As someone who has played trench crusade and has found it to be pretty fun I’d agree with you that it is not a 40K killer in my opinion I think it can compete in the space but people hyping it up that much are a bit delusional. I don’t have an issue with you not liking trench crusade as it’s not for everyone, but I find your reasoning weird as to why. You say you read the lore that is available right now but I’m not sure how you could come to the conclusion that there isn’t anything worth fighting for as you put it. Is fighting against the forces of hell not worth fighting for? The iron sultanate defending their Great Wall so that their population isn’t killed or turned into daemon food, is that not enough stakes? I’m beginning to think you skimmed over the introduction to trench crusade and formed a whole opinion off of that.
To put it as succinctly as I can - The Imperium is a LOT better than Chaos, like infinitely better for the most part (surprising, I know) New Antioch, Iron Sultanate and other powers of order in Trench Crusade are basically Diet Hell. They are so bad and despotic that you may as well be fighting for the other side. That was my point, if there is no hope at all, why are we bothering?
@ I would agree with on the point of the imperium having the moral high ground on chaos I don’t think that is up for debate. From my reading of the lore the “good guys” being new Antioch, the sultanate, and trench pilgrims are miles better than the forces of hell. Sure they do horrific shit but I haven’t found anything that exceeds stuff like servitors, or living in a hive city levels of bad. If you can give me an example of something that out does the imperium I’d love to be proven wrong. I also don’t find the world of trench crusade any less hopeless than 40K, victory over hell is possible but it’s a war game setting so things have to be somewhat bleak and endless so we can have a game in the first place.
@@cactusproductions6531 in 40k there are places where that doesn't happen. None of that happens; the story doesn't focus on them because that would be boring, but there are places in the Imperium that would, objectively, be a good place to live. They are few and far between and with each day there are less and less of them, but they still exist.
“Until you find something to fight for, you settle for something to fight against.” ― chuck palahniuk Fighting against something isn't like fighting for something; you don't fight the forces of Hell just for the sake of doing so, you do it because you have loved ones back home who, should they be taken, will have their corpses defiled by the evil things in ways you can't even imagine.
As a 52 year old Rogue Trader player I welcome the uber-grimdark setting. GW has distanced the more 'problematic' things from the current 40k setting making it more noblebright than anything (particularly the imperium). The usage of religious themes is present in 40k, BUT, I do undersrtand that people of a religious persuasion will be uneasy at best about the trench crusade setting (I'm not particularly happy about the Templars yet again being the bad guys who started it all, despite the IRL historical facts pointing to the fact that they weren't the bad guys). The darkness of the setting appeals to the gen X in me I guess.
This is why templars are looked at like this. The Templars were accused of blasphemy and blamed for Crusader failures. In 1307, French officials arrested all Templars in the country. The Templars were tortured into confessing to sinful and criminal behavior, and many were burned at the stake. The Pope formally dissolved the order in 1312. The idea of religious warriors in modern terms is seen only as bad or sinister. This is why it is used like this and the name was tarnished for all history because of these events.
@@matt6387 While this all is true, this doesn't translate into comfortable environment for playing with other people. I would be considered a religious zealot by nearly everyone but I don't mix any of them with my gaming because they're two entirely different things. I enjoy the gaming and modeling to escape this world not find a new way to bring it into my life. Doesn't anyone think this setting is just going to provoke heated arguments? At least with fictional settings and imaginary characters, there's not a lot to get worked up over.
Why would it provoke any arguments? It IS a fictional setting with clearly fictional religion(s) that only have a passing superficial resemblance to real life Christianity.
I think you missed the plot on this one. Especially when you say there is nothing to fight for. New Antioch exists because kingdoms protected by it send tribute to keep it standing. If there is a front then that means there is a place behind the front that is separated from all the craziness. I do agree that it doesn't have enough lore yet, but I absolutely disagree that there isn't anything worth saving in that world.
agreed, there is actual signs of hope in the universe just covered by constant war. Im not sure what he met by nothing to fight for as if the "good" factions didn't have any civilization outside of combat.
I'd say that's the problem with a lot of war games. All the writing and focus goes into the Infinite war and everything behind the front gets left as an afterthought. It becomes easy to assume that it's just War for war's sake. War without reason.
@@conwaysquest6961 True, the civilian populace in wargames only gets brought up when the conflicts reach civilian areas (See Dropzone Commander for example).
At this point the only true "Warhammer Killer" is Games Workshop. At the end of the day, Trench Crusade will be talked about allot and then will be religated to the "adult" wargames like Forbidden Pslams. And we'll move on to another game from a old GW designer.
Fully understandable. I don't like it either but for different reason: The community being very politically charged. I think it's because of all the christian and satanist iconography, which attracts the kind of people that are like those unsavoury people (like THAT ONE chaos player) in 40k that desperately try to convince you on why you shouldn't like anything the imperium does. What I'm getting at is that this series seems to attract the "that will show the christians" and "media literacy"-crowds. Also the early community got baptized by fire with a whole lot political drama. For me this would be a bad sign for every game system let alone one that is in his infancy
so like wh40k? you either have people that take everything 100% serious or the complete opposite and the ones that take it 100% serious (fans and writes alike) are the reason whe have grimderp... i tbh prefer the not so serious approach
@@funfungerman8401 I prefer it when the writers take the setting serious up to a point. That’s not to say you can’t have your silly or over the top moments, but have respect for your creation and the audience. In a way, I want consistency in the tone and writing. Leave the shit posting and memes to the fans.
@@bc9402 Most authors dont communicate with each other and you then get Literally complete different facts about lore thingys also the fans drive IMO many authors to making things grimderp ohh taus have re-education camps and sterilaze human even though they actively try to recruit them and manpwoer is their most precious ressource etc... Trench crusade probably wont have a same thing as black libary wheere nummerours authors can add their lore/input so yeah i prefer normal serious also but if the choice is between over the top serious and grimderp OR lighheartly and somewhat "funny" aka unserious, i prefer the later on
@@funfungerman8401 I will agree that 40k does suffer from "too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrome. Does everyone remember when we had backflipping terminators and eldar stealing human vehicles cause they found them better? Yeah. That said, not all these differences conflict with one another, and can have easy explamations. Thats part of why we like the setting, its so vast and open that you can fill in the blanks with your own ideas and get creative. . . just as long as you remember what is just your head canon and not get it confused foe the actual lore.
Not a burn on you and your decision but you can actually play the game. The rules, while in an advanced beta form, are available for free and people have been playing for a bit now. The game is miniature agnostic so you can play with any figures available. There are battle reports and such out. Any changes to the rules will be minor.
He's right about peoples expectations and stuff, anyone calling it a 40k killer doesn't understand it's a totally different game... but I mean it's written by the Mordhiem rules writer so, it's gonna be good ❤
I have a totally different problem with TC and that's why I wasn't interested in backing it. There's no shortage of miniature wargames with compelling backgrounds and awesome minis. More than I can paint in a lifetime. Miniature wargames with awesome rulesets are, on the other hand, in short supply. Unlike modern boardgames, most are pretty old-fashioned, stale, with heavy randomness and long upkeep but obvious decisions and simple gamestates that do not promote player agency or creative problem solving (aka - all I do is move models so that they are closer to enemy models and then we roll dice to see who kills whom). TC doesn't exactly break any trends here. When I saw it has random charges it was an instant turn-off.
The game wasn't his problem it was the lack of in world motivation. It probably just needs a little time to cook. It being a skirmish game doesn't seem to fit with the setting, but I've only skimmed the surface.
@@Raygun9000 Totally agree with you hear. The world not building is thin but his lead arguement of no one can have played it is not entirely correct. I will say most who are raving about the game probably have not played it though.
As I've said elsewhere the final game rules are not out, like literally. The play test rules are, so you're not playing the final product - which was my point in the video. People seems to not understand the difference between beta testing and the final product. The rules may not change a lot in final release, but they will balance out and be changed - I won't want to play it till the process is done so I know I'm playing what the developers intended. Which is why I said we don't have the rules...yet.
Respectfully I don't think it is a world without hope, I think you may just be too materialist/atheist to fully comprehend what inspires the factions. The evil forces are driven by their own pride, pain and hate for God and the good forces are driven by a religious zeal, a love for God. You are right that the land is spoiled, but a true Christian already knows that the physical world is just ash and suffering.
This is probably the best argument against his feelings about the "hopelessness" of Trench Crusades. But I think it's also a problem of explaining this idea. Not even the creators can show that this is why the Christian and Muslim nations are fighting the demons back. And I think that comes back to a misunderstanding of the Abrahamic faiths in the West.
So glad that someone brought this up. I'm a practicing Muslim and an absolute fanatic for wargaming. Trench Crusade should have me by all accounts. The religious aspect of the lore appears to just be a veneer to grimdarkify something very relatable to us all (religious or not). I genuinely hope it succeeds and that everyone invested in the game gets what they want, but for people who are religious, fighting for the holy land, Palestine, the sake of the creator and everything else is a reality, weather in this lifetime or future generations. And more importantly as you've said, the certainty of an afterlife in our paradigm means good deeds and hope are our anchor. Respect to everyone and thanks x
I feel TC is trying to out do 40k in grimdark & edginess i.e. 40k has sisters of battle, so TC has naked nuns covered in blood, just to be edgier & more grimdark.
Definitely feel like while the models and stuff for TC look cool, it does kinda just seem to be grimdark for the sake of being the grimmest of blackest of darkest. At least just from an outside looking in perspective not an ounce of silly or self awareness to be located. Like yeah things are terrible in 40k but we always have orks to remind us to have a giggle every now and then with their antics and bright colors.
I have had this exact issue. TC held little interest for me, with how try hard edgy it was coming across. I love grimdark , but people tend to forget a sense of humor is needed with it. The outpouring of coupe level positivity coming from people about this unreleased game is an even bigger red flag. The fact it got hit with the culture war bs right out the gate didn't help either. I see no reason to bother.
I was curious about this game, but it seemed like it was more interested in being intentionally blasphemous than in actually being an interesting setting. Pretty much turned me away from the start because of that.
I am baffled by this rant and don’t feel your points stacks up in that… I am really enjoying TC, but also 40k (For the past 30 years), this is about games, not corporate competition, anyone flaunting that idea should be ignored as just being silly. Too grim dark, have you seen early 40k it was mental with boobs and flayed bodies all over the place! 40k has been censored and made more palatable purely to sell to a younger audience and for mass market acceptance, which is both a good and a bad thing. Earning a place, products earn their place by the number of units sold, given the kickstarter’s success, which I didn’t back, I’d say they have earned their attention and audience. Originality, 40k is a Dune Universe clone, come on, you know I right. A world worth fighting for? 40k is hell, your either going to be enslaved by the Empire of man, enslaved by chaos or killed xenos, that’s if your not already entombed in a hive being fed corpse starch…I fear you may have a romanticised view of the setting, or just more hope than I do. As to personal preference well I am fully on board and hope you do what you enjoy and enjoy what you do. Happy war gaming and keep on speaking your truth, debate is both healthy and progressive!
I would have preferred if they didn’t use real world religions but maybe just factions inspired by such. I don’t mind too much because most of their interpretations of said factions aren’t too accurate to their irl inspirations so it might as well be fictional. Also there are nations and civilizations within TC, one example would be the sultanate who live behind their giant walls in relative “comfort”and don’t need to eat their populace for food. Most of their lore is found in their discord. I also find it funny that we look over the original warhammer 40k introduction text and the fact that they always remind us how chaos winning is not a matter of if but when. Technically TC would have more hope than 40k since in the end according to the bible, God wins anyway.
"and... and... There's these evil knights and every time they take a step a baby gets teleported to be crushed under their feet ooooooo so grimdark" 🤦♂️
Yeah I really don’t like how overly grim dark it is, even the models don’t look to have any room to even make them less grim dark without some major conversion work
@@thelostlegion7548 40k was a pastiche and satire of 1980s Britain (among other influences). They never set out to be "grimdark" it developed into grimdark. I think as a genre it's easy to go too far and make it derpy.
@@AlexAlex-zt3hi I didn't miss that or forget about it. And that's the cherry on top of this sh!t sundae that will keep me away from it. Looney leftists with the conformist NPC beliefs trying to run wargaming is not really a fun setting. Every blue-haired gamer has to remind you of their pronouns and hatred of anything with the appearance of goodness. If anything, let them build this tower of Babel and all gather about it. It distracts them from other games that they would otherwise involve themselves in and screw up.
