I have addressed most of the questions everyone has on this device here: ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx1bsDIYjUul5EtYCyt37YhwPX7s4RNho3 Please refer to it as there are many misconceptions about how this device works. I will do a video on it soon.
@@OldGuyHifi If the difference is audible, it should show up on a graph. Can you show us how the FR and/or impulse response changes by bypassing the clock?
@@OldGuyHifiI think the question is: If we have a DAC (Geshelli J2) with a USB input does it do the same thing as this device? It is my understanding that the USB signal gets the “timing done” at the end of the chain (aka in the DAC) where optical sends timing information along with the signal…but so could be 100% wrong and need all the help I can get to reduce jitter etc. Thank!!
@@AbsoluteTU Yes the DAC can correct for some, but not all timing and jitter issues. In the design of all products compromises need to be made for cost vs performance considerations. In this instance it is not the DAC where the issue lies. It is the very noisy, il-timed stream coming from the WiiM that is the real issue. The SMSL unit kind of "pre-cleans" the stream so the DAC's oscillator clocks can be more accurate. My wife rinses off all of the dishes going into the dishwasher so it can do a better job of cleaning the dishes. The SMAL PO 100 is the rinse before the wash gizmo. Does that make sense? Thx.
Adding to the discussion as a long time audiophile and electrical engineer: Jitter has been a concern for decades. The WIIM Ultra is a very good product. I'd like to suggest that WIIM develop and release a high quality streaming product that includes a better clock stage along with a very good internal DAC and upgraded power supply. Unnecessary features such as the mediocre phono preamp could be eliminated as part of a new, reasonably-priced product for audiophiles. Do a few things well instead of being a 'jack of all trades.'
I decided to try the PO100 Pro "hack" and I can not believe I am saying this but what a major improvement from just coming out of the Ultra optically into a Cambridge Dac Magic 200 into a Marantz 2240 then out toa pair of Dynaco A25's It is amazing how it sounds to me like the highs have "opened up" even on this 90% vintage system. Best $70 I spent this holiday season.
Could you please show these pieces when they are actually connected to each other (instead of just verbally describing it)? This really would make what you're talking about so much easier to understand for us relative newbies. Tia!
@petec572 He's connecting the streamer to this box via USB, then using coax or optical to the DAC. This is so he can use the clock in the box and not the streamer. However, this is completely pointless if your DAC has USB in. Just use that, and you'll use the DAC's clock. Essentially, this is a hack that's not needed for most people.
@@cunawaritI took the $60 gamble, I’ll report back and we’ll see if your comment is true. Maybe it comes down to if the smsl clock is better than whatever external dac you’re using
@@bespey it's not too bad a gamble if you have a console to use it with. It's a neat little box for its intended use, and it will not make things worse anyway 😁
Thanks again Randy, you started me back on my audiophile journey 3 years ago with the Wiim pro plus and now moved on the the Wiim Ultra. Just added a PO100 Pro that I was able to get through AliExpress. Everything you said and more is true. I’m going from the Ultra to the PO100 with the usb cable that came with it. And then optical out of the PO100 to optical in to my Geshelli J3 Dac with Sparkos 2590 discrete opamps. Couldn’t be happier. The improvement with the PO100 was even greater than when I upgraded the Geshelli opamps. It’s a big SQ improvement in my system which is impossible not the hear…
@ unfortunately I ordered my J3 without USB because I thought it mostly applied for use with computers which I don’t plan to do. Just got an upgraded usb cable which to me sounds about the same as the cheap one the PO100 came with😳. I’m expecting an AQ coax cable tomorrow which is supposed to be better than USB.
@@gurratell7326 NOT TRUE, so if I were you I'd be real careful what you wrongly write there gurratell as gut ta un real as your unfounded guttural feelings may be seen to be here could be read as being libel & thus you may be held liable.
Good Lord! It's not a 'hack' if it's introducing a redundant device into the chain! In 99.99993% of use cases, if you have a WiiM Ultra and already use an external DAC with a USB input, if it employs asynchronous USB transfer (like the overwhelming majority of modern DACs do), the DAC’s internal clock governs the audio data timing, effectively mitigating any incoming jitter. Adding an external reclocker to the chain would be redundant, as the DAC already manages reclocking. It doesn't matter how inexpensive a device is, it's redundant and a waste of time and/or money. Stop the madness!
Couldn't agree more. You're just offloading clock duty to another rather inexpensive device (the SMSL) and trusting that it will do a better job than the wiim. Just skip this component and go straight into a well-regarded USB DAC, which will undoubtedly mitigate any clock issues inherent with the wiim.
Your point may be technically true and logical, and Randy allows for this in his video (his skepticism was like yours...until he heard the difference with his particular set-up, clearly astonishing him). I don't find his surprising experience, and astonishment, madness; I find it intriguing and compelling. And it fills my soul with happiness that someone is open enough to have their opinion changed in such a positive, enthusiastic, chid-like way. We could all learn from his humility.
@@danielwalsh8168 I don’t think anyone attacked Randy personally. My main concern is that this channel has built its reputation as a reliable resource for affordable Hi-Fi, and it truly excels in helping viewers understand Randy’s take on new, budget-friendly products. Thanks to this channel, I discovered brands like Aiyima and Fosi, which have been great additions to my setup. In this way, the channel has set itself apart from others that promote “snake oil” products, which can feel more like scams than genuine recommendations. It’s understandable, then, that viewers might feel disappointed seeing a beloved channel drift into “snake oil” territory. The straightforward, honest reviews of quality, affordable gear are what make this channel shine.
I love these little tidbits of sonic wisdom. I asked Geshelli if they could tweak their preamp to... they said not... but the DayZee is in the oven so this smsl doohicky will be very welcome! Thanks!
Hi Randy, Could the sound improvement be because a different external DAC was used? When using the SMSL, does it disable the Wiim's equalizer and volume control?
@@soumyajitdeb3943 You're correct, PLUS reclocking the spdif connections requires a cache. There is probably going to be some audio lag when playing/streaming music videos or movies. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
When looking at this and the other model linked it seems like the only difference between this and similar products is they both have an XMOS chip. Even from SMSL's description it's really meant for laptops and possibly game consoles. I could see where this might help on a laptop, where the output is noisy and the clock isn't tuned for audio because that's not it's primary purpose. This would mean if there is an improvement then the USB output on the WiiM is the issue. One of the reviews even said he had zero issues when listening to his WiiM streamer on his DAC but when he switched over to his laptop, sound quality was worse and this device did improve audio quality. That I could see as potentially being true At the end of the day any decent quality DAC is going to do a better job of any relocking that's needed. I know in a DAC the relocking used starts to matter more when you get into 2, 4 or even 8 DAC chips as the master clock has to keep the DAC's in sync.
So the real question is, does the geshelli have a crap clock? Use the usb in the J2S because since it’s carried over usb, it will be forced to use the DACs internal clock to reclocke the data. This isn’t just for things like the SMSL. Whenever you use usb the device you are sending to will clock the data.
I’ve been using this with my mojo2 Dac for quite a while now, it’s great. I use it in both my hifi and headphone setup to turn all usb (also works with lightning otg cables) signals I connect into optical instead. It sounds great! It improves audio from any laptop, phone or tablet I’ve used with mojo2. All the best!
What?!! You have a Rob Watts-designed FPGA DAC with a USB input, yet you’re taking a perfect, asynchronous USB signal only to put it through a cheap xmos clock, converting your already asynchronous signal to Coax or optical and taking the clocking capabilities of the mojo2 away??? This is both lunacy and hilarious.
@@britishskiing I’m still using the full clocking capability’s of the Mojo2. All the Chord DACs FPGAs use Digital Phase Locked Loops. It measures the input and then discards the source clock creating its own working clock that’s locked to the local master clock (even over Toslink). This is said to eliminate jitter. When clocking/jitter isn’t an issue, the benefits of Toslink over USB become apparent. Including much less noise transmitted from the power supply, with no random RF interference or noise floor modulation. This means a very low and stable noise floor, greater instrument clarity and separation, as well as stable instrument timbre and reduced artificial sharpness and brightness. All making for a clearer smoother, more refined and much less fatiguing sound. I’ve tested it for myself with my own gear and I’ve blind tested my friends/family. Don’t take my word for it though, Rob Watts states it publicly. Mojo2s optical implementation is very well done. Rob Watts has stated publicly that in his opinion Toslink surpasses USB for audio quality, even when only using USB for signal with separate high quality power supply. Obviously USB can handle more raw data with DSD, but both the PO100PRO and Mojo2 output 24bit 192khz through Toslink. Robb Watts has also stated (many times) that he feels DSD is inferior to PCM because of noise etc. When taking the DACs design, the opinions of its designer and the hardware implementation into account, it actually makes sense to use the optical instead of USB with the Mojo2 when possible. You should check out the 2024 Rob Watts CanJam seminar where he states all of this himself, and then do some of your own research and testing with your own Chord equipment. There are exceptions to every rule, and graphs can’t tell you the entire story. You just have to experiment with what sounds the best with the gear you have! All the best!
