amps definitely seem to have their place, but if you get the bug, they don't seem like a likely endpoint.
Not sure how separates could be cheaper than an integrated ? More flexibility yes but dollar to dollar the integrated will offer better value and sound imho. I do agree buy one with no dac or phono , pre-outs are handy for a sub.
I'm confused - how does the first argument on costs not also apply to separates? If a DAC retails for 500, wouldn't that 'actually' be a 250-worth DAC? (following the 2000-1000 logic for the integrated)
I bought a Yamaha AS3200 integrated amplifier and after a year and a half it sounds better than most separates in the same price range. It’s built like a tank and the sound (on certain recordings) has such wide sound coming from multiple feet on each side of my speakers that I keep looking three feet past them expecting to see speakers coming from there. Depth is easily 5 feet deep and the sound is amazing. It has pre amp outputs and I run two subs. Integrated is a good choice.
You are totally right! If you are an audiophile, then you already know separates work best. What company is going to give you a discreet path from a class-A balanced dac to a class-A balanced preamp to a class-A amp? Not to mention the wonderful cables to play with in-between... I feel most integrated amps are for a different kind of person. Not an audiophile person, just a listener on a budget that doesn't care about all the instruments gabled together. Just my observation...
Used AVRs are the next trend. Consider the value for 2 channel setups IF JUST GETTING STARTED** Amp, Dac, EQ, and just stream from your smart tv through hdmi or optical. Easy to uppgrade to 5.1, or an external dac if need be- bam you're 90% of the way there for a couple hundred bucks
My parent's old Denon was impossibly hard to ever use. Now it's just used as a power amplifier with the volume left at about 3. Everything connected to it is doing the rest/acting as various preamp(s). Thankfully bypassing all the junk and using it as just an amplifier was fairly easy.
I have an integrated amp Technics from the 80s and cannot find a better sound signature, yet. I have tried many other amps/preamps, but its direct non-intrusive SS approach is what I like, you can color it with your DAC, tubes, different source devices, etc. Plus the style is so cool 🤩
I am using my 7 year old excellent Music Hall Intergrated Amp (which, at 50 watts per channel, is simply not powerful enough for my new 500 square foot main listening room) as a pre-amp with a pre-amp output. It had a great phono stage but I decided to get rid of my vinyl collection a few years ago, It sounds great as a pre for my Emotiva 100 watt per channel power amp (which is great for a budget buy). I now only listen to my CD collection and Alexa on occasion--- and it sounds great.
Totally agree! Amps can last for a while, but particularly DACs get new features every other week. With phono stage, either you are not into vinyl, so threw away some cash, or you are into vinyl, and then are stuck with a MM-only phono stage. MC phono stage on integrated is pretty rare, and serious vinyl folks will sooner or later go the MC-route. One the few Pre-Power-integrated ones I would consider is the PassLabs INT25. And yes, I made the integrated mistake (Rotel RA1572), but now am all separate.
Same years of experience here. My experience. There a good and bad pre and poweramps. Some pre and poweramps sound less then a good integrated. The preamp output was never that great from the integrated amps I have used. Better then get a good pre amp also. Powercables etc do make (a lot) of difference agree on that one👌
hey - who cut the cheese - any amp with speaker A and speaker B with adequate current has the secret sauce so you can set up two sets of your favorite speakers side by side and run them how you choose to ........ ha ha
While I agree with you overall, a well chosen integrated amp or even receiver (CA AXR100) has the flexibility to feed external sources in. Also, being someone who will drive themselves bananas reading/reviewing my options, the 'one and done' approach is both a stress reliever and gets me back to listening instead of researching. Cheers
Preamps are too expensive for me. The only options I see are using a Topping e30 in preamp mode ($150) or a Emotiva PT1 ($499) both of which have remotes. Then need to speed $500 - $1000 for a stereo power amp. Both of the Topping and Emotiva have USB which does no good for a family room set up and only 1 optical and 1 coax. I think I made right decision with Yamaha and Cambridge Stereo integrateds for my two set ups.
I had an Akai integrated for decades. It had wire bridges on the back to connect the pre to power. I didn't use it after the first five years of owning it, but kept it because if either pre or power seperates had to go for surgery I could use the part of the Akai that could step in for the one at the repair shop. That's another reason, if part of your integrated fails, the whole thing will be gone for a while. With seperates, if the dac goes you still have the rest of the gear and can work around that. And as soon as your warranty is over and a power amp fails on an integrated.... Buying seperates saves you from single point of failure doom scenarios
My amplifier is class D Marantz Melody X. DAC is not used in the analog stage. The chips inside are TAS5142 and TAS5558. The only dac used is for the TV sound connected via Toslink cable. Class D amps are getting better each day.
I'd be very interested in hearing your recommendations for cheap pre-amp and power amp combinations. My 35 year old integrated has just given up the ghost, so I'm on the hunt and looking for ideas.
I didn't do separate components because i wanted something minimalistic that was capable of decent surround. I went with the marantz mm7055. It does everything i need plus some. Sounds good when watching movies and sounds good when listening to lossless audio.
Many of the people commenting did not understand the point of this video. The point is not that integrated amplifiers are worse, but that they offer less flexibility and less value for money. For a fraction of the price, you can build a system that will be upgradeable and offer excellent sound quality. If you can afford to pay over $1000 for an integrated amp, go for it, if not, it's a good idea, if you have a more limited budget, buying the separate components will allow you to save money and upgrade your system without having to pay a lot of money each time.
digital sources: computers, Roku TV phono-preamps: TC760LC, Pro-Ject Phono Box S2, fed by .... many cartridges! preamps: 3 each DIY Sanyo LC75342 chipset in aluminium cases (note the proper spelling of aluminium!), 4 inputs (analogue RCA), bass/treble control, remote amps: Dayton Audio APA150 (class A/B, Parts Express) Dayton Audio APA102BT (class D) vintage Superscope R-310 receiver speakers: Dayton Audio B652, Jamo C4, 3inch Tang Band full range in small bass-reflex boxes
As always, an interesting and thoughtful perspective you present. Great thoughts and a fun video. Thanks! I've been under the belief that separates would always have a higher cost, not thinking about perceivable to the ear "disadvantages" that could be present with "heavily" integrated amps. I can see your point about being difficult to go backwards if a piece of hardware has too many bells and whistles that could bring noise into the mix and cannot be circumnavigated easily to improve the output. A few years back I got a reconditioned Parasound Integrated amp (it has a Wolfson Dac) at a good price. It's got enough juice to run power hungry stand mounts. But its "integration" is just the DAC (I pay no attention to the phono outputs since I don't do vinyl.) Simple in its integration I believe, may be why it sounds very decent. I can of course input from an "improved" DAC and it's nice to have that option (as a "cheap" audio dude, I am using a Chrome Audio puck (remember those) outputting digitally and when it dies, I'll be on the hunt for a decent streamer / DAC (thinking and hoping I can find an integrated unit that is decent, but doesn't break the bank). Or should I only go with separates for a streamer and DAC (that's an improvement over my DAC in the Parasound)? Grrrr, the separates vs. integrated debate/decision making conundrum strikes again! Curses you CAM !!