Trench Crusade has vibes of Silent Hill meets Shin Megami Tensei meets Warhammer, the artwork is especially grimdark and look like something by John Blanche taken to its inevitable conclusion while the story is humans trying to survive in an apocalyptic war between literal Heaven and Hell, where there's nothing but dragging yourself through one day to make it to the next after the world has ended. The only reason I have nothing to do with TC is because of a group of Femstartes advocates with a huge yaoi pr0n addiction worming their way into the TC community and telling former Warhammer fans "We're gonna gatekeep you from this because we think you're terrible people for not agreeing with our identity politics!" and have gone straight to the creators with this toxic attitude to ensure those trying to escape from real world nonsense can't do that in the game's community. It's why I'd rather get into QUAR instead of TC, I just want to delve into a wargame setting that has people focused on the fictional world instead of the real one in the community, and the Quar actually have something worth fighting for at the end of their Great War in the end.
Trench crusade has just started. Give it time to flesh out it's stories / lore before you belittle it by comparing it to 40yrs of warhammer. There's room for both.
I was looking forward to Trench Crusade but the folks behind it went to act like if GW hired Sweet Baby Inc... I had friends who joined the shared Discord for TC and followed the rules but were banned for "vibes" and for theorizing possible lore for the setting that hasn't been explored yet. In other words they were banned for being regular wargamers. Look deeper into this.
There’s an up and coming skirmish game set in a Bronze Age fantasy setting called “Forsaken Gods” We’re talking Hittite inspired elves, Sea Raiders inspired by “The Sea People” from antiquity. The creator is releasing papercraft minis and rules on his Patreon. Really cheap entry point, and the guy is very responsive to conversation. He’s paid a 3d sculptor to make models that will be available for download in future. Grimdark setting, post apocalyptic flooded world. The elves are cruel beings, who eat humans and rule over a dwindling empire. They themselves destroyed the world, rather than let humanity outnumber them. Of course, their society is degrading, while the Dwarfs and Trolls begin to encroach on land, with no great opposition in sight. There are dwarf minis, trolls, and humans on top of the elf ran human warbands. It’s quite fun so far. And really cheap to get into. I highly recommend it.
There’s a reaction coming. People jumped at this game, then the Discord thing happened, then everyone started to rabidly praise this game either for being a “40K killer” or a way to “own the chuds” (whatever that means nowadays)… And now the KS is over and a good number of people is sobering up and thinking “What was that all about? What did I pledge for?” 😅 I honestly can see myself kitbashing a TC warband and playing with friends, but I fear I’ll feel icky doing it. And that’s not what I want to feel during my precious hobby-time.
@@cronk8219 the obvious 40K influences, the not-too-subtle stabs at Orthodox Christian imagery, people brandishing this game on social media as “a big win over the Right”…
Sci-fi in general attracts a lot of mentally unstable people. You can see your local Games Workshop store regulars or look at a Star Trek convention - lots of socially awkward and depressed people who don't have a lot of other things going on in their life. If you're going to be around these folks to game or experience an event then you're smart to keep them at arm's length.
I am Catholic, and one of the things I like about 40k is the Catholic aesthetic that is woven in to large parts of it. But 40k only uses the aesthetic, not the religion itself. Trench crusade is just absolutely too blasphemous for me.
I’ve gone back and forth on this because Trench Crusade seems much more to be allegorical to WWI, but I am starting to feel it’s a bit too close to the sun for me. You can make a grim dark setting without making every faction horrifying and evil.
I'm religious and other people have written things way worse than this in the past I personally find being religious makes the setting ten times funner
Same as a Catholic myself,almost backed it a couple times and stopped when my conscience got to me. And I will always champion games like Quar and historical wargame/skirmishers.
Trench Crusade is cool and seems quite interesting, but it makes a characateur of grimdark. Everything feels like grimdark for the sake of being grimdark, rather than being grimdark for a justifiable reason.
As someone who has actually played a decent amount of games of Trench Crusade, I can confirm the game itself actually is great. Both the playtest rules and the campaign rules are already out. The game is already in a FULLY playable state and people have been playing it. I have had more fun playing TC within the past 4 weeks than I have playing 40k for 5 years. Warbands are heavily customisable, the factions have recognisable esthetics, and the rules themselves are actually really flavourful, fun and streamlined. Yes, the lore is not perfect and could do with more nuance and character centered stories. But it's barely out of Kickstarter. 40K has the edge on TC because of DECADES of writers building the world from what used to be a tongue-and-cheek silly satire to a vast universe with a lot of good and bad stories. And only until relatively recently has the Imperium been shown as something that can be something worth fighting for. Until relatively recently, the Imperium has been shown as nothing less than a decaying husk of an empire clinging onto life with absolutely no hope of peace or victory. Its people suffer and its leadership hinders its own survival under the weight of its own bureaucracy and superstition. Plus, the dev team have actually SHOWN their good will and competency. Transparency to their community, hiring trusted industry professionals to make the art/lore/gameplay, and even recently, they covered the entire VAT tax for shipping for people getting the rulebook from Kickstarter so they don't have to pay extra.
Yeah the big thing that attracted me to it after seeing the setting and art was most definitely the attitude of the dev team - the devs are extremely active on the Facebook group and Tuomas frequently responds to people's questions on there. I don't really care if the setting is perfect yet, the lore is in it's infancy and I think there's loads of scope to develop it. 40K was barely a coherent narrative when it captivated me as a teenager so I don't think it too wise to jump the gun on TC any more than those over-hyping it are. I see a certain Mr Chambers has been hired to create the setting's first named character so that's certainly got my attention.
@northernexile their was a time and a place where 40k was just about big dudes in armor killing orcs, and their was no story beyond that. I do agree that this religious angle puts a damper in the amount of things they could write, but for a while the same thing could of been said for all sorts of war game. A detective Noir starring a gritty PI in a Hive City was a far flung thought back when space marines were first taking off. I understand the story gripes, but let it cook, i think if they get their cards right and get the right perspectives of the war, their could be some very intriguing stories to come out of TC
@@northernexile So basically you do not like it it you do not add 000000000 zeroes to the number of anything happening. Oh no 60 billion imperial guard died. OH no!! To me 40k became a joke. Just add Zeroes without purpose, nothing matter because 1 ultramarine will kill all 4 chaos gods at the same time. "Limited Scope" = Limited imagination from your part. Look at OUR planet, Look how much shit is happening all around you since 4000 BC.
Honestly, it feels so much like the building blocks of a setting they have how the fighting is done and what sparked it, and why everything is sad in the fight against the darkness however I agree what we need are good books that give of the flicker of a candle of hope against the dark but I think that will take a bit after all 40k started as just an RPG and models and has had decades to build the story to build characters we love and root for and trench crusade deserves the same chance
I Kickstarted at the $85 level for a warband and rulebook, but after ruminating on the game and setting for a while, I don't think the game is for me. It's not the religion or anything, but after painting up a couple Burrows and Badgers miniatures, I think I want my side games to be a bit more whimsical to offset the grimdark 40K.
I'll keep notifications on for this. Personally, I don't like it because its beyond grimdark. Its uncompromisingly bleak & somber, with no variation between the factions. There is nobody fighting against the dying of the light. The light is long gone & there's nothing but wretched vermin feasting on one another in the dark. Everything's horrible, bleak, gory, and abhorrent, with no room for anything else. Other grimdark settings at least have a means of taking a breather in the form of a character or faction that has either a silver lining of hope or comedic relief to it. 40K itself would be a lot more dull if it were just Chaos, Drukhari and Tyranids. Even as one who paints and plays different factions of chaos for the most part.
I think you guys have a really limited understanding of what constitutes grimdark, do you want grimdark or not? Why complain when it's taken straight for once?
@@cjdesantis2131 New Antioch has the Meta-Christs, which are implied to be clones of Christ, that are harvested for flesh and fed to people to make them mutant super-soldiers.
I think the thing with Trench Crusade is ultimately its an unintentionally reactionary product. From what I can gather it started off simply as a few art pieces Mike Franchina was doing in his spare time and simply based on the strength of that art people jumped on it . I think it shows a demand in the community for something that does have a bit more edge. I can see why it appeals to older fans of 40k who maybe feel a little disenfranchised by the current artistic and narrative direction 40k is going in. Which personally I don't think is an awful direction but I can see how it might be jarring for fans who came up with 40k when the setting was a little more grim. The popularity of Trench Crusade definitely demonstrates a bit of a push back. I think their is hope in Trench Crusade it's just quite subtle. I think there is a bit of misunderstanding in regards to the lore that its demons on earth fighting humans. Where as its a bit more nuanced, there are no actual demons on earth or angels at this point in the timeline. As this would kick off Armageddon. Which from what I can understand from the scant lore is something niether side wants. The forces of hell are trying to corrupt all of humanity as opposed to simply wiping everyone out. In this context I think the hope lies in fighting for and preserving the soul of humanity. Which I must admit is presented in rather messed up way in TC but thats the punchline I guess. I think its got a lot of scope going forward and some interesting ideas to explore. There is a lot they could do if they wished to, its just a case of carrying on the momentum they have built off the back of this KS. Is it a Warhammer killer? Of course not, but does it fill a niche that Warhammer has left behind? I'd say so. I don't think TC will have massive broad appeal just based on its subject matter and the fact that its been hardline billed as a game for mature audiences. Which immediately puts them on the back foot in a world that is increasingly PG-13. But I guess thats the point, its kind of the Terrifier of wargames to use a horror movie analogy.
But there are factions that exist and are worth fighting for. There is the Iron Sultanate and New Antioch. Britain is even stated to be holding out against the heretics and demons of hell.
"40k killer" no its not. A competitor, sure why not. Your arguments about the story, comparing a 4 month old game with a 40+ years of lore. Bad take. And limited scope. What limited scope? Its Earth, just Earth. What did you expect? Oh a intergalactic space fighting? This is not 40k. You simply consumed so much 40k over the years that you simply cannot comprehend any story that focuses on a single planet. A single digit. And religious iconography. Why the f not? Hurt some religious feelings? Then pray to god your pain away, you preach so pray and move along.
My problem with Trench Crusade is that the setting will almost surely be compromised, so why invest time into it? At the simplest level, a setting needs a core, inviolable premise, and downstream from that are internally consistent rules that allow the setting to be understood on its own terms. If a setting lacks such internal logic, does it have any real value beyond the initial impression of the aesthetics? Based on the Discord mess and their being close with the 28 Mag crowd, it seems inevitable that someone will demand things that make no sense to the setting in terms of time, culture, or premise, and the setting will almost certainly change bit by bit to accommodate such demands so as to not be seen as offensive, problematic, or what have you. It will inevitably become "Like WWI against Hell... but with the safe sociopolitical views of bourgeois westerners in 202X." Since the implosion into boring safeness seems unavoidable, why bother getting into it now just to be mad later?
@@qtkxtsh2074 YOU want a raceswapped pope... I want a faction of Aramaic-speaking, Ethiopian monks, dragging the Ark of Covenant out of hiding as God's own WMD. We are not the same.
Yeah, can't get into Trench Crusade. A friend of mine let me look over the playtest rules, and I'd not really gotten past the bits of lore before getting bored. As you say, there is a difference between using an aesthetic from a religion as a basis and then making it interesting in the lore like how 40K evolved out of (Milton's Paradise Lost, a bit of Catholic Crusader history, and the secular deification of ideal men turning into a religion in of itself with the Imperial Truth becoming what it set to destroy...), and just blatantly taking actual existing religions and blasphemously taking them out of context with intent to insult.
just say you are offended that its propagating Christian views next time- and yes 40k is the exact same thing just with pretty colours so i guess its alright then lol.
The argument that your making has alot in commentwith the people that complain about cultural appropriation. At least it has more understanding about the source material than most. You don't owe anyone anything and religion doesn't have to be the same in the universe you imagine unironically using the word blasphemous on a game of toy soldiers. I get not liking the world not being worth saving but I'm a chaos player doesn't apply to me.
Ok so I have a lot to say on this (i’ll try to cut it down but no promises haha). So for me this exactly my kind of thing. WWI setting, grim-dark, human religious fanatics having to do things we in our modern world would consider horrific just to be able to survive against a purely evil foe. I like that. At most I wish it wasn’t a skirmish sized game and instead something the size of a 2k point 40k game. Now yes some of the designs are too over-designed (it’s a problem I have with some AoS models) or just too grim dark for the sake of it. As a result it meets that “grim-derp” level of insanity. For me I like having explanations as to why things are the way they are. I ask the question “why is this grim dark thing here in the setting? What is it’s in universe reason for it being here?” So in TC’s case does having these structures looking like that or certain armaments being like they are ember them with holy power &/or protection? Basically give it a reason why it would help said army win. In 40K something that helps the grim dark aspect is that if the armies didn’t do this they’d be secretly weakened to the point where they would be wiped out. The imperium is “justified” in its actions because if it didn’t do these things humanity would be doomed. It makes it more interesting. Problem is that it seems people working in the community don’t want the Christian’s (and possibly the Muslims) in TC to be seen as the “good guys”. Listen if you are fighting the literal forces of Hell especially if you are servicing the Abrahamic God then yes you are the good guys. Your methods may be grimdark but that does not mean you are the good guys. It seems the community doesn’t like people saying that. I think I heard someone say that the Church in TC was just as moral/immoral as the demonic forces. It’s a similar thing (if not the same thing) to what you said about there needing to be a light of hope and a good reason why the setting should be saved. That leads me to my biggest problem with TC and that’s the community. From people saying it’s doing super well and is so popular and anyone being skeptical about that is just a chud and the equivalent of mid century Germans. Then there was the drama of kicking out 40K fans who were checking out TC after GW pulled the Fem Custodes thing. Apparently they also are infighting amongst each other too. It just seems like a rather toxic community from the outside. I can think of some people (especially 1 person in particular) who have been let’s just say rather aggregating and I’ve frankly lost sympathy for when they get crap flung their way since they’ve put themselves out there throwing crap around themselves. There’s more issues with the community but i’ll leave it there. I would like TC to fix the lore issues, the community gets less toxic, and it does well since it does look interesting and has some promise.