@@aj8ky The USB on my Holo Cyan 2 has galvanic isolation! All the benefits of Toslink and all the benefits of USB data. Weirdly only the USB is isolated but that’s why the USB implementation on the Cyan 2 is unmatched by any other DAC, including Chord. Btw, I am a Chord fanboy and I know Rob knows his stuff, but he is referring to an optical source to optical Chord DAC. Digital data conversion is never a good thing if it can be avoided. Also, and oddly, Optical out of my CD player into my Qutest sounded trash. Coax was far better.
I'm really confused by this. In asynchronous USB DACs, the DAC uses its own clock rather than relying on the timing from the USB source, helping to reduce jitter for a cleaner audio signal. So, if you connect the streamer to the DAC via USB, the effect should be the same as using this box. The streamer's clock won't be the one used. This setup is typically one of the key benefits of connecting a DAC via USB when asynchronous data transfer is supported. Can you please elaborate? What's exactly going on here?
@MaxFeken Exactly. Unfortunately, I doubt any explanation will change minds here; part of the comment section seems determined to believe that you need the box. Such is the nature of the more "audiophile" sector of music listeners, I suppose. 🤷♂️
Guys... I was skeptical that this would do anything to my source chain... I am pleasantly surprised! I did this hack connecting my Macbook Pro to my Burson Composer XP. Normally i'd connect via USB to the Composer... but now i'm going through the SMSL PO100 then out of the SMSL Optical into the Burson. Then using the Soloist 3XP as a headphone amplifier. I cant believe it!! it smoothed out the harshness, improved instrument separation, echoes ring out a bit longer... i'm shocked. Things sound more natural. I keep switching between USB direct and Optical through the PO100... It looks like this little device is doing its job!! cleaning up the signal before getting to the DAC. I think i'll keep it :)
I also was surprised to try out a glass Optical cable that actually does sound decent. I think it has to be glass, not the plastic Toslink, but still it only cost me about $20 if I recall. And I'm using Denafrips Pontus Dac, no slouch.
@@johnkom2339 oh interesting. I am using an AudioQuest Carbon Optical Toslink which i guess is "19 Narrow-Aperture Highest-Purity Synthetic Fibers"... whatever that means lol
Ok folks - I’ve seen a lot of comments debating this “hack.” All I can say is that I’m running the SMSL device to go from USB on WiiM streamer into I2S on my SMSL D400EX dual AKM DAC and it is staggeringly good (and the DAC was pretty amazing to begin with). The sound is rich and has incredible depth. Sound stage is absolutely wider. I actually bought this before reading about the hack, so I’m not sure what voodoo it does for SPDIF or coax out since I don’t use that. Yes it does knock out the sub but I switch to standard coax/SPDIF output if I need that - just a button press!
I was using the optical out from my LG C1 to feed my Dac (FiiO K11 R2R) for my gaming audio. I bought the PO100 to see if it would improve my audio and it was a noticeable difference worth the $60. Games often times have some of the best sound tracks so my experience w/ this lil device has been quite enjoyable.
How did you connect TV>PO100>K11 when the PO100 will only take usb input according to the product page? This is not a critical question I’m genuinely curious.
Have you by chance done stereo left and right channel test after connecting the PO100? I just got mine today and the left and right channels are backwards. 😂 It’s been verified via numerous tests. I just flipped the left and right analog cables from my DAC to preamp at the preamp input and all is good but kind of sucks. You should run a test and see if yours is the same.
@taleslobosco2631 If the WiiM Ultra has jitter problems, it could well do. But if your DAC has USB in, just use that, and you avoided buying this $60 device. This is because when connected via USB, the DAC will use its own clock, just like this box. Essentially, this is not needed for most people.
Thanks for that tip, Randy. I purchased the PO100 (I don't need I2S), and it has made a significant improvement to the USB output of my desktop computer. More than worth the £38 it costs in Blighty. I'm wondering how much better the PO100 could perform if I feed it a clean 5-volts via a modified USB cable? I will report back if I get a worthwhile result.
Please do as I too have invested in this cheaper yet hopefully not lesser device, as I too do not require the so called PRO product double priced unavailable model
An easier approach… connect the Ultra USB directly to a Schiit Audio DAC with Unison USB input. It buffers the units and reclocks with precision clocks. From Modi+ to Yggy+. It works!
Even easier just connect any of the WiiM ultras outputs if you have a Chord DAC. The FPGA chip on Chord DACs uses Digital phase locked loops. This means the FPGA measures the input then it discards the source clock and creates its own working clock that’s locked with the local master clock. This removes any jitter. I use a PO100PRO, but not with WiiM and only to turn usb into optical, not for re-clocking. All the best!
There's definitely something to this in the real world. The better the quality of the signal that I feed my DAC the better the sound quality I get from the DAC. I have something similar to the SMSL P0100, but higher end. It's a DDC with USB in and coax, optical and I2s out like the PO100. USB out from my computer goes into the DDC and it outputs via I2S into the DAC. And it's not a subtle "I think I might hear a difference," it's a dramatic upgrade in the sound quality versus going from the computer to the DAC directly, and someone would need to be deaf, dumb and blind to not hear it.
cheaper ones don't make much difference in my experience (I have a po100 and the douk U2pro) mostly just filters out USB noise from my PC and small tweaks to how the soundstage is
HUGE difference on my SMSL D400EX (with the dual AKMs) DAC being fed via I2S from my WiiM - it’s sounding like a $3-5k streaming setup (no lie) as I’ve done A/B testing. Blows the doors off the SPDIF/coax feeds.
Reclockers/DDC is the old magic known to many audiophiles. I can stick one of these ddc with superior clocks to a raspberry pi and it will upgrade any mid-fi dac out there. The results are always stunning. Make sure you use an ultra low noise power supply for the ddc.
@@Thoughtflux The SMSL PO100 PRO only has one USB port, which is connected to the source for both power and data. There's no way I can figure you can use a LPS unless you have some method of splitting the data and power on the USB input?
@superspeeder then get the douk audio one. That should have a separate DC input. If you have the budget then buy upgraded ones with better clocks like crystek. Power needs to be separate from data. The whole point is to prevent the source injecting noise into your dac. Only expensive dacs have some kind of decent isolation and most don't work great. You will immediately see a difference.
@Randy. At first I was skeptical about this and prior to this video, It was one of those "smoke blowing up the a$$" things. So given that you proved this works, I am thinking about trying it. As it is I am considering getting the Wiim Ultra, mainly to use as a pre-amp. I do have a couple questions. You mentioned that the subwoofer output doesn't work? Sooo what does it do? Does it just stop outputting the sound? Given that this unit takes USB out and converts it to Coax and Toslink, I am wondering if this would be a good alternative to a digital output for a computer. I was considering getting the Geshelli J2 4499 for a DAC. I know the USB input is optional on that, but if the SMSL PO100 has those digital outs, then you probably don't need the USB input for the J2. Thanks for the review on this little module and your input on it. For $60, it certainly worth a try. As for those manufacturers that think they can get several thousand dollars for a reclocking unit? Well, you probably know what I would say to that, "Stick it where the sun don't shine!"
Had the strangest experience with this video. It opened with the soundtrack playing Indonesian. When I checked the language settings, the original English soundtrack was unavailable. French, German, Japanese, Hindi, yeah, but not English. Weird. Restarted the video and the problem fixed itself. Anyhow, interesting vid. Had no idea an internal clock would make such a difference.
If you run USB out to your Geschllli DAC, the DAC uses its own clock. (async). If you run coaxial out, the stremers clock does the work, but it depends on the DAC. Some DACs have internal reclocking.
@@britishskiing you guys need to go check out the Paul McGowan vid he did on clocking. Like I said in the video though. Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself.
@@brannonmcevers1854 100% right. He's not the source to be educated on the engineering side of audio electronics AT ALL. Very much a subjectivist with old school thinking.
So then the test would be to see if you hear audible differences between WIIM USB output directly into J2 vs. using the re-clocker in-between. I think Randy usually uses Optical into the J2 so this is another variable in this wild world of HiFi fun
Everything you said is true, I've had an SMSL PO100 for over a year and without a doubt the sound always improves when I connect it to any streamer with a USB output. The biggest impact I felt in improving the sound was with the following connection: ZEN Stream (powered by a 15V Sbooster) -> Audioquest Carbon USB A>C -> SMSL PO100 -> Audioquest Carbon HDMI (I2S) -> Denafrips Pontus II. Introducing the SMSL PO100 into my system, with Audioquest Carbon series cables, took my system to another level. Even if you don't install such expensive cables, with a small investment in the PO100, there is a much greater improvement in sound than the amount spent.
My experience: the difference is NOT subtle! System: Qubuz>ifi Zen Stream (they state they went overboard designing the USB output)>USB>Denafrips Enyo15th>Unison Research Unico Primo>original Living Voice speakers with JMLabs/Focal Electra SW. As a short/small example, Henri Mancini's Pink Panther theme has some "blaring" horns, especially at the end. Well, they WERE blaring, almost hurting the ear, just a mush of horns shouting at you. With this little box between the ifi Zen Stream and the DAC (Stream>USB>PO 100>toslink>DAC), those horns were all clearly discernible, individually and not at all blaring, bass was clearer and stronger. etc, etc, etc... Very nice and very surprised!! I have a Musical Fidelity USB to toslink and coax asynchronous adapter that does nowhere near what this little gem does. This, in my system, is a clear No Brainer. I could go on, I will not. Just buy one!
