UBOAT 4-Bearing Method
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- My explanation of the 4-Bearing method along with several examples to hopefully answer all of the questions about why your attempts are not successful. Don't worry, you're doing it right. There's just a reason why we don't read about the 4-Bearing method in the Uboat Commander's Handbook, and it has nothing to do with a paper written in 1953.
The steady and calm pace you explain this method, whether a video takes 1 hr instead of the usual YT 15 min or not, is so highly appreciated. It just makes it clear right away, without having to rewind every 30 seconds to hear a step over and over. And so great to see you allow yourself to be 'wrong' if the method is simply not perfect. Really enjoying the content, thanks!
Kind words, thank you so much! I get a little nervous about posting things that aren't "perfect" but I figure it's better to show folks what they can really reasonably expect so I don't have to explain so much why the method isn't always working for them. I don't often use the 4-bearing method so much as I'm sometimes forced to use it due to poor visibility.
I never comment on UA-cam videos, but this series has been outstanding and I’ve learned so much from it. Keep it coming
Thanks Squid, I appreciate that! ☺
Thanks for this. You make the best videos by far for playing U-boat.
I used the 4 bearing method in-game now over 100 times and figured out a few tricks to actually make it work.
First of all, as you already stated in the video, the hydrophone isn't very precise. If you click on a hydrophone contact on the right, a window on the left will pop up and that will give you a much bigger range for the contact. Usually it's 5-10 degrees.
This means it's not a surprise that some of your results are not so good, especially for small angles, aka (bearing close to each other and contact in big distance).
I found a way to mitigate this: when measuring the 4th bearing, I usually move in parallel(!!) course to the target and not towards it. This increases the angle for the line crossing the expected fourth bearing and gave me much better results so far. In one case, I have posted in the Uboat discord, that's a difference of target 3km away and 30 km away.
Another topic:
The 4 bearing method works PERFECT for targets that you have in sight. In this case, you get a precise bearing (one exact point) and then the method really helps with calculating an interception course for firing a torpedo right at 90 degrees. It also gives you target AOB, speed and distance. So all you need for torpedo calculation. Only difficulty is that you must be far away enough so that they won't detect you (or submerged).
Btw, I have also seen tutorials for a 4 bearing method while moving. They are much much more complicated to perform and I didn't try them yet, butt I have the feeling they might be more precise than the static one. The Uboat discord has a few examples.
The static one is "unrealistic" anyway, because a boat would never stop and stay static (ocean streams etc).
Hope that helps.
Thanks, appreciate the confirmations. You are correct, there are more advanced methods of TMA that work while moving. They determine a DRM line (Direction of Relative Motion) as opposed to True Course and then convert relative motion to true motion. It is a little more complicated because you need to understand how to solve relative motion problems on a maneuvering board. It would be nice in the game if the unused secondary map was just a flat maneuvering board and nomograph image that we could draw on. However, we can always just draw our own.
Can you get accurate distance with those tools? I'm probably doing it wrong, but it seems like I only get whole numbers. Meaning for example if I'm measuring 1km it won't change to meters if it's less than 1. I found that to be an issue when I tried to do the 3: 15 method and then I just abandoned it and use the chronometer tool the game gives you. But I'd really like to be able to do it on the map if it's reasonable.
Inside of a 1km, the distance measurement will go down to meters if you are zoomed in on the map. So yes, you can see 700m for 7kts.
@@xljedi2335 lol thanks. Just found and sunk my first freighter in 100% realism mode thanks to these videos.
Although I didn't end up with my lines intersecting the probable target location. I sped toward the target course before plotting the 4th observation though. Not away so I'm going to try that next time and see if it was my mistake
Thanx a lot for these tutorials, your explications are clear and well paced. With various examples you cover various situations. The game is so fun playing 100% realism thanx to your explications.
This worked wonders. My first patrol and the 4 bearings got me on a near perfect intercept course to a destroyer and freighter :) I do the plotting slightly differently - instead of fiddling with searching for the target course i draw parallel lines of bearings 1 and 2. Many thanks (and sorry for triggering you with the O'Kane method request earlier lmao)
Parallel lines are of course fine. For me, when I draw the extra lines, they start to confuse me. So I luvs my little gadget. 🥰
You're like the Bob Ross of UBOAT tutorials and videos with your calm pace, detailed yet simple explanations and the occasional "happy little accident".