No, it is just everything being sloppy, brounish gray and full of blood and bloody boils/tumors . Playing as a chaos is cool and damned and dramatic when you oppose someone in clean and shiny armour, not another flavor of Nurgle force with trinkets of different fashion
In other words, feeling bad evil guys would be much more contrasted, if trench priest had less freshly severed hands between icons and golden crosses, it is just ridiculous at this point]
@@Vladislavaklymait sounds like you’re disagreeing with me on something but idk what. I will at least agree that the church having nicer looking armor (well nice enough for a warrior who lives and fights in WWI trenches since they will look dirty. I don’t know what you mean by “feeling bad evil guys”. I will say though that I did mention I wanted a reason for the grim dark stuff. Having the golden crosses give holy protection would help. Having the hands nailed to a shield or something be the hands of saints, war heroes, martyrs, etc and they are nailed like Jesus’s hands would be nailed provides holy power. That sort of thing I want to see so it “justifies” why the grim dark stuff is done. That last point about it being weird and strange to see yourself as a savior or humankind when you’re a walking temple with a lamb hanging from it. Again I’d want to why that is the way it is and how it helps humanity survive. Remember the Imperium has even more screwed up stuff in it and they saviors of mankind. That’s just how grim dark works. The good guys many times will do morally grey or straight up evil things so good can eventually prevail Also why break your comment up like that? If you made those comments at different times you could’ve edited your original comment each time to include the new stuff
@caspianbchalphy ah, I actually cut the message so it is the opposite, more easy to answer to the specific point without copying/mentioning it. I say it from the point of view of generally chaos /skaven/whatever evil fraction the setting provides type of player -- and for me big part of the fun is having distinct darkish aesthetics, to show these clean warriors of light, that they could be stained as well. But in TC everyone is the same level of violence and harshness and having bloody tumors all over the body. You cannot stain someone, who probably same amount of atrocities you did.
@@Daemonik So, because word got out about TC around the time GW crapped the bed with the Custodes codex, some 40k people saw the art and were keen on learning more. They join the Discord, which is run by the publishers Mag28. The discord mods begin banning people they know from 40k circles, people suggesting new factions in ways they didn't like (e.g. the Aztecs being allied with demons), and they ban people disagreeing with far Left talking points coming from other members of the discord. Then when people start noticing and going "hey what gives?" they claim they banned them for "bad vibes" and banned those asking questions. Given the TC devs were not technically responsible they were called on to disavow Mag28's bias and discrimination. They refused to do so. Then they made their own Discord server and modded a notorious harasser, clout goblin and lolcow that keeps the membership ideologically pure.
@@Deefry Ugh. Thanks. I like to be a drama-free zone with my hobby time. Doesn't put me off trying the _game_ with people I already know, but if that's the official community it certainly puts me off that.
Im sorry Warhammer is not worth saving at all , it is an incredibly hideous world. You just want to hate other grimdark out there , wish is silly to me. I am excited because I always have wanted to get into the hobby , also love the flexibility they are offering and lets be honest many of us missed the Warhammer boat , no it is very expensive to get into it. I just find your excuses not good.
the moment the makers said "The devil isn't really a bad guy" I was immediately over it, God himself shows up and the bible and religion is proven for a fact unequivocally and the devil isn't the bad guy.....yeah sorry no thanks, you cannot convince me the father of lies who hates god and humanity because he couldn't usurp god is "Misunderstood" and god isn't the good guy.
@malal6512 To be brutally honest, that sounds like a fucking joke taken out of context. If Franchina was being 100% serious, that could also indicate that the direction of TC has moved AWAY from this idea - given it was an Early interview
I have a lot of hope for the game and have pledge towards their kick starter because even if the game turns out to be a let down I love the models so hobby side I’m excited, I have also made a little backstory for my own team they’re based on an island called Haven’s Light it’s a safe place for people that have become refugees due to the war so there’s a mix of people from different backgrounds that have come together it’s a truly good place within the dark world that is trench crusade. I’m also religious myself and don’t take any offence personally from the setting I know it’s not a real thing it’s fantasy and if anything my religious background has helped motivate me in creating the story for my own team within such a dark world
Oooh, someone formulated my issue with lore. Also , this relates to art too- the lower level units are awesome, but starting from highmid-high ranj they all becoming meatgrind blobs that just are meat and blood for more meat and blood(yes Seven Headed Serpent post warlock unit, I am talking about you)
cant play it the lore is very much a jab at templars and christanity itself how i know the devs said it was satire on christanity but deleted the message minutes later and left me replused
Relatable narrative is the foundation of all these products and makes or breaks them. No mother is going to buy her little boy a trench crusade box. Many will buy them Warhammer boxes.
I don't think the creators ever intended it to be a product for children. Plus given their stance on kitbashing and 3D printing. It doesn't appear they're all that concerned with selling minis
24:50 You reminded me of the first Skulduggery Pleasant book for a moment. "And he's the good guy!" it says about a pinstripe-suited skeleton wielding elemental magic.
So if they released just the rules as is (the play test rules) it’s already a decent game. Me and my gaming group have already played several games and are planning a campaign in the new year. The pros are, alternate activation, low model count, fast paced, model agnostic. Cons nothing model wise available to buy, too much freedom ?
The lore isn’t a big deal to me but imagery is, a ww1/ww2 fantasy setting just appeals to me. The use of Christianity isn’t an issue for me but I can see why believers may take issue.
I've been getting into the lore recently and really like it so far. As a Grey Knight lover the Paladins in Trench Crusade appeal to me, Over powered Knights that go into the depths of Hell to slay daemons and anything else they come across.
Everyone is of course free to enjoy and do what they like but I’m not really down with a game that mocks the King of Kings Jesus Christ. I wouldn’t play a game that treated my mother in a disrespectful manner so I’m not going to play one that treats my Lord and Savior that way. Cheers.
@Dram1984 Sure but TC lore also portrays that as a Bad thing... Like, the church are deeply Heretical and that's the reason it's a Grimdark setting. I don't believe it's sacrilegious or disrespectful and don't see where you're coming from
@ I’ll admit I didn’t look super deep, just saw stuff about people eating the flesh of a clone of Christ to get super powers and a bunch of other stuff and decided it wasn’t for me. You don’t have to agree, I’m not the Pope or anything. :) It’s just treating things that are real and sacred as fodder for a game doesn’t sit well with me. If it doesn’t bother you that’s cool.
@Dram1984 As a fan I think it's super well researched and just going down the similar route of "what if everything went horribly wrong" that 40k does. Plenty of ppl don't like 40k either tho, so we'll agree that both Trench Crusade and 40k is for ANYONE lol ;)
Id like to see another video on your thoughts of other tabletop games like a song of ice and fire, parabellums conquest, privateer press' warmachine, etc.
I've not looked at TC super-deep, primarily because it's not yet a finished product. I'd rather see what it is when it's "ready". Kinda like when that Wolverine movie was leaked before adding the effects - i waited until the finished movie was available. From what i know (again, isn't much) I agreed with North more than i expected to. It struck me as "Krieg: The 15 generation endless war. Now with daemons!" and seemed to be trying a little too hard. But that may well be just the people i've talked to about it. I know a few people who are excited to try it out, and probably will myself when it's ready. If the mechanics are good, i can quite happily play and just not get into the lore element if that doesn't appeal. We'll see, but i have a feeling it won't be for me in terms of story. But that's absolutely fine. Lots of things are not for me. Doesn't reflect badly on the game. Hopefully it will be good and do well, and offer those people it does appeal to another option to play toy soldiers.
You just missed out on the big launch dude. It just happened. Look it up they have huge lines of models and stuff now. It will all start to go on sale next year from what they are saying on the kickstarter posts to those of us who pledged.
@@matt6387That's cool. I wasn't interested enough to buy at this point. I played quite a few games of BA before buying it. I'm in absolutely no rush. I'll try it with someone who has it, and see what I think from there.
this is one hell of a miss. New Antioch is that kingdom that does grim, hard things to keep the world safe. the rest of Europe is embattled against the forces of Hell to varying degrees, but it’s not their fault. that’s not even taking into account the potential for the rest of the world! the sultanate of the iron wall is a peaceful, prosperous place, a virtuous kingdom defending the faithful from the worst of the forces of hell. plus, the community has been active in kicking out nazis in a way that warhammer hasn’t, so that’s always a plus.
I played an early game a few months ago, and read the lore they had - it was pretty clear from early on that it’s just a clone of 40k. They simply took all the surface level details of 40k and changed little details about them, without the depth behind them.
I think you may wanna take a step back on this, I fear you looked at the art and decided it's too grimdark. The lore has plenty of reasons to fight in it and it's too young a setting to make calls on this stuff
Wasnt there another scifi steampunk game that was also suppose to be a 40k killer? Warmachine i think it was called? It kinda got decent sized then kinda went quite
They made a bunch of bad descisions, iirc they even did the equivleent of discontinuing every army when they went to their 4th editions. Shame, i loved Warmachine back in the day.
I like the idea of a skirmish game that focuses on kit-bashing and had a progressive campaign model. I like the play test rules as they currently are. I don't think the religious/edgy stuff needs to be present on your own models if you don't want them to be. I don't disagree, entirely, with what North's saying, or the other comments. I would like the game to offer me a good hobby time regardless, and I think that's what it's going to do for me. Will it be forever? No, I doubt it, but it'll be fun to dip into when the mood takes me.
Grimdark doesn't need hope in order to work. One of my favorite writers is Wayne Barlow, he wrote two books about hell and the demons who live their, their daily lives, the constant wars against major demons over territory and resources. I love that kind of setting, mainly because it's a examination of once noble fallen angels and their mental adjustment and acceptance of their fall from grace, the culture that rises from their damnation, the different ways they deal with being the losers. The time for hope has passed and if written well it honestly makes things so much more interesting. I never focused on a world worth saving with 40k. I was too interested in the worlds that were damned. The early days of Rogue Trader were a fav in terms of style and setting to me because I didn't feel like the imperium were good guys and everyone was just killing everybody for whatever their own reasons were. Maybe the imperium were the good guys but it didn't really ever matter to me. That's why I hate most new 40k stuff. It's pushing this stupid "noble dark" crap. I think 40k was more interesting if GW had the balls to kill off the emperor and have the rest of the series just be humanity's rage against the dying of the light. Dark Souls is another example of a world that can't be saved, it makes a far more interesting story when we actually let the light extinguish instead of clinging onto a age that is already dead.
Barlow's Inferno. I used to own a copy. I loved his guides to Extraterrestrials and Fantasy. For the longest time I didn't realize he designed all the creatures for Avatar.
Looks really cool to me, as I love skirmish games, and rules are written by gaming heavyweights. Im response to some comments: Who cares what the discord communities are like, make your own, the rules are literally free online. I understand some people might find it distasteful, but 40k is pretty distasteful too
I like ya north, but you have a bad habit of espousing your opinions as facts. To say that trench crusade is too dark, and the imperium isnt, is nuts. Youre saying the people that feed civilians corpse starch and servitorize innocents and criminals alike, arent too grimdark? Cmon man. You dont seem to have a problem with 40k penitent engines, but trench crusade is too much? I can agree with your opening points but once you go into that rant speaking as if your feelings are the facts, well thats where i have a problem.
Too be fair, the things you mentioned about the Imperium are dependent on the planet. The Imperium has paradise worlds for example. Penitent engines are also part of 1 faction, not the entire Imperium or all its armies.
I'm not sure how you say this when I literally preface all videos like this with 'this is just my opinion', but there we are. If I am forceful about sharing those opinions - that is literally why you are here mate. This is a UA-cam channel.