I agree! Sounds fantastic. BUT, the left and right channels are reversed on mine. Ha ha. Have you checked yours? Find a stereo left and right test track. Let me know!
Update: my DAC is a Pontus II and I needed to switch the I2S protocol switch to mode 1 on the bottom of the PO100 and all is well with channels now. This thing sounds great!
I got the Wii Ultra. Replaced the my Pro. I'm using an external DAC. Is it me or does the Ultra sound flat compared to the Pro?? Sounds stage seems muddy too? Any suggestions?
No, you need the Ifi Audio SPDIF iPurifier2 which takes a digital coaxial input signal from your Wiim Pro and outputs coax and toslink (optical) into your DAC. It comes with an External power supply (Ifi iPower2) , adapters and toslink cable. Works great. Just purchased one for a Wiim Pro.
Hi, Thanks for your video and your recommendation. Do you think a USB connection with the S.M.S.L PO100 Pro is better than using the coaxial output from the WiiM Ultra to an external DAC?
I see there is the Smsl PS100 USB C DAC as well as the Smsl PS100 pro. Will they both work in your little WIIM hack? You used the pro version, but it seems that the other model has the needed inputs.. I can't find the pro version in stock here (Thailand), but I can find the other model.
I still fail to understand "jitter" and "clocking" in the digital stream, pre-dac. I assume a dac has a small buffer, and doesn't start out-puting until the buffer is full. Thus, qed, the timing of digital packets going into the buffer would not impact the analog signal coming out of the dac. I assume I'm wrong, because so much is made by so many about this clock and jitter thing. But I don't know how or why I'm wrong.
That is partly correct. Think of it this way. If you listen to AM radio the source is probably digital, i. e., a CD. But you don't get CD resolution because the delivery stream is noisey. Networks are the same. Full of noise and timing issues. This gizmo helps to correct a lot of that so the clock in the DAC isn't working so hard. I will do a video on this soon.
@@johnstump2433 Maybe we need to develop a Geritol product for DAC. "Does your DAC have a Data poor stream? Try "Digitol." "When you have your data, you have everything." I am not sure anybody will remember those commercials.
You call it the SMSL PO100 but what you got is the SMSL PO100 "PRO" and the SMSL PO100 "none pro" is almost half the price but it only has Coax and optical (no HDMI) my question is: will the "none pro" SMSL PO100 (at 48$) help in my setup? Home-theater-PC -> USB -> SMSL -> Pioneer VSX-421 -> DALI Zensor 3 (+ 10" ARGON subwoofer) 2. setup: Gaming PC -> optical -> SMSL PS100 -> DENON RCD-M38 -> DALI 202 (i guess this "chain" don't need re-clocking?)
I’m in the market for the WiiM Ultra, but want to use the bass management and sub out. Is there an issue still using USB out AND sub out? What about other features like EQ?
When the USB out is used on the WiiM ultra, the subwoofer bass management goes away. Had to go to the Coaxial out to use the sub output. Maybe WiiM will correct this eventually.
I have the WiiM Pro Ultra and I'm looking at this product and the SMSL SU1. I'm currently using powered Edifier 1700 speakers connected directly to the WiiM. If I understand correctly, I'd plug the WiiM Ultra into this via USB C, then Optical output from this to the SU 1, correct? Is this a worthwhile upgrade to my current setup or will I need an amp and passive speakers to really hear the difference? I'm a huge fan and thoroughly enjoy your videos. Thanks.
I use the same system and for my money and I have used £10'000 vinyl set up in the past this is the best sound I have ever achieved and I pay nothing for my music !
Thanks for this and your other vids! Please let me ask you a question. The reason you need or at least use this PO100 is because your Geshelli DAC does not have USB input, is that correct? I've got a spare Topping D50s with USB input and an XMOS chip, which makes the PO100 redundant. Do I unstand this correctly? Thanks
Ok, your channel was a major influence in my recent purchase of an Advance Paris A10 Classic *and* the Wiim Ultra... Now I need to decide whether to try this as an add-on in that mix. However I suppose buying through Amazon means if I don't notice any difference I can just return it 😊
My DAC has USB input as well as Coaxial and optical inputs. I assume going with USB between the WIIM and my DAC has the same benefit so not needing this?
Is it mandatory to have asynchronus USB from Wiim to do reclocking of the signal? There is devices that can do this with Coaxial or Toslink signal as well?
I run my xbox series X into my tv via hdmi, i use the game console to stream tv services or other apps. Then i run a digtial optical cable into my Home theater receiver a 2008 pioneer vsx 1019ah-k utilizing a 4.2 setup, for surround or 4 channel audio. Its a $450 that was better than something double its price at the time. Still runs fine in 2024. How will i set up my Wiim ultra in yoir opinion? I ordered the SMSL pro as you suggested.
Finally got this thing to work in my system. Stupid me had not changed the output setting on the Wiim app to USB. This little device is amazing and highly recommended. The change in sound it does to the Ultra is not huge but definitely significant!
To follow up on my previous comment on the PO100 significantly upgrading the USB connection from my PC to Chord 2qute, I wondered if it could be improved with a separate 5V supply. I was concerned about breaking into a USB cable and how that would upset the computer. Sure enough, my PC refused to recognise the PO100. Undeterred, I dug an elderly SOC PC out of the loft and fired it up with a stupidly expensive Sbooster LPS. I figured a clean 12V supply might translate to a clean USB 5V out. I will spare you the details, but the result is spectacular. I'm not suggesting upgrading a £38 audio interface with a £350 linear power supply makes any sense unless you have one spare. The point is the PO100 really works wonders. I ordered the Douk Audio version with 5V power input to see if it can work the same magic with an SOTM streamer.
On the day of this video, I managed to buy the last PO-100 Pro from Amazon, UK. Sorry about that lol It was a bit of a faff getting PC/PO-100/Denafrips dac via i2s to play together nicely as the manual is as useful as a politician. However, after a listening session, I can confirm that this little box does indeed do as advertised by El Cheapo. Well worth the £49.49 I paid. Thank you, Randyman.
I don’t get it. The clock only has to do with DA conversion. So if you’re using the WiiM to pass bit-perfect data from your WiFi or Ethernet router to your DAC, where it is converted to analog using the DAC’s clock, what is the SMSL doing?
For anyone unfamiliar with jitter and how it is NOT something you should stress about, do younself favor and watch Julian Krause video on the topic. Intelligent and easy to follow explanation. I applaud the young generation for being independent thinkers. And for those interested he also have link to original video explaining more in depth the topic of digital audio and all the misconceptions.
@@photo_n_art Hi, I’ll search for his videos. Are you saying that jitter caused by poor clocking is at the end not really a problem and therefore the mentioned device would not be that necessary? I’m new to this. Thank you
@@Kidii Yes, please watch the video. Most modern DACs are more than "good enough" as far as jitter goes. Some have it better under control than others but any difference is strictly empirical and is below audible level for human hearing. My point is: if you have $70 that is burning hole in your pocket and you want to spend it on something, by all means go ahead and make yourself feel better. But if you are tight on money and you feel like you have to buy it because otherwise your music will sound really bad, no it won't and it is something you can live without.
I have both the PO100 Pro and PO100 AK (DAC) for use in my car audio system so I can run an optical cable into my DSP. It’s a great compact device and probably not its typical use scenario but works for my purposes. Ultimately the 100 Pro will probably be the one that stays in the car. But the PO 100 AK is a great alternative for those who want to use one of these with the Wiim and an external DAC since it has a built in AKM chip which will allow the user to maintain a small footprint and it’s only $90.
@@gamecock2465 Thanks...i'm currently looking at Audison and JL VX series amps which have optical input... so this might be a good option to investigate. Cheers for the info
I always thought that most dacs had a clock generator or reclocker. I wonder if this is an exclusive problem of the Ultra or is the same problem happening with the AKM-based streamers. Another problem is that the information about the streaming rates is lost upon conversion from USB to spdif.
Thanks for the vid. i have all three of these. my Q is whats with the dsd colors on the po 100 there seems to be 3 colors blue green and red. when changing from other tracks. and why do i get a speaker pop when it changes from 16 bit to 24 bit.seems to only happen using the usb.
I have this. Nice little unit for the money. I come out of my PC into this USB and then into my Topping DX9 via IIS. I will have to try it on my Ultra!
I bought one of these to use in the car. I have a magical sound system in the car and my amp that has optical input. This thing is perfect as I can go usb c from iPhone into the smsl then out to my amp via optical.
(3:24) The WiiM Mini has an internal clock, albeit an inexpensive one. The Mini has SPDIF (Toslink and coax) outputs, and the source device controls the master clock with SPDIF connections. WiiM saves money with compact, inexpensive (noisy) switching power supplies and inexpensive clocks, which factors into its relative low cost. These shortcomings can be addressed with a decent linear power supply, and for SPDIF connections, an optical reclocker (e.g. Audiophonics DigiRescue).