Dang skippy, Randy! I started with a Denon and then an Onkyo. Both of them were baseline AVR's and I spent probably about $300 on each of them. I learned a lot with them, but I mainly learned that I was trapped inside of the metal box. Now I'm running Schiit Freya, Modius, Mani 2, BlueSound Node, and an Anthem MCA 225 G2 amp. I still use the Onkyo to control the HDMI mess like the TV and Roku, but those duties will be going to Emotiva soon enough. It's a whole different world.
There are those who think some of the best amps on the market are Hegel integrated. But you could prolly get a decent used car for what they cost. I'm a separates guy. I love my Mapletree Ultra 4SE tube pre. It makes any amp I use sound better. I also have a Schiit Saga and while it might actually be a bit more transparent, lacks the magic. Plus I like that the Mapletree has gain. The Saga wins on taking up less space though, and looks great w/ my Bifrost2, MacMini and Audiolab 6000 CDT, all in the matte aluminum finish.
If I was in the market for new hifi gear I would go separates all the way. Considering that if you get an integrated and a board or chip even a capacitor craps out more than likely it cannot be serviced by someone who fixes electronics because the company won't give out the schematics, sell you the part or he will just refuse for those reasons. They usually crap out right as the warranty ends so the manufacture either quotes you a crazy price to repair or you have to buy a new one. I went vintage receiver because I like terrestrial radio (my SX-828 has ridiculous reception) and they are serviceable with enough line level inputs for a cd player, streamer (wiim pro) and record player. I wouldn't recommend that path for someone new to this hobby or has budget constraints, separates are the way to go. Good stuff Randy!!
But if something craps out on a separate (leaving both components useless) doesn't it still have to be repaired or replaced? or am I missing something?
@@tikilord66 Separates mean that the amp, pre amp, dac etc are all individual and integrated amp has all of those in one device. So you just replace the defective individual component so instead of having to replace the entire integrated amp.
Having been in the "business" of audio, markup on the components generally is 60% to retail. Manufacturer to wholesale is generally 20%. And all that is variable depending on volume, incentives. Buy from a larger dealer as they'll have more built in "wiggle" room on price. If you want to bypass a dealers showroom, specific expertise and ability to showcase much gear, then experiment with the internet and direct buying.
The precious metals of your main amp and speakers are what is necessary to deliver. Only the head needs to change to get things to analog for our ears.
I have the Yamaha stereo on the thumbnail. It's a 100 watt per Chanel , all ANALOG inputs. It's a no nonsense very very good stereo receiver. I say this for several reasons. 1. PRICE, less Than $200. 2. YAMAHA quality. 3. AMPLIFIER POWER. 4. CLASS A-B.- AMPLIFIER. take the lid of without being plugged in. Just take a look at the way it's made. I have an old 1970s Teac record player or LP. my my my, hooked up to my favorit JBL STUDIO 530s. And to my JAMO STUDIO2, 93s. Oh boy. Absolutely sonic bliss.!! The midrange and highs are totally NUTS and of the human comprehension of 20Hz. / 20,000Klz. Now I know what everyone says about sound stage and imaging. Once you have your choice of speakers and audio equipment hooked up. Play around with the hight and spacing, it's free to do so. Once you have your spacing and height all figured out. Play the record of Pink Floyd, Dark side of the Moon. As loud as possible with out distortion. Which is about 1 or 2 O'clock on the volume scale of 1 to 10. Sit back and enjoy. I hooked up my 1970s very old ADC Spectrum Analizer / Equilizer. Some say don't do it. But I keep an open mind about things according to the way it was recorded. Or if it's a CD, SACD, or LP. Most of the time I don't use it. When don't use it I sometimes flip the, ( DIRECT AUDIO ), Button on my Yamaha rec. Amp. I will keep the bass set at about the 1 O'clock position and the treble set about the same. And just enjoy my speakers and the way the recording is. It's a wounder full thing. And should not cost a fortune to do so. I got my JBLs for $299 and the Jamos for 199. Bear in mind when both these speakers came out they were triple that cost.
Integrated amplifiers can still be excellent, and I’ve just bought one! But, it is a bare bones dual mono analogue integrated with pre outputs. My phono stage is separate, as is my DAC and the streamer that feeds the DAC. I have freedom to change components as times change and equipment evolves.
Integrated is what I am considering because my space has one outlet (2 plug spaces). I don't think I can accommodate a bunch of separates. I already have integrated, phono, and subwoofer to share a single plug. Not optimal at all, I know. Though, I haven't bought any of this yet so I am still figuring it all out.
Integrated amplifiers are a good way for companies to do a one chassis cheap product. However, that is not always the case. I have two complete systems, both two channel, in different rooms one is all separates (Krell) the other has an integrated amp as it's heart (Denon PMA-2000IVR). Each system performs exceptionally well. That Denon is a monster. So versatile. A power house. The Krell Separates are, well, Krell monsters from The Forbidden Planet. The Denon is such a perfect example of what can be accomplished when designing an integrated amplifier. The PMA-2000 series is very popular in Japan for a reason: works well in smaller living spaces, have a very good phono stage and high build quality. They are not cheap new or used and the America market version's rarely come up for sale. You're thoughts don't have any impact on these Japanese market integrated amps. Just like the big recievers of the 1970s they are very well made and are sought after. BTW--love you're show. Sarcasm is good for the soul.
I guess you're talking about the budget sector here, in which case I'm inclined to agree. Move upscale, however, and it's a very different story, with integrated options by manufacturers like Hegel, Accuphase and Primaluna that certainly compete with separate offerings in the same price class.
Could we get more gain on your vocals in future videos? Any time the commercials cut in they’re much louder; it’s a real bummer on headphones. Love your channel, my system has never sounded better!
I HAD SEPARATES FOR YEARS -- ONCE I GOT A TRULY GOOD INT -- I NEVER WENT BACK -- NOW THE BIG REASON IS SIMPLY THE SPACE SAVING ASPECT OF IT -- MUCH EASIER TO DEAL WITH -- GOT A BRAND NEW MODWRIGHT NOW & AM TOTALLY SATISFIED
When making my decision on components, a lot of these points are why I ended up going with an analog integrate amp. All of the digital sources will need to upgraded every time there is a major shift in the markets. Agree with the premise of the video though. All-in-one's convenience is also it's greatest downside. You basically have to always start over.
Come on, good integrated amps have great amp sections, plenty of inputs for external devices, and great flexibility. If you don't have those things, you bought a cheap integrated
Integrated amps are great and usually sound way better than a receiver. Many receivers have a ton of features that most people simply don't use or need.
I really don't think dealers offer a service anymore. there very few and far in between where you can go and a/b a component or speaker like in old times. they all should sell straight to consumer with a window of return and factor in those costs instead.
You can say power cables make a difference, and maybe they do up to a point. Power supply is only as good as the power at the wall outlet. The cables your house is wired with really is not great and it is definitely not shielded and will pickup all the interference out there. If you have really cheap, thin power cords, then an upgrade may make a difference, that's why I said, up to a point they may make a difference. Separate power supplies, however, do make a difference as it is able to supply power needed for the particular module, rather than being an all in one.