I find the majority of people who say the setting in 40K isn't grimdark enough are usually cherry picking the brighter moments - while there are certainly more of these at times you would be hard-pressed to find a recent narrative in 40K that didn't have a lot of very dark material at some point in the story. There's little evidence that the horrors of 2nd and 3rd edition Imperium aren't being visited upon it's subjects on a regular basis in the timeline of 10th edition. There's just a bit more focus on the "heroes" too.
@northernexile you're inconsistent in your opinions, wishy washy. You say things like, "40k has lost its edge, 3rd ed was better," but then, "trench crusade is too grimdark." Well then, what do you want? And you're right, I am here to listen to your opinions. But you flip flop when it's convenient, and that is why I'm coming less and less to hear your opinions.
@@delsinmunroe5067 I dunno though it's quite nice to see a video for once that doesn't randomly bring divorced dad energy in for an unscheduled 10 minute rant about women.
I think you missed a massive portion of the lore mate, Europe, for the most part, is mostly peaceful. Sure there are heretic incursions but thats not the norm. Thats why New Antioch has The Tithe, whether it be men, material, food whatever because the majority of the fighting is in the Levant. So yeah, there is hope and something worth fighting for.
Why not homebrew your own warband like a new antioch or sultinat and trench pilgrims and make narrated battle where you have to save civilians or protect holy artifacts and sits reclaiming sometimes important for the war effort can you not right a story like fan fiction that fits in the lore the possibilitys are endless .Oh one thing i heard gamza said something about grimdark being hard to writeing and needs to be written professionally in my opinion i think his right on the writeing grimdark is hard but professionally I dont think it's that level of difficulty thats just my opinion i wander what is yours im curious
I've had similar thoughts with Trench Crusade. Sure, the grim dark is awesome, but there still needs to be hope somewhere and something to achieve. And, from what I get and understand from the lore, heaven does not sound like a place in that universe I want to go to, it could even be worse than hell for all we know!
Oh no people mad that not everyone likes the new thing that will lose most of its players within two years oh no... Anyway how is everyone. I like the idea of TC myself played the beta rules since they were out they are fine pretty good fun but it is a niche in a niche hobby.
Thanks for putting into words what I have felt about the setting. We already decided to try Trench Crusade in my game group. And I chose The Iron Sultanate precisely because they have something left to protect behind their walls.
NEWS ALERT: Trench Crusades’ online Moderators BANNED 40k fans, who migrated over after the Fem Custodes / Woke drama… They called us ALL FASCISTS, & perma banned…
I like it because it has an eastern european feel. Also 1000 years of history of my part of the world shows me that there is no such thing as worth and that there is no such thing as "too grim dark". And questions like why are you fighting for a +1000 years, what is it for. Is an odd one. We fight?, because as long as we do the other side doesn't win. We also fought wars of faith for +600 years. If we didn't fight we would be gone cenuries ago. When l think of Smolensk , l think of the 27 battles and sieges in its histories . The battles of Kiev , the breaking/defendin of the fords on the river Prypeć. It is non stop war. Also don't think the game has much overlap with games made by GW. Closest to it are the WWll games made by Warlord. And even those don't really do trench warfare. Also the humanity is good thing does not work in places where there is war every 25-30 years and a large one every 25-50.
I hope Trench Crusade succeeds because I genuinely like the foundation of their settings. The religious iconography and themes don’t bother me at all given that 40K is far worse in heretical themes such as a secular emperor who is deemed god, who wiped out religion on Terra. That being said, I absolutely appreciate these valid critiques about the setting of Trench Crusade.
I don't think I really need any lore besides what is necessary to tie my collection together. Of course there is also the idea that there is a whole hemisphere we know little of that might be "normal", or even that the lack of hope is meant to be an ironic joke or lesson for civilisation, that there is a path of no hope, with nothing to live for, but we believe there is something there anyway. At the very least, there is a Heaven and Hell, so if you don't fight (and especially if you top yourself!) you are liable to end up in Hell; so the ultimate goal may not lie on this side of life, but on the other. "Earn your place in Heaven by sending pagans to Hell!" Terry Jones presents: The Crusades. Otherwise, particularly cool minis and artwork, so I invested. It's all the lore I need.
You do know people have been playing this for a year, right? The rules are out for free, so people know what it is. I don't think anyone saying "it's going to be good" means "it's going to outsell warhammer". It's mostly a skirmish campaign game. You can tell it was made by a Mordheim designer.
I agree with many of your thoughts. Currently, the gameplay I have seen doesnt get me excited. However the aesthetic, the lore, the potential has me extremely excited.
Howdy, I think I’m one of those ravenous TC fans has been annoyingly commenting on everything, sry. Personally I’m a lore and model guy, I hope the rules are fun but I have 3 40K arms and knight and I have literally never played a game. Currently lore is up in the air I think before we make a real judgment on lore we have to wait for at least one book because we don’t have really any characters right now we just have historical figures and events. They need time to cook I’ll make a judgment then. The only thing I think I really disagree with you on is the idea that there’s no hope in the setting. we know that new Antioch, the Roman empire, Brittania, and the sultanate all have real societies with real human beings that they’re defending. Maybe this is because I grew up around lotta Christians but you’re not fighting for the world, you’re fighting for people with immortal souls and a heavenly kingdom. so I don’t get the point that “peoples lives suck so what’s the point”, the point is you’re fighting against metaphysical evil in service of divine love and goodness. Criticism is in good spirit I ❤️ ur content
A friend of mine that plays 40k that are more leaned towards historicals would never play something like trench crusade. I really like trench crusade because it is the grimdark we can have currently. If the religion stuff bothers you, try forbidden psalm the last war. It has the grimdark and the ww1 just dont have the religious stuff.
I said we don't have the final game rules yet...and we don't. You are playing the Playtest Rules - TC literally call them that. This is like playing Cyberpunk 2077 in 2018, two years before it came out, and then telling people you've played the finished game - you haven't.
I think you are spot on North, I feel from a lore perspective Trech crusade is pretty 1 dimensional. I don't even play 40k and I know Trench Crusade is not even out yet, but I can get lost for Hours in Warhammer 40k lore (there is still 30k lore beyond that) I read all the lore and watched a bunch of videos on Trench Crusade and felt huh that's it? ok, and went back to reading 40k lore. Also, I prefer the more abstract religion of 40k than the spot on the nose, Trench Crusade real world (well sort of since they put the Templar in the wrong time period all together) use of religion from Trench Crusade.
I see in Trench Crusade the same failings as the brown and grey Uber serious games of the 2000s. 40k is awash in color which helps characters stand out but also helps inspire artists who will be painting the minis that keep the hobby alive. If I painted an army for trench crusade I’d get bored of greys and browns with 1 piece a different color really quickly.
Someone finally said it. I have a bunch of mates going balls deep because "fuck GW" even though they print everything anyway. I like the lore and all, but it's just another game system. Also I keep seeing people say 40k is copying trench crusade now 😅
I wrote a story about an Egyptian version of trench crusade that use catholic and hindeuo history and legends as villains cavillations as well with the main human empire using Egypt and gothic to add a mixed flavor, 40k has the imperium mixed with all types of human culture to show all of humanity's art radiant beauty it adds nuance and to have those cultures both aesthetic and cultural values to the create interesting interaction especially in an empire lead under one flag it creates conflict, peace, new ways of thinking. Thats why I like 40k its diverse in the right way and like you said it creates hope each of these cultures have their own perspective on the world Thuse will have more degrees of hope being found and spawned.
Totally agree with your points, Northern. I feel the same about some survival horror settings, where I think I would rather just die than struggle to live on through an endless hell with no future.
I absolutely agree with you that Trench Crusade isn't for me. For me it's being overhyped just like OPR is - for me it'll take more than just "this is new and anti-GW" to get me away from the intricate world (or galaxy) I've grown attached to. On top of that, as a Christian, some of the ways they're portraying Christianity raises a few red flags in my eyes, especially when you hear about the weird woke stuff that's happened on their discord server that makes it sound like this is a way for them to crap on the religion again, and of course I don't want to give any woke stuff my money.
I have a few issues with the game. 1. The world is built for a medium-large army game, skirmish just doesn’t cut it. 2. The world doesn’t incorporate enough Christian Religious Events. The fact that Christianity is still united under a Catholic dogma ignores a major sect: Protestantism. 3. They wrote themselves into a hole. Because they didn’t leave threads to Protestantism, or other strong demons beyond Beezey, whatever army they design next will feel like a Slaanesh asspull “I was always here the whole time”, which is fine for demons, but unrealistic for the “forces of God”
I totally agree with you - I hope it does really well but the setting and the story is kind of a bummer... I get that its grim dark but where 40k shines is how it constantly betrays grim dark with colorful and fantastic characters, hilarious situations... The irony that the god of secrets has the most colourful and noticeable demons. In 40k there is this very strong dichotomy between ridiculously over powered soldiers in overly colorful armor with over the top plumage and unnecessary designs and iconography in contrast to the "grim dark" part where billions and trillions of people are getting exterminatis and life is so horrible and unimaginable... It's like shocking when it gets really dark. Art it all about contrast, and the dark only feels dark because there are bright colors to compare to. Im not from the UK, im Canadian, but what I think 40k does very well is that the Grim dark thing is serious like 20% of the time and that 20% is so absurd and horrifying, but the rest of that 80% is AAA sci-fi fantasy mixed with very funny dry UK kinda humor taking the piss out of the absurdity of real world western civilization and government. Its a social commentary... In Trench Crusade in comparison seems way too serious and brown and just frickin ugly shelled out mud, no fantastical primearchs, no gothic architecture, no butresses, just flat grinding death.
As someone who has played trench crusade and has found it to be pretty fun I’d agree with you that it is not a 40K killer in my opinion I think it can compete in the space but people hyping it up that much are a bit delusional. I don’t have an issue with you not liking trench crusade as it’s not for everyone, but I find your reasoning weird as to why. You say you read the lore that is available right now but I’m not sure how you could come to the conclusion that there isn’t anything worth fighting for as you put it. Is fighting against the forces of hell not worth fighting for? The iron sultanate defending their Great Wall so that their population isn’t killed or turned into daemon food, is that not enough stakes? I’m beginning to think you skimmed over the introduction to trench crusade and formed a whole opinion off of that.
To put it as succinctly as I can - The Imperium is a LOT better than Chaos, like infinitely better for the most part (surprising, I know)
New Antioch, Iron Sultanate and other powers of order in Trench Crusade are basically Diet Hell. They are so bad and despotic that you may as well be fighting for the other side. That was my point, if there is no hope at all, why are we bothering?
@ I would agree with on the point of the imperium having the moral high ground on chaos I don’t think that is up for debate. From my reading of the lore the “good guys” being new Antioch, the sultanate, and trench pilgrims are miles better than the forces of hell. Sure they do horrific shit but I haven’t found anything that exceeds stuff like servitors, or living in a hive city levels of bad. If you can give me an example of something that out does the imperium I’d love to be proven wrong. I also don’t find the world of trench crusade any less hopeless than 40K, victory over hell is possible but it’s a war game setting so things have to be somewhat bleak and endless so we can have a game in the first place.
@@cactusproductions6531 in 40k there are places where that doesn't happen. None of that happens; the story doesn't focus on them because that would be boring, but there are places in the Imperium that would, objectively, be a good place to live. They are few and far between and with each day there are less and less of them, but they still exist.
I think the real 40k killer was FLG
“Until you find something to fight for, you settle for something to fight against.”
― chuck palahniuk
Fighting against something isn't like fighting for something; you don't fight the forces of Hell just for the sake of doing so, you do it because you have loved ones back home who, should they be taken, will have their corpses defiled by the evil things in ways you can't even imagine.
As a 52 year old Rogue Trader player I welcome the uber-grimdark setting. GW has distanced the more 'problematic' things from the current 40k setting making it more noblebright than anything (particularly the imperium). The usage of religious themes is present in 40k, BUT, I do undersrtand that people of a religious persuasion will be uneasy at best about the trench crusade setting (I'm not particularly happy about the Templars yet again being the bad guys who started it all, despite the IRL historical facts pointing to the fact that they weren't the bad guys). The darkness of the setting appeals to the gen X in me I guess.
As a fellow Gen X RT vet, I feel ya.
This is why templars are looked at like this. The Templars were accused of blasphemy and blamed for Crusader failures. In 1307, French officials arrested all Templars in the country. The Templars were tortured into confessing to sinful and criminal behavior, and many were burned at the stake. The Pope formally dissolved the order in 1312.
The idea of religious warriors in modern terms is seen only as bad or sinister. This is why it is used like this and the name was tarnished for all history because of these events.
Be vigilant,be pure...BEHAVE.
@@matt6387 While this all is true, this doesn't translate into comfortable environment for playing with other people. I would be considered a religious zealot by nearly everyone but I don't mix any of them with my gaming because they're two entirely different things. I enjoy the gaming and modeling to escape this world not find a new way to bring it into my life.