So, I have Klipsch the Nines. I use the Wiim Ultra. I use HDMI Arc from the TV to the Wiim Ultra and then analog out to my Nines. Going analog out of the Wiim to my powered speakers uses the DAC in the Wiim ultra instead of what I assume is a lesser DAC built into the Klipsch speakers if I had went digital out to the speakers and bypassing the wiim DAC by doing it that way. So if im understanding correctly with this device I would have to set it up in the chain so im going digital out to the PO100 and then digital out of that to my Klipsch nines. This would then utilize the DAC in my nines and bypassing the superior DAC in the Wiim ultra. Is this worth it?
Question, So would you still put this in regardless of what kind of external DAC you have to clean up the jitter? Say if i use the Ultra to the SMSL MQA-DAC1, still put this in between?
Does the pre-amp works on the usb output? Currently I'm using my wiim as a pre-amp for a old Harman Kardon power amplifier. In between there is a musical fidelity v-dac on the coax-out on the wiim ultra. So I need the volume control of the wiim
For a number of years now, work has been proceeding in order to bring perfection to the crudely conceived idea of a transmission that would not only supply inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase detractors, but would also be capable of automatically synchronizing cardinal grammeters. Such an instrument is the turbo encabulator.
The best part of this video is: "I don't really know much about clocking... But I did watch a cool video...". In other words. I do not know much, but I am doing a video about it and I am talking 5-10 minutes about it. Good joke. What do You think? Why better DACs have isolation, buffer and reclock on their inputs? It is the simillar but better job, what this "magic box" does. You don't have to reclock something what is buffered and reclocked by the DAC itself. It is nonsense. If the DAC does isolation, buffering and reckclocking, transfer to DAC doesn't matter. Yes the connection has to be stable without pops, dropouts and has to have a basic quality. The digital signal is corrected by the DAC and all the jitter is just from the DAC's internal clock. You can think about it as this "magic box" but in much higher quality and it is part of the DAC. It is the same process as factory produces something. The order of the components (signal, 0 or 1) came to store (buffer) is irrelevant. When all components arive (buffered), factory starts the completition process (reclocking). The quality of the product (sound) depends just on a quality of the factory (DAC) and non of the suppliers (source) quality.
@cheapaudioman I have the Wiim Ultra feeding an older Marantz PM17 and I'm considering a DAC plus potentially this PO100. (There's another seller on Amazon that still has them.) Will I benefit from a MODI+ or SMSL SU-1 or is the Wiim Ultra internal DAC better than these?
Hi, I bought the SMSL PO100 Pro and I hooked it up with my WiiM ultra but how do I power the SMSL SU1 DAC that I have, do I need to power it with an external power supply. I get power to the DDC from the WiiM but does the SMSL PO100 Pro supply power to the DAC. I think I'm going to have to buy a separate power supply for the DAC to get this to work like you say.
It's similar with the iFi SPDIF iPurifier (at $199). It's essential for R2R external DACs. DACs based on something like ESS DAC chip have integrated hardware to deal with jitter.
+1,on ifi spdif iPurifier 2 with iFi iPower X, glass toslink cable, with wiim pro, to Metrum Octave, major difference in a moderate audiophile system. Wonder how good this smsl is in comparison?
I like how my iFi Purifier3 worked for me. I’m glad SMSL created this clocker I may have highly considered purchasing before I bought mine. I do like the slick look of the iFi though.
I agree, I have been using an iFi Purifier USB as well for some time. Made a definite improvement. That said, I ordered one of these SMSL units as well to see if it makes an additional improvement and will allow me to use I2S with my Pontus II.
@ I’m very happy where I’m at. Awesome, if it’s better, can you please tell me below? Got to at least, give it a month, though. My last upgrade was from attaching $25 real carbon fiber outlet faceplate. You may hear thousands of miles of dirty copper cables clean up. Hint: eB
Would that mean I have to give up listening to my music via USB? I want to get the Wiim Ultra to listen to my music that is on a hard drive. I have a lot of music that is not on any streaming. If I use that substantial sound enhancement, do I give up listening to the music on my hard drive? If so, how complicated.
Picked one of these and and it made a profound improvement to my system! Holy crap. Using it between an iFi Zen Stream and a Pontus II with I2S connection. Simple 6” hdmi cable. Simply can’t believe the added spatial aspects with bigger overall, wider, deeper, taller soundstage. Blacker background, tighter imaging. Definitely increased resolution. The treble range is cleaned up, less edge and glare. Freaking amazing. Also, this thing breaks in! Gets better after a day and even better after two days of playing. BTW, for the Pontus II I had to switch the I2S configuration on the bottom of the PO100 to "Mode 1" to work right with the Pontus.
IMO, the best DDC is likely to be the one already built into your (asynchronous USB-enabled) DAC. Only if your DAC lacks a USB input (or lacks proper galvanic isolation on its USB input) would I expect the SMSL PO100 to prove beneficial vs. a simple USB cable between streamer and DAC.
After watching this video, I tried connecting my Wiim Ultra to my Musical Fidelity v192 then to my Gungnir dac. Originally I connected the wiim ultra using optical cabel. I find the sound is more refined and more resolving with the v192 in btwn the wiim and the dac. It is quite a significant improvement to my ears.
Hi Randy. Are there products like this if you are using lightpipe (optical) from a WiiM product direct to a DAC, is there a need for reclocking? If so, what is the product to try (I have the WiiM Pro - not the Ultra)? Is this reclocking issue just a concern when using USB output on the WiiM?
I took a chance based on this review, guessing that the USB out wasn’t the cleanest from my Raspberry Pi. Anyway, using the I2S into my DAC, I’m going to have to say, things have improved. I don’t have enough money invested in it for it be completely placebo effect. If it didn’t do anything, it could always go back to Amazon anyway. Thanks for the tip!
Thank you again for the video Randy. Hmmm what about connecting the usb out on the WiiM directly into the Geshelli Labs DAC (given you ordered the USB input board). You save one component and the heartbeat should be triggered on the DAC side...?
I have addressed most of the questions everyone has on this device here: ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx1bsDIYjUul5EtYCyt37YhwPX7s4RNho3 Please refer to it as there are many misconceptions about how this device works. I will do a video on it soon.
Can you take a look at the question I asked? Nothing in that link answers it.
@@bigmclargehuge1170 I can't find your question.
@@OldGuyHifi If the difference is audible, it should show up on a graph. Can you show us how the FR and/or impulse response changes by bypassing the clock?
@@OldGuyHifiI think the question is: If we have a DAC (Geshelli J2) with a USB input does it do the same thing as this device? It is my understanding that the USB signal gets the “timing done” at the end of the chain (aka in the DAC) where optical sends timing information along with the signal…but so could be 100% wrong and need all the help I can get to reduce jitter etc.
Thank!!
@@AbsoluteTU Yes the DAC can correct for some, but not all timing and jitter issues. In the design of all products compromises need to be made for cost vs performance considerations. In this instance it is not the DAC where the issue lies. It is the very noisy, il-timed stream coming from the WiiM that is the real issue. The SMSL unit kind of "pre-cleans" the stream so the DAC's oscillator clocks can be more accurate. My wife rinses off all of the dishes going into the dishwasher so it can do a better job of cleaning the dishes. The SMAL PO 100 is the rinse before the wash gizmo. Does that make sense? Thx.
Adding to the discussion as a long time audiophile and electrical engineer: Jitter has been a concern for decades. The WIIM Ultra is a very good product. I'd like to suggest that WIIM develop and release a high quality streaming product that includes a better clock stage along with a very good internal DAC and upgraded power supply. Unnecessary features such as the mediocre phono preamp could be eliminated as part of a new, reasonably-priced product for audiophiles. Do a few things well instead of being a 'jack of all trades.'
If they would only listen to the engineers.
I decided to try the PO100 Pro "hack" and I can not believe I am saying this but what a major improvement from just coming out of the Ultra optically into a Cambridge Dac Magic 200 into a Marantz 2240 then out toa pair of Dynaco A25's It is amazing how it sounds to me like the highs have "opened up" even on this 90% vintage system. Best $70 I spent this holiday season.
Could you please show these pieces when they are actually connected to each other (instead of just verbally describing it)? This really would make what you're talking about so much easier to understand for us relative newbies. Tia!
@petec572 He's connecting the streamer to this box via USB, then using coax or optical to the DAC. This is so he can use the clock in the box and not the streamer. However, this is completely pointless if your DAC has USB in. Just use that, and you'll use the DAC's clock. Essentially, this is a hack that's not needed for most people.
@@cunawaritI took the $60 gamble, I’ll report back and we’ll see if your comment is true. Maybe it comes down to if the smsl clock is better than whatever external dac you’re using
@@bespey it's not too bad a gamble if you have a console to use it with. It's a neat little box for its intended use, and it will not make things worse anyway 😁
I'm confused as well....