I have a nad 316 bee integrated amp I bought retail for 330 dollars. I don’t know where people are getting off on thinking it’s a fantastic component including the reviews. It’s not a bad piece of equipment don’t get me wrong but when comparing it to older Yamaha receiver my brother gave me I like the Yamaha. All a integrated amp is, is receiver without the tuner. You get what you pay for. As for separates I have a vintage Adcom Gfa 535 power amp and also a Rotel 60 watt power amp. Definitely cleaner sound maybe it’s not completely night and day but definitely a difference in the sound quality. I also read that in this hobby every thing is in increments and a price point. Example a 300 dollar amp hooked up to a 2000 dollar pair of speakers won’t be good sound. Etc
I’m sorry think you missed the mark on this video for most people an integrated amps work well love my emotiva ta1 best purchase I made Still love you brother and will continue to subscribe and watch your live streams just disagree with this video have a great day 😊
thanks, man. I think it's a great integrated. I just like to have separates and wanted to have folks think about things. the vast majority of products sold are integrated. I wanted to throw a grenade out there. and I mention the ta1 and 2 in the video about being good because of their upgrade path
Funny! Ya, I used to drink the better wires better sound KoolAide. Wrapping the speaker cables around your head is supposed to help you hear the wires better.
Have decided to divorce my music from my Denon surround receiver. Thru all the CAM vids I have easily decided upon all the separates I would like. Except for the pre amp. List so far is: Parasound P6, Emotiva PT2, Musical Fidelity M6S, PS Audio Stellar GainCell, Marantz NR1200 as Pre, Acoustic Invader, Reisong Q6, or Schiit Freya+. While low pass filter and balanced outs would be nice, sound will decide. Any I should add to my list to trial? Hopefully I can hear many at Axpona?
I would also make the argument to an even larger degree against AV receivers. Why should customers need to buy new amplification when they wish to only upgrade the surround sound decoding or automatic EQ method?
Once they create separates that are cheaper then I'll do it. Sad thing is everytime they change HDMI you have to toss everything out. Nad is the only one that has it as a component. Sad thing is there processor is 5k. Not that I disagree with the quality it's just expensive. I have an arcam which honestly sounds amazing. It doesn't have a phono state and has analog out. Still it's powerful enough to run my focals just fine.
Since the power amplifier is literally the heart of your stereo system, once you get a really good power amp, you can literally upgrade everything else lol, unless of course you bought your high priced “end game” speakers first. 😉
I'm just curious about something. I was able to post a comment or two on another channel reviewing a network receiver, but when I tried to relate a negative experience I had with that reviewed item purchased from one of their mentioned sources (I got a used item sold as new), no matter how I phrased it or cut it down, even not mentioning the company, my comment was visible to me, but it didn't get posted. Is that the channel owner's doing or UA-cam?
You don’t have to spend 1 or 2 thousand dollars, that’s way too much for an integrated amplifier. You can get a decent integrated amplifier spending less than a thousand dollars. For example denon pma-600ne is a great choice!
I just choose stranded wires for my tweeter.. i spent about 1 dollar to change the solid core wires to stranded ones.. it made difference.. 😂 Higher frequency likes stranded wires* Instead of tubes i went with class-B (not under-biased jeez) amp for my woofer.( -0.7 to +1mV offset) ( I made the amp myself - douglass self's book helped a lot to reduce the offset from 8mv to under 1mV) a 15inch 300watt woofer from Ahuja(india) And a 8inch 40watt speaker for vocals ( class - B - again - this one is also not under biased jeez) And 1 tweeter for 3500-8000Hz And another tweeter for 8000Hz to 20KHz 24dB 4way active crossover.. no subs
The biggest problem w/ separates is that if the manufacturer designed the amp/ preamp to match. Going w/ separates of different manufacturer is a hit or miss match.
Separate components take place into your listening room if you have that ok but if you haven’t? If you want to work with dealers who knows their business, most of them who sell separate components will sell rather expensive gear. For young people separates can be a good start because they are more flexible than an old guy like me, because I don’t buy gear that I haven’t listened to. And for the streamer stuff you can always hook a separate streamer on a integrated amplifier. And then what about when you are into home theater and you want a very good stereo music sounding AV receiver, not so easy. I have an AV receiver 5.1 from Arcam for about 16 years and now I am only listening to stereo music even from Blu-ray Discs so with buying a more expensive AV receiver I got for the price of one. I can understand that people want to buy separate components but in my experience and my needs I stick with good integrated amps. Ludo, 63 years’
@@patfrederick7327 I do have separates. But same manufacturer. Vintage Marantz amp/ preamp , Adcom amp/preamp & 1 integrated tube amp.I was referring to different preamp w/ different manufacturer amp. They may not match well.
FM Tuner should never be incorporated and you have a Stereo receiver, why you should Buy a Integrated Amp. (and there not expensive) and you can buy FM Tuners Cheap, own 15 FM Tuners and most of them were $50-$100 each, some were a couple hundred Pioneer TX 9500 mkII and Sansui TU 717.
Yeah, no. Can't agree. Randy, you are getting away from the premise of cheapaudioman. There are a lot of great integrated amps from Emotiva, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Cambridge, NAD, Sony, etc. Integrated amps solve a lot of problems for music lovers. They are a simple solution for those of us who are tired of shopping for separate components. Technically speaking, there's just one power supply to covert to DC, signal pathways are much shorter (don't need all those external cables) and internal components are matched and shielded. The big chip makers provide proprietary designs at bulk prices to the big brands, hence why they don't disclose the DAC chip source. Big brands can work on smaller margins, so there's still room for retailers/ shops to earn a buck and be competitive. Yes, one can *almost* always build a better sounding system with separates, but it takes a lot of time, trial and error to buy/try/cry/sell, then start over. YT channels like yours are a big help, but then doesn't your business model rely on testing a lot of separates? (Just sayin'.) In the end, the consumer is still spending his/her/their bucks to sort out what works best for them.
When I upgraded the power cable on my can opener the difference was night and day. The cans now open with such musicality and holographic depth that it brings tears to my eyes.
Try a new charging cord for your phone. When its used as a source through a streamer and DAC to a cheap Chinese amp, you can’t hear any difference. Quite remarkable!
Forever chasing "ideal" separates can be even worse than chasing the ideal integrated amp because there are so many more separates to chase. Unfortunately, the only way to know whether you are moving up is often to actually buy the unit in question. That can get expensive since dealers also make their margins on separates as well as on integrateds. Most manufacturers don't sell direct.
EXACTLY! I’ve got no problem with separate components per se….but, it’s impossible to know what to pair, and why, and the money that can be spent trying to figure it out can get obscene. This conversation is almost entirely moot, given how subjective “better” is, and short of reading reviews, you really have no idea what to buy and pair with what, and why. Growing up in the 70’s, there was none of this, yet our music sounded great.
I agree that for most people an integrated amp is probably a better buy, less fuss and less risk in many ways. If you're very knowledgeable and particular about what you want, then separates my be a better way to go. I don't believe in generalizations as much as in identifying which use case is better for you. I'm on the fence right now myself as for which route to take 😂
Why? You can purchase a superb Emotive power amp for about $500 new, less refurbished. Remeber, the only controls are on and off. I have one and it is powerful and open. Depending on what you listen to, you might not need a full preamp. Do you listen to vinyl? If you don't, you can get get away with a passive preamp which will distort the sound the least-- the only control you need is your volume pot. I'll make an exception for an integrated tube amp-- just make sure it has a preamp out function. The once from China have been getting good reviews and are very affordable. Read reviews here on UA-cam.