I personally don't care for the four bearing method. It takes too much time and effort for something that can be achieved by just eyeballing a course with a couple of hydrophone readings when approaching a target until you establish visual contact, pretty much like you explained in the beginning of the video and how I imagine Kriegsmarine submariners would've done it. But I still appreciate and the opportunity to learn something!
By the way, did you hear about MrKartoffels attack disc mod? It got updated recently and features a fully functional attack disc. It's such a treat and I love using it for determining AoB from aspect ratios, velocities from constant bearing and all that fun stuff you mentioned in passing in previous videos. I recommend you check it out!
Keep the content coming and sorry for the ramble!
I'll have to take a look at the attack disc. I would think it is something like folks used to print out and use on the side for SH3/4. I had other gadgets I liked to use on the side, so my focus was elsewhere at the time. I do like mechanical gadgets like the E6-B, so I may revisit the attack disk again. Thanks for mentioning it! 😊
Good to see your 4 bearing method demonstrated using Uboat tools. The tilted map is annoying and I have usually resorted to plotting with pen and paper.
Your system of matching two circles is a great tip!
Incidentally, if you need to edit a time label, just reselect the point tool and click on it, then you can edit the text.
@@flightsimflyeruk great tip, thank you!
Love this game, but can't get it to play for more than 20 minutes without a crash to desktop. You make great content and guides, thank you
Well this dropped just in time! Thanks skipper!
I'm lazy and leave a couple of hours between dips. Reduces the measurement error. I'm happy to spend 12 hours (accelerated) to set up an attack if needed but usually needs less.
Roughly two hour dip intervals and recording time points to the nearest 5 minutes takes the pressure off hitting precise timing for soundings as the maths is easy to determine their speed whether it's a 1:50 interval or 45 mins if they're closer etc.
I dunno if I'd call it lazy. Just seems like, if it takes 12hrs, by that time you could've used other methods to engage the target.
@@xljedi2335 ay ay ay, you crack the whip harder than than the BdU! Out here eating canned bread but intercept faster he says 😂
@@alphgeek Until this game, I had never actually heard of canned bread. Now, I might try to buy some. 😉
@@xljedi2335 Here in New England we can buy B&M Brown Bread in cans. I was raised in a fishing village north of Boston and my father would bring it home. He would take one end of the can off and heat it in the oven. I remember it being a treat; it was so long ago that I can't remember what it tasted like. I am going to buy some and recreate my memory.
@@georgebrooks2153 That's really cool to be able to associate that with a fond childhood memory and time with you father. 😊
Love your videos. You explain it so well. Thanks!
I noticed that with this game, compared to silent hunter. The sweet spot is 30 minutes. That
chronometer is hard to read, so I wait a full circle on the small dial. It's easier with this game because the hydroplane distance frequency has such a wide range. When i first saw that wide circle go out 200km, I laughed. It does make things easier for things to spot through these long, drawn-out patrols on other games. Cheers
Why bother with the chronometer at all? I'd just read from the time at top left of screen. One thing I might suggest; if you are willing to wait 30 minutes, you might also try using 32 minutes. At 32 minutes, the distance between bearings on your final solution would also be the target speed if using knots and meters.
@xljedi2335 good suggestions, actually i didn't really think about that . I know that with the four bearing methods, I try to wait to get 5 to 6 degrees differences, making my marks, which I find great on the 30-minute mark. Sometimes I have to wait 1 or 2 hours, which I come to realize they're in a straighter course.
Thank you
20 minutes is close enough to 6x 3min14. To get a good estimate on speed, divide distance travelled in meters by 6. Used to do this on SH3,4 &5. Try to understand the basics you can mix and match different methods. Great video, well explained.
Just tried this and was within 12km which gave me visual smoke so yes it works
I'm getting the impression that the bearing info you get from the propeller icon includes an entirely appropriate error factor for 100% realism.