Thanks again Randy, you started me back on my audiophile journey 3 years ago with the Wiim pro plus and now moved on the the Wiim Ultra. Just added a PO100 Pro that I was able to get through AliExpress. Everything you said and more is true. I’m going from the Ultra to the PO100 with the usb cable that came with it. And then optical out of the PO100 to optical in to my Geshelli J3 Dac with Sparkos 2590 discrete opamps. Couldn’t be happier. The improvement with the PO100 was even greater than when I upgraded the Geshelli opamps. It’s a big SQ improvement in my system which is impossible not the hear…
The placebo is kicking hard. I don't know who paid cheapaudioman for this "hack", but someone clearly did.
Good to know as I have the same dac…if you have usb in the j3 that’s the best way to go, 2nd is spdif coax. Might want to try those too
@ unfortunately I ordered my J3 without USB because I thought it mostly applied for use with computers which I don’t plan to do. Just got an upgraded usb cable which to me sounds about the same as the cheap one the PO100 came with😳. I’m expecting an AQ coax cable tomorrow which is supposed to be better than USB.
@@pd5338consider making your own coax cable. Thanbar has some great videos on it
@@gurratell7326 NOT TRUE, so if I were you I'd be real careful what you wrongly write there gurratell as gut ta un real as your unfounded guttural feelings may be seen to be here could be read as being libel & thus you may be held liable.
Good Lord! It's not a 'hack' if it's introducing a redundant device into the chain! In 99.99993% of use cases, if you have a WiiM Ultra and already use an external DAC with a USB input, if it employs asynchronous USB transfer (like the overwhelming majority of modern DACs do), the DAC’s internal clock governs the audio data timing, effectively mitigating any incoming jitter. Adding an external reclocker to the chain would be redundant, as the DAC already manages reclocking. It doesn't matter how inexpensive a device is, it's redundant and a waste of time and/or money. Stop the madness!
Couldn't agree more. You're just offloading clock duty to another rather inexpensive device (the SMSL) and trusting that it will do a better job than the wiim. Just skip this component and go straight into a well-regarded USB DAC, which will undoubtedly mitigate any clock issues inherent with the wiim.
I also agree. It only makes sense if you have a good DAC that has no USB input.
Totally agree. Sadly a lot of hi-fi channels seem obsessed with suggesting "upgrades" that are entirely unnecessary.
Your point may be technically true and logical, and Randy allows for this in his video (his skepticism was like yours...until he heard the difference with his particular set-up, clearly astonishing him). I don't find his surprising experience, and astonishment, madness; I find it intriguing and compelling. And it fills my soul with happiness that someone is open enough to have their opinion changed in such a positive, enthusiastic, chid-like way. We could all learn from his humility.
@@danielwalsh8168 I don’t think anyone attacked Randy personally. My main concern is that this channel has built its reputation as a reliable resource for affordable Hi-Fi, and it truly excels in helping viewers understand Randy’s take on new, budget-friendly products. Thanks to this channel, I discovered brands like Aiyima and Fosi, which have been great additions to my setup. In this way, the channel has set itself apart from others that promote “snake oil” products, which can feel more like scams than genuine recommendations.
It’s understandable, then, that viewers might feel disappointed seeing a beloved channel drift into “snake oil” territory. The straightforward, honest reviews of quality, affordable gear are what make this channel shine.
I love these little tidbits of sonic wisdom. I asked Geshelli if they could tweak their preamp to... they said not... but the DayZee is in the oven so this smsl doohicky will be very welcome! Thanks!
Hi Randy, Could the sound improvement be because a different external DAC was used? When using the SMSL, does it disable the Wiim's equalizer and volume control?
Doesn't the external DAC do the clocking when using the USB output on the Ultra? I'm confused.
Yes USB output is asynchronous - the DAC 's internal clock will be used.
@@soumyajitdeb3943 You're correct, PLUS reclocking the spdif connections requires a cache. There is probably going to be some audio lag when playing/streaming music videos or movies.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
I was thinking the same thing, the DAC will use its own clock.
When looking at this and the other model linked it seems like the only difference between this and similar products is they both have an XMOS chip. Even from SMSL's description it's really meant for laptops and possibly game consoles.
I could see where this might help on a laptop, where the output is noisy and the clock isn't tuned for audio because that's not it's primary purpose. This would mean if there is an improvement then the USB output on the WiiM is the issue.
One of the reviews even said he had zero issues when listening to his WiiM streamer on his DAC but when he switched over to his laptop, sound quality was worse and this device did improve audio quality. That I could see as potentially being true
At the end of the day any decent quality DAC is going to do a better job of any relocking that's needed. I know in a DAC the relocking used starts to matter more when you get into 2, 4 or even 8 DAC chips as the master clock has to keep the DAC's in sync.
@@TriAmpMyFi Yes, one of my concerns, another device processing your signal will mean additional lag which is annoying with watching video\movies.
So the real question is, does the geshelli have a crap clock? Use the usb in the J2S because since it’s carried over usb, it will be forced to use the DACs internal clock to reclocke the data. This isn’t just for things like the SMSL. Whenever you use usb the device you are sending to will clock the data.
But if you have the J2S without USB input?
I’ve been using this with my mojo2 Dac for quite a while now, it’s great. I use it in both my hifi and headphone setup to turn all usb (also works with lightning otg cables) signals I connect into optical instead. It sounds great! It improves audio from any laptop, phone or tablet I’ve used with mojo2.
All the best!
Surprising...
What?!!
You have a Rob Watts-designed FPGA DAC with a USB input, yet you’re taking a perfect, asynchronous USB signal only to put it through a cheap xmos clock, converting your already asynchronous signal to Coax or optical and taking the clocking capabilities of the mojo2 away???
This is both lunacy and hilarious.
@@britishskiing I’m still using the full clocking capability’s of the Mojo2. All the Chord DACs FPGAs use Digital Phase Locked Loops. It measures the input and then discards the source clock creating its own working clock that’s locked to the local master clock (even over Toslink). This is said to eliminate jitter.
When clocking/jitter isn’t an issue, the benefits of Toslink over USB become apparent. Including much less noise transmitted from the power supply, with no random RF interference or noise floor modulation. This means a very low and stable noise floor, greater instrument clarity and separation, as well as stable instrument timbre and reduced artificial sharpness and brightness. All making for a clearer smoother, more refined and much less fatiguing sound. I’ve tested it for myself with my own gear and I’ve blind tested my friends/family. Don’t take my word for it though, Rob Watts states it publicly.
Mojo2s optical implementation is very well done. Rob Watts has stated publicly that in his opinion Toslink surpasses USB for audio quality, even when only using USB for signal with separate high quality power supply. Obviously USB can handle more raw data with DSD, but both the PO100PRO and Mojo2 output 24bit 192khz through Toslink. Robb Watts has also stated (many times) that he feels DSD is inferior to PCM because of noise etc. When taking the DACs design, the opinions of its designer and the hardware implementation into account, it actually makes sense to use the optical instead of USB with the Mojo2 when possible.
You should check out the 2024 Rob Watts CanJam seminar where he states all of this himself, and then do some of your own research and testing with your own Chord equipment. There are exceptions to every rule, and graphs can’t tell you the entire story. You just have to experiment with what sounds the best with the gear you have!
All the best!
@aj8ky the hero we have but do not deserve. ❤
@@aj8ky The USB on my Holo Cyan 2 has galvanic isolation! All the benefits of Toslink and all the benefits of USB data.
Weirdly only the USB is isolated but that’s why the USB implementation on the Cyan 2 is unmatched by any other DAC, including Chord.
Btw, I am a Chord fanboy and I know Rob knows his stuff, but he is referring to an optical source to optical Chord DAC. Digital data conversion is never a good thing if it can be avoided.
Also, and oddly, Optical out of my CD player into my Qutest sounded trash. Coax was far better.
I'm really confused by this. In asynchronous USB DACs, the DAC uses its own clock rather than relying on the timing from the USB source, helping to reduce jitter for a cleaner audio signal.
So, if you connect the streamer to the DAC via USB, the effect should be the same as using this box. The streamer's clock won't be the one used.
This setup is typically one of the key benefits of connecting a DAC via USB when asynchronous data transfer is supported.
Can you please elaborate? What's exactly going on here?
This is helpful
@peytonsnead3114 you are welcome 😀
@@cunawarit Hey i asked the same question. That would certainly clear things up. Just get a good DAC with USB input!
@MaxFeken Exactly. Unfortunately, I doubt any explanation will change minds here; part of the comment section seems determined to believe that you need the box. Such is the nature of the more "audiophile" sector of music listeners, I suppose. 🤷♂️
Guys... I was skeptical that this would do anything to my source chain... I am pleasantly surprised! I did this hack connecting my Macbook Pro to my Burson Composer XP. Normally i'd connect via USB to the Composer... but now i'm going through the SMSL PO100 then out of the SMSL Optical into the Burson. Then using the Soloist 3XP as a headphone amplifier.
I cant believe it!! it smoothed out the harshness, improved instrument separation, echoes ring out a bit longer... i'm shocked. Things sound more natural. I keep switching between USB direct and Optical through the PO100... It looks like this little device is doing its job!! cleaning up the signal before getting to the DAC. I think i'll keep it :)
I also was surprised to try out a glass Optical cable that actually does sound decent. I think it has to be glass, not the plastic Toslink, but still it only cost me about $20 if I recall. And I'm using Denafrips Pontus Dac, no slouch.