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Great Video again! You might be interested maybe in German small audio company Abacus-Electronics. Minimalistic looks but a way of their own with audio engineering. From quiet affordable but great sounding till a step up in price. You can find some very good German reviews.
I thought you were gonna talk about monoblock amplifiers.
@P T Buying a separate sound processor is the way around that for having multi channel setups for home theater etc. just WAY more expensive and "intense" if you dont know what youre doing
@P T oh yeah, a separate processor is sometimes better for balanced connections and running higher power amps blah blah blah.... Thousands of dollars more for it and "accessories".
@P T arcam avr? that good? ill check price on that... nice heads up, thanks
ive had integrated amps that sounded better than my separates - ive had seperates that sounded better than my integrateds - it really depends on where u are at in your audiophile journey and where u are in your life - it changes like the seasons in the northeast - when i have tubes - i want solid state - when i have integrateds - i want separates - when i have separates i want integrateds - when i have class d - i want class a - there is no rhyme or reason to want i want at any given time
Spot on! The joy of Circle Logic at its best - too funny and can very much relate
I...feel ya...Bro....lol... !
I AGREE - A PROPERLY DESIGNED AMP WILL HAVE A POWER SUPPLY FULLY CAPABLE OF DELIVERING MORE THAN ENOUGH CLEAN POWER TO AT LEAST IT RATED WATTAGE -- WITH A KNOWN REPUTABLE AUDIO COMPANY THIS IS MOSTLY A NON ISSUE -- AS IS THE ISOLATION ASPECT -- AND SOME OF THE BETTER INT AMPS DO HAVE SEPARATE POWER SUPPLIES FOR EACH CHANNEL -- THEY'RE HIGH DOLLAR -- BUT THEY SOUND IT TOO -- LISTEN TO THE VIOLA LABS CHORALE IF YOU GET A CHANCE -- IT WAS END GAME FOR ME -- ALL I'LL EVER NEED
You might need NAD, I still have my integrated from 1999, however the left channel goes a little silent from time to time, it had the most perfect satisfyingly sound an audiophile could ever crave, but looking at new NAD they seem so far out, class D only, no more analogue, everything streaming, they seem to be straying away from their old philosophy, I might go with Vincent Audio, Rotel.
As an audiophile I want to have it all, even though I don’t need it.
I gave up after the first point. So integrated amps are "expensive" because dealers, markups etc. And that doesn't apply to separates??
Plus I'm yet to see any situation where an integrated amp costs more than an equivalent pre/power setup, so for those of us on a limited budget, integrated is often the best bang for buck.
Stand-alone amps are more versatile and sound better.
@@eddihaskell How are they more versatile? If anything, integrated are the most versatile amps you can buy.
@@Frankonero12 Well, for example, I wanted to upgrade my Emotiva amp with a Parasound Amp this year - both are attached to a pre-amp. I can use the same pre-amp, sell the Emotiva amp and them use my new Parasound power amp. It is componentized. That is what I mean.
@@eddihaskell Oh ok, selling one power amp to buy a diferent power amp isn't what i would call versatile.
@@Frankonero12 I see what you are saying. BTW an Integrated amp can make a good preamp if it has preamp out (I am using my very good Music Hall integrated amp for this function) so an integrated amp can be functional in this regard. I just like separates.
I have owned both receivers and integrated amps and loved both but I have been a separates guy for over 30 years. I had the Carver M500t power amp paired with an NAD preamp for most of those 30 years. I recently got the Schiit Freya+ preamp and I pair that with the Jeff Rowland 125 power amp. I'm a happy camper 🙂
You would be, if you had to put up with a NAD pre amp for all those years...
And I'll bet that Jeff Rowland power amp set you back a lot more than just about any integrated you could buy, which was one of my points. Even an entry level power amp, if there is such a thing.
@@ziqfriq the Rowland was the most expensive piece of audio gear I've purchased. It did not bother me because I had the money and wanted an amp of superior quality. At my age it will be the last amp I purchase. No regrets whatsoever.
I dug the video! Plus I always admire the Justice poster behind you. Anyhow, I have a video idea for you: the best value system builds at $1,000, $2,000, and $5,000. It would be fun to hear your picks and why you chose them.
Completely agree with your thesis here. Think of the power supplies, interconnects, and cables as your "system". You can then swap components in and out. Buy quality. Buy it once. When upgrading, consider the entire signal path. I've had my (integrated) amp for about 25 yrs. I'm looking at upgrading - there's been movement in power amplification technologies that make this worthwhile. But my speakers are perfectly fine for my (smallish brightish) living room. The issue for me now becomes that to upgrade to the pre and power amps I want is a $12K expense (I'm contemplating Holo Audio preamp and Schiit Audio Tyr monoblocks) - CRAZY!!! Maybe for now I contemplate the Schiit Audio Freya+ and either Burson Timekeeper3x GT or Schiit Vidar 2 monoblocks (the Aegirs would be great but by Dynaudio speakers are relatively insensitive 86dB and 4 Ohms...)
Well,it depends. I got a Schiit Ragnorak 2 (the just an amp version without a DAC or phono stage.) I spend half the year listening to the Raggy, and then the other half of the year I use it as a pre-amp with a Decware tube amp. Fun. And, the main reason I went that route is ease of use, space saving, etc. AND there is plenty of options to upgrade the digital front end or analog front end.
Nope. I will never give up my Sansui AU7900 integrated amp that powers my JBL 100t's. So many inputs and yes I stream through it and also use a Ifi Zen phone preamp through one of the tape inputs. Of course it is a 1975 vintage piece of gear that has been completely restored to new. Just a complete versatile amp. For me, perfect.
I have to agree with that model, after well over a hundred (maybe even 2-300) different amps/receivers etc., the Sansui au-7900 is in my top 10 favorites, if not higher on the list, maybe even cracks the top 5, it's been a few years but I'd have to hear it again. Also, that's an awesome set of speakers you have also, big lively fellas.
@@JukeboxAlley The speakers are the rare black lacquer finish. Most people have never seen a pair because the finish gave JBL problems and not very many were made.
@@airgunnersc9335 those are keepers, I've only saw one set for sale in the past with black piano finish, I believe it was only a special order option if I remember right, you never see them around.
@@airgunnersc9335 and they quit making them because it caused them problems, I would imagine some people beat them up and didnt take care of them was the most likely the problem, the black finish is tough to keep perfect that's for sure, that's interesting, just gained some knowledge I didn't know about them. So if you have a sharp set I'd say hang onto em for sure.
One thing to look for on integrateds or receivers, vintage or new is the Pre Amp Out / Power Amp In jumper found on many models. It is usually a metal U shaped metal bar. I call it the nail. Pull the nail and install just about any RCA cable known to man (even the cheap audio man). You will be amazed. I discovered this trick in the late 70's when I was in audio retail.
I really appreciate that you did a video on this, especially the breakdown and the clarity with which you explain everything.
Hey Randy, entertaining as always. I’m with you on the dedicated boxes route to best quality and the most I would ever want to see in a single box is the pre and power amp. Having said that, one of the cheapest ways to get into quality vinyl playback is with a vintage NAD integrated amp with built in phono stage.