I suspect it is more likely a bug in the game when your sub is not moving. The bearing info is perfect if you are moving at the slowest speeds. If you go to zero, the sub doesn't move, but the heading drifts. The heading drift does not seem to be recognized by the hydro-operator, but it is recognized by the boat hull and has an impact on the relative bearing that you draw. As it stands now, the methodology I explain is correct, and if in the future the bug is corrected, we might expect to see better accuracy. For now... I don't rely on a stationary 4-Bearing Method to determine target true course.
You are my Hero
Good video. I think I’ll try this but at 40 minute intervals.
Keep us posted.
You're the man, thanks so much for this!
If you immediately head towards the contact rather than stopping, the trigonometry gets more complicated but you don't throw away the travel time. Of course you might also be short of fuel and only interested in ships that are coming towards you but surely a professional naval officer should be able to handle the maths -it's still only high school (or equivalent) trig/algebra
What you'll find is... if you have a hydro contact, you are close enough (within 100km) to just charge at it to get within "smoke on horizon" range. You then establish a visual intercept vector and plan your attack strategy much the same way the real uboat commanders did it. All this discussion of hydrophone TMA, I think would've solicited a belly-laugh from any of the RL commanders. Although, understanding the concepts can be beneficial for other reasons.
@@xljedi2335 Becomes relevant when someone else tells you about the contact at least.
And by the way, how do you feel about a video covering evasion from enemy warships and surviving depth charges? Damage control. Etc...
My hope was to maybe cover that sort of stuff in my various patrol videos.
Well. I just play that the radio man can give estimates for both bearing and distance (say maybe by how loud the hydrophone contact sound is). Then you just need 2 readings and you can move while you take them and calculate rough speed as well. The 4-bearing method takes too long, by the time you have a distance bearing and course the target may be too far to catch.
I don't mind using the intercept tool to plot a course. You are correct that the 4-bearing method is not the most practical because it requires that you stop and listen for a pretty significant amount of time. There may be other methods.
It seems weird to me that "100%" gives you so much detailed precise info. The hydrophone expert can certainly get better than 40 degrees but travelling an hour and taking another reading is only sensible.
I think the most historically accurate method for hydrophone use, would be to listen in a general direction and point your sub toward the sound until you achieve visual observation distance while the target is still just over the horizon. (and can't see you!)
New to the game and to your content, I think I commented on another video of yours. Anyway, I am new to ALL of this stuff, bearing, etc. Is there a good place to read up on just the simple terms. "Bearing", etc. So this method seems to rely on the radio officer listening, sorry, I don't recall what the technology is called. Would the other video you have about 'intercepting' be more useful with getting radioed a position from friendlies when you get location, speed, etc.? Or are both methods feasible for helping to locate a target, track, and eventually engage it? My goal is to go as 'hardcore' as possible. Edit: LOVE the content. It's cool to learn about without even playing.
Another random question: Distances between bearings could be a result of a vessel changing speed, right? Or is that just not a common thing that vessels do?
The vector intercept video would be the one that applies to radio contacts. Distances between bearings could be influenced by targets changing speeds. In this game, the targets don't change speed too much, but they will change course. As for bearing and other navigation terms, you could look up basic marine and aeronautical navigation discussions. They both rely on the same general concepts.
@@xljedi2335 you're the man. Thank you. Are you a former navy man?
@@LSGMedia I was born at a Naval Air Station and my father served on the USS Independence, but no. I did not serve in the US armed forces. I do hold a pilots license though and know a fair bit about navigational concepts. I like naval sims, but suffer terribly from sea sickness every time I get on a small boat.
@@xljedi2335 , qualified enough for me. You're a great teacher, and I appreciate your time dude. That's awesome. My grandfather served on the Missouri, and I don't know shit about "bearing" so you clearly have some expertise! Hahaha - keep up the great work.
One last question: do you have a video for attacking? One of your patrol vids perhaps?
@@LSGMedia All of the TDC tutorials are designed around specific attack strategies as outlined in the Uboat Commander Handbook. Otherwise, it would be the patrol videos, I s'pose.
I was thinking about this video again today. Question, would it make sense to use nautical miles as your measuring? It seems that it's perfect for your 4 bearing (3, twenty minute intervals) method to get a ships' speed in knots for future calculations.
Also, do you use the 4 bearing much or do you just steam towards the hydrophone contact and set up your intercept?