@@johnkom2339 oh interesting. I am using an AudioQuest Carbon Optical Toslink which i guess is "19 Narrow-Aperture Highest-Purity Synthetic Fibers"... whatever that means lol
@@johnkom2339 😂
So presumably the Geshelli is not able to sort this going digitally from the WiiM to its digital input?
Not if the Geshelli doesn't have something to correct the clock before it hits the DAC in its own chain.
Ok folks - I’ve seen a lot of comments debating this “hack.” All I can say is that I’m running the SMSL device to go from USB on WiiM streamer into I2S on my SMSL D400EX dual AKM DAC and it is staggeringly good (and the DAC was pretty amazing to begin with). The sound is rich and has incredible depth. Sound stage is absolutely wider. I actually bought this before reading about the hack, so I’m not sure what voodoo it does for SPDIF or coax out since I don’t use that. Yes it does knock out the sub but I switch to standard coax/SPDIF output if I need that - just a button press!
I was using the optical out from my LG C1 to feed my Dac (FiiO K11 R2R) for my gaming audio. I bought the PO100 to see if it would improve my audio and it was a noticeable difference worth the $60. Games often times have some of the best sound tracks so my experience w/ this lil device has been quite enjoyable.
How did you connect TV>PO100>K11 when the PO100 will only take usb input according to the product page? This is not a critical question I’m genuinely curious.
Hi. Pray tell. What is the setup like? Many thanks
@@michaeldina1103also interested lol
Have you by chance done stereo left and right channel test after connecting the PO100? I just got mine today and the left and right channels are backwards. 😂 It’s been verified via numerous tests. I just flipped the left and right analog cables from my DAC to preamp at the preamp input and all is good but kind of sucks. You should run a test and see if yours is the same.
Does the sub out and bass management still work on the ultra if you use this hack?
It sounds better than the optical out an the Wiim Ultra connected to an external DAC?
@taleslobosco2631 If the WiiM Ultra has jitter problems, it could well do. But if your DAC has USB in, just use that, and you avoided buying this $60 device. This is because when connected via USB, the DAC will use its own clock, just like this box. Essentially, this is not needed for most people.
Thanks!
Thanks for that tip, Randy. I purchased the PO100 (I don't need I2S), and it has made a significant improvement to the USB output of my desktop computer. More than worth the £38 it costs in Blighty. I'm wondering how much better the PO100 could perform if I feed it a clean 5-volts via a modified USB cable? I will report back if I get a worthwhile result.
Please do as I too have invested in this cheaper yet hopefully not lesser device, as I too do not require the so called PRO product double priced unavailable model
An easier approach… connect the Ultra USB directly to a Schiit Audio DAC with Unison USB input. It buffers the units and reclocks with precision clocks. From Modi+ to Yggy+. It works!
Great, but you'll lose full base management with a sub over USB
Even easier just connect any of the WiiM ultras outputs if you have a Chord DAC. The FPGA chip on Chord DACs uses Digital phase locked loops. This means the FPGA measures the input then it discards the source clock and creates its own working clock that’s locked with the local master clock. This removes any jitter.
I use a PO100PRO, but not with WiiM and only to turn usb into optical, not for re-clocking.
All the best!
Will the same effect work with another SMSL product like the SU-1?
There's definitely something to this in the real world. The better the quality of the signal that I feed my DAC the better the sound quality I get from the DAC. I have something similar to the SMSL P0100, but higher end. It's a DDC with USB in and coax, optical and I2s out like the PO100. USB out from my computer goes into the DDC and it outputs via I2S into the DAC. And it's not a subtle "I think I might hear a difference," it's a dramatic upgrade in the sound quality versus going from the computer to the DAC directly, and someone would need to be deaf, dumb and blind to not hear it.
cheaper ones don't make much difference in my experience (I have a po100 and the douk U2pro) mostly just filters out USB noise from my PC and small tweaks to how the soundstage is
What model do you have?
HUGE difference on my SMSL D400EX (with the dual AKMs) DAC being fed via I2S from my WiiM - it’s sounding like a $3-5k streaming setup (no lie) as I’ve done A/B testing. Blows the doors off the SPDIF/coax feeds.
Reclockers/DDC is the old magic known to many audiophiles. I can stick one of these ddc with superior clocks to a raspberry pi and it will upgrade any mid-fi dac out there. The results are always stunning. Make sure you use an ultra low noise power supply for the ddc.
This one is powered through the USB input, so no external PS option here.
@superspeeder you can use LPS with USB power output.
@@Thoughtflux The SMSL PO100 PRO only has one USB port, which is connected to the source for both power and data. There's no way I can figure you can use a LPS unless you have some method of splitting the data and power on the USB input?
@superspeeder then get the douk audio one. That should have a separate DC input. If you have the budget then buy upgraded ones with better clocks like crystek. Power needs to be separate from data. The whole point is to prevent the source injecting noise into your dac. Only expensive dacs have some kind of decent isolation and most don't work great. You will immediately see a difference.
Ha-ha! The old masters Philips, Sony and teac-tascam never had any problems with reclocking!
@Randy. At first I was skeptical about this and prior to this video, It was one of those "smoke blowing up the a$$" things. So given that you proved this works, I am thinking about trying it. As it is I am considering getting the Wiim Ultra, mainly to use as a pre-amp.
I do have a couple questions. You mentioned that the subwoofer output doesn't work? Sooo what does it do? Does it just stop outputting the sound?
Given that this unit takes USB out and converts it to Coax and Toslink, I am wondering if this would be a good alternative to a digital output for a computer. I was considering getting the Geshelli J2 4499 for a DAC. I know the USB input is optional on that, but if the SMSL PO100 has those digital outs, then you probably don't need the USB input for the J2.
Thanks for the review on this little module and your input on it. For $60, it certainly worth a try. As for those manufacturers that think they can get several thousand dollars for a reclocking unit? Well, you probably know what I would say to that, "Stick it where the sun don't shine!"
Had the strangest experience with this video. It opened with the soundtrack playing Indonesian. When I checked the language settings, the original English soundtrack was unavailable. French, German, Japanese, Hindi, yeah, but not English. Weird. Restarted the video and the problem fixed itself. Anyhow, interesting vid. Had no idea an internal clock would make such a difference.
Same here.
This is the new 301 club.
Once you start using the USB output on any streamer, I don't think you can take advantage of room correction + EQ right?
If you run USB out to your Geschllli DAC, the DAC uses its own clock. (async). If you run coaxial out, the stremers clock does the work, but it depends on the DAC. Some DACs have internal reclocking.
So if I'm planning on buying a Geshelli J3, no need for this product?
@@robertldcarlsonor all DACs with a USB input.
This products is pretty much pointless.
@@britishskiing you guys need to go check out the Paul McGowan vid he did on clocking. Like I said in the video though. Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself.
@@brannonmcevers1854 100% right. He's not the source to be educated on the engineering side of audio electronics AT ALL. Very much a subjectivist with old school thinking.
So then the test would be to see if you hear audible differences between WIIM USB output directly into J2 vs. using the re-clocker in-between. I think Randy usually uses Optical into the J2 so this is another variable in this wild world of HiFi fun
Everything you said is true, I've had an SMSL PO100 for over a year and without a doubt the sound always improves when I connect it to any streamer with a USB output.
The biggest impact I felt in improving the sound was with the following connection:
ZEN Stream (powered by a 15V Sbooster) -> Audioquest Carbon USB A>C -> SMSL PO100 -> Audioquest Carbon HDMI (I2S) -> Denafrips Pontus II.
Introducing the SMSL PO100 into my system, with Audioquest Carbon series cables, took my system to another level. Even if you don't install such expensive cables, with a small investment in the PO100, there is a much greater improvement in sound than the amount spent.
Good to know, thanks! My connection will be iFi Zen Stream USB > iFi USB Purifier (yep another reclocker) > SMSL PO100 > HDMI I2S > Pontus II.
That’s a nice trick for results. If I’m not mistaken, Roon also does clock correction automatically on its end points.
My experience: the difference is NOT subtle! System: Qubuz>ifi Zen Stream (they state they went overboard designing the USB output)>USB>Denafrips Enyo15th>Unison Research Unico Primo>original Living Voice speakers with JMLabs/Focal Electra SW. As a short/small example, Henri Mancini's Pink Panther theme has some "blaring" horns, especially at the end. Well, they WERE blaring, almost hurting the ear, just a mush of horns shouting at you. With this little box between the ifi Zen Stream and the DAC (Stream>USB>PO 100>toslink>DAC), those horns were all clearly discernible, individually and not at all blaring, bass was clearer and stronger. etc, etc, etc... Very nice and very surprised!! I have a Musical Fidelity USB to toslink and coax asynchronous adapter that does nowhere near what this little gem does. This, in my system, is a clear No Brainer. I could go on, I will not. Just buy one!
I agree! Sounds fantastic. BUT, the left and right channels are reversed on mine. Ha ha. Have you checked yours? Find a stereo left and right test track. Let me know!
Update: my DAC is a Pontus II and I needed to switch the I2S protocol switch to mode 1 on the bottom of the PO100 and all is well with channels now. This thing sounds great!