Just to add a little reality in your cost comparisons, if a manufacturer chooses to sell direct, they don’t charge half the price of a dealer sold box. They may not have a dealer margin to pay but they do have a direct sales operation with shipping, free trials, returns etc to fund. Best case, they’re probably saving the consumer about fifteen percent. More to the point, unless you’re prepared to buy five amplifiers with a view to shipping four of them back, you’re never sure you picked the best one for your system.
Very correct point, a webshop also has costs
This is why Schiit needs to make an Audio Toaster, multiple analog I/O selector to make separates and integrated amps better.
I agree, separates are preferred. And of course cables make a difference. Probably less so than a power filter and linear power supplies for all your separates, but they definitely make a difference. Otherwise I would not have spent 800 bucks in total on my cables.
Heresy! You contrarian! Where are the touches and pitch forks? Great stuff.
I started my audiophile journey back in the 70's with a Marantz 2245 + JBL speakers + Dual turntable. I soon graduated to separates and quickly learned the costly lesson that all pre-amps are not created equal. LOL. I totally agree with you about separates, but I have returned to integrated for simplicity's sake (TA1).
Also, I bought a power conditioner purely for device protection from dirty power/spikes ($300+). I was completely surprised when I plugged my WiiM Mini and J2 DAC into it and turned them on.
The sound improvement was very noticeable and totally unexpected but thoroughly loved. I guess this would be in the neighborhood of your power cord statements.
Keep up the good work Randy, your videos are very much appreciated.
Separates will always cost you more money, but I do give you better variety for upgrading. But if you're someone who's not going to be upgrading integrated do make a great choice space wise. You are always need more Rackspace that's a bigger more expensive rack or stand. Before I saw this video had already purchased an integrated, but I bought a integrated without a DAC or photo stage and went with separates for these devices, which still gives me a decent upgrade route. If you're someone who doesn't plan upgrade much integrated can make a lot of sense. Be sure to audition your equipment first before you buy, that way you get the sound you like.
This about sums it up, for convenience go receiver/integrated on a simpler setup and it'll be just fine, but if you like trying different flavors of amps and extra tuning options also added gain and filtering, more flexibility and fun if you like to change things out a lot, then that system for critical listening and interchanging components etc. then separates will pretty well always win that case.
I can hear if I am using wire from the 70s. You probably think that’s obvious but I can only discover it by changing to new wires.
(I never know how I’ve treated my car until I change the oil).
I was a sound technician around 15 years.
(By the way I agree with everything you are saying along with a caveat).
You would be surprised what you can get away with unless they are listening for it.
A quote from beyond my recollection. “You won’t hear it if you aren’t listening for it”.
That’s what sound professionals learn in training.
I just discovered your channel today. I like it.
I just watched this how did I miss it. Great video and spot on. All of my systems are separates with the exception of my AV movie system which still has a separate amp running some of its many channels. I will argue separates are best any day. Systems : Yamaha, McIntosh, Rotel and soon Emotiva. AV Marantz
Hey Randy, great video. I got started with an SVS Soundbase. It has given me great sound, and I've had a ton of holy crap moments when listening to familiar music. That being said, within about a year, it became very apparent to me how limited this device is. It was super user friendly as a beginner, so it allowed me to have a non intimidating way into the audiophile community. However, I'm already on a quest for a separates based system, and so, as you've mentioned, will end up spending more money in the long run. Integrated amps definitely seem to have their place, but if you get the bug, they don't seem like a likely endpoint.
Not sure how separates could be cheaper than an integrated ? More flexibility yes but dollar to dollar the integrated will offer better value and sound imho. I do agree buy one with no dac or phono , pre-outs are handy for a sub.
I'm confused - how does the first argument on costs not also apply to separates? If a DAC retails for 500, wouldn't that 'actually' be a 250-worth DAC? (following the 2000-1000 logic for the integrated)
I bought a Yamaha AS3200 integrated amplifier and after a year and a half it sounds better than most separates in the same price range. It’s built like a tank and the sound (on certain recordings) has such wide sound coming from multiple feet on each side of my speakers that I keep looking three feet past them expecting to see speakers coming from there. Depth is easily 5 feet deep and the sound is amazing. It has pre amp outputs and I run two subs. Integrated is a good choice.
You are totally right! If you are an audiophile, then you already know separates work best. What company is going to give you a discreet path from a class-A balanced dac to a class-A balanced preamp to a class-A amp? Not to mention the wonderful cables to play with in-between... I feel most integrated amps are for a different kind of person. Not an audiophile person, just a listener on a budget that doesn't care about all the instruments gabled together. Just my observation...
Used AVRs are the next trend. Consider the value for 2 channel setups IF JUST GETTING STARTED** Amp, Dac, EQ, and just stream from your smart tv through hdmi or optical. Easy to uppgrade to 5.1, or an external dac if need be- bam you're 90% of the way there for a couple hundred bucks
My parent's old Denon was impossibly hard to ever use. Now it's just used as a power amplifier with the volume left at about 3. Everything connected to it is doing the rest/acting as various preamp(s). Thankfully bypassing all the junk and using it as just an amplifier was fairly easy.
I have an integrated amp Technics from the 80s and cannot find a better sound signature, yet. I have tried many other amps/preamps, but its direct non-intrusive SS approach is what I like, you can color it with your DAC, tubes, different source devices, etc. Plus the style is so cool 🤩
Nice. What model are you using? Thanks
@@jd5787 It's a SU-Z600 - I have it paired with a Schiit Freya+ preamp and Heresys III
I am using my 7 year old excellent Music Hall Intergrated Amp (which, at 50 watts per channel, is simply not powerful enough for my new 500 square foot main listening room) as a pre-amp with a pre-amp output. It had a great phono stage but I decided to get rid of my vinyl collection a few years ago, It sounds great as a pre for my Emotiva 100 watt per channel power amp (which is great for a budget buy). I now only listen to my CD collection and Alexa on occasion--- and it sounds great.
Totally agree! Amps can last for a while, but particularly DACs get new features every other week. With phono stage, either you are not into vinyl, so threw away some cash, or you are into vinyl, and then are stuck with a MM-only phono stage. MC phono stage on integrated is pretty rare, and serious vinyl folks will sooner or later go the MC-route. One the few Pre-Power-integrated ones I would consider is the PassLabs INT25. And yes, I made the integrated mistake (Rotel RA1572), but now am all separate.
High-output MC cartridge. I have an Adcom crosscoil VDH, and it runs fine in the MM phono stage of my Onkyo A-9555.
Well, you just described the Musical Fidelity M2si! No DAC, no Phono, with output. 🤙🏻
And, yes, cables DO make difference. Specifically power cables.