Doesn't anyone think this setting is just going to provoke heated arguments? At least with fictional settings and imaginary characters, there's not a lot to get worked up over.
Why would it provoke any arguments? It IS a fictional setting with clearly fictional religion(s) that only have a passing superficial resemblance to real life Christianity.
I think you missed the plot on this one. Especially when you say there is nothing to fight for. New Antioch exists because kingdoms protected by it send tribute to keep it standing. If there is a front then that means there is a place behind the front that is separated from all the craziness. I do agree that it doesn't have enough lore yet, but I absolutely disagree that there isn't anything worth saving in that world.
agreed, there is actual signs of hope in the universe just covered by constant war. Im not sure what he met by nothing to fight for as if the "good" factions didn't have any civilization outside of combat.
@@deliriousaquarius5799 I would say 40k suffers from this as well at least with the imperium
I'd say that's the problem with a lot of war games. All the writing and focus goes into the Infinite war and everything behind the front gets left as an afterthought. It becomes easy to assume that it's just War for war's sake. War without reason.
This entire video I kept thinking "does he even know about New Antioch? You know, the IMPERIUM EQUIVALENT?"
@@conwaysquest6961 True, the civilian populace in wargames only gets brought up when the conflicts reach civilian areas (See Dropzone Commander for example).
At this point the only true "Warhammer Killer" is Games Workshop.
At the end of the day, Trench Crusade will be talked about allot and then will be religated to the "adult" wargames like Forbidden Pslams. And we'll move on to another game from a old GW designer.
And then we find ourselves that "old gw designers" actually joined in AoS era , and think grimdark is just more grit and blood 😊
Fully understandable. I don't like it either but for different reason: The community being very politically charged. I think it's because of all the christian and satanist iconography, which attracts the kind of people that are like those unsavoury people (like THAT ONE chaos player) in 40k that desperately try to convince you on why you shouldn't like anything the imperium does. What I'm getting at is that this series seems to attract the "that will show the christians" and "media literacy"-crowds. Also the early community got baptized by fire with a whole lot political drama. For me this would be a bad sign for every game system let alone one that is in his infancy
I imagine some of the less savoury elements of those communities will be turned off Trench Crusade by having the Islamic faction among the good guys.
As an orthodox Christian, the themes and models in trench crusade are a little too much for me. But that’s just me
It's not just you
Same
Same for me as well
Same
Yeah. It's pretty on the nose.
TC is weird. It tries to be tryhard, serious, and gritty. But also the people behind it don't take it seriously at all
How I look at it, if they won’t take it seriously why should I
so like wh40k?
you either have people that take everything 100% serious or the complete opposite
and the ones that take it 100% serious (fans and writes alike) are the reason whe have grimderp...
i tbh prefer the not so serious approach
@@funfungerman8401
I prefer it when the writers take the setting serious up to a point.
That’s not to say you can’t have your silly or over the top moments, but have respect for your creation and the audience.
In a way, I want consistency in the tone and writing.
Leave the shit posting and memes to the fans.
@@bc9402 Most authors dont communicate with each other and you then get Literally complete different facts about lore thingys
also the fans drive IMO many authors to making things grimderp
ohh taus have re-education camps and sterilaze human even though they actively try to recruit them and manpwoer is their most precious ressource etc...
Trench crusade probably wont have a same thing as black libary wheere nummerours authors can add their lore/input
so yeah i prefer normal serious also but if the choice is between over the top serious and grimderp OR lighheartly and somewhat "funny" aka unserious, i prefer the later on
@@funfungerman8401
I will agree that 40k does suffer from "too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrome.
Does everyone remember when we had backflipping terminators and eldar stealing human vehicles cause they found them better?
Yeah. That said, not all these differences conflict with one another, and can have easy explamations. Thats part of why we like the setting, its so vast and open that you can fill in the blanks with your own ideas and get creative. . . just as long as you remember what is just your head canon and not get it confused foe the actual lore.
Not a burn on you and your decision but you can actually play the game. The rules, while in an advanced beta form, are available for free and people have been playing for a bit now. The game is miniature agnostic so you can play with any figures available. There are battle reports and such out. Any changes to the rules will be minor.
He's right about peoples expectations and stuff, anyone calling it a 40k killer doesn't understand it's a totally different game... but I mean it's written by the Mordhiem rules writer so, it's gonna be good ❤
I have a totally different problem with TC and that's why I wasn't interested in backing it.
There's no shortage of miniature wargames with compelling backgrounds and awesome minis. More than I can paint in a lifetime.
Miniature wargames with awesome rulesets are, on the other hand, in short supply. Unlike modern boardgames, most are pretty old-fashioned, stale, with heavy randomness and long upkeep but obvious decisions and simple gamestates that do not promote player agency or creative problem solving (aka - all I do is move models so that they are closer to enemy models and then we roll dice to see who kills whom).
TC doesn't exactly break any trends here. When I saw it has random charges it was an instant turn-off.
The game wasn't his problem it was the lack of in world motivation. It probably just needs a little time to cook. It being a skirmish game doesn't seem to fit with the setting, but I've only skimmed the surface.
@@Raygun9000 Totally agree with you hear. The world not building is thin but his lead arguement of no one can have played it is not entirely correct. I will say most who are raving about the game probably have not played it though.
As I've said elsewhere the final game rules are not out, like literally. The play test rules are, so you're not playing the final product - which was my point in the video. People seems to not understand the difference between beta testing and the final product. The rules may not change a lot in final release, but they will balance out and be changed - I won't want to play it till the process is done so I know I'm playing what the developers intended. Which is why I said we don't have the rules...yet.
Respectfully I don't think it is a world without hope, I think you may just be too materialist/atheist to fully comprehend what inspires the factions. The evil forces are driven by their own pride, pain and hate for God and the good forces are driven by a religious zeal, a love for God. You are right that the land is spoiled, but a true Christian already knows that the physical world is just ash and suffering.
This is probably the best argument against his feelings about the "hopelessness" of Trench Crusades.
But I think it's also a problem of explaining this idea. Not even the creators can show that this is why the Christian and Muslim nations are fighting the demons back. And I think that comes back to a misunderstanding of the Abrahamic faiths in the West.
So glad that someone brought this up. I'm a practicing Muslim and an absolute fanatic for wargaming. Trench Crusade should have me by all accounts. The religious aspect of the lore appears to just be a veneer to grimdarkify something very relatable to us all (religious or not).
I genuinely hope it succeeds and that everyone invested in the game gets what they want, but for people who are religious, fighting for the holy land, Palestine, the sake of the creator and everything else is a reality, weather in this lifetime or future generations. And more importantly as you've said, the certainty of an afterlife in our paradigm means good deeds and hope are our anchor.
Respect to everyone and thanks x
I feel TC is trying to out do 40k in grimdark & edginess i.e. 40k has sisters of battle, so TC has naked nuns covered in blood, just to be edgier & more grimdark.
Wait until you get a load of the prophetic tacticians.
Definitely feel like while the models and stuff for TC look cool, it does kinda just seem to be grimdark for the sake of being the grimmest of blackest of darkest. At least just from an outside looking in perspective not an ounce of silly or self awareness to be located. Like yeah things are terrible in 40k but we always have orks to remind us to have a giggle every now and then with their antics and bright colors.
I have had this exact issue. TC held little interest for me, with how try hard edgy it was coming across. I love grimdark , but people tend to forget a sense of humor is needed with it.
The outpouring of coupe level positivity coming from people about this unreleased game is an even bigger red flag. The fact it got hit with the culture war bs right out the gate didn't help either. I see no reason to bother.
I was curious about this game, but it seemed like it was more interested in being intentionally blasphemous than in actually being an interesting setting. Pretty much turned me away from the start because of that.
For me, it's the Sanguinius speech during the seige of Terra that sums up why the Imperium is worth fighting for.
I am baffled by this rant and don’t feel your points stacks up in that…
I am really enjoying TC, but also
40k (For the past 30 years), this is about games, not corporate competition, anyone flaunting that idea should be ignored as just being silly.
Too grim dark, have you seen early 40k it was mental with boobs and flayed bodies all over the place! 40k has been censored and made more palatable purely to sell to a younger audience and for mass market acceptance, which is both a good and a bad thing.
Earning a place, products earn their place by the number of units sold, given the kickstarter’s success, which I didn’t back, I’d say they have earned their attention and audience.
Originality, 40k is a Dune Universe clone, come on, you know I right.
A world worth fighting for? 40k is hell, your either going to be enslaved by the Empire of man, enslaved by chaos or killed xenos, that’s if your not already entombed in a hive being fed corpse starch…I fear you may have a romanticised view of the setting, or just more hope than I do.
As to personal preference well I am fully on board and hope you do what you enjoy and enjoy what you do.
Happy war gaming and keep on speaking your truth, debate is both healthy and progressive!
I would have preferred if they didn’t use real world religions but maybe just factions inspired by such. I don’t mind too much because most of their interpretations of said factions aren’t too accurate to their irl inspirations so it might as well be fictional.
Also there are nations and civilizations within TC, one example would be the sultanate who live behind their giant walls in relative “comfort”and don’t need to eat their populace for food. Most of their lore is found in their discord.
I also find it funny that we look over the original warhammer 40k introduction text and the fact that they always remind us how chaos winning is not a matter of if but when.
Technically TC would have more hope than 40k since in the end according to the bible, God wins anyway.
The issue with Trench Crusade imo is that it's edginess for the sake of edginess. It's Grimderp instead of Grimdark.
You were more generous with the lore than I was. I hate it. It's like it was written by a reddit atheist
"and... and... There's these evil knights and every time they take a step a baby gets teleported to be crushed under their feet ooooooo so grimdark" 🤦♂️
Yeah I really don’t like how overly grim dark it is, even the models don’t look to have any room to even make them less grim dark without some major conversion work
@@thelostlegion7548 40k was a pastiche and satire of 1980s Britain (among other influences). They never set out to be "grimdark" it developed into grimdark. I think as a genre it's easy to go too far and make it derpy.
did you miss out they were saying "right" wasnt welcomed into their game?
@@AlexAlex-zt3hi I didn't miss that or forget about it. And that's the cherry on top of this sh!t sundae that will keep me away from it. Looney leftists with the conformist NPC beliefs trying to run wargaming is not really a fun setting. Every blue-haired gamer has to remind you of their pronouns and hatred of anything with the appearance of goodness.
If anything, let them build this tower of Babel and all gather about it. It distracts them from other games that they would otherwise involve themselves in and screw up.
Trench Crusade has vibes of Silent Hill meets Shin Megami Tensei meets Warhammer, the artwork is especially grimdark and look like something by John Blanche taken to its inevitable conclusion while the story is humans trying to survive in an apocalyptic war between literal Heaven and Hell, where there's nothing but dragging yourself through one day to make it to the next after the world has ended.
The only reason I have nothing to do with TC is because of a group of Femstartes advocates with a huge yaoi pr0n addiction worming their way into the TC community and telling former Warhammer fans "We're gonna gatekeep you from this because we think you're terrible people for not agreeing with our identity politics!" and have gone straight to the creators with this toxic attitude to ensure those trying to escape from real world nonsense can't do that in the game's community.
It's why I'd rather get into QUAR instead of TC, I just want to delve into a wargame setting that has people focused on the fictional world instead of the real one in the community, and the Quar actually have something worth fighting for at the end of their Great War in the end.
Trench crusade has just started. Give it time to flesh out it's stories / lore before you belittle it by comparing it to 40yrs of warhammer. There's room for both.
I was looking forward to Trench Crusade but the folks behind it went to act like if GW hired Sweet Baby Inc...
I had friends who joined the shared Discord for TC and followed the rules but were banned for "vibes" and for theorizing possible lore for the setting that hasn't been explored yet.
In other words they were banned for being regular wargamers.
Look deeper into this.
I lost interest that day when TC admins banned all people on discord who did not like the lghdtv propaganda in the aftermath of female custodes
I'am 100% with you north, like I said on the discord it seems like it's grimdark just to be grimdark.
There’s an up and coming skirmish game set in a Bronze Age fantasy setting called “Forsaken Gods”
We’re talking Hittite inspired elves, Sea Raiders inspired by “The Sea People” from antiquity.
The creator is releasing papercraft minis and rules on his Patreon. Really cheap entry point, and the guy is very responsive to conversation.
He’s paid a 3d sculptor to make models that will be available for download in future.
Grimdark setting, post apocalyptic flooded world.
The elves are cruel beings, who eat humans and rule over a dwindling empire.
They themselves destroyed the world, rather than let humanity outnumber them.
Of course, their society is degrading, while the Dwarfs and Trolls begin to encroach on land, with no great opposition in sight.
There are dwarf minis, trolls, and humans on top of the elf ran human warbands.
It’s quite fun so far.