Can we use the SMSL PO100 AK directly without use a DAC?
I got the Wii Ultra. Replaced the my Pro. I'm using an external DAC. Is it me or does the Ultra sound flat compared to the Pro?? Sounds stage seems muddy too? Any suggestions?
Hi I have the WiiM pro steamer ( doesn’t have usb) can this unit work with it? I hope so?
No, you need the Ifi Audio SPDIF iPurifier2 which takes a digital coaxial input signal from your Wiim Pro and outputs coax and toslink (optical) into your DAC. It comes with an External power supply (Ifi iPower2) , adapters and toslink cable. Works great. Just purchased one for a Wiim Pro.
The problem is that using the USB out disables the subwoofer output
.. and the bass management feature is too important to me
And yes, I tried it myself 2 days ago
Deal breaker.
Homer Simpson D’oh
Yap subwoofer output is more important to me
Hi,
Thanks for your video and your recommendation. Do you think a USB connection with the S.M.S.L PO100 Pro is better than using the coaxial output from the WiiM Ultra to an external DAC?
Hi there can you please show how this device smsl po100 is connected in line on the setup how it’s connected?
I see there is the Smsl PS100 USB C DAC as well as the Smsl PS100 pro. Will they both work in your little WIIM hack? You used the pro version, but it seems that the other model has the needed inputs.. I can't find the pro version in stock here (Thailand), but I can find the other model.
YES I too believe that this so
I still fail to understand "jitter" and "clocking" in the digital stream, pre-dac. I assume a dac has a small buffer, and doesn't start out-puting until the buffer is full. Thus, qed, the timing of digital packets going into the buffer would not impact the analog signal coming out of the dac. I assume I'm wrong, because so much is made by so many about this clock and jitter thing. But I don't know how or why I'm wrong.
That is partly correct. Think of it this way. If you listen to AM radio the source is probably digital, i. e., a CD. But you don't get CD resolution because the delivery stream is noisey. Networks are the same. Full of noise and timing issues. This gizmo helps to correct a lot of that so the clock in the DAC isn't working so hard. I will do a video on this soon.
@@OldGuyHifi I look forward to your video.
@@1donjuego Thank you.
@@OldGuyHifi
I am concerned now..
I need to email Geno and Sherri to check if there is a warranty for overworked DACs.
@@johnstump2433 Maybe we need to develop a Geritol product for DAC. "Does your DAC have a Data poor stream? Try "Digitol." "When you have your data, you have everything." I am not sure anybody will remember those commercials.
smsl po100 pro is available and pretty much same as smsl po100 ?
You should ask Geschlli Labs about this topic
Sometimes it seems Randy's last name is Geschilli. 😎
You call it the SMSL PO100 but what you got is the SMSL PO100 "PRO" and the SMSL PO100 "none pro" is almost half the price but it only has Coax and optical (no HDMI) my question is: will the "none pro" SMSL PO100 (at 48$) help in my setup?
Home-theater-PC -> USB -> SMSL -> Pioneer VSX-421 -> DALI Zensor 3 (+ 10" ARGON subwoofer)
2. setup: Gaming PC -> optical -> SMSL PS100 -> DENON RCD-M38 -> DALI 202 (i guess this "chain" don't need re-clocking?)
Does the smsl po100 work the same as the po100 pro?
I do believe that this is so
Yes
Are you using Coax output to DAC? why only WIIM Ultra? not mentioning PC or other sources with USB output?
Great solution at a low cost!! You are really the cheapaudioman !
I’m in the market for the WiiM Ultra, but want to use the bass management and sub out. Is there an issue still using USB out AND sub out? What about other features like EQ?
When the USB out is used on the WiiM ultra, the subwoofer bass management goes away. Had to go to the Coaxial out to use the sub output. Maybe WiiM will correct this eventually.
I have the WiiM Pro Ultra and I'm looking at this product and the SMSL SU1. I'm currently using powered Edifier 1700 speakers connected directly to the WiiM. If I understand correctly, I'd plug the WiiM Ultra into this via USB C, then Optical output from this to the SU 1, correct? Is this a worthwhile upgrade to my current setup or will I need an amp and passive speakers to really hear the difference? I'm a huge fan and thoroughly enjoy your videos. Thanks.
I use the same system and for my money
and I have used £10'000 vinyl set up in the
past this is the best sound I have ever
achieved and I pay nothing for my music !
Randy.... That's all cool and stuff... What is the one-box-fits-all alternative streamer that does the same thing?
Thanks for this and your other vids! Please let me ask you a question. The reason you need or at least use this PO100 is because your Geshelli DAC does not have USB input, is that correct? I've got a spare Topping D50s with USB input and an XMOS chip, which makes the PO100 redundant. Do I unstand this correctly? Thanks
Ok, your channel was a major influence in my recent purchase of an Advance Paris A10 Classic *and* the Wiim Ultra... Now I need to decide whether to try this as an add-on in that mix. However I suppose buying through Amazon means if I don't notice any difference I can just return it 😊
My DAC has USB input as well as Coaxial and optical inputs. I assume going with USB between the WIIM and my DAC has the same benefit so not needing this?
Correct. This is not needed for the vast majority of people.
does it work from a pc usb port stream, then to the dac amp ? and what dac amp would you recommend ?
Is it mandatory to have asynchronus USB from Wiim to do reclocking of the signal? There is devices that can do this with Coaxial or Toslink signal as well?
I run my xbox series X into my tv via hdmi, i use the game console to stream tv services or other apps. Then i run a digtial optical cable into my Home theater receiver a 2008 pioneer vsx 1019ah-k utilizing a 4.2 setup, for surround or 4 channel audio.
Its a $450 that was better than something double its price at the time. Still runs fine in 2024.
How will i set up my Wiim ultra in yoir opinion?
I ordered the SMSL pro as you suggested.
Finally got this thing to work in my system. Stupid me had not changed the output setting on the Wiim app to USB. This little device is amazing and highly recommended. The change in sound it does to the Ultra is not huge but definitely significant!
To follow up on my previous comment on the PO100 significantly upgrading the USB connection from my PC to Chord 2qute, I wondered if it could be improved with a separate 5V supply. I was concerned about breaking into a USB cable and how that would upset the computer. Sure enough, my PC refused to recognise the PO100. Undeterred, I dug an elderly SOC PC out of the loft and fired it up with a stupidly expensive Sbooster LPS. I figured a clean 12V supply might translate to a clean USB 5V out. I will spare you the details, but the result is spectacular. I'm not suggesting upgrading a £38 audio interface with a £350 linear power supply makes any sense unless you have one spare. The point is the PO100 really works wonders. I ordered the Douk Audio version with 5V power input to see if it can work the same magic with an SOTM streamer.
Why can't you feed the SMSL output right back into a WIIM ultra input versus a separate DAC?
Aye yes I too am wondering whether this might work????
On the day of this video, I managed to buy the last PO-100 Pro from Amazon, UK. Sorry about that lol It was a bit of a faff getting PC/PO-100/Denafrips dac via i2s to play together nicely as the manual is as useful as a politician. However, after a listening session, I can confirm that this little box does indeed do as advertised by El Cheapo. Well worth the £49.49 I paid. Thank you, Randyman.
hi Randy, very interesting video. question for you, would this work on the Wiim amp or is it strictly for the Ultra?
I don’t get it. The clock only has to do with DA conversion. So if you’re using the WiiM to pass bit-perfect data from your WiFi or Ethernet router to your DAC, where it is converted to analog using the DAC’s clock, what is the SMSL doing?
Interesting. Do we need this for Eversolo? 😅. Great sharing.
if u have a USB in on your dac can you just plug into that and have same result as dac clock will take over?
For anyone unfamiliar with jitter and how it is NOT something you should stress about, do younself favor and watch Julian Krause video on the topic. Intelligent and easy to follow explanation. I applaud the young generation for being independent thinkers.
And for those interested he also have link to original video explaining more in depth the topic of digital audio and all the misconceptions.
@@photo_n_art Hi, I’ll search for his videos. Are you saying that jitter caused by poor clocking is at the end not really a problem and therefore the mentioned device would not be that necessary? I’m new to this. Thank you
@@Kidii Yes, please watch the video. Most modern DACs are more than "good enough" as far as jitter goes. Some have it better under control than others but any difference is strictly empirical and is below audible level for human hearing.
My point is: if you have $70 that is burning hole in your pocket and you want to spend it on something, by all means go ahead and make yourself feel better. But if you are tight on money and you feel like you have to buy it because otherwise your music will sound really bad, no it won't and it is something you can live without.
I have both the PO100 Pro and PO100 AK (DAC) for use in my car audio system so I can run an optical cable into my DSP. It’s a great compact device and probably not its typical use scenario but works for my purposes. Ultimately the 100 Pro will probably be the one that stays in the car. But the PO 100 AK is a great alternative for those who want to use one of these with the Wiim and an external DAC since it has a built in AKM chip which will allow the user to maintain a small footprint and it’s only $90.
Interesting.....What is your source for your car audio setup ? smartphone or portable DAP ?
@ iPhone via the camera usb adapter. There’s a YT channel by Car Audio Horizons using this setup in car audio and he goes over it really well.