Thank you!!
To plot the bearings, there's no real measuring involved, just making sure the distances between the bearings are equal. Whether you measure them in km or nm, or yards doesn't matter. Personally, I prefer to keep distance in meters for sighting ships, but if you want to use NM on the map you could.
I don't use 4-bearing much at the moment. Unless there's thick fog and zero other options.
Hey buddy! From a newcomer to the subsim genre - many many thanks, your guides are a pure pleasure to watch, keep em coming! If you accept requests- any chance you could show us the Dick O Kane method or Ausdampfverfahren - seem to be mighty popular on subsim :)
I kick myself and cringe a little bit every time someone mentions the Dick O'Kane method. I should never have told Rockin Robbins how to approximate Fast-90 in a US Fleetboat. I was quoting from O'Kane's memoir about how (on one attack) he overrode the position keeper to take one shot... and it got labeled the O'Kane method. To attribute such a crude attack strategy to him, as if that was his methodology is borderline insulting. However, the methods I mention in TDC Tutorial 3 outlining the most basic of perpendicular attacks at 90° with zero gyro angle would be what people have grossly mislabeled the "O'Kane Method"
www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=626781&postcount=121
It was this post above on SubSim (yeah, 17+ years ago 🙄) related to mimicking a Fast-90 tactic in a US Fleetboat that started RR down the path of renaming basic submarine attack strategies after famous sub commanders. The O'Kane strategy stuck because it was painfully basic and a fine example of every 90° perpendicular attack you see performed today on UA-cam.
In my defense, I did proceed to bash RR regularly for dumbing things down and then attributing them to famous captains, LOL. 😳 O'Kane and Cromwell were the primary ones. If anyone should ask about RR's "Cromwell Attack", it's the 45° angled attack that I explain in my TDC tutorials. A year after RR had gone on a campaign of promoting nonsense, I tried to stop it again in this thread (my posts start at 32). Alas, people still continue to call it the "O'Kane method", and here we are 17 years later. I guess we can be glad that people might read O'Kane's book (Clear the Bridge!) for themselves to truly learn about what his tactics involved.
www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144884&highlight=O%27kane
@@xljedi2335 Oh wow, did not mean to open that can of worms!
I should probably have just said the O'Kane method is the perpendicular zero-gyro angle shot that I talk about in TDC Tutorial 3. I should also have mentioned the "Ausdampfverfahren" method is what I was demonstrating in TDC Tutorial 1 where I put our boat on an intercept course with the contact at about a 45° angle. Then I point the periscope off-target at a bearing (like 315°) to set the 90° AoB position and just let the E-Lock do the calculations for me to derive the target AoB when the scope is centered back on the target.
In short, the "Ausdampfverfahren" method has you setting your sub on the target intercept vector, and then doing some maths to determine your firing solution.
In the 4 TDC tutorials, I think I've given you all the tools you need to carry out all the variations on historical attack methods. I'm always happy to read and opine on different methods you might see people talking about, so don't worry about what cans of bread we might have to pop open along the way.
I've just noticed that the map UI has a depth reading on your cursor. Is there a setting to make that show on the map as shading? Waving the mouse around probably works when playing but seeing the layout would be nicer when watching videos.
Currently, our map does not include bathymetric data. Although, I for one, have asked for it. I know others have shown similar interest.
@@xljedi2335 It seems weird when the information is all there with the wave of a mouse but you can't see where you want to go until you do wave it around
When you use the compass to draw the 2 circles and then try and line them up have you ever considered using the ruler to draw a straight line across the 2 bearings then drawing the circles on top of the straight line. Then, when you line up the individual circles the straight line moves with them and allows you to perfectly position the 2 lines you are trying to get straight. I’m not sure that makes any sense. Give it a try and you’ll see.
Love this, if you're saying what I think you are saying anyway. It dawned on me later that if I connect a line to those two outer bearing radials of each circle that you get this kind of mechanical true course solver gadget. It's been my standard for every patrol afterward. Also great to see you picked up on this on your own. Kudos my friend! ☺
@xljedi2335 That's exactly what I was failing to get across. Nicely explained.
Thank you. Waiting next one.
By the way there is mod, which makes the map 2D.