And really cheap to get into. I highly recommend it.
Very interested to see, given the free rules and miniature agnostic nature, I'd assume you'd be all over it North
There’s a reaction coming. People jumped at this game, then the Discord thing happened, then everyone started to rabidly praise this game either for being a “40K killer” or a way to “own the chuds” (whatever that means nowadays)… And now the KS is over and a good number of people is sobering up and thinking “What was that all about? What did I pledge for?” 😅
I honestly can see myself kitbashing a TC warband and playing with friends, but I fear I’ll feel icky doing it. And that’s not what I want to feel during my precious hobby-time.
"Own the chuds" is a great sign to walk away from whoever said it. Its like a dude saying my lady while wearing a fedora
You fear youll feel icky doing it? Grow a spine
What is there to feel icky about?
@@jackmerrideww you mean I should force myself into liking a tabletop game?
@@cronk8219 the obvious 40K influences, the not-too-subtle stabs at Orthodox Christian imagery, people brandishing this game on social media as “a big win over the Right”…
Space Weirdo’s. A bargain at £2.88. It’s brilliant
Sci-fi in general attracts a lot of mentally unstable people. You can see your local Games Workshop store regulars or look at a Star Trek convention - lots of socially awkward and depressed people who don't have a lot of other things going on in their life. If you're going to be around these folks to game or experience an event then you're smart to keep them at arm's length.
I am Catholic, and one of the things I like about 40k is the Catholic aesthetic that is woven in to large parts of it. But 40k only uses the aesthetic, not the religion itself. Trench crusade is just absolutely too blasphemous for me.
im Orthodox and I feel excatly the same on this
I’ve gone back and forth on this because Trench Crusade seems much more to be allegorical to WWI, but I am starting to feel it’s a bit too close to the sun for me. You can make a grim dark setting without making every faction horrifying and evil.
I'm religious and other people have written things way worse than this in the past I personally find being religious makes the setting ten times funner
I'm Orthodox myself. I'm completely in agreement with you here.
Same as a Catholic myself,almost backed it a couple times and stopped when my conscience got to me.
And I will always champion games like Quar and historical wargame/skirmishers.
Trench Crusade is cool and seems quite interesting, but it makes a characateur of grimdark. Everything feels like grimdark for the sake of being grimdark, rather than being grimdark for a justifiable reason.
As someone who has actually played a decent amount of games of Trench Crusade, I can confirm the game itself actually is great.
Both the playtest rules and the campaign rules are already out. The game is already in a FULLY playable state and people have been playing it. I have had more fun playing TC within the past 4 weeks than I have playing 40k for 5 years.
Warbands are heavily customisable, the factions have recognisable esthetics, and the rules themselves are actually really flavourful, fun and streamlined.
Yes, the lore is not perfect and could do with more nuance and character centered stories. But it's barely out of Kickstarter. 40K has the edge on TC because of DECADES of writers building the world from what used to be a tongue-and-cheek silly satire to a vast universe with a lot of good and bad stories. And only until relatively recently has the Imperium been shown as something that can be something worth fighting for. Until relatively recently, the Imperium has been shown as nothing less than a decaying husk of an empire clinging onto life with absolutely no hope of peace or victory. Its people suffer and its leadership hinders its own survival under the weight of its own bureaucracy and superstition.
Plus, the dev team have actually SHOWN their good will and competency. Transparency to their community, hiring trusted industry professionals to make the art/lore/gameplay, and even recently, they covered the entire VAT tax for shipping for people getting the rulebook from Kickstarter so they don't have to pay extra.
This is why I wish it every success, but the I'm here for lore and stories - this setting has very limited scope for both even if they write it.
Yeah the big thing that attracted me to it after seeing the setting and art was most definitely the attitude of the dev team - the devs are extremely active on the Facebook group and Tuomas frequently responds to people's questions on there.
I don't really care if the setting is perfect yet, the lore is in it's infancy and I think there's loads of scope to develop it. 40K was barely a coherent narrative when it captivated me as a teenager so I don't think it too wise to jump the gun on TC any more than those over-hyping it are. I see a certain Mr Chambers has been hired to create the setting's first named character so that's certainly got my attention.
@northernexile their was a time and a place where 40k was just about big dudes in armor killing orcs, and their was no story beyond that. I do agree that this religious angle puts a damper in the amount of things they could write, but for a while the same thing could of been said for all sorts of war game. A detective Noir starring a gritty PI in a Hive City was a far flung thought back when space marines were first taking off. I understand the story gripes, but let it cook, i think if they get their cards right and get the right perspectives of the war, their could be some very intriguing stories to come out of TC
@@northernexile So basically you do not like it it you do not add 000000000 zeroes to the number of anything happening.
Oh no 60 billion imperial guard died. OH no!!
To me 40k became a joke. Just add Zeroes without purpose, nothing matter because 1 ultramarine will kill all 4 chaos gods at the same time.
"Limited Scope" = Limited imagination from your part. Look at OUR planet, Look how much shit is happening all around you since 4000 BC.
Unfortunately, the fact that this setting is nihilistic, meme-tier material only makes it more appealing to the drooling Reddit masses.
They’re only wannabe edgelords who just larp all day they won’t buy the game let alone 3D prints and paints .
@@arinthel Reddit and it’s consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
Good. Let them invest time and resources into a game that nobody will be playing in 2 years.
@@carbonjohnson6414 And you keep paying $75 for ten little plastic soldiers so you can play a midwit game like 40k.
I thought this "IP" was already compromised via the creators/discord mods?
Honestly, it feels so much like the building blocks of a setting they have how the fighting is done and what sparked it, and why everything is sad in the fight against the darkness however I agree what we need are good books that give of the flicker of a candle of hope against the dark but I think that will take a bit after all 40k started as just an RPG and models and has had decades to build the story to build characters we love and root for and trench crusade deserves the same chance
i wont back up "vokies".
Totally ! not into trench crusade. Honestly , I think it's just a lazy idea. Just Demons this and Hell that.
I Kickstarted at the $85 level for a warband and rulebook, but after ruminating on the game and setting for a while, I don't think the game is for me. It's not the religion or anything, but after painting up a couple Burrows and Badgers miniatures, I think I want my side games to be a bit more whimsical to offset the grimdark 40K.
I'll keep notifications on for this.
Personally, I don't like it because its beyond grimdark. Its uncompromisingly bleak & somber, with no variation between the factions. There is nobody fighting against the dying of the light. The light is long gone & there's nothing but wretched vermin feasting on one another in the dark. Everything's horrible, bleak, gory, and abhorrent, with no room for anything else.
Other grimdark settings at least have a means of taking a breather in the form of a character or faction that has either a silver lining of hope or comedic relief to it. 40K itself would be a lot more dull if it were just Chaos, Drukhari and Tyranids. Even as one who paints and plays different factions of chaos for the most part.
I agree with most of the things but there is New Antioch and the Caliphate. they're just regular humans.
@@cjdesantis2131the Caliphate makes huge slave monsters..even a Penitent Engine seems moral in comparison
I think you guys have a really limited understanding of what constitutes grimdark, do you want grimdark or not? Why complain when it's taken straight for once?
@@cjdesantis2131 the Caliphate makes monsters, even a Penitent Engine of the SoB seem moral in comparison
@@cjdesantis2131 New Antioch has the Meta-Christs, which are implied to be clones of Christ, that are harvested for flesh and fed to people to make them mutant super-soldiers.
I think the thing with Trench Crusade is ultimately its an unintentionally reactionary product. From what I can gather it started off simply as a few art pieces Mike Franchina was doing in his spare time and simply based on the strength of that art people jumped on it . I think it shows a demand in the community for something that does have a bit more edge. I can see why it appeals to older fans of 40k who maybe feel a little disenfranchised by the current artistic and narrative direction 40k is going in. Which personally I don't think is an awful direction but I can see how it might be jarring for fans who came up with 40k when the setting was a little more grim. The popularity of Trench Crusade definitely demonstrates a bit of a push back.
I think their is hope in Trench Crusade it's just quite subtle. I think there is a bit of misunderstanding in regards to the lore that its demons on earth fighting humans. Where as its a bit more nuanced, there are no actual demons on earth or angels at this point in the timeline. As this would kick off Armageddon. Which from what I can understand from the scant lore is something niether side wants. The forces of hell are trying to corrupt all of humanity as opposed to simply wiping everyone out. In this context I think the hope lies in fighting for and preserving the soul of humanity. Which I must admit is presented in rather messed up way in TC but thats the punchline I guess.
I think its got a lot of scope going forward and some interesting ideas to explore. There is a lot they could do if they wished to, its just a case of carrying on the momentum they have built off the back of this KS.
Is it a Warhammer killer? Of course not, but does it fill a niche that Warhammer has left behind? I'd say so. I don't think TC will have massive broad appeal just based on its subject matter and the fact that its been hardline billed as a game for mature audiences. Which immediately puts them on the back foot in a world that is increasingly PG-13. But I guess thats the point, its kind of the Terrifier of wargames to use a horror movie analogy.
But there are factions that exist and are worth fighting for. There is the Iron Sultanate and New Antioch. Britain is even stated to be holding out against the heretics and demons of hell.
I think you were trying to describe is that there should be some compassion for the protagonists.
"40k killer" no its not. A competitor, sure why not. Your arguments about the story, comparing a 4 month old game with a 40+ years of lore. Bad take.
And limited scope. What limited scope? Its Earth, just Earth. What did you expect? Oh a intergalactic space fighting?
This is not 40k. You simply consumed so much 40k over the years that you simply cannot comprehend any story that focuses on a single planet. A single digit.
And religious iconography. Why the f not? Hurt some religious feelings? Then pray to god your pain away, you preach so pray and move along.
My problem with Trench Crusade is that the setting will almost surely be compromised, so why invest time into it?
At the simplest level, a setting needs a core, inviolable premise, and downstream from that are internally consistent rules that allow the setting to be understood on its own terms. If a setting lacks such internal logic, does it have any real value beyond the initial impression of the aesthetics?
Based on the Discord mess and their being close with the 28 Mag crowd, it seems inevitable that someone will demand things that make no sense to the setting in terms of time, culture, or premise, and the setting will almost certainly change bit by bit to accommodate such demands so as to not be seen as offensive, problematic, or what have you. It will inevitably become "Like WWI against Hell... but with the safe sociopolitical views of bourgeois westerners in 202X."
Since the implosion into boring safeness seems unavoidable, why bother getting into it now just to be mad later?
This.
Oh no, there are black people in my tabletop game :c
@@qtkxtsh2074 YOU want a raceswapped pope... I want a faction of Aramaic-speaking, Ethiopian monks, dragging the Ark of Covenant out of hiding as God's own WMD.
We are not the same.
@@carbonjohnson6414 ok
@@carbonjohnson6414 Exactly. These idiots always trot out the same straw men.
You summed it up perfectly with what sounds like an awesome army idea.
Yeah, can't get into Trench Crusade. A friend of mine let me look over the playtest rules, and I'd not really gotten past the bits of lore before getting bored. As you say, there is a difference between using an aesthetic from a religion as a basis and then making it interesting in the lore like how 40K evolved out of (Milton's Paradise Lost, a bit of Catholic Crusader history, and the secular deification of ideal men turning into a religion in of itself with the Imperial Truth becoming what it set to destroy...), and just blatantly taking actual existing religions and blasphemously taking them out of context with intent to insult.
just say you are offended that its propagating Christian views next time- and yes 40k is the exact same thing just with pretty colours so i guess its alright then lol.
the guy below u in the comments did a good job lol
The argument that your making has alot in commentwith the people that complain about cultural appropriation. At least it has more understanding about the source material than most. You don't owe anyone anything and religion doesn't have to be the same in the universe you imagine unironically using the word blasphemous on a game of toy soldiers. I get not liking the world not being worth saving but I'm a chaos player doesn't apply to me.
Calling tc a hopeless setting while comparing it to 40k had me so confused.... until he started spouting imperium propaganda lol
Ok so I have a lot to say on this (i’ll try to cut it down but no promises haha).
So for me this exactly my kind of thing. WWI setting, grim-dark, human religious fanatics having to do things we in our modern world would consider horrific just to be able to survive against a purely evil foe. I like that. At most I wish it wasn’t a skirmish sized game and instead something the size of a 2k point 40k game.
Now yes some of the designs are too over-designed (it’s a problem I have with some AoS models) or just too grim dark for the sake of it. As a result it meets that “grim-derp” level of insanity.
For me I like having explanations as to why things are the way they are. I ask the question “why is this grim dark thing here in the setting? What is it’s in universe reason for it being here?” So in TC’s case does having these structures looking like that or certain armaments being like they are ember them with holy power &/or protection? Basically give it a reason why it would help said army win. In 40K something that helps the grim dark aspect is that if the armies didn’t do this they’d be secretly weakened to the point where they would be wiped out. The imperium is “justified” in its actions because if it didn’t do these things humanity would be doomed. It makes it more interesting.