@@gamecock2465 Thanks...i'm currently looking at Audison and JL VX series amps which have optical input... so this might be a good option to investigate. Cheers for the info
@@markbradbury5266 if you run into the need for a custom length optical cable Blue jeans cable can make whatever length you need.
I always thought that most dacs had a clock generator or reclocker. I wonder if this is an exclusive problem of the Ultra or is the same problem happening with the AKM-based streamers. Another problem is that the information about the streaming rates is lost upon conversion from USB to spdif.
Crazy question - could you run the USB from the Wiim to the SMSL and then back into the digital input of the Wiim?
Thanks for the vid. i have all three of these. my Q is whats with the dsd colors on the po 100 there seems to be 3 colors blue green and red.
when changing from other tracks. and why do i get a speaker pop when it changes from 16 bit to 24 bit.seems to only happen using the usb.
I use it with my smsl a0200. Works great!
I have this. Nice little unit for the money. I come out of my PC into this USB and then into my Topping DX9 via IIS. I will have to try it on my Ultra!
I bought one of these to use in the car. I have a magical sound system in the car and my amp that has optical input. This thing is perfect as I can go usb c from iPhone into the smsl then out to my amp via optical.
(3:24) The WiiM Mini has an internal clock, albeit an inexpensive one. The Mini has SPDIF (Toslink and coax) outputs, and the source device controls the master clock with SPDIF connections. WiiM saves money with compact, inexpensive (noisy) switching power supplies and inexpensive clocks, which factors into its relative low cost. These shortcomings can be addressed with a decent linear power supply, and for SPDIF connections, an optical reclocker (e.g. Audiophonics DigiRescue).
So, I have Klipsch the Nines. I use the Wiim Ultra. I use HDMI Arc from the TV to the Wiim Ultra and then analog out to my Nines. Going analog out of the Wiim to my powered speakers uses the DAC in the Wiim ultra instead of what I assume is a lesser DAC built into the Klipsch speakers if I had went digital out to the speakers and bypassing the wiim DAC by doing it that way. So if im understanding correctly with this device I would have to set it up in the chain so im going digital out to the PO100 and then digital out of that to my Klipsch nines. This would then utilize the DAC in my nines and bypassing the superior DAC in the Wiim ultra. Is this worth it?
Can I use the SMSL PO100 pro between my Fosi v3 and the WiiM Ultra.?
Does this hack work with ps100 by smsl?
Question, So would you still put this in regardless of what kind of external DAC you have to clean up the jitter? Say if i use the Ultra to the SMSL MQA-DAC1, still put this in between?
Does the pre-amp works on the usb output? Currently I'm using my wiim as a pre-amp for a old Harman Kardon power amplifier. In between there is a musical fidelity v-dac on the coax-out on the wiim ultra. So I need the volume control of the wiim
What’s an internal clock for the wiim what does it do
어제 구매해서 장착해보았습니다
확실히 해상력이 높아지고 소리가 밝아진 느낌입니다
감사합니다!!
Bravo, well there you go folk, yet another whom has discovered how well this device works, well done!!!!
Just two things that confuse me: 1. Is this a non-issue if you connect the Ultra via line-out? 2. Is it only useful for DACs without USB input?
Got one of each, the SMSL and the Douk, they work!
For a number of years now, work has been proceeding in order to bring perfection to the crudely conceived idea of a transmission that would not only supply inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase detractors, but would also be capable of automatically synchronizing cardinal grammeters. Such an instrument is the turbo encabulator.
The best part of this video is: "I don't really know much about clocking... But I did watch a cool video...". In other words. I do not know much, but I am doing a video about it and I am talking 5-10 minutes about it. Good joke.
What do You think? Why better DACs have isolation, buffer and reclock on their inputs? It is the simillar but better job, what this "magic box" does. You don't have to reclock something what is buffered and reclocked by the DAC itself. It is nonsense.
If the DAC does isolation, buffering and reckclocking, transfer to DAC doesn't matter. Yes the connection has to be stable without pops, dropouts and has to have a basic quality. The digital signal is corrected by the DAC and all the jitter is just from the DAC's internal clock.
You can think about it as this "magic box" but in much higher quality and it is part of the DAC.
It is the same process as factory produces something. The order of the components (signal, 0 or 1) came to store (buffer) is irrelevant. When all components arive (buffered), factory starts the completition process (reclocking). The quality of the product (sound) depends just on a quality of the factory (DAC) and non of the suppliers (source) quality.
Bravo! This should have more upvotes.
It is the same clock chip in smsl su1 so can i skip this and use usb in in my su1 ant its dac?
Best regards Fredrik from sweden
@cheapaudioman I have the Wiim Ultra feeding an older Marantz PM17 and I'm considering a DAC plus potentially this PO100. (There's another seller on Amazon that still has them.) Will I benefit from a MODI+ or SMSL SU-1 or is the Wiim Ultra internal DAC better than these?
Does it also work through the WIIM Pro Plus?
Hi, I bought the SMSL PO100 Pro and I hooked it up with my WiiM ultra but how do I power the SMSL SU1 DAC that I have, do I need to power it with an external power supply. I get power to the DDC from the WiiM but does the SMSL PO100 Pro supply power to the DAC. I think I'm going to have to buy a separate power supply for the DAC to get this to work like you say.
Is there any value to adding this (wiim) to a system if I already am in the Apple ecosystem using an Onkyo RZ50, and Apple TV?
It's similar with the iFi SPDIF iPurifier (at $199).
It's essential for R2R external DACs. DACs based on something like ESS DAC chip have integrated hardware to deal with jitter.
+1,on ifi spdif iPurifier 2 with iFi iPower X, glass toslink cable, with wiim pro, to Metrum Octave, major difference in a moderate audiophile system.
Wonder how good this smsl is in comparison?
Got a deal on the ifi device for $150. Have one between my wiim pro and my J2S DAC. I could instantly tell the difference, was well worth the money.
@@b.k.7364
Upgrading the power supply for this iFi iPurifier 2 helps as well if you have a revealing system :)
Cool you got a good deal!
Bought the cheaper PO100… and playing Apple Music with iPad… it is so much better than with Airplay 2…
Thank you for a wonderful recommendation.
I like how my iFi Purifier3 worked for me. I’m glad SMSL created this clocker I may have highly considered purchasing before I bought mine. I do like the slick look of the iFi though.
I agree, I have been using an iFi Purifier USB as well for some time. Made a definite improvement. That said, I ordered one of these SMSL units as well to see if it makes an additional improvement and will allow me to use I2S with my Pontus II.
@
I’m very happy where I’m at.
Awesome, if it’s better, can you please tell me below?
Got to at least, give it a month, though.
My last upgrade was from attaching $25 real carbon fiber outlet faceplate. You may hear thousands of miles of dirty copper cables clean up.
Hint: eB
How can you hook this up to a vintage receiver? 🤔
Would that mean I have to give up listening to my music via USB? I want to get the Wiim Ultra to listen to my music that is on a hard drive. I have a lot of music that is not on any streaming. If I use that substantial sound enhancement, do I give up listening to the music on my hard drive? If so, how complicated.
Picked one of these and and it made a profound improvement to my system! Holy crap. Using it between an iFi Zen Stream and a Pontus II with I2S connection. Simple 6” hdmi cable. Simply can’t believe the added spatial aspects with bigger overall, wider, deeper, taller soundstage. Blacker background, tighter imaging. Definitely increased resolution. The treble range is cleaned up, less edge and glare. Freaking amazing. Also, this thing breaks in! Gets better after a day and even better after two days of playing. BTW, for the Pontus II I had to switch the I2S configuration on the bottom of the PO100 to "Mode 1" to work right with the Pontus.
OK. So how does this stack up to the S.M.S.L. DP5 SE?
IMO, the best DDC is likely to be the one already built into your (asynchronous USB-enabled) DAC. Only if your DAC lacks a USB input (or lacks proper galvanic isolation on its USB input) would I expect the SMSL PO100 to prove beneficial vs. a simple USB cable between streamer and DAC.
Does the I2s match the PS audio HDMI I2s?
After watching this video, I tried connecting my Wiim Ultra to my Musical Fidelity v192 then to my Gungnir dac. Originally I connected the wiim ultra using optical cabel. I find the sound is more refined and more resolving with the v192 in btwn the wiim and the dac. It is quite a significant improvement to my ears.
Hi Randy. Are there products like this if you are using lightpipe (optical) from a WiiM product direct to a DAC, is there a need for reclocking? If so, what is the product to try (I have the WiiM Pro - not the Ultra)? Is this reclocking issue just a concern when using USB output on the WiiM?
I took a chance based on this review, guessing that the USB out wasn’t the cleanest from my Raspberry Pi. Anyway, using the I2S into my DAC, I’m going to have to say, things have improved. I don’t have enough money invested in it for it be completely placebo effect. If it didn’t do anything, it could always go back to Amazon anyway. Thanks for the tip!
Thank you again for the video Randy. Hmmm what about connecting the usb out on the WiiM directly into the Geshelli Labs DAC (given you ordered the USB input board). You save one component and the heartbeat should be triggered on the DAC side...?