How does a wiring to a receptacle with 12/2 mater.. pls explain.. tks jon
Same years of experience here. My experience. There a good and bad pre and poweramps. Some pre and poweramps sound less then a good integrated. The preamp output was never that great from the integrated amps I have used. Better then get a good pre amp also. Powercables etc do make (a lot) of difference agree on that one👌
hey - who cut the cheese - any amp with speaker A and speaker B with adequate current has the secret sauce so you can set up two sets of your favorite speakers side by side and run them how you choose to ........ ha ha
While I agree with you overall, a well chosen integrated amp or even receiver (CA AXR100) has the flexibility to feed external sources in. Also, being someone who will drive themselves bananas reading/reviewing my options, the 'one and done' approach is both a stress reliever and gets me back to listening instead of researching. Cheers
Preamps are too expensive for me. The only options I see are using a Topping e30 in preamp mode ($150) or a Emotiva PT1 ($499) both of which have remotes. Then need to speed $500 - $1000 for a stereo power amp. Both of the Topping and Emotiva have USB which does no good for a family room set up and only 1 optical and 1 coax. I think I made right decision with Yamaha and Cambridge Stereo integrateds for my two set ups.
I had an Akai integrated for decades. It had wire bridges on the back to connect the pre to power. I didn't use it after the first five years of owning it, but kept it because if either pre or power seperates had to go for surgery I could use the part of the Akai that could step in for the one at the repair shop.
That's another reason, if part of your integrated fails, the whole thing will be gone for a while. With seperates, if the dac goes you still have the rest of the gear and can work around that. And as soon as your warranty is over and a power amp fails on an integrated.... Buying seperates saves you from single point of failure doom scenarios
Dude I just found your channel and couldn't hit that Sub. button fast enough ....Good stuff
My amplifier is class D Marantz Melody X. DAC is not used in the analog stage. The chips inside are TAS5142 and TAS5558. The only dac used is for the TV sound connected via Toslink cable. Class D amps are getting better each day.
I'd be very interested in hearing your recommendations for cheap pre-amp and power amp combinations. My 35 year old integrated has just given up the ghost, so I'm on the hunt and looking for ideas.
I didn't do separate components because i wanted something minimalistic that was capable of decent surround. I went with the marantz mm7055. It does everything i need plus some. Sounds good when watching movies and sounds good when listening to lossless audio.
Many of the people commenting did not understand the point of this video.
The point is not that integrated amplifiers are worse, but that they offer less flexibility and less value for money.
For a fraction of the price, you can build a system that will be upgradeable and offer excellent sound quality. If you can afford to pay over $1000 for an integrated amp, go for it, if not, it's a good idea, if you have a more limited budget, buying the separate components will allow you to save money and upgrade your system without having to pay a lot of money each time.
digital sources: computers, Roku TV
phono-preamps: TC760LC, Pro-Ject Phono Box S2, fed by .... many cartridges!
preamps: 3 each DIY Sanyo LC75342 chipset in aluminium cases (note the proper spelling of aluminium!), 4 inputs (analogue RCA), bass/treble control, remote
amps:
Dayton Audio APA150 (class A/B, Parts Express)
Dayton Audio APA102BT (class D)
vintage Superscope R-310 receiver
speakers: Dayton Audio B652, Jamo C4, 3inch Tang Band full range in small bass-reflex boxes
As always, an interesting and thoughtful perspective you present. Great thoughts and a fun video. Thanks! I've been under the belief that separates would always have a higher cost, not thinking about perceivable to the ear "disadvantages" that could be present with "heavily" integrated amps. I can see your point about being difficult to go backwards if a piece of hardware has too many bells and whistles that could bring noise into the mix and cannot be circumnavigated easily to improve the output. A few years back I got a reconditioned Parasound Integrated amp (it has a Wolfson Dac) at a good price. It's got enough juice to run power hungry stand mounts. But its "integration" is just the DAC (I pay no attention to the phono outputs since I don't do vinyl.) Simple in its integration I believe, may be why it sounds very decent. I can of course input from an "improved" DAC and it's nice to have that option (as a "cheap" audio dude, I am using a Chrome Audio puck (remember those) outputting digitally and when it dies, I'll be on the hunt for a decent streamer / DAC (thinking and hoping I can find an integrated unit that is decent, but doesn't break the bank). Or should I only go with separates for a streamer and DAC (that's an improvement over my DAC in the Parasound)? Grrrr, the separates vs. integrated debate/decision making conundrum strikes again! Curses you CAM !!
Dang skippy, Randy! I started with a Denon and then an Onkyo. Both of them were baseline AVR's and I spent probably about $300 on each of them. I learned a lot with them, but I mainly learned that I was trapped inside of the metal box. Now I'm running Schiit Freya, Modius, Mani 2, BlueSound Node, and an Anthem MCA 225 G2 amp. I still use the Onkyo to control the HDMI mess like the TV and Roku, but those duties will be going to Emotiva soon enough. It's a whole different world.
For many years I had Pre / Power amplifiers but now I own an intergrated amplifier. All sounds good 👍
There are those who think some of the best amps on the market are Hegel integrated. But you could prolly get a decent used car for what they cost. I'm a separates guy. I love my Mapletree Ultra 4SE tube pre. It makes any amp I use sound better. I also have a Schiit Saga and while it might actually be a bit more transparent, lacks the magic. Plus I like that the Mapletree has gain. The Saga wins on taking up less space though, and looks great w/ my Bifrost2, MacMini and Audiolab 6000 CDT, all in the matte aluminum finish.
If I was in the market for new hifi gear I would go separates all the way. Considering that if you get an integrated and a board or chip even a capacitor craps out more than likely it cannot be serviced by someone who fixes electronics because the company won't give out the schematics, sell you the part or he will just refuse for those reasons. They usually crap out right as the warranty ends so the manufacture either quotes you a crazy price to repair or you have to buy a new one. I went vintage receiver because I like terrestrial radio (my SX-828 has ridiculous reception) and they are serviceable with enough line level inputs for a cd player, streamer (wiim pro) and record player. I wouldn't recommend that path for someone new to this hobby or has budget constraints, separates are the way to go. Good stuff Randy!!
But if something craps out on a separate (leaving both components useless) doesn't it still have to be repaired or replaced? or am I missing something?
@@tikilord66 Separates mean that the amp, pre amp, dac etc are all individual and integrated amp has all of those in one device. So you just replace the defective individual component so instead of having to replace the entire integrated amp.
I'm over here thinking great now I need a dac then I remember I listen to records. Saved myself some money lol
Good reason but the video began to sound like a commercial for Emotiva.
good. I love emotiva stuff. and actually I mentioned schiit preamps more than emotiva as far as preamps.
Having been in the "business" of audio, markup on the components generally is 60% to retail. Manufacturer to wholesale is generally 20%. And all that is variable depending on volume, incentives. Buy from a larger dealer as they'll have more built in "wiggle" room on price. If you want to bypass a dealers showroom, specific expertise and ability to showcase much gear, then experiment with the internet and direct buying.
Lots of old school audiophile knowledge in this video that time has proven to be true.
I jam with tha olduns these new one pretty much suck just a little bit.. tks.. jon
The precious metals of your main amp and speakers are what is necessary to deliver. Only the head needs to change to get things to analog for our ears.
The mark up on separates tend to be the same as on an integrated amp. And the more esoteric the equipment, usually the higher the markup.
I have the Yamaha stereo on the thumbnail. It's a 100 watt per Chanel , all ANALOG inputs.
It's a no nonsense very very good stereo receiver. I say this for several reasons.