Problem is that it seems people working in the community don’t want the Christian’s (and possibly the Muslims) in TC to be seen as the “good guys”. Listen if you are fighting the literal forces of Hell especially if you are servicing the Abrahamic God then yes you are the good guys. Your methods may be grimdark but that does not mean you are the good guys. It seems the community doesn’t like people saying that. I think I heard someone say that the Church in TC was just as moral/immoral as the demonic forces. It’s a similar thing (if not the same thing) to what you said about there needing to be a light of hope and a good reason why the setting should be saved.
That leads me to my biggest problem with TC and that’s the community. From people saying it’s doing super well and is so popular and anyone being skeptical about that is just a chud and the equivalent of mid century Germans. Then there was the drama of kicking out 40K fans who were checking out TC after GW pulled the Fem Custodes thing. Apparently they also are infighting amongst each other too. It just seems like a rather toxic community from the outside. I can think of some people (especially 1 person in particular) who have been let’s just say rather aggregating and I’ve frankly lost sympathy for when they get crap flung their way since they’ve put themselves out there throwing crap around themselves. There’s more issues with the community but i’ll leave it there.
I would like TC to fix the lore issues, the community gets less toxic, and it does well since it does look interesting and has some promise.
No, it is just everything being sloppy, brounish gray and full of blood and bloody boils/tumors . Playing as a chaos is cool and damned and dramatic when you oppose someone in clean and shiny armour, not another flavor of Nurgle force with trinkets of different fashion
In other words, feeling bad evil guys would be much more contrasted, if trench priest had less freshly severed hands between icons and golden crosses, it is just ridiculous at this point]
(and it is strange and weird to feel yourself saviour of humankind, when your walking temple has a strangled lamb hanging and rotting around😅)
@@Vladislavaklymait sounds like you’re disagreeing with me on something but idk what.
I will at least agree that the church having nicer looking armor (well nice enough for a warrior who lives and fights in WWI trenches since they will look dirty.
I don’t know what you mean by “feeling bad evil guys”. I will say though that I did mention I wanted a reason for the grim dark stuff. Having the golden crosses give holy protection would help. Having the hands nailed to a shield or something be the hands of saints, war heroes, martyrs, etc and they are nailed like Jesus’s hands would be nailed provides holy power. That sort of thing I want to see so it “justifies” why the grim dark stuff is done.
That last point about it being weird and strange to see yourself as a savior or humankind when you’re a walking temple with a lamb hanging from it. Again I’d want to why that is the way it is and how it helps humanity survive. Remember the Imperium has even more screwed up stuff in it and they saviors of mankind. That’s just how grim dark works. The good guys many times will do morally grey or straight up evil things so good can eventually prevail
Also why break your comment up like that? If you made those comments at different times you could’ve edited your original comment each time to include the new stuff
@caspianbchalphy ah, I actually cut the message so it is the opposite, more easy to answer to the specific point without copying/mentioning it.
I say it from the point of view of generally chaos /skaven/whatever evil fraction the setting provides type of player -- and for me big part of the fun is having distinct darkish aesthetics, to show these clean warriors of light, that they could be stained as well. But in TC everyone is the same level of violence and harshness and having bloody tumors all over the body. You cannot stain someone, who probably same amount of atrocities you did.
You're reminding me of how I felt about Age of Sigmar after release.
I was into it until the discord drama. Any game that supports left wing or right wing shit is not for me.
I've heard a few people allude to this. Can you give a quick tldr on what happened?
@@Daemonik So, because word got out about TC around the time GW crapped the bed with the Custodes codex, some 40k people saw the art and were keen on learning more.
They join the Discord, which is run by the publishers Mag28.
The discord mods begin banning people they know from 40k circles, people suggesting new factions in ways they didn't like (e.g. the Aztecs being allied with demons), and they ban people disagreeing with far Left talking points coming from other members of the discord.
Then when people start noticing and going "hey what gives?" they claim they banned them for "bad vibes" and banned those asking questions.
Given the TC devs were not technically responsible they were called on to disavow Mag28's bias and discrimination. They refused to do so.
Then they made their own Discord server and modded a notorious harasser, clout goblin and lolcow that keeps the membership ideologically pure.
@@Deefry
Ugh.
Thanks. I like to be a drama-free zone with my hobby time. Doesn't put me off trying the _game_ with people I already know, but if that's the official community it certainly puts me off that.
@@Deefry Oh cool so a buncha lefties were annoying people and got clapped and moaned? okey dokey.
@@Daemonik+1
Im sorry Warhammer is not worth saving at all , it is an incredibly hideous world. You just want to hate other grimdark out there , wish is silly to me. I am excited because I always have wanted to get into the hobby , also love the flexibility they are offering and lets be honest many of us missed the Warhammer boat , no it is very expensive to get into it. I just find your excuses not good.
Not my bag...just too Blasphemous...I get that isn't cool these days, but there it is.
Take on the Black Templars then?
If I may ask, why is it too blasphemous to you? I as ask as a Christian who finds myself really enjoying the setting personally.
@@jal1656Too close to reality.
@@chad534 tell me you haven't read the lore without telling me
the moment the makers said "The devil isn't really a bad guy" I was immediately over it, God himself shows up and the bible and religion is proven for a fact unequivocally and the devil isn't the bad guy.....yeah sorry no thanks, you cannot convince me the father of lies who hates god and humanity because he couldn't usurp god is "Misunderstood" and god isn't the good guy.
Facts!
What're you babbling about??? When the hell did the TC team say the "devil isn't really a bad guy"????
@@hereticalchappie6729 in an early interview one of the creators SAID "The devil isn't actually a bad guy." it got a TON of controversy.
@malal6512 To be brutally honest, that sounds like a fucking joke taken out of context. If Franchina was being 100% serious, that could also indicate that the direction of TC has moved AWAY from this idea - given it was an Early interview
"one of the creators". How very specific of you.
I’d like to know your thoughts on the lore and gameplay of other games such as Carnevale, Malifaux, Conquest, or Turnip28.
Ooh, Malifaux, someone still remembers it exists...ed?
I have a lot of hope for the game and have pledge towards their kick starter because even if the game turns out to be a let down I love the models so hobby side I’m excited, I have also made a little backstory for my own team they’re based on an island called Haven’s Light it’s a safe place for people that have become refugees due to the war so there’s a mix of people from different backgrounds that have come together it’s a truly good place within the dark world that is trench crusade. I’m also religious myself and don’t take any offence personally from the setting I know it’s not a real thing it’s fantasy and if anything my religious background has helped motivate me in creating the story for my own team within such a dark world
Oooh, someone formulated my issue with lore. Also , this relates to art too- the lower level units are awesome, but starting from highmid-high ranj they all becoming meatgrind blobs that just are meat and blood for more meat and blood(yes Seven Headed Serpent post warlock unit, I am talking about you)
cant play it the lore is very much a jab at templars and christanity itself how i know the devs said it was satire on christanity but deleted the message minutes later and left me replused
Relatable narrative is the foundation of all these products and makes or breaks them.
No mother is going to buy her little boy a trench crusade box. Many will buy them Warhammer boxes.
I don't think the creators ever intended it to be a product for children. Plus given their stance on kitbashing and 3D printing. It doesn't appear they're all that concerned with selling minis
@@johnconnor2572 look at the price they've set on their minis and say otherwise
24:50 You reminded me of the first Skulduggery Pleasant book for a moment. "And he's the good guy!" it says about a pinstripe-suited skeleton wielding elemental magic.
Yeah, my impression was that it's all a bit one-note, but you put a finer point on it. Still, it might be a fun thing to dabble in for now.
I don't think the grimdark hits as hard unless the setting is also very funny.
So if they released just the rules as is (the play test rules) it’s already a decent game. Me and my gaming group have already played several games and are planning a campaign in the new year. The pros are, alternate activation, low model count, fast paced, model agnostic. Cons nothing model wise available to buy, too much freedom ?
The lore isn’t a big deal to me but imagery is, a ww1/ww2 fantasy setting just appeals to me. The use of Christianity isn’t an issue for me but I can see why believers may take issue.
I've been getting into the lore recently and really like it so far. As a Grey Knight lover the Paladins in Trench Crusade appeal to me, Over powered Knights that go into the depths of Hell to slay daemons and anything else they come across.
Everyone is of course free to enjoy and do what they like but I’m not really down with a game that mocks the King of Kings Jesus Christ. I wouldn’t play a game that treated my mother in a disrespectful manner so I’m not going to play one that treats my Lord and Savior that way. Cheers.
@Dram1984 Sure but TC lore also portrays that as a Bad thing... Like, the church are deeply Heretical and that's the reason it's a Grimdark setting. I don't believe it's sacrilegious or disrespectful and don't see where you're coming from
@ I’ll admit I didn’t look super deep, just saw stuff about people eating the flesh of a clone of Christ to get super powers and a bunch of other stuff and decided it wasn’t for me. You don’t have to agree, I’m not the Pope or anything. :) It’s just treating things that are real and sacred as fodder for a game doesn’t sit well with me. If it doesn’t bother you that’s cool.
@Dram1984 As a fan I think it's super well researched and just going down the similar route of "what if everything went horribly wrong" that 40k does. Plenty of ppl don't like 40k either tho, so we'll agree that both Trench Crusade and 40k is for ANYONE lol ;)
You Christians are overly sensitive about everything.
I love that comments like this are so respectfully debated
Id like to see another video on your thoughts of other tabletop games like a song of ice and fire, parabellums conquest, privateer press' warmachine, etc.
I've not looked at TC super-deep, primarily because it's not yet a finished product. I'd rather see what it is when it's "ready". Kinda like when that Wolverine movie was leaked before adding the effects - i waited until the finished movie was available.
From what i know (again, isn't much) I agreed with North more than i expected to. It struck me as "Krieg: The 15 generation endless war. Now with daemons!" and seemed to be trying a little too hard. But that may well be just the people i've talked to about it.
I know a few people who are excited to try it out, and probably will myself when it's ready. If the mechanics are good, i can quite happily play and just not get into the lore element if that doesn't appeal.
We'll see, but i have a feeling it won't be for me in terms of story. But that's absolutely fine. Lots of things are not for me. Doesn't reflect badly on the game. Hopefully it will be good and do well, and offer those people it does appeal to another option to play toy soldiers.
You just missed out on the big launch dude. It just happened. Look it up they have huge lines of models and stuff now. It will all start to go on sale next year from what they are saying on the kickstarter posts to those of us who pledged.
@@matt6387That's cool. I wasn't interested enough to buy at this point. I played quite a few games of BA before buying it. I'm in absolutely no rush. I'll try it with someone who has it, and see what I think from there.
The people who make the game already made it clear they hate TTWG fans and are all the worst elements of GW
How so?
I need to see the citation on that
@quintincasada4154 they banned people from the discord for disliking female custodes iirc
@@quintincasada4154 my brother in Christ this is UA-cam comments not Reddit
this is one hell of a miss. New Antioch is that kingdom that does grim, hard things to keep the world safe. the rest of Europe is embattled against the forces of Hell to varying degrees, but it’s not their fault. that’s not even taking into account the potential for the rest of the world! the sultanate of the iron wall is a peaceful, prosperous place, a virtuous kingdom defending the faithful from the worst of the forces of hell. plus, the community has been active in kicking out nazis in a way that warhammer hasn’t, so that’s always a plus.
I played an early game a few months ago, and read the lore they had - it was pretty clear from early on that it’s just a clone of 40k. They simply took all the surface level details of 40k and changed little details about them, without the depth behind them.
I think you may wanna take a step back on this, I fear you looked at the art and decided it's too grimdark. The lore has plenty of reasons to fight in it and it's too young a setting to make calls on this stuff
Wasnt there another scifi steampunk game that was also suppose to be a 40k killer? Warmachine i think it was called?
It kinda got decent sized then kinda went quite
They made a bunch of bad descisions, iirc they even did the equivleent of discontinuing every army when they went to their 4th editions. Shame, i loved Warmachine back in the day.
@@greasysmith3150also cool centerpieces I miss. Had several boxes in our hobby store, probably sold as bit-buckets
I like the idea of a skirmish game that focuses on kit-bashing and had a progressive campaign model. I like the play test rules as they currently are. I don't think the religious/edgy stuff needs to be present on your own models if you don't want them to be.
I don't disagree, entirely, with what North's saying, or the other comments. I would like the game to offer me a good hobby time regardless, and I think that's what it's going to do for me.
Will it be forever? No, I doubt it, but it'll be fun to dip into when the mood takes me.