Yeah, the no cheat one. Only issue I have with that mod is it seems to be working from the standpoint of map contacts being ON in the game settings and they are just redefining the display of map updates. I need to try a separate install of that to see exactly what they do, I'm not sure it's what I want as I can easily control the reveal of the "cheats" fairly well on my own and still have the benefit of the tools if I want to use them. For this video, it was particularly helpful to be able to check my work after doing the TMA plot.
Another great explanation on something new! 👍 I'm tired of watching arcade "tutorials" filled with markers! 🤦♂You're showing us how the game really should be played! Now, one thing that I couldn't stop thinking...(and this may be hard to explain here, but I'll try) Is it always the case that the ship will be moving away from you where the lines start to get close together? Because on the example before the last one, I was imagining the real course as it was in reality, before you actually showed, using the "cheat"... for the simple reason that, to me, the interpretation could actually go both ways! Meaning, you though of a SW-NE direction, but the 2 "close lines", for me, meant the opposite, NW-SE with the ship coming towards me. I don't know if that was clear, but I feel like the 2 "closer lines" could actually mean the opposite of what we're thinking, as they mean the enemy ship "is not moving much". Regardless, thank you so much for another class, this was amazing!!! 👍👍👍
hehe TMA station was my favorite in sub command
it is funny how everyone put the dials in different positions. I haven't seen any youtuber have them the same.
Frankly, there is no good place to put them. The UI in this game is a bit the travesty. 🙄 The UI has a tendency to get in the way far too frequently.
Fantastic video 😃
The one thing that will throw off your calculations is if the contact changes course, it does happen.
Might have happened in the third example, where you calculated a course of NE and it turned out the course was SE, I wonder where that ship was going anyway, Rotterdam?
I still play with visual map contacts on (yes I still need my training wheels), and last night south of Ireland a convoy of 26 ships changed course from 20D to 75D, a little later a single steamer heading NE decided to go SE.
It happens, I suspect it probably didn’t happen in my examples. I am a little skeptical now of the hydro bearing matching the compass after the sub has been left to drift though. I have some ideas on other TMA methods, they are just a tad more complicated, but would take drift error out of the picture.
*Removed my theory why the second sonar contact measurements were way off. I was wrong*
I have very limited submarine, so I might be completely wrong here, but instead of 'wasting' an hour just gathering information, would it not be much simpler to just plot the course of the sub in the direction of the sonar contact at reasonably high speed, then after 20-30 minutes do another sonar check. The drift in contact bearing and the strength of the sonar contact should give a hint of any needed course corrections for an intercept. The information gained will be rough, but will get better as you get closer. This is my theory, could be completely wrong.
XL Jedi redraws the bearing circle every time he takes a bearing, so that would mean it is drift corrected right?
I tend to agree with your assessment on using the hydro more as a directional indicator and doing basically almost exactly what you say. I tend to view it more as there is a ship within 100km and I can just get a general read on which direction to lead the target a bit and move in that direction 10-20km and look again. I don't use the 4-bearing method very much in practice.
@@ArjanSchaeffer You are correct. My bad. I was too focused on the range line plotted at the second and third bearing.
Then I have no idea why the second contact measurements were off by that much :-)
@@bricktopperheadon5490 I typically plot along the original course line just to see how much if any heading drift has occurred. 🤔
@@ArjanSchaeffer That is what I would *assume* to be correct. Now whether or not the game is goofing it somehow as if the hydro bearing reported doesn't notice the drift has occurred, that could be causing some problems.
Is it possible to figure out a rough estimate of range actually using the hydrophone? I've messed around with it but there are a bunch of knobs and I don't know exactly what they do.
Also, I hate the weird tllt of the map. I see no reason why they coded it that way.
I turn the +/- volume on the right all the way up. And the other black knob, crank that so the inner dial wraps all the way around to the right. Then if you can still hear a faint contact noise on the short range wavelength, you are about 5-8km away and you should be close enough to spot targets at periscope depth.
I don't know if I'm just unlucky, or suffering from a confirmation bias, but to me it seems that freighters change course too often for the effort this requires. I just trust my radioman and his black magic.