1. PRICE, less Than $200.
2. YAMAHA quality.
3. AMPLIFIER POWER.
4. CLASS A-B.- AMPLIFIER.
take the lid of without being plugged in. Just take a look at the way it's made. I have an old 1970s Teac record player or LP.
my my my, hooked up to my favorit JBL STUDIO 530s.
And to my JAMO STUDIO2, 93s.
Oh boy. Absolutely sonic bliss.!!
The midrange and highs are totally NUTS and of the human comprehension of 20Hz. / 20,000Klz.
Now I know what everyone says about sound stage and imaging.
Once you have your choice of speakers and audio equipment hooked up. Play around with the hight and spacing, it's free to do so.
Once you have your spacing and height all figured out.
Play the record of Pink Floyd, Dark side of the Moon. As loud as possible with out distortion. Which is about 1 or 2 O'clock on the volume scale of 1 to 10.
Sit back and enjoy.
I hooked up my 1970s very old
ADC Spectrum Analizer / Equilizer.
Some say don't do it.
But I keep an open mind about things according to the way it was recorded.
Or if it's a CD, SACD, or LP.
Most of the time I don't use it.
When don't use it I sometimes flip the, ( DIRECT AUDIO ), Button on my Yamaha rec. Amp.
I will keep the bass set at about the 1 O'clock position and the treble set about the same.
And just enjoy my speakers and the way the recording is.
It's a wounder full thing.
And should not cost a fortune to do so. I got my JBLs for $299 and the Jamos for 199.
Bear in mind when both these speakers came out they were triple that cost.
Integrated amplifiers can still be excellent, and I’ve just bought one! But, it is a bare bones dual mono analogue integrated with pre outputs. My phono stage is separate, as is my DAC and the streamer that feeds the DAC. I have freedom to change components as times change and equipment evolves.
Schiit Ragnarok has interchangeable modules and pre amp outs.
Comes down to 2 simple things,$$$$ and space. Separates are nice but integrated amps tend to give me what I need.
Integrated is what I am considering because my space has one outlet (2 plug spaces). I don't think I can accommodate a bunch of separates. I already have integrated, phono, and subwoofer to share a single plug. Not optimal at all, I know. Though, I haven't bought any of this yet so I am still figuring it all out.
Integrated amplifiers are a good way for companies to do a one chassis cheap product. However, that is not always the case. I have two complete systems, both two channel, in different rooms one is all separates (Krell) the other has an integrated amp as it's heart (Denon PMA-2000IVR). Each system performs exceptionally well. That Denon is a monster. So versatile. A power house. The Krell Separates are, well, Krell monsters from The Forbidden Planet. The Denon is such a perfect example of what can be accomplished when designing an integrated amplifier. The PMA-2000 series is very popular in Japan for a reason: works well in smaller living spaces, have a very good phono stage and high build quality. They are not cheap new or used and the America market version's rarely come up for sale. You're thoughts don't have any impact on these Japanese market integrated amps. Just like the big recievers of the 1970s they are very well made and are sought after.
BTW--love you're show. Sarcasm is good for the soul.
I guess you're talking about the budget sector here, in which case I'm inclined to agree. Move upscale, however, and it's a very different story, with integrated options by manufacturers like Hegel, Accuphase and Primaluna that certainly compete with separate offerings in the same price class.
Could we get more gain on your vocals in future videos? Any time the commercials cut in they’re much louder; it’s a real bummer on headphones.
Love your channel, my system has never sounded better!
I HAD SEPARATES FOR YEARS -- ONCE I GOT A TRULY GOOD INT -- I NEVER WENT BACK -- NOW THE BIG REASON IS SIMPLY THE SPACE SAVING ASPECT OF IT -- MUCH EASIER TO DEAL WITH -- GOT A BRAND NEW MODWRIGHT NOW & AM TOTALLY SATISFIED
Really appreciated your video. Wish I had started with separates. Thank you.
When making my decision on components, a lot of these points are why I ended up going with an analog integrate amp. All of the digital sources will need to upgraded every time there is a major shift in the markets. Agree with the premise of the video though. All-in-one's convenience is also it's greatest downside. You basically have to always start over.
Come on, good integrated amps have great amp sections, plenty of inputs for external devices, and great flexibility. If you don't have those things, you bought a cheap integrated
Miss my Sansui AU7900. I bought it new and used it for many years until multiple channel sound came out. Regret getting rid of it now.
How are dealers not asking similar margins on separates? That point just doesn't make any sense.
The video actually explains why we need Integrated Amplifier.
The yamaha as1200 sitting in my cart disagrees with you
So I am still a bit of a lucky guy.
Have an integrated amp without dac or phono.
Grtz Phil
Integrated amps are great and usually sound way better than a receiver. Many receivers have a ton of features that most people simply don't use or need.
I really don't think dealers offer a service anymore. there very few and far in between where you can go and a/b a component or speaker like in old times. they all should sell straight to consumer with a window of return and factor in those costs instead.
The upgraded power cables alone would be more expensive than a decent integrated amplifier
You can say power cables make a difference, and maybe they do up to a point. Power supply is only as good as the power at the wall outlet. The cables your house is wired with really is not great and it is definitely not shielded and will pickup all the interference out there. If you have really cheap, thin power cords, then an upgrade may make a difference, that's why I said, up to a point they may make a difference. Separate power supplies, however, do make a difference as it is able to supply power needed for the particular module, rather than being an all in one.
Hegel H390 would like to have a chat. Also, my family allows 1 box for the boom boom music.
I have a nad 316 bee integrated amp I bought retail for 330 dollars. I don’t know where people are getting off on thinking it’s a fantastic component including the reviews. It’s not a bad piece of equipment don’t get me wrong but when comparing it to older Yamaha receiver my brother gave me I like the Yamaha. All a integrated amp is, is receiver without the tuner. You get what you pay for. As for separates I have a vintage Adcom Gfa 535 power amp and also a Rotel 60 watt power amp. Definitely cleaner sound maybe it’s not completely night and day but definitely a difference in the sound quality. I also read that in this hobby every thing is in increments and a price point. Example a 300 dollar amp hooked up to a 2000 dollar pair of speakers won’t be good sound. Etc
Hi cheap audio man. I was watching your review on the totem a11 tribute. Do you have any experience with the overrated nad 316 bee integrated amp
I’m sorry think you missed the mark on this video for most people an integrated amps work well love my emotiva ta1 best purchase I made
Still love you brother and will continue to subscribe and watch your live streams just disagree with this video have a great day 😊
thanks, man. I think it's a great integrated. I just like to have separates and wanted to have folks think about things. the vast majority of products sold are integrated. I wanted to throw a grenade out there. and I mention the ta1 and 2 in the video about being good because of their upgrade path
Rotel receivers and integrated amps have preamp outputs... They seem to have a great upgrade path.
Funny! Ya, I used to drink the better wires better sound KoolAide. Wrapping the speaker cables around your head is supposed to help you hear the wires better.
Have decided to divorce my music from my Denon surround receiver. Thru all the CAM vids I have easily decided upon all the separates I would like. Except for the pre amp. List so far is: Parasound P6,
Emotiva PT2,
Musical Fidelity M6S,
PS Audio Stellar GainCell,
Marantz NR1200 as Pre, Acoustic Invader,
Reisong Q6, or
Schiit Freya+. While low pass filter and balanced outs would be nice, sound will decide. Any I should add to my list to trial? Hopefully I can hear many at Axpona?