Clearly I didn't send you enough pictures of Artillery Witch
Grimdark doesn't need hope in order to work. One of my favorite writers is Wayne Barlow, he wrote two books about hell and the demons who live their, their daily lives, the constant wars against major demons over territory and resources. I love that kind of setting, mainly because it's a examination of once noble fallen angels and their mental adjustment and acceptance of their fall from grace, the culture that rises from their damnation, the different ways they deal with being the losers. The time for hope has passed and if written well it honestly makes things so much more interesting. I never focused on a world worth saving with 40k. I was too interested in the worlds that were damned. The early days of Rogue Trader were a fav in terms of style and setting to me because I didn't feel like the imperium were good guys and everyone was just killing everybody for whatever their own reasons were. Maybe the imperium were the good guys but it didn't really ever matter to me. That's why I hate most new 40k stuff. It's pushing this stupid "noble dark" crap. I think 40k was more interesting if GW had the balls to kill off the emperor and have the rest of the series just be humanity's rage against the dying of the light. Dark Souls is another example of a world that can't be saved, it makes a far more interesting story when we actually let the light extinguish instead of clinging onto a age that is already dead.
Barlow's Inferno. I used to own a copy. I loved his guides to Extraterrestrials and Fantasy. For the longest time I didn't realize he designed all the creatures for Avatar.
Looks really cool to me, as I love skirmish games, and rules are written by gaming heavyweights. Im response to some comments: Who cares what the discord communities are like, make your own, the rules are literally free online. I understand some people might find it distasteful, but 40k is pretty distasteful too
I like ya north, but you have a bad habit of espousing your opinions as facts. To say that trench crusade is too dark, and the imperium isnt, is nuts. Youre saying the people that feed civilians corpse starch and servitorize innocents and criminals alike, arent too grimdark? Cmon man. You dont seem to have a problem with 40k penitent engines, but trench crusade is too much? I can agree with your opening points but once you go into that rant speaking as if your feelings are the facts, well thats where i have a problem.
Too be fair, the things you mentioned about the Imperium are dependent on the planet. The Imperium has paradise worlds for example. Penitent engines are also part of 1 faction, not the entire Imperium or all its armies.
I'm not sure how you say this when I literally preface all videos like this with 'this is just my opinion', but there we are.
If I am forceful about sharing those opinions - that is literally why you are here mate. This is a UA-cam channel.
I find the majority of people who say the setting in 40K isn't grimdark enough are usually cherry picking the brighter moments - while there are certainly more of these at times you would be hard-pressed to find a recent narrative in 40K that didn't have a lot of very dark material at some point in the story. There's little evidence that the horrors of 2nd and 3rd edition Imperium aren't being visited upon it's subjects on a regular basis in the timeline of 10th edition. There's just a bit more focus on the "heroes" too.
@northernexile you're inconsistent in your opinions, wishy washy. You say things like, "40k has lost its edge, 3rd ed was better," but then, "trench crusade is too grimdark." Well then, what do you want? And you're right, I am here to listen to your opinions. But you flip flop when it's convenient, and that is why I'm coming less and less to hear your opinions.
@@delsinmunroe5067 I dunno though it's quite nice to see a video for once that doesn't randomly bring divorced dad energy in for an unscheduled 10 minute rant about women.
I think you missed a massive portion of the lore mate, Europe, for the most part, is mostly peaceful. Sure there are heretic incursions but thats not the norm. Thats why New Antioch has The Tithe, whether it be men, material, food whatever because the majority of the fighting is in the Levant. So yeah, there is hope and something worth fighting for.
Why not homebrew your own warband like a new antioch or sultinat and trench pilgrims and make narrated battle where you have to save civilians or protect holy artifacts and sits reclaiming sometimes important for the war effort can you not right a story like fan fiction that fits in the lore the possibilitys are endless .Oh one thing i heard gamza said something about grimdark being hard to writeing and needs to be written professionally in my opinion i think his right on the writeing grimdark is hard but professionally I dont think it's that level of difficulty thats just my opinion i wander what is yours im curious
I've had similar thoughts with Trench Crusade. Sure, the grim dark is awesome, but there still needs to be hope somewhere and something to achieve. And, from what I get and understand from the lore, heaven does not sound like a place in that universe I want to go to, it could even be worse than hell for all we know!
Demanding hope from grimdark is like demanding sex scenes from a children's television show.
Oh no people mad that not everyone likes the new thing that will lose most of its players within two years oh no... Anyway how is everyone. I like the idea of TC myself played the beta rules since they were out they are fine pretty good fun but it is a niche in a niche hobby.
Thanks for putting into words what I have felt about the setting.
We already decided to try Trench Crusade in my game group.
And I chose The Iron Sultanate precisely because they have something left to protect behind their walls.
I dont think you understand 40k
NEWS ALERT: Trench Crusades’ online Moderators BANNED 40k fans, who migrated over after the Fem Custodes / Woke drama… They called us ALL FASCISTS, & perma banned…
Yup. Get woke, go broke.
The irony of themcalling you fascists, then banning you because you don't agree with their ideologies.
I like it because it has an eastern european feel. Also 1000 years of history of my part of the world shows me that there is no such thing as worth and that there is no such thing as "too grim dark". And questions like why are you fighting for a +1000 years, what is it for. Is an odd one. We fight?, because as long as we do the other side doesn't win. We also fought wars of faith for +600 years. If we didn't fight we would be gone cenuries ago. When l think of Smolensk , l think of the 27 battles and sieges in its histories . The battles of Kiev , the breaking/defendin of the fords on the river Prypeć. It is non stop war.
Also don't think the game has much overlap with games made by GW. Closest to it are the WWll games made by Warlord. And even those don't really do trench warfare. Also the humanity is good thing does not work in places where there is war every 25-30 years and a large one every 25-50.
Yeeeah, but you forget that before napoleonics it barely touched non -combatants (mostly in heavy town siege blockades)
I hope Trench Crusade succeeds because I genuinely like the foundation of their settings. The religious iconography and themes don’t bother me at all given that 40K is far worse in heretical themes such as a secular emperor who is deemed god, who wiped out religion on Terra. That being said, I absolutely appreciate these valid critiques about the setting of Trench Crusade.
Nevermind the secular emperor didn't want to be called God? We can't even say that for Jesus and that was heretical at the time he made such claims
I don't think I really need any lore besides what is necessary to tie my collection together.
Of course there is also the idea that there is a whole hemisphere we know little of that might be "normal", or even that the lack of hope is meant to be an ironic joke or lesson for civilisation, that there is a path of no hope, with nothing to live for, but we believe there is something there anyway. At the very least, there is a Heaven and Hell, so if you don't fight (and especially if you top yourself!) you are liable to end up in Hell; so the ultimate goal may not lie on this side of life, but on the other.
"Earn your place in Heaven by sending pagans to Hell!" Terry Jones presents: The Crusades.
Otherwise, particularly cool minis and artwork, so I invested. It's all the lore I need.
for every Mordor you need the shire
You do know people have been playing this for a year, right? The rules are out for free, so people know what it is.
I don't think anyone saying "it's going to be good" means "it's going to outsell warhammer". It's mostly a skirmish campaign game. You can tell it was made by a Mordheim designer.
is the game out? No? Then you haven't played the final release yet. They are literally called 'Playtest Rules' for a reason.
I agree with many of your thoughts. Currently, the gameplay I have seen doesnt get me excited. However the aesthetic, the lore, the potential has me extremely excited.
TC is pretty fun, it's like a gun focused Mordheim
Howdy, I think I’m one of those ravenous TC fans has been annoyingly commenting on everything, sry.
Personally I’m a lore and model guy, I hope the rules are fun but I have 3 40K arms and knight and I have literally never played a game. Currently lore is up in the air I think before we make a real judgment on lore we have to wait for at least one book because we don’t have really any characters right now we just have historical figures and events. They need time to cook I’ll make a judgment then.
The only thing I think I really disagree with you on is the idea that there’s no hope in the setting. we know that new Antioch, the Roman empire, Brittania, and the sultanate all have real societies with real human beings that they’re defending. Maybe this is because I grew up around lotta Christians but you’re not fighting for the world, you’re fighting for people with immortal souls and a heavenly kingdom. so I don’t get the point that “peoples lives suck so what’s the point”, the point is you’re fighting against metaphysical evil in service of divine love and goodness.
Criticism is in good spirit I ❤️ ur content
A friend of mine that plays 40k that are more leaned towards historicals would never play something like trench crusade. I really like trench crusade because it is the grimdark we can have currently. If the religion stuff bothers you, try forbidden psalm the last war. It has the grimdark and the ww1 just dont have the religious stuff.
Idk, I just like it cause "Crusaders? In trenches? In WW1? Against demons and heretics? Holy hell, that's so cool."
you can play it though the rules are free and available im not saying your wrong but it is out and campaigns are on youtube
I said we don't have the final game rules yet...and we don't. You are playing the Playtest Rules - TC literally call them that. This is like playing Cyberpunk 2077 in 2018, two years before it came out, and then telling people you've played the finished game - you haven't.
I think you are spot on North, I feel from a lore perspective Trech crusade is pretty 1 dimensional. I don't even play 40k and I know Trench Crusade is not even out yet, but I can get lost for Hours in Warhammer 40k lore (there is still 30k lore beyond that) I read all the lore and watched a bunch of videos on Trench Crusade and felt huh that's it? ok, and went back to reading 40k lore. Also, I prefer the more abstract religion of 40k than the spot on the nose, Trench Crusade real world (well sort of since they put the Templar in the wrong time period all together) use of religion from Trench Crusade.
Than what do you think of 1490 Doom?
I see in Trench Crusade the same failings as the brown and grey Uber serious games of the 2000s. 40k is awash in color which helps characters stand out but also helps inspire artists who will be painting the minis that keep the hobby alive. If I painted an army for trench crusade I’d get bored of greys and browns with 1 piece a different color really quickly.
Someone finally said it.
I have a bunch of mates going balls deep because "fuck GW" even though they print everything anyway.
I like the lore and all, but it's just another game system.
Also I keep seeing people say 40k is copying trench crusade now 😅
I wrote a story about an Egyptian version of trench crusade that use catholic and hindeuo history and legends as villains cavillations as well with the main human empire using Egypt and gothic to add a mixed flavor, 40k has the imperium mixed with all types of human culture to show all of humanity's art radiant beauty it adds nuance and to have those cultures both aesthetic and cultural values to the create interesting interaction especially in an empire lead under one flag it creates conflict, peace, new ways of thinking. Thats why I like 40k its diverse in the right way and like you said it creates hope each of these cultures have their own perspective on the world Thuse will have more degrees of hope being found and spawned.
Totally agree with your points, Northern. I feel the same about some survival horror settings, where I think I would rather just die than struggle to live on through an endless hell with no future.
I absolutely agree with you that Trench Crusade isn't for me. For me it's being overhyped just like OPR is - for me it'll take more than just "this is new and anti-GW" to get me away from the intricate world (or galaxy) I've grown attached to. On top of that, as a Christian, some of the ways they're portraying Christianity raises a few red flags in my eyes, especially when you hear about the weird woke stuff that's happened on their discord server that makes it sound like this is a way for them to crap on the religion again, and of course I don't want to give any woke stuff my money.
I have a few issues with the game.
1. The world is built for a medium-large army game, skirmish just doesn’t cut it.
2. The world doesn’t incorporate enough Christian Religious Events. The fact that Christianity is still united under a Catholic dogma ignores a major sect: Protestantism.
3. They wrote themselves into a hole. Because they didn’t leave threads to Protestantism, or other strong demons beyond Beezey, whatever army they design next will feel like a Slaanesh asspull “I was always here the whole time”, which is fine for demons, but unrealistic for the “forces of God”
I'm not a big fan of TC but the models look good and I'll probably buy some when it gets a wide release
I totally agree with you - I hope it does really well but the setting and the story is kind of a bummer... I get that its grim dark but where 40k shines is how it constantly betrays grim dark with colorful and fantastic characters, hilarious situations... The irony that the god of secrets has the most colourful and noticeable demons. In 40k there is this very strong dichotomy between ridiculously over powered soldiers in overly colorful armor with over the top plumage and unnecessary designs and iconography in contrast to the "grim dark" part where billions and trillions of people are getting exterminatis and life is so horrible and unimaginable... It's like shocking when it gets really dark. Art it all about contrast, and the dark only feels dark because there are bright colors to compare to. Im not from the UK, im Canadian, but what I think 40k does very well is that the Grim dark thing is serious like 20% of the time and that 20% is so absurd and horrifying, but the rest of that 80% is AAA sci-fi fantasy mixed with very funny dry UK kinda humor taking the piss out of the absurdity of real world western civilization and government. Its a social commentary... In Trench Crusade in comparison seems way too serious and brown and just frickin ugly shelled out mud, no fantastical primearchs, no gothic architecture, no butresses, just flat grinding death.