@@marcelocasimiroqueirozecos5184 you raise a valid point
I mean, im not an expert on this but logically it seems to me that you wouldn't do a 4 bearing analysis once and determine the target course from 4-5 hours away and then just set and forget your course. You'd constantly update it with new lines at equal and shorter than 20 minute intervals to get better accuracy. Longer intervals like this are convenient and good enough in most cases for the game's purposes but if I understood it better I would probably also not be using the stationary ownship method in the first place because of the requirement to stop moving for some time and then changing course to get another crossover. I'd use one for our ship being in motion. But when I looked this up the only good pdf I could find on the topic required the use of parallel lines and it started to get annoying to try to achieve in the game with the tools we have and the map being the way it is. So I gave up on the idea. But if our Jedi Master here makes a video on it I'd watch. More than once 😅
@@grimnar6725 Now that we have a baseline on what the 4-Bearing method is, we can use the concepts learned in more practical ways, and also keep our ship moving. I'll post some follow-up patrol videos. I like the "course-finder" gadget that I'm using and I'm still experimenting a bit on a standardized hydro-hunting method, but it most certainly does not rely on sitting still.
I found the last bearing video that actually didnt work!!! is over complicated and also depends if the contact is moving away or closer or not at all.
You doing these bearings wrong dude. When you are trying to calculate course direction you need to place imaginary points along your bearing lines either the first or second bearing depending on what method you use as there are a number of them and then place parallel lines along the other bearings to then line up the points with each other. For instance if you made a point1 somewhere halfway along bearing 2 you then run parallel lines along bearing 1 and 3 from that point that cross the opposite bearing, so a parallel line from point1 on bearing2 to bearing3 would intersect bearing 1 and vice versa and then from the intersect points, say x1 where it intersects bearing1 along the bearing 3 parallel and where it intersects bearing 3 along the bearing 1 parallel, say x2 you line up x1 with x2 it should give you a general direction and distance which should be equal. I dont explain it well but there is a guide on steam. Dont worry about this so called if its a wider gap from one bearing to another its either moving away or towards you. If you use your parrallel lines alongside your bearings and points it gives you a general course until you take your fourth bearing which will give you your true course and distance within a certain range ofc as its never going to be 100% accurate as you have different elements of the ocean to contend with like weather, currents etc.
But the way I see you do it is you just have your 3 bearings and try to use the compass to work out which direction its going. It dont work like that. You are on the right track but you are missing some steps. Oh and also, once you get your 3rd bearing start getting on the move as you can do the rest like 4th bearing etc while in motion. I noticed that after you got your 3rd bearings you still sat stationary still working out your other bearings.
Nah, I'm just doing them different than what you've seen in other videos. The goal, regardless of parallel lines or circles, or whatever, is to find the course line with equal lengths between the bearings. You could do the parallel method and get the same exact course based on the bearings that I plotted. I put the bearings in an electronic maneuvering board and got the same exact TC line that I plotted. Now what is kinda interesting, is that if I would not have redrawn the compass to account for the sub "drifting" I would've gotten a course that was exactly equal to the actual TC. So now I'm wondering about whether or not that sub drift needs to be accounted for? I might try drawing the initial compass and then just not correcting for it as the new bearings are given to see if that is what causes the strange variance? But if it's doing that, I would consider it a bug that needs to be fixed.
For the avoidance of doubt, here's an overlay plot of that example in the video where the TC was way off the actual. In this plot, I use the parallel line method to do the same thing that I do with the circles. You basically get the same result:
www.xl-logic.com/Uboat/QA/UBOAT_4bearing_1_20240901.jpg
@@xljedi2335 just something I was thinking about and could be WAY off... but how accurate do we know the cheat is..? I know we assume it plots directly to where the target is, but is it sometimes also off? We never made actual contact (watching at 1:04 now)
@@ArjanSchaeffer It tends to be pretty perfect. Particularly if you are at a standstill and just watching it update. If it were giving a goofy response, you'd see it bouncing all over the place, which can happen sometimes when Ownship is moving and it tries to plot an intercept as opposed to the ships actual location.
@@xljedi2335 no out then... already took to the internet to find a good refence piece to get to full knowledge on the thing. Thanks for making it an interesting puzzle 🤔☺