I just did. Though it also has FM so I guess it’s a receiver.
I'm interested in your opinion on the Philips DFA 1000 (aka Marantz PM 95)
I would also make the argument to an even larger degree against AV receivers. Why should customers need to buy new amplification when they wish to only upgrade the surround sound decoding or automatic EQ method?
Once they create separates that are cheaper then I'll do it. Sad thing is everytime they change HDMI you have to toss everything out. Nad is the only one that has it as a component. Sad thing is there processor is 5k.
Not that I disagree with the quality it's just expensive. I have an arcam which honestly sounds amazing. It doesn't have a phono state and has analog out. Still it's powerful enough to run my focals just fine.
Just started, already pissed🤣🤣
What did you get? :P
@@CelticFrost031 I left a comment somewhere else and it managed to migrate here - just checked and it is there. Have no Idea how this happened
Me & my Denon are laughing at you 😂
want to upgrade my 1700bt but it has no subwoofer port want to put T5 but dont know how I thought a 2.1 amplifier will help me connect the 2.
“You have no power.” Someone had the guts to say it, finally. Dude, I may not share your love of Nirvana, but I sure bow before your courage.
Since the power amplifier is literally the heart of your stereo system, once you get a really good power amp, you can literally upgrade everything else lol, unless of course you bought your high priced “end game” speakers first. 😉
I'm just curious about something. I was able to post a comment or two on another channel reviewing a network receiver, but when I tried to relate a negative experience I had with that reviewed item purchased from one of their mentioned sources (I got a used item sold as new), no matter how I phrased it or cut it down, even not mentioning the company, my comment was visible to me, but it didn't get posted. Is that the channel owner's doing or UA-cam?
You don’t have to spend 1 or 2 thousand dollars, that’s way too much for an integrated amplifier. You can get a decent integrated amplifier spending less than a thousand dollars. For example denon pma-600ne is a great choice!
I just choose stranded wires for my tweeter.. i spent about 1 dollar to change the solid core wires to stranded ones.. it made difference.. 😂
Higher frequency likes stranded wires*
Instead of tubes i went with class-B (not under-biased jeez) amp for my woofer.( -0.7 to +1mV offset) ( I made the amp myself - douglass self's book helped a lot to reduce the offset from 8mv to under 1mV) a 15inch 300watt woofer from Ahuja(india)
And a 8inch 40watt speaker for vocals ( class - B - again - this one is also not under biased jeez)
And 1 tweeter for 3500-8000Hz
And another tweeter for 8000Hz to 20KHz
24dB 4way active crossover.. no subs
*Extremely well argued point.*
Makes sense to me. 15+ years ago, separates were the norm.
Thanks
The biggest problem w/ separates is that if the manufacturer designed the amp/ preamp to match. Going w/ separates of different manufacturer is a hit or miss match.
Separate components take place into your listening room if you have that ok but if you haven’t? If you want to work with dealers who knows their business, most of them who sell separate components will sell rather expensive gear. For young people separates can be a good start because they are more flexible than an old guy like me, because I don’t buy gear that I haven’t listened to. And for the streamer stuff you can always hook a separate streamer on a integrated amplifier. And then what about when you are into home theater and you want a very good stereo music sounding AV receiver, not so easy. I have an AV receiver 5.1 from Arcam for about 16 years and now I am only listening to stereo music even from Blu-ray Discs so with buying a more expensive AV receiver I got for the price of one. I can understand that people want to buy separate components but in my experience and my needs I stick with good integrated amps.
Ludo, 63 years’
@@patfrederick7327 I do have separates. But same manufacturer. Vintage Marantz amp/ preamp , Adcom amp/preamp & 1 integrated tube amp.I was referring to different preamp w/ different manufacturer amp. They may not match well.
What about the NAD 3020 / 3030?
FM Tuner should never be incorporated and you have a Stereo receiver, why you should Buy a Integrated Amp. (and there not expensive) and you can buy FM Tuners Cheap, own 15 FM Tuners and most of them were $50-$100 each, some were a couple hundred Pioneer TX 9500 mkII and Sansui TU 717.
Integrated amp bad, got it. My next purchase, an integrated amp. Seriously.
Yeah, no. Can't agree. Randy, you are getting away from the premise of cheapaudioman. There are a lot of great integrated amps from Emotiva, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Cambridge, NAD, Sony, etc. Integrated amps solve a lot of problems for music lovers. They are a simple solution for those of us who are tired of shopping for separate components. Technically speaking, there's just one power supply to covert to DC, signal pathways are much shorter (don't need all those external cables) and internal components are matched and shielded. The big chip makers provide proprietary designs at bulk prices to the big brands, hence why they don't disclose the DAC chip source. Big brands can work on smaller margins, so there's still room for retailers/ shops to earn a buck and be competitive. Yes, one can *almost* always build a better sounding system with separates, but it takes a lot of time, trial and error to buy/try/cry/sell, then start over. YT channels like yours are a big help, but then doesn't your business model rely on testing a lot of separates? (Just sayin'.) In the end, the consumer is still spending his/her/their bucks to sort out what works best for them.
When I upgraded the power cable on my can opener the difference was night and day. The cans now open with such musicality and holographic depth that it brings tears to my eyes.
Those tears can join the tears you shed when you paid for the power cable too!
Thats amazing, do you regulary hear music in everything?
Try a new charging cord for your phone.
When its used as a source through a streamer and DAC to a cheap Chinese amp, you can’t hear any difference.
Quite remarkable!
and then you got clean power and good gear and realized you ain't funny no more .......
Hey now. When I upgraded my power cable on my microwave it made Korn. So I’m pretty happy about that
Forever chasing "ideal" separates can be even worse than chasing the ideal integrated amp because there are so many more separates to chase. Unfortunately, the only way to know whether you are moving up is often to actually buy the unit in question. That can get expensive since dealers also make their margins on separates as well as on integrateds. Most manufacturers don't sell direct.
EXACTLY! I’ve got no problem with separate components per se….but, it’s impossible to know what to pair, and why, and the money that can be spent trying to figure it out can get obscene. This conversation is almost entirely moot, given how subjective “better” is, and short of reading reviews, you really have no idea what to buy and pair with what, and why. Growing up in the 70’s, there was none of this, yet our music sounded great.
I agree that for most people an integrated amp is probably a better buy, less fuss and less risk in many ways. If you're very knowledgeable and particular about what you want, then separates my be a better way to go. I don't believe in generalizations as much as in identifying which use case is better for you. I'm on the fence right now myself as for which route to take 😂
Some people LOVE chasing audio "perfection". If you are happy with your system, that is all that matters.
Yeah, what was said about dealer margins and manufacturer margins applies equally to separates, so that argument is irrelevant.
Why? You can purchase a superb Emotive power amp for about $500 new, less refurbished. Remeber, the only controls are on and off. I have one and it is powerful and open. Depending on what you listen to, you might not need a full preamp. Do you listen to vinyl? If you don't, you can get get away with a passive preamp which will distort the sound the least-- the only control you need is your volume pot. I'll make an exception for an integrated tube amp-- just make sure it has a preamp out function. The once from China have been getting good reviews and are very affordable. Read reviews here on UA-